Start of Darkness - Discussion Thread (MARK ALL SPOILERS!)

[The Giant]

The Voice of Mod: Since people are starting to get their SoD preorders, I'm separating the Start of Darkness thread into two: one for discussion of the content, and one for discussion of ordering.

Please, please, PLEASE mark all spoilers for SoD in this thread! By that, we mean any information about the plot that is not common knowledge (i.e. it involves Redcloak and Xykon meeting). You can put general comments about how it made you feel, whether you liked it or not, etc., outside of spoiler tags.

For the uninformed, to use the spoiler function, do this:

Spoiler text goes here.[/spoiler ]

Without the space in the final tag. It looks like this:

[spoiler]Spoiler text goes here.

If you have trouble figuring it out, you can Quote this post and just look at how I did it.

Also, if you're reading this thread and haven't read SoD yet, you should assume that all spoilers in this thread are FOR SoD - so don't click on them!! If you ruin it for yourself, you have only you to blame!

Thank you.

[Fighteer]

:xykon: Barky! You came back!

And much hilarity ensued.

While Xykon was a hoot, it was very interesting to watch Redcloak's character development. This story really is mostly about him, and it does answer many of the questions that have been raised about his motivations. I predict much additional fodder for the "is he justified in being evil" threads.

Okay, so now we know Xykon has a ring that makes him specifically immune to certain types of positive energy attacks. Does that mean that Roy's plan to use disruption against him in the Dungeon of Dorukan was doubly doomed to failure?

Also, I wonder if his little soul gem willl come into play at some point. It's just too good a plot device to leave dangling...

[BardicLasher]

Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.

Also, I'd just like to say that the joke at the bottom of page 91 really hit me in the face cause, well... **points to sig**

I wonder what Redcloak and Xykon's real names are...

[Fighteer]

Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.

If true, it would be horribly anticlimactic. Obviously, the whole history of the Gates wasn't written at that point, so it's a bit unfair to engage in revisionism, but wouldn't the OotS at least have found his ring in the dungeon loot? They did find the ring of wizardry, after all. Maybe he left the gem in his other robes...

But the question of what happened/will happen to the other members of the Order of the Scribble just got a giant leap forward, and it would be a shame to see it go unresolved.

And yes, that bit in the book does make your signature horribly ironic. Gotta love those crossover gags.

[SPoD]

OK, this book was fantastic. It had everything: it was funny, it was dramatic, it was informative. This is, I think, the best comic I've read in years.

I thought it was much better than On the Origin of PCs, too. Maybe less over-the-top comedy, but a much better story. Every scene leads up to that finale, giving you little pieces to show how the characters turn from one thing into another...wow.



Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.

I think its clear that, whether or not Xykon still has it, the two of them are still trapped in the gem. It answers the question, "Why not just rebuild the Gates?" too perfectly. Answer: Because the only two people who know how are dead and can't even be resurrected.

Besides, too much time is spent on it for it to be undone off-panel. It'll be back again someday.

Also, it really puts this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0372.html) into perspective...
because when I first read the part about Redcloak's extended lifespan, I thought, "Huh, why did he rant at Miko about being natural? He's as magically-altered as she is!" Then I got to the end, and realized that she touched a nerve: Redcloak feels guilty about his extended lifespan because it reminds him of Right-Eye, who didn't have it. That little tirade was his emotional reaction to remembering what he did (which I won't even say in a spoiler, it's just too important).

[chibibar]

unfortunately my answer about Xykon is a spoiler

Xykon tend to misplace things all the time. I presume that the gem is probably in another robe anyways or something :)

[WarriorTribble]

That was strange, I didn't expect arrogance to be the deciding factor in Xykon vs. Dorukon. Esp. considering what was at stake...

Edit: Oof... I'll never be able to laugh at Redcloak ever again. I mean heck everything he's done even the funny "ebil" moments was a form of overcompensation to prove to himself and Xykon he's not a bitch, and to show that all he's worked for isn't in vain.

[TheNovak]

Just got it an hour ago, and I just finished the color insert. Let me just say, holy crap this book is awesome.

Thank you, Rich.

EDIT: Just finished it. Holy crap.

My god, I don't even know where to begin. Poor Redcloak. Poor goblins in general. And goddamn Xykon. And...god.

The "butch and bitch" line was probably the cruelist, most heart-jerking thing I've ever read. God, this book was unbelievably awesome. Mein gott. I need to go read it again.

Oh, and I think we know how the MitD will finally be revealed, now. I hope Redcloak will still be able to win, but...I think Xykon's officially proven himself to be THE Big Bad Guy.

This was just awesome.

[Kome]

Panel 9 on page 8 gave me goosebumps.

Pure awesome, Rich. Pure awesome.

[SavageWombat]

Did anyone else notice that Right-Eye is included in the board game?

Sort of, anyway. The Goblin Woodcutter card, with the axe, lace-up shirt and eyepatch. Of course, Rich gave him his foot back.

[Fitzclowningham]

Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.

[malakim2099]

Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.

Well, Xykon has said that it's just a mundane crown that he thought looked really cool (and apparently enables him to pick up barmaids).

Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.

:redcloak: No, I AM YOUR UNCLE!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :smalltongue:

[SavageWombat]

Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.


I was trying to figure out a way it could be Haley - polymorphed, I guess - but it's only been 3 years, so I call that unlikely at best.

[Fitzclowningham]

malakim:

LOL

[malakim2099]

A few other observations...



The intro was a thing of beauty, I think I laughed harder reading that than almost any other part of the book. And I did like that the first comic lets you know that yes, even at the age of eight or so, Xykon was an evil little bastard.

The S-Men were great, too. :smallamused:

Regarding Redcloak... yeah, I almost think he could have been LN. But I think the Dark One (gee, what a name for such an allegedly altruistic figure) has had a bit of whitewash on his own past too. I'm almost tempted to try and make him into an actual deity, with Domains and everything. Either that or Redcloak is a Cloistered Cleric from Unearthed Arcana, which would account for the fact he never packs weapons, never wears armor, and relies heavily on spells. Oh, and he has insane levels of all knowledges.

And while Redcloak is a sympathetic figure of sorts... Xykon never is, ever. At best, you look at him like you would at Belkar doing something crazy evil yet twistedly funny. At worst, he's someone that I know my cleric of Pelor would like to introduce to a +5 holy sacred burst heavy mace. :smalltongue:

I did like that he was dim enough not to realize that trapping Lirian and Dorukan forever together is... actually /not/ a bad thing, to them.

I do hope that they show up again too, as well as Right-Eye's daughter. And it was also good to see why Roy grew up the way he did... Eugene was pretty much a D- as a father, I'm sorry to say. No wonder he grew up with issues.

But you know, for being a nigh-epic level elven druid, Lirian needed to work on the lore department. Surely she would know some BASIC things about undead... like, don't bother poisoning them, etc. Ah well.

And, frankly, I think I liked this line best...

:roach: It's just like if Nelson Mandela knew necromancy.

Peace!

[Max_Sinister]

Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.

But in the battle with Roy he claimed that he only has it to make himself look more badass. Of course, he could be lying. Why didn't the OOTS try to find out what it does?

[SPoD]

Hmm...in the climactic battle with Dorukan, Xykon cast 7 9th-level spells: Meteor Swarm, 5 Energy Drains, and a Soul Bind. I guess that would make him at least 20th level and put his charisma at 28. Maybe he gets a charisma boost from the crown? It would make the crownocracy more feasible, I guess.

Why does it have to be the crown? A Cloak of Charisma is a fairly standard magic item, and Xykon wears a cloak. Heck, he even doesn't get the cloak until he's old, supporting the idea that he scored it while levelling up.

A lich gets +2 Cha, so all he would need was a 26 Cha; an 18 plus increases at 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 would give him a 23, so he would only need +6, which is well within the range of a 32,000 gp magic item.


I did like that he was dim enough not to realize that trapping Lirian and Dorukan forever together is... actually /not/ a bad thing, to them.

I don't see it as being dim, per se, but as being completely disconnected from the idea of caring about another person. He can't conceive of wanting to be with someone in that way; it's an even further contrast with Right-Eye (who loves his family deeply), with Redcloak wavering between the two viewpoints.

I imagine Xykon laughing to himself that he's forcing them to spend eternity together, because to him, other people are either tools to be used or annoyances to be killed.

[One Skunk Todd]

Unless otherwise stated throughout the course of the comic, or by the Giant, I'd like to assume that the Soul Bind gem broke when Roy threw Xykon into the gate.

Except that...

The Snarl totally destroys souls. If it broke when(if?) it went into the gate then it seems like there's a good chance that Dorukan and Lirian were utterly destroyed.

I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.

[SPoD]

Except that...

I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.

He backpacked across Europe. You know, to really find himself.

In all seriousness, he probably went off to find and kill Serini Toormuck, since he ended up with her diary. I get the feeling that Xykon is going to turn out to be responsible for the disappearance and/or death of the entire Order of the Scribble.

[chibibar]

Except that...

The Snarl totally destroys souls. If it broke when(if?) it went into the gate then it seems like there's a good chance that Dorukan and Lirian were utterly destroyed.

I wonder if we'll ever find out where Xykon went off to for those 3 years.

Unless state otherwise, all items in the comic exist until it is told that is destroyed. That is how I view it. Since no one mention the soul gem, I'm sure Xykon still have it on him and somehow manage avoid being damage

[SavageWombat]

Unless state otherwise, all items in the comic exist until it is told that is destroyed. That is how I view it. Since no one mention the soul gem, I'm sure Xykon still have it on him and somehow manage avoid being damage

Or... Haley found a huge black gem and couldn't bring herself to share it with the group?

[Fitzclowningham]

Oooh, good point. It's got to be worth at least 30-40,000 gp.

[Poeir]

Good read, all told. I got my copy yesterday, and I had a bunch of other stuff to do, so I had to squeeze the reading in where I could. That said, it's spoileriffic.

I think it's great that human Xykon seemed potentially redeemable, though almost certainly would not (because he wouldn't put the effort into it), but as soon as he becomes a lich, he becomes extra vicious (as well as noticeably smarter). This particularly stands out when they get ahold of the Creature in the Darkness, and Xykon has a contingency plan for if Redcloak ever betrays him.

It also stood out that Redcloak isn't really a bad guy, he's just trying to stop having his people being taken advantage of. Perhaps in my next campaign world, goblins won't be evil.

Also, did Xykon's reaction to finding out he couldn't taste coffee any more remind anyone else of Metallo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallo)?

The "Redcloak and Right-Eye" running gag was hilarious, though I'd really like to know Right-Eye, Redcloak's, and, most of all, Xykon's real names. I suspect those are going to play a major plot point sometime down the line.

I also suspect that we're going to see a resurrected Order of the Scribble ally with the Order of the Stick.

[Porthos]

This is Delta-Upsilon-Mu??

I just got that. Arrrggggghhhh what a horrible pun! :smallyuk:

I loved it. :smalltongue:

Oh, I figured out that the elephant was supposed to be Dumbo right away. But the Call Identifier that the mouse gave? Didn't get that one until right now.

Glad to see you are keeping up your penchant for awful puns, Rich. :smalltongue:

[jscheibel]

as you say ...as well as noticeably smarter...

That was the single most interesting change when he turned lich. He went from rather mundane, rather foilable to very interesting, really hard to beat.

And it really was a very hard cut from the moment hes a lich.


I really wanted redcloak's deception to become apparent (that the snarl wouldn't be their tool but the dark ones.) I guess it keeps them together and keeps redcloak motivated but I was hoping for something more. I suppose it could be well known to xykon and he isn't letting on.

I also wanted to see them try and preform their ritual on Dorukan's gate or at least show them discovering that its locked down with the seal. though I guess its not necessary

[TheNovak]

Also, did Xykon's reaction to finding out he couldn't taste coffee any more remind anyone else of Metallo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallo)?

Hell yeah, it did! And that's awesome. Animated Superman's Metallo was an extremely compelling villain because of that, and it really makes Xykon even better. I mean, of course he went from "dumb and evil, but basically sane" to "outright friggin' psycho" after that! Guh. Just thinking about being totally numb like that gives me the chills.


I also suspect that we're going to see a resurrected Order of the Scribble ally with the Order of the Stick.

Yeah, I think we'll eventually get a broken crystal and some angry, epic-level heroes. Not for awhile, though...I think we'll see an Order of the Scrible-centered book before that happens.

[Porthos]

[NOTE::: This post does not pussyfoot around. It contains Major, MAJOR spoilers for Start of Darkness. HP6 ending level spoilers.

You. Have. Been. Warned. :smalltongue:

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Am I the only one....

Who isn't exactly feeling all awful for Redcloak at the end of the book? I only ask because I hear a lot of, "Poor Redcloak" or "Awww, I'm so rooting for Redcloak after what he went through in this book."

Well excuse me for not being all twisted in knots over a character who just frigging killed his OWN BROTHER. And for what? Because he is so blinded by his God's Plan that he can't think straight anymore. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I'm reminded of a certain character: :miko:

That's right. What Redcloak does in SoD is absolutely no different that what Miko does to Lord Shojo. Actually, that's not correct. What Redcloak does to Right-Eye is worse than what Miko did to Lord Shojo. At least Miko can claim to be bat<blank> crazy. Redcloak? He doesn't get that excuse. He committed murder with his eyes wide open.

And all of this for a god that, as Right-Eye points out, isn't really doing his utmost to help the Goblin People. In fact, Right-Eye did far more to help The Goblin Cause that Redcloak ever did.

Now please understand, I'm not trying to dump on Redcloak here. And I do feel sympathy at this plight. And I also hope he one day grows enough of a spine to be more like his brother. But I just want to make sure that in all of the sympathy we're pouring on Redcloak that we actually remember that he did all of this of his own free will.

As I said in the original thread, Redcloak is the Classical Greek Tragic Figure. He is blinded by (a quite justifiable) hatred and it leads him to make mistakes. And once he makes these mistakes, he compounds them because he is afraid to face up to them, rather than taking the harder road of admitting error (again, like a certain ex-Paladin we all know). And it doesn't help that the only person that he associates with regularly is one of the most evil people to ever grace the comic.

But make no mistake. All of Redcloak's sins are his own darn fault.

Fortunately for him, he has shown the glimmer of self-realization. If he can actually continue to grow (like we saw in the Siege of Azure City Arc), then perhaps he can actually face his own fear and become a better goblin for it. But until he learns to let go of his hatred of humans, and focus on the betterment of the Goblin Species for the right reasons, I fear that he will continue to make the wrong choices.

Now all of this being said, I do feel some sympathy for Redcloak. And I do hope he can pull his head out of his butt. But I feel we should remember two things. 1) Just because Redcloak is better in comparison to Xykon, it doesn't necessarily make him a good person. And, 2) we should probably save our greatest amount of sympathy for Right-Eye, who, while he committed great evil in his life, was actually strong enough to change and to try and make the world a better place.

ETA:::::

I do realize, BTW, that one major difference between Redcloak and Miko is that Redcloak felt really bad about murdering his own brother after he did it, while Miko was spouting rationaizations. Well, cry me a river, Redcloak, but that doesn't make it all better in my book. :smalltongue: Oh sure, it's a good thing that Redcloak realizes That He Messed Up. But I notice that he didn't exactly fix the problem while he could. :smallwink:

So while he the fact that he Feels Bad About Everything counts for a little something, it doesn't mean a whole heck of a in the Grand Scheme of Things. Unless, of course, it's used as a plot in the future to change Redcloak. Till then, I ain't going to cut him that much slack over the fact that he, unlike Miko, he feels bad about the whole thing.

Just some food for thought. :smallsmile:

[Fitzclowningham]

Porthos, Redcloak goes down in the next to last comic, in the act of betraying Xykon. It has to happen.

[Poeir]

I'm not sure Redcloak *does* do everything of his own free will. Note that right after he puts on the Crimson Mantle, he immediately begins focusing on the Plan, almost as though he's under some sort of mind control. Perhaps pre-Redcloak doesn't even exist any more.

[Porthos]

I'm not sure Redcloak *does* do everything of his own free will. Note that right after he puts on the Crimson Mantle, he immediately begins focusing on the Plan, almost as though he's under some sort of mind control. Perhaps pre-Redcloak doesn't even exist any more.

[Response still contains the MAJOR SPOILERS I referenced earlier]

That's an interesting thought, and one I thought about as well. You can see The Dark One speaking through Redcloak for first couple of panels after he puts on the Cloak at least. :smallsmile:

I think, however, this is a lot closer to Redcloak just being very, very convinced of the rightness of The Dark One's Cause. Almost to the point of brainwashing really. After all, Redcloak was in a very fragile state of mind when The Dark One hit the Download Button. And so one could see why he would latch onto that vision for strength and stability.

Still, I think there have been enough instances of Redcloak showing a conscience (remember his half-hearted vows to Raise Right-Eye or his decision to settle down with Right-Eye and abandon The Plan before Xykon showed up and ruined everything) that I don't believe that The Dark One is controlling his every thought and deed. Instead, I think Xykon was right. Redcloak was (at the time) too much of a coward to face up to his mistakes.

In many ways, Redcloak has built his entire life around The Plan. It takes a lot to put aside your life's work and decide to move in another direction. I guess we would find out if Redcloak ever tried to do something that The Dark One really disapproved. Would Redcloak even be allowed to do it? Would The Dark God deliver a Twelve Gods Style Smackdown? Or would the cloak even try to strangle him?

I hope we actually get to find out, coz that might show some potential for Redcloak's Redemption. :smallwink:
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After all, now that Miko's dead, we need to find another character to latch on Redemption-wise! :smalltongue:

[malakim2099]

[Response still contains the MAJOR SPOILERS I referenced earlier]

Still, I think there have been enough instances of Redcloak showing a conscience (remember his half-hearted vows to Raise Right-Eye or his decision to settle down with Right-Eye and abandon The Plan before Xykon showed up and ruined everything) that I don't believe that The Dark One is controlling his every thought and deed. Instead, I think Xykon was right. Redcloak was (at the time) too much of a coward to face up to his mistakes.

In many ways, Redcloak has built his entire life around The Plan. It takes a lot to put aside your life's work and decide to move in another direction. I guess we would find out if Redcloak ever tried to do something that The Dark One really disapproved. Would Redcloak even be allowed to do it? Would The Dark God deliver a Twelve Gods Style Smackdown? Or would the cloak even try to strangle him?

Well, see, here's the thing. I think Redcloak was on the verge, when he was settling down with Right-Eye and his family before Xykon showed up, of really inching back up to LN. Which, in game terms, means about nothing since The Dark One is (presumably) a LE deity, so you can be LN and follow him without penalty. And he is following the Dark One's overall goal of improving life for the goblin race. Just doing it by raising a family and starting a thriving non-cannon fodder community of goblins to maybe start a lasting society.

Besides, the Dark One is a deity. He thinks in the long term of centuries... and his end goal is not necessarily "Channeling the Snarl to Blackmail other gods", it is "Improving the lot of the goblin race". Allegedly. If Redcloak and others can do that without using the Snarl at all, then that's fine. As long as the goal is achieved, he probably wouldn't exactly care how they got there.

Now, Xykon, of course, is going to have some issues with that... :smallamused:

[Porthos]

Well, see, here's the thing. I think Redcloak was on the verge, when he was settling down with Right-Eye and his family before Xykon showed up, of really inching back up to LN. Which, in game terms, means about nothing since The Dark One is (presumably) a LE deity, so you can be LN and follow him without penalty. And he is following the Dark One's overall goal of improving life for the goblin race. Just doing it by raising a family and starting a thriving non-cannon fodder community of goblins to maybe start a lasting society.

Besides, the Dark One is a deity. He thinks in the long term of centuries... and his end goal is not necessarily "Channeling the Snarl to Blackmail other gods", it is "Improving the lot of the goblin race". Allegedly. If Redcloak and others can do that without using the Snarl at all, then that's fine. As long as the goal is achieved, he probably wouldn't exactly care how they got there.

Now, Xykon, of course, is going to have some issues with that... :smallamused:

I guess it all comes down to how bitter The Dark One is over the little "prank" the humans pulled on him. :smalltongue: But, overall I agree with your points. The real problem is, outside of the extremely self-serving "history" that Right-Eye and Redcloak told us, we really know very little about The Dark One. And we certainly know nothing about him from a Third Person Omniscient Narrator viewpoint. So it is certainly possible that The Dark One would take the longer view and let Redcloak "build up" the goblins instead of "tearing down" the others. Or he might pull a huge hissy fit. We really don't know.

As for the LN point, I agree whole-heartedly. I think Redcloak really was on the verge of changing his whole philosophical viewpoint (which can lead to an alignment change). It's also obvious that, by this time, Right-Eye had shifted to LN, and a serious case could be made for the idea that he shifted to LG by the time he attacked Xykon.

Going back to Redcloak and him thinking about settling down, it really is quite interesting, from a narrative viewpoint, that Xykon decided to show up and stick the proverbial knife in Redcloak's back when he did. It's almost as if Xykon was watching Redcloak's life and saying to himself, "OK. Now when would be the most awful, gut-wrenching time I could reappear and wreck Redcloak's life?

Now??? No, not yet.

<<Checks back later>>>

Now? neyt.

<<<See's Redcloak's about to settle down>>>

Ah yes.... Now's the time. Teleport.

Man. If Xykon had done something like that, just to screw over Redcloak.... It would be. Oh what's the word I'm looking for? Oh yes.... Evil. :smalltongue:

[SPoD]

It's also obvious that, by this time, Right-Eye had shifted to LN, and a serious case could be made for the idea that he shifted to LG by the time he attacked Xykon.

Actually, not to get into an alignment discussion, but...

Right-Eye doesn't strike me as being at all Lawful. His primary traits are:

• He's impatient, often defying Redcloak's instructions because he got bored.
• He suggests breaking the deal with Xykon rather than turning him into a lich.
• He's willing to just leave the situation when it gets out of hand.
• He turns on his supposed leader and trys to kill him when leaving doesn't work.

Plus, the only evil things he ever does are to associate with Evil people and fight Good people. And even then, he turns on Evil in the middle of the book when he tries to provide Eugene Greenhilt (a Lawful Good character) with the ability to kill Xykon.

I would say Right-Eye is True Neutral, honestly. He cares about those close to him, but has no deep commitment to philosophical ideals. He is willing to drop them when necessary (he changes his mind several times). He may trend towards Neutral Good at the end, but I don't think so: he still is only caring about protecting the goblins, not saving the world from Xykon's Evil.

[Porthos]

Actually, not to get into an alignment discussion, but...

And all good points. I must admit I posted that very late last night and really wasn't thinking much about it. I was focusing much more on the E/N/G angle than the C/N/L angle (and a compare-n-contrast with Recloak). You are, of course, entirely right about the non-Lawfulness of Right-Eye.

Thank you for the much needed correction. :smallsmile:

[Gaius_Maximus]

After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.

[Moral Wiz]

After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.

No spoilers I can spot in that, . Anyway, the reason they couldn't do anything with the gate was cos of the wards. They hadn't gotten thru them, and that was what was killing the goblins.


EDIT: hah! Ninjad the ninja ;)

[Porthos]

After tearing through SoD, I decided to go back and reread the earlier books, and now I'm wondering a couple things. If Redcloak knows the rituals to take control of the gate, why were he and Xykon sitting around the Dungeon of Dorukan for six months without performing them? Also, why was Xykon trying to get anything through the gate when he knows what's on the other side and what will happen to anything that goes through? I realize that the Giant probably didn't have this all planned out when he wrote those strips, but I was wondering if anyone has come up with a good fanwank for this.

Because Xykon and Redcloak were trying to pass the protections [i.e. that big glowing rune] that Durorkan put on the gate, and not get at the gate itself. :smallsmile: And he was sending in Random Mooks to try and destroy/infulence the protections because he was bored. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0097.html)

After all, all the rituals the world won't help you if you can't actually influence the silly thing. :smallsmile:

Besides, do you really think Xykon would care if a couple of Random Mooks got eaten by the Snarl? Heck, if that meant the protections that Durorkan put up were taken away, he'd consider that a freebie. :smalltongue:

[DSCrankshaw]

I'm not sure whether this part qualifies as spoilers. Better safe than sorry, but it should be okay:
I'll second those arguments saying that this book made me less, not more, sympathetic to Redcloak's point-of-view. I pity him, but I'm not rooting for him unless I see some serious desire for redemption.

I really did like his brother, though. Definitely more neutral than evil throughout. Maybe even trending good.
The next part definitely contains spoilers:
I also want to see more of the two unresolved plot threads: the soul gem and Right-eye's daughter. I agree that it'd be really interesting if the daughter was Haley, but that would require some horrendously complex explanations, considering things like this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html). As for the soul gem, it wouldn't surprise me at all if it had somehow ended up in Haley's hands, or even Elan's--who, while not a thief, is too curious for his own (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0009.html) good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0118.html).

[Fawkes]

I'm not sure that the soul gem is really an unresolved plot thread. I think that is perfectly resolved. I would be surprised if the soul gem ever shows up again.

[TheNovak]

I'm not sure that the soul gem is really an unresolved plot thread. I think that is perfectly resolved. I would be surprised if the soul gem ever shows up again.

Really? I admit that my OotS prediction record is like 3-592, but I'd be kind of disappointed if it didn't return, if only so the Order could interact with Dorukan and Lirian for a bit and learn more about the gates.

Oh, and a few miscellaneous things I noticed/thought about on my second read-through:

1) Page 90, bottom row, panels 2 & 3: am I crazy, or are the Strength scores/modifiers listed there wrong? 17 should be +3, not +4...either that, or every GM I've ever had since 3.0 came out is an evil, evil liar.

2) Page 78, bottom row, panel two. Hey! Adventurers! One of 'em looks familiar...let's check page 56 in Origins... Helmet Dude! From the very first panel on 56. He's sittin' at the leftmost table, all by his lonesome. Poor Helmet Dude. He must be gettin' old...what race do you suppose he is, to still be adventuring 21 years later?

3) Not a specific easter egg or anything, but it (surprisingly) hasn't been discussed. Lirian's Gate didn't explode when destroyed! I'd say that settles one particular argument. The gates don't explode when broken just because of the powerful magic that went into them; obviously, Dorukan and Soon both enchanted theirs to make a big kablooey (and seal the rift) in case of emergency.

4) On the same note, Lirian's rift is still there. That's probably bad (though the elves do have plenty of druids and wizards to fix it up, if they can figure out how).

5) I wonder if the Unholy Master, Yydranna, or Keith Baker will show up again?

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Personally, I would like to see Right-Eye's daughter that was smuggled off to be raised away from Xykon and the rest appear. THAT would be awesome... and give a great Star Wars moment.


I'm sure she will, but I really honestly hope she never does and has a nice peaceful boring life somewhere.

[Dalenthas]

I love the posts that say "Actually..." [SPOILER] and what not. I'm sure this thread will be a lot less funny once I actually read SoD...

[WarriorTribble]

3) Not a specific easter egg or anything, but it (surprisingly) hasn't been discussed. Lirian's Gate didn't explode when destroyed! I'd say that settles one particular argument. The gates don't explode when broken just because of the powerful magic that went into them; obviously, Dorukan and Soon both enchanted theirs to make a big kablooey (and seal the rift) in case of emergency.I'd like to know why the gate wasn't fireproofed. You'd think a place with an epic druid, and a smoky the bear parody would've made sure a freak thunder storm, or any random fire wouldn't wipe out a pillar of reality.

[Winged One]

I'd like to know why the gate wasn't fireproofed. You'd think a place with an epic druid, and a smoky the bear parody would've made sure a freak thunder storm, or any random fire wouldn't wipe out a pillar of reality.

It wasn't a fire, it was the support-treants running in the opposite direction and pulling the gate apart.

Speculation in addition to actual spoilers:
What would happen if Tsukiko discovered the Plan, which requires both an arcanist and a divine caster, of which she is both? Would she try to steal the Crimson Mantle from Redcloak with the intent to control the Snarl for herself, only to discover that it doesn't work like Xykon thinks it does and report him? Would she approach Redcloak(unlikely, given their current relationship, but if she starts to hate Xykon enough, it could happen) about replacing Xykon as the arcanist, which, given his recent character development, might give him enough spine to face the truth about Right-eye's death(giving us a cliffhanger where he just yells "True Ressurection!")?

For that matter, what would happen if the OOTS kills Redcloak, and one of the good-aligned members puts the Mantle on? Particularly Vaarsuvius, since (s)he can cast Contact Other Plane to rag on the gods about their injustice. Or even if Redcloak finally faces his own cowardice and subsequently tries to tempt either V, Elan(bards are arcanists as well), or even Julia to join him(possibly by simply explaining exactly how raw a deal goblins get).

No speculation: I found the final "one gets to be the butch, and one gets to be the bitch. Bitch" scene to be one of the most tearjerking things I've ever read(definately tragic in the Greek style, but that makes it no less tragic). I also now hate Xykon with the firey burning passion of ten thousand burning suns. Which burn. With flames. The flames are also on fire(cookie if you know who I stole that from). I can't help but laugh at him sometimes, though(Heeere, wizard wizard wizard!). Finally, if he himself could be convinced that it's possible, I would love for Redcloak to be redeemed.

[WarriorTribble]

It wasn't a fire, it was the support-treants running in teh opposite direction and pulling the gate apart.After looking at the book again you are correct, the fire was only a catalyst, not the direct cause for the gate's destruction. I still think the whole trees should've been fireproofed notion stands however especially when you're dealing with a species with arsonphobia.

[Winged One]

They might have been treated with Resist Fire, but simply still been afraid of it enough to panic like that.

[WarriorTribble]

If a creature has fire resistience do they still burn? I've no idea don't play D&D, but I imagine a mundane fire that requires fuel to continue burning would stop. Still, it's really strange to see such a... basic weakness in that gate. Like I mentioned before a bad thunderstorm could've destroyed the gate which is just bad design. Then again Rich does imply that the gates were shoddily made (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) I guess.

[Winged One]

A creature with fire resistance 6 or higher, which is less than the minimum that the lowest-level fire resistance spell on the books can provide, can literally walk around all day while on fire and take no damage, but treants are likely to have a severe phobia of it(with good reason), and panic even when in no danger from it. Much like a clausterphobic person will panic if in an enclosed space even though they aren't in any danger other than that they put themselves in by panicing.

[WarriorTribble]

That all true, but it doesn't negate the whole "gate is shoddily built" argument. Heck I'm sure we could come up with a plausible explaination for why the gate was built with such fatal flaws, (ooh... that reminds me of my trekkie days :smallsmile: ) but I'm going to go with what we've seen so far. The two trees should've been immoblized, made immune to irrational fears, or both.

[darkgolem]

Opinion that might need to be spoilered.

I both liked and disliked this book. First, to the writer, this cartoon is outstanding in it's content and (surprisingly for a cartoon, from my point of view) emotional content.

Here is what I liked. I liked the finding out the background, I liked the development of the characters (though see further), and I liked the humor.

But here is what I didn't like. Xykon was too evil, and in the end, Redcloak was too broken in spirit and hopeless. I have grown to like Redcloak, I empathize (sp?) with his character. but in the end, with Redcloak being made a complete slave, broken of spirit and hopeless, a corrupted (in action) betrayor of his ideals, it left a poor feeling which detracted from the story. I understand, it's not supposed to be a happy story with puppies and unicorns, but on the other hand, it shouldn't be so negative in feeling that it overshadows the whole story.

It makes me think of the story "Bluebeard". A story which (depending upon the version you read) ends so horribly that you are clear there are no happy endings. A woman is married to a lord who demands she never, ever, enters a certain room, but otherwise she lives in wealth and luxury. Eventually curiosity overcomes her, she goes in, and sees the heads of all of Bluebeard's previous wives on stakes. He explains that, sorry, he "loves" her, but since she disobeyed him, alas, she will now die for her disobedience, and her head will join the others. Now, that's evil, but you never see why he is so evil.

You feel the horror and terror of the woman at the end, but you don't look at the story a month later and say "hmm, nope, that story is a downer". This is because it is a physical evil, not a description of the decay of human spirit.

However, the end of Start of Darkness is.

This is both a complement and a criticism to the writer. It truly showed me the evil that Xykon is. That doesn't happen to me very often. It is also a comic and a story meant to entertain, and knowing that evil detracts from the entertainment, personally.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Also, if you're reading this thread and haven't read SoD yet, you should assume that all spoilers in this thread are FOR SoD - so don't click on them!! If you ruin it for yourself, you have only you to blame!I pick up a book because I enjoy reading it, not to look up information on a fictional universe. I will read all the spoilers I want.

[Chrismith]

For that matter, what would happen if the OOTS kills Redcloak, and one of the good-aligned members puts the Mantle on? Particularly Vaarsuvius, since (s)he can cast Contact Other Plane to rag on the gods about their injustice. Or even if Redcloak finally faces his own cowardice and subsequently tries to tempt either V, Elan(bards are arcanists as well), or even Julia to join him(possibly by simply explaining exactly how raw a deal goblins get).


Now that you mention it, that makes a lot of sense. Remember V's prediction from the Oracle? Maybe this is how he finally achieves ultimate arcane power?

[theKOT]

Wow, this book was perhaps the best stretch of OOTS comics I've ever read.

The art is much better than origins and this is a much more interesting read. Granted, It isn't quite as funny as origins, but the amount of mindblowing plot points really make up for it.

Bravo.

[malakim2099]

A creature with fire resistance 6 or higher, which is less than the minimum that the lowest-level fire resistance spell on the books can provide, can literally walk around all day while on fire and take no damage, but treants are likely to have a severe phobia of it(with good reason), and panic even when in no danger from it. Much like a clausterphobic person will panic if in an enclosed space even though they aren't in any danger other than that they put themselves in by panicing.

Also, the treants might be smart enough to know that Flame Strike will hurt them, even if they have fire resistance.

And also, to answer the "what if the gem was annihilated when Xykon hit the gate..."

Xykon didn't hit the gate. He hit the ward OUTSIDE the gate, otherwise his soul would have been shredded instead of going back to the phylactery. So it's likely that the gem is still intact somewhere.

[Belkar's Left Foot]

Man....I want this things so badly....it hurts! Alas no WOTC store near me and I can't buy it online oh woe is me! (cries)

[Dawnstrider_Moogle]

So I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I'm curious: is the first statement here accurate (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif)? :smalltongue:

[teratorn]

Xykon didn't surprise me. About Redcloak, I don't see why people talk about redemption. He's a different kind of evil, but he's evil, always was. He is tormented but so what? I didn't like his brother (I liked the story, but I had no sympathy for him). He deserved a sad and painful demise.

They're just a bunch of evil characters, can't relate to them. Great book, and I finally got Dungeon also! I have them all! Yeah!

[Alysar]

'"My Alchemical Romance"

lol

[Alysar]

So I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I'm curious: is the first statement here accurate (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif)? :smalltongue:

Hopefully not. It's monday, so there should be a comic update today. And Rich has been sick enough lately.

[Jefepato]

Just got it today, finished in in under an hour, and...

...although I feel bad for Redcloak, I sincerely hope this puts any speculation that his actions might be justified to rest.

[StupidFatHobbit]

No spoilers or discussion from me. I just wanted to say I loved the book and I thought it delivered everything we've come to expect from OOTS. Plot, character development, comedy, tragedy, drama, suspense ... great stuff from an author/artist who just keeps getting better and better.

Another thing: this is the first time in my life that I've bought a book, read it, and then been able to immediately comment about it to the author, more or less directly. That strikes me as an amazing thing when you think about it.

[Alysar]

Another thing: this is the first time in my life that I've bought a book, read it, and then been able to immediately comment about it to the author, more or less directly. That strikes me as an amazing thing when you think about it.

All hail the power of the internet. People talk about porn and pictures of cats with insipidly cute captions, and ignore the internet's real power. Power that shows itself in things like wiki sites, and meetup.com, and this right here.

[Alysar]

Panel 3 of page 107 almost made me cry it was so beautiful. Here's hoping it isn't the last we see of them.

[Faramir]

So I haven't gotten my hands on the book yet, but I'm curious: is the first statement here accurate (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif)? :smalltongue:

Yes, but they only became giants after Xykon cast Enlarge on them.

[Kaertos]

No spoilers from me, just something I felt needed saying.

Rich, this is the best OotS you've written (that you've published). The growth in the emotional content and wordplay of your writing is just amazing. Nothing against the earliest OotS (heck, I've been reading it since like issue #30) but this is a powerful, emotionally complex work that I think really says something about not only the characters you've created and the world you let them play in but about humanity in general. And, in the final analysis, that's the best compliment I could ever pay an author.

Start of Darkness is simply amazing. No other word for it. Keep it up and I'll keep buying everything you put out.

- Kaertos

[Jefepato]

By the way, something revealing I've noticed about Redcloak and, by extension, the Dark One.

Redcloak can smite and casts disintegrate, so he almost certainly has the Destruction domain. In light of this fact, I find the Lore of the Crimson Mantle difficult to believe -- the Dark One as described there really doesn't sound like the destructive sort.

Similarly, he casts hold monster, so unless he's got a non-core domain (certainly possible, I suppose), his second domain is Law.

[Fighteer]

Really? I admit that my OotS prediction record is like 3-592, but I'd be kind of disappointed if it didn't return, if only so the Order could interact with Dorukan and Lirian for a bit and learn more about the gates.
I had a very similar thought; the soul gem is too convenient a plot hook to be left dangling forever.


Oh, and a few miscellaneous things I noticed/thought about on my second read-through:

1) Page 90, bottom row, panels 2 & 3: am I crazy, or are the Strength scores/modifiers listed there wrong? 17 should be +3, not +4...either that, or every GM I've ever had since 3.0 came out is an evil, evil liar.
Yes, it appears the Strength modifiers are wrong. /shrug


3) Not a specific easter egg or anything, but it (surprisingly) hasn't been discussed. Lirian's Gate didn't explode when destroyed! I'd say that settles one particular argument. The gates don't explode when broken just because of the powerful magic that went into them; obviously, Dorukan and Soon both enchanted theirs to make a big kablooey (and seal the rift) in case of emergency.

4) On the same note, Lirian's rift is still there. That's probably bad (though the elves do have plenty of druids and wizards to fix it up, if they can figure out how).
No, it's been very carefully stated that destroying the gate does not destroy the rift itself. The whole point of the gates is to contain the rifts so as to prevent the Snarl from widening them and eventually breaking free, which would force the gods to unmake the world. Even the gods can't destroy or seal the rifts permanently.

There are now three rifts that are uncontained by gates, which means that if we lose the other two, things will get very interesting indeed.


5) I wonder if the Unholy Master, Yydranna, or Keith Baker will show up again?
Those episodes looked like throwaway jokes: certainly the Keith Baker one was. On the assumption that the Unholy Master is (or was) human, he'd be long dead by now.

[CGM3]

Am I the only one who noticed...

In Start of Darkness, we are told that Keith Baker has eyes that are different colors.

In the siege of Azure City, we have met Tsukiko, who has eyes that are different colors.

I can see the exposition panel now: "Tsukiko... I am your father."

"No, that's impossible! I'm too cool to be the daughter of a gamer geek!"

And I think most of us got a chuckle out of the "interim" gate they found between Lirian's and Dorukan's.

[Greebo]

Anyone with any lingering hope that Miko isn't a deeply warped and twisted person need only read the introduction to have that illusion soundly trounced.

I trust I'm not the only one to read those intros. I read them BEFORE the actual comics. ;)

And Rich, I prefer to believe the first reason for gray-scale, no matter what you say. :)

[Alysar]

Anyone with any lingering hope that Miko isn't a deeply warped and twisted person need only read the introduction to have that illusion soundly trounced.

I trust I'm not the only one to read those intros. I read them BEFORE the actual comics. ;)


Yes. I'm glad that's finally cleared up.
Miko believes that everyone of the same alignment is indistinguishable from each other and that motivations are just an excuse for letting evil run rampant.

I have to wonder what Miko thinks of chaotic good people.

edit: Miko obviously WAS a deeply warped and twisted person, but I wonder if her point of view has changed at all since she died.

[teratorn]

Yes. I'm glad that's finally cleared up.
Miko believes that everyone of the same alignment is indistinguishable from each other and that motivations are just an excuse for letting evil run rampant.


Under DnD it can easily be interpreted that way. That's the thing I like about it. Good can be complex and motivations may be important even in DnD. But evil isn't, motivations of evil characters don't matter. That makes playing the game much easier.

Even if Redcloak had some tough times, he is still someone who likes to see other creatures suffer, and enjoys harming the innocent. Motivations may explain a course of action, they don't excuse it. The way people here seem to team with his brother is also something I have trouble understanding. He deserved it.

[Alysar]

Under DnD it can easily be interpreted that way. That's the thing I like about it. Good can be complex and motivations may be important even in DnD. But evil isn't, motivations of evil characters don't matter. That makes playing the game much easier.


'Easier' and 'More Interesting' are not the same thing. If you just want to go on a dungeon crawl and Kill The Big Bad, then yeah, you don't give two flips why the old wizard with gray skin, black robes, and a bloody dagger in his hand is kidnapping the townsfolk and performing horrible, mutilating experiments on them. You just want to stick a large pointy piece of metal through his face and collect your reward from the mayor.

On the other hand, if you want an interesting storyline that you can get emotionally involved in, motivations for evil actions are a very good ingredient, and can lead to more indepth storylines.

[Twilight Jack]

'Easier' and 'More Interesting' are not the same thing. If you just want to go on a dungeon crawl and Kill The Big Bad, then yeah, you don't give two flips why the old wizard with gray skin, black robes, and a bloody dagger in his hand is kidnapping the townsfolk and performing horrible, mutilating experiments on them. You just want to stick a large pointy piece of metal through his face and collect your reward from the mayor.

On the other hand, if you want an interesting storyline that you can get emotionally involved in, motivations for evil actions are a very good ingredient, and can lead to more indepth storylines.

Certainly, however, as has been noted, Miko's "motivations" and "emotional involvement" are completely bound up in the sticking of the pointy metal through the face of evil. All other motivations are merely distractions at best, compromise and corruption usually.

And let's face it, D&D does get played this way. Often by folks running Paladins.

[SteveMB]

Just finished my copy.

Wow. Just wow.

I think I'm going to change my sig to
You'll obey me forever now, because I give you an excuse for your inexcusable behavior.
once a little time has gone so that a one-liner can be considered to come under the spoiler statute of limitations.


Panel 3 of page 107 almost made me cry it was so beautiful.
Gee, the pollen is thick today. It's pollen, right...?

[Alysar]

Certainly, however, as has been noted, Miko's "motivations" and "emotional involvement" are completely bound up in the sticking of the pointy metal through the face of evil. All other motivations are merely distractions at best, compromise and corruption usually.

And let's face it, D&D does get played this way. Often by folks running Paladins.

Of course it does. I'm not arguing that it doesn't, and I'm not arguing that it's a bad thing. I'm saying that there are many ways to play RPGs, depending on the tastes of the players and their mood at the time. All of them equally valid. Whether you want to play a simple dungeon crawl, or an epic adventure, or a game where you end up understanding why the bad guys are the way they are, or even if you want to play as the bad guys.

[SteveMB]

My god, I don't even know where to begin. Poor Redcloak. Poor goblins in general. And goddamn Xykon. And...god.

The "butch and bitch" line was probably the cruelist, most heart-jerking thing I've ever read. God, this book was unbelievably awesome. Mein gott. I need to go read it again.

Hmmm....
Note Xykon's preceding comments about having "ripped off his living flesh" as proof that he qualifies as "evil with a capital E". I can't help but think but part of that is convincing himself that what he lost in the process (e.g. the diner scene on page 73, where he can't taste the coffee and lashes out in anger) was worth it.

[teratorn]

'If you just want to go on a dungeon crawl and Kill The Big Bad, then yeah, you don't give two flips why the old wizard with gray skin, black robes, and a bloody dagger in his hand is kidnapping the townsfolk and performing horrible, mutilating experiments on them.
Sigh, no one was talking about that. Knowing the old wizards motivations may be interesting if you like stories. I do, I bought this book.

But his motivations won't change my opinion of him, at least not in a good direction. I didn't like Redcloak before, I like him even less now.

You make it sound like the wizard story would have some impact on what you would want to do about him. I'd kill the wizard even if there was a story of pain and suffering behind him.

[Alysar]

Sigh, no one was talking about that. Knowing the old wizards motivations may be interesting if you like stories. I do, I bought this book.

But his motivations won't change my opinion of him, at least not in a good direction. I didn't like Redcloak before, I like him even less now.


But do you dislike him in the same way? I didn't like him before, and I don't like him now. But now, I also feel sorry for him.



You make it sound like the wizard story would have some impact on what you would want to do about him. I'd kill the wizard even if there was a story of pain and suffering behind him.

So would I. So would most people. The key is, would you arrive at the decision the same way? Would you feel less confident about it even as you did what you knew had to be done?

As I said. Motivations make a lot of difference. Sometimes they make a difference in what actions you take, sometimes they don't. But they always still make a difference.

[teratorn]

But do you dislike him in the same way? I didn't like him before, and I don't like him now. But now, I also feel sorry for him.
That's the problem with this kind of backstuff. Feeling sorry for evil may lead you to hesitate or hinder your actions when erradicating evil. I hope we don't get something like this about Belkar, we already have enough people cheering for him.

If I were playing a paladin, I as a player would like to know the story but I would not tell that to my character (:smallconfused: yeah I know that's weird). Of course sometimes you need to know the story to better fight an adversary but, if you're strong enough, there's no problem in finishing the job first.

[Alysar]

That's the problem with this kind of backstuff. Feeling sorry for evil may lead you to hesitate or hinder your actions when erradicating evil. I hope we don't get something like this about Belkar, we already have enough people cheering for him.


Now you're talking like Miko.

Let me clarify. I feel sorry for Redcloak because now he's not just evil, he's kind of pathetic because he wasn't strong enough to admit that he made a horrible, horrible mistake. I don't feel even remotely sorry for Xykon. And that was Rich's intention as far as I can tell (to feel sorry for Redcloak but not Xykon).



If I were playing a paladin, I as a player would like to know the story but I would not tell that to my character (:smallconfused: yeah I know that's weird).


Not weird at all. Difficult to pull off for some gamers, but not weird.



Of course sometimes you need to know the story to better fight an adversary but, if you're strong enough, there's no problem in finishing the job first.

[TheNovak]

By the way, something revealing I've noticed about Redcloak and, by extension, the Dark One.

Redcloak can smite and casts disintegrate, so he almost certainly has the Destruction domain. In light of this fact, I find the Lore of the Crimson Mantle difficult to believe -- the Dark One as described there really doesn't sound like the destructive sort.

Similarly, he casts hold monster, so unless he's got a non-core domain (certainly possible, I suppose), his second domain is Law.

Heh, no one replied to this?

I think Destruction being a domain of the Dark One makes perfect sense. After all, he wants to destroy the universe, and then have an equal share in rebuilding it. Makes sense to me.

[Porthos]

Heh, no one replied to this?

I think Destruction being a domain of the Dark One makes perfect sense. After all, he wants to destroy the universe, and then have an equal share in rebuilding it. Makes sense to me.

Technically, again if we believe the propaganda story Redcloak is telling, the destruction of the world is a backup plan, just in case the Blackmail of the Gods doesn't work.

Or rather, if the Snarl does get loosed when the Gate is moved, it's no big deal, as then The Dark One will be around to help build The World 3.0. I think this is filed under the category of Win/Win rather than actually wanting to destroy the world. :smallwink:

[Fighteer]

The Dark One wins whether he successfully blackmails the gods or not. However, his loyal subjects won't necessarily be so lucky. This is not exactly the template for a Good deity. Let us not forget that his rise to godhood was precipitated by a massive war in which his followers attempted to annihilate humanity in retaliation for his assassination. Destruction is a... logical choice for a domain, don't you think?

I'm more curious how he comes by the Law domain, since if he is a LE deity, he can't have CE clerics, which tosses out a number of goblinoid subraces, if I remember my Monster Manual correctly.

[Ampersand]

Anyone with any lingering hope that Miko isn't a deeply warped and twisted person need only read the introduction to have that illusion soundly trounced.

How do you figure?


I hope we don't get something like this about Belkar, we already have enough people cheering for him.

Thankfully the Giant addressed that in the introduction to OtOoPC. He purposefully didn't go deep into Belkar's background because he feared trying to make him sympathetic would dilute some of the "humor" that Belkar supposedly possesses.

I throughly enjoyed SoD...the quality of story and humor was definitely on a level superior to that of the daily comics of late. No large expanses of wasted panels, no annoying serendipitous coincidences to make sure the main characters succeed (Bad Guys have to work for their victories, after all. Heroes just sit around and wait for a lucky break)

While I find it odd that we're required to put spoiler tags around things in what is quite obviously a spoiler thread, here we are. The biggest stretch I found in SoD was that Redcloak was able to retain his spellcasting powers despite Lirian's virus, although even that is semi-satisfactorily explained via the Crimson Mantle...as powerful as Lirian is, it is plausible that a major artifact (which may or may not represent the direct intercession of a deity) would be able to counteract her virus.

I suppose my favorite part is the contrast between what Redcloak says to Xykon in the next-to-last panel of page 74 contrasted to Xykon's speech on 108. Really shows how they both need each other to justify the things they've done over their years together.

I also liked the contrast between basically-sane-but-still-evil-and-careless Xykon Live and the completely crazy nutjob he became after becoming a lich.

Definite 10 out of 10, this one.

[Alysar]

Anyone with any lingering hope that Miko isn't a deeply warped and twisted person need only read the introduction to have that illusion soundly trounced.


How do you figure?



He meant the preface. The one that Miko 'wrote'.

[Alysar]

What is that picture of at the top of the publishers page, opposite Miko's preface? At first I thought it was a couple of empty dice bags.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Rich? You want to help us out here?

[Porthos]

The Dark One wins whether he successfully blackmails the gods or not. However, his loyal subjects won't necessarily be so lucky. This is not exactly the template for a Good deity. Let us not forget that his rise to godhood was precipitated by a massive war in which his followers attempted to annihilate humanity in retaliation for his assassination. Destruction is a... logical choice for a domain, don't you think?

Oh I agree that Destruction is a fairly logical choice. I was just engaging in some minor quibbling over the statement that the main goal of The Dark One was to destroy the world. :smallsmile:


I'm more curious how he comes by the Law domain, since if he is a LE deity, he can't have CE clerics, which tosses out a number of goblinoid subraces, if I remember my Monster Manual correctly.

By this point I think it is fairly obvious that One Step Rule doesn't totally apply in Rich's World. Thor is obviously, at least in my eyes after seeing his many actions, CG. Durkon is LG. Bit of a problem there. :smallwink:

My take is that if a god has a Racial Domain (i.e. Dwarf in the case of Thor/Odin/Loki) then they are allowed to take worshipers from that race regardless of alignment. Or perhaps they can be Two Steps Away (CG--->NG--->LG), as long as they don't go to the other side of the Good/Evil axis (so, CG---->CN would be acceptable but CG---CN--->CE would be not). Or maybe the One Step Rule isn't enforced at all for any of the gods. It's not like it's unheard of in Campaign Settings. :smallbiggrin:

[Ampersand]

He meant the preface. The one that Miko 'wrote'.

Yeah, that I get. But aside from the Anakin cribbed stuff, it took her an entire page to decide that the reader was in league with evil and try to smite him/her. I actually finished that impressed at how comparatively mild and rational it seemed.

[teratorn]

Now you're talking like Miko.

You make it seem like it's a bad thing. That introduction alone made this a great book. There she was in all her glory. What can I say, she smote my heart.

Now Red's niece was introduced for a reason, and maybe she'll have some role in a future story arc. A goblin in the order?

[Greebo]

Yeah, that I get. But aside from the Anakin cribbed stuff, it took her an entire page to decide that the reader was in league with evil and try to smite him/her. I actually finished that impressed at how comparatively mild and rational it seemed.
It *seemed* rational. It was, however, extremely illogical, and demonstrated with perfect clarity how Miko was absolutely unable to separate her opinion of how people should behave from the reality.

Miko reached the conclusion that the reader should be condemned to death, based on the fact that the reader was reading the book.

She even declared in that preface that she was judging the book *without reading it herself*.

Right up there with the whack job lady who is on a crusade to ban Harry Potter books because they promote witchcraft and satanism. She's never read them either.

[StupidFatHobbit]

What is that picture of at the top of the publishers page, opposite Miko's preface? At first I thought it was a couple of empty dice bags.

It's a pillow, a rumpled blanket, and a teddy bear. At least, a soft toy of some sort. Technically it looks more like a frog than a bear.

I'm also curious about what it means. It's in a position where you might expect to see a dedication. Does Rich have kids?

Edit: And if he does have kids, and they're young enough to have a blanky and a teddy frog, why would he dedicate Start of Darkness to them? Is he raising them to be evil? Do we need to worry, in about 20 years? Should I start looking for a secure underground bunker?

[Alysar]

You make it seem like it's a bad thing. That introduction alone made this a great book. There she was in all her glory. What can I say, she smote my heart.


Yes it's a bad thing, and yes, it made SoD a great book. Simply because it illustrates exactly how wacko she really is. Her dimensia is flat-out hilarious.

[Hungry Kobold]

I just finished reading it a while ago.

Xykon is now among my favorite fictional villains of all time. Rarely do we get a villain who is so powerful and so wholly evil that he doesn't need to care. Many might disagree, but I find this book to be all the proof I need that Xykon is no fool. Rather, he's bloody brilliant.

His speech to Dorukan was awesome, as non-Shakespearean monologues go.

[OwN]

Not 100% sure what qualifys as spoiler, so I'll just S-Block the whole thing...

I just got mine and finished reading it, and I've got to say, I actually fell sorry for Redcloak. I felt that :xykon: was in perfect character (although the reasons and methods behind the lichification surprised me) and enjoyed him throughly, but I kinda feel bad for Redcloak and his brother.


Oh, and the Stargate SG-1 reference made me laugh so long and hard that it woke up everyone in my house. Even then, it was so worth it.



Thank you Mr. Burlew, for an amazing story and piece of storytelling...nay, art.

[TO_Incognito]

This book was dramatically amazing.

Feeling bad for Redcloak or hoping for his redemption does not at all necessitate claiming that he wasn't 100% responsible for the completely evil act of killing Right-Eye. Of course that act was totally wrong and unjustified and of course Redcloak was fully responsible for it. In addition, he probably can't ever merit redemption. None of those things changes the fact that Redcloak did all that he did believing that he was helping his people, and that it would be dramatically and morally satisfying to see him cop to his evil act and seek to atone for it by doing what is really right.

I even think Rich may have written Soon's words in 464 with Redcloak in mind: "Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone." Redcloak's servile words and comments about goblin deaths in 95 make more sense now, too.

[Alysar]

This book was dramatically amazing.

Feeling bad for Redcloak or hoping for his redemption does not at all necessitate claiming that he wasn't 100% responsible for the completely evil act of killing Right-Eye. Of course that act was totally wrong and unjustified and of course Redcloak was fully responsible for it. In addition, he probably can't ever merit redemption. None of those things changes the fact that Redcloak did all that he did believing that he was helping his people, and that it would be dramatically and morally satisfying to see him cop to his evil act and seek to atone for it by doing what is really right.

I even think Rich may have written Soon's words in 464 with Redcloak in mind: "Redemption is a rare and special thing, after all. It is not for everyone." Redcloak's servile words and comments about goblin deaths in 95 make more sense now, too.


95? Are you sure that's the right number?

[SteveMB]

95? Are you sure that's the right number?

There are other examples, but #95 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0095.html) works as an illustration -- Redcloak is dismayed to see Xykon drag up the corpse of (at least) a personal acquaintance, but suppresses his reaction and casts Speak With Dead as ordered. In the final frame ("Sigh. I live to serve."), it's clear that he's unhappy that Xykon disturbed the dead goblin's spirit just because he can't be bothered to keep track of his keys or dig up his spare set, but doesn't have the backbone to openly complain about it.

[TO_Incognito]

95? Are you sure that's the right number?

SteveMB explained it well. I chose 95 because it seems to be the earliest clear illustration of the Redcloak we saw in SoD.

[Hyrael]

Its strange, but As much as i really feel for Redcloak's tragedy, I actually feel considerable resonance with Xykon. Yes, he was a rediculously evil ******* who deserved what happened to him, but I do see that he lost something very dear to him.

Now, dont get me wrong. I hate Xykon and pity redcloak as much as anyone else here (particularly the bitch/butch thing. the cruelty...)

Xykon used to be human. not a particularly bright one, and a very evil one, but human nonetheless. He used to see people as more than sources of momentary ammusement. Compare the two xykons who walked into an Evil diner. One took the time to enjoy the coffee and the hot waitress, and listened to two goblins tell their story. He was alive, and at least intellectually capable of aknowledging that other people are real, even if he didnt give a crap about them. He had been subjected to more than his fair share of ridicule for being a not particularly bright sorceror. He had feelings that could be hurt. One could begin to understand why he was the way he was, though you didnt feel at all sorry for him.

The other xykon couldnt taste the coffee that he had once taken so much pleasure in, killed the hot waitress for no particular reason, and saw the two goblins he was sitting with as nothing more than disturbingly warm bags of goo. He had lost something precious. He wasnt the same person anymore. He had shed the one thing that kept him from pure, cruel, EVIL; life. Even the nastiest, most sadistic person still needs to take time out of his day to eat a meal and take a crap, and has a favorite food. Sleeps and has dreams. At least feels a need for other people, even if its only in the physical sense. But when you loose those little things, all you have left is what xykon has become. A lifeless shell with nothing left that really matters. And nothing left to do other then keep buisy and entertained, lest he have a chance to reflect on what he was become.

[GrayMatter]

Does anyone else but me think that this entire thread should be marked as a spoiler? rofl...

That being said, Thank You Mr. Burlew for the clear warning in the beginning of SoD that "Bad things happen to a lot of people". I was so used to the OOTS happy fun style that I would have been a bit shellshocked by the events of SoD.

Also, I ain't reading this where kids can get ahold of it lol. And donating to a library? Forgeddaboudit.

[Porthos]

Its strange, but As much as i really feel for Redcloak's tragedy, I actually feel considerable resonance with Xykon. Yes, he was a rediculously evil ******* who deserved what happened to him, but I do see that he lost something very dear to him.

A lot of very insightful commentary there, Hyrael. And I agree with it 100%. :smallsmile:

I think the telling line is:"I didn't taste.... anything."

That was the precise moment that Xykon became a psychopath. Oh, as you say, he was plenty evil before. But it was a "earthy" sort of evil. It was one that, for lack of a better term, wallowed. I got a strong sense that he loved his earthly pleasures and when one was taken away from him (sex drive) he moved onto another (coffee). Mind you, he still delighted in the suffering of others, and you could see him engaging in the Sarcastic Wiseguy Evil that the lich version of Xykon is famous for.

But I don't think he was a true pschopath quite yet, although the seeds were definitely there. And even after he initally became a lich, he wasn't quite, well, insane yet. IMO, it's because he hadn't realized what he had given up. Uptill the coffee incident, he felt that everything about becoming a lich was great (he was even joking around with Redcloak and Right-eye).

But once the crashing realization came down on him, everything changed. And for the worse. The only thing that this Xykon really can get any real pleasure out of is either cracking jokes, beating people up, or watching the suffering of others. And he's happiest when he can engage in all three at once. When you consider that he had been ruled by his passions to a large degree before he was turned into a lich.... Well, it's not surprising that he takes after the only outlet for his pleasure with a vengence. :smalltongue:

I'm actually quite pleased with how "human" Rich made Xykon pre-lichdom, albeit a wholly evil, shallow, debased, superiority-complex ridden human. :smalltongue:

[OwN]

I think the telling line is:"I didn't taste.... anything."

That was the precise moment that Xykon became a psychopath. Oh, as you say, he was plenty evil before. But it was a "earthy" sort of evil. It was one that, for lack of a better term, wallowed. I got a strong sense that he loved his earthly pleasures and when one was taken away from him (sex drive) he moved onto another (coffee). Mind you, he still delighted in the suffering of others, and you could see him engaging in the Sarcastic Wiseguy Evil that the lich version of Xykon is famous for.

But I don't think he was a true pschopath quite yet, although the seeds were definitely there. And even after he initally became a lich, he wasn't quite, well, insane yet. IMO, it's because he hadn't realized what he had given up. Uptill the coffee incident, he felt that everything about becoming a lich was great (he was even joking around with Redcloak and Right-eye).

But once the crashing realization came down on him, everything changed. And for the worse. The only thing that this Xykon really can get any real pleasure out of is either cracking jokes, beating people up, or watching the suffering of others. And he's happiest when he can engage in all three at once. When you consider that he had been ruled by his passions to a large degree before he was turned into a lich.... Well, it's not surprising that he takes after the only outlet for his pleasure with a vengence. :smalltongue:

I'm actually quite pleased with how "human" Rich made Xykon pre-lichdom, albeit a wholly evil, shallow, debased, superiority-complex ridden human. :smalltongue:

That was...incredibly insightful. Kudos.

I just read it again, and this time I focused more on Xykon, and I think the two most driving components of his mind are his pride (getting his name correct) and his legacy, with his legacy being pushed aside now that he can't die. He used to enjoy things more, but now that he is a lich he cannot.

Pride-wise, he is focused on making sure that he is known for who he is and that he is respected and feared. (See fighting Roy on the dragon, where he kept getting interrupted.) This also shows for me when he is constantly making sure that there is an X in his name, and in making sure that Redcloak knows in no uncertain terms who is the boss.

[teratorn]

Does anyone else but me think that this entire thread should be marked as a spoiler? rofl...

Some people may come in here just to know the general opinion about the book. Things like if we liked it, if we found it was too gloomy, or if characters were too cruel. If we think it is adequate for children, if it would make a nice gift, that kind of stuff.

[Fitzclowningham]

I know this is completely contrary to the spirit of how Rich is developing Xykon's character, but...

As far as tasting coffee goes, Xykon could just polymorph or shapechange himself into a form that could had the capability.

[Ubiq]

A few thoughts.

Xykon


I would have pegged him as being at least fifteen or sixteen when he met Xavion, but his comment to Redcloak and Right-Eye about being seventy-seven would indicate that he was twelve and that he was four when he reanimated Barky.

I think many of his actions towards Redcloak are motivated by a desire to punish his minion for the unexpected results of lichdom. Sure, it's partially just his monstrous nature, but the entire Right-Eye incident seems particularly vindictive even for Xykon.

Same for Right-Eye; I doubt Xykon would have helped any goblins in that situation, but I think that he derived a extra level of amusement out of watching Right-Eye's family die simply because the latter "betrayed" him.


Redcloak


He's had a tragic life and one that probably won't end any better sadly enough. Even worse for him was that he killed Right-Eye to spare their colleagues (most likely, Redcloak would have been the only goblin to survive his reprisals) and then the Order of the Stick wound up killing them all anyway.


CitD


Well, we learned that he existed while the Gates were still closed, so The Bit O' Snarl theory is looking a little shaky. More importantly, the hunter's comments would suggest that his species isn't native to the jungle (CitD's own comments would suggest that he recently migrated to the jungle in question), that he isn't unique, and that his species does not usually speak Common. On top of that, it would appear that the hunter actually knew what he was, but most people seem unfamiliar with whatever he is. As such, he's probably a fairly rare creature, but not one of a kind.

Beyond that, he's fantastically ugly, but in such a way that you can't help but stare at him.

So, CitDs are fairly rare, ugly as sin, incredibly strong, and are usually either unable to speak or simply don't speak Common under normal circumstances.

[ingtar33]

Well i think there are a few things to consider.

The dark one and redcloak's alignment:


clearly he's neutral evil, as is redcloak. He's evil for a reason. He wants to destroy the gods or the world, to give goblins a chance. it's not random evil, and it's not evil inside-a-system, it's evil with a purpose (NE), and without limits. The same goes for Redcloak. He will stoop to any level, even killing and re-animating his brother's corpse for the "plan", turning to and teaming up with a known psychopath, just because he kills paladin's for fun (in the words of right-eye) and slaughters everyone in his way. He even turns that psycho into a super powered lich to keep the plan alive.


Xykon's dump stats


I know it's been a debate on if his dump stat is wis or int... i think we have to conclude after reading start of darkness that xykon's dump stat was INT, and while he doesn't have a lot of wisdom (note the impulsiveness, and lack of patience), he is fairly observant, and streetwise in a Evil sense. it's clearly stated that Xykon's INT is boosted when he turns into a lich, somethign we see with his actual "researching" the other gate locations, as well as deciphering the halfling's writing (though for xykon, it's possible it wasn't coded, but rather he had to learn to read... lol). the end of start of darkness shows xykon showing an astonishing amount of awareness to his surroundings making it clear he does have some amount of wisdom. As a result we probably can conclude his crappy memory is the combination of his simply not caring and bad int.

[Faramir]

Now Red's niece was introduced for a reason, and maybe she'll have some role in a future story arc. A goblin in the order?

And an interesting element is that she is also one of the few people who knows the MitdD really well and is very well liked by it. That might become significant later.

But I think my best laugh in the book came from the second line of the preface.

[SteveMB]

Xykon's dump stats

it's clearly stated that Xykon's INT is boosted when he turns into a lich, somethign we see with his actual "researching" the other gate locations, as well as deciphering the halfling's writing (though for xykon, it's possible it wasn't coded, but rather he had to learn to read... lol).

Amusing, but given that he took math courses in school (even if he flunked them three times) it's unlikely that he's flat-out illiterate. (Then again, he might refer to understanding something written in some un-Common furrin language as "decoding".)

[Maratanos]

:smallconfused:

I REALLY don't get how anyone could hate Redcloak after reading this book.


He's being cruelly manipulated by Xykon, and no matter how bad it looks that he killed his brother, he did it because he truly believes it would save goblin lives. He represents a force for equality in an absurdly bigoted world, and even if he does kill many innocent goblins throughout the main strip, his recent actions have more than proved in my mind that he is terribly sorry for what he did.


The only reason he's going along with the plan by the end of the book, as far as I can tell, is because Xykon's forcing him to. He WANTED to settle down and forget about it, but then Xykon showed up. Sure, he tried to stop Righteye from killing Xykon, but it was motivated more out of the belief that Righteye would fail and bring destruction to ALL the goblins than because he still wanted the plan to succeed.

[Porthos]

:smallconfused:

I REALLY don't get how anyone could hate Redcloak after reading this book.


He's being cruelly manipulated by Xykon, and no matter how bad it looks that he killed his brother, he did it because he truly believes it would save goblin lives. He represents a force for equality in an absurdly bigoted world, and even if he does kill many innocent goblins

You can stop right there. Re-read what you just typed, and it will give you all the answers you need for why people can be pissed with Redcloak. :smallsmile:

Just because you are (supposedly) fighting for equality, it does not, I repeat does not, give you license to lie, murder, and betray people. Just because the world gave you a raw deal, that doesn't justify you going out and trying to ruin the lives of others.

And whenever someone goes to Redcloak and says, "Dude, look at all the lives your wasting," all he can say is "martyr." Like that is supposed to make everything better. I'm sorry, but just because you are supposedly making the world a better place, it does not give you carte-blanch to engage in whatever action you feel like doing.

So it is quite easy to hate Redcloak after reading this book. Because he has betrayed the goblin people he is supposedly fighting for time and time again. Through both his actions and his inactions he has allowed the deaths of untold goblins. And what has he got to show for it? Nothing in SoD and a wasted piece of real estate in the main comic (that probably will get retaken by the Nobel Fleet).

Besides, Redcloak can have all of the best intentions in the world. But you know what they say about road and intentions. :smallwink:

Now with all of that being said, I don't hate him, per se. Pity him? Yep. But it's more of a case of being profoundly disappointed. Redcloak could have been a tremendous force for positive change for the goblin people. But he's (so far) thrown it all away due to his bigotry and his cowardice.

In other words, he's the Classic Tragic Figure. Doomed by his own character faults. And while I might not hate him for his character faults, it is real easy for me to see how other people might. :smallwink:

[Jefepato]

:smallconfused:

I REALLY don't get how anyone could hate Redcloak after reading this book.


He's being cruelly manipulated by Xykon, and no matter how bad it looks that he killed his brother, he did it because he truly believes it would save goblin lives. He represents a force for equality in an absurdly bigoted world, and even if he does kill many innocent goblins throughout the main strip, his recent actions have more than proved in my mind that he is terribly sorry for what he did.


The only reason he's going along with the plan by the end of the book, as far as I can tell, is because Xykon's forcing him to. He WANTED to settle down and forget about it, but then Xykon showed up. Sure, he tried to stop Righteye from killing Xykon, but it was motivated more out of the belief that Righteye would fail and bring destruction to ALL the goblins than because he still wanted the plan to succeed.

Redcloak claims to represent a force for equality, but given how much he hates humans (and didn't want any human's help in the Plan), I don't buy it. It's nothing but blatant hypocrisy.

And even if Redcloak himself really earnestly believes he's fighting for equality, if you think the Dark One is planning to use the Snarl merely to enforce equal treatment, I have a bridge to sell you.

Redcloak had it bad in his childhood, but ultimately, he's scum and he walked into this mess with his eyes wide open. It's fine to feel sorry for him, but I can't imagine not hating him.

[Ithekro]

What I find interesting is that this book was originally going to be released just after Redcloak realizes his err in judgement towards the hobgoblins and charges the Wall himself. And yet before a certain fallen Paladin commits her final act.

[Porthos]

What I find interesting is that this book was originally going to be released just after Redcloak realizes his err in judgement towards the hobgoblins and charges the Wall himself. And yet before a certain fallen Paladin commits her final act.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing myself. :smallsmile: It makes for a interesting development in the psyche of Redcloak. As well as bringing a whole new dimension to the phrase "I'm acting just like Xykon". :smalltongue:

[dan4ster]

I got the book a week ago, read it in one night...then reread it the next day...:P ... After some digestion, I have some comments:

To the Giant: Absolutely blew me away. It was 100% worth the wait (I also appreciate your updates on what was going on, thanks). I expected Good ole' badguy humour as in the strip, with some plot details explained, but it was so much more than that. It certainly made Xykon way more of a badguy than ever. Absolutely loved it.

The biggest thing I noticed was that it changed my view on Xykon. Before reading SoD, Xykon was the villain who, despite all of his atrocities, was still funny and almost lovable. During the Team Xykon sequences, I rooted for him as I would have the OotS. However, after reading SoD, Xykon is now a true villain in my eyes. His atrocities are no less horrible, but I think what really got me was his treatment of Redcloak and the Goblins.

I guess I'm a Redcloak fan, and after reading SoD, I kinda feel sorry for him. Especially after what he lets Xykon do. Especially after the last scene. And to add icing on the cake, there is an irony to it all...
... and here it is:
Redcloak is the agent of his own destruction. He was the one who turned Xykon into a lich. He was the onw who allowed the continuance of Xykon's exploitation of the Goblins. It's sad that he's so willing to sacrifice it all to save his race...at the expense of everyone else. *Sigh* then again, he never was supposed to be a protagonist... :p



Overall, I loved it. It had the right mix of drama, humour and plot to make it an excellent read. I recommend it to all OotS readers!

[SteveMB]

Now with all of that being said, I don't hate him, per se. Pity him? Yep. But it's more of a case of being profoundly disappointed. Redcloak could have been a tremendous force for positive change for the goblin people. But he's (so far) thrown it all away due to his bigotry and his cowardice.

And yet if he'd been a bit more bigoted ("Forget it, little brother; we aren't working with a human and that's that!") or cowardly ("Better call off the attack; this wild card is pushing the stakes too high."), he wouldn't have gotten himself into this mess.

[chorpler]

A question about Xykon's lichdom ...

When Xykon shakes Redcloak's hand right after becoming a lich, and right after paralyzing Right-Eye and killing all those other goblins, Redcloak just gets the BZZT! sound and says "GAH!" How come he isn't paralyzed? Is a lich able to control whether or not his touch paralyzes somebody? Or does Redcloak simply have some ability to resist the paralysis that his brother lacked?

[SolkaTruesilver]

So it is quite easy to hate Redcloak after reading this book. Because he has betrayed the goblin people he is supposedly fighting for time and time again. Through both his actions and his inactions he has allowed the deaths of untold goblins. And what has he got to show for it? Nothing in SoD and a wasted piece of real estate in the main comic (that probably will get retaken by the Nobel Fleet).


Let's get a Miko's way of reasonning for a second. If the Dark One didn't agreed with Redcloak's action, he would not grant him his power anymore. So the Dark One obviously supports these sacrifices, which means Redcloak isn't responsible of his action.

That way, anyone serving a deity and drawing magical power from them could refuse any responsability in their actions (except if their deity removed their magical powers), claiming that their God agreed/disagree to what they do. (Like Miko did, but she was even worse)

Anyway... just to say something, Rich. If you didn'T wanted to make me sympathetic to the bad guys, you BLEW IT. I feel terribly sorry for Redcloak.. specially the last lines of his brother.. who didn't even acknowledged him as his brother. He was simply "Redcloak" now.. I felt so sorry for him..

If I was a LG PC, I would tell Redcloak that I would try to help him make a better future for his race, at the condition he abandonned The Plan.. I know, I'm a stupid idealist..

I LOOOOOVE the :roach: s!!! From the tearing-and-spitting-on-the-rumbles of the 4th wall, to Star Trek's reference (masterfully done), to their ending appearance!!

[Sir_Norbert]

Wonderful. I agree with everyone else who's said this was by far and away the best OOTS book of the lot.

To answer the speculation about Xykon's soul gem: I think it's unlikely we'll see it again. It may have been destroyed when Xykon was thrown into the gate in #114, and if so, that's that. If not, then I'm afraid I don't think Xykon will magically find it in his new pockets when he regrows his body, so the only way out is that it fell out when Roy threw him into the gate, or that he'd put it somewhere. Either way, it got blown up when Elan hit the self-destruct rune.

Being the D&D novice, I don't know what the explosion would do -- destroy the soul gem along with the souls inside, or release them? Or maybe the gem is too strong to be destroyed. But if so, it's still there in the ruins of the castle, and no-one has a reason to go back there and happen upon it now.

[Porthos]

Being the D&D novice, I don't know what the explosion would do -- destroy the soul gem along with the souls inside, or release them? Or maybe the gem is too strong to be destroyed. But if so, it's still there in the ruins of the castle, and no-one has a reason to go back there and happen upon it now.


You draw the soul from a newly dead body and imprison it in a black sapphire gem. The subject must have been dead no more than 1 round per caster level. The soul, once trapped in the gem, cannot be returned through clone, raise dead, reincarnation, resurrection, true resurrection, or even a miracle or a wish. Only by destroying the gem or dispelling the spell on the gem can one free the soul (which is then still dead).

<G.I. Joe>
And knowing is half the battle! :smallcool:
</G.I. Joe>

[Pyrodragon]

Page 21-Panel 2: Elf with the headband....Wonder if its V.

[Winged One]

A question about Xykon's lichdom ...

When Xykon shakes Redcloak's hand right after becoming a lich, and right after paralyzing Right-Eye and killing all those other goblins, Redcloak just gets the BZZT! sound and says "GAH!" How come he isn't paralyzed? Is a lich able to control whether or not his touch paralyzes somebody? Or does Redcloak simply have some ability to resist the paralysis that his brother lacked?

A lich's paralyzing touch attack allows a fortitude save not to be paralyzed, and Redcloak, as a cleric, has a good fortitude save, while Right-eye, as a rogue, had a poor one. It's probably still not pleasent to be hit with, though, even if he saves(especially with the apparantly-homebrewed death effect on low-level targets). Additionally, the Crimson Mantle might protect it's wearer from paralysis in the same way it protects from magical disease and aging.

[Jefepato]

A question about Xykon's lichdom ...

When Xykon shakes Redcloak's hand right after becoming a lich, and right after paralyzing Right-Eye and killing all those other goblins, Redcloak just gets the BZZT! sound and says "GAH!" How come he isn't paralyzed? Is a lich able to control whether or not his touch paralyzes somebody? Or does Redcloak simply have some ability to resist the paralysis that his brother lacked?

The paralyzing touch is resisted by a Fortitude save. Clerics have good Fortitude saves; rogues do not.

[Kome]

Page 21-Panel 2: Elf with the headband....Wonder if its V.

Doubt it. Roy told everyone why they're going after Xykon - to fulfill the oath his father made because Xykon killed Fyron. V, having a high intelligence, would probably remember if he had ever been to a well-known (if only locally) Wizard's place. And V being the talker that he is would probably have said something at some point about it by now. Interesting idea, but I think it's a long shot. If only Rich had gone full color, we'd have another clue =)

[Genghis Cohen]

I don't understand how Xykon killed Dorukan. Isn't an epic level wizard smart enough to cast Death Ward (via Limited Wish) on himself before confronting a lich?

Also, the Bob Dylan reference by that roach was classic.

[BardicLasher]

Liches have TWO touch attacks. The first is paralysis. The second is 1d8+5 negative energy damage, which is what he did to Redcloak for the joy buzzer.

[Winged One]

Liches have TWO touch attacks. The first is paralysis. The second is 1d8+5 negative energy damage, which is what he did to Redcloak for the joy buzzer.

Yes, but even if he took Maximize Supernatural Ability or something, it should have just knocked average goblins into the far negative HP.


I don't understand how Xykon killed Dorukan. Isn't an epic level wizard smart enough to cast Death Ward (via Limited Wish) on himself before confronting a lich?

Sure, if he hadn't just popped in there the minute that Xykon showed he had Lirian's soul. He probably didn't even have Limited Wish or Wish prepared that day, since he was just expecting another day of ignoring Xykon.

[Genghis Cohen]

Sure, if he hadn't just popped in there the minute that Xykon showed he had Lirian's soul. He probably didn't even have Limited Wish or Wish prepared that day, since he was just expecting another day of ignoring Xykon.What would he have prepared? Quickened Maximized Ray of Frost? Limited Wish would be the first spell that I prepare with a 7th level slot if I don't know what to expect, or I'm not expecting anything.

Also, Dorukan should have a gumball machine full of pearls of power, and a quiver of metamagic rods of lesser extend and of extend to keep spells like Protection From Arrows, Protection From Energy (all types,) Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle Against Evil up 24/7.

Xykon gave him 60 seconds to prepare. On page 102 Dorukan says, "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived at my doorstep." He didn't seem very prepared.

[Winged One]

What would he have prepared? Quickened Maximized Ray of Frost? Limited Wish would be the first spell that I prepare with a 7th level slot if I don't know what to expect, or I'm not expecting anything.

Also, Dorukan should have a gumball machine full of pearls of power, and a quiver of metamagic rods of lesser extend and of extend to keep spells like Protection From Arrows, Protection From Energy (all types,) Freedom of Movement and Magic Circle Against Evil up 24/7.

Xykon gave him 60 seconds to prepare. On page 102 Dorukan says, "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived at my doorstep." He didn't seem very prepared.

He could have had Greater Scrying, Greater Teleport, Control Undead, Prismatic Spray, Spell Turning, and a lot of Delayed Blast Fireballs, for example. Limited Wish burns XP, and Dorukan was arrogant enough not to expect to need to waste XP on a sorcerer.

Yeah, he'd really have had all those magic items. Because building a dungeon costs nothing at all. And he doesn't have better things to do with his spell slots than use them on buffs for an enemy who, even if he were to charge into the dungeon, would still have to get through a crapload of traps and therefore rest and recover spell slots eventually. As the guardian of something that threatens all of existance if messed with, he has no reason at all to add additional magical traps while there's an enemy outside who will eventually run out of patience.

And wizards never lie about being fully prepared in order to seem more dangerous than they are, either.

[chorpler]

Thanks everybody.

So can a lich control whether or not his touch does either? Or does his touch automatically paralyze and deal 1d8+5 points of damage, unless the touchee makes a fortitude save for the paralysis?

[chorpler]

Another "I didn't get it" question, this time about Roy's dad ...

Why the heck was Mr. Belvedere following Roy's dad when he left the Sunken Valley after seeing the Oracle? I mean, I get the reference, as I used to watch that show when I was a kid, but when I read that I was like "Uh, where on earth did THAT come from?!"

[SteveMB]

Xykon gave him 60 seconds to prepare. On page 102 Dorukan says, "I've been preparing for this fight since you arrived at my doorstep." He didn't seem very prepared.

I would assume that his preparations were directed toward the scenario "Xykon runs out of patience and tries to force his way in through my defenses". They weren't quite up to dealing with the scenario "Xykon comes up with a reason to go out and face him in the open, with 60 seconds' worth of notice".

[Jefepato]

So can a lich control whether or not his touch does either? Or does his touch automatically paralyze and deal 1d8+5 points of damage, unless the touchee makes a fortitude save for the paralysis?

It's not entirely clear from the book, but I'd assume the former.

[SteveMB]

A lot of very insightful commentary there, Hyrael. And I agree with it 100%. :smallsmile:

I think the telling line is:"I didn't taste.... anything."

That was the precise moment that Xykon became a psychopath. Oh, as you say, he was plenty evil before. But it was a "earthy" sort of evil. It was one that, for lack of a better term, wallowed. I got a strong sense that he loved his earthly pleasures and when one was taken away from him (sex drive) he moved onto another (coffee). Mind you, he still delighted in the suffering of others, and you could see him engaging in the Sarcastic Wiseguy Evil that the lich version of Xykon is famous for.

But I don't think he was a true pschopath quite yet, although the seeds were definitely there. And even after he initally became a lich, he wasn't quite, well, insane yet. IMO, it's because he hadn't realized what he had given up. Uptill the coffee incident, he felt that everything about becoming a lich was great (he was even joking around with Redcloak and Right-eye).
One thing that strikes me as interesting is how Xykon easily commented to Redcloak that losing "certain fleshy parts" wasn't a big deal because he'd already been impotent for years. A guy, particularly one as proud as Xykon, isn't going to be making casual comments about that to someone he's less than completely comfortable with.

[Seragon]

Just wanted to say, loved the book, my wife hated it. Not that she read it because if she reads it she would probably like it. She hated it because I couldn't put it down until I finished it. Life at my house for a day (took that long and you will see why in a sec.)

Pick up book, read a couple pages.

"Honey, you need to take out the garbage."

Take out trash, return to reading.

"Honey, you need to bathe the kids...are you reading that book again?"

Bathe the kids which is throw them in soapy water and read while I sit in teh bathroom...pause briefly to fish a kids or two out, tell them they didn't drown, just couldn't breath for a minute, they are fine and go back to my reading.

Finish bathing the kids, go back to reading.

"Honey, what do you want for dinner....are you reading that book AGAIN!!!"

The book was well worth the evil gazes from my wife I encoured until I finished.

[Fighteer]

Thanks everybody.

So can a lich control whether or not his touch does either? Or does his touch automatically paralyze and deal 1d8+5 points of damage, unless the touchee makes a fortitude save for the paralysis?
I swear I answered this before, but the post got lost.

A lich's touch attack (1d8+5 damage plus paralysis) is a Supernatural ability requiring a standard action to perform, and unless there is some specific rule otherwise, such abilities may be suppressed at will by the creature using or possessing them. In other words, Xykon doesn't have to zap everyone he touches - more to the point, he normally has to make a conscious choice to use the ability.

[Garland]

Just wanted to say, loved the book, my wife hated it. Not that she read it because if she reads it she would probably like it. She hated it because I couldn't put it down until I finished it. Life at my house for a day (took that long and you will see why in a sec.)

Pick up book, read a couple pages.

"Honey, you need to take out the garbage."

Take out trash, return to reading.

"Honey, you need to bathe the kids...are you reading that book again?"

Bathe the kids which is throw them in soapy water and read while I sit in teh bathroom...pause briefly to fish a kids or two out, tell them they didn't drown, just couldn't breath for a minute, they are fine and go back to my reading.

Finish bathing the kids, go back to reading.

"Honey, what do you want for dinner....are you reading that book AGAIN!!!"

The book was well worth the evil gazes from my wife I encoured until I finished.

Well, it IS an evil book.

[BardicLasher]

Another "I didn't get it" question, this time about Roy's dad ...

Why the heck was Mr. Belvedere following Roy's dad when he left the Sunken Valley after seeing the Oracle? I mean, I get the reference, as I used to watch that show when I was a kid, but when I read that I was like "Uh, where on earth did THAT come from?!"

You weren't SUPPOSED to get it. I'll point out that Roy's dad didn't get it, either.

[malakim2099]

You know, something just occurred to me...


I think that the gem holding Dorukan and Lirian did annihilate when it hit the gate. However, since the Snarl didn't kill them (but rather the ward), they went to the Upper Planes.

Which would explain how Soon would know where, exactly, the phylactery is. Because his former comrades communicated that to him. Being inside the gem with nothing else to do, the duo would definitely have heard where the phylactery was... Lirian alone should know since she was in the gem at the time of the diner fight.

Just something that clicked in my head today.

[Tach13]

I just got On the Origin of PC's and Startof Darkness this week (was out of work for a few months and had to wait on them). I liked Origin of PC's, but thought Start of Darkness was phenomenal. The only thing I didn't like was I hoped for something on the Linear Guild, but that means another orgin book can be hoped for. :)

Xycon is one twisted being, but now I've moved MITD past Belkar on my favorite list.
The two most powerful scenes for me was when Right Eye called Redcloak Redcloak as he died. May have read too much into it, but I thought that was him saying "you chose to be Redcload, who you were before is dead". And then when Redcloak animated Right Eye, it was horrific. Again Rich surprised me with how much he can make me care about the "bad guys".

[chorpler]

You know, something just occurred to me...


I think that the gem holding Dorukan and Lirian did annihilate when it hit the gate. However, since the Snarl didn't kill them (but rather the ward), they went to the Upper Planes.

Which would explain how Soon would know where, exactly, the phylactery is. Because his former comrades communicated that to him. Being inside the gem with nothing else to do, the duo would definitely have heard where the phylactery was... Lirian alone should know since she was in the gem at the time of the diner fight.

Just something that clicked in my head today.


You know, I always wondered how Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloak's holy symbol; presumably that was information they would keep extremely secret, and Xykon looked pretty shocked and horrified when he realized that Soon knew that. I thought maybe Soon had some powers of phylactery detection that I wasn't aware of, or something, but your explanation is more dramatically satisfying.

[chorpler]

You weren't SUPPOSED to get it. I'll point out that Roy's dad didn't get it, either.

But Roy's dad doesn't remember what happened in the Sunken Valley, either; I figured I must have missed some pun or something.

Are you saying that it was just entirely random and means nothing? That doesn't sound like the Order of the Stick ... even an apparent non-sequitur like "Fruit Pie the Sorcerer" was a parody of old Hostess ads featuring Fruit Pie the Magician who placated the bad guys with Fruit Pies. Surely there must be some reason Mr. Belvedere showed up, too?

[chorpler]

I swear I answered this before, but the post got lost.

A lich's touch attack (1d8+5 damage plus paralysis) is a Supernatural ability requiring a standard action to perform, and unless there is some specific rule otherwise, such abilities may be suppressed at will by the creature using or possessing them. In other words, Xykon doesn't have to zap everyone he touches - more to the point, he normally has to make a conscious choice to use the ability.

All right! That's good to know. Thanks for the definitive answer.

[Sir_Norbert]

I agree completely with Tach13's analysis of the Redcloak/Right-Eye moment; I thought just the same myself when I read it.

And I didn't think of it for myself, but I believe malakim is quite likely to be right about the soul gem.

[lavidor10]

I just finished this book, along with Origins, and thought it was brilliant.

I am feeling so sorry for Rc. I believe that when he put on the cloak, it placed a gentle hypnotism on him that forces him to put the Plan above all mortal life.

I saw on this thread suggestions that Rc's explanation of the Dark One's history and the history of his plan is propaganda and lies. I really don't see evidence for it. Is there anything in there that suggests all that Goblin Warlord stuff didn't happen, and that the human kings did not brutally and unhonourably murder him?

Also, I don't get panel 6 of page 87. Is this a reference to a gate in some movie?

[malakim2099]

I am feeling so sorry for Rc. I believe that when he put on the cloak, it placed a gentle hypnotism on him that forces him to put the Plan above all mortal life.

I saw on this thread suggestions that Rc's explanation of the Dark One's history and the history of his plan is propaganda and lies. I really don't see evidence for it. Is there anything in there that suggests all that Goblin Warlord stuff didn't happen, and that the human kings did not brutally and unhonourably murder him?

Also, I don't get panel 6 of page 87. Is this a reference to a gate in some movie?

Regarding RC, of COURSE he's going to get the Dark One's version of it. Naturally, the fact that the Dark One raised a massive army and marched to the gates of the human kingdoms doesn't exactly mean he came in peace and harmony... he IS Lawful Evil (presumably), remember. :smallamused:

As far as the panel you reference, I believe that should be the panel with the Stargate SG-1 crew...

[SteveMB]

I just finished this book, along with Origins, and thought it was brilliant.

I am feeling so sorry for Rc. I believe that when he put on the cloak, it placed a gentle hypnotism on him that forces him to put the Plan above all mortal life.

That's one interpretation of his immediate reaction to donning the cloak. (Another possibility is that he was overwhelmed by the rush of revelation, and had a classic religious experience that changed his whole outlook on life, not so different from what sometimes happens to people in the real world -- note that he had just been initiated as an acolyte of the Dark One's religion, which would seem to imply a proclivity in that direction.)


I saw on this thread suggestions that Rc's explanation of the Dark One's history and the history of his plan is propaganda and lies. I really don't see evidence for it. Is there anything in there that suggests all that Goblin Warlord stuff didn't happen, and that the human kings did not brutally and unhonourably murder him?

I think both Redcloak's telling and Shojo's telling are basically true, but each with a certain viewpoint bias in which facts are presented and emphasized.


Also, I don't get panel 6 of page 87. Is this a reference to a gate in some movie?

It's a reference to Stargate SG-1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stargate_sg-1)


Regarding RC, of COURSE he's going to get the Dark One's version of it. Naturally, the fact that the Dark One raised a massive army and marched to the gates of the human kingdoms doesn't exactly mean he came in peace and harmony... he IS Lawful Evil (presumably), remember. :smallamused:

I think it's possible that the Dark One tried to make a deal, for the same reason Redcloak agreed to duel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) the high priest of the Twelve Gods. If it worked, it would save a lot of his followers' lives -- if not, well, the army would still be there and ready for a fight.

[lavidor10]

Thanks Steve and Malakim. Heh, I just saw, in the scribble colour bit there's clear evidence that Rat, one of the 12 Gods, is evil. Wonder what Miko or the Sapphire Guard generally would think of that...

[nimby]

Y'know, we see Xykon's paralyzing touch killing people (they get x's for eyes!). Does that mean ugly is still alive and aware while at the tea party?

[Fighteer]

Y'know, we see Xykon's paralyzing touch killing people (they get x's for eyes!). Does that mean ugly is still alive and aware while at the tea party?
Xykon's touch attack deals 1d8+5 negative energy damage, and a target taking damage must make a Fortitude save or be permanently paralyzed. A low level target (such as a Hobgoblin or first level warrior/fighter) will normally be killed (or dropped, which is usually equivalent to death for NPCs) by this damage, whether they save versus the paralysis or not.

Technically, the damage could also apply to any spell that the lich delivered via a touch attack, so spells like chill touch or shocking grasp would be very nasty.

O'Chul had more than enough hit points to survive the damage from Xykon's touch, but he failed his save versus paralysis.

[berrew]

I'm just going to add my voice to the chorus. I read it through a couple of times, and it left me... disturbed. Which is a good thing. Xykon's portrayal is marvelous, and Redcloak's is a masterpiece. I never expected to read a Greek tragedy when I got my copy in the mail...

Rich mentioned in another place about how he was worried that revealing the early life of, say, Belkar, could result in a change in the way we view the characters. IMO, this book was a finely-detailed history, but left me with an even deeper "appreciation" for Xykon's inhuman Evil (using his capital-E), and with a deepened empathy for, but a *decreased* sympathy for, Redcloak.

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Rich.

Now, I must be off to read through it a bit again, thinking of a few spoilers listed here...

[Old Book]

Loved it, thoought it was brilliant. My favorite bit: Xykon, while still human, explaining that the only bit of real wisdom he'd picked up in a long life was that being an Evil bad-ass was fun, but that "if you can't enjoy the little things, what's the point?" And then, as a Lich, he can no longer enjoy the little things, and there's no longer a point to anything, and nothing left but being the baddest of bad asses.

And I bet he really liked that waitress while he was still alive, if only as an object of fantasy and as the smiling face that brought him coffee.

And just as I'm really feeling for him, he delivers the Bitch and Butch speech to Redcloak, and shows himself as a complete ****.

Just great work.

[Kavotruo]

I have a question to people who have readed SoD:

Could you tell me detail info of Right-eye's daughter?

[Sir_Norbert]

I have a question to people who have readed SoD:

Could you tell me detail info of Right-eye's daughter?
First appears on page 85. Seems to be about the same age as Right-Eye's younger son (Eriaxnikol). Her name is never mentioned. Last appears on page 96 being recruited into Xykon's army with the rest of Right-Eye's family; we're subsequently told that Right-Eye smuggled her to safety and she's "out there being raised by humans -- or worse!".

[nimby]

I bet she murdered the MitD and has taken over it's place, waiting for the perfect time to murder Xykon and avenge her father. Why do you think it's having a tea party?

[Kavotruo]

Thank you!

[SmartAlec]

You weren't SUPPOSED to get it. I'll point out that Roy's dad didn't get it, either.

What cracked me up was

Eugene's narration in the immediate panel, which reads "Belvedere had more hit points than I expected, but soon I was back on the trail."

Did he KILL Mr. Belvedere? I have this image of this frustrated wizard battering this butler to death with the tea tray!

[ingtar33]

What cracked me up was

Eugene's narration in the immediate panel, which reads "Belvedere had more hit points than I expected, but soon I was back on the trail."

Did he KILL Mr. Belvedere? I have this image of this frustrated wizard battering this butler to death with the tea tray!

that's what it meant, you got it right

Actually i was crying i was laughing so hard at that mental image.

[Kavotruo]

Another 3 questions:


1, When the Dark One start his plan?
2, How he know the secret of snarl?
3, How old is Right-eye's daughter now?

[Fighteer]

Another 3 questions:


1, When the Dark One start his plan?
2, How he know the secret of snarl?
3, How old is Right-eye's daughter now?

Huh? All three of these questions are answered in the book.
1. He started the Plan after his cleric got eaten by the Snarl and he learned the truth about it from the elder gods.
2. See 1.
3. Look at the chapter titles. They say how long ago each event took place. Do the math.

[Dalenthas]

Alright six pages and no one has yet mentioned....
Eugene is barred from getting into the afterlife because of the Blood Oath, and since it passed on to Roy, it make sense that Roy can't get in either. This leads me to believe we'll have at least one strip of Roy telling Eugine how badly he screwed up by taking the blood oath in the first place. It also kills any speculation that Roy would be happier in Celestia than alive... he doesn't really get the option because his dad is a ****.

Also, am I the only person that hopes we get too see Kayannarra again? You know, Right-Eye's wife's cousin?

There are soooo many plot threads that SoD opened up. I guaruntee you we'll see Right-Eye's daughter again. Probably in the elven lands.

Also, did anyone else notice that in the pan shot in 15 there are no dead paladins? I know that some died in the battle, but their deliberate absense froom that panel just goes to show how much of a massacre it was.

Edit:
Also,
Am I the only one that thought the repeated misspellings of Xykon was a poke at forumites who can't spell it right despite the fact its right in the comic? Especially Zykon and Xyklon. Seriously, where do they ge the L?rr

[Kavotruo]

Huh? All three of these questions are answered in the book.
1. He started the Plan after his cleric got eaten by the Snarl and he learned the truth about it from the elder gods.
2. See 1.
3. Look at the chapter titles. They say how long ago each event took place. Do the math.

But I don't have SoD...

[Alysar]

It wasn't until my second time reading through the book that I really noticed the numbers on the 'Test Your Strength' thing at the circus.

Funny!

[Porthos]

Alright six pages and no one has yet mentioned....
Eugene is barred from getting into the afterlife because of the Blood Oath, and since it passed on to Roy, it make sense that Roy can't get in either. This leads me to believe we'll have at least one strip of Roy telling Eugine how badly he screwed up by taking the blood oath in the first place. It also kills any speculation that Roy would be happier in Celestia than alive... he doesn't really get the option because his dad is a ****.


*cough*

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50319

*cough*

:smallbiggrin:

[Sir_Norbert]

How old is Right-eye's daughter now?

Indeterminate. She was a young child in a section dated "3 years ago" so is presumably now an older child / teenager, but no exact figure is given.


Am I the only one that thought the repeated misspellings of Xykon was a poke at forumites who can't spell it right despite the fact its right in the comic? Especially Zykon and Xyklon. Seriously, where do they ge the L?
Oh no, I thought exactly the same :)

[berrew]

Alright six pages and no one has yet mentioned....
Eugene is barred from getting into the afterlife because of the Blood Oath, and since it passed on to Roy, it make sense that Roy can't get in either. This leads me to believe we'll have at least one strip of Roy telling Eugine how badly he screwed up by taking the blood oath in the first place. It also kills any speculation that Roy would be happier in Celestia than alive... he doesn't really get the option because his dad is a ****.
Careful reading of the paragraphs in the book show that Eugene's oath only affects him. Notice:

"...that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted vengeance on..."

is not the same as

"Neither I nor my heirs shall rest, in this life or any other, until..."

[Dalenthas]

*cough*

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50319

*cough*

:smallbiggrin:

I stand corrected. Carry on.

[Kavotruo]

Very thanks!

[malakim2099]

Careful reading of the paragraphs in the book show that Eugene's oath only affects him. Notice:

"...that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted vengeance on..."

is not the same as

"Neither I nor my heirs shall rest, in this life or any other, until..."

Precisely. Roy is not bound by the oath... and a scene in the near future..
Where he basically looks very tempted to tell his dad to kiss off and stay in the Celestial Realms would be fun. HAH! I GOT IN SUCKA!

Of course he wouldn't, but the look on Eugene's face as Roy was walking past would be great!

[factotum]

I got a question about Xykon becoming a lich:


A spoof "bionic man" style readout lists a couple of dice rolls. One is 16d12, which is presumably Hit Dice and shows Xykon was already level 16 at the time he became a lich. The other one is 12d8, and I have no idea what that means. Anyone with more D&D knowledge than me have an idea?

[lavidor10]

I don't think these numbers mean anything.

Xykon had to have been at least level 18 at the time of his attack on Lirian, to cast Soul Bind. It doesn't make sense that he leveled up twice in the cell, unless it was all those goblins he buzzed that got him the XP...

[SteveMB]

Am I the only one that thought the repeated misspellings of Xykon was a poke at forumites who can't spell it right despite the fact its right in the comic?

I thought that was fairly obvious. :smallsmile:

[Shott]

No fancy speculations from me, because I'm sure everything has been covered before I got here =), but I just want to say that this book is amazing.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Wow. You know throughout the entire webcomic, and SoD up until his lichification, Xykon was a comidic villian. Humorisly psycotic, kind of like Belkar. After his lichification he just became...evil. Not funny, not comedic, not Belkaric. The Butch/Bitch line just made me hate him, and I'm usually completely unemotional towards fictional characters. Nevertheless, I see bloody, flaming armageddon in Xykon's future, as dirrected by the ressurected Order of the Scribble and Redcloak, who will probibly throw off the Crimson Mantle, announce his actual name, and completely own Xykon. But that won't happen until after Kraggor's Gate, so probibly around strip 700-1000.

[Wiggle]

Couple of quick ones.

Dunno why but the young black haired :xykon: reminds me of Jack White from The White Stripes and The Raconteurs.

Rich spelt Telekinesis incorrectly in the S-Men sequence - (he spelt it Telekinisis)

[Lord_Butters_I]

Rich spelt Telekinesis incorrectly in the S-Men sequence - (he spelt it Telekinisis)He also got the strength modifiers wrong in the hit-the-bell thing with :mitd:.

[kialos]

Perfect Timing! I got Sod and finished it right before 475 were TMITD Is saying "I like Stew" Nicely done! :smallsmile: *Claps*

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

DH and I were talking abut SoD on the way to the beach yesterday. Neither of us like the "Haley is Right-Eye's daughter" theory, so we came up with one of our own - Belkar is Right-Eye's daughter! :belkar:

[Max_Sinister]

Now that's just silly.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Now that's just silly.

Well, yeah. Of course. :belkar: But it would explain his nearly-permanent case of PMS.

[Deatheater]

SoD: Kicked ass. Brilliant. Words fail me. Except they don't.

Especially, the bit where

we finally understand Snape's reasons for wanting Voldemort dead. And it gives some insight into why he hates Harry so much...

Sorry! Wrong book! And that one's not even out yet! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously though, in all this discussion about alignment, we should remember two things:

1: OootS--and all related spinoffs--is a spoof of story telling via AD&D gaming.
2: Alignment itself was supposed to be a TOOL of rolepaying, not straightjacket--a way to manage and keep track of character actions/motivations. Somewhere along the line alignment turned into the end all/be all of character development.

So in consideration of the source and the mis-history of applying alignment to realistic characterization, I take ALL supposed alignments in OootS with more than a grain of salt. For instance, in SoD,

Most of the Gods who made the humanoids are "Good". Some even "Lawful Good". And yet they may races of thinking, feeling beings to be cannon fodder? WTF? Not "good" in my book. And one can't argue "well it was just one or two who were confused"--they ALL did it. Or at least we know of no dissenters. It looks like Rich is satirizing the dominant attitude of deities in fantasy games--"my way or the highway, alignment be damned".

All the Gods have a serious case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Ah, the moral of the story in macrocosm(Gods) and microcosm(Xykon). In such a world no one can claim the moral high ground. And as a result I have a weird hope:

I want Redcloak to succeed. Preferably without the good guys(the people we KNOW are good because of their actions/motivation, NOT because of alignment) dying. Assuming the Dark One is on the up and up. It is possible we(and Redcloak) are hearing extremely misleading propoganda. But if it is true, guess what? The Dark One is right and the other Gods have earned themselves a planet sized plate of crow. Let the Rocs come home to roost.

But I also want to see the look on Xykon's face when he realizes he's been rumbled--because once the gate is warped, the Dark One will be in control and Redclaok won't have any reason to be Xykon's "bitch". Oh, dear dear, dear--what will our favorite lich do? Well, probably kill something....

As for Xykon, I'd make the observation he wasn't exactly evil as a child. But he did get a taste of power at a ridiculously young age with no limiting factors. Basically he never had to learn how to get along or see other people as real, so his humanity got stunted. In fact look at his 'tude both pre and post lich--doesn't it remind one of a small child? Impatient, self-centered, no attention span---Xykon, literally, never grew up.

That said I want Xykon DEAD. He's been fun, he's entertaining, but he's a sadistic bastard. Rubbing Redcloak's nose into it was the limit. There is a difference between wanting to advance oneself amorally, and actually ENJOYING inflicting pain. That final exchange between Red and X was wrenching. X's right, damn him.

Generally when I read Rich's stories I judge the characters by their actions/motivations and leave the alignment out of it except where it enters as a gag. I was a DM for 10 years in the '90's. If I could do it all over again I would "disable" that gaming feature and reserve it as a purely administration tool of the DM. Radical surgery I know, but too often, like obsessing with "stat size", it has been a hinderance, not a help, to character development

Oh and my favorite quote from SoD:

Why has Cinco de Mayo broken out on my battlefield?:smalltongue:

[Estrosiath]

Wow. I have to admit this book altered the way I viewed Xykon. Not so funny anymore... But Evil (he deserves the capital E, for sure). He certainly is one of the most despicable villains I've seen; he truly has no redeeming factors. People before me already pointed out the strongest moments in the book (and I won't repeat them, mostly because I have no clue how to make my comments into 'spoilers), but I still wanted to say it was a brilliant, amazing book, with lots of things you don't get on a first reading (I read it twice in the same day, it was that good).

[Deatheater]

Wow. I have to admit this book altered the way I viewed Xykon. Not so funny anymore...

I was already getting there when he made the paladins in the throne room slaughter each other. But SoD drove it home...and yeah, it takes the micky out of the laugh.


(and I won't repeat them, mostly because I have no clue how to make my comments into 'spoilers), .

To hide spoilers: type (spoiler) your text you want to hide here (/spoiler) but instead of using (), use [] like you do with [QUOTE].

You can do it. :smallsmile:

[phlip]

It's a pillow, a rumpled blanket, and a teddy bear. At least, a soft toy of some sort. Technically it looks more like a frog than a bear.

I'm also curious about what it means. It's in a position where you might expect to see a dedication. Does Rich have kids?

Well, in that spot in OtOoPCs there was a ruler, and NCftPB had half a star. DCF just had a blue-and-purple rectangle.

Dedications don't usually go there... they generally go on a page by themselves, generally the right page, just after the title page.

[banjo1985]

Finally got my pre-order here in England yesterday, and all I can say is......wow, Xykon really is one genuine SOB aint he? I have mixed feelings about the book, I really don't like Xykon anymore, which is a shame, as I kind of liked the goofy but powerful evil guy he came across as in the main strip. But I don't really know how I feel about Redcloak anymore, it was all very.....heavy. I think I may have to have a second read.

[Doug Lampert]

:smallconfused:

I REALLY don't get how anyone could hate Redcloak after reading this book.


He's being cruelly manipulated by Xykon, and no matter how bad it looks that he killed his brother, he did it because he truly believes it would save goblin lives.

No, he did it to avoid facing the fact that he had made a mistake and needed to act to correct it. That's made very clear in the followup conversation with Xycon.

He had to destroy the village in order to save it? BAH! We call people who claim that sort of thing in the real world war criminals.

I understand why he's doing what he does and what he claims (even to himself) his motivations are. Understanding him != thinking is in any way justified. He needs to be killed. Not just for the good of all mankind, not just for the survival of the entire freaking world, but for the good of goblinkind too. Because the "villages" he's prepared to destroy include the soul of every living goblin.

[Maddgief]

It's an amazing book for sure- and as others have echoed- it totally changed my perspective on Xykon. Rich is kind of re-writing the character a bit- as I don't think he came across as such concentrated evil. Now though, and in retrospect, when reading the strips where he does something 'evil' it comes across as far more sinister, when it used to come across as somewhat comical prior to SoD.

[MaxKaladin]

This book lowered my opinion of both Xykon and Redcloak, actually. As others have said, Xykon doesn't seem so funny anmore now that we've seen what a truely EVIL (with a capital 'E', 'V', 'I' and 'L') bastard he is.

As for Redcloak, well, he just seems so... pathetic now. It's hard to explain, but he just seems so different now that I know more about his background -- especially compared to what we saw in the more recent strips.

[appending_doom]

I must say, I liked Origin... because it cleared up some great mysteries, but I loved SoD because it took two villains and transformed them into complex villains. People have already mentioned about how Xykon's transformation made him what he was, and how Redcloak's motivations brought him to where he is now.

Very Greek, I agree.

Great book, Rich!

[Nightgaunt]

This book lowered my opinion of both Xykon and Redcloak, actually. As others have said, Xykon doesn't seem so funny anmore now that we've seen what a truely EVIL (with a capital 'E', 'V', 'I' and 'L') bastard he is.

As for Redcloak, well, he just seems so... pathetic now. It's hard to explain, but he just seems so different now that I know more about his background -- especially compared to what we saw in the more recent strips.

It was an incredible book, I bought both Origins and Start as part of the same order. Origins I thought was passable, Start was brilliant.


The intro by Miko was absolutly fantastic.
The end scene certainly changed the way I look at Redcloak. I really thought Redcloak had a plan, and was cunningly manipulating Xykon to his own purposes. But now, he just looks like a broken shell of a man. His spirit crushed by Xykon. It alters the way I looked at the many steps he has taken up to this point.

Seems he is on a path to redemption lately though.

[Nail Not-Nale]

The scenes of Xykon's transformation into the lich were awesome.

Interesting...if Redcloak had found his zeal for goblin life, as he did during the siege of Azure City, during the events of SoD, how would things have turned out? Would Xykon still be alive (so to speak)?

[SteveMB]

how Redcloak's motivations brought him to where he is now

"Everything I did, I did for my people."

[Sylian]

I'd really like it if In the end, Redcloaks turns on Xykon, a sort of redemption. But the only way for Redcloak to truly be redeemed at this point, is by dying for it, sort of heroic sacrifice.

I was sad about his brother. All he wanted was to live a long, peaceful live. I also feel sory for the druid. She had to live in a gem for what, 30 years? Poor her... Could be worse, at least Xykon isn't using physical torment or sexual torment. Other than that, he's 100% evil. I find it interesting that some of you where shocked by him. After driving the paladins mad, I realised that he's totaly unredeemable. He is a lich after all. Redcloak is probably Lawful Evil. He does have a plan that isn't truly evil, but he uses evil to do it. He is sort of like Miko, "The end justifies the means".

[factotum]

Technically, Right-Eye...


DID lead a long life. He was, what, 46 when he died? Since 50 is apparently extreme old age for goblins, he wasn't long for this world anyway.

And he got 18 years of peace and contentment before Redcloak (and thus Xykon) found him again...

[Maddgief]

I'd like to append my comments about Rich re-writing the character. I've finally read all of the commentaries in all of the books (after being a long time fan, I ordered them all at once) and I have to say that he seems to have the whole thing pretty well planned out.

So he isn't necessarily re-writing the character of Xykon, but making him more robust and steering us- the audience- in the direction he wants us to go- that Xykon is not even remotely likable, but is an absolute horror.

I wonder though if this is more of a sign of Rich's maturity as a storyteller- sort of doing a do over with the character (through SoD) so that we're all on the same page as we continue to read the story. Thoughts?

[Fitzwalrus]

Page 21-Panel 2: Elf with the headband....Wonder if its V.

Ah, someone else did spot that! :smallamused:
Kinda hard to tell by the color scheme in a B&W comic, but touring a famous wizard's library certainly would be an appropriate way to spend an afternoon....

Giant: I continue to be amazed at the complex levels of humor, drama and emotion you continue to portray in what has to be one of the simplest art forms known to man. Very, very well done indeed.

[HomerHT]

Any BBEG I've ever made for a campaign looks like a complete wimp next to Xykon now. Rich, this book is so amazingly brilliant that any other description would not be fitting.

Awesome book. Wow.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

There are also several plot hooks and potential bullets for Checkov's gun that Rich left unresolved in the book:

1. The MitD is programmed to kill Redcloak if RC ever betrays Xykon. Hmmm...

2. Right-Eye isn't completely gone just yet... RC used Animate Dead, so is there a possibility that he may indeed grow the balls needed to bring back his own brother to take down Xykon?

3. Dorukan and Lirian aren't dead, just imprisoned in a gemstone.

4. Right-Eye has a daughter out there, waiting for a chance as well. I don't think it is Haley, since I'm pretty much convinced Haley is Girard Draketooth's grand-daughter.

I say bullets for Chechov's gun since it is more accurate than Deus ex Machina. Rich has shown anyone who bought the book these bullets, but to maintain the continuity, any and all have to be shown in the webcomic, or it will come out as lame as Godrick Griffendor's sword popping out of the Sorting Hat. (Or whatever the heck his name was. I forget now...)

[SteveMB]

There are also several plot hooks and potential bullets for Checkov's gun that Rich left unresolved in the book:


2. Right-Eye isn't completely gone just yet... RC used Animate Dead, so is there a possibility that he may indeed grow the balls needed to bring back his own brother to take down Xykon?

3. Dorukan and Lirian aren't dead, just imprisoned in a gemstone.


As far as we know, all the goblins (undead or otherwise) except Redcloak were caught in the self-destruct of the Dungeon of Dorukan.

If Xykon was carrying the soul gem when Roy threw him into the gate, it was presumably shattered along with Xykon himself. Apparently, it was Dorukan's wards and not the Snarl itself, or else Xykon's soul would have been destroyed and not returned to his phylactery -- if so, Dorukan and Lirian would have been freed.

[SteveMB]

Wow. I have to admit this book altered the way I viewed Xykon. Not so funny anymore... But Evil (he deserves the capital E, for sure). He certainly is one of the most despicable villains I've seen; he truly has no redeeming factors.

The metaphor of the Clown Prince Of Crime Joker vs. the Evil Psychotic Murderous Joker was invoked during the discussion of the Bouncy Ball of Madness.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

As far as we know, all the goblins (undead or otherwise) except Redcloak were caught in the self-destruct of the Dungeon of Dorukan.

If Xykon was carrying the soul gem when Roy threw him into the gate, it was presumably shattered along with Xykon himself. Apparently, it was Dorukan's wards and not the Snarl itself, or else Xykon's soul would have been destroyed and not returned to his phylactery -- if so, Dorukan and Lirian would have been freed.

OK, maybe Right-Eye was destroyed with the rest of the dungeon, but why go to the effort of showing him animated if he doesn't have anything else to do with the plot? Redcloak had already disobeyed a direct order, and Xykon was semi-cool with it. Burying or animating Right-Eye doesn't make Redcloak any less of Xykon's willing bitch. And Xykon and Redcloak both know it.

As for the gem shattering, hmmm... I don't know about that either. Xykon got his robes back, and tends to put stuff in the wrong pocket all the time. When Xykon began reforming his skeleton, his robe just seemed to appear right after he grew a spine and arms.

And I just found something interesting:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html

Read Roy's line in panel 7. ...so you killed him and his son in cold blood. (emphasis mine) A slip by Rich from the early days, or yet another plot point? There was no son in SoD that I remember, although Eugene was like a son to Fryon.

There is a danger to publishing AS you write. You may write yourself into a corner, or just leave a few things out there, floating. Tiny details might be just tiny details, or the story might hinge on a tiny detail.

[SteveMB]

OK, maybe Right-Eye was destroyed with the rest of the dungeon, but why go to the effort of showing him animated if he doesn't have anything else to do with the plot? Redcloak had already disobeyed a direct order, and Xykon was semi-cool with it. Burying or animating Right-Eye doesn't make Redcloak any less of Xykon's willing bitch. And Xykon and Redcloak both know it.
Animating Right-Eye demonstrated that Redcloak was indeed Xykon's bitch. Doing anything else would have indicated some spark of remaining defiance.

[Kish]

OK, maybe Right-Eye was destroyed with the rest of the dungeon, but why go to the effort of showing him animated if he doesn't have anything else to do with the plot? Redcloak had already disobeyed a direct order, and Xykon was semi-cool with it.


Xykon was anything but cool with it. He revealed that he actually knew what had happened in response to Redcloak's disobeying--because he didn't mind Redcloak lying to him, but he wasn't going to tolerate disobedience.

[Prospero7]

There are also several plot hooks and potential bullets for Checkov's gun that Rich left unresolved in the book:

1. The MitD is programmed to kill Redcloak if RC ever betrays Xykon. Hmmm...

I see that plot point as the MiTD is programmed to kill someone named Redcloak but what happens if Xykon triggers the Geas/whatever and Redcloak uses his real name when talking to MiTD?

The MiTD already seems to be predisposed to having long bouts of uncertainty and introspection. :smallbiggrin:

[Dalenthas]

I see that plot point as the MiTD is programmed to kill someone named Redcloak but what happens if Xykon triggers the Geas/whatever and Redcloak uses his real name when talking to MiTD?

The MiTD already seems to be predisposed to having long bouts of uncertainty and introspection. :smallbiggrin:

Ah, but Redcloak introduced himself to the MitD as Redcloak, and as far as we know he hasn't used his real name since Lirian's gate or earlier. Seeings how I doubt Xykon's spell requires a True Name to work properly, MitD shouldn't have any trouble identifying Redcloak as the same goblin that's been berating him for years.

Speaking of True Names, anyone want to take bets that it's important that neither Xykon nor Redcloak use their real names at some point in the future?

[ref]

What can I say? This book is amazing.

[warmachine]

Something that annoys me in many films are characters not doing something that would make sense to them. An ex-human lich behaving like a monster yet leading a tribe of goblins would need a good explanation. Start of Darkness provides this explanation without flaw. The use of brothers is cliched but I'm quite happy with solid story-telling, not avant garde.

My opinion of Redcloak has gone down - he is an unprincipled coward. When his brother thought he had to opportunity to destroy the monstrous Xykon, Redcloak should have helped him out of family loyalty, let alone save goblins from future sadism. Even if it didn't work, better to take that shot at freedom than spend the rest of your life asking "What if?" As you can imagine, I play a Cleric and a Paladin of Hieroneous.

I say that Redcloak should die a traitor's death. He gets no sympathy from me.

[SPoD]

Even if it didn't work, better to take that shot at freedom than spend the rest of your life asking "What if?"

I think this is, in all honesty, the point of Redcloak in SoD. He's someone who doesn't have the courage to admit his previous mistakes, and takes comfort in the status quo (even when that status quo is horribly detrimental to him). He is Lawful, in the negative sense of the word.

This is why he's at best, tragic, and at worst, despicable.

[Myrdhale]

I just loved SoD for the transformation it shows in Xykon.

He starts out more like the bumbling, random evil guy we all thought he was, just having fun with his evil, still aimlessly hurting for his own amusement, but in a much more contained way... Until he becomes a Litch... When he looses all his Humanity, not only does it make him more fearsome, but 1000x Darker. What really set it apart though, was that unlike so many other stories that just say "oh, he's a litch now, so he has got to be super-evil.." Rich's explanation of why Xykon twisted even more was Masterful. Just the small little detail, not being able to taste the Coffee, represents that Xykon gave up all the small pleasures he said he loved so much, the only thing that kept him in anyway from just... the random, soulless slaughter he begins in the next scene. It adds such an edge to him. you can still laugh alittle at his random evil, but now with a little more... concern :smalleek:

As for Redcloak, My opinion of him has gone done, but, the Xycological (hehe) he was manipulated and broken, by the one he thought he was manipulating in the beginning, makes his character more despicable, but also much stronger in depth and complexity. It explains the duality, why he's so loyal to Xykon, despite being much smarter and insightful.

Best scene imo? The rant Xykon dishes out as he pwns Dorukan. Even just reading it, I could hear the satisfaction in his voice as he took the guy down.


In short, I loved it. Rich, Keep on writting this story! it's become the high point of many of my days!

If you stop.... I'll cry.:smallfrown:

[warmachine]

I think this is, in all honesty, the point of Redcloak in SoD. He's someone who doesn't have the courage to admit his previous mistakes, and takes comfort in the status quo (even when that status quo is horribly detrimental to him). He is Lawful, in the negative sense of the word.

This is why he's at best, tragic, and at worst, despicable.
Quoted for Truth. Although anyone who doesn't already know this is in trouble.

[Icewalker]

There's a lot of stuff which looks like it's going to show up again in the online strips.


Redcloak has a niece out there, the daughter of his brother who he killed to defend Xykon.

Redcloak has misgivings about Xykon. This is the big one which we just know of in more detail due to SoD, especially about his brother.

We know Redcloak's real plan. Miko was right! Yay nihilism.

Xykon's knowledge has been revealed in somewhat better detail. It was previously somewhat challenging to distinguish between different kinds of intelligence on Xykon's part, but what I got out of SoD is that Xykon is actually quite smart, and extremely cunning, but doesn't think ahead and has no mind for strategy.

Some of em seem a little obvious. I feel like there were others. I'll probably come back when I read it again.

[John Campbell]

The two most powerful scenes for me was when Right Eye called Redcloak Redcloak as he died. May have read too much into it, but I thought that was him saying "you chose to be Redcload, who you were before is dead". And then when Redcloak animated Right Eye, it was horrific. Again Rich surprised me with how much he can make me care about the "bad guys".
More than that - Redcloak calls Right-Eye "brother"; Right-Eye calls Redcloak "Redcloak". He's denying not just Redcloak's previous identity, but their blood relationship as well.

[SteveMB]

My opinion of Redcloak has gone down - he is an unprincipled coward. When his brother thought he had to opportunity to destroy the monstrous Xykon, Redcloak should have helped him out of family loyalty, let alone save goblins from future sadism. Even if it didn't work, better to take that shot at freedom than spend the rest of your life asking "What if?" As you can imagine, I play a Cleric and a Paladin of Hieroneous.

It turns out that if he had, the attempt would almost certainly have failed (Xykon actually knew what was happening, and had a protection against Right-Eye's dagger), and almost certainly resulted in Xykon killing all the goblins in reprisal.

[factotum]

He didn't know that would be the case when he killed his brother, though. And it's not like the goblins got to enjoy a long, prosperous life in any case, is it? Those that survived Xykon and the Order of the Stick were almost certainly killed when the whole place went kablooey.

[warmachine]

One cannot guard against all possibilities - there is always something that could happen, something that could go wrong. If one waited for a guaranteed success, one'd never do anything. To change anything, there comes a time when the planning has no more use and one must jump. That Redcloak's brother was doomed from the start is not relevant as he couldn't have known this. A man, or goblin, should be judged on what he could have known and done at the time, not for discovering he was lucky.

Knowledge, wisdom, strength, magic or power are worthless without the will to use them. Redcloak, a cleric of all professions, should know this. Or rather, he did but actively did something despicable rather than take the risk and that makes him a liability to his own race. As I wrote before, he should die a traitor's death.

[Ithekro]

I find it interesting to contrast Redcloak from his early days and through the book to how he was when the comic started. It is almost like he's slowly returning to how he was. I don't think he says "Lord Xykon" anymore, and has turned from being a more or less subserviant high minion to being on the reigns of power. Especially after he figured out he was killing hobgoblins like Xykon would kill goblins...or just about anything really. I think Xykon mentioned this early on before he regenerated. Something about growing a spine, where Redcloak's scarcasm hits with a replay on the order of maybe he got hit by part of Xykon's when Xykon blew up.

There relationship has become more partner like than master and slave like. Almost friendly even.

Paraphrased:
:redcloak: "I'm gonna go sink their last boat. Wanna come?"
:xykon: "Nah."
:redcloak: "Ok, back in a few."

Sounds like old buddies when one's going to go out to the hardware store for something.

[Myrdhale]

it may be because he's starting to actually believe he can succeed again.

when Xykon Came back and enslaved all the goblins, Redcloak had admitted that the plan wasn't worth it, probably wouldn't succeed, and essentially agreed with his brother. He was broken, and really only cared about protecting his own fragile Ego from admitting that his choice caused all this suffering. But now, on the Brink of success, twice, he starting to think the Plan will work, and he can redeem himself with the Help of his God, making all the sacrifices worth it.

His guilt is dissapearing, because if he wins, then, he can forgive himself

just what I think, anyway

[SteveMB]

That Redcloak's brother was doomed from the start is not relevant as he couldn't have known this. A man, or goblin, should be judged on what he could have known and done at the time, not for discovering he was lucky.

True; my point is that learning that Right-eye was doomed from the start makes it easy for Redcloak to rationalize that he did the right thing.

[Helgraf]

By the way, something revealing I've noticed about Redcloak and, by extension, the Dark One.

Redcloak can smite and casts disintegrate, so he almost certainly has the Destruction domain. In light of this fact, I find the Lore of the Crimson Mantle difficult to believe -- the Dark One as described there really doesn't sound like the destructive sort.

Similarly, he casts hold monster, so unless he's got a non-core domain (certainly possible, I suppose), his second domain is Law.

Rebuttal:

This said, he did say "It's something I can only do once a day" so it could just as easily be a granted power of the mantle and nothing to do with his domain selections.

[holywhippet]

The waitress that Xykon "killed" - wasn't she a devil/demon like Sabine? If so, how could she die? Aside from her natural resistance to magic, she's an extraplanar creature. She should have been forced back to her home plane. I can only guess she might have been a tiefling.

Would the Goblin god still be around if the Snarl destroyed the world again? My impression is that the other gods (except for the elven ones) exist regardless of their worshippers but he and the elven gods are deified by virtue of having worshippers. If they died, wouldn't that remove all of his powers? Heck, their souls would be destroyed so he wouldn't even have their spirits to aid him.

I wouldn't count on Redcloak's niece popping up in the comic. At the start of the book Rich states that you won't need the knowledge contained in the book for the comic and having his niece pop up would require a fair bit of background story.

[ref]

Maybe Xykon planned to capture the whole order of the scribble in the same gem for some reason. The battle with Soon failed horribly, though. We've now seen battle three of them, an the score is 2-1, we don't know if he would have Soul-bound Soon if he had won..."

Edit: Fixing Spoiler tags.

[holywhippet]

Another contradiction I noticed. When he's talking to Roy in Origins of the PCs, Eugene tells him that Xykon is drastically stronger than he ever was. But the first, last and only time that he meets Xykon is when he steals the crown and zombifies his master. Was Xykon really so strong at that point that even after decades of study Eugene still doesn't think he's a match? You'd think he would have studied spells that are specifically designed to take out a lich.

For that matter, wouldn't a wish spell have been able to recover the body of his former master?

[Porthos]

For that matter, wouldn't a wish spell have been able to recover the body of his former master?


What? You think they hand out Wish spells like they were candy, or something? It's not exactly easy to get ahold of one you know. :smalltongue: Besides, we have no indication that Eugene actually reached 17th level (and many indications that he didn't). And if he didn't reach 17th level, then he would have to find someone capable of casting the spell.

Anyway, no, Wish cannot bring back someone when you don't have the body:


Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.

I suppose there is a bit of wiggle room in the "destroyed the body" bit. But it still would take two Wishes (or a Wish followed by a Resurrection). Which is really, really expensive.

So, you would probably need a True Resurrection spell to get the "I lost the body - can I still bring him back to life" spell. And finding someone who is able to cast True Resurrection is just as hard as finding someone who can cast Wish. :smallamused:

[factotum]

Would the Goblin god still be around if the Snarl destroyed the world again? My impression is that the other gods (except for the elven ones) exist regardless of their worshippers but he and the elven gods are deified by virtue of having worshippers. If they died, wouldn't that remove all of his powers? Heck, their souls would be destroyed so he wouldn't even have their spirits to aid him.




The impression I got is that they became gods through intense emotion--for example, the Dark One certainly wasn't worshipped at the time he became a god; as far as his followers were concerned he was just a mortal leader who had been treacherously killed by the humans. I think the idea is that an enormous surge of emotional energy can CREATE a god, but the god does not then need constant input of that energy to exist.

[banjo1985]

I'm not sure whether anyone else has mentioned this, but on reading through the book again, I've noticed something that might be significant, or at least interesting...

On page 21 in panel 2:
...when Fyron is doing a tour of his library, it's fairly easy to spot Xykon in the crowd. But look a couple of people to the right of him...I'sn't that Vaarsuvius?! It looks like him from behind, and as a wizard he'd have reason to be there.

I'm just wondering if it means anything...

[holywhippet]

What? You think they hand out Wish spells like they were candy, or something? It's not exactly easy to get ahold of one you know. :smalltongue: Besides, we have no indication that Eugene actually reached 17th level (and many indications that he didn't). And if he didn't reach 17th level, then he would have to find someone capable of casting the spell.

Anyway, no, Wish cannot bring back someone when you don't have the body:


That's my point though. You could use a wish along the lines of "I wish for the body of my former master to be brought before me intact and alone.

These remains could then be used for a ressurection spell.

Failing that, could you use scrying magic to locate the body? It's clear that Xykon doesn't employ anti-scrying magic.

[Porthos]

That's my point though. You could use a wish along the lines of "I wish for the body of my former master to be brought before me intact and alone.

These remains could then be used for a ressurection spell.

Failing that, could you use scrying magic to locate the body? It's clear that Xykon doesn't employ anti-scrying magic.


But my basic point still stands. How the heck would Eugene get ahold of even a single Wish spell? They're very rare, and (via scroll) very expensive. As for Scrying, I don't got an answer for that one. :smalltongue:

[holywhippet]

Another oddity, when Redcloak threatened to smash the phylactery Xykon called his bluff and told him that his soul wasn't in the phylactery at that time so destroying it wouldn't matter. I was under the impression that phylactery's were the hiding place for the soul at all times and that the soul only returns to the body of the lich when the phylactery is destroyed. It would still mean they'd have to defeat Xykon though.

[SPoD]

Another oddity, when Redcloak threatened to smash the phylactery Xykon called his bluff and told him that his soul wasn't in the phylactery at that time so destroying it wouldn't matter. I was under the impression that phylactery's were the hiding place for the soul at all times and that the soul only returns to the body of the lich when the phylactery is destroyed. It would still mean they'd have to defeat Xykon though.



Well, obviously, your impression isn't the way it is. It's not really spelled out in the Lich rules either way, so Rich chose the interpretation that fit his story better.

[holywhippet]

Well, obviously, your impression isn't the way it is. It's not really spelled out in the Lich rules either way, so Rich chose the interpretation that fit his story better.

From www.d20srd.org:



An integral part of becoming a lich is creating a magic phylactery in which the character stores its life force. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a lich for sure is to destroy its phylactery. Unless its phylactery is located and destroyed, a lich reappears 1d10 days after its apparent death.


To me that says it's soul is inside of the phylactery. What isn't clear is if the lich will instantly die when it is destroyed. To me it implies they have to be destroyed as well as their phylactery. Whenever I run across a Lich in an AD&D game it's always forced me to take them out after taking out the phylactery.

[malakim2099]

From www.d20srd.org:



To me that says it's soul is inside of the phylactery. What isn't clear is if the lich will instantly die when it is destroyed. To me it implies they have to be destroyed as well as their phylactery. Whenever I run across a Lich in an AD&D game it's always forced me to take them out after taking out the phylactery.

Well, think of the phylactery like a safety net. It keeps your soul from going to the Lower Planes when your body is destroyed.

Now, if your soul is in your body, and your phylactery is destroyed, you aren't inconvenienced right this moment. However, if you get killed, you no longer have the safety net keeping your soul on this plane. So, you'd need to take a break and make a new one ASAP. And they are EXPENSIVE. :smallamused:

[berrew]

Another contradiction I noticed. When he's talking to Roy in Origins of the PCs, Eugene tells him that Xykon is drastically stronger than he ever was. But the first, last and only time that he meets Xykon is when he steals the crown and zombifies his master. Was Xykon really so strong at that point that even after decades of study Eugene still doesn't think he's a match? You'd think he would have studied spells that are specifically designed to take out a lich.

For that matter, wouldn't a wish spell have been able to recover the body of his former master?
It's quite clear from the book that Eugene went through an "avenge my old master" phase early in his career, then ignored it for the rest of his life. It's not until he died that the fine print in the oath suddenly brought the geas back to the forefront.

[SteveMB]

It's quite clear from the book that Eugene went through an "avenge my old master" phase early in his career, then ignored it for the rest of his life. It's not until he died that the fine print in the oath suddenly brought the geas back to the forefront.

As I recall, in On The Origin of PCs, Eugene said that vengeance seemed less important when he started a family. In Start of Darkness, he said he would have ditched his family if he'd gotten a solid lead on Xykon.

The best way I can think of to reconcile these statements is that they were both meant, really, to needle Roy (the former one was in the context of telling Roy that he owes his existence to a failed contraceptive spell) rather than to convey information.

[Porthos]

In Start of Darkness, he said he would have ditched his family if he'd gotten a solid lead on Xykon.

The best way I can think of to reconcile these statements is that they were both meant, really, to needle Roy

Especially when you consider that he did get a solid lead about Xykon when Roy was eight years old.

I figure he also made that statement, partially becuase he was upset at himself for not going after Xykon when he finally had the chance. But, at the same time, he also had deep feelings for his son, and just couldn't up and leave him. Unfortunately, Eugene has no idea how to express his feelings of affection toward his son, so instead of trying to find a way of resolving his conflicted feelings, he makes a sarcastic quip to his son.

Eugene really is quite disfunctional (family-wise) when it comes down to it. He obviously loves his family very much and will do anything to protect them. But when it comes to matters of "inter-personal communication" he is a complete failure. Which, of course, is a source of frustration to him. And what does Eugene do when he is frustrated? Make a sarcastic/belittling remark, of course. Which just reinforces the whole situation, unfortunatly.

[holywhippet]

Eugene really is quite disfunctional (family-wise) when it comes down to it. He obviously loves his family very much and will do anything to protect them. But when it comes to matters of "inter-personal communication" he is a complete failure. Which, of course, is a source of frustration to him. And what does Eugene do when he is frustrated? Make a sarcastic/belittling remark, of course. Which just reinforces the whole situation, unfortunatly.

I don't agree with that at all. IMO, Eugene doesn't give a flying damn about his family. To him Roy was little more than a way of carrying on his legacy - he didn't care at all about Roy as an individual. Consider his actions when Roy was having his soccer match. Eugene didn't show up for the game, didn't research the game at all and didn't think it was remotely important since Roy would be training to be a mage. He only "cares" about his kids now since he can't rest in peace until the blood oath is fulfilled.

[chorpler]

I don't agree with that at all. IMO, Eugene doesn't give a flying damn about his family. To him Roy was little more than a way of carrying on his legacy - he didn't care at all about Roy as an individual. Consider his actions when Roy was having his soccer match. Eugene didn't show up for the game, didn't research the game at all and didn't think it was remotely important since Roy would be training to be a mage. He only "cares" about his kids now since he can't rest in peace until the blood oath is fulfilled.


But he did get a solid lead on Xykon and chose to do nothing about it because of his family. I think he does love Roy very much, he just isn't very good at expressing it now, because he was so upset and disappointed when it turned out that Roy was a fighter type, like Eugene's own father, rather than a thinky wizard type like Eugene himself. He loves Roy, he just has no way of relating to him and doesn't understand him at all.

[Porthos]

I don't agree with that at all. IMO, Eugene doesn't give a flying damn about his family. To him Roy was little more than a way of carrying on his legacy - he didn't care at all about Roy as an individual. Consider his actions when Roy was having his soccer match. Eugene didn't show up for the game, didn't research the game at all and didn't think it was remotely important since Roy would be training to be a mage. He only "cares" about his kids now since he can't rest in peace until the blood oath is fulfilled.


As chorpler pointed out, then why didn't Eugene go after Xykon once he got a lead if he "didn't give a flying damn" about his kids? To paraphrase Xykon, don't mistake lack of outward affection with not caring. :smalltongue:

Eugene was arrogant, obsessed with the big picture, and quick to launch a sarcastic quip. But if he didn't care about his kids, he wouldn't even attempted to go to the soccer game. He would have blown it off completely and just gotten drunk in the bar. Eugene is an overall good person (otherwise he wouldn't even be let close to heaven) that has one very big flaw: He does not know how to relate to people who disappoint/disagree with him.

He doesn't deal with frustration well. And when you consider that raising a child can often times be an excerise in frustration (especially when you realize that they aren't growing up to be exact clones of you), a person might be able to see why Eugene acted in the way he did. Does this understanding of his flaws excuse his behavor? Absolutely not. But it does put it in context.

Furthermore, reading between the lines, I think he really can't understand why anyone would be a Fighter when they could be a Earth Shattering Mage. He thinks that anyone who had the chance would want to learn magic. And since he, again quite literaly, can understand why anyone would be a "mere fighter", he gets frustrated... especially since it is own flesh and blood.

So Eugene is definietly guilty of trying to live Roy's life for him. He is absolutely guilty of not looking at the world through Roy's eyes. He should have tried to see just why Roy wanted to be a fighter. But he didn't/couldn't. And, now that I think about it, Eugene probably had a lot of difficulty raising Roy because Roy reminded him of his own father. Remember, Eugene and his dad did not get along. Well, Eugene probably wanted to make sure that his kid was more like him, and not his Old Man. Just imagine what Eugene was thinking when he saw his own flesh and blood start to take after The Physical Side of Things at an early age. He probably transferred a lot of his emotional issues that he had with his dad over to Roy.

Still, even with all of this being said, it is obvious that he still loved Roy. Otherwise he would have gone on to pursue Xykon when he had the chance. Oh, he probably told himself that he was trying to turn Roy into a Wizard "for his own good". He probably made many many self-justifications on trying to push Roy down a certain path. But that's all they were: Justifications. What he should have done is encourage Roy to be whatever he wanted to be, regardless of how much it might disapoint him.

Does all of this make Eugene a Bad Person? No. Just a Bad Parent. Or at least according to the tombstone seen in Origins, a Passable One. :smalltongue:

ETA:::::

IMO, someone can love someone else and still be profoundly disappointed in the way they are living their life. A person can care deeply for someone and still try to manipulate them toward a way of life that they think is "good for them". And a person can be willing to take a bullet for another person and still make a ton of sarcastic quips about them.

Now should someone do any/all of these things? Well, no, not really. But that's the thing with being human, we got to take the good with the bad. People don't always do the things that they "should" do. Especially when emotion gets involved.

And if Rich had not shown Eugene in the bar passionatley talking about family and how he can't endanger the life of his children, I might even be inclined to agree with you when it comes to Eugene/Roy. But that bar scene illuminated Eugene's a good deal of his character. Both for what he said and the fact that he didn't say it in front of his son. I guess I just feel that Eugene does not know how to deal with the "little things" in life. Unfortunately for everyone involved, it's often the "little things" that mean the most to a child.

[holywhippet]

I don't think he went after Xykon because he didn't care much about fulfilling his oath anymore. He was more interested in being an award winning mage than anything else. He turned up to the soccer game at all because his wife would have been even more pissed - and since she'd be his supply of food and sex he has to toe the line somewhat.

Here's a question - was Eugene already dead when he went to see Roy at fighters university? He told him that he'd be dying soon, but in SoD he reaches the afterlife and is told he can't go to his final rest due to an incomplete blood oath. If he'd already told Roy about it, why would he need to make a phone call to his eldest? For that matter, his first impulse is to phone Julia who he believes is the better choice. To me it only makes sense if he's already dead and is being given a chance to pass on a message.

[Porthos]

Here's a question - was Eugene already dead when he went to see Roy at fighters university?

He was still alive. In Origins, Eugene wasn't translucent and spoke directly that he was going to die "soon". In fact he talks directly about the Blood Oath of Vengence and how it will be passed down to his children. Also, the Epilogue takes place "3 years ago" while the scenes at Bash University take place "7 years ago". So, according to the timeline, Eugene is still alive.

Now as to how to you reconcile that with the Epilogue in SoD, you'd have to ask Rich himself about that. :smalltongue:

Maybe he figured that since he already had told Roy about it, that he would be able to weasel out of it. It's not like Eugene is above trying to pass a Cosmic Fast One past someone. Or maybe the Epilogue is going to lead to a scene we haven't seen yet (which would take place right around the time Roy and Durkon first hooked up).

[veggeek]

I just finished SoD. I thought it was brilliant. Best OoTS collection ever.

I've read through most of the posts above, but I didn't see something that I thought was sort of obvious.

The Azure City paladins traveled "more than a 1000 miles" to wipe out a single village of goblins. (Page 11, Frame 1). Why would they do that?

They were seeking the goblin with the red cloak.

I think that they got a warning from someone looking into the future that a goblin, with a red cloak, living in that village, would destroy Azure City, and they set out to prevent it. Unfortunately, as the tendency of prophecy, by trying to stop it, they caused the creation of Redcloak and the eventual destruction of the city.

Brilliant, Rich, brilliant.

[SPoD]

Now as to how to you reconcile that with the Epilogue in SoD, you'd have to ask Rich himself about that. :smalltongue:

Maybe he figured that since he already had told Roy about it, that he would be able to weasel out of it. It's not like Eugene is above trying to pass a Cosmic Fast One past someone. Or maybe the Epilogue is going to lead to a scene we haven't seen yet (which would take place right around the time Roy and Durkon first hooked up).

I can explain this one:

At the time of his death, per his conversation at Bash University, Eugene believed it would be Julia carrying on the Blood Oath of Vengeance. Yes, Roy had told him he was going to do it, but Eugene doesn't have any faith in Roy's ability. He doesn't even have faith that Roy would have managed to pass on the message to Julia, so he feels the need to call her personally.

The Epilogue of SoD was the realization that it doesn't matter who Eugene WANTED to carry on the quest, he was stuck with Roy. Hence, the comment that he should have been more supportive of him, if only for his own selfish reasons (i.e. so he can get into heaven).

[berrew]

As I recall, in On The Origin of PCs, Eugene said that vengeance seemed less important when he started a family. In Start of Darkness, he said he would have ditched his family if he'd gotten a solid lead on Xykon.

The best way I can think of to reconcile these statements is that they were both meant, really, to needle Roy (the former one was in the context of telling Roy that he owes his existence to a failed contraceptive spell) rather than to convey information.I was pretty much ignoring what Eugene says, as his dialog seems as illusory as his class - and paying more attention to his actions :).

[Bilgore]

It's all coming together now! Look at 480, and ask yourself: "Who else uses Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0186.html)?"

For so long, we've been expecting a Redcloak vs Durkon showdown, could it be Redcloak vs. V instead?

Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

I'm just saying...

[Khatoblepas]

I just got SoD, and after reading it....


Oh.. my.. god. That was one of the greatest stories ever written. Well worth the wait. Redcloak is shown to be less noble than I previously thought - I did empathise with him at bits, but overall I found his submission to Xykon rather sad, especially when he had originally wanted to control the sorcerer. His perpetual youth granted by the mantle seems to be as much a curse as Xykon's lichdom - while everyone else grew and matured, Redcloak is subhumed by The Plan, losing his identity and part of himself. I expect a time when Redcloak sheds his namesake and is laid bare by Xykon for it.

And talking of Xykon, wow. I never thought my opinion of someone could change so much. Before reading SoD, I found Xykon amusing and funny. But now... he leaves me feeling cold.

While he was a teenager, and an adult Xykon wasn't too bad - he was attractive and striking, and had sass and wit (High charisma in effect, there!) You could even go so far as to say he was a likable character. His evil was very careless and petty, instead of callous. What really stood out for me is when his frail, but very human face, got ripped off by his BARE HANDS, revealing the monstrosity he had become. From then on, I liked him less and less, and everything he did was abhorrent to me, and I usually like evil characters. He went from the cool-evil of a human sorcerer scorned by bookworms to the vile-evil.

I loved his speech to the wizard as he was spamming energy drain, though. It was quite satisfying to have him tell the wizards that their strategy meant nothing as long as they could be overcome by persistant plying of force. It was..gloriously evil. Constrast that to Redcloak's evil, which is mild in comparison. Redcloak has a vague idea of what to do, trying to achieve a noble goal through debasing himself and the rest of the goblin race, trying desperately to rationalise his actions. But unlike Miko, whose zealotry drove her to her death, Redcloak is now jaded and is going along with Xykon's goal of world domination, leaving his Plan on the sidelines.

Redcloak isn't himself anymore. He's resigned himself to.. well... being the Bearer of the Mantle.

Beautiful book. I applaud you, Rich.

Oh, and is it just me, or is Xykon really awesome when he was alive? I mean, he even keeps his natty hairstyles. Imagine keeping that spider-leg 'do well into your seventies. Brilliant, and I wish I could be so lucky when I'm older :P.


And
Heheh, "Xyklon The Concequential" is a pretty big misonomer, considering he only had one panel. :P Maybe 'Concequential' meant something else? I dunno. xD

[Belkar Rocks]

Got it yesterday, read it last night.

Mucho kudos, Rich. I won't go over the why, which has been covered in depth in this thread already, I'll just say that the plot was excellent.

[Lord Herman]

Now look what you've done. You stick figures have made me cry.
Redcloak killing his brother was a heart-breaking scene. I knew Right-Eye was going to die at some point (after all, we don't see him in the main storyline), but I hadn't expected Redcloak to do it. Xykon, maybe, but not Redcloak.

[Raeden]

One thing I don't understand. On the page before the preface, there is this funny little drawing of a strange baglike thing and a little doll. What is it? What does it refer to? It drives me crazy!

[chorpler]

[QUOTE=Bilgore;2992183]Or V teaming with Redcloak? Think about it.

Redcloak is a divine spellcaster, V is an arcane caster.
Redcloak really doesn't like Xykon, but doesn't see any other options at the moment.

Would making a deal with Redcloak be "saying the right words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)?"
Could "achieving complete and total arcane power" be the ability to sommon a god-killing abomination?

I must admit, that is a speculation that frightens me.

[chorpler]

One thing I don't understand. On the page before the preface, there is this funny little drawing of a strange baglike thing and a little doll. What is it? What does it refer to? It drives me crazy!

See post 183 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2903769&postcount=183) in this thread -- it's a rumpled blanket, a pillow, and a stuffed animal of some kind, possibly a frog. One theory is that it's a dedication to a child.

[ref]

There's one thing I'd like to comment. In the middle of the color insert... Xykon says he says he has to hit the bathroom because his "prostate is the size of a baby's head these days." Don't you think that's rather big for a prostate?

[Max_Sinister]

Just an exaggeration, as a figure of speech.