Optimizing a Wizard: Preferred Feat Order and Higher Level Spells

[Ghost Nappa]

I am playing a High Elf Diviner Wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=588461) with a group of friends (we just hit Level 3) with 8 STR / 19 DEX / 12 CON / 19 INT / 11 WIS / 8 CHA in a party with a Dragonborn Paladin, a High Elf Rogue, a Rock Gnome Druid, and a Dragonborn Barbarian.

I like to plan out what I'm doing in advance, and while I'm pretty sure we'll hit Level 4, there's likely going to be a point where we stop playing and don't get to say Level 10 or 14 because that's how most campaigns go.

This raises the question of what feats are most valuable and the ones I should pick up the earliest. My character is written as a sort of Magical Girl Nancy Drew and I'm having difficulty figuring out which one is the most valuable to me. It's not really something discussed in class guides, but as part of a living, breathing game, you can't get all of them at once.

I plan to go Straight Wizard, and the things I've been considering are the following:

Lucky; (I already have some ability to control rolls and this makes it increasingly ridiculous.)
Observant; (More Perception and Investigation are both good in general and in tone with the character.)
Skilled; (Acrobatics, Stealth, Sleight of Hand) Extremely High DEX but I don't have any of the skills. Fits the
DEX + 1, INT + 1; (Cap out in the primary and a secondary stat. Higher Spell DCs, better AC, higher initiative, better skills...)
WIS +2 (Raise a secondary stat. This is admittedly, the one I'm most sure should be last. The bonus it confers isn't as impactful as Observant because of the odd value I have; both of them will increase it from a Neutral +0 to a +1 WIS; while Observant as other benefits. This is the one I intend to save for Level 19. It's also not as important as maxing out INT and DEX or the abilities conferred by Skilled and Lucky.)


To phrase my question more formally, in what order should I take what I've selected to best strengthen my character; and is there something I'm overlooking that would better strengthen my character.

Edit: Here is a more current looking explanation of my thoughts:


Level 4: Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness
FEAT: Lucky
New Cantrip: Mending

Level 5: Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell
Firebolt DMG: 2d10
Prof Bonus -> +3

Level 6: Sleet Storm, Clairvoyance
Class Feature: Expert Divination

Level 7: Polymorph, Arcane Eye

Level 8: Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
FEAT: Observant (INT)

Level 9: Scrying, Wall of Stone
Prof Bonus: -> +4

Level 10: Cone of Cold, Rary's Telepathic Bond
New Cantrip: Prestidigation
Class Feature: The Third Eye

Level 11: True Seeing, Mass Suggestion
Firebolt DMG: 3d10

Level 12: Globe of Invulnerability, Programmed Illusion
FEAT: War Caster

Level 13: Mordakainen's Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift
Prof. Bonus -> +5

Level 14: Forcecage, Etherealness

Level 15: Mind Blank, Maze

Level 16: Dominate Monster, Sunburst
ASI: +1 DEX, +1 CON

Level 17: Foresight, Wish
Firebolt DMG: 4d10
Prof. Bonus -> +6

Level 18: Time Stop, True Polymorph

Class Feature: Spell Mastery

Level 19: Prismatic Wall, Teleport
FEAT: Resilient (CON)

Level 20: Meteor Swarm, Reverse Gravity
Class Feature: Signature Spells

[hymer]

If you're going to be into Concentration combat spells, then you're missing Resilient (Con) and Warcaster from your list.
From your list, I'd cap Int first, and Dex is pretty amazing, so makes perfect sense to put the other point there.
Skilled at level 4 would net you +2 to three skills. You have to use them a lot for this to be felt. If you don't mind the abruptness, I'd save that until later, when the bump to skills is more noticeable.
Personally I wouldn't touch Wis. You're already proficient in those saves and in Perception, and you're not taking any Wis skills with Skilled, so it doesn't seem a real priority to you.
For Observant, make sure your DM is going to use passive checks before taking it!
As for Lucky, well, I'd see how it goes in the game before deciding to take it. As you mention, you already have Portent (IIR the name C) to deal with bad luck. If you find you only just get it used, Lucky would be overkill.

[Ghost Nappa]

If you're going to be into Concentration combat spells, then you're missing Resilient (Con) and Warcaster from your list.
From your list, I'd cap Int first, and Dex is pretty amazing, so makes perfect sense to put the other point there.

Skilled at level 4 would net you +2 to three skills. You have to use them a lot for this to be felt. If you don't mind the abruptness, I'd save that until later, when the bump to skills is more noticeable.

Personally I wouldn't touch Wis. You're already proficient in those saves and in Perception, and you're not taking any Wis skills with Skilled, so it doesn't seem a real priority to you.

For Observant, make sure your DM is going to use passive checks before taking it!

As for Lucky, well, I'd see how it goes in the game before deciding to take it. As you mention, you already have Portent (IIR the name C) to deal with bad luck. If you find you only just get it used, Lucky would be overkill.

No, I'm playing one of Treatmonk's Wizards. I'm trying not go anywhere near melee or get attacked at all.

The reason I picked WIS is because INT and DEX get maxed by the other one and STR and CHA are dump stats. The only other stat is CON, and I haven't been attacked once yet. I have two very potent meat shields and the only time an enemy entered melee range with me, it immediately died.

I suppose I should mention that I already have proficiency in Insight, Perception, Arcana, History, and Investigation. I wanted to put better numbers into WIS but I rolled 18, 17, 12, 11, 9, 9. Something had to give.

I have played with this DM before and I know she does passive Perception rolls.

I've used Portent's ability to change rolls in every session we've had so far so I find I'm actually down a roll quite often. They gel really well together and I don't know what else I would pick besides Lucky. Res (CON) is less powerful I feel and I can use the rolls from Portent and Lucky to deal with Concentration issues in a pinch. Not to mention it gives me an odd Constitution value, and I hate having those in non-dump stats. I would feel it necessary to probably change the WIS + 2 to something else to compensate, and I don't know how I feel about that.

Edit: I added a URL to a copy of the character sheet if you want to read it and see what the character already looks like in more depth.

[Vogonjeltz]

This raises the question of what feats are most valuable and the ones I should pick up the earliest. My character is written as a sort of Magical Girl Nancy Drew and I'm having difficulty figuring out which one is the most valuable to me. It's not really something discussed in class guides, but as part of a living, breathing game, you can't get all of them at once.

Congratulations on those rolls; as to what to pick...what spells are you using/planning on using?

Do you actually need to increase your save DCs or spellcasting modifier for example, or are you primarily picking spells that function regardless of your stats?

Thematically, assuming stats aren't actually important to your spell choices, I'd go with Observant first. If your stats are meaningful, and you can't bear to be without it, do the stat increases first.

[Ghost Nappa]

Congratulations on those rolls; as to what to pick...what spells are you using/planning on using?

Do you actually need to increase your save DCs or spellcasting modifier for example, or are you primarily picking spells that function regardless of your stats?

Thematically, assuming stats aren't actually important to your spell choices, I'd go with Observant first. If your stats are meaningful, and you can't bear to be without it, do the stat increases first.
I'll bold ones that use a DC or a modifier.
Planned Spell Choices:

Level 4: Mirror Image, Blindness/Deafness
FEAT: ?
New Cantrip: Mending

Level 5: Hypnotic Pattern, Counterspell
Firebolt DMG: 2d10
Prof Bonus -> +3

Level 6: Sleet Storm, Clairvoyance
Class Feature: Expert Divination

Level 7: Polymorph, Arcane Eye

Level 8: Greater Invisibility, Dimension Door
FEAT: ?

Level 9: Scrying, Wall of Stone
Prof Bonus: -> +4

Level 10: Cone of Cold, Rary's Telepathic Bond
New Cantrip: Prestidigation
Class Feature: The Third Eye

Level 11: True Seeing, Mass Suggestion
Firebolt DMG: 3d10

Level 12: Globe of Invulnerability, Programmed Illusion
FEAT: ?

Level 13: Mordakainen's Magnificent Mansion, Plane Shift
Prof. Bonus -> +5

Level 14: Forcecage, Etherealness

Level 15: Mind Blank, Maze

Level 16: Dominate Monster, Sunburst
FEAT: ?

Level 17: Foresight, Wish
Firebolt DMG: 4d10
Prof. Bonus -> +6

Level 18: Time Stop, True Polymorph

Class Feature: Spell Mastery

Level 19: ?, ?
FEAT: WIS+2

Level 20: ?, ?
Class Feature: Signature Spells

I haven't actually figured out what spells I'd pick at levels 19 and 20, but I'm trying to avoid picking a lot of evocation spells and focus on control/debuff/support.

I believe I only plan on picking up two more Evocation spells for attacking at mid/high levels.

[Specter]

As the first gut said, Resilient (CON). Regardless of being in melee or not, the DM WILL damage you, and you don't want that concentration to go bad. Also, poisons, necromancy, cold, heat, Blindness, Reduce, Shatter, Polymorph and some other guys called, they want you to make a save.

As for the rest, the selection is good (Lucky in particular is awesome for diviners).

[Ghost Nappa]

As the first gut said, Resilient (CON). Regardless of being in melee or not, the DM WILL damage you, and you don't want that concentration to go bad. Also, poisons, necromancy, cold, heat, Blindness, Reduce, Shatter, Polymorph and some other guys called, they want you to make a save.

As for the rest, the selection is good (Lucky in particular is awesome for diviners).

What would you suggest then? Even if I replaced Res - Con with something else, when would I take it and what would I replace it with? Skilled and WIS+2 are the only real picks to drop, and I'm not sure it would be able to come online until much later. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to take Lucky at 4. If I do take Res - Con, the +1 Con is wasted unless I modify another feat/as I to get another +1 con. Is Profiency in a saving throw really worth the opportunity cost? If I had done 11 con and 12 Wis there would be no question, but I wanted a con bonus because of concentration and Squishiness concerns.

[Erbrand]

In regards to Skilled, it seems to me like you can answer those skills with magic and save the ASI.

Acrobatics can be good for dealing with jumping over things or escaping from grapples, but something like a Fly spell or a different control option can prevent those situations from happening, or give you another way to respond. (Do Wizards get Freedom of Movement? I don't remember)

Stealth is good for sneaking around, but Invisibility or Polymorph can make you just as unnoticed.

Sleight of Hand seems like a really niche pick, and I'd be interested in hearing why you want it. Especially with a rogue in the party, this seems like a skill someone else can use.


So ultimately, if you replace taking Skilled with Resilient (Con), you can make the later ASI you questioned into something like +1 Con +1 Wis, and round both of them out for even numbers. I would also personally try to make room in the build for War Caster, perhaps taking that feat instead of skilled and delaying Resilient (Con) until later. This leaves you with an odd Con score, but overall you'll have low HP anyway, and you're really looking for that sweet proficiency in saves.

Edit: Looking back at your main post, I would personally consider dropping Observant in favor of the previously mentioned concentration feats, but it's still a good feat and worth considering.

[JeffreyGator]

Doesn't observant allow you to bump either wis or int?

IIRC I would use it to bump int and take it at 4th especially if your DM uses passive checks very much. It fits in very well with the nancy drew feel that described. You just notice everything.

[Specter]

What would you suggest then? Even if I replaced Res - Con with something else, when would I take it and what would I replace it with? Skilled and WIS+2 are the only real picks to drop, and I'm not sure it would be able to come online until much later. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to take Lucky at 4. If I do take Res - Con, the +1 Con is wasted unless I modify another feat/as I to get another +1 con. Is Profiency in a saving throw really worth the opportunity cost? If I had done 11 con and 12 Wis there would be no question, but I wanted a con bonus because of concentration and Squishiness concerns.

I would suggest:

4 - Lucky OR Resilient
8 - The one you didn't pick up there
12 - Observant (to max INT)
16 - +1DX +1CO
20 - Go crazy!

[Ghost Nappa]

I would suggest:

4 - Lucky OR Resilient
8 - The one you didn't pick up there
12 - Observant (to max INT)
16 - +1DX +1CO
20 - Go crazy!


In regards to Skilled, it seems to me like you can answer those skills with magic and save the ASI.

Acrobatics can be good for dealing with jumping over things or escaping from grapples, but something like a Fly spell or a different control option can prevent those situations from happening, or give you another way to respond. (Do Wizards get Freedom of Movement? I don't remember)

Stealth is good for sneaking around, but Invisibility or Polymorph can make you just as unnoticed.

Sleight of Hand seems like a really niche pick, and I'd be interested in hearing why you want it. Especially with a rogue in the party, this seems like a skill someone else can use.


So ultimately, if you replace taking Skilled with Resilient (Con), you can make the later ASI you questioned into something like +1 Con +1 Wis, and round both of them out for even numbers. I would also personally try to make room in the build for War Caster, perhaps taking that feat instead of skilled and delaying Resilient (Con) until later. This leaves you with an odd Con score, but overall you'll have low HP anyway, and you're really looking for that sweet proficiency in saves.

Edit: Looking back at your main post, I would personally consider dropping Observant in favor of the previously mentioned concentration feats, but it's still a good feat and worth considering.

I didn't think I would be so convinced by this but your right.

I do think I would rather have Observant before Res though.

I'm thinking:
4 - Lucky
8 - Observant (INT)
12 - Res (CON)
16 - DEX+1, CON+1
19 - I don't know. Is there any other feat that boosts WIS? I'd really like to get that to 12 at least.

[Slipperychicken]

Since your intelligence is already near max, I'd probably go with
4- War Caster (most concentration checks are DC 10; this drops your chance to fail from 40% to 16%. Also you can do AoOs with your damage cantrip)
8- Resilient(Wisdom) just because those saves are so common. Also helps your perception a little. If your DM never uses Wis saves, you can delay or skip this.
12- Int+1, Dex+1
16- Lucky
19- Are you even getting up here?

I think lucky is a little overrated on a wizard because your important stuff doesn't hinge on your own rolls anyway. I think observant is also overrated unless your DM is really fond of passive perception.

Also, I don't think your hp are such a high concern if you have 17 AC with mage armor, +4 to dex saves, and keep out of harm's way. Just stay away from bad guys and don't touch things that might be trapped.

EDIT: Also, in terms of your concentration saves, I think war caster would be better for you for most of the game. For a DC 10 and +4 proficiency, resilient(con) brings you down to 20% to fail (rolling +5 no advantage), while war caster (you'd be rolling at +1 and advantage) gets you down to 16%. If you expect to frequently take more than 20 damage in one go, such that the concentration DC is over 10, then resilient(con) would usually serve you better.

[Ghost Nappa]

Since your intelligence is already near max, I'd probably go with
4- War Caster (most concentration checks are DC 10; this drops your chance to fail from 40% to 16%. Also you can do AoOs with your damage cantrip)
8- Resilient(Wisdom) just because those saves are so common. Also helps your perception a little. If your DM never uses Wis saves, you can delay or skip this.
12- Int+1, Dex+1
16- Lucky
19- Are you even getting up here?

I think lucky is a little overrated on a wizard because your important stuff doesn't hinge on your own rolls anyway. I think observant is also overrated unless your DM is really fond of passive perception.

Also, I don't think your hp are such a high concern if you have 17 AC with mage armor, +4 to dex saves, and keep out of harm's way. Just stay away from bad guys and don't touch things that might be trapped.

EDIT: Also, in terms of your concentration saves, I think war caster would be better for you for most of the game. For a DC 10 and +4 proficiency, resilient(con) brings you down to 20% to fail (rolling +5 no advantage), while war caster (you'd be rolling at +1 and advantage) gets you down to 16%. If you expect to frequently take more than 20 damage in one go, such that the concentration DC is over 10, then resilient(con) would usually serve you better.

Resilient (Wisdom) is redundant. Wizards are already proficient with Wisdom saving throws. It would be better to do WIS +1, X +1.

My DM intends to get us to Level 20 because she's frustrated with how that never happens. Time will tell.

[Slipperychicken]

Resilient (Wisdom) is redundant. Wizards are already proficient with Wisdom saving throws. It would be better to do WIS +1, X +1

Good catch. I guess you can skip that feat then. So I'll revise it.
4- War Caster
8- Int+1, Dex+1
12- Lucky or +2 Con
16- whichever you didn't take at 12

[Ghost Nappa]

I think I think I've gotten a better sense of what I'm looking for:

Level 4: Lucky. I won't apologize for loving the dumb crazy roll manipulations. This can be used for offense and defense and allows me to save Portent for rolls that my allies are making. I haven't felt pressured enough to put anything combat related up here; most of the campaign so far has been fairly social and explorative. We had one encounter with some Piercers and another with some Kobolds. That's so far 1 combat/level and I don't think prioritizing combat ability over something that is a catch-all utility is immediately helpful.

Level 8: Observant (INT). I originally intended to pick this up for the Wisdom bonus instead, but JeffreyGator is right; Observant can be used to buff INT. Passive Perception is non-trivial in the games this DM runs, and it really does help bring out the Nancy Drew Magic Detective theme.

Level 12: War Caster. SlipperyChicken blinded me with Math, and I can't not respect that. I originally didn't want to even consider this (opting in favor of Skilled, because, Detective work) but Erbrand isn't wrong. I already plan on picking up Greater Invisibility to help the Rogue, and it makes more sense to make the Rogue better at that then to try and take that job myself - even if the idea of going full Shawn Spencer appeals to me. I think the advantage granted by War Caster would still be more helpful to me than the bonus from Resilient (CON) due to already having Lucky and Portent. While I obviously can't use them to solve everything, they both benefit from me rolling more die than trying to help raise one dice roll. I'm pretty sure my DM isn't going to try to kill me, and I think I'll have enough ways to avoid death by this point.

Level 16: DEX+1, WIS +1 I think I said before that I hate odd numbers in non-dump stats, and this is my solution to this. Better saves on two of the most common, better AC, better skills, better Initiative.

Level 19: Resilient (CON). Hear me out. I originally intended to follow Specter's suggestion and go DEX +1, CON +1 at Level 16. But Resilient (WIS) is redundant and unnecessary and I'm already taking Observant at Level 8, so there isn't a feat in the PHB that increases WIS and adds some bonus effect too. I could go for WIS+1, STR/CHA +1; but is wasteful. So instead, I made 16 the WIS boost, and 19 is the final CON boost. There are only three feats that boost CON: Durable (eh), Tavern Brawler (why the hell am I punching things now?), and Resilient (CON). I know I said not to take it before, but this is a +7 bonus to CON saves and 19 HP. At this point, DEX and INT are already maxed, STR and CHA are just as useless as they've ever been. The only other stat to think about is WIS. WIS is going to be an even 12 going into Level 19, and there aren't any other feats that will raise it. That means I'm comparing a +1 bonus to WIS saves, Insight, and Perception for +7 to CON saves and 19 HP. That's a pretty easy choice to make, imo. If anything, the real decision is whether or not this should come before or after DEX/WIS +1 is the only question I can think to raise, and I feel like the other two are more of a priority for me,but I suppose I have plenty of time to change that decision.

I feel pretty satisfied with how this turned out, but if anyone else has more comments I'll continue to discuss it.

I still don't know about the last four spells though. I feel confident in Prismatic Wall but I don't know about whether or not I should try to fill in gaps from earlier levels or stick to Level 9 spells for their harder to get nature.

[bid]

Level 12: War Caster.
Level 19: Resilient (CON).
Don't. Pick one, not both.

Resilient covers more ground (poison saves) and is better at high levels*. Your offhand is empty and you'll never get AoA since you are the prime target, making 2/3 warcaster useless.

* At level 13, resilient offers 85% vs warcaster's 84% (against DC10, with your Con12). After level 17, with your planned Con14, that's 95%.

[Specter]

Don't. Pick one, not both.

Resilient covers more ground (poison saves) and is better at high levels*. Your offhand is empty and you'll never get AoA since you are the prime target, making 2/3 warcaster useless.

* At level 13, resilient offers 85% vs warcaster's 84% (against DC10, with your Con12). After level 17, with your planned Con14, that's 95%.

This. Unless you're hoping dudes will give you attacks of opportunity (which they probably won't).

[Ghost Nappa]

Don't. Pick one, not both.

Resilient covers more ground (poison saves) and is better at high levels*. Your offhand is empty and you'll never get AoA since you are the prime target, making 2/3 warcaster useless.

* At level 13, resilient offers 85% vs warcaster's 84% (against DC10, with your Con12). After level 17, with your planned Con14, that's 95%.

There isn't much else to pick at that level. Like I said, it's a toss between Res - Con, Durable, and Tavern Brawler, or a straight ASI. The first three give me more than the last, Tavern Brawler doesn't mesh well. The only other choice is Durable and I would prefer to not take the damage in the first place than heal it off afterwards.

You can tell me not to pick both, but if there isn't anything else to put in It's place, why not do it anyway?

[hymer]

You can tell me not to pick both, but if there isn't anything else to put in It's place, why not do it anyway?

From a purely Concentration save standpoint, having both is definitely an option. Whenever you take more than 21 damage (and you will - and the more damage you take, the more critical will the situation tend to be) the DC is higher than 10. Resilient gives you the raw bonus at high levels, while Warcaster helps insure against bad rolls at all levels. If you already have Lucky, Warcaster loses some of its Concentration save lustre, though.

[Ghost Nappa]

From a purely Concentration save standpoint, having both is definitely an option. Whenever you take more than 21 damage (and you will - and the more damage you take, the more critical will the situation tend to be) the DC is higher than 10. Resilient gives you the raw bonus at high levels, while Warcaster helps insure against bad rolls at all levels. If you already have Lucky, Warcaster loses some of its Concentration save lustre, though.

I can live with that at Level 19. It means Lucky can be used for other things.

I'm still not sure about Spell Selection though, so I've changed the title of the thread. I'm most concerned with those last two levels because I have never really had to deal with that level of power as a character. The farthest I've ever gone is 10 and that's because we started there.

[bid]

Durable
Not that one please. You already gain 2-7 hp per HD, a minimum of 2 won't help at all. Healer is your best choice in that direction, maybe better than Con ASI, tough somewhat far behind but still close enough.

Your initial plan was ok, but there are other interesting feats to fill up the last spot:
- your Dex/Int are so high you can keep them as is until level 12 at least
- 4 = lucky: good start
- 8 = observant/keen mind: a little weak, but either would get Int20 and have good RP potential
- 12 = resilient(Con): maybe earlier if you got hit too often
- 16 = Dex+1/Con+1: plugging those odd bits, I feel Con is more important.
- 19 = observant to plug Wis if you went keen mind, Con16, alert, healer or ritual caster (cleric) otherwise

By level 12 you should have a feel of what you need and RP might push you in an unexpected direction.