A thought experiment: How many VMCs equal a class?

[Xuldarinar]

Lets say a character advances through the Expert NPC class but picks a VMC at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level, gaining its 3rd level ability at each point. At 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th they gain the 7th level ability of each VMC respectively. At 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th, they gain the 11th level abilities. At 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th... then again at 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th. This route does mean they gain an ability at each level, but no cap stone. What tier would this most likely be? What if the character drew from the Warrior or Adept NPC class instead? Given any of the three NPC classes, which secondary classes would you pick?

If none of these make a character that could function properly in a party (Without being one to overshadow others in a traditional party [Assume: 1 Cleric, 1 Rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Wizard], or be a burden.), what adjustments would need made to make such a character sufficient?

[Hazrond]

Excuse me sir, you forgot the BEST NPC Class :smalltongue:

Aristocrat VMC Witch Rogue Summoner Alchemist

Level
Class Features


1
Witches Familiar (Using the Mauler archetype)


2
Trapfinding


3
Summon Monster


4
Alchemy


5
Hex (Slumber)


6
Sneak Attack 1d6


7
Bombs


8
Eidolon


9
Cantrip (Detect Poison)


10
Evasion


11
Mutagen


12
Additional Summons


13
Improved Hex (Healing)


14
Uncanny Dodge


15
Swift Poisoning


16
Shield Ally


17
Major Hex (Animal Skin)


18
Improved Uncanny Dodge


19
Poison Immunity


20
Aspect

[Ignatius Flamel]

Hmm....

VMC(Barbarian) for Rage;
VMC(Rogue) for 4d6 Sneak Atttack and Trapfinding/Evasion/Improved Uncanny Dodge
VMC(Cleric(Feather Domain)) for Channel Energy and an Animal Companion
VMC(Wizard(Divination(Foresight))) for Familiar and School powers

[Florian]

Lets say a character advances through the Expert NPC class but picks a VMC at 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level, gaining its 3rd level ability at each point. At 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th they gain the 7th level ability of each VMC respectively. At 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th, they gain the 11th level abilities. At 13th, 14th, 15th, and 16th... then again at 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th. This route does mean they gain an ability at each level, but no cap stone. What tier would this most likely be? What if the character drew from the Warrior or Adept NPC class instead? Given any of the three NPC classes, which secondary classes would you pick?

If none of these make a character that could function properly in a party (Without being one to overshadow others in a traditional party [Assume: 1 Cleric, 1 Rogue, 1 Fighter, 1 Wizard], or be a burden.), what adjustments would need made to make such a character sufficient?

VMC does not actually change the Tier. Even a VMC Wizard lacks the crucial element: Spells.

[khadgar567]

so basically expert version of jack of all trades master of none

[Psyren]

VMC does not actually change the Tier. Even a VMC Wizard lacks the crucial element: Spells.

It can however add a companion (e.g. AC, familiar, eidolon or domain that grants similar) which can raise a low class' tier. A Warrior or Aristocrat with an Eidolon (for a flying mount, skills, flanking buddy etc.) is higher than said class without one.

[Florian]

It can however add a companion (e.g. AC, familiar, eidolon or domain that grants similar) which can raise a low class' tier. A Warrior or Aristocrat with an Eidolon (for a flying mount, skills, flanking buddy etc.) is higher than said class without one.

If we go with the Tier definitions: Not really. Upgraded economy of actions actually doesn´t help unless it can really be brought to bear in a meaningful way. That´s simply two lackluster combatants instead of one.

[Xuldarinar]

If we go with the Tier definitions: Not really. Upgraded economy of actions actually doesn´t help unless it can really be brought to bear in a meaningful way. That´s simply two lackluster combatants instead of one.


Perhaps, but i am not talking about just VMC. Im talking about the tier of a character with several secondary classes (modified as discussed in the original post) in place of standard class features, and full availability of feats rather than trading them away for extra class features.

[Psyren]

If we go with the Tier definitions: Not really. Upgraded economy of actions actually doesn´t help unless it can really be brought to bear in a meaningful way. That´s simply two lackluster combatants instead of one.

You didn't read my post. Companions can add a lot more than combat. Movement modes let you overcome whole new challenges (like being able to fly over a city wall/chasm), and eidolons/familiars can be configured to solve skill-based challenges, like infiltrating a fortress unseen. All of those increase the number of challenges the player can solve solo and without additional wealth, which gives them a boost both in JaronK's original measurement and in the Same Game Test.

[Florian]

Perhaps, but i am not talking about just VMC. Im talking about the tier of a character with several secondary classes (modified as discussed in the original post) in place of standard class features, and full availability of feats rather than trading them away for extra class features.

So do I. And the simple thing is, even free VMCs do not break the "Glass Ceiling" between the tiers because they don´t offer the options necessary t do so.
Don´t get me wrong here: VMC will upgrade efficiency of a class in a big way and can be a great multiplier for the right base class. But for that, something to multiply must be there in the basic steps.

Your example Expert must get one VMC to start and then get a second VMC to multiply with, let´s say Fighter and Cavalier, and even then is still stuck to "doing one thing right".

[Gnaeus]

I think it clearly changes tier. There is clearly a hard cap of T3, because nothing suggested compares with 9th level spells.

Warrior is T6. Warrior + VMC rogue, barbarian, fighter, alchemist is probably at least equal to a fighter. Somewhere in high T5/low t4

Adept is T4 Adept+Druid, witch, summoner, bard, sitting on his flying mount, singing, putting enemies to sleep while his familiar sits on a flying eidolon UMDing a wand looks like a solid T3 to me.

[Zanos]

So do I. And the simple thing is, even free VMCs do not break the "Glass Ceiling" between the tiers because they don´t offer the options necessary t do so.
Don´t get me wrong here: VMC will upgrade efficiency of a class in a big way and can be a great multiplier for the right base class. But for that, something to multiply must be there in the basic steps.

Your example Expert must get one VMC to start and then get a second VMC to multiply with, let´s say Fighter and Cavalier, and even then is still stuck to "doing one thing right".
That isn't how tiers work. A tier 3 character is capable of doing a variety of things well, so adding more options to a character, even if they don't multiply previous choices, can bring a character to Tier 3. Force multiplication is actually a great way to stay in lower tiers. Barbarian and Gunslinger are Tier 4 regardless of how much more damage they do, because damage only gets you so far when you need to negotiate with the city guard. In this case we started with an Expert, which is Tier 5. Adding an AC, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, etc. etc. can raise the character to tier 3 with enough stuff, because eventually he becomes capable of doing a variety of things quite well.

This isn't the case for Tier 1 or 2, due to the definition of those tiers. You most definitely need spellcasting to break the ceiling on Tier 3, and at that point it probably overshadows everything else the character can do.

[Xuldarinar]

Im not sure what I'd mix together. I think I'd want to build something around having VMC Sorcerer (impossible) as one of them.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

You know, I never thought about this, but this could be a good way to build NPCs. They have some specialisation but won't outshine the PCs, generally speaking. Plus they get to be similar in level to the PCs while doing all that, so they're pretty sturdy. Expert plus rogue, cop. Warrior plus barbarian, hooligan. Aristocrat plus bard, composer. Commomer plus ranger, lumberjack. Expert plus ranger, hunter. Warrior plus ranger, scout. Anything plus cleric, monk or paladin, any member of the clergy. The possibilities are (semi-) endless. And as a bonus: less feats to pick!

It could even make for a fun (low-magic) campaign. Or they could be used for DMPCs, if there is one skillset the party badly needs. Adept-cleric, expert-rogue...

I don't think these will increase the tier-rating of the characters that much. The new skillset is too barren to really make the characters good at several new things. But with the right skills and feats and a general adaption of the character concept they could be pretty competent in one or two field. So they'd go from a tier six (those that were tier six to begin with) to a low five maybe.

As for multiple VMC's, that might just become a bit of a mess with some combinations. But say you get some that even just sort of complement each other, rogue, ranger and fighter or something, then 3 of them might equal a class. Meaning: the character is now a decent tier five or even a low tier four combination. Especially since you stop losing feats after the second VMC. To keep up with full casters in the second half of the game no amount will be enough. Sure, it'd be a fun attempt at building the "god martial", but the emphasis is on attempt.