Whose gate do you feel was best/worst defended?

[Christopher K.]

As Lord Shojo described it, each member of the Order of the Scribble had a very clear idea of how the gates could best be defended. We've seen(at their best-defended) Lirian, Dorian, and Soon's gates, as well as the entrance to Kraagor's Tomb(granted, we only know about its defenses at a conceptual level currently) and the remains of Girard's after the results of Familicide(which was still somewhat decently protected in the pyramid).

That in mind, which method of defense do you think are most/least effective?

For most effective, I think Girard's pyramid was best defended(prior to V's Familicide) since it boasted illusions, a hostile environment(a couple days' trek in the desert to a false location which would blow you up if Girard suspected you were from the Sapphire Guard, or even so another march on foot through the Windy Canyon filled with illusory dead ends), and plenty of traps in the actual pyramid to take advantage of people suckered by the illusions.

As for least effective, I'd say Dorukan's gate was probably the least effective, since it not only has secret passages and service tunnels all over(including a direct path from the throne room to the surface), but had a deliberate hole in the Cloister effect for Dorukan's romantic interests, and housed several artifacts(or at least Dorukan's talisman, but Celia said there were other vaults as well) which I think could have been utilized to defend the Gate.

[NerdyKris]

I think you're missing the point if you think any gate was the "best" defended. The best defense would have been a combination of all the elements, along with constant communication between them. The way the Order of the Scribble fell apart and refused to continue working together is supposed to be a bad way of handling the situation. Every gate had severe weaknesses that were exploited each time.

[dancrilis]

Lirian's was the worst in my mind:

She attached it to living creatures who broke it (and could have gotten bored and done that at any time being free willed creatures), her defences were effectively dealt with by low level goblins - the only true threat was herself (who granted being a elf would live a while).

Soon's was the best in my mind:
A secret order of paladins dedicated to preemptively eliminating threats, linking the gate to the center of power so regardless of who held the thrown (even if they didn't know about the gate which may have happened if the leader got assassinated) so it would be protected, and situated in a prominent city which would not present a soft target for most, and than himself and a legion of all the deceased members of the paladin order to defend it.
It was a tough cookie to crack.

Where the other three lie?
We don't know about Dorukan's as his defense likely intended to include himself, but as such it had a single point of weakness (himself). I will say that his was second weakest.
Girard likely next as at least he had a clear plan for his death and if any individual died it would not be an issue.

For Kraagor I am not sure - for all we know Serini coded her diary to point to his tomb rather than the gate as a bit of misdirection in case it fell into the wrong hands (and had the other ones correct as it was her diary in case she wanted to find them). I am tieing it with Girard's at the moment - but could easily go up or down in my estimation.

[hroþila]

Funny that you should say Dorukan's Gate had the worst defenses, when Xykon actually went out of his way to avoid them and made a point of only entering the dungeon after killing Dorukan. Who knows how much cleaning up was necessary off-panel, between SoD and DCF.

Lirian's Gate, now that was poorly thought-out. Great against mortal spellcasters (if we ignore the structural problems of the Gate itself), not so good against anything else.

[Gift Jeraff]

Dorukan managed to posthumously stump Xykon for 6 months.

Girard's Gate was borderline defenseless within 3 weeks of its guardians' deaths.

[Murk]

I would rank them based on sustainability. No matter how well the gates are/were defended, would they still be after thousands of years?

Lirians idea of using the ecosystem to defend the gate was pretty good in that regard - ecosystems, if large enough, are of course the top of sustainability - if let alone. They are also pretty fragile, as the forest fire showed.

Dorukans gate only had the sigil in terms of sustainability. Himself and all the help he'd get would die eventually, and the gate would be a sitting duck with only the one sigil (no matter how well thought-out).

Girard's gate would, it seems, always keep the illusions, but I'm thinking the family would eventually lose their sense of purpose. If your forefathers, tens of generations ago, lived here to defend some kind of gate (that you have never seen), would you still be as eager as them? After thousands of years, I think their determination would be watered down, until eventually, they'd leave.

The same goes for Soons order. While "a paladin order" is more general than "a family protecting a gate", and thus has a more long-lasting purpose, I think "defending the gate" would lose priority over time. The story of the gates would turn to legend and myth and eventually just a funny origin story. While the paladins would undoubtedly keep on doing good, I think eventually they would forget about protecting the gate, and thus making it highly vulnerable for someone who knows where to look.

Serini's gate, well, that remains to be seen. If there really is some respawn-system for the monsters, that might actually be best in terms of durability. If not, it is probably the worst: every time someone comes along and kills just one monster, the defense of the gate gets weaker. Stretched over thousand years, that leaves the gate defenseless.

[Keltest]

I would rank them based on sustainability. No matter how well the gates are/were defended, would they still be after thousands of years?

Lirians idea of using the ecosystem to defend the gate was pretty good in that regard - ecosystems, if large enough, are of course the top of sustainability - if let alone. They are also pretty fragile, as the forest fire showed.

Dorukans gate only had the sigil in terms of sustainability. Himself and all the help he'd get would die eventually, and the gate would be a sitting duck with only the one sigil (no matter how well thought-out).

Girard's gate would, it seems, always keep the illusions, but I'm thinking the family would eventually lose their sense of purpose. If your forefathers, tens of generations ago, lived here to defend some kind of gate (that you have never seen), would you still be as eager as them? After thousands of years, I think their determination would be watered down, until eventually, they'd leave.

The same goes for Soons order. While "a paladin order" is more general than "a family protecting a gate", and thus has a more long-lasting purpose, I think "defending the gate" would lose priority over time. The story of the gates would turn to legend and myth and eventually just a funny origin story. While the paladins would undoubtedly keep on doing good, I think eventually they would forget about protecting the gate, and thus making it highly vulnerable for someone who knows where to look.

Serini's gate, well, that remains to be seen. If there really is some respawn-system for the monsters, that might actually be best in terms of durability. If not, it is probably the worst: every time someone comes along and kills just one monster, the defense of the gate gets weaker. Stretched over thousand years, that leaves the gate defenseless.

I think you are underestimating the prominence that the Gate was given in the oaths of the Sapphire Guard. Whether or not they understand the importance of it, the Guard places importance on the sapphire in the throne itself. Also, its not like they can decide it isn't important and wander off, its in the middle of Azure City.

[Quild]

From worst to best:

Kraagor (Serini) from what we know:
Effective against weak ones or unlucky people in a hurry.
Uneffective against strong ones or lucky peoples.
I think it's better to have someone forced to dungeon crawl against each and every of your monsters rather than pick a door. It may not be the only protection but still.

Soon:
Effective against weak ones especially if then can be detected before being dangerous enough.
Uneffective against any force able to strike down the city. Exposed to intern political trouble.

Lirian:
Effective against alive casters without immunity to diseases.
Uneffective against undead (casters or not), alive casters with protected from diseases, fighters, fire.

Girard:
Effective against anything which isn't prepared enough against illusions, probably effective against a lot of thing prepared enough against illusions provided the clan had not be exterminated a few weeks ago from unexpected plot spell, effective against gullible ones.
Uneffective against those with enough protection against illusions provided the clan had been exterminated beforehand.

Dorukan:
Effective against very weak ones (a team of level 9 PC can go through and can even avoid the first guardian (who sleeps after eating too much)), anything weaker than Dorukan provided he's still alive (was very old when defeated), Evil.
Uneffective against stupid good PC.
Destruction rune was quite stupid really.

[hroþila]

I don't think it's fair to compare them based on their aggregated Challenge Ratings or anything. This is a world where D&D rules and dramatic conventions are like physics - I bet all the Gates literally scaled to the level of the PCs thanks to some mysterious force of the universe, and that a 9th-level party would have somehow survived Kraagor's Tomb just as easily (or as hardly) as it survived the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[factotum]

I'm with NerdyKris. All the methods used to defend the Gates had severe weaknesses, which is why four of them are gone already--it's thus a bit pointless to try and identify which is *best* defended when they're all defended rather badly. Even ignoring that, it's impossible to judge anything about Kraagor's gate defences because they've only been under assault from Team Evil for a week or two--I think the fact Team Evil are unquestionably still actively attacking the defences and have cleared some of the dungeons mean they haven't worked, though, because the whole point was that the monsters here would be so powerful no-one would be able to get past them.

[Kurald Galain]

Well,

Lirian's gate fell to Xykon, all by himself.
Dorukan's gate fell to Xykon, but he needed a good-aligned party.
Soon's gate fell to Xykon with a whole legion of goblin soldiers, and even then Xykon was almost permanently killed in the throne room.
Girard's gate fell to the combined efforts of three epic-level wizards summoned by a triad of evil outsiders.
Kraagor's gate is as of yet unknown.

Based on that, Soon's gate was clearly the best defended, or possibly Girard's depending on what level his followers were.

[Aeliren]

1. Soon. It was placed smack dab in the center of one of the largest human metropolitan centers, right in the heavily guarded palace. The main battle had the Azure army, the Order of the Stick, the Sapphire Guard and the Ghost-Martyrs of the Sapphire's past fighting. It took an entire Hobgoblin army sieging the city with an epic level sorcerer sneaking behind enemy lines to take the city, and even then they almost failed. This is probably the closest Xykon has been to returning to his phylactery, and he only made it out because of an inside job - Miko destroying the sapphire sealing the gate and keeping the Ghost-Martyrs around.

2. Dorukan. Sure, getting to the gate was decently easy for a mid-to-low level adventuring party and Xykon took it over easily, but Dorukan himself didn't seem like a slouch. And those enchantments on the gate? Even Xykon didn't want to personally touch them, keeping them stumped for six months. Though the self-destruct rune was pretty stupid, it may have been a preventative measure to keep the gate from falling in the hands of Evil.

3. Serini/Kraagor. I like the idea of the countless doors. You don't know which one leads to the gate - all you know is that there's going to be a bunch of strong monsters behind each and every one. If you're on a deadline or you're impatient like Xykon, it can be maddeningly frustrating, and there's a chance of death on each.

4. Girard. Hypothetically speaking, if the Draketooths were still alive the illusions would only affect the living, and a good Will or magical items would negate them. You'd still have to contend with the entire Draketooth family, though, but still. Deceased, the gate is left practically undefended, with most of the illusions gone by the time the Order arrived. The last line of defense that didn't rely on illusions depended on the invader falling for the double bluff covering the gate.

5. Lirian. Seriously, a simple fire took it out.

[Euclidodese]

Lirian's was dumb... Very dumb.

Soon's was probably the best, the ghost army can't really be sneaked passed. If you try to destroy the gate, they will rise up and try to feed you your own kneecaps, there's no avoiding them, and since no one knew outside the Sapphire Guard knew about them, there's no preparing for them either.

[veti]

I'd say Girard's defence was the weakest. People have pointed out that Lirian's secret weapon didn't work against undead, but at least she had other, brute-force, defences to back it up.

Girard, by the looks of things, only had his location and illusions, neither of which would have slowed Xykon for a minute even if they had been fully charged and active. That's weak. Illusionists are generally useless against undead.

As for the strongest - as mentioned, Dorukan's defence was so strong that even with all his resources, all his immunities, and Dorukan himself trapped in a soul gem, Xykon still couldn't get to his gate. That's pretty impressive.

[Keltest]

Lirian's was the worst defended by far. It and its defenders were destroyed by accident. Gerard's was probably the second weakest, because illusion magic is fairly easy to circumvent if you are at a power level to even know about the gates. After that is Dorukan's gate, because it relies on Dorukan himself as a guardian. While he was powerful, he wasn't immortal, and we don't know of any contingency plans or apprentices he had to replace him. Kraagor's gate is above that, because while it likewise is stymying Xykon for a significant length of time, it cant just be waited out like Dorukan's could be, you have to actually delve into it. Soon's gate is the best defended, and so far the only one where the defenses have remotely looked like they could actually drive Team Evil off instead of just delaying them.

[Christopher K.]

I think you're missing the point if you think any gate was the "best" defended. The best defense would have been a combination of all the elements, along with constant communication between them. The way the Order of the Scribble fell apart and refused to continue working together is supposed to be a bad way of handling the situation. Every gate had severe weaknesses that were exploited each time.

My point was more "what do *you,* fellow readers, think was the most effective way to guard a gate?" After all, folks tend to have favorite classes in RPGs and favorite characters, so why not favorite ways to protect the maguffin?

[DaggerPen]

Well, I'll cosign the analysis about how the point was that the defenses all had holes in them that they wouldn't have if the party hadn't fallen apart...

... but just for kicks, let's stack them up! I'd gauge my metric in terms of "how reasonable a possibility was their eventual downfall given what they knew at the time?"

I'd honestly say that the clear worst was Lirian. Poor girl got an awful case of "plot required weakness" - I mean, a fire? An accidental fire? Oh no, my only weakness! One of the most common magic elements and a frequent naturally occurring event that holding off only makes worse when it inevitably happens!

Which is a shame, b/c her defenses otherwise weren't too bad. Sure, her whole epic virus thing didn't hold up too well in the face of protection from disease, but it's a good surprise attack that people may not think to defend against, and the combination of Lirian herself and the guardians were pretty good brute force against most other potential threats. She was pretty uniquely vulnerable to a lich attack, but liches seem to be super rare here - almost no one seems to really know even basic stuff like "phylacteries exist" - so her missing that is understandable. But guardians literally pulling the Gate apart because they caught fire? That's like, the first frigging thing you should defend against. Come on.

Aside from that, though, I'd say that the others all stack up surprisingly well? I'd vote Dorukan as the next worst defended after some consideration - while his defenses stymied the crap out of Team Evil well after his death, "defenses capable of being pierced only by the pure of heart" is just asking for a villain down the line to trick a party of well meaning heroes into letting the defenses down. Still, the dungeon crawl wasn't too bad, and the glyph would take a while to figure out or bypass, so altogether not too shabby.

Girard is the next - while Familicide was pretty much completely unforseeable, expecting the family to hang around faithfully forever was perhaps ill advised. Still, even without all the illusions, hiding out in a pyramid full of traps in the middle of nowhere with the only records he knows of pointing to a random booby trapped spot in the desert is silver medal worthy. Granted, the illusions were one of the weaker schools of magic to which immunity is generally easier, but given that the Gate had plenty of conventional deception going for it and that was largely unrelated to how it fell, I don't rank that as a huge weakness.

Serini's Gate is still too much of an unknown quantity at this point and is thus excluded from my lineup.

So of the ones we've seen before, I have to give it to the paladins. Well defended city, secret army of paladins, even more secret army of paladin ghosts with one sufficient to beat the epic lich and near epic cleric in a fight. If it weren't for a freak confluence of circumstances in which one paladin destroyed the Gate just before the evil could be defeated, it'd probably still be standing.

Of course, given that in addition to Miko's role, the ultimate threat to the Gate was spawned by the paladin's idea of pre-emptive action, I'm gonna call "paladins are flawed individuals vulnerable to terrible beliefs" an inevitable hole in that security.

[Yendor]

Girard would never have allowed such a gaping hole in Lirian's security. Know who's immune to magical diseases? Paladins.

Actually, what's to stop a rogue strolling up with a wand of fireballs?

[Mandor]

Gate? What Gate?

[Kish]

Werebears.

I would also point out, about Girard's hidden location, that he hid it from the person he actually could have trusted to guard the information and not abuse it (Soon) and gave it to the one who wrote it down in a book that was somehow obtained by a lich (Serini).

[Avian Overlord]

Is the thing with the fire really that bad? The gate breaking isn't what the defenses are trying to stop, the gate being captured is. The live guardians meant that it would be nigh impossible to actually capture the gate without destroying it. Given that she knew an epic arcane caster personally having to rebuild the gate wouldn't have even been that much of an issue. Really, Lirian's problem was being too nice for her own good. If she had killed Xykon and Redcloak when she could have, confiscated the Crimson Mantle, or even just broken up the leaders of the attack in different cells she would have won. And if she were defeated by anyone other than disease immune spellcasters the gate's defenses (namely the disease) would make the ritual impossible to complete. And at least she had something other than that, unlike Girard. She made at least a token effort to cover her bases unlike Mr."Illusions! Nothing but illusions." Still, the glaring neglect of anything disease immune was a massive failure.

My rankings are Girard < Lirian < Dorukan < Soon. We haven't seen much of Kraggor's gate and we haven't seen whatever trick Sereni has up her sleeve yet so I don't think I can rank that one, but given how annoyed Team Evil seem to be at it I suspect it'll be pretty tough.

[Keltest]

Is the thing with the fire really that bad? The gate breaking isn't what the defenses are trying to stop, the gate being captured is. The live guardians meant that it would be nigh impossible to actually capture the gate without destroying it. Given that she knew an epic arcane caster personally having to rebuild the gate wouldn't have even been that much of an issue. Really, Lirian's problem was being too nice for her own good. If she had killed Xykon and Redcloak when she could have, confiscated the Crimson Mantle, or even just broken up the leaders of the attack in different cells she would have won. And if she were defeated by anyone other than disease immune spellcasters the gate's defenses (namely the disease) would make the ritual impossible to complete. And at least she had something other than that, unlike Girard. She made at least a token effort to cover her bases unlike Mr."Illusions! Nothing but illusions." Still, the glaring neglect of anything disease immune was a massive failure.

My rankings are Girard < Lirian < Dorukan < Soon. We haven't seen much of Kraggor's gate and we haven't seen whatever trick Sereni has up her sleeve yet so I don't think I can rank that one, but given how annoyed Team Evil seem to be at it I suspect it'll be pretty tough.

Given that the gates are rather important to the stability of reality, yes. The fire thing really is that bad.

[One Step Two]

Just my two coppers regarding Lirian's gate and the fire. First, keep in mind this is an overconfident epic level Elf, not an overly pragmatic PC; the kind who, when they become a lich, would bury their pyhlacteries in a self-excluding dead magic demi-plane of lolnope vs anyone else.
When Team Evil attacked the first time, Lirian would have had time to cast protection from fire on her guardians to ensure that it isn't used against them.
When they attacked the second time it was an utter surprise to Lirian. They literally burst out of the ground and started attacking furiously, giving her no chance to act on whatever her usualy preperations are.

For my two cents though, I do rate them worst to best in the following order.

Serini/Kraagor is exempt due to currently insufficient evidence.

Lirian gets the worst because because it requires her direct intervention to stop invaders. Not because her defences are lacking, or undead are a problem to deal with, it's because she's the most prone to being caught unawares. Druids have some serious power to their spells, shapeshifting gives her good versatility, and her forest defenders are powerful in their own right; but in my opinion, Lirian has a split focus. She's not just defending the gate, she's protecting the forest and local area. Her spells may not be set for being anti-invader because she has other priorities. Therefore, if caught unaware she is under-prepared. Also, while she does have the virus keeping her glade safe, it can be foiled by being immune to disease, or stealing the innoculation. Furthermore, it doesn't work right away. Xykon was able to cause alot of havoc even before his magic was removed.

Girard's gate scores good points because of the constant guard presence of family, what let's it down however, is their legend. If the Enemy is not some brute-force invader, but someone who has done research, would know Girard is an Illusionist, and knowing is half the battle. Yes he has traps, and Family to keep his gate safe and secure, but when a handful spells obviate his biggest asset, illusions. Without them, it becomes a standard dungeon with alot of casters to defend. Bring someone to take care of the traps, summon a Xorn or Earth Elemental to simply Earth Glide as a scout and find secret passages, all while keeping a mindblank and a True seeing spell to handle the rest as you progress through. The hardest part pre-familicide would be clearing out the defenders, as they would have plenty of bolt-holes I assume, but being caster primaries means low HP. Bring some spell resistance and you're good.

I honestly rate Dorukan's gate as a only a little higher Girard's. We know very little of the defences inside after Team Evil took over, but the Fire/Earth/Air Sigil test prooves 3-4 mid-level adventurers can handle each without too much trouble at all, which leaves a lot to be desired. Dorukan himself is the biggest asset, and unlike Lirian, he is more likely to be able to handle unknown or unexpected threats intuitively due his spells. However, he himself is the biggest flaw. Without him as a defender, the dungeon is able to be overrun with only minor difficulty, and while his Sigils certainly stomped on Team Evils progress for a good six months, given enough time to research, they can be brought down. And seeing as the primary example is a Lich Sorcerer and an Unaging Goblin Cleric, time is on their side (Yes it is). It's a got a better hold-out time compared to Girards, but has as many problems

Soon's Gate is the best overall. The Paladin order and the Ghost Martyrs are the biggest items of defence, and a damned effective one at that. Azure city is the biggest factor too. While in book we were shown that it's fracticious nature with the loss of their King, and hasty defences against outside invastion (and a rogue element in the shape of a fallen paladin) caused their ultimate defeat. At the height of it's power however, it isn't just the Paladins which guard the Gate, but the entirety of Azure City. In Lirian's example, a small but powerful shock-attack force of a Lich, Cleric, Rogue and a handful of Goblins Soldiers could defeat the Glade. Both Girard and Dorukan required a dedicated, and powerful group of dungeon divers; though admittedly they would need more preperation to defeat each at the heights of their power. For Soon's gate however, it required an entire Army to take and hold the location.

Edit: Added spoilered note re: Lirian's gate.

[Bratmon]

Is the thing with the fire really that bad? The gate breaking isn't what the defenses are trying to stop, the gate being captured is. Given that she knew an epic arcane caster personally having to rebuild the gate wouldn't have even been that much of an issue.

Holy crap, I never considered that! Lirian and Dorukan, uniquely among the Order of the Scribble, were able to cast the gate ritual if needed. Their gates are the easiest to destroy.

[FlatFish]

Lirian's gate confused me so much at one point I wanted to ask the Giant to see how he imagined her thought process; it's not as confusing an idea as it used to be, but I still think it's weird.

For those who do not know, Lirian's gate, for, I believe, a month, was attacked by Redclock and Right-Eye's goblin forces; they came close enough to the gate where they had to encounter Lirian's main forces, including a unicorn, werebears, treants, and giant...puma things. Lirian, for her gate, used a strain of virus called the Guardian Virus, which infected mortal hosts and took away all their magical potential (except for Redclock's, because of the effect the Crimson Mantle had). Eventually, Lirian herself has to face a lich (who could this be??) and she does...poorly.

The oddest part was how little Lirian was prepared to take on a high-level undead spellcaster. I've considered that such people are rare, but even the other gates were at least somewhat ready to take such a challenge on: for the most part, the other gates rely on their invaders' intelligence/inherent skills, rather than their level. Soon's gate, especially, required the invader to be prepared to face a very specific type of enemy; and Serini's and Girald's are just plain annoying. Lirian's was really straightforward. Maybe it reflected her distrust of organic beings i.e. that only people who have carnal desires would wish to take over the gate, but, other than the Guardian Virus, her defence was primarily to throw things at people.

But this reminds me that every gate was limited by what the creator's beliefs were, and was destroyed in a way that represented the hole in these beliefs: I've given Lirian's; Dorukan's was confounded by stupidity, for all the intelligence he had; Soon's by one of his own Guard; Girard's by the fallibility of decent people (V only killed a quarter of the black dragons in the world because his/her family was in danger + ego; Xykon knew where the gate was from Serini's journal); and Serini's/Kraagor's we'll see. Not that the Giant intended for these parallels to happen, but they make sense, as, if the gate did not have such defences, we'd say, "Well, why didn't they think of that?" So it sorta plays out naturally.

Anyway, that's me rambling. I think Lirian's is the worst. Soon's gets a gold star for almost succeeding. The only thing that ever gave Xykon time to pause, though, was a Teevo.

[Avian Overlord]

Well, if we use success against Team Evil as our metric than Lirian actually comes out pretty well, considering she y'know, won when they attacked her defenses.

[DaggerPen]

Holy crap, I never considered that! Lirian and Dorukan, uniquely among the Order of the Scribble, were able to cast the gate ritual if needed. Their gates are the easiest to destroy.

... this is a really good catch - well done.


Girard's by the fallibility of decent people (V only killed a quarter of the black dragons in the world because his/her family was in danger + ego;

... sidestepping the argument that's already derailed many a thread here, I'd like to say that I find it odd that you ascribe the weakness of Girard's Gate to "the fallibility of decent people" and not "was only willing to trust family," considering that Girard was notoriously distrustful of anyone who wasn't family and had absolutely zero faith in "decent people" unless they were related by blood - and if there had been any non-blood defenders of his Gate, things may have gone quite differently.

As for the Gate's downfall in each case being thematically tied in with the core of its defenses, I go back and forth on how conscious a choice that was on The Giant's part. I mean, it does make sense even if it weren't at all an intentional motif - the most obvious holes in a Gate's security are very likely to be related to a blind spot in their defenses. But then again, there are still potentially conceivable downfalls that don't tie such a neat thematic bow on things? But then again about then againning, what exactly makes us consider something thematic? Is it just that it seems to tie all the pieces together, such that it could easily be unintentional?

Bah. My head hurts thinking about it XD

I do wonder if we'll ever get an answer from The Giant on that part, though. Perhaps in a future commentary down the line.

[Outliar]

I think Girard's gate was the best defended. If not for V's familicide which was kind of hard to predict practically no one could've taken his gate. He was an epic level illusionist and surely he would've come up with illusions that worked on anyone including undead/constructs/people with true seeing. Even if they'd managed to get past all the illusions and traps they would've all been caught in the last one and killed by his family before they woke up. The only reason anyone got close at all was because of the world scourging-unpredictable-diety level magic that V used and even with that the linear guild still walked right out of the pyramid thinking it was a fake. I'm pretty sure that had all his family still been alive Xykon would've had difficulty seeing the pyramid much less walking through it. The only weakness it had was that the only people in it were all family and that if an unstoppable spell that just happens to kill everyone in the same family comes along most of their defences will be destroyed. So I think that Girard's gate was the best defended despite the fact that everyone was only slowed down by the defences in the comic.

[Kish]

You do remember that the actually undead Malack strolled through Girard's final illusion, sneering at Nale for being affected by it?

[MesiDoomstalker]

While the final Illusion was a [Mind-Effecting] effect, the rest of the illusions were not. Meaning they still worked on Undead and other such would be interlopers without a True Seeing. And since the Family could pick off any intruder from behind their illusions, it was a matter of waiting for their True Seeing to expire (or multiple Dispel Traps, which admittedly we don't see). I think Girard's Gate was the second most well defended, after Soon, if not for entirely unpredicatable Epic Spell.

[Baphomet]

Dorukan relying on his own power to defend the gate might not have been so short-sighted. Being an epic wizard, he may have actually circumvented mortality. For all we know, he would have respawned somehow after being defeated. He just couldn't, because Xykon just happened to soul trap him the first time he died. And yeah, in light of the fact that he and Lirian could rebuild the gates themselves, the self-destruct rune actually seems like a really good idea. That thing obliterated the entire mountain.

[Onyavar]

I think you're missing the point if you think any gate was the "best" defended. The best defense would have been a combination of all the elements, along with constant communication between them. The way the Order of the Scribble fell apart and refused to continue working together is supposed to be a bad way of handling the situation. Every gate had severe weaknesses that were exploited each time.

Combine them HOW, that is the point.

The defense of each gate was tailored to its natural surroundings. Lirian couldn't have had her druid glade in any of the other ecosystems (!). And her virus would have been detrimental to the urban setting of Azure City, or to the magic defenses of both Dorukan and Girard.

Girard couldn't have hidden Azure City behind an endless series of cunning illusions. The other ones were remote enough, yet the one he chose worked best for him. At the North Pole, his family was certainly more likely to fall apart and migrate elsewhere, he probably couldn't have pulled off his breeding stunt in the elven lands. Yet his way of operations (secret mafia clan business) conflicted with the communal efforts of Soon (secret dedicated paladin order) and Lirian (secret eco-fanatic hippie community).

Soon was entirely depending on having a metropolis around his gate. A paladin order would fall apart on the North Pole, or in the desert. In the remote woods or hills, they had a chance to survive, but it would have been a monastic order, more likely to fall apart. And a monastery doesn't have a throne room. Face it. Soon's protections worked only for Azure City, and the other protection systems would have screwed up with his own.

Dorukan, well, a wizard can set up shop everywhere, he could have built his dungeon also on the north pole or in the elven homeland or the barren desert. His approach was sitting behind an impenetrable magical defense... That wouldn't have worked well with a preempitvely striking Paladin order.
Also, we don't know if Dorukan had invented his talisman as a second line of defense?

And Serini was practically openly inviting anyone to get to her gate and do the quest of the tomb. Probably with horrible monsters everywhere and little reward and no final boss. But we don't know enough yet. And if I'm right, her cryostasis efforts are less likely to work far from the eternal ice.

The gates were secure for two generations, and would have been secure for several more, and they probably all figured that someone would eventually find a new and better way to ultimately protect them once their own defense failed. We all know how the gates fell shortly after each other, however. In each case, it was a string of unlucky coincidences, the sort no-one could anticipate in their lifetime - a maximum credible accident each.
Well, unless you anticipate that...
... destruction is part of nature. LI-RI-AN!!!!!
... even the mightiest wizards eventually die, Dorukan!
... human error is human, Soon. Honor can be suckered.
... bloodlines can go extinct, Girard, no deception works forever.
... well, Serini, don't know if your ultimate line of defense will have a flaw. I guess the doors are only the first line, anyway.

Others have already pointed out the importance of sustainability. I'd say, Lirian, Soon, Serini and Girard all had that aspect covered, with dedicated guardians even after their death. Yet, Dorukan failed to have an apprentice??? It seems so, but I guess there is a story yet untold.

[Quebbster]

Holy crap, I never considered that! Lirian and Dorukan, uniquely among the Order of the Scribble, were able to cast the gate ritual if needed. Their gates are the easiest to destroy.

That is a very good observation. Particularly since
the souls of Lirian and Dorukan are both trapped in Xykon's gem. If they can somehow be freed and/or resurrected, they may be able to rebuild the Gates.

[Kurald Galain]

Girard would never have allowed such a gaping hole in Lirian's security. Know who's immune to magical diseases? Paladins.

Ouch!

Good example, too :smallamused:

[DrStubbsberg]

I think Soon's gate takes both honours as best- and worst-defended gate (probably with Lirian's as close-second on worst, for reasons brought up a few times in this thread).

Whilst the actual defences surrounding Soon's gate are fantastic - hidden in pain sight in the most guarded room of a fortress within a fortified city, protected by a standing army, Paladin order and bound positive-energy spirits of fallen members of said order - it's also the only one susceptible to accidental destruction. Considering that Miko basically one-shot the gem, that indicates little to no magical reinforcement - she'd lost all her Paladin-mojo, but IIRC she has a splash of Monk, so probably solid base stats and decent combat abilities remaining [demonstrated by her fight immediately after falling, and her reaching the Throne Room during the battle], but also without any magic equipment or weapons, or specialisation in Sundering.
This means that any armed conflict in the throne room (not impossible in a city rife with political back-stabbing) could result in a stray attack/spell/whatever hitting the gem and unravelling the seal on the Snarl - Miko nearly does it when she assassinates Shojo. Whilst all the other Gates have their vulnerabilities, Soon's is the only one that can be accessed by anything other than a powerful, determined group of adventurers and potentially destroyed unintentionally.

[Keltest]

I think Soon's gate takes both honours as best- and worst-defended gate (probably with Lirian's as close-second on worst, for reasons brought up a few times in this thread).

Whilst the actual defences surrounding Soon's gate are fantastic - hidden in pain sight in the most guarded room of a fortress within a fortified city, protected by a standing army, Paladin order and bound positive-energy spirits of fallen members of said order - it's also the only one susceptible to accidental destruction. Considering that Miko basically one-shot the gem, that indicates little to no magical reinforcement - she'd lost all her Paladin-mojo, but IIRC she has a splash of Monk, so probably solid base stats and decent combat abilities remaining [demonstrated by her fight immediately after falling, and her reaching the Throne Room during the battle], but also without any magic equipment or weapons, or specialisation in Sundering.
This means that any armed conflict in the throne room (not impossible in a city rife with political back-stabbing) could result in a stray attack/spell/whatever hitting the gem and unravelling the seal on the Snarl - Miko nearly does it when she assassinates Shojo. Whilst all the other Gates have their vulnerabilities, Soon's is the only one that can be accessed by anything other than a powerful, determined group of adventurers and potentially destroyed unintentionally.

Point of order: At least three of the gates were vulnerable to accidental destruction. Lirian's gate was pulled apart by the treants it was bound to because they were flailing around, Dorukan's had the stupid self destruct sigil, and Soon's was in the sapphire. As far as we have seen, only Gerard's was remotely protected from random shenanigans happening in the vicinity of the gate, by virtue of being surrounded by a big pillar.

[DrStubbsberg]

Point of order: At least three of the gates were vulnerable to accidental destruction. Lirian's gate was pulled apart by the treants it was bound to because they were flailing around, Dorukan's had the stupid self destruct sigil, and Soon's was in the sapphire. As far as we have seen, only Gerard's was remotely protected from random shenanigans happening in the vicinity of the gate, by virtue of being surrounded by a big pillar.

I suppose I should have said "is most susceptible to accidental destruction" or "most at risk or destruction unrelated to an attempt to seize/destroy the gates" - Durokon's self-destruct button was very clearly labelled as such, and its position deep in a well-guarded dungeon means that the only time anyone's liable to be in danger of tripping onto it is if an adventuring party has already reached the gate. Lirian's Treants are also an accidental-destruction risk, but again are unlikely to be compelled to move unless a concerted attack is under-way (there's a whole hostile forest to get through before you reach them).

[Windscion]

Worst: Lirian's and Girard's.

Lirian's because single hard counter, Lich. Good point about it being easier to destroy than capture, tho.

Girard's: Illusions can only delay, they won't keep people out forever, and can be tripped using disposable minions. I'm just not impressed.

Best: Durokan's and Soon's.

Durokan: This wasn't bad. Needing the pure in heart may be a trope, but it's still a twist that people like Tarquin wouldn't consider. Since he thinks good and evil are silly ideas and all. And of course we don't know how long Durokan himself could have stuck around if not having died through misadventure. He was only drawn out by Xykon showing him Lirian's soul gem.

Soon's: Having the ghost martyrs (who very very few people know about) -- as the last line of defense makes this a pretty tought nut to crack. Assuming you get through the first 10,000 defenders.

Serini's, of course, we don't know a lot yet.

[Kurald Galain]

Considering that Miko basically one-shot the gem, that indicates little to no magical reinforcement
It appears that other than the paladins, nobody knew the gem was at all important. People don't, as a rule, go around smashing gems in throne rooms.

Of course, as anyone familiar with ICT security will tell you, Security Through Obscurity Isn't. Any low-level rogue could have destroyed the gem with ease, and it is unknown how close Redcloak and Xykon had to be to perform their ritual, but they could perhaps have hidden in the city. Soon's gate was the most vulnerable to stealth, since paladins don't expect that.



Girard's: Illusions can only delay, they won't keep people out forever, and can be tripped using disposable minions. I'm just not impressed.
Girard's defenses also include at least seven 15th level wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) who are entirely capable of casting spells that aren't illusions. This means casters at the level of power and versatility of Redcloak and Vaarsuvius, and there's seven of them.

[Keltest]

It appears that other than the paladins, nobody knew the gem was at all important. People don't, as a rule, go around smashing gems in throne rooms.

Of course, as anyone familiar with ICT security will tell you, Security Through Obscurity Isn't. Any low-level rogue could have destroyed the gem with ease, and it is unknown how close Redcloak and Xykon had to be to perform their ritual, but they could perhaps have hidden in the city. Soon's gate was the most vulnerable to stealth, since paladins don't expect that.

Youre neglecting to take into account the fact that, in addition to housing the gate, the throne is also periodically home to the ruler of Azure City, which apparently likes to substitute ninjas for politics. It would take a magnificent level of ignorance for the guardians of the throne room to not be at least moderately prepared for a stealth approach.

[Onyavar]

What I find most refreshing is that lots of people disagree here.

I'm distibuting stars myself:
Dorukan: * (would not leave something for him to protect again)
Lirian: ** (meh)
Soon: *** (solid one, okay)
Girard: **** (very creative and organized, failed because of foul play)
Didn't hand out 5 stars.

I tried and assigned stars to represent people's opinions around here, and assigned average ratings:
Lirian scores a 1.8 rating. 14 opinions.
Girard scores a 3.1 rating. 15 opinions.
Dorukan scores a 3.2 rating. 13 opinions.
Soon scores a 4.2 rating. 17 opinions.

Left out Serini/Kraagor, so far.

[Grey Watcher]

As I see it, it's less that any one was better or worse than the others and more that each had a vulnerability that, while improbable, was possible:


Lirian: As pointed out upthread, ecosystems have a surprising mix of resilience and fragility. All it took was the right attacker (immune to magic-nullifying disease) and some magically fueled fire to literally burn the whole thing to the ground.
Dorukan: Xykon's speech about a sledgehammer vs. a finely tuned watch seems apt. Yes, as an epic-level spellcaster, Dorukan's magic was nigh-unassailable, but someone determined to batter against the defenses and capable of bringing enough force to bear to at least dent them with each attempt could indeed overcome it. (I tend to discount the whole "Elan almost opened the Gate for Xykon" thing, because Xykon's supposition that Dorukan would use the same criteria for access to the Gate as a did for access to the Talisman is pretty shaky reasoning, and we have no proof it would've actually worked.)
Soon: The armies of Azure City and the Sapphire Guard were quite effective against external threats, but, in the end, Girard had a point: all it took was one person unilaterally deciding she knew what was best and taking it upon herself to act "for the greater good" to blow the whole thing.
Girard: Trusting only blood relations proved to be a major Achilles' Heel for the Draketooth family, but I think there's more to the flaw here. Because they had NO external resources at all (no allied forest creatures, no summonings from distant planes (another reason for the Cloister vulnerability beyond shacking up with Lirian), no city full of soldiers who will defend the Gate, even unwittingly), one devastating stroke, especially one blind to illusions, does everything that needs doing. Even if Girard's Guardians had some genetic diversity such that Familicide wasn't a one hit KO, a disease, a natural disaster, or something else sufficiently mindless that illusions and misdirections are useless would have had much the same effect.

[Menarker]

Focusing on Lirian's defense and her failure, since she was responsible in so many ways for why things went south, especially for the benefit of all who doesn't have Start of Darkness book.

The forest defense system (including the combat effort of Lirian) worked out actually fairly ok in general. The Mage-nerfing virus in particular worked out very nicely to eventually and permanently nerf the strengths of anyone who would attempt to bypass her powerful creatures... but Lirian wasted her victory with her 'cruel mercy' instead of actually slaying would-be conquerors of one of many world-ending artifacts. Xykon and Redcloak, along with some of their minions were permitted to live underground in a special crafted prison that had their own ecosystem of plants for food (which ended up being used as ingredients for the lichdom ritual instead). She also didn't remove the equipment of the group as she did so, causing Redcloak to maintain his spellcasting ability via his cloak that shielded him from the virus. She basically handed the group of aggressive and increasingly desperate attackers their own tools to success.
As previously mentioned in the thread, she also was the secondary core of the defense, being the main caster (and only one) that would support a horde of strong beasts. However, how difficult would it be to gather other druids to help do the job itself (or at least watch the forest while she guards full-time), especially the other functions like 'resistance to fire" spells that would normally be in play if she wasn't taken by surprise? It would especially would serve to ensure that the gate remained guarded while she ABANDONS HER POST so she GO OUT FOR A ROMANTIC DINNER DATE (and this is implied to be more than a one-time thing).
EDIT: Looking back on the book, she did have some fellow druids helping out, but mainly for scrying and perhaps they aren't as through as they should have been.
The very moment that Xykon and co' broke free and laid waste to the forest, she wasn't maintaining the gate's defenses, but was lounging about reading a romantic letter sent from her boyfriend Dorukan.
The icing on the cake was that Xykon and Redcloak at the time only knew about her gate. If she just kept her mouth shut about the existence of the "other four gates" at the time of her defeat, they would have just aborted their mission, as a perceived total failure, as opposed to just wrapping up and moving onto the next one. Furthermore, Xykon exploited her diary dedicated detailed with 'facts' about her boyfriend Dorukan, thus giving them directions to the next gate while also giving them the knowledge and means to use her corpse and soul as a hostage to lure Dorukan out of his magical fortress.
Lirian had a potentially decent setup, having won the first time around. However, she was a particularly crappy guardian, letting her own moral code and her mortal urges take precedence over her duty instead of following through on her setup. Also, her loose mouth/hands leaked information that led to the knowledge of the other gates' existence to be exposed.

[dancrilis]

Lirian had a potentially decent setup, having won the first time around. However, she was a particularly crappy guardian, letting her own moral code and her mortal urges take precedence over her duty instead of following through on her setup. That she insisted on the power of nature and didn't employ other druids to help maintain the setup was pretty short-sighted too. Finally, her loose mouth/hands leaked information that led to the knowledge of the other gates' existence to be exposed.

Normally not one to defend morality but I will give it a shot here.


Lirian keeping Team Evil alive was actually the correct move (baring soul trapping or the like).

Had she killed Xykon his soul would have presumably went to the lower planes where it could have talked about a universe conquering gate in order to barter for a better deal.

The only method she had to ensure the lower planes did not get the information was to attempt to reform the villains (or trap the souls).

Frankly all good people in DnD should seek to redeem villains (and minions) to prevent their souls going to the lower planes (evil gods etc) and furthering the cause of evil in the multiverse.

[hroþila]

I don't see how "wasn't a slave to the Gate 24/7 and cared about other things in life" constitutes any sort of failing on Lirian's part. Plus I'm pretty sure she wasn't the only druid in her glade.

[Menarker]

Looking back on the book, it seems there were other druids in the area, but we see them using scrying pools for information. Kinda wonder why they didn't cast fire protection on that fateful day though. Unless they were too low level. Made an edit note in my previous comment to note that there may have been other druid support.

[ReaderAt2046]

Combine them HOW, that is the point.

The defense of each gate was tailored to its natural surroundings. Lirian couldn't have had her druid glade in any of the other ecosystems (!). And her virus would have been detrimental to the urban setting of Azure City, or to the magic defenses of both Dorukan and Girard.

Girard couldn't have hidden Azure City behind an endless series of cunning illusions. The other ones were remote enough, yet the one he chose worked best for him. At the North Pole, his family was certainly more likely to fall apart and migrate elsewhere, he probably couldn't have pulled off his breeding stunt in the elven lands. Yet his way of operations (secret mafia clan business) conflicted with the communal efforts of Soon (secret dedicated paladin order) and Lirian (secret eco-fanatic hippie community).

Soon was entirely depending on having a metropolis around his gate. A paladin order would fall apart on the North Pole, or in the desert. In the remote woods or hills, they had a chance to survive, but it would have been a monastic order, more likely to fall apart. And a monastery doesn't have a throne room. Face it. Soon's protections worked only for Azure City, and the other protection systems would have screwed up with his own.

Dorukan, well, a wizard can set up shop everywhere, he could have built his dungeon also on the north pole or in the elven homeland or the barren desert. His approach was sitting behind an impenetrable magical defense... That wouldn't have worked well with a preempitvely striking Paladin order.
Also, we don't know if Dorukan had invented his talisman as a second line of defense?

And Serini was practically openly inviting anyone to get to her gate and do the quest of the tomb. Probably with horrible monsters everywhere and little reward and no final boss. But we don't know enough yet. And if I'm right, her cryostasis efforts are less likely to work far from the eternal ice.

The gates were secure for two generations, and would have been secure for several more, and they probably all figured that someone would eventually find a new and better way to ultimately protect them once their own defense failed. We all know how the gates fell shortly after each other, however. In each case, it was a string of unlucky coincidences, the sort no-one could anticipate in their lifetime - a maximum credible accident each.
Well, unless you anticipate that...
... destruction is part of nature. LI-RI-AN!!!!!
... even the mightiest wizards eventually die, Dorukan!
... human error is human, Soon. Honor can be suckered.
... bloodlines can go extinct, Girard, no deception works forever.
... well, Serini, don't know if your ultimate line of defense will have a flaw. I guess the doors are only the first line, anyway.

Others have already pointed out the importance of sustainability. I'd say, Lirian, Soon, Serini and Girard all had that aspect covered, with dedicated guardians even after their death. Yet, Dorukan failed to have an apprentice??? It seems so, but I guess there is a story yet untold.

Combining the defenses doesn't mean that each of them contributes equally to each defense. It just means that even if each of them is primarily responsible for defending one gate, the others could have easily filled in a few holes.

If there had been a few Sapphire Guard paladins stationed to cover Lirian's Gate, they could have arrested Xykon and Redcloak and taken them back to Azure City for trial on charges of Trying To Destroy The World. Or at the very least, they'd have recognized the Crimson Mantle and destroyed it. Or if Dorukan had put up a few sigils to prevent fire, the Gate wouldn't have been destroyed. Or if he'd given the others some kind of way of summoning him in emergencies, then there would have been two epic casters at Lirian's Gate.

If Dorukan had had some way of calling for help in emergencies, he could have summoned the Sapphire Guard to hit Xykon's forces from behind. And having (unlike in canon) buffed himself in advance and cherry-picked his spell selection, he'd have been able to crush Xykon and Redcloak's forces between himself and the Guard.

You get the idea.

[Kurald Galain]

Youre neglecting to take into account the fact that, in addition to housing the gate, the throne is also periodically home to the ruler of Azure City, which apparently likes to substitute ninjas for politics. It would take a magnificent level of ignorance for the guardians of the throne room to not be at least moderately prepared for a stealth approach.

Precisely. Note how neither Shojo nor Hinjo had any bodyguards whatsoever until Roy stepped in.

Aside from that, sneaking into a room when the ruler isn't there ought to be easier than sneaking up on the ruler.

[Takver]

These arguments are all really interesting. I hadn't before considered that Familicide was an ironic way to destroy the defenses of the gate of the guy who, like Ian Starshine, thought you couldn't trust anybody but family.

In the end, I think it's all a bit tautological though. The four gates that were destroyed were all too weakly defended, because they were destroyed.

[snowblizz]

Any low-level rogue could have destroyed the gem with ease, and it is unknown how close Redcloak and Xykon had to be to perform their ritual, but they could perhaps have hidden in the city. Soon's gate was the most vulnerable to stealth, since paladins don't expect that.
Destroying the gate, catastrophic as it was/would be ultimately isn't an issue. Gates can be rebuilt, and the world survived fine for a long time with the rifts. Destroyign gates arguably could be said to be defending the rifts.

Redcloak and Xykon specifically discuss and reject a stealth plan on account of needing to "camp out in the throneroom for weeks" in #416.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The interesting thing to me is that those defenses at Azure City? The ones that almost ended Team Evil? They were crippled by the death of Shojo and the defection of the nobility (and their household troops).

What would've happened if the Azurites had those extra troops?

[snowblizz]

The interesting thing to me is that those defenses at Azure City? The ones that almost ended Team Evil? They were crippled by the death of Shojo and the defection of the nobility (and their household troops).

What would've happened if the Azurites had those extra troops?

They were not crippeled by the death of Shojo, severely weakened for sure. The one defence nearly ending Team Evil had nothing to do with the city or its nobility. I seem to recall it being said that having the nobility and their troops present wouldn't have changed the outcome fo the battle, there jsut weren't enough of them for that. Ultimately, the outcome was already decided upon and so any set-up was specifically designed with that goal in mind. And here lies a major problem to thinking about this.



As for the Gate's downfall in each case being thematically tied in with the core of its defenses, I go back and forth on how conscious a choice that was on The Giant's part. I mean, it does make sense even if it weren't at all an intentional motif - the most obvious holes in a Gate's security are very likely to be related to a blind spot in their defenses. But then again, there are still potentially conceivable downfalls that don't tie such a neat thematic bow on things? But then again about then againning, what exactly makes us consider something thematic? Is it just that it seems to tie all the pieces together, such that it could easily be unintentional?

Totally conscious I'd say. Based on the commentaries in the book I'd say these things are planned well in advance.
I have great belief in The Giant's rich storytelling.:smallbiggrin:

[Kurald Galain]

Destroying the gate, catastrophic as it was/would be ultimately isn't an issue. Gates can be rebuilt, and the world survived fine for a long time with the rifts. Destroyign gates arguably could be said to be defending the rifts.

Redcloak and Xykon specifically discuss and reject a stealth plan on account of needing to "camp out in the throneroom for weeks" in #416.

Yes, Xykon rejects the most tactically sound plan on account of being bored. And then he loses the battle (since he doesn't get the gate and he doesn't care about the city) and almost perma-dies as a result. Gee, I wonder what that's telling us :smallamused:

[Kish]

Considering they said "in the throneroom" and "for weeks," it's not accurate to say we don't know how close they needed to be, or that we don't know it was at least for multiple weeks.

[ChillerInstinct]

I've kind of bounced all over as I've read the points in this thread. I'll definitely say Soon's was the best defended (massive, sustainable army, heavy physical defenses to even GET to the Gate, etc.), though I definitely have to question the Gate's... defense, itself, for lack of a better word. Putting it on the throne with a stone that could be broken by a single depowered Paladin is surprisingly lax when the illusionist in your group manages to build a stone pillar around it, you know? I know it's a throne room and all but all it would take is one of the Ninja death squads accidentally hit the Sapphire in the middle of killing the person on the throne, and goodbye Azure City. I guess Soon figured in an honourable society that type of thing would never happen, but still.

The other three, I'm kind of all over the place on. Draketooth's defenses were pretty lax against undead, who, when you're building your defenses with the intent of stopping evil, is probably priority #1, but at least he had a plan for what happened after he inevitably died. Sure, Dorukan was an epic wizard and Lirian was an Elf, but sooner or later death's going to catch up with you and when you're tasked with protecting the fabric of the universe you need to plan accordingly. Draketooth at least had heirs to pick up the torch after he bit it. It took an epic-level spell from a long-dead Necromancer to leave his gate undefended. In hindsight, yeah, his paranoia cost his Gate big time, but if you didn't know about the possibility of magic wiping out your family line anywhere in the world it would have sounded like a safe bet. Personally I think the fact that it took Familicide to even make a reasonable dent in Girard's defenses says a lot about how surprisingly solid his Gate really was.

Honestly, there's a large part of me that thinks Dorukan has the weakest, insofar as that once Dorukan died, Xykon didn't have much trouble moving in. The ONE thing that I think keeps him from being the absolute weakest is the "pure of heart" defenses actually would have held up surprisingly well if not for the utter idiocy of one Bard with a serious INT dump stat. That these beauts weren't standard in each of the gates is a tragedy.

Is it fair to say that Lirian shouldn't have had a life outside of protecting the gate? Maybe not, but in which case she should have planned accordingly. More to the point, if your defenses are that obviously weak to fire, why would you not have Mass Protection from Fire on lock 24/7? I mean, sure, the exact scenario that saw Xykon survive the virus and become a badass Lich was a one-in-a-million, Lirian couldn't have feasibly seen that coming, but there's all sorts of other ways the Gate could have caught fire. Even with her ability to reseal it, it's a pretty massive oversight.

So yeah, I'd give Soon a 3.5/5, Girard a 3, Dorukan a 1.5 and Lilian a 1.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Point of order: At least three of the gates were vulnerable to accidental destruction. Lirian's gate was pulled apart by the treants it was bound to because they were flailing around, Dorukan's had the stupid self destruct sigil, and Soon's was in the sapphire. As far as we have seen, only Gerard's was remotely protected from random shenanigans happening in the vicinity of the gate, by virtue of being surrounded by a big pillar.


I think Soon's gate takes both honours as best- and worst-defended gate (probably with Lirian's as close-second on worst, for reasons brought up a few times in this thread).

Whilst the actual defences surrounding Soon's gate are fantastic - hidden in pain sight in the most guarded room of a fortress within a fortified city, protected by a standing army, Paladin order and bound positive-energy spirits of fallen members of said order - it's also the only one susceptible to accidental destruction. Considering that Miko basically one-shot the gem, that indicates little to no magical reinforcement - she'd lost all her Paladin-mojo, but IIRC she has a splash of Monk, so probably solid base stats and decent combat abilities remaining [demonstrated by her fight immediately after falling, and her reaching the Throne Room during the battle], but also without any magic equipment or weapons, or specialisation in Sundering.
This means that any armed conflict in the throne room (not impossible in a city rife with political back-stabbing) could result in a stray attack/spell/whatever hitting the gem and unravelling the seal on the Snarl - Miko nearly does it when she assassinates Shojo. Whilst all the other Gates have their vulnerabilities, Soon's is the only one that can be accessed by anything other than a powerful, determined group of adventurers and potentially destroyed unintentionally.

Now, this is speculating here. But it seems the Gates are structurally fragile as an inherent property. Roy takes two swings with his greatsword and Girard's Gate goes from unscathed, to small scratch then straight into critical overload. Lirian's Gate was able to be pulled apart by Ent's running away. Not Ent's pulling on the Gate, just running away whilst anchored. Soon's Gate took a single sword swing. I'll grant Dorukan's Gate was destroyed by a mountain-destroying explosion, so that's whatever.

Now, does that mean the Gate's physical resiliency cannot be enhanced with spells? We don't know. But considering of the 4 Gates that have been destroyed, 3 of them have been by what seems like relatively little effort, I'm wager a guess that they are inherently fragile.

[Yendor]

Soon's mistake is that he tied leadership of the Sapphire Guard to that of Azure City. That fell into the hands of someone who did not believe in his ideals of honour (and the leadership could easily have gone to someone far worse). When Shojo's deceptions were uncovered, the SG's most powerful member went crazy and ended up destroying the gate.

[Aeson]

Draketooth's defenses were pretty lax against undead, who, when you're building your defenses with the intent of stopping evil, is probably priority #1, but at least he had a plan for what happened after he inevitably died.
I'm a bit ambivalent about whether Girard's plan for the future was a benefit or a liability, honestly. Even people you can trust will occasionally say too much or say something they shouldn't, the kidnapping the next generation thing and the theft to support the family is almost certain to backfire eventually and at least draw unwanted attention even if it doesn't reveal the existence of the gate (one of them could get caught and be forced to reveal information, someone with the resources to investigate the disappearances and thefts and turn up something will almost certainly eventually become interested, one or more of the people sent out might decide not to come back and eventually tell someone an interesting story about their past, or the whole operation will probably draw adventurers, the world of OotS being what it is and the story of people with a mysterious past disappearing with their children and a large chunk of money practically screaming "plot hook," and eventually some of those adventurers will discover enough to draw attention or may even successfully attack the pyramid), the supply runs are going to be more and more difficult to conceal as the family grows because they'll need more and more supplies (at least, as long as none of them eventually become clerics and are able to provide at least a portion of the supplies necessary), etc. Drawing attention to the gate area is the last thing they should want, and Girard's plan for the future, at least as implemented by his descendants, practically guarantees that someone with the resources to find things out is eventually going to get curious enough about what's going on to investigate, and we have in-comic evidence that it happened at least once and with some of the worst possible people to have become curious (well, sort of; Penelope might not have been exactly the wrong sort to have become curious, but her lack of discretion, especially when slightly intoxicated, and her association with Tarquin and Nale is problematic for the whole 'keeping the operation secret' thing, especially if the Draketooth clan isn't keeping too close an eye on what those they've wronged are doing and how close they're coming to finding something important out).

[factotum]

Destroying the gate, catastrophic as it was/would be ultimately isn't an issue. Gates can be rebuilt, and the world survived fine for a long time with the rifts.

It would be a lot harder to rebuild the Gates now because the rifts are so much larger. The one above Azure City was small enough to fit inside a gemstone originally, it's now so big that I don't think it would have fit inside the original throne room. The other, larger rifts like Lirian's or Dorukan's, just how big must they be by now?

Plus, the Gates are clearly a temporary solution to the problem. They lasted less than 60 years, and are prone to be being used for evil ends. I think there has to be some other solution in the end for the Rifts, but I have no idea what that is right now.

[Ruck]

As for the Gate's downfall in each case being thematically tied in with the core of its defenses, I go back and forth on how conscious a choice that was on The Giant's part.
I assume it was very deliberately so. I thought I remembered a comment from the Giant to this effect, but it's too neat for it not to be.

Lirian trusted nature, and was defeated by something unnatural.
Dorukan believed in his magic, and was defeated by a more powerful magic-user. Plus, he trusted in the pure of heart, and sometimes the pure of heart have very low Intelligence scores.
Soon believed in the honor of the paladins in the Sapphire Guard; the gate was destroyed by a fallen paladin who lost her mind because the head of the Sapphire Guard had been lying to her for years.
Girard only trusted family to protect his gate, and his family was wiped out.

(I assume this means that because Serini built Kraagor's Tomb to reflect his belief in physical might, that the gate will be destroyed by the Monster in the Dark winning a game of Go, or something like that.)


Normally not one to defend morality but I will give it a shot here.


Lirian keeping Team Evil alive was actually the correct move (baring soul trapping or the like).

Had she killed Xykon his soul would have presumably went to the lower planes where it could have talked about a universe conquering gate in order to barter for a better deal.

The only method she had to ensure the lower planes did not get the information was to attempt to reform the villains (or trap the souls).

Frankly all good people in DnD should seek to redeem villains (and minions) to prevent their souls going to the lower planes (evil gods etc) and furthering the cause of evil in the multiverse.

The problem with your argument is that it presumes a lich can be redeemed as well as presuming a lot about how the lower planes in OOTS work. If your argument holds, it also implies that Roy's quest is inherently less good, because his oath is to destroy Xykon, not redeem him.


They were not crippeled by the death of Shojo, severely weakened for sure.
Seems like splitting hairs.

[Kurald Galain]

The other three, I'm kind of all over the place on. Draketooth's defenses were pretty lax against undead,

Nope. His defenses include half a dozen near-epic wizards; that is by no means weak against undead.

Girard's weakness was that he hadn't heard of Haerta, which Dorukan probably would have.

[factotum]

Nope. His defenses include half a dozen near-epic wizards; that is by no means weak against undead.


If said wizards are specialists in illusion (which seems likely) then they're not going to do as well against undead as a regular wizard of their level would. Plus, of course, we've seen Xykon steamroll an epic wizard already, several non-epic ones would probably be little more than a speedbump for him.

[Kurald Galain]

If said wizards are specialists in illusion (which seems likely) then they're not going to do as well against undead as a regular wizard of their level would.
That's really not how wizards work.


Plus, of course, we've seen Xykon steamroll an epic wizard already, several non-epic ones would probably be little more than a speedbump for him.
Two words: action economy.

[dancrilis]

Girard's defenses also include at least seven 15th level wizards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) who are entirely capable of casting spells that aren't illusions. This means casters at the level of power and versatility of Redcloak and Vaarsuvius, and there's seven of them.

I might be missing something here but the schedule only shows three level 8 spells (well two but one twice) and as each individual casts the same spell every day that means 3 level 15 wizards from my reading - I am not sure where you are getting 7?

Also even with 3 it supposes that they are actual casting the spells themselves rather than using magic items that Girard left behind (which to my mind seems just as likely, they didn't seem to go on adventures to gain XP to reach level 15ish).

But as stated I could be missing your point.

[Kish]

I find it unlikely that the Draketooths included any wizards.

Carry on.

[Aeson]

I find it unlikely that the Draketooths included any wizards.
Roy is of the opinion that at least some of the dead Draketooths in the pyramid were wizards. Panel 13 of 842 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html). Also, that Tarquin describes Orrin Draketooth as a "street illusionist" in panel 2 of 816 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) could be taken to mean that he believes Orrin to have been a Wizard specializing in illusions.

I would further point out that Girard Draketooth doesn't appear to have any issues with wizards or arcane magic in general, at least not in what's available in the online comics; it's with divine magic and paladins that he seems to have issues.


I might be missing something here but the schedule only shows three level 8 spells (well two but one twice) and as each individual casts the same spell every day that means 3 level 15 wizards from my reading - I am not sure where you are getting 7?
Could have to do with the apparent duration of the spells; it appears as though all of the spells are scheduled to be cast once per day, and there's a minimum required caster level before something with a level-dependent duration is going to be able to last 24 hours.

[StLordeth]

Dorukan's was best, Lirian's was worst.

We haven't seen Kraagors.

As most have pointed out though, all of them had major weaknesses. Would have been far better to stay in contact. But that's sort of the point.

[Kish]

Roy didn't know that Girard was a sorcerer when he said that.

I am not saying that Girard had "issues with arcane magic." I am saying that Girard was an epic sorcerer with a ranger dip and it is likely that his family, particularly those who were described as mirroring his own obsession with arcane illusions, consisted mostly or entirely of primarily sorcerers.

[DaggerPen]

Given that sorcery is generally in the blood and that training as a wizard usually involves studying from another wizard, unless one of the Draketooths picked it up somehow and trained the others, I'd be inclined to agree that they're all sorcerers.

[FlatFish]

... sidestepping the argument that's already derailed many a thread here, I'd like to say that I find it odd that you ascribe the weakness of Girard's Gate to "the fallibility of decent people" and not "was only willing to trust family," considering that Girard was notoriously distrustful of anyone who wasn't family and had absolutely zero faith in "decent people" unless they were related by blood - and if there had been any non-blood defenders of his Gate, things may have gone quite differently.


I was thinking about Girard more broadly - when we first know of Girard, actually, it was in the first crayon drawings (I think), and later characterizations show that he doesn't trust exclusively family, but he mistrusts organizations and social things like power. (While combing through the comic for evidence, I found this nice quote from #694: "Luckily, for me, I've never trusted authority figures, be they kings, presidents, or party leaders. Give a man enough power, and he's bound to abuse it, no matter how noble he thinks he is.") Girard never disliked any of his fellow Order of the Scribble mates - in particular he trusted Serini with the coordinates to his gate, and everyone pretty much liked Kraagor. Of course, we also know Girard had a betting pool - so he wasn't entirely antisocial.

I don't know why Girard specifically chose family to defend his gate (someone pull up a quote refuting this!) but a family is not based on an exchange of money or power: it's based on blood. It was just the most convenient way to find people who were obligated to help/not hurt his cause.

I'll admit I was searching for a theme for his gate, but I thought the theme of "Blood Runs in the Family" tied in well with the weaknesses of Girard's gate: Girard, in some sense, believed in people's trust for each other to protect his gate. As much as Tarquin trusted Elan to follow his script, as much as V. trusted in his/her own ability to do what was best for his/her, as much as Malack trusted in Durkon's friendship, as much as Nale trusted in his father's good will, as much as Girard trusted Serini to protect those coordinates, Girard's reliance on the ties of his family to protect his gate was actually what screwed up his gate. (Then again, how can anyone predict a truly awful spell as Familicide?) He didn't predict that people were more than two types: lawful or chaotic. (And neutral, OK three.) People choose what their own morality is, and people cannot always be guessed to perform a typical behavior.

Since this is so convoluted and I had to pull it out of nowhere, I don't think the Giant deliberately planned this out. I do think it's a theme, though: I think when people create stuff they have a general emotion/mood they want to show in their story, and then they flesh it out. "Blood Runs in the Family", not including this arc, which I love so far, is my favorite story arc because it's really, really self-contained.

[factotum]

That's really not how wizards work.

Likely fact: these wizards specialise in illusion. Certain fact: they have to prepare some of their spell slots for the illusion spells they're casting on the canyon every day. Assumption: they would probably prepare a lot of their *other* spells as illusion also, since there is a family belief in the power of illusion to solve all their problems. Therefore, the number of spells they would actually have available that would do anything useful against Xykon is not going to be huge.

The problem is actually worse if they're sorcerers specialising in illusion, because they don't get a huge variety of spells to choose from in that case, and they'd probably pick high-end illusion spells rather than direct damage stuff.

[Kurald Galain]

Likely fact: these wizards specialise in illusion. Certain fact: they have to prepare some of their spell slots for the illusion spells they're casting on the canyon every day. Assumption: they would probably prepare a lot of their *other* spells as illusion also, since there is a family belief in the power of illusion to solve all their problems. Therefore, the number of spells they would actually have available that would do anything useful against Xykon is not going to be huge.
Counterpoint 1: high-level wizards are not stupid, and 2: they have so freakin' many spells per day that this doesn't actually matter all that much, and 3. "belief in the power of illusion to solve ALL their problems" has no basis in fact or in the comic.


The problem is actually worse if they're sorcerers specialising in illusion, because they don't get a huge variety of spells to choose from in that case, and they'd probably pick high-end illusion spells rather than direct damage stuff.
No, because if they know a single non-illusion spell that works (and again, high-level sorcerers have so freakin' many spells known) then they can keep casting that from all their spell slots. Just look at Xykon, a self-professed sledgehammer with no taste for strategy, and see how many non-blasting spells he has.

Really. A cadre of high-level spellcasters are Trouble with a capital T for anyone, and claiming that they would all only learn the one kind of spells thht undead are immune to is more than a little silly. Nobody that high is that narrow.

[skaddix]

Soon is the best. Sure Ninja could sneak in or whatever. But you cant control a gate if you destroy the gem and the ritual requires a good amount of time that you cant finish by sneaking in late at night.

[hroþila]

The Draketooths coordinated the preparation/learning and casting of protective illusions. If they also coordinated the preparation/learning of battle spells to any degree, they could take on absolutely anything.

[Pyron]

I'm willing to bet that Draketooths have more than just illusions spell in their arsenal. The trap room (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html) shows that somebody had to create runes with: Summon Monster III, Haste, Stoneskin and Meteor Swarm.

[zinycor]

I think that Girard's was the best defended gate and dorukan's was the weakest one.

[Wildroses]

Very thought provoking posts on this thread.

After much thought I've decided it doesn't matter trying to figure out which of the four gates which have fallen already were the worst. They all ultimately failed to defend their gate against sustained, deliberate effort or had their creators fail to account for some crucial factor (like Familicide) which crippled the defences. If you fail to defend something that needed defending, I'm not sure it ultimately matters how badly you failed.

If Kraagor's gate doesn't fall, then it will be the best defended. If it does, I'll call Dorukan's the best of all the failures as stayed up for six months after Dorukan fell. Unless it takes the heroes and the villans more than six months to get to it, of course, but I'm sure one or the other will figure it out before then. Surely it won't take six months in-world time to resolve the tiebreaker/vampire domination vote plot line...

[Cracklord]

To me Soon wins easily. Unlike all the others, he was (to an extent) consciously aware of his own limitations, and so put his lifework in other hands to circumvent this (the aristocracy of Azure City were in charge, despite not being paladins themselves). All without ever letting up on his own contribution - he actually died, and his word was still strong enough to keep him in play - that's pretty impressive.

Plus, unlike Lirian and Dorukan, he figured out what Xykon was, and how to beat him pretty much right away (not only did he know what a lich was, he figured out where the phylactery was a heartbeat later) - and then did. he was one full attack away from solving the problem - hell Xykon and Redcloak were giving their last words. Obviously, Miko screwed up, but you have to remember that O-Chul was about to do that himself beforehand - destroying the gate was the last line of defense, afterall. Yes some spatial awareness would have ended the story pretty quick (and left the Order of the Stick in need of a new plot hook), but that can just as easily be blamed on the lack of decent prisons in the city - Miko had been locked up remember, her getting free so easily can hardly be blamed on Soon.


The problem with your argument is that it presumes a lich can be redeemed as well as presuming a lot about how the lower planes in OOTS work. If your argument holds, it also implies that Roy's quest is inherently less good, because his oath is to destroy Xykon, not redeem him.

Yes. So? There are degrees of goodness. To quote Homer Simpson, 'he just needs one good deed, he's not going for Jesus'.

Or to put it another way, redemption is best undertaken upon those in your power, not the other way around.


I don't see how "wasn't a slave to the Gate 24/7 and cared about other things in life" constitutes any sort of failing on Lirian's part. Plus I'm pretty sure she wasn't the only druid in her glade.

If you're holding up the sky, taking an hour break is not acceptable. Assuming you care about all the people who will be crushed, anyway, but if you don't, why take the job in the first place?


After much thought I've decided it doesn't matter trying to figure out which of the four gates which have fallen already were the worst. They all ultimately failed to defend their gate against sustained, deliberate effort or had their creators fail to account for some crucial factor (like Familicide) which crippled the defences. If you fail to defend something that needed defending, I'm not sure it ultimately matters how badly you failed.

If Kraagor's gate doesn't fall, then it will be the best defended. If it does, I'll call Dorukan's the best of all the failures as stayed up for six months after Dorukan fell. Unless it takes the heroes and the villans more than six months to get to it, of course, but I'm sure one or the other will figure it out before then. Surely it won't take six months in-world time to resolve the tiebreaker/vampire domination vote plot line...

Soon died two generations ago, remember.

Nitpickery aside, something is only successful as long as it is successful is a pretty useless criteria (to my mind at least). Still, it's one that is objectively true, so fair enough.

[MesiDoomstalker]

To me Soon wins easily. Unlike all the others, he was (to an extent) consciously aware of his own limitations, and so put his lifework in other hands to circumvent this (the aristocracy of Azure City were in charge, despite not being paladins themselves). All without ever letting up on his own contribution - he actually died, and his word was still strong enough to keep him in play - that's pretty impressive.

Plus, unlike Lirian and Dorukan, he figured out what Xykon was, and how to beat him pretty much right away (not only did he know what a lich was, he figured out where the phylactery was a heartbeat later) - and then did. he was one full attack away from solving the problem - hell Xykon and Redcloak were giving their last words. Obviously, Miko screwed up, but you have to remember that O-Chul was about to do that himself beforehand - destroying the gate was the last line of defense, afterall. Yes some spatial awareness would have ended the story pretty quick (and left the Order of the Stick in need of a new plot hook), but that can just as easily be blamed on the lack of decent prisons in the city - Miko had been locked up remember, her getting free so easily can hardly be blamed on Soon.



Yes. So? There are degrees of goodness. To quote Homer Simpson, 'he just needs one good deed, he's not going for Jesus'.

Or to put it another way, redemption is best undertaken upon those in your power, not the other way around.



If you're holding up the sky, taking an hour break is not acceptable. Assuming you care about all the people who will be crushed, anyway, but if you don't, why take the job in the first place?



Soon died two generations ago, remember.

Nitpickery aside, something is only successful as long as it is successful is a pretty useless criteria (to my mind at least). Still, it's one that is objectively true, so fair enough.

Few things; Lirian's a Druid they don't know anything about Undead (weird since most fluff points to them hating Undead for being the antithesis of the natural order) and we don't know whether Dorukan identified Xykon as a Lich or not. We see him getting angry and making rash decisions. Miko was in prison. But said prison was also under assault from siege weapons. If there was any crime here, it was putting prisons in a position that siege weapons can actually hit.

[Kish]

Dorukan wasn't defeated because he happened to be fighting a lich. Dorukan was defeated because he held his foe in contempt for being a sorcerer.

[Ruck]

Yes. So? There are degrees of goodness. To quote Homer Simpson, 'he just needs one good deed, he's not going for Jesus'.

Or to put it another way, redemption is best undertaken upon those in your power, not the other way around.
So, you don't care that all your talk about redemption relies on a number of assumptions, none of which you know are true, and at least one (that a lich can be "redeemed" in any meaningful sense) is likely not to be?

[factotum]

Lirian's a Druid they don't know anything about Undead (weird since most fluff points to them hating Undead for being the antithesis of the natural order)

Makes perfect sense to me--they hate Undead and the entire idea of undeath generally, so they're forbidden from learning anything about it (the "la la la you don't exist" school of dealing with a problem).

[Cracklord]

Few things; Lirian's a Druid they don't know anything about Undead (weird since most fluff points to them hating Undead for being the antithesis of the natural order) and we don't know whether Dorukan identified Xykon as a Lich or not. We see him getting angry and making rash decisions. Miko was in prison. But said prison was also under assault from siege weapons. If there was any crime here, it was putting prisons in a position that siege weapons can actually hit.


Makes perfect sense to me--they hate Undead and the entire idea of undeath generally, so they're forbidden from learning anything about it (the "la la la you don't exist" school of dealing with a problem).

That's fair, and doesn't bother me. I figure it's a matter of specializing - she's the primary divine spellcaster in her adventuring party, and doesn't need to be a healer because the paladin has got positive energy covered. So Lirian advanced focused increasingly on her role in the party (whatever that was), and so didn't bother to keep up with the rest. An understandable blind spot, one you see all the time in real life, but one that seriously hurt her. Still, why would she focus on undead? When she was leveling up, she had Soon Kim in her party, who clearly was completely on the ball in that regard, so it makes sense for her specialty to focus on something else.

The reason I give it to Soon, (four and a half stars) is that he made an effort to overcome his own blind spots unlike everyone else. He knew there were limitations to what a paladin could and not do, and rather then compromise he handed it over to someone who could do both, preserving what made his gate strong in the first place, while also allowing it to take other measures as necessary. An incredible display of trust, yes, but one that seemed to work out for him pretty well. It even put the Order of the Stick on the path to saving the day. Ironically a paladin did ultimately undo all his good work, but at least the paladin had to fall first, and so by definition was not a paladin.

While Lirian and Durokan, despite communicating and keeping a long distance relationship going, never thought to combine their powers at all. Sure, the pure of heart thing worked out pretty well, but that, at best, stalled the opposition, where Soon's personal trump-card would have actually won.

Don't get me started on Girard.

Also, on a slightly unrelated note, is it just me, or is it weird that in the sixty-six years since the gates were built, Soon died of old age (he might have been older then he looked during the adventuring, but that much older?), entrusted the gate to Shojo's father (at the time a child), for Shojo's father to then die of old age, and Shojo to become an 'octogenarian'?


So, you don't care that all your talk about redemption relies on a number of assumptions, none of which you know are true, and at least one (that a lich can be "redeemed" in any meaningful sense) is likely not to be?

All my talk is about two sentences that you're reading a lot into, but fine. Here's some talk.

If we accept the existence of free will, or rather the existence of personal agency (hardly any sort of certainty in a world where NPC is a state of being), then anything is possible - evil actions do not preclude good actions being committed at a later point. Of course, likely is a whole different matter - as Xykon is written as a sadist who's only remaining pleasure is making others suffer (all the things he used to enjoy, like drinking coffee, can't occur anymore now that he's undead), but that should be pretty obvious. Given his basic mindset, he's unlikely to seek any sort of absolution, but that's as much his a result of his personality as his condition (being undead).

There is the question of what Redemption even is, given the existence of powerful deities, forces of good as a monolithic force (heaven and angels), and the fact that evil has it's own equal representation, so for the sake of this argument lets use it to refer to human society rather then alignment, since the latter is just unhelpful. If Roy (or whichever other rugged individualist you like) was to successfully rehabilitate Xykon, that would be a very good thing, and the world would be better for it. For one thing, him using his immense powers for the benefit of society and the common good would be a wonderful thing, for another it would strengthen society not just by removing a threat to it, but by adding that threats power to society.

So redeeming him would be a good deed, no argument from me, but not a practical one. The ideal of redemption, is that the individual in question sincerely wants to change, and comes to the subject contritely and asks for help - a modern analogy would be an alcoholic who realizes he has a serious problem and seeks assistance. As I just established, that's unlikely with Xykon, who is characterized as a hedonist whose only remaining form of gratification is sadism (the other things he used to like, such as drinking coffee, aren't possible to a lich), however he's got sufficiently high mental scores to realize his big plan is just a self-destructive cry for attention, and perhaps that might make him want to change, although he's more likely to go into seclusion and figure out something else in the name of evil then go and ask for help.

So assuming Xykon keeps going the way he is going (which is a pretty safe assumption), what should Roy do (Roy being the leader of the party, and the rugged individualist in the medium responsible for it all). Even as a lawful good individual, there are distinct choices.

As far as theories of punishment go, this is Redemption would be a form of Rehabilitative punishment - the goal being to prevent future behavior by giving the offender in question the ability to succeed within the confines of society. This is the goal of many state institutions in our world, and while it's success can be somewhat spotty, it's generally the most merciful. However, to practically undertake it you need some means to restrain the individual in question - which is difficult considering Xykon. Without that, there is nothing to stop him laving any time he should wish, and continuing causing chaos and devastation. Lets face it, Roy can't even control Belkar with any reliability.

Even if they do capture him in a manner he cannot escape from, what then? Traditional rehabilitative measures for criminal offenders usually include treatment for afflictions such as mental illness, chemical dependency, and chronic violent behavior, as well as the use of educational programs that give offenders the knowledge and skills needed to benefit society. Less contemporary rehabilitative processes often mean taking vows and being shut away in a monastery, or spending the rest of your life an indentured slave. This being high fantasy, we have other options, like a noble quest or what have you. There are even some magical effects that would instantly efface such a thing, Charm person or suggestion if you don't mind constant supervision, and if you've got access to high level spells Mindrape for instance, and I believe there is an equivalent in the Book of Exalted Deeds. Of course, using such magic is pretty contemptible, an argument could be made it's worse than slavery (which is bad for society) and he's a lich, immune to mind-effecting spells regardless.

However, there is another view - retributive theory. By this reasoning, the offender in question is being punished for his crimes because he deserves punishment. Xykon's behavior upsets the peaceful balance of society, and punishment helps to restore the balance. This can be justified as a form of vengeance - wrongdoers should be forced to suffer because they have forced others to suffer, or a form of preventative - making the consequences of crime sufficiently vicious to deter others from committing it.

Finally, there is preventative punishment, utilized to prevent the action from occurring in the first place, in this instance 'kill Xykon to prevent him from destroying the world'.

Of course, all this presupposes that the Gods care one way or another (hardly a certainty) and that society is strong enough to actually have a say one way or another. Lets face it, fantasy means it's medieval times baby, and more to the point, medieval times where most of the world is full of predators that can rout entire armies, as well as in fierce competition with other species many of which are physically stronger then the base classes, not to mention that landsharks are a thing. So who cares one way or another?

Killing people because you want to is the basis of most games of DnD, both as an adventure hook (hey, those orcs decided they didn't want to pay for my fathers masterwork weapons, so they killed him, could you do something) and as a natural consideration of the players themselves (you killed barn bloodmoor, my father!). And that's also a cold harsh reality that everyone in D&D land has to live with. Remember: noone has written The Rights of Man. Heck, no one has even written Leviathan. Or Machiavelli's the Prince. Ask Tamerlain or Draconis or Shang Yang what they think visionary and progressive theories of societal law and order are, and you got a bit of an idea.

Given the actual and unquestionable existence of hell and heaven, easily achievable immortality and the fact that in two months hard work any four people can reach epic level and thereby upset the entire world, most social theories are just so much hot air, given that the individual literally is more powerful then the society itself.

In short, do I think that it's a good act to redeem Xykon? Hell yes. Do I think it's reasonably practical? Hell no. Do I think it's a good act to kill the ****er? Not necessarily, but to save the world? Sure is!

My thoughts.

[Kish]

Makes perfect sense to me--they hate Undead and the entire idea of undeath generally, so they're forbidden from learning anything about it (the "la la la you don't exist" school of dealing with a problem).
I would look askance at anyone who said that people in real life who took that approach were particularly wise, much less wise enough to cast spells from their Wisdom ability score.

[Pyron]

Also, on a slightly unrelated note, is it just me, or is it weird that in the sixty-six years since the gates were built, Soon died of old age (he might have been older then he looked during the adventuring, but that much older?), entrusted the gate to Shojo's father (at the time a child), for Shojo's father to then die of old age, and Shojo to become an 'octogenarian'?

Shojo's father didn't live to old age; he died soon after he was given command of the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

[Keltest]

Shojo's father didn't live to old age; he died soon after he was given command of the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

I believe it was Soon who died of old age. not Shojo's father, however the timeline still seems unlikely to allow for Shojo to be an octogenarian.

[Jasdoif]

I believe it was Soon who died of old age. not Shojo's father, however the timeline still seems unlikely to allow for Shojo to be an octogenarian.Perhaps Roy rounded up instead of trying to pronounce "septuagenarian" :smalltongue:

[Pyron]

I believe it was Soon who died of old age. not Shojo's father, however the timeline still seems unlikely to allow for Shojo to be an octogenarian.

Now that I look at it again, it appears your belief is correct. Still, there isn't much evidence to suggest that Shojo's father lived to old age, and there was a good 19 years between Soon's rift quest and Shojo assuming leadership. I think the timeline can work out.

Unless Shojo's age is exactly specified in one of supplemental book, then I would just take the 'octogenarian' comment with a grain.

[Cracklord]

I would look askance at anyone who said that people in real life who took that approach were particularly wise, much less wise enough to cast spells from their Wisdom ability score.

Head-in-the-sand management is one thing, specializing in a particular field to the detriment of others is entirely another. I'd be very suspicious of any lawyer, for example, who claims to be equally skilled at criminal prosecution, family law and civil rights. That's the reason we have adventuring parties, rather then batman-wizards.


Shojo's father didn't live to old age; he died soon after he was given command of the Sapphire Guard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html).

You're absolutely right. Good catch, and my bad.

When we don't have a lot of information to work with, I tend to take every bit we do as gospel.

[DaggerPen]

Now that I look at it again, it appears your belief is correct. Still, there isn't much evidence to suggest that Shojo's father lived to old age, and there was a good 19 years between Soon's rift quest and Shojo assuming leadership. I think the timeline can work out.

Unless Shojo's age is exactly specified in one of supplemental book, then I would just take the 'octogenarian' comment with a grain.

I'd peg him in the 70s range as well. He looks about 4-6 in the flashback of the command of Azure City being transferred over 66 years ago - if we peg him as 6, he could have been 72 when he died and have the timeline fit just fine.

[Cracklord]

Except that Soon himself had noticeably aged since the days of adventuring and the founding of the Sapphire Guard.

Hell, Lord Shojo himself says he's run the Saphire Guard for 47 years.

[factotum]

I'd peg him in the 70s range as well. He looks about 4-6 in the flashback of the command of Azure City being transferred over 66 years ago - if we peg him as 6, he could have been 72 when he died and have the timeline fit just fine.

Except "66 years ago" wasn't when the command of the Sapphire Guard was transferred, it was when Soon's wife was killed and the search for the rifts began. Soon had black hair at that time, yet he has white hair when handing over command, so one has to assume there's a number of years in between the two events. The timeline just doesn't add up no matter how you slice it--either the 66 years has to be a mistake, the command of the Sapphire Guard being transferred to Shojo's father rather than Shojo himself is wrong, or (very unlikely) Shojo wasn't meant to be all that old.

[Ruck]

In short, do I think that it's a good act to redeem Xykon? Hell yes. Do I think it's reasonably practical? Hell no. Do I think it's a good act to kill the ****er? Not necessarily, but to save the world? Sure is!

My thoughts.

Well, when it comes down to this, I don't think we disagree. I was confused by your seeming statements that if Xykon were to be killed, he'd end up gaining power in the Chaotic Evil plane, thus it was better to let him live. Sorry if I misunderstood you.


Also, on a slightly unrelated note, is it just me, or is it weird that in the sixty-six years since the gates were built, Soon died of old age (he might have been older then he looked during the adventuring, but that much older?), entrusted the gate to Shojo's father (at the time a child), for Shojo's father to then die of old age, and Shojo to become an 'octogenarian'?

Yeah, I think of this too. I believe Shojo was officially in his 70s, and he's been commander of the Sapphire Guard for 47 years, yet it's only been sixty-six years since the first rift was even found, let alone the rest of the events that led to the sealing of the Gate and the founding of the Sapphire Gaurd.

It doesn't really add up, unless Soon aged a lot in a short amount of time, or he wasn't a boy when his father became commander of the Sapphire Guard, and his father lasted a very short time in the role. I guess if you wanted to tell me Soon's hair was already going gray in the flashbacks, and it's not just the crayon effect, and Shojo meant "16 or 17" when he said "just a boy," I could buy it.

[Emanick]

Well, when it comes down to this, I don't think we disagree. I was confused by your seeming statements that if Xykon were to be killed, he'd end up gaining power in the Chaotic Evil plane, thus it was better to let him live. Sorry if I misunderstood you.



Yeah, I think of this too. I believe Shojo was officially in his 70s, and he's been commander of the Sapphire Guard for 47 years, yet it's only been sixty-six years since the first rift was even found, let alone the rest of the events that led to the sealing of the Gate and the founding of the Sapphire Gaurd.

It doesn't really add up, unless Soon aged a lot in a short amount of time, or he wasn't a boy when his father became commander of the Sapphire Guard, and his father lasted a very short time in the role. I guess if you wanted to tell me Soon's hair was already going gray in the flashbacks, and it's not just the crayon effect, and Shojo meant "16 or 17" when he said "just a boy," I could buy it.

Rich has gone on record saying that he messed up the chronology in this case. I wish he'd issue a revised timeline. The disparity drives me crazy; it's probably the biggest continuity error in the comic.

[hamishspence]

Rich has gone on record saying that he messed up the chronology in this case.


This post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=207299&postcount=37


Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.

shows us Shojo was originally conceived as 68 when the Order meet him - and according to the Class and Geekery thread, War & XPs shows us Shojo was 72+. That means that at least 4 more years need to fit in somewhere - but it's not a huge problem. It simply means Soon hands over the gem 4 years earlier - if Shojo is still to be 12 when the handover takes place.



Interestingly, with the handover taking place when Soon is 54 instead of 58 - he has just entered the Old age class (53 for humans) - which is exactly when you would expect some change in appearance.

[Cracklord]

Rich has gone on record saying that he messed up the chronology in this case. I wish he'd issue a revised timeline. The disparity drives me crazy; it's probably the biggest continuity error in the comic.

Ah. That'd about do it. Well as long as I'm not missing some crucial fact, I guess.

So how long was Xykno in Durokan's dungeon again? I remember a mention of a couple of months, but I can't quite recall.


Shojo was originally conceived as 68 when the Order meet him - and according to the Class and Geekery thread, War & XPs shows us Shojo was 72+. That means that at least 4 more years need to fit in somewhere - but it's not a huge problem. It simply means Soon hands over the gem 4 years earlier - if Shojo is still to be 12 when the handover takes place.

Interestingly, with the handover taking place when Soon is 54 instead of 58 - he has just entered the Old age class (53 for humans) - which is exactly when you would expect some change in appearance.

Thank you for your wisdom. That clears everything up, and isn't particularly messy either.


Well, when it comes down to this, I don't think we disagree. I was confused by your seeming statements that if Xykon were to be killed, he'd end up gaining power in the Chaotic Evil plane, thus it was better to let him live. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

…What? When did I say any such thing?

I replied to your offhand mention (that adventuring with the intent to kill is less morally defensible then adventuring with the intent to redeem), and explained my thoughts on the different theories of punishment, I even pointed out the futility of contemporary concepts of objective good and evil as applied to another world, but I don't believe I've brought up the Lower Planes. Is it possible you have me confused with somebody else?

[Hecuba]

Soon's gate seems objectively to have been the best protected: he nearly defeated Xykon and Redcloak, and presumably the Ghost-Martyrs would have re-spawned if defeated in any other manner (at least, if they are in fact based on Sacred Watchers). Actually holding that gate would have required to withstand repeated siege of by the Ghost Martyrs every time they returned.

It's also worth noting that the, while he may have pissed off his party members and shot the efforts in the foot, the fact that the Sapphire Guard was as proactive with the other gates as their oaths allowed says something.

Dorukan's gate seems a close second: Xykon was in uncontested control of the gate for an extended period and was unable to breach its defenses.

Kraggor's gate seems to be sound as well. At very least, it is requiring team Evil to attempt dungeon crawls they have to take seriously - it sounds like 1 a day, and they're pulling out significant long-duration buffs. Considering that Xykon is safely in the epic range and Redcloak is (at least) nearly so, that means that the protections are at least not inappropriately weak. Notably it minimizes risk even if the direct protection is insufficient: if an enemy can get through the threats (which are appropriate for an epic level duo), then the many doors should still delay them. If she is running a shell game and it is poorly constructed it could undermine the protections, but that remains to be seen

Girard's gate gets something of a pass based on the effects of famlicide (sp?), but the reliance on illusions is still problematic. True sight and immunity to mind effecting would cut through most of the layered defenses, which means they don't really provide any defense in depth. Potentially, Epic effects cast by Girard himself could manage to shore up some of this. Still, however, this represents a fundamental flaw in how they approached the matter of security.

He does get some points for some degree of forward thinking: he actively recruits family to continue the mission, indicating that he actively planned for the gate's functioning following his demise.

Lirian, however, did not. Following her demise, getting control of her gate would merely require immunity to disease and killing the animals. Elves live a long time, but they are not immortal. And even if they were, they are not un-killable or generally self-resurrecting. If she had some measure of self-reincarnation planned, she could get more credit for herself as a guardian (and it would make the trap the soul measure more important).

[Kish]

Perhaps Roy rounded up instead of trying to pronounce "septuagenarian" :smalltongue:
Barring the unlikely possibility that Roy at some point asked Shojo "exactly how old are you?" and got an informative answer rather than a snarky one, I would say it's effectively certain that Roy just grabbed for a word that meant "really old guy" and threw it at Miko, with as much concern with accuracy as Belkar had when he declared Shojo a billion years old.

[chy03001]

Lirian's was the worst in my mind:

Soon's was the best in my mind:
A secret order of paladins dedicated to preemptively eliminating threats, linking the gate to the center of power so regardless of who held the thrown (even if they didn't know about the gate which may have happened if the leader got assassinated) so it would be protected, and situated in a prominent city which would not present a soft target for most, and than himself and a legion of all the deceased members of the paladin order to defend it.
It was a tough cookie to crack.


I gotta agree with this. Even without an army of lawful good paladins, the people of that region would have fought to defend their home from outside invaders out of a sense of self preservation. And because it's a sacred order, it is more reliable than keeping it all in one family or relying on any one particular individual.

[Ruck]

…What? When did I say any such thing?

I replied to your offhand mention (that adventuring with the intent to kill is less morally defensible then adventuring with the intent to redeem), and explained my thoughts on the different theories of punishment, I even pointed out the futility of contemporary concepts of objective good and evil as applied to another world, but I don't believe I've brought up the Lower Planes. Is it possible you have me confused with somebody else?

You're right, it wasn't you, but you took my objections to that theory and ran with them so I assumed it was.

[factotum]

shows us Shojo was originally conceived as 68 when the Order meet him - and according to the Class and Geekery thread, War & XPs shows us Shojo was 72+.

On the other hand, Shojo says in #288 "I'm glad you figured that out before I advanced another age category", and the last age category for humans is Venerable at 70 (I think), so that would imply that yes, he was less than 70 at the time?

[bguy]

Lirian, however, did not. Following her demise, getting control of her gate would merely require immunity to disease and killing the animals. Elves live a long time, but they are not immortal. And even if they were, they are not un-killable or generally self-resurrecting. If she had some measure of self-reincarnation planned, she could get more credit for herself as a guardian (and it would make the trap the soul measure more important).

Lirian had an army helping to defend her gate, and they seemed pretty dedicated.

Given that they apparently fought against a rampaging Xykon for 11 straight days without breaking.

So I would expect that army would have continued to guard the gate even after Lirian was gone.

[Cracklord]

Lirian, however, did not. Following her demise, getting control of her gate would merely require immunity to disease and killing the animals. Elves live a long time, but they are not immortal. And even if they were, they are not un-killable or generally self-resurrecting. If she had some measure of self-reincarnation planned, she could get more credit for herself as a guardian (and it would make the trap the soul measure more important).

She's a druid. Reincarnation is a trivial spell (I believe its actually the lowest level resurrection effect), and more to the point, reverses age categories. It might mean that the gate would sometimes be defended by a high level druid badger or gorilla (and if the latter happened, would she have to reshuffle the ecosystem to keep herself from being an invasive species?) but it'd get the job done.

If that was her intended strategy, then provided shes able to maintain dedication, it's arguably the best long term defense - at least, from a certain point of view.

[Kurald Galain]

She's a druid. Reincarnation is a trivial spell (I believe its actually the lowest level resurrection effect),

It is. Also, it's worth noting that anyone with access to epic magic (i.e. Dorukan and Lirian, but not Soon and Girard) can use that to become immortal. That's another way to deal with succession.

[Keltest]

Succession isn't really the point for Lirian. She repeatedly left the gate to go deal with personal matters. Dorukan was at least smart enough to arrange for his various needs to come to him, but while Lirian was gone, as far as we know she wasn't able to participate in gate defense at all.

[Cracklord]

Succession isn't really the point for Lirian. She repeatedly left the gate to go deal with personal matters. Dorukan was at least smart enough to arrange for his various needs to come to him, but while Lirian was gone, as far as we know she wasn't able to participate in gate defense at all.

Not so fast, padre, I know the answer to this fallacy: We don't know that there isn't either!

We don't know that there isn't (for example) an alarm effect that allows her to instantly return should her ecosystem be disrupted. We didn't see it one way or another, so what we know is exactly that: not a thing.

[Keltest]

Not so fast, padre, I know the answer to this fallacy: We don't know that there isn't either!

We don't know that there isn't (for example) an alarm effect that allows her to instantly return should her ecosystem be disrupted. We didn't see it one way or another, so what we know is exactly that: not a thing.

Well if were going to decide that there may be additional defenses to compensate for perceived weaknesses that we just didn't know about, the entire exercise becomes pointless. We can be reasonably certain that the Draketooth clan had abilities besides illusions at their disposal, even if they weren't great, but theres no indication at all that Lirian compensated for her absences.

[Cracklord]

Well if were going to decide that there may be additional defenses to compensate for perceived weaknesses that we just didn't know about, the entire exercise becomes pointless. We can be reasonably certain that the Draketooth clan had abilities besides illusions at their disposal, even if they weren't great, but theres no indication at all that Lirian compensated for her absences.

Sure, but we can't assume they're unable to mount a defense against situations that are entirely hypothetical either. Otherwise you wind up saying that Soon's gate is the weakest because he failed to account for creatures with burrow (the obligatory dungeons beneath the city providing a ready means of circumventing the defenses), or Girard's because he doesn't have any planar lock system in place, so any fiend can just reach over and steal the gate any time they want.

[Keltest]

Sure, but we can't assume they're unable to mount a defense against situations that are entirely hypothetical either. Otherwise you wind up saying that Soon's gate is the weakest because he failed to account for creatures with burrow (the obligatory dungeons beneath the city providing a ready means of circumventing the defenses), or Girard's because he doesn't have any planar lock system in place, so any fiend can just reach over and steal the gate any time they want.

Not a particularly good comparison. We know Lirian left the gate on a semi-frequent basis, and we never saw any indication she left anything behind to compensate for her absence. We don't know that there is any particular vulnerability in the palace to burrowers that needed to be accounted for, and we KNOW fiends cannot act so directly on the mortal plane like that, per word of the IFCC.

[Cracklord]

Fair enough, they're not very good examples at all. It's actually surprisingly difficult to come up with one, now that I sit down and try to. What I came up with is 'Durokan's bypass corridors might have been trapped, warded and guarded significantly better back in the day, and his dungeons might have been made significantly less challenging so that Xykon was more likely to get the 'good-aligned, pure-of-heart' types that he needed where he needed them to be. It's unfortunately somewhat supported (Xykon luring the wizard out in the first place), so it doesn't really work anyway.

But my chronic lack of ability to come up with an imaginative bypass is not on trial here :smalltongue:. The assumption that she placed the gate in danger with her absence is just that - an assumption.

[Thrillhouse]

I'd say each of the members had an important INSIGHT into gate defense that several of the others lacked, so of course they're all weak in some way.

Lirian correctly guessed that spellcasters in particular would be the people most likely to want access to the gates (which makes sense since you're going to need magic to do evil stuff to it). So despite it being a somewhat poorly defended gate on the whole, choosing to focus her defense on the most likely type of enemy that would threaten them was not necessarily a bad call.

Dorukan, aside from recognizing that it would be good to wardthe gate so that evil characters couldn't touch it would be crucial in case his own presence and magical defenses failed to kill intruders, seems to be the only member of the order to recognize that destroying the gates is not actually the worst case scenario: thus the self destruct rune in case the gate becomes corrupted.

Soon understood that you need reliable people that you can be sure will not abandon the gate. The palaldin oaths as well as the building of a city--people will always want to defend their home even if they couldn't care less about a gate--ensure that a great force will be present for a long time.

Girard's main insight is twofold: if they can't find the gate at all, you really don't need to worry about defenses. Large heavily defended targets attract enemies--hiding the gates is as important as defending them. Secondly, he recognized that Good characters can also be villains. Neither Soon nor Dorukan took this into account in any serious manner.

Since Serini seems to have modelled the gate after what she understood Kragor's philosophy to be, this insight is really his: it's better to be impenetrable in practice than in theory. The other gates are all great in theory because they preemptively eliminate a certain type of threat. But, against the threats they don't "block", they can be overrun. A non spellcaster with enough force can topple Lirian's gate. Magic can be dispelled. Soon trusted his Paladins and Girard trusted his family, but both are subject to human error (especially the latter--a few well placed bribes to a disgruntled cousin in the family could have undermined those defenses too). Kragor's gate eliminates no specific threat. It simply aims to amass a lot of brute force. The only way to get in is to bring more brute force of your own to the table. In theory it's totally penetrable. In practice, you'll need a lot of time and power.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Kragor's will be the best defense. This is largely due to my unsubstantiated theory that this isn't about choosing the right door but rather that some magic prevents you from getting to the gate until every last monster in every door is dead.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Not a particularly good comparison. We know Lirian left the gate on a semi-frequent basis, and we never saw any indication she left anything behind to compensate for her absence. We don't know that there is any particular vulnerability in the palace to burrowers that needed to be accounted for, and we KNOW fiends cannot act so directly on the mortal plane like that, per word of the IFCC.

The word of Fiends should never be trusted. Remember Lee is a LE Archdevil, kings of legalese, technically correct statements, word twisting, etc.

[Yendor]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess Kragor's will be the best defense. This is largely due to my unsubstantiated theory that this isn't about choosing the right door but rather that some magic prevents you from getting to the gate until every last monster in every door is dead.

This, or some variation on it, is quite plausible to me. So many people here think the answer to "Which door is the gate behind?" is "None of them." But what if it's "All of them?"

[hamishspence]

On the other hand, Shojo says in #288 "I'm glad you figured that out before I advanced another age category", and the last age category for humans is Venerable at 70 (I think), so that would imply that yes, he was less than 70 at the time?

That fits in well with the idea that he was intended to be 68 back in 2006.

With the age retcon from War & XPs, one could change it to a slightly more metaphorical usage - with the last Age category after Venerable being Dead.

[Ruck]

The word of Fiends should never be trusted. Remember Lee is a LE Archdevil, kings of legalese, technically correct statements, word twisting, etc.

Can you find the loophole in "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal"? I can't.

[Cracklord]

The classic one is presupposition of no already existing deals in play (allowing him to act in pursuit of them while the negotiation is happening). As well as the intentional obscuring what the deal in question actually entails, and what actions he can undertake in regards to making one (evocation, for instance).

Either of those do it for you?

[Outliar]

Everyone is saying that Soon's gate was the best defended because of the huge army and the paladins that pre-emptively got rid of threats and other stuff. However as far as I can tell these paladins that take on pre-emptive threats were literally the worse defence since (I haven't read SoD so please correct me if I'm wrong) they were responsible for Redcloak trying to use the gates in the first place. So it seems to me that the paladins were the worse defence since their attack on RC's village was what endangered all the gates anyway which is the opposite of what a defence should be doing.
But, I haven't read SoD so this could all be completely incorrect, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Cracklord]

SoD deals with Redcloak's motivations. Not the Dark One's (at least in any detail). Sure, Redcloak would have been a different man, but this has been the Dark One's plan since shortly after he ascended to divinity, and the Sapphire Guard were aware of it. Which was why they were trying to destroy the bearer of the crimson mantle in the first place (my personal bit of fanon is the Order of the Scribble encountered a previous one, back in the day, and it was Baron Pineapple - leading to them knowing this much, but there is no actual evidence for this whatsoever).

So it's a whole chicken and the egg thing. The goblins Spiritual Leader (whoever that might be) would still be trying to bring about the plan, though possibly in a different way. Xykon might or might not be involved (I think recruiting him was actually Right-eye's plan anyway). The Hobgoblins would still attack if someone talked them into it (They never knew or cared about that particular atrocity) - essentially, it's possible that without their efforts it just would have happened sooner.

Or not. Hard to say.

[Kurald Galain]

We don't know that there isn't (for example) an alarm effect that allows her to instantly return should her ecosystem be disrupted.
But we do know druids don't have anything remotely like that on their spell list.


Can you find the loophole in "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal"? I can't.
Easily. Find a location or group of people you need to be with, and start making a deal there. That's more-or-less exactly what they did with Vaarsuvius.

[Cracklord]

But we do know druids don't have anything remotely like that on their spell list.

Certainly not their core spell list, anyway, as far as I can see. There are plenty of source-books, there might be something if you're willing to look (and whose to say she wasn't). If that doesn't do it for you, then you you're going to have to look elsewhere. I mean, there's plenty of house-rule stuff in the comic already, even in regards to her, and epic magic can do anything (like, say, attune you to a place), but if that's a bit rich for you, hey, you know who can? Wizards. If only she maintained a good relationship with a high level one who could arrange that for her with two trivial spells (alarm and contingency, if you're asking).

Or do you think the two of them, after adventuring together for years and maintaining a close relationship afterwards never once talked shop? Hell, I can see her using that as an excuse to visit him in the first place.

[Kurald Galain]

Certainly not their core spell list, anyway, as far as I can see. There are plenty of source-books, there might be something if you're willing to look (and whose to say she wasn't).

As we've established, the problem with all gates is that each Scribble member made the defenses by himself without direct support from the others.

So at least, that makes it extremely unlikely that Lirian has access to some fancy alarm-and-teleport spell, despite the fact that that's not at all the kind of magic that druids use.

[Cracklord]

To be fair, we actually do know that Durokan intentionally weakened his defenses (the cloister spell) so she could come and visit (it's in fact the whole point of this particular question in regard to her defenses). And 'only usable by the pure of heart' is far more divine magic then arcane magic - are there even wizard spells that have alignment restrictions? Like, any?

Also remember, the rift was between Soon, Girard and Duroakn - Lirian wasn't involved in it.

[Kurald Galain]

And 'only usable by the pure of heart' is far more divine magic then arcane magic - are there even wizard spells that have alignment restrictions? Like, any?

Sure, starting with the first-level Protection From Evil.

[Cracklord]

Well, that's me put in my place isn't it. :smalltongue:

Fair enough, I concede the point.

[factotum]

But we do know druids don't have anything remotely like that on their spell list.

Neither do they have anything remotely like "Create half of a mystic gate that will seal an ancient entity of Chaos in its prison", but I note she managed that somehow anyway.

[Hecuba]

She's a druid. Reincarnation is a trivial spell (I believe its actually the lowest level resurrection effect), and more to the point, reverses age categories. It might mean that the gate would sometimes be defended by a high level druid badger or gorilla (and if the latter happened, would she have to reshuffle the ecosystem to keep herself from being an invasive species?) but it'd get the job done.

If that was her intended strategy, then provided shes able to maintain dedication, it's arguably the best long term defense - at least, from a certain point of view.

The fact that it was an available option is why I pointed it out. If she had some form of contingent Reincarnation in place, she moves up the list significantly in my mind - probably to 3. But that simply isn't attested.

Even with mechanism, though, her defense shows tactical insight but strategic weakness. The disease was, indeed, an inspired tactical choice. It leaves a gaping hole open, however, when faced with someone immune to disease. Since undeath is one of the primary vectors for such immunity, anti-undead prep would be highly advisable: at very least, it would narrow the scope of the strategic weakness.

[Kish]

Well, that's me put in my place isn't it. :smalltongue:

Fair enough, I concede the point.
Except that that's incorrect; an evil wizard is free to prepare and cast spells with the Good descriptor. Protection from Evil is just likely to be less useful for an antagonist to use against most PCs than Protection from Good, so it rarely comes up; using a Summon Monster spell to summon a celestial creature rather than a fiendish one is more useful in a lot of situations (nothing like watching a paladin try to Smite Evil a celestial lion).

Druids also get detection spells and get Tree Stride at the same level wizards get basic Teleport, so "don't have anything remotely like that on their spell lists" and "not at all the kind of magic druids use" are equally incorrect. All I'm seeing here is that Kurald is assuming Lirian must have been crippled as a spellcaster because of perceiving druids as crippled spellcasters (seriously, what are they allowed to cast in Kurald's game, if basic alarm and transport spells are all obviously unambiguously wrong for them? Animal summoning and direct damage are okay, I presume; plant growth, maybe some others as long as they deal with animals and plants directly and in a way that doesn't involve alerts or transportation; is that it?). If for whatever weird reason you feel the need to stick to core even when dealing with an established-epic primary caster as powerful as Dorukan, and assume she always visited Dorukan and never the other way around, cast Foresight on one of the treants guarding the Gate* and have Word of Recall prepared.

*Though, again, there is no basis for presuming she didn't get warnings of some kind long before that.

[Cracklord]

Except that that's incorrect; an evil wizard is free to prepare and cast spells with the Good descriptor. Protection from Evil is just likely to be less useful for an antagonist to use against most PCs than Protection from Good, so it rarely comes up; using a Summon Monster spell to summon a celestial creature rather than a fiendish one is more useful in a lot of situations (nothing like watching a paladin try to Smite Evil a celestial lion).

Druids also get detection spells and get Tree Stride at the same level wizards get basic Teleport, so "don't have anything remotely like that on their spell lists" and "not at all the kind of magic druids use" are equally incorrect. All I'm seeing here is that Kurald is assuming Lirian must have been crippled as a spellcaster because of perceiving druids as crippled spellcasters (seriously, what are they allowed to cast in Kurald's game, if basic alarm and transport spells are all obviously unambiguously wrong for them? Animal summoning and direct damage are okay, I presume; plant growth, maybe some others as long as they deal with animals and plants directly and in a way that doesn't involve alerts or transportation; is that it?). If for whatever weird reason you feel the need to stick to core even when dealing with an established-epic primary caster as powerful as Dorukan, and assume she always visited Dorukan and never the other way around, cast Foresight on one of the treants guarding the Gate* and have Word of Recall prepared.

*Though, again, there is no basis for presuming she didn't get warnings of some kind long before that.

There's a lesson to be learned here for me about not conceding the field too early. Well, given that Druids do indeed have readily available methods of early-warning systems and teleportation without resorting to dependence on an arcane spell-caster, I think we can safely put that particular argument to rest.

[Ruck]

Can you find the loophole in "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal"? I can't.

Easily. Find a location or group of people you need to be with, and start making a deal there. That's more-or-less exactly what they did with Vaarsuvius.
But they did want to make (and did make) a deal with Vaarsuvius; they weren't looking for an excuse to talk to V about something else and thus used a deal as a pretext.

The classic one is presupposition of no already existing deals in play (allowing him to act in pursuit of them while the negotiation is happening). As well as the intentional obscuring what the deal in question actually entails, and what actions he can undertake in regards to making one (evocation, for instance).

Either of those do it for you?
If I follow you, then not really in this specific case, because that line was delivered to Qarr as a way of explaining why they needed him in their employ. What motives do they have to lie to him about why they need him? If they had more power to act than they were letting on, then they wouldn't need him, and they wouldn't have hired him, and thus they wouldn't have said this at all.

[DaggerPen]

But they did want to make (and did make) a deal with Vaarsuvius; they weren't looking for an excuse to talk to V about something else and thus used a deal as a pretext.

If I follow you, then not really in this specific case, because that line was delivered to Qarr as a way of explaining why they needed him in their employ. What motives do they have to lie to him about why they need him? If they had more power to act than they were letting on, then they wouldn't need him, and they wouldn't have hired him, and thus they wouldn't have said this at all.

In addition to this, I'd point out one thing - when they appeared to V, V asked for the deal. Not just in vague "Oh, I'd do anything for a way out of this" terms, or metaphorical "I'd sell my soul for this sort of thing". V specifically told Qarr "I am willing to sell my soul to save my family, contact your home office and hook me up." And further, Qarr specifically sent an application in the general direction of the Nine Hells, which is completely in line with the IFCC's statement that they can only act on the mortal plane when they're making a deal and they need imps to do stuff for them, likely including facilitating that deal in the first place. I suppose they could have just sent Qarr up to V to offer another deal and use that as a pretext, but that may well have tipped their hand more than they'd have liked, aside from any potential other limitations (actually, if the area was under Cloister, could Qarr have even teleported in? Because Cloister specifically blocks plane shifting as well as teleportation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), meaning that even if Qarr could have plane shifted accurately enough not to need a teleport once he was on the material plane, he couldn't get in, since a low-level imp who can't even teleport someone else with him doesn't really strike me as the "epic magic sufficient to overcome epic spell" type, and his fly speed is not fast enough to zap just outside the city limits and book it.)

So yeah, of the various things about which the IFCC have lied or may have been lying, there's not really any evidence this was one of them.

[Cracklord]

If I follow you, then not really in this specific case, because that line was delivered to Qarr as a way of explaining why they needed him in their employ. What motives do they have to lie to him about why they need him? If they had more power to act than they were letting on, then they wouldn't need him, and they wouldn't have hired him, and thus they wouldn't have said this at all.

To put it more simply, they don't have to make a deal in good faith (obviously) - there's presumably nothing to stop them utilising some evocations (charm person and suggestion, for example) to give their target no choice in the matter (though the fact that they didn't suggests that at the very least they see that sort of thing as tacky, as well as counter to their aims of corrupting souls)(the whole free will thing), and there is (possibly) a certain amount of leeway in regards to fulfilling their side of any bargain (in regards to granting requests - if someone asks to be the richest man in the world, presumably they can kill someone and take his money rather then make the money materialise, although again that might end up doing their cause more harm than good.

There is also matters of summoning - just because they can't make the journey themselves except in specific cases, doesn't mean they can't get someone else to do the work for them by casting Gate or whatever (since it turns out we have more high-level clerics then we thought, should be easy enough to arrange.

If you want to get really twisty, you could wait for someone to propose a deal, arrive, hit them with an intelligence draining attack until they were no smarter then a cocker spaniel, propose a deal that has nothing to do with his intentions but serves your purpose directly (like say: give me physical might so that I may kill the paladin Soon Kim to prevent him from gaining control of a gate, in exchange for the souls of all my people (let's assume the random guy is a random King)), use a suggestion spell to make him accept, then sit back and watch the show.

[Kurald Galain]

There's a lesson to be learned here for me about not conceding the field too early.
Perhaps you should read what the spell does before jumping to conclusions. Oh look, it has a range of less than a kilometer, and then only if there's a convenient oak right there. For that matter, the Alarm spell has a range of one mile and isn't on the druid's list in the first place.
So yeah, as I said we do know druids don't have anything remotely like that on their spell list. That's the wizard's cup of tea. There is a big difference in what clerics, wizards, and druids can do, after all. Saying that "they're casters, anything goes" goes completely against how D&D works.


In addition to this, I'd point out one thing - when they appeared to V, V asked for the deal. Not just in vague "Oh, I'd do anything for a way out of this" terms, or metaphorical "I'd sell my soul for this sort of thing".
Yep. It's a fantasy world: how common do you think cults or evil wizards are that are willing to sell their soul for something?

That's basically their whole plan. First, send a bunch of imps into the world to attach themselves to ambitious people (Qarr has admitted as much). Second, if they are not all that competent (e.g. Kubota) then you give them some trivial help and wait for the next guy. Third, you'll eventually end up with someone powerful (i.e. Vaarsuvius) and then you strike. It may take a while, but hey, you're immortal anyway.

The funny thing is that we, as the readers, don't exactly know what Lee/Nero/Cedric are after (other than destructive unnecessary conflict), but so far it seems to be working pretty well.

[Ruck]

That's basically their whole plan. First, send a bunch of imps into the world to attach themselves to ambitious people (Qarr has admitted as much). Second, if they are not all that competent (e.g. Kubota) then you give them some trivial help and wait for the next guy. Third, you'll eventually end up with someone powerful (i.e. Vaarsuvius) and then you strike. It may take a while, but hey, you're immortal anyway.
That's not quite how it happened.


Qarr was assigned to Kubota by his "usual supervisor," who the IFCC are not. When Qarr put in Vaarsuvius' request to the home office, they responded instead because they "got special permission to intercede on this account." (#631-2)
The IFCC had been keeping an eye on Vaarsuvius after Sabine alerted them to what the Order were up to re: saving the Gates. (#380, confirmed in #637)
Presumably, they requested to intercede because of Vaarsuvius' potential value to them. Whatever their plan is, it involves the Gates, and two important elements of it were their projections of V challenging Xykon ("Our standard pre-Faustian psych report gave an 84% chance that...") and because the claims on V's soul could be used to interfere with the fight for the Gates, as we saw them do at Girard's Gate. (#668, #897)
They then hired Qarr after V made the deal. "We couldn't have done it without you." "We're going to need go-getters like you if we're ever going to make the IFCC's dreams a reality." (#637)

[5a Violista]

(Bringing it back on topic...)
I think the three fiends also foresaw the use of Familicide. They gave V the spirit of the person who invented that spell, and they easily predicted some of V's other actions so it seems reasonable that (given that spell) V was desperate enough and angry enough to use it.
So, they must've been able to predict that the spell would wipe out the Draketooth clan. Making sure that particular gate was pretty much unguarded played directly into their plan. I think this suggests if the Draketooths were still around, the gate would've not been destroyed (and thus would've either been successfully protected by the Draketooths and the Order of the Stick together, or captured by Xykon and Wrong-Eye).

[factotum]

I think the three fiends also foresaw the use of Familicide.

I don't think they were anything like that specific. In strip #640 they are clearly surprised after Familicide (they all three have round eyes in the seventh panel, which is pretty much the only time we see that). Note also that they were afraid V would get killed when he went to fight Xykon ("If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time"--#656). So, while they were reasonably sure V would be close enough to a Gate at some point for them to use him for something, they didn't know exactly what he would do or how far he would go in getting his revenge on the black dragon.

[Cracklord]

Perhaps you should read what the spell does before jumping to conclusions. Oh look, it has a range of less than a kilometer, and then only if there's a convenient oak right there. For that matter, the Alarm spell has a range of one mile and isn't on the druid's list in the first place.
So yeah, as I said we do know druids don't have anything remotely like that on their spell list. That's the wizard's cup of tea. There is a big difference in what clerics, wizards, and druids can do, after all. Saying that "they're casters, anything goes" goes completely against how D&D works.

You know what? Fair enough. I shouldn't assume anyone is correct, yourself included.

First, Druids and clerics have the benefit of knowing their entire spell-lists. Doesn't matter what supplement it was written in, unless there is a specific statement otherwise every Druid that meets the perquisites can cast every Druid spell. Which means there are a lot of options even before taking epic magic into account.

Furthermore, it's not unreasonable to expect that she might have a magic item we don't know about - she was an epic level adventurer, and according to class and level geekery all the order have equipment we missed hearing about, much less background characters.

Now as you pointed out, quite correctly, Treestride is the poor man's teleport, and while it saves on overland costs that is about it. However, she doesn't need to be instantaneous, as mentioned earlier in this thread her defences held back Xykon for eleven days, so she's got a bit of time to work with. If it takes more then a day (say, using wind walk or something to travel (Druid spell, right?)), or by transforming into a cheetah and loading up on buff-spells like longstride (Druids can do that, right?) in a CoD zilla manoeuvre so as not to blow her high level spell slots. That might well actually prove advantageous to her, as it gives her time to prepare her offensive by preparing the most effective spells, while the attacker squanders their own resources on her minions.

The alarm thing can be solved with 'Greater Scrying (yes, Druid spell at seventh level)' (Don't remember the exact effect of cloister off the top of my head, pretty sure it stops you looking in not looking out, but I'm sure if it's relevant you'll remind me), but even if that is the case, and she can't just leave the limits ever day she's away and check, eleven days is long enough for alternative messaging options (Druids could instruct a bird or whatever to fly over and tell her (just checking, Druids have access to animal messanger, right?).

And again, your argument for why she'd be absent in the first place is an ongoing relationship with a high level wizard, so this is presupposing the two never talk shop. Hell, given his reaction when he saw her fate, I'd say there's a better then even chance if her gate was in danger he'd show up with her (wizards can cast teleport, right?).

So really, it's a fairly trivial problem to solve.

[Cracklord]

I mean, this discussion has become a whole seperate fallacy: if Druids can't travel quickly, then she was irresponsible for leaving her gate unattended - and therefore 'undefended'. The two arguments are entirely unrelated, and proving one has nothing to do with proving the other.

That said, Druids are actually better at teleporting then wizards: no distance cap on 'transport via plants', you'll notice, unlike all the wizard variations of theme.

[martianmister]

Isn't it interesting that Scribble is doomed because female members were horrible at keeping secrets.

:yuk:

[dancrilis]

Isn't it interesting that biggest reason for Scribble's doom is failure of female members

:yuk:
Do you mean the diary?

[martianmister]

Do you mean the diary?

Diary and what Lirian done in SoD.

[Keltest]

Diary and what Lirian done in SoD.

As far as Lirian knew, the secret was out, and we don't know under what circumstances Serini protected her diary or how Xykon got a hold of it. This seems like looking for something to be upset about to me.

[dancrilis]

Diary and what Lirian done in SoD.

For Lirian as stated previously:

We don't know how the cosmology of the Oots world works, so lets stay with what we do know initially:
Dead evil souls can become possessions of fiends - and can still talk, as such to keep the information about the gates out of the hands of the lower planes requires keeping captives alive until they can be redeemed or imprisoned within the higher planes.

Now lets change items:
Lets say she killed Xykon and that Evil Souls can barter/fight for a place in the Abyss and Xykon returned a few days later as a Balor rather than a Lich - she had no reason to expect either and so should not be faulted for the Lich issue (although if he had people would likely be blaming her for killing a defenceless prisoner and thereby setting up the pathway for him to become a Balor).

To focus on the final complient about her: Talking about the other Gates.
This was a mistake.
But even with that knowledge Xykon spent decades researching the gates - without that he might simply have studied the gate she was defending leaving Dorukan to show up and see what had happened and gotten killed for his trouble early and possibly pointing Xykon directly to his gate much earlier. By Xykon leaving to explore on his own she might have avoided that conflict


Seperately Dorukan made the mistake of rushing out to attack due to his emotions likely making the fight much easier for Xykon.
Soon blabbed about the phylactery giving Xykon a firm indication to escape immediately - had Soon destroyed Xykon it is possible that Redcloak might have died in the explosion (and maybe but unlikely taken the phylactery with it).
Girard actually sent out false coordinates more likely to negatively impact heroic minded people than villians.
The Diary we actually don't know how it was guarded when Xykon initially found it - and we know that each gate had a notification tracker for the others, so likely some method of back tracking the signal to find them anyway.

So while yes I think Lirian was the worst defended:
I think faulting her for leaving Xykon alive (to return as a lich) or for speaking is unfair to her.

[Skull the Troll]

I agree that they would have been better off working together , but even so each gates defences were excellent, except maybe Lirians. Team evil has gotten incredibly lucky at every turn. Each time fate has interveened so that the good guys (with some evil nudging) had to help them win. In Dorukans it was specificly set up that way, but if not for a fallen paladin, Xykon and Redcloak would be dead at Azure City, and if not for the IFCC tempting V, the illusions probably would have held in the Pyramid. Imagine however if they had worked together with Dorukans runes needed to be touched by good at EVERY gate. A good party wouldnt have fallen for that trick twice.

As for which was best defended as the matters stand, I think it was the Azure City gate. Soon would have ended the whole threat right there if not for Miko breaking the gate. Fortuantly the help of the good guys has also always come with the gate being destroyed.

[dancrilis]

... Xykon and Redcloak would be dead at Azure City...

This is a commonly held belief seemingly - but it doesn't seem to stand up to analysis.

Soon had Xykon and Redcloak at his feet with Xykon's intention being to fly away.
Soon had Xykon and Redcloak at his feet with Xykon's flying away.
Soon would have gotten an attack of opportunity which either missed, failed to do sufficient damage, or he refused to take (paladins can be odd about attacking fleeing opponents).
Soon did not destroy Xykon with his attack.
Miko is irrelevant to that chain of events.
Rules wise anyway.

Narratively? as main villians it seems unlikely that the narrative would have had them die their regardless of what Miko did.

[Silverionmox]

Soon's defenses also were the only ones that would have gotten stronger over time. Every dead paladin would add to the last line of defense, which is a very solid failsafe. If there's anything that paladin's do viscerally and vicariously, it's taking oaths. He also wasn't particularly vulnerable against stealth or deceit either - he was completely capable of intervening in the throne room against either, along with the legion of spirits. Take into account that both Xykon and redcloak performed exceptionally well - clearing out a room full of paladins in minutes, and then overcoming a very unusual enemy with quick thinking. And then Soon still had the upper hand, eventually. The only thing that they achieved was overstretching the defense so much that an exceptionally unlikely event like Miko pushing the self-destruct button at the worst possible time could happen. At any other time he would have been able to deal with Miko at his leisure.

[Cazero]

Soon's defenses also were the only ones that would have gotten stronger over time. Every dead paladin would add to the last line of defense, which is a very solid failsafe.

Every paladin dying in the throne room, defending the gate. They're martyr ghosts. The only way that part can conceivably grow is if the paladin order becomes bigger constantly, wich isn't trivial for secret societies.

[Kurald Galain]

He also wasn't particularly vulnerable against stealth or deceit either - he was completely capable of intervening in the throne room against either, along with the legion of spirits.
Fair point. Yes, Soon would easily have stopped a small group sneaking in to destroy the gem.


Every paladin dying in the throne room, defending the gate. They're martyr ghosts. The only way that part can conceivably grow is if the paladin order becomes bigger constantly, wich isn't trivial for secret societies.
Why wouldn't a paladin be a martyr if he died in the line of duty somewhere else in the world?

[Cazero]

Why wouldn't a paladin be a martyr if he died in the line of duty somewhere else in the world?
Because he wouldn't have died as a martyr to the specific cause of the oath at the specific spot where he shall stand guard.
Also Soon might be the only "permanent" ghost of the lot, being more of an epic level ascended paladin than dead meat.

[ChillerInstinct]

He also wasn't particularly vulnerable against stealth or deceit either - he was completely capable of intervening in the throne room against either, along with the legion of spirits.

I'm not sure if I necessarily agree with that. I suspect there must have been a reason Soon didn't act when Miko killed Shojo (which, even if we assume was because Shojo was technically in violation of the law, nearly resulted in Miko hitting the Sapphire), or when Miko almost killed Hinjo, or when the ninja death squad tried to kill Hinjo a couple pages after his coronation.

I suspect, since his oath was only to protect the Gate itself, he could only act if there was a clear and active threat toward the Gate itself (Xykon knew he was looking for it, unlike any of the above 3 cases). Which, in my eyes, makes its placement even more damning. At least, like, use it to decorate a ceremonial pillar or something, man. :P

If I'm correct, then yes, Soon's defenses would have stopped a stealth ambush that knew what they were looking for, but there's so many accidentally ways that the Sapphire could have been destroyed that it's a miracle it never happened.

[Ruck]

This is a commonly held belief seemingly - but it doesn't seem to stand up to analysis.

Soon had Xykon and Redcloak at his feet with Xykon's intention being to fly away.
Soon had Xykon and Redcloak at his feet with Xykon's flying away.
Soon would have gotten an attack of opportunity which either missed, failed to do sufficient damage, or he refused to take (paladins can be odd about attacking fleeing opponents).
Soon did not destroy Xykon with his attack.
Miko is irrelevant to that chain of events.
Rules wise anyway.

I think you should read #462 again.

[dancrilis]

I think you should read #462 again.

What is your specific critique - the idea that the rules would give Soon a AOO?

[Keltest]

What is your specific critique - the idea that the rules would give Soon a AOO?

That soon has them on the ground and at his mercy until he is distracted by Miko being phenomenally stupid

[dancrilis]

That soon has them on the ground and at his mercy until he is distracted by Miko being phenomenally stupid
Or you saying that an Epic level pseudo-undead Paladin suffered a stun (or similiar) effect due to unmagical means which removed his ability to trigger an attack of opportunity? I think that is unsupported by the rules.
The element that Ruck quoted was a rules element - Soon being allowed his AOO had nothing to do with Miko.
As such however it occured whether Soon missed, failed to do sufficent damage or choose not to engage - he did not destroy Xykon in a single attack implying that Xykon could have escaped regardless of whether or not Miko showed up.

[Reathin]

Best might be a tie between Soon and Lirian. Soon's idea to build a small army of divinely empowered warriors who can't afford NOT to be very dedicated was sensible. Lirian had a wide variety of different protections from monsters/animals and, most critically, didn't stupidly shun the assistance of epic level allies in the form of Doruken. Could've used a roof, but her final defense was quite clever (if horribly invasive).

Worst is Girard's. Moron decided to make his primary line of defense the single easiest to beat school of magic and traps so weak that, without illusions backing them, non-rogues could avoid them trivially. Having his family help out was fairly sensible, but rather than embrace a variety of magical and non-magical solutions, it's pretty much all illusions, all the time. One True Seeing, or half the monster manual, and it's rendered pathetic.

I would have put Doruken's down there with Girard, but I'm pretty sure most of the issues were dealt with by Xykon, rather than the lowish level Order of the Stick. The seals that can't be bypassed save by Good creatures was a solid choice, so props there. Could have been better, could have been worse.

[Keltest]

Or you saying that an Epic level pseudo-undead Paladin suffered a stun (or similiar) effect due to unmagical means which removed his ability to trigger an attack of opportunity? I think that is unsupported by the rules.
The element that Ruck quoted was a rules element - Soon being allowed his AOO had nothing to do with Miko.
As such however it occured whether Soon missed, failed to do sufficent damage or choose not to engage - he did not destroy Xykon in a single attack implying that Xykon could have escaped regardless of whether or not Miko showed up.

They are fairly visibly prone or otherwise helpless, thus he could have Coup De Graced them with a full round action.

[dancrilis]

They are fairly visibly prone or otherwise helpless, thus he could have Coup De Graced them with a full round action.

To do so he would have had to have a full round action (2 really), Xykon moved to Redcloak (his action), Soon followed and attacked* (his action), Xykon moved away (potential AOO while they were off panel).
*the attack could have been part of Soon's round or it could have been the AOO for Xykon preparing to flee with Redcloak.

Also as a point of clarification Xykon is immune to being Coup De Graced (immune to critical hits).

[Ruck]

What is your specific critique - the idea that the rules would give Soon a AOO?


That soon has them on the ground and at his mercy until he is distracted by Miko being phenomenally stupid

Yes, this.



As such however it occured whether Soon missed, failed to do sufficent damage or choose not to engage - he did not destroy Xykon in a single attack implying that Xykon could have escaped regardless of whether or not Miko showed up.

He was standing on top of Xykon, readying an attack, when Miko announced her intention to destroy the Gate, which got him to turn and call out for her to stop.

"He did not destroy Xykon in a single attack" because he didn't attack. Miko is entirely relevant to the fact that he didn't attack.


To do so he would have had to have a full round action (2 really), Xykon moved to Redcloak (his action), Soon followed and attacked* (his action), Xykon moved away (potential AOO while they were off panel).

What panels are you talking about, exactly? In Panel 7, Soon uses Smite Evil on Xykon, which fizzles his spell attempt. Then in Panel 8, Xykon and Redcloak exchange some words. In Panel 9, Soon is readying another attack. Are you just assuming Xykon could have moved away before Soon brought his katana down?

[Cracklord]

Because he wouldn't have died as a martyr to the specific cause of the oath at the specific spot where he shall stand guard.
Also Soon might be the only "permanent" ghost of the lot, being more of an epic level ascended paladin than dead meat.

Making a lot of assumptions there.


That soon has them on the ground and at his mercy until he is distracted by Miko being phenomenally stupid

They were even saying heir last words.


Or you saying that an Epic level pseudo-undead Paladin suffered a stun (or similiar) effect due to unmagical means which removed his ability to trigger an attack of opportunity? I think that is unsupported by the rules.
The element that Ruck quoted was a rules element - Soon being allowed his AOO had nothing to do with Miko.
As such however it occured whether Soon missed, failed to do sufficent damage or choose not to engage - he did not destroy Xykon in a single attack implying that Xykon could have escaped regardless of whether or not Miko showed up.

Soon's oath, the very thing holding him in place, was to defend the gate. The gate was under threat. He turned to Miko, because Miko became the most direct threat to the gate, and thus his priority. When she disregarded him and destroyed it anyway, the thing holding him in existence was no more, and he began fading back to heaven. He didn't get an attack of opportunity, because he was in the process of vanishing.

Now I guess you could argue that he messed up by not swearing to defend all the gates and giving himself a backdoor to stick around, but he, for better or worse, gave his old comrades the benefit of the doubt.

[dancrilis]

"He did not destroy Xykon in a single attack" because he didn't attack. Miko is entirely relevant to the fact that he didn't attack.

So your contention is he didn't use his AOO - fine, than he didn't use his AOO. Why not? Xykon left his threatened area - whether he is facing him or looking around him is irrevalant to the rules.

<sigh> and I had this conversation a few years about with someone if only I could find the quotes.


What panels are you talking about, exactly? In Panel 7, Soon uses Smite Evil on Xykon, which fizzles his spell attempt. Then in Panel 8, Xykon and Redcloak exchange some words. In Panel 9, Soon is readying another attack.
Strip 462.
Panel 1, Soon Attacks and misses. (Soon's action)
Panel 2, talking is a free action. (Soon's action, same as 1)
Panel 3, nothing happened. (Soon's action, same as 1)
Panel 4, Xykon moves. (Xykon's action)
Panel 5, Soon attacks Xykon (Redcloak's spell fizzles). (Soon's and Redcloak's action)
Panel 6, Soon attacks Redcloak - and presumedly brings him to 0 hitpoints as he was unable to heal himself until he had some hobgoblin assistance.(Soon's action, likely same round as panel 5)
Panel 7, Xykon attempts to cast, Soon attacks (presumedly an AOO). (Xykon's action)
Panel 8, talking is a free action. (Xykon's action, same as 7)
Panel 9, No action - Soon is able Xykon and Redcloak within striking distance. (Xykon's action, same as 7)
Panel 10, We do not know what is happening with Soon, Xykon or Redcloak.
Panel 11, Xykon moves away taking Redcloak with him. Soon either has used his AOO, chooses not to use it. (Xykon's action, possible same as 7 using his move action)
Panel 12, We do not know what is happening with Soon, Xykon or Redcloak.


Are you just assuming Xykon could have moved away before Soon brought his katana down?
No.
How can you possibly be asking that?, I am specifically talking about AOOs, I have mentioned them repeatedly.
I am saying that assuming that Soon had an AOO left to target Xykon with he could have triggered it - and clearly it didn't destroy Xykon.
Otherwise if he had a turn before Xykon fled (i.e panel 10 was Soon's turn) he could have attacked - and and clearly it didn't destroy Xykon (and nor did his follow up AOO on Xykon's turn).

We know that the Giant operates on the following:


Q: Hey, in Panel X, the character is doing Y, but in Panel X+1, the character is doing Z. What happened?
A: Between panels, the character moved/cast a spell/had a spell cast on him/etc. There are limited panels in each strip, and I give priority to panels that tell jokes first, then advance the plot, and then, only if I have extra room, do I show transitional panels that are not strictly necessary. Use your imagination when it comes to exactly how it happened. Top

Showing Soon miss, fail to deal enough damage etc would likley be a 'transitional panels that are not strictly necessary'.

Now I am not sure I don't think this is what you are asking but ... are you asking me to prove that Xykon was not destoyed in the battle for Soon's gate?



He didn't get an attack of opportunity, because he was in the process of vanishing.

Panel 11 they fled, panel 12 she destroyed it.

[Ruck]

So your contention is he didn't use his AOO - fine, than he didn't use his AOO. Why not? Xykon left his threatened area - whether he is facing him or looking around him is irrevalant to the rules.

<sigh> and I had this conversation a few years about with someone if only I could find the quotes.

Strip 462.
Panel 1, Soon Attacks and misses. (Soon's action)
Panel 2, talking is a free action. (Soon's action, same as 1)
Panel 3, nothing happened. (Soon's action, same as 1)
Panel 4, Xykon moves. (Xykon's action)
Panel 5, Soon attacks Xykon (Redcloak's spell fizzles). (Soon's and Redcloak's action)
Panel 6, Soon attacks Redcloak - and presumedly brings him to 0 hitpoints as he was unable to heal himself until he had some hobgoblin assistance.(Soon's action, likely same round as panel 5)
Panel 7, Xykon attempts to cast, Soon attacks (presumedly an AOO). (Xykon's action)
Panel 8, talking is a free action. (Xykon's action, same as 7)
Panel 9, No action - Soon is able Xykon and Redcloak within striking distance. (Xykon's action, same as 7)
Panel 10, We do not know what is happening with Soon, Xykon or Redcloak.
Panel 11, Xykon moves away taking Redcloak with him. Soon either has used his AOO, chooses not to use it. (Xykon's action, possible same as 7 using his move action)
Panel 12, We do not know what is happening with Soon, Xykon or Redcloak.

No.
How can you possibly be asking that?, I am specifically talking about AOOs, I have mentioned them repeatedly.
I am saying that assuming that Soon had an AOO left to target Xykon with he could have triggered it - and clearly it didn't destroy Xykon.
Otherwise if he had a turn before Xykon fled (i.e panel 10 was Soon's turn) he could have attacked - and and clearly it didn't destroy Xykon (and nor did his follow up AOO on Xykon's turn).

We know that the Giant operates on the following:

Showing Soon miss, fail to deal enough damage etc would likley be a 'transitional panels that are not strictly necessary'.

Now I am not sure I don't think this is what you are asking but ... are you asking me to prove that Xykon was not destoyed in the battle for Soon's gate?


Panel 11 they fled, panel 12 she destroyed it.
So if I understand right-- you're saying somewhere between Panels 9 and 11 Soon attacked, but did not kill Xykon?

I think the simpler answer is that he raised his sword to do so, but when Miko announced her intent, stopping her from destroying the Gate became the higher priority.

[dancrilis]

So if I understand right-- you're saying somewhere between Panels 9 and 11 Soon attacked, but did not kill Xykon?


Not necessarally - if it is still Xykon's action from Panel 7 than Soon already used his AOO and so when Xykon fled he would not have been able to attack (assuming he does not have combat reflexes which we have no reason to assume he does).
On the other hand Xykon round from Panel 7 was finished than yes Soon would have gotten his attacks (and if he choose not to make them, missed, did insufficent damage) and his AOO for Xykon moving away.

When I started earlier today I had not noted that Xykon cast in Panel 7 so assumed that was Soon's action - but there are a number of rule interpretations that allow Xykon to live.



I think the simpler answer is that he raised his sword to do so, but when Miko announced her intent, stopping her from destroying the Gate became the higher priority.
He used a free action for that.
Now don't mistake me - plot beats rules in the OOTS universe, but you queried my rules interpretation earlier not the narrative comment I made.

The scene is rules consistant - meaning that Soon seemed to try to destroy Xykon and failed at the final hurdle.

He admits himself two pages later that he only 'might' have stopped Xykon permanently.

On Narrative:
Xykon was never going to be destroyed no matter what story element Miko was to play - had the Giant choose to have her somewhere else (for a redemption arc, or a falling to be a blackguard or whatever) Xykon would likely have fled (as he did) and Soon may have destroyed the gate prior to Xykon returning healed.

Narrative Causality was going to have Xykon survive that fight - the rules were not broken to allow that, as such on two fronts Xykon was not going to be destroyed both on the rules of DnD (which seem to have been effectively followed) and on the rules of the narrative (which would superceed them anyway).

[Dire Roc]

To reiterate some of what was mentioned earlier, the split in the Order of the Scribble seems to have been the biggest weakness, if they'd been able to collaborate effectively, they likely could have made a dungeon of TO quality.

I imagine gates protected by lengthy illusion filled corridors from Girard, mixed with Kraagor's giant beasts. Either halfway through the dungeon or near the final room start dropping the Guardian Virus and have the final layer hold an order of paladins sworn to ensure the gate doesn't open, the virus, Dorukan's sigil, and some sort of alert for the multiple epic casters of the order of the scribble, plus a way to summon the ghost martyrs... maybe even add in Girard's double bluff just to be sure. Unfortunately such was never meant to be, if nothing else, who wants to read a story about near unbeatable dungeons that everyone in the world agrees should stay that way?

[Cazero]

Making a lot of assumptions there.
Not as many assumptions as someone claiming any Saphirre guard paladin dying anywhere would become a ghost martyr. The comic explicitly shows the ghost rising as Soon is calling them by his side. That implies the requirement of Soon, wich apparently require a dire threat to the gate itself and proximity to it.

[Cracklord]

Not as many assumptions as someone claiming any Saphirre guard paladin dying anywhere would become a ghost martyr. The comic explicitly shows the ghost rising as Soon is calling them by his side. That implies the requirement of Soon, wich apparently require a dire threat to the gate itself and proximity to it.

Absolutely. However the ghosts could well be returning from heaven at Soon's call (presumably their destination, being lawful good types) as just as valid an interpretation as the ghosts shedding their mortal coil and remaining in the throneroom awaiting Soon's command. Possibly higher, as there was no sign of them until that moment, and if they had been in the throneroom the whole time they could have intervened earlier, and possibly saved a few of the Paladins Xykon massacred.

It depends on if it's Soon's will holding them, or their own devotion to their oaths. And based on Soon's argument, the latter does seem more likely.


He used a free action for that.
Now don't mistake me - plot beats rules in the OOTS universe, but you queried my rules interpretation earlier not the narrative comment I made.

The scene is rules consistant - meaning that Soon seemed to try to destroy Xykon and failed at the final hurdle.

He admits himself two pages later that he only 'might' have stopped Xykon permanently.

On Narrative:
Xykon was never going to be destroyed no matter what story element Miko was to play - had the Giant choose to have her somewhere else (for a redemption arc, or a falling to be a blackguard or whatever) Xykon would likely have fled (as he did) and Soon may have destroyed the gate prior to Xykon returning healed.

Narrative Causality was going to have Xykon survive that fight - the rules were not broken to allow that, as such on two fronts Xykon was not going to be destroyed both on the rules of DnD (which seem to have been effectively followed) and on the rules of the narrative (which would superceed them anyway).

It's not the only valid interpretation, however, by any means.

Soon brought the two of them down (full-round action). They are prone, combat over. Suddenly, Miko changes from nonthreatening to hostile (effectively). Soon is not ready for this development, and is caught flat-footed. The arrival of an addition to the fray justifies a surprise round. Xykon and Redcloak are unaffected, as they already identified Miko as hostile, and so the two of them take advantage of this to look out for number one and cheese it. Soon Kim is now concentrating on the most immediate threat to the gate, misses out on his attack of opportunity (he's flanked and flat-footed, so he wouldn't get one anyway) and either attempts to reason with her (diplomacy check), or didn't roll well on initiative and can only watch and talk as a free action (no result). Miko destroys the gate.

No attack of opportunity.

Also, the assumption that Soon failed because he needed more then another single attack to kill Xykon, as well as the insistence that none of the defenses matter because plot are both very defensible points of view, but incredibly unhelpful for the purposes of the discussion. By that reasoning, Kraagor's is the worst defended, as for plot reasons it's the only one that Xykon may get control of (if the whole planet in the Rift thing is relevant to the story), and Lirian's is the best (it was impossible for him to capture it, rather then destroy it, because the PC's hadn't been introduced yet, and this isn't a post-apocalypse story). There's such a thing as being too enslaved to genre conventions.

[Aeson]

Not as many assumptions as someone claiming any Saphirre guard paladin dying anywhere would become a ghost martyr. The comic explicitly shows the ghost rising as Soon is calling them by his side. That implies the requirement of Soon, wich apparently require a dire threat to the gate itself and proximity to it.
For what it's worth: There are by my count 41 members of the Sapphire Guard (including O'Chul) shown to be in the throne room in the final panel of 447 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html). I count 38 dead members of the Sapphire Guard, one member of the Sapphire Guard killing herself, and O'Chul visible in the final panel of 448 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), and 39 or 40 dead members of the Sapphire Guard and O'Chul visible in panel five of 461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), as well as three ghosts other than Soon who do not match any of the visible dead members of the Sapphire Guard (and one ghost who does match one of the dead paladins). In the penultimate panel of 449 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html), I see at least 45 ghosts who have answered Soon's call, several of whom do not appear to be among the living members of the Sapphire Guard seen in 447 or the dead members of the Sapphire Guard seen in 448 or 461, and one of the ghosts in 461 does not appear to be among either the members of the Sapphire Guard who died in Xykon's attack on the throne room or among the ghosts visible behind Soon in the penultimate panel of 449.

It is not be conclusive evidence that members of the Sapphire Guard who died anywhere would become ghost-martyrs, but it is circumstantial evidence that I would regard as rather suggestive of the oaths of the members of the Sapphire Guard binding them to the gate's defense after they die regardless of where or when they died.

Soon's words also suggest that fallen members of the Sapphire Guard are bound to the gate's defense regardless of where or when they died - their duty is not abrogated by death, and the primary duty of a member of the Sapphire Guard is to defend the gate.

[Cazero]

It is not be conclusive evidence that members of the Sapphire Guard who died anywhere would become ghost-martyrs, but it is circumstantial evidence that I would regard as rather suggestive of the oaths of the members of the Sapphire Guard binding them to the gate's defense after they die regardless of where or when they died.

I'm pulling circumstancial evidence of the opposite. Those three-five dead paladins could have come from positions on the outer wall or simply been off panel until then. The obvious absence of the dozens (if not hundreds) of paladin who died during the previous sixty years tends to indicate they couldn't answer the call.

[dancrilis]

It's not the only valid interpretation, however, by any means.
Of course - there are many ways to interpret the scene, when I got into this discussion back in 2014 I said 'I have always been dubious about whether Xykon was close to permanent death' which is a fairer statement than my above one relating to analysis as it could be analysed in many different ways.


I'm pulling circumstancial evidence of the opposite. Those three-five dead paladins could have come from positions on the outer wall or simply been off panel until then. The obvious absence of the dozens (if not hundreds) of paladin who died during the previous sixty years tends to indicate they couldn't answer the call.

I think it could go either way - the seen with Soon appearing seems to be presented with the idea that there are lots of paladins, not that those we see are the entire amount of them (just like the doors in 1039).
Also note that Xykon can use an area affect spell to wipe out half* of them each time (taking incorporeal taken into account).
* assuming they are mostly fairly low level.

One can than assume therefore that there were hundreds initally and that only the lucky/med-high level were remaining when Redcloak entered.

I would be in the that thinks that all the deceased members of the Sapphire Guard who retained their honor in death attended - but that is an assumption based on Xykon's stated spell use rather than absolute fact.

[Kish]

"The Sapphire Guard--which Soon founded at most sixty-six years ago--was large enough that dozens or hundreds of members died since its founding" is, unless I am forgetting something that gives an actual number, a fairly massive assumption on its own and, thus, should not be being used as supporting evidence as though it were established.

[dancrilis]

"The Sapphire Guard--which Soon founded at most sixty-six years ago--was large enough that dozens or hundreds of members died since its founding" is, unless I am forgetting something that gives an actual number, a fairly massive assumption on its own and, thus, should not be being used as supporting evidence as though it were established.

My SOD book is a country away so I will not check, but were there less than a dozen Sapphire Guard conduction an extermination campaign against Redcloaks village?

Also humans have an low age limit which would imply that some would have died of old age - as such assuming static* numbers there would have been ar reasonable amount dead within 66 years.

*static allowing a for some variance and also allowing population growth with population inflation (and deflation) - in this case.

[DaggerPen]

My SOD book is a country away so I will not check, but were there less than a dozen Sapphire Guard conduction an extermination campaign against Redcloaks village?

Also humans have an low age limit which would imply that some would have died of old age - as such assuming static* numbers there would have been ar reasonable amount dead within 66 years.

*static allowing a for some variance and also allowing population growth with population inflation (and deflation) - in this case.

Fortunately, mine is literally right by my side- I count sixteen in this panel, and at least two who weren't in that panel, so I'd guess roundabouts 20 in here. We know from Word of Rich that at least some of these paladins Fell from this, though, and I don't know how many of them would have reobtained their status in order to potentially join the Ghost Martyrs. We also did see seven of them die on-panel, though given that some of them did die in the process of committing an Evil deed, I'm not sure how many of them would have gone on to be Ghost Martyrs.

If we're taking this as representative of their numbers, however, I'd say this seemed to be a reasonably large force and was about twenty people. From this number, I imagine a reasonable amount of the paladins would have died during those 66 years, but not enough that I think it's a given that those who die outside of the throne room don't become Ghost Martyrs due to the lack of obvious previously-martyred Ghost Martyrs we saw on-panel.

[Aeson]

If we're looking to establish lower bounds on the size of the Sapphire Guard, then I would say that 413 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) establishes that there are at least 100 members of the Sapphire Guard. O'Chul tells Hinjo that there are at least 100 paladins in the city who do not appear to have been included among the approximately 9000 soldiers that the Azure City general says are available to defend the city, Hinjo tells O'Chul that O'Chul knows where the more experienced members of this group should go, O'Chul replies to Hinjo that "we will gladly lay down our lives in defense of the tower," and we know that O'Chul ends up in the throne room. This would seem to indicate that these 100 or more paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard who were present in Azure City at the time of the attack.

Assuming that the 41 people present in the throne room when Xykon arrives are all of the more experienced members of the Sapphire Guard who were present in the city, that leaves 59 "newbies" who were behind the walls to protect civilians from any hobgoblins or zombies. "Newbies" are presumably low-level members of the Sapphire Guard and are thus unlikely to have survived as ghosts from the time the ghosts arise in 449 to the time that Redcloak arrives at the throne room in 459, and while we do not know exactly how long that is we do know that it is time enough for Xykon to be running out of spells above fifth level by the time Redcloak arrives despite an epic-level sorcerer having at least 24 spell slots above fifth level (granted, some of those may have been expended on buffs or the bouncy ball of insanity).

[Ruck]

If we're looking to establish lower bounds on the size of the Sapphire Guard, then I would say that 413 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html) establishes that there are at least 100 members of the Sapphire Guard. O'Chul tells Hinjo that there are at least 100 paladins in the city who do not appear to have been included among the approximately 9000 soldiers that the Azure City general says are available to defend the city, Hinjo tells O'Chul that O'Chul knows where the more experienced members of this group should go, O'Chul replies to Hinjo that "we will gladly lay down our lives in defense of the tower," and we know that O'Chul ends up in the throne room. This would seem to indicate that these 100 or more paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard who were present in Azure City at the time of the attack.

Assuming that the 41 people present in the throne room when Xykon arrives are all of the more experienced members of the Sapphire Guard who were present in the city, that leaves 59 "newbies" who were behind the walls to protect civilians from any hobgoblins or zombies. "Newbies" are presumably low-level members of the Sapphire Guard and are thus unlikely to have survived as ghosts from the time the ghosts arise in 449 to the time that Redcloak arrives at the throne room in 459, and while we do not know exactly how long that is we do know that it is time enough for Xykon to be running out of spells above fifth level by the time Redcloak arrives despite an epic-level sorcerer having at least 24 spell slots above fifth level (granted, some of those may have been expended on buffs or the bouncy ball of insanity).
Not all Paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard, though. The ones who were stationed among the regular army probably were not.

[factotum]

(granted, some of those may have been expended on buffs or the bouncy ball of insanity).

A Symbol of Insanity basically lasts forever once cast, so there's no reason for Xykon to have done that on the day of the battle, especially since it has a 10-minute casting time. More likely he prepared the ball the night before.

[Aeson]

Not all Paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard, though. The ones who were stationed among the regular army probably were not.
If either O'Chul or Hinjo had given any indication of making a distinction between subgroups of paladins aside from "newbies" and "experienced," I might be inclined to agree that not all of the 100 or so paladins mentioned are members of the Sapphire Guard. If O'Chul did not word his statements in a way which implies that he counted himself as a member of the same group as the paladins under discussion, I might be inclined to agree that not all of the 100 or so paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard. If O'Chul had any clear reason to know that there are 100 or so paladins in the city when said paladins are not members of the Sapphire Guard and also not clearly members of the Azure City military, I might be inclined to agree that not all of the 100 or so paladins are members of the Sapphire Guard.

However, from what we see in the comic, O'Chul may as well be a glorified door warden guarding his lord's throne room outside of his role within the Sapphire Guard - not exactly the sort of person you'd expect to know of the presence of 100 or so paladins who aren't really affiliated with him.


A Symbol of Insanity basically lasts forever once cast, so there's no reason for Xykon to have done that on the day of the battle, especially since it has a 10-minute casting time. More likely he prepared the ball the night before.
Yes, but on the other hand we don't know it was, unless there's something in the comic that I don't recall or unless there's something in the print edition that isn't available online, and if I hadn't allowed for the possibility that Xykon might have expended a spell on the bouncy ball of insanity, someone else probably would have "corrected" me and told me that we couldn't know that Xykon really did have all his spell slots above fifth level available because Symbol of Insanity is an eighth level spell that he might have cast between the last time he recovered his spell slots and his arrival in the throne room, and he might have buffed himself up with one or more high-level spells, and whatever other objections might be posed to the idea that Xykon had all his spell slots above fifth level available when he arrived at the throne room.

Also, I allowed for the possibility that the spell was cast since the last time Xykon recovered his spell slots, I didn't say that the spell was cast since the last time Xykon recovered spell slots.

[Daefos]

Few things; Lirian's a Druid they don't know anything about Undead (weird since most fluff points to them hating Undead for being the antithesis of the natural order) and we don't know whether Dorukan identified Xykon as a Lich or not.

This is a bit old, but I'd just like to point out that as a Divine spellcaster with the Epic Spellcasting feat, Lirian has to have had at least 24 ranks in Knowledge (Religion), which governs a character's knowledge of the undead. Nothing about Lirian's dialogue suggests that she doesn't know perfectly well what a lich is (though her attempted use of the Poison spell is spell is rather unforgivable in that context).

As to whether or not Soon could have taken a swing at Xykon as he fled, I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Withdraw action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw)

[Kish]

This is a bit old, but I'd just like to point out that as a Divine spellcaster with the Epic Spellcasting feat, Lirian has to have had at least 24 ranks in Knowledge (Religion)

...or Knowledge (Nature), which, unlike Knowledge (Religion), is a class skill for her. You should reread the Epic Level Handbook.

[Daefos]

...or Knowledge (Nature), which, unlike Knowledge (Religion), is a class skill for her. You should reread the Epic Level Handbook.

Hmm. Yes. Well.

...I'll just show myself out.

[Kurald Galain]

As to whether or not Soon could have taken a swing at Xykon as he fled, I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the Withdraw action. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#withdraw)

Xykon was prone at the time. He'd have to get up before he can move away, and getting up provokes.

[Cracklord]

Xykon was prone at the time. He'd have to get up before he can move away, and getting up provokes.

You need to be standing to use a flight (magical) effect? Are you sure? I don't have my books with me so I can't check myself.

Also, there may be other factors in play, such as he was flat-footed by Miko's arrival and attack of the gate, and so couldn't make such an attack.

Of course, that defeats the need of requiring withdraw action.

[Kurald Galain]

You need to be standing to use a flight (magical) effect?
You can't move when you're lying on the floor (other than by crawling or standing up). Flying is not an exception to that.

For that matter, picking up something (or someone) also provokes an attack of opportunity, and is a move action, meaning you can't combine it with withdrawing in the same turn.


Also, there may be other factors in play, such as he was flat-footed by Miko's arrival and attack of the gate, and so couldn't make such an attack.
Well, yes. The point of the scene is that Xykon could flee because Miko distracted Soon; Soon literally says so. The point is not that there was some loophole in the rules that allowed Xykon to get away regardless of what Soon was doing.

[Voidhawk]

Each guardian choose two different protections to defend their gate, one around the area and one on the gate itself. Each gate fell when the same forces were turned against them.

Lirian's Gate was first defended by Nature, the primal power beneath everything. It fell to a forest fire, a raw unleashed natural process, for nature is never truly on anyone's side and to think otherwise is a grave mistake.
The final defence was a virus that attacked casters. The gate fell to a caster who was prepared to unchain themselves from everything natural to achieve victory.
Durokan's Gate was first defended by his Magic, since he believed no force in the world is stronger than wizardry. It was conquered by stronger magic, as Xykon's Hammer crushed his Watch.
The final defence was the Sigil that could only be activated by the Pure of Heart, as no good person would ever choose to endanger the world. It was destroyed by Elan: Durokan had overestimated the rationality of many champions of good.

Soon's Gate was first defended by Azure City, since a stable social order would always protect itself. It fell to an opposed social order, an organised army of goblinoids.
The final defence was the Ghost Paladins of the Sapphire Guard, since Soon believed only the honor of a paladin was unbreakable. But the Falling rules exist for a reason: Miko's honor was broken and the gate destroyed.

Girrard's Gate was first protected by being hidden. But the one person he shared the location with (Serrini) was one too many: information wants to spread, and Xykon acquired her diary.
The final defence was his family, because he thought (like Ian) that only the bonds of blood could be relied on. They fell to V casting Familicide while fighting for his/her own family, and the last remains fell to battle with a party led by Elan's own father. Blood does not ensure loyalty, and everyone having something in common can be a weakness rather than a strength.

Kraggor's gate we don't know much about yet. It seems to have been built as unsubtly as possible: "Here are the toughest challenges in the MM, Come At Me Bro". Uniquely among the gates it appears to have no sentient defenders, making it immune to some of the issues the other defences had. But we must remember that it was built by a Halfling, not a Dwarf, and one of the only members of the Scribble who valued co-operation. I anticipate it being the most well defended of all, and to require more than just violence to conquer.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'd go with Girard's. The level of arcane power that was required to make this one easy would have made getting any other gate an equally trivial task. It was well hidden, it had good traps, it had good defenders, multiple layers of deception... And none of it was outright stupid or underpowered, like the treents catching on fire (seriously).

[factotum]

I'd go with Girard's. The level of arcane power that was required to make this one easy would have made getting any other gate an equally trivial task.

Except Lirian's gate was defended by a virus that removed the spellcasting ability from anybody living who got near it. Team Evil only got round that by one of them having a god-forged artifact and the other being willing to become an undead abomination, neither of which are ten a penny in Stickworld.

[Keltest]

Except Lirian's gate was defended by a virus that removed the spellcasting ability from anybody living who got near it. Team Evil only got round that by one of them having a god-forged artifact and the other being willing to become an undead abomination, neither of which are ten a penny in Stickworld.

Also, the illusion school is by far the easiest to circumnavigate, and without the illusions, even non-rogue members of the Order and Guild could trap spot.

[Goblin_Priest]

Except Lirian's gate was defended by a virus that removed the spellcasting ability from anybody living who got near it. Team Evil only got round that by one of them having a god-forged artifact and the other being willing to become an undead abomination, neither of which are ten a penny in Stickworld.

A virus that only affects living targets (thus excluding the most evil entities like undead and outsiders) that aren't otherwise immune to disease... And that takes time to kick in. With greater preparation (and Redcloak being higher level), they probably could have done much better there.

Girard's gate didn't just have illusions, it had a large number of people, namely potent casters, to defend it.

[dancrilis]

A virus that only affects living targets (thus excluding the most evil entities like ... outsiders) that aren't otherwise immune to disease
Outsiders are not immune to disease.

[Kish]

And Lirian's gate had treants, werebears, unlike Girard's it had a present and fighting epic-level character...

Also, Girard's big defense spell was the Microcosm, which was equally ineffective against the undead. So yeah. "Girard's gate was strongest and Lirian's was weakest because numerous powerful defenders are good and a spell which the undead are immune to is bad" would be a masterpiece of irony, if it was meant as irony. It makes sense to say "well, we didn't know how powerful the Draketooths would have been had they actually been defending their Gate, so I'm putting them down as 'unknown'"; it makes no sense to say "the Draketooths weren't around to defend their gate so I'm arbitrarily declaring they would have done it better than anyone else, despite having the only Gate we've seen so far that wasn't defended by a still-active epic Order of the Scribble member."

[woweedd]

And Lirian's gate had treants, werebears, unlike Girard's it had a present and fighting epic-level character...

Also, Girard's big defense spell was the Microcosm, which was equally ineffective against the undead. So yeah. "Girard's gate was strongest and Lirian's was weakest because numerous powerful defenders are good and a spell which the undead are immune to is bad" would be a masterpiece of irony, if it was meant as irony. It makes sense to say "well, we didn't know how powerful the Draketooths would have been had they actually been defending their Gate, so I'm putting them down as 'unknown'"; it makes no sense to say "the Draketooths weren't around to defend their gate so I'm arbitrarily declaring they would have done it better than anyone else, despite having the only Gate we've seen so far that wasn't defended by a still-active epic Order of the Scribble member."
(Emphasis mine.)
This is true. Plus, for all we know, they had a lot more illusions then the Microcosm lined up but those happened to have a more limited duration and, thusly, ran out long before The Order got there.

[Ruck]

(Emphasis mine.)
This is true. Plus, for all we know, they had a lot more illusions then the Microcosm lined up but those happened to have a more limited duration and, thusly, ran out long before The Order got there.

We don't have to speculate; they kept a schedule. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) However, the Microcosm was the really powerful Final Illusion.

[factotum]

We don't have to speculate; they kept a schedule. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) However, the Microcosm was the really powerful Final Illusion.

An illusion which the undead are immune to (so Xykon would go past it like it wasn't there, just like Malack did) and which the mid-level Order were able to break through their own willpower. Doesn't seem like the be-all and end-all of defences to me.

[woweedd]

An illusion which the undead are immune to (so Xykon would go past it like it wasn't there, just like Malack did) and which the mid-level Order were able to break through their own willpower. Doesn't seem like the be-all and end-all of defences to me.
Firstly, it seems like you need, for lack of a better word, RP skills to get out of ti more then any stat. I mean, of the Order members in that trap, only Roy could be expected to have even a decent Will save and Elan, who probably has the second-worst one in the Order, was the one who broke it. You need character development to break it, not stats. Secondly, there were hundreds of Draketooths in the pyramid, quite a few of them spellcasters. They could probably overwhelm most Undead or Spellcasters who can make same by sheer numbers.

[Kish]

An illusion which the undead are immune to (so Xykon would go past it like it wasn't there, just like Malack did) and which the mid-level Order were able to break through their own willpower. Doesn't seem like the be-all and end-all of defences to me.
Rich said that Girard didn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat, unlike both Lirian and Dorukan. Thus, the most powerful spell there was ninth level, not epic; it's not surprising or unintentional that it looks significantly weaker than Cloister or the Guardian Virus or Dorukan's rune on the gate, and it's not a hint that Girard set up something more powerful.

[Keltest]

Rich said that Girard didn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat, unlike both Lirian and Dorukan. Thus, the most powerful spell there was ninth level, not epic; it's not surprising or unintentional that it looks significantly weaker than Cloister or the Guardian Virus or Dorukan's rune on the gate, and it's not a hint that Girard set up something more powerful.

On top of that, its not like it has to stop them indefinitely, just long enough for the Draketeeth to come out and stab the people caught in it. Again, Xykon specifically would make that plan all kinds of useless, but that's a bit of a running theme with Gerard's defenses.

[woweedd]

On top of that, its not like it has to stop them indefinitely, just long enough for the Draketeeth to come out and stab the people caught in it. Again, Xykon specifically would make that plan all kinds of useless, but that's a bit of a running theme with All of the Scribbler's defenses.
(Bolded part mine.)
I know this is obnoxious but I just had to:smallbiggrin: The main theme of the defenses, as Voidhawk so eloquently summarized (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20960227&postcount=181) earlier, is that all the Scribblers focused way too much on one or two themes and did'nt think of any contingency mesures if those defenses failed or were turned aganist them, a problem that would have been most likely easy to account for had they decided to keep working together after Kraggor's death which would have allowed them to pool their colletive power and thus keep all holes sealed up. This ties into something, namely something that, as i've said before, is arguably the most major "message" that Order of The Stick has: "Cooperation is Good and stubbornly trying to go it alone will lead to stupid mistakes more often then not." You can see this elsewhere too. Stuff like V's whole Soul Splice incident going badly because V firstly deliberately isolated themself from the others, allowing the Black Dragon to locate them and The Fiends to make an offer and secondly tried to go after Xykon solo and got force-fed Humble Pie at record speeds and also stuff like how Belkar's character development starts once he finally decides to start acting like a team player. One of the most major themes of Order of The Stick is that Cooperation is generally a good thing and pretending that you don't need other people will just lead to screwing up.

[Mightymosy]

Rich said that Girard didn't have the Epic Spellcasting feat, unlike both Lirian and Dorukan. Thus, the most powerful spell there was ninth level, not epic; it's not surprising or unintentional that it looks significantly weaker than Cloister or the Guardian Virus or Dorukan's rune on the gate, and it's not a hint that Girard set up something more powerful.

Plus, to people unfamiliar with D&D, it doesn't even necessarily seem less powerful.
I mean, one spell basically blocks radar, X-Ray and teleport, while the other keeps anyone close to it captive in a illusion they may never identify as such.

If it wasn't for the forum, I couldn't tell whether Lirian, Dorukan or Girard had a higher wizard level.

[Mightymosy]

I'd go with Girard's. The level of arcane power that was required to make this one easy would have made getting any other gate an equally trivial task. It was well hidden, it had good traps, it had good defenders, multiple layers of deception... And none of it was outright stupid or underpowered, like the treents catching on fire (seriously).

It depends on how you define the priorities:
1. Keep gate intact.
2. Stop anyone from using it for evil purposes.
-> Lirian's gate defence sucks

Or
1. Stop anyone from using the gate for evil purposes.
2. Keep gate intact.
-> Lirian's gate is arguably the best defended thus far. Because, apart from fighting your way through its defenders and the guardian virus, you need a way to keep the tree people in place in a way so that the gate doesn't break (wood to stone, perhaps? I'm guessing such a spell exsists?).

[Kantaki]

If it wasn't for the forum, I couldn't tell whether Lirian, Dorukan or Girard had a higher wizard level.

Dorukan. Definitely Dorukan.:smalltongue: Lirian was a druid and Girard a ranger/sorcerer.

[xroads]

From worst to best...


Lirian's Gate: Lirian's Gate had a nice secret weapon. However in the end the defenses relied too much on a single person (Lirian). Plus it was vunerable to a common attack (fire).

Durokan's Gate: Same issue of being overly reliant on a single person (Durokan). However, it did manage to slow Xykon down for months after Durokan's death. So I think this makes it marginally better then Lirian's Gate.

Girard's Gate: If not for the interference of an epic level spell (Familicide), I suspect that Girard's Gate defenses would of been a much tougher nut to crack. True, Xykon himself would of been immune to many of the illusions. But RC would not. And Team Evil would of had a clan of caster's actively harassing them.

Soon's Gate: It took an army to take the gate. And even when that army was winning, Xykon & RC were almost slain by paladin ghosts. If they had died, I suspect the hobgoblin army would have marked off the throne room as being haunted and left the gate alone for years.


As for Kragor's Gate, I suspect that once all is said and done, it will rank high. Possibly even above Soon's gate. But only time will tell.

[justalurker]

I think other people have covered the topic well, I'd just like to add my bit:

1. If you are going by protecting from capture, then Lirian's gate was brilliantly defended. By its nature it would be incredibly hard to capture without destroying. In this way, it was the only one immune to Xykon's attack.

2. Even with the strong wards, Dorukan had significant problems where he had to do everything. If preventing capture was important enough to include an explosion room, why was there nothing that could activate it if he died?

3. People are forgetting just how many layers of misdirection Girard had. They extended far past illusions. First was the hidden location (he should have hidden it from all the members of the guild, so there's that). Next there's the multiple pyramids. Then there's the pillar in the final room. Most importantly are the many identical, ambush prone pathways. These are all "illusions" that are immune to every type of magic. Its location even made flying difficult.

Fighting the guerrilla Draketooth clan under these conditions would be murderous. Even with trueseeing, illusionists can cast other spells besides illusion. Imagine fighting constant surprise evocations and conjurations. They obviously had a lot of firepower, especially since they were probably sorcerers with their draconic heritage. The pyramid and defenders could have ground almost any attacker down. (Hell, the Order of the Stick almost defeated an high-mid / low epic team with a 50gp smoke arrow).

Finally, I'd like to point out that there was no proof the dedication of the Draketooths was any less than the Paladins. Both extended beyond death.

4. Soon's protections had significant problems that we didn't see because the way Xykon attacked it. There were two in particular:

Scry and Die: Dorukan and Girard both had protections against scry and die (Dorukan's was better). The paladins were frequently sent against external foes. Imagine the throne room without the paladin backup. It would just be Soon and the protection already there. Xykon and Redcloak may have been able to do that alone had they chosen a different means of attack.

Politics: Soon's Gate had another flaw that no other Gate had, politics. A person who did not have to be devoted to its protection was right next to it, every single day. What if Kubota became king? What if the populace of the city were turned against the Paladins? No other Gate was weak in this way. We just don't see that because of the type of villain Xykon is.

[Keltest]

Politics: Soon's Gate had another flaw that no other Gate had, politics. A person who did not have to be devoted to its protection was right next to it, every single day. What if Kubota became king? What if the populace of the city were turned against the Paladins? No other Gate was weak in this way. We just don't see that because of the type of villain Xykon is.

What if they did? They don't know about the gate, and the Ghost-Martyrs are still defending it even if there aren't going to be any new ones. Presumably they aren't going to tear apart the castle out of spite, since that's, you know, hard, and theyre still going to defend the city should it come under attack.

[PapaQuackers]

I'd say that I would agree with Draketooth's being the most potently defended.

[Ruck]

4. Soon's protections had significant problems that we didn't see because the way Xykon attacked it. There were two in particular:

Scry and Die: Dorukan and Girard both had protections against scry and die (Dorukan's was better). The paladins were frequently sent against external foes. Imagine the throne room without the paladin backup. It would just be Soon and the protection already there. Xykon and Redcloak may have been able to do that alone had they chosen a different means of attack.

Politics: Soon's Gate had another flaw that no other Gate had, politics. A person who did not have to be devoted to its protection was right next to it, every single day. What if Kubota became king? What if the populace of the city were turned against the Paladins? No other Gate was weak in this way. We just don't see that because of the type of villain Xykon is.

The Azure City throne room was warded against scrying somehow, so scry-and-die wouldn't have been possible without Epic magic (which is also true of Dorukan's dungeon). Not all paladins were members of the Sapphire Guard; there is no reason to assume large numbers of the Sapphire Guard would have been dispatched from Azure City at one time.

The Sapphire Guard was a separate post from the ruler of Azure City; they had just been held by the same person ever since the former was created. Were Kubota or another non-SG member to become Lord of the City, I imagine the SG would select its own leader (though explaining to the Lord of the City why Paladins were always hanging around the throne room might have been another matter).

[StLordeth]

I just want to say, this community is fantastic. Every thread is pages and pages of arguments but it rarely gets juvenile with insults. Bravo.

I read through a couple of pages since I last posted and I'm shocked by the dismissal of Dorukan's defences. It's not like Xykon just beat him in a duel and took his gate, he tricked him into coming out because he had the soul of Lirian no? Xykon was stationed out of the mountain for a while, then stayed months afterwards trying to figure it out.

To me Dorukan's was the easily the best defended. I think Girard's is being highly overrated because of "What could have been" but honestly, I think Xykon would have tore through those illusionists.

[factotum]

2. Even with the strong wards, Dorukan had significant problems where he had to do everything. If preventing capture was important enough to include an explosion room, why was there nothing that could activate it if he died?


Dorukan's defences actually held just fine--even after he was personally defeated and Xykon occupied his Dungeon, he couldn't actually access the Gate, and the anti-evil charms on it were so powerful they destroyed him in one shot. Dorukan probably didn't set the rune to auto-explode because he didn't believe he could be defeated in the first place, such was his belief in his personal arcane power. We don't know what his plan (if any) for a successor would be when he died a natural death, though.

[Calthropstu]

Hi all first time poster, long term reader.

I have to say the paladins had their gate best defended from those we have seen.

But I think Kraagor's/Serinis's may very well top it. Serini was a rogue, honoring Kraagor with the gate's defenses.

With all of these passages greatly defended, all but one ending in a dead end... the illusionist's pillar ploy would be BRILLIANT here.

Even more possible... ALL of the passages could be false. Collapse the real one, put the nastiest monster of all in the chamber with no way into it with a collosal null magic field, then bluff all the other ones. Or a rotating tunnel seeminly sending people into random dead ends. This could very well be ridiculously impossible. Even for zykon

[Calthropstu]

In fact, if I were serini, there is only one monster I would put guarding it inside of a null magic field with the gate inside it.

The nigh unkillable tarrasque equipped with a ring of counterspells against wish if the field goes down.

[ZerglingOne]

Pretty sure Dorukan's takes the cake for best defended.

They sat on top of the thing for months knowing its exact location and an epic, or at least very high level lich was instantly destroyed upon touching it.

The only reason it fell was because a gullible, lovable idiot hit its only real flaw.

Idiocy has actually been the fall of all 4 gates so far. Familicide was a stupid move to use, redcloak's flame strike as well, miko destroying the sapphire, and elan touching the self destruct rune. Makes me wonder what idiocy will take down kraagor's.

[danielxcutter]

Here's my two-cents-from-a-brand-new-member-but-decently-long-time-fan: I think that while it would be physically impossible to make a single gate with all five forms of defense, all of them(except maybe Kraagor's Tomb) could really have benefited from help from the others;

-Aside from the obvious fact that Lirian should have prepared something like Protection from Fire or something, who said that epic-level spellcasters can't have epic-level fighters/barbarians as party members? Aside of liches, which are VERY rare in the Oots world, the main weakness of the spell-sapping-sickness was that it's useless against those who have no magic in the first place. Maybe psions can also No Sell it, but those are rare too. However, most fighters and barbarians lack the ability to break out of a Forcecage, something Dorukan probably could use.

-To be honest, Dorukan only lost that easily because of Xykon pissed him off and he wasn't thinking straight. However, his speciality was Conjuration; mixing that up with the Draketooths's illusion spells would mean a bigger headache for anyone attacking. After all, you can't be sure if the army that just popped out of nowhere behind you is real or not.

-Soon's gate fell due to a fallen paladin; but the real reason was that the gem sealing it was just that - a gem. Sure, it had powerful guards, but if it had been hidden or protected by magic then it would been safer.

-The Draketooth family being wiped out by tue Familicide spell came out of nowhere; that was just a fluke. However, clever tricks work a lot better when backed up by brute force. In other words, if Girard hadn't been so frickin' paranoid and asked for help, he could have had dozens of paladins as backup.

This is my first post; is it okay?

[Mightymosy]

[...]
This is my first post; is it okay?

Yap, it is.

[mantisshrimp]

Here's my two-cents-from-a-brand-new-member-but-decently-long-time-fan: I think that while it would be physically impossible to make a single gate with all five forms of defense, all of them(except maybe Kraagor's Tomb) could really have benefited from help from the others;

-Aside from the obvious fact that Lirian should have prepared something like Protection from Fire or something, who said that epic-level spellcasters can't have epic-level fighters/barbarians as party members? Aside of liches, which are VERY rare in the Oots world, the main weakness of the spell-sapping-sickness was that it's useless against those who have no magic in the first place. Maybe psions can also No Sell it, but those are rare too. However, most fighters and barbarians lack the ability to break out of a Forcecage, something Dorukan probably could use.

This is my first post; is it okay?

Ah, but you see in order to utilize the gate to release or harness the snarl you need magic that ritual probably couldn't be used by a fighter or barbarian all they could do is destroy the gate which if you will remember is not an un-acceptable outcome so it would have been a very good defense except against liches.

[danielxcutter]

Ah, but you see in order to utilize the gate to release or harness the snarl you need magic that ritual probably couldn't be used by a fighter or barbarian all they could do is destroy the gate which if you will remember is not an un-acceptable outcome so it would have been a very good defense except against liches.

True, very true, but I never meant that the fighters/barbarians would destroy the gate. I meant that they would slaughter all the defenders, and THAT'S when the casters come in. In fact, casters aren't completely useless, since they can buff up the non-casters, or send in allies such as outsiders, constructs, or undead.

[Kish]

The Guardian Virus wasn't the only defense Lirian's Gate had--just the epic spell that stopped Xykon cold.

[littlebum2002]

In fact, casters aren't completely useless

They are in Lirian's forest. That's the whole point.

[Keltest]

They are in Lirian's forest. That's the whole point.

So cast their buffs outside of the forest, then hang back as the epic level martial characters with massive buffs on them go on an unstoppable rampage.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So cast their buffs outside of the forest, then hang back as the epic level martial characters with massive buffs on them go on an unstoppable rampage.

I'm AFB, but I thought that the virus eroded buffs too. I seem to recall one of Xykon's buffs dying during battle, but it's been a bit since I last read.

[Keltest]

I'm AFB, but I thought that the virus eroded buffs too. I seem to recall one of Xykon's buffs dying during battle, but it's been a bit since I last read.

I, fortunately, am not AFB, and double checked. What happened was the virus forced Xykon's magic nerve cluster to dismiss all his active effects.

[Jasdoif]

I, fortunately, am not AFB, and double checked. What happened was the virus forced Xykon's magic nerve cluster to dismiss all his active effects.Right. If an attacking force knew in advance about the guardian virus and didn't send the spellcasters in for magical reinforcement, the buffs would be safe. Presumably that's why Lirian tried keeping her prisoners locked up indefinitely.

Although come to think of it, I'm actually not sure if the virus would end effects from the caster that aren't normally dismissible, or were cast on creatures other than the caster.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Gotcha, so the virus itself does not dismiss the buffs. That is a certainly an exploitable loophole, though it would require knowing about the virus in advance, although I guess lack of foreknowledge is a trait of all the gates' defences.

[littlebum2002]

The best thing the virus had going for it was that Redcloak and Xykon didn't know about it. Presumably, no one else attacking the gate would either, so it's very hard to plan around. More than likely anyone attacking the gate would meet the same fate as those two and live their lives out undergound.

[Kurald Galain]

Gotcha, so the virus itself does not dismiss the buffs.

No,

I'm actually not sure if the virus would end effects from the caster that aren't normally dismissible, or were cast on creatures other than the caster.
(emphasis mine).


The best thing the virus had going for it was that Redcloak and Xykon didn't know about it. Presumably, no one else attacking the gate would either,
Yes, and even if people did know, there is no obvious counter to it. Other than being a paladin, there are no commonly known ways of becoming immune to disease. And given that it's epic-level magic, it may not even give you a saving throw.

[danielxcutter]

So..... what about the other way that I mentioned? You know, sending constructs, outsiders, undead... would that work too?

[Jasdoif]

No,

I'm actually not sure if the virus would end effects from the caster that aren't normally dismissible, or were cast on creatures other than the caster.
(emphasis mine).I seem to have missed a paragraph the first time around....I was questioning how much the guardian virus would matter if the spellcasters cast their buffs on other creatures. Being described as "forcing them to dismiss all active spells" leaves it unclear whether it would have that effect on spells that aren't normally dismissable, and/or whether it'd work on spells whose subjects are too far away from the caster to be dismissed normally ("within range of the spell’s effect" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#dismissible)).


So..... what about the other way that I mentioned? You know, sending constructs, outsiders, undead... would that work too?Constructs and undead are immune to disease, so that'd work (against the guardian virus anyway). Outsiders don't have a type-based immunity to disease, though.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

No,

(emphasis mine).

I'm not sure I follow what you're talking about here. My reading of Keltest's and Jasdoif's post was that the buffs were safe because the virus forces the caster to retract the buffs. Can you clarify what I'm missing?

[Kish]

I'd just like to mention that currently Lirian is being pilloried for not having had established defenses that would have blocked an entire adventuring party of Xykon's level with perfect knowledge of what they were going up against. But that would have strolled right through the defenses of Dorukan or Soon too--and while I realize that the "we didn't actually see them because Haerta blew them up real good first" nature of Girard's defenses leaves some people willing to say they were godlike, I'm taking the bold stance that if you think they would have kept out this hypothetical super-party, you're wrong.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure I follow what you're talking about here. My reading of Keltest's and Jasdoif's post was that the buffs were safe because the virus forces the caster to retract the buffs. Can you clarify what I'm missing?

Pretty much all buffs are dismissable, and as I understand it, Lirian points out that the virus would do so. I thought the interesting question was what would happen to spells which are explicitly not dismissable.

Constructs are indeed immune to disease, so the most credible threat to Lirian's gate (other than Team Evil) would have been Hieronymus Grubwiggler.
Undead are also immune, but in the OOTS verse, intelligent undead like vampires and liches appear to be extremely rare. A cadre of ghouls or skeletons would not fare particularly well against Lirian's minions.
On the other hand, forgetting to ward against fire, of all things, is a pretty blatant flaw. Especially considering the ridiculously long range on the Fireball spell.

[danielxcutter]

Pretty much all buffs are dismissable, and as I understand it, Lirian points out that the virus would do so. I thought the interesting question was what would happen to spells which are explicitly not dismissable.

Constructs are indeed immune to disease, so the most credible threat to Lirian's gate (other than Team Evil) would have been Hieronymus Grubwiggler.
Undead are also immune, but in the OOTS verse, intelligent undead like vampires and liches appear to be extremely rare. A cadre of ghouls or skeletons would not fare particularly well against Lirian's minions.
On the other hand, forgetting to ward against fire, of all things, is a pretty blatant flaw. Especially considering the ridiculously long range on the Fireball spell.

*cough*wights*cough*

I wonder, would it work on psions too? Of course those seem to be even rarer, since of the two we've seen, one was a goblin extra who's only shown up once, and the other was more or less a punch-clock anti-villain and wouldn't have taken Girard's gate if she'd known what it really was.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Pretty much all buffs are dismissable, and as I understand it, Lirian points out that the virus would do so. I thought the interesting question was what would happen to spells which are explicitly not dismissable.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I agree with you here; my question is whether or not the caster has to be present to remove the buffs, because the way Keltest has put makes it sound like the virus forces the caster to dismiss the buffs, rather than somehow being able to remove them entirely on its own. If your interpretation of that scene is different though, I'm willing to accept that to.

[Keltest]

I'd just like to mention that currently Lirian is being pilloried for not having had established defenses that would have blocked an entire adventuring party of Xykon's level with perfect knowledge of what they were going up against. But that would have strolled right through the defenses of Dorukan or Soon too--and while I realize that the "we didn't actually see them because Haerta blew them up real good first" nature of Girard's defenses leaves some people willing to say they were godlike, I'm taking the bold stance that if you think they would have kept out this hypothetical super-party, you're wrong.

I am deeply curious as to how you think the addition of a couple low-epic martial classes would have helped them break into Redmountain or defeat the Kinda-sorta-ghost of Soon and his minions. The Dorukan problem was solved by Xykon using his wits (oddly), not by battering down the door, something he was already capable of doing.

[DaggerPen]

My big problem with the idea that Lirian's lack of defenses against fire for the Treants may have been a defense to prevent the Gate from being taken and subverted is that forest fires happen naturally all the time. Redcloak's dialogue indicates that Lirian has probably been deliberately suppressing forest fires in the area for a while, too, which any druid worth her salt should know means that the inevitable conflagration will just be that much worse. Ward your Treants against fire as a just-in-case and toss in a self-destruct button, come on.

(The anti-caster virus, however, was brilliant - while it wouldn't work on everyone, it still worked on a large selection of threats, and she had active Gate defenders for the rest. A spectrum of available defenses that counter different forms of attack is just as valid as one single method of defense that somehow stops everything.)

[Jasdoif]

My big problem with the idea that Lirian's lack of defenses against fire for the Treants may have been a defense to prevent the Gate from being taken and subverted is that forest fires happen naturally all the time. Redcloak's dialogue indicates that Lirian has probably been deliberately suppressing forest fires in the area for a while, too, which any druid worth her salt should know means that the inevitable conflagration will just be that much worse. Ward your Treants against fire as a just-in-case and toss in a self-destruct button, come on.My current evaluation is that Lirian's glade was set up on an "inverse dungeon" model: Her resources were concentrated on the perimeter, instead of at the Gate in the center (figuratively at the center, at least). This makes some sense: it gives the guardian virus time to kick in, reduces the chance of random attackers stumbling across the Gate, and dissuades less committed attackers in general. But it also means that there are fewer resources left for an attacker who gets past the perimeter...such as escapees from her prison.

Lirian herself was the general backup. Which might have worked out fine if had she known more about undead, or if she were fighting Redcloak instead of newly-undead Xykon. As it was though, she had the same problem the guardian virus had: Lirian put so much stock in the cycle of life that she didn't account for what could lie outside of it.

[The MunchKING]

I am deeply curious as to how you think the addition of a couple low-epic martial classes would have helped them break into Redmountain or defeat the Kinda-sorta-ghost of Soon and his minions. The Dorukan problem was solved by Xykon using his wits (oddly), not by battering down the door, something he was already capable of doing.

Honestly? The Anti-Ghost Paladins weren't all that high of level by and large. Xykon was pretty much shrugging off all their attacks except Soon. Get a fighter-type in there with some kind of weapon that can hit Ghosts, preferably an Unholy Anarchistic weapon for maximum effect, and he would be cleaving through most of the Paladins. And that's just one low-epic level fighter guy. The more of them you have, and even Soon becomes "not that big of a threat".

[Mightymosy]

I don't know if it was this thread, but someone made a pretty nice post about Serini and analysed how her being a rogue who is the archetypical greedy-on-money-person could go about designing her gate defence.

That line of thought got me thinking in a different direction I haven't read here yet:
Maybe her design is stealing gate defence mechanisms from the others? She was the one who tried to hold the group together as much as possible, and didn't seem to have any grievance against any other team member. She didn't show particular investment in one right way to defend the gate like her comrades did, and neither did she show any dislike for how they chose to defend.
We know she incorporates big strong monsters into her gate defence in memoriam to Kraagor. Maybe she used her "time not yet for retiring" to spy onto the other gates of her friends (she had the locations!) and snapped something off from each?
She could easily have snatched the guardian virus from Lirian's glade, and maybe some sigil Dorukan had prepared.
No idea how to steal "the honor of a paladin" or any of Girard's defences, though. Maybe someone has an idea?

Rich Burlew has used countless common tropes from games, video games, comics, movies and stories before. In a couple video games the final level is a composition of boss fights and/or hard levels you have encountered before. Why shouldn't he use a variation of that for the final gate?

[Mightymosy]

My big problem with the idea that Lirian's lack of defenses against fire for the Treants may have been a defense to prevent the Gate from being taken and subverted is that forest fires happen naturally all the time. Redcloak's dialogue indicates that Lirian has probably been deliberately suppressing forest fires in the area for a while, too, which any druid worth her salt should know means that the inevitable conflagration will just be that much worse. Ward your Treants against fire as a just-in-case and toss in a self-destruct button, come on.

(The anti-caster virus, however, was brilliant - while it wouldn't work on everyone, it still worked on a large selection of threats, and she had active Gate defenders for the rest. A spectrum of available defenses that counter different forms of attack is just as valid as one single method of defense that somehow stops everything.)

I think the lack of fire shielding was a major blunder, an epic fail that should make us readers laugh.

The concept of tieing the gate to living trees in order to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, was brilliant, if that was the idea behind it.

[factotum]

The concept of tieing the gate to living trees in order to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands, was brilliant, if that was the idea behind it.

That certainly makes sense--the only other member of the Scribble who definitely set up a method for destroying their Gate to prevent it falling into the wrong hands was Dorukan (the self-destruct rune), and the treants certainly wouldn't have been much use in a fight, hampered as they were by the ropes tying them to the Gate. However, that doesn't make the lack of any wards against fire in the area a *good* idea by any means!

[danielxcutter]

So we all agree that Lirian REALLY should have cast Protection from Fire(or something like that; is it on the druid spell list?), but the magic virus was genius, right?

[littlebum2002]

So we all agree that Lirian REALLY should have cast Protection from Fire(or something like that; is it on the druid spell list?), but the magic virus was genius, right?

Why cast Protection from Fire?

If her virus works, then the attackers won't be able to cast any Fire spells, anyway. If it doesn't work, then the attacker is going to be something incredibly powerful (someone who owns an Artifact that saves them from disease, for example, or a lich) and the Protection from Fire won't help because they could just overwhelm it anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

Why cast Protection from Fire?

Because (1) the Fireball spell has a very long range and can possibly be cast from outside the virus's influence, and (2) non-magical fire is also a hazard.

[Keltest]

Why cast Protection from Fire?

If her virus works, then the attackers won't be able to cast any Fire spells, anyway. If it doesn't work, then the attacker is going to be something incredibly powerful (someone who owns an Artifact that saves them from disease, for example, or a lich) and the Protection from Fire won't help because they could just overwhelm it anyway.

Soaking up 120 points of fire damage per target is non-trivial. Even and especially since her defenses seem especially vulnerable to errant fires. Even it it means Redcloak has to cast Flame Strike twice to deal with the treants instead of just once, that's another spell slot he had to burn.

[georgie_leech]

Slight quibble, Protection from Energy only lasts a couple of hours at best. At least, absent metamagic that we don't have any evidence for Lirian possessing. It seems possible that she would ward her defenders against Fire in the event of an attack from the outside, which would give her ample warning.

Really the issue was more the placement of the prison. Regardless of how inescapable the prison is, it seems like a good idea to keep the entirely passive jail with no active defenders outside of your defenses. :smalltongue:

[littlebum2002]

Because (1) the Fireball spell has a very long range and can possibly be cast from outside the virus's influence, and (2) non-magical fire is also a hazard.

That would require you to know about the virus beforehand, and how could you?

As I mentioned before, the entirety of Lirian's defense scheme hinges upon this virus being a secret weapon. Considering that anyone who finds out about it spends the rest of their lives in prison (with one unfortunate exception), how would word of this virus spread so that you could plan around i and fire your spells from outside the virus' influence?

[hroþila]

I always assumed Redcloak was right and that Lirian had probably cast Protection from Fire... before the first battle (which, let us not forget, came after days of fighting through the forest, so she had ample warning).

Why cast Protection from Fire?

If her virus works, then the attackers won't be able to cast any Fire spells, anyway. If it doesn't work, then the attacker is going to be something incredibly powerful (someone who owns an Artifact that saves them from disease, for example, or a lich) and the Protection from Fire won't help because they could just overwhelm it anyway.
Xykon and the goblin spellcasters still managed to cast plenty of spells before the virus acted.

[The Artisan]

Why cast Protection from Fire?


Maybe cuz fire can be started without a spell? Like, any random fighter with flint and steel could beat her protection just by igniting it.

[Kurald Galain]

That would require you to know about the virus beforehand, and how could you?

Nope. Long-range artillery is a valid tactic regardless of whether or not there's a virus present.

[DaggerPen]

Also, flaming sword/axe/arrow/etc. enchantments. Generally not vulnerable to a virus by dint of being nonliving, likely to super set things aflame.

[littlebum2002]

I always assumed Redcloak was right and that Lirian had probably cast Protection from Fire... before the first battle (which, let us not forget, came after days of fighting through the forest, so she had ample warning).

Xykon and the goblin spellcasters still managed to cast plenty of spells before the virus acted.


Maybe cuz fire can be started without a spell? Like, any random fighter with flint and steel could beat her protection just by igniting it.


Nope. Long-range artillery is a valid tactic regardless of whether or not there's a virus present.


Also, flaming sword/axe/arrow/etc. enchantments. Generally not vulnerable to a virus by dint of being nonliving, likely to super set things aflame.

Points taken! :smallcool:

[Calthropstu]

That would require you to know about the virus beforehand, and how could you?

As I mentioned before, the entirety of Lirian's defense scheme hinges upon this virus being a secret weapon. Considering that anyone who finds out about it spends the rest of their lives in prison (with one unfortunate exception), how would word of this virus spread so that you could plan around i and fire your spells from outside the virus' influence?

Actually, it would just require you to be afraid of an epic level bow wielding ranger and deciding to lay waste to her defenses from afar.

[georgie_leech]

Actually, it would just require you to be afraid of an epic level bow wielding ranger and deciding to lay waste to her defenses from afar.

Shame that the Druid Lirian didn't have one of those lying around then.

[mantisshrimp]

The question is not really about destruction everyone is saying that each gate was badly defended because it was destroyed but that is an acceptable outcome the reall measure of success in this thread should be which gate was best prepared to stop a high level caster from manipulating the gate in order to release or control the GOD KILLING abomination

[Keltest]

The question is not really about destruction everyone is saying that each gate was badly defended because it was destroyed but that is an acceptable outcome the reall measure of success in this thread should be which gate was best prepared to stop a high level caster from manipulating the gate in order to release or control the GOD KILLING abomination

As we have seen in the current arc, "destroyed" is not a good outcome either. Youre right, its better than "snarl gets loose in Thor's throne room", but only marginally.

[5a Violista]

Also, related to the above point:
Some of the previous posts had already mentioned this, but the living defenders for two of the gates were the ones who cast the gates in the first place. So, "destruction of the gate" was, in fact, a safety measure rather than a weakness - especially for those two gates. That's also probably why Dorukan and Lirian kept in contact: in case any of the gates fell, those two could reconstruct the gate. Their weakness was then because those two didn't rely on each other enough. So it's not really fair to say that Soon's or Lirian's or Dorukan's gates were poorly defended because they could be easily broken: rather, they were easily broken because it was meant to prevent capture.

The only reason why this ("easily destroyed") had become a problem was because Lirian and Dorukan were soul-trapped.