Griffon Cavalry

[Melcar]

I am in the midst of building a griffon cavalry unit, which is supposed to very elite. I have looked at the various classes concerning this, but I would very much like to hear your opinion on this.

The build is not totally set in stone, except for being level 12. My thoughts were level 4 fighter/ 8 paladin. Trying to get the Griffon to be the paladin’s mount thus getting the bonuses, from that class feature. I was also thinking that the griffon should have the warbeast template from MM2, thus gaining more speed HD, and str.

I am unsure of weapon since I’m actually not sure how attacking with a flying creature works. So suggestions here would be much appreciated. Also items for both the rider and beast is something that I would like ideas on.

And as always any general comments are welcome.

Btw we play in FR!

Thanks

[Gildedragon]

Bow and arrow would be great, considering they can fly. Or maybe a lance with wand Chambers. And nets, definitely use nets and bolos. You got air power, don't land the griffs

If you're doing paladin go straight paladin, the fighter levels aren't doing much there, and you might as well buff the mount.
Ranger might not be bad either, animal companion buffs and all

You might want to look into Sharn City of Towers. They have a griffon mounted elite force. You could crib their notes.

Items: com-badges or com-earings they are doing aerial maneuvers. Good communication is key.

Tricked-out bows: special materials for the bow and arrows. If PF stuff is legal: there is a martial discipline (path of war) that focuses on ranged combat. There's a stance from it that gives one infinite of any (mundane) arrows one has. Go for some rare materials: pandemonic silver, serren, etc...

Speed boosters for the griffs are a must.

[Yael]

In the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (1st party, I believe), there's a Griffon Rider prestige class.

If it is not in that book, try in another Dragonlance book, I'm pretty sure there was one around there, I can't help pointing it out because I am AFB, tho.

[ExLibrisMortis]

There is the Great Rift Skyguard, a hilariously terrible gold dwarf-only prestige class that focuses on abandoning your griffon mid-air. I say terrible, which it is, mechanically, but it's pretty awesome fluff-wise. This is a Faerûn prestige class, too.

More usefully: there is the Zhentarim Skymage, another Faerûn PrC. This is a legitimately powerful class with great charisma synergy, to go with your paladin. Paladin 2/sorcerer 4/spellsword 1/abjurant champion 1/zhentarim skymage 4 gets you a mount with 5 + charisma modifier HD, and it can be any mount whatsoever, provided that it can fly. Say your charisma is 22 (elite array 15, increases at level 4/8/12, +4 item/buff spell/whatever), that's an 11 HD mount, which can be an advanced (huge-sized!) griffon with a bazillion templates, as long as it's 11 HD. You also get 10th-level sorcerer casting (and Share Spells), and 9 base attack bonus, set up to go full abjurant champion, eventually getting 16 base attack/18th-level casting, so your officers will be badass gishes.

Oh, and your elite cavalry will be dashing as hell, so you'll have plenty of time to have swooning princes(ses) and such.

[Darrin]

In the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (1st party, I believe), there's a Griffon Rider prestige class.

If it is not in that book, try in another Dragonlance book, I'm pretty sure there was one around there, I can't help pointing it out because I am AFB, tho.

I think you mean Forgotten Realms. In Unapproachable East, there's the Aglarondan Griffon Rider. It's... not that great, but not as terrible as I thought it'd be. Free griffon, though!

There's also Knight of the Flying Hunt in Champions of Valor. You get a free pegasus and some magic armor but... the pegasus doesn't get any better, which is kinda odd for a mount-based PrC.

If you're looking for something non-FR, there's Windrider in Masters of the Wild. You have to provide the mount, but once you've got one, it gets HD, natural armor, and Strength increases, similar to a paladin's special mount (but no evasion, empathic link, shared spells, and so forth).

[frost890]

They are big enough to carry a bag full of bombs/acid/tangle foot bags/???. Bards and rogues are often overlooked. With a UMD check like with wands they can blast while the mount handles the upclose work. Weapon claws of ??? For the mount and use a wand to buff the mount.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

I personally like Ranger Knight of Furyondy, from Dragon #317. Ranger 5/RKoF 7 gives the same mount as a 12th level paladin, but with more skills and feats. You could even use mystic ranger (from one of the dragon mags) to have better spellcasting.

[Melcar]

Thank you so far for the answers. I do however have some follow up ones. But I want to say that I have not yet decided on the class build of the rider, and due to the list of great examples I will have to look into them before I decide, but for the more generic stuff here goes!

Assuming my above own build example of 4 fighter/ 8 paladin (in lack of a better choice yet), the Griffon would have 12 HD, giving me the choice of two feats. What feats would be wisest for a cavalry unit? I have so far thought of Fly-by attack and possible improved natural attack for the bite. I am also considering hover, but as a troop unit it does not seem so necessary. Thoughts?

The build would give a 10 ft. speed increase from the Warbeast template and a 10 ft. speed increase from the paladin would both speed increases affect both land and air speed? So far, I have found nothing indicating that its only land speed or that I would have to choose which speed it would affect. Can anyone clear this up for me?
What Items can I give my Griffons to increase its fly speed further, beyond the 100 ft. speed my example gives it?

As I have said I have not had time to look into all the great builds suggested, so therefore these questions are more of a generic order. Please do not interpret this as me neglecting all your great ideas. Every comment and suggestion are taken into consideration. I will however say that I’m looking for a military unit of a low magic sort, so build based on heavy arcane magic is not so interesting at this point.

[Buddy76]

Book of Exalted Deeds has the Skylord, a prc specializing in airbone mounted combat. It grants full bab and advances spellcasting every other level (you can have it advance paladin).
It has two problems, though: 1- The character has to be either an elf or half elf (I don't know if you want that)
2- The flying mounts it grants are all 4 HD celestial creatures. Maybe you can house rule something to get a 7HD mount (such as stacking paladin levels to Skylord ones)

[Gildedragon]

Thank you so far for the answers. I do however have some follow up ones. But I want to say that I have not yet decided on the class build of the rider, and due to the list of great examples I will have to look into them before I decide, but for the more generic stuff here goes!

Assuming my above own build example of 4 fighter/ 8 paladin (in lack of a better choice yet), the Griffon would have 12 HD, giving me the choice of two feats. What feats would be wisest for a cavalry unit? I have so far thought of Fly-by attack and possible improved natural attack for the bite. I am also considering hover, but as a troop unit it does not seem so necessary. Thoughts?

The build would give a 10 ft. speed increase from the Warbeast template and a 10 ft. speed increase from the paladin would both speed increases affect both land and air speed? So far, I have found nothing indicating that its only land speed or that I would have to choose which speed it would affect. Can anyone clear this up for me?
What Items can I give my Griffons to increase its fly speed further, beyond the 100 ft. speed my example gives it?

As I have said I have not had time to look into all the great builds suggested, so therefore these questions are more of a generic order. Please do not interpret this as me neglecting all your great ideas. Every comment and suggestion are taken into consideration. I will however say that I’m looking for a military unit of a low magic sort, so build based on heavy arcane magic is not so interesting at this point.

why the 4 levels of fighter though?

equipment: horseshoes of speed modified to fit a griffin

[Thurbane]

How tied to Griffins are you?

How about en elite force of Giant bat riding casters, using the Silverwood Arcanist PrC? :smallbiggrin:

[the_david]

8 levels Paladin to get Special Mount and Smite Evil.
8 Ranks in Handle Animal, 4 in Survival and the Skill Focus (Handle Animal) feat.
4 Levels of the Beastmaster prestige class to get an Animal Companion (as a 7th level Druid) and Wild Empathy.
Devoted Tracker feat at level 9. Your Griffon Mount now also counts as your Animal Companion, gaining all the benefits including hit dice.
Why the Acheron not? Toss in a Natural Bond feat at level 12 to raise your effective Druid level to 10.

You can find the Beastmaster prestige class, the Devoted Tracker feat and the Natural Bond feat in Complete Adventurer.

Technically, the Halfling Outrider prestige class adds to both Special Mount and Animal Companion, but that was clearly not RAI. Neither is this by the way. Proceed with caution.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

A good feat for your griffons is improved flight, from races of the wild. It boosts a griffon's maneuverability to good, allowing it hover as well in addition to the usual benefits. Another good one is Air Heritage from the Planar Handbook, which boosts fly speed by 30 ft. In addition, a pectoral of maneuverability would also boost the maneuverability rating, though at 12k a pop it's a bit pricy for a griffon air force.

Another direction to go is Expeditious Dodge/Mobility. That way your griffons are well protected against AoOs stemming from riding by while their riders jam sharp sticks into enemies. This only makes sense if your riders have Ride By Attack.

[daremetoidareyo]

Another feat option for the griffons is sacred vow and vow of poverty.

[Melcar]

There are so many great ideas. I do really like the thought of getting more HD for the beast, but I’m not really into the beastmaster fluff – is there perhaps another way?

If I am to abandon my initial flyby choice, I am going to do it for the right reasons and there seems to be quite stuff to consider. Not including all the excellent suggestion here.

I am unable to find a clear cut definition on whether or not one can charge as part of the flyby attack? (dive attack) The griffon has pounce so that would be awesome. It says that I can make a dive during flyby. So if I dive and attack is that not automatically a flying charge?

During Flyby attack, can the Rider attack as well?

I the rider uses ride-by attack, the rider gets a charge but the mount moves on, would it be possible to combine both ride-by and flyby, so the rider charges and the mount too would get an attack (preferably a charge too, if the attack came from a dive?)

What I’m trying to say, is that I want my mount and rider do what the giant eagles do here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggr7NpXdLeU) at 1:18 min. Or is this overrun or trample?

[Fuzzy McCoy]

So for a flyby attack, it's very clear what you can do. Take your standard action at some point during your move. That's it. That means you could not pounce with the griffon, and your rider can only make one melee attack. Since that attack is not a charge, it's at normal damage, so 1d8 + modifiers for a lance, let's say. Whereas if your griffon charges, they get to pounce, they end their turn next to an enemy, and your rider gets the special mounted charge bonus.

What those eagles appear to be doing is using the great flyby attack feat. Move your speed + attacks = Dex. With a griffon, it's only 2 attacks, so you do get another melee attack out of it, but at that point your rider is almost better off jumping off and fighting on the ground. It sounds like you'd like your griffon riders to more mounted infantry and less air force.

[Melcar]

So for a flyby attack, it's very clear what you can do. Take your standard action at some point during your move. That's it. That means you could not pounce with the griffon, and your rider can only make one melee attack. Since that attack is not a charge, it's at normal damage, so 1d8 + modifiers for a lance, let's say. Whereas if your griffon charges, they get to pounce, they end their turn next to an enemy, and your rider gets the special mounted charge bonus.

Followup questions:

Can we agree that one can make a dive with flyby (i.e. double damage, but not pouce)? Flyby attack says: "When flying, the creature can take a move action (including a dive) and another standard action at any point during the move."

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage.

Do my rider also get an attack when using flyby attack, or is it only my mount?

Is there actually anyway of getting my mount to pounce while flybying?




It sounds like you'd like your griffon riders to more mounted infantry and less air force.

Air force as in some ranged attack from the sky, then yes, my idea was a melee type build. The reason for this is, that the arial bombardment is done by flying invisible wizards and well thats not quite what I'm going for... I will say though that I am looking into all of the builds suggested here....

[daremetoidareyo]

So for a flyby attack, it's very clear what you can do. Take your standard action at some point during your move. That's it. That means you could not pounce with the griffon, and your rider can only make one melee attack. Since that attack is not a charge, it's at normal damage, so 1d8 + modifiers for a lance, let's say. Whereas if your griffon charges, they get to pounce, they end their turn next to an enemy, and your rider gets the special mounted charge bonus.

What those eagles appear to be doing is using the great flyby attack feat. Move your speed + attacks = Dex. With a griffon, it's only 2 attacks, so you do get another melee attack out of it, but at that point your rider is almost better off jumping off and fighting on the ground. It sounds like you'd like your griffon riders to more mounted infantry and less air force.

Martial study: literally any standard action martial adept ability seems like it would pair nicely with flyby attack

[BowStreetRunner]

Martial study: literally any standard action martial adept ability seems like it would pair nicely with flyby attack

Except the Stone Dragon maneuvers. "Stone Dragon maneuvers can be initiated only if you are in contact with the ground." (ToB p 81)

[Melcar]

Ok…

So after trying to review all the ideas presented here. I think I have decided trying going for a 2 Paladin, 6 cavalier, 5 Windrider and 3 Beastmaster. As you can see, I have raised the level a bit. I Was not satisfied with the power of only level 12, which somehow didn’t give my all that I wanted, being a small, exclusive, very elite unit an all. Any comments on this preliminary build/choice will be greatly appreciated.

But since I am using a Griffon, the math of the level depending bonuses is a little more complicated than just a regular heavy warhorse, so I have some questions:

NB: The griffon has the celestial and warbeast template, making it HD 8, CR 6. Or more correctly, they will at some point after their come online as a special mount have the two templates applied. Warbeast through part of the training as a military unit and celestial through the rider’s feat selection.

As an effective level 13 paladin, how many HD bonuses would my griffon get from being a special mount?

As an effective level 9 druid, how many HD bonuses would my griffon get for being an animal companion?

[Andezzar]

There is the Great Rift Skyguard, a hilariously terrible gold dwarf-only prestige class that focuses on abandoning your griffon mid-air. I say terrible, which it is, mechanically, but it's pretty awesome fluff-wise. This is a Faerûn prestige class, too.Define terrible? It is not worse than more fighter levels.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Define terrible? It is not worse than more fighter levels.
Well, that is in itself pretty terrible. After all, fighter levels 7-16 aren't exactly top-notch, and for the PrC, you're paying a feat to get in (Toughness). In addition, you could say that Great Rift Skyguard levels are only ever useful if you want to do exactly that one thing the class is more-or-less set up to do, which makes it worse - no versatility, no options. Even if you only want to be the dive-bomb dwarf, it's worse than taking levels in something that advances paladin mount or druid companion, or just Zhentarim Skymage or something. In short: it's a bad tier 5, and that's terrible.

[Yael]

I think you mean Forgotten Realms. In Unapproachable East, there's the Aglarondan Griffon Rider. It's... not that great, but not as terrible as I thought it'd be. Free griffon, though!

There's also Knight of the Flying Hunt in Champions of Valor. You get a free pegasus and some magic armor but... the pegasus doesn't get any better, which is kinda odd for a mount-based PrC.

If you're looking for something non-FR, there's Windrider in Masters of the Wild. You have to provide the mount, but once you've got one, it gets HD, natural armor, and Strength increases, similar to a paladin's special mount (but no evasion, empathic link, shared spells, and so forth).

Oh, you were right. Silly me.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Also see this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?482949-How-to-equip-Griffon-Air-Cavalry). It's less numbers and rules based, but it may still provide inspiration.