What is Undead?

[Azedenkae]

Hi guys,

I am creating a character who worships Lathander. That has posed a problem, as one of the things about his worshippers, is their hatred towards the undead.

Issue is... what is the definition of undead? What's your opinion? Is there an official definition somewhere?

For example, if someone dies and the 'Raise Dead' spell is used on him/her/it, is s/he now technically an undead? Is a Ravenant an undead? Liches? Vampires? What about someone reincarnated with the 'Reincarnate' spell? I know there are monsters that will have 'Undead' clearly written in its description, but yeah... especially RP-wise, what counts as undead?

[Regulas]

Hi guys,

I am creating a character who worships Lathander. That has posed a problem, as one of the things about his worshippers, is their hatred towards the undead.

Issue is... what is the definition of undead? What's your opinion? Is there an official definition somewhere?

For example, if someone dies and the 'Raise Dead' spell is used on him/her/it, is s/he now technically an undead? Is a Ravenant an undead? Liches? Vampires? What about someone reincarnated with the 'Reincarnate' spell? I know there are monsters that will have 'Undead' clearly written in its description, but yeah... especially RP-wise, what counts as undead?

Well functionally being undead refers specifically to undead creatures like those raised by animate dead, and including vampires and liches. If you wanted to you could RP it like the Raised person was undead though technically by the rules he is living and not undead (the spell exists more to solve player death issues then because it really fits being so accessible in the world).

[Millstone85]

The MM has this definition:
Undead are once-living creatures brought to a horrifying state of undeath through the practice of necromantic magic or some unholy curse. Undead include walking corpses, such as vampires and zombies, as well as bodiless spirits, such as ghosts and specters.

It is worth noting that raise dead belongs to the school of necromancy but actually brings you back among the living, not the undead.

[manny2510]

Hi guys,

I am creating a character who worships Lathander. That has posed a problem, as one of the things about his worshippers, is their hatred towards the undead.

Issue is... what is the definition of undead? What's your opinion? Is there an official definition somewhere?

For example, if someone dies and the 'Raise Dead' spell is used on him/her/it, is s/he now technically an undead? Is a Ravenant an undead? Liches? Vampires? What about someone reincarnated with the 'Reincarnate' spell? I know there are monsters that will have 'Undead' clearly written in its description, but yeah... especially RP-wise, what counts as undead?

Ummmm... A DUCK!

[Naanomi]

While a layman may be confused, a Knowledge: Religion or Knowledge: Arcana roll would reveal all kinds of information about the soul, state or lack of, positive and negative energy... all of which concluding that there is in fact a clear (mechanical and philosophical) and identifiable definition of 'undead'; not the least of which is the many special abilities and spells that respond to Undead differently than living (including resurrected) targets

[Gastronomie]

A biologically "dead" body that uses negative energy to function.

I think that D&D logic wise, that is the answer.

Now, as to what this "negative energy" really is, I have absolutely no idea.

[Naanomi]

In dnd cosmology: There are two 'energy planes' (positive and negative) that roughly correspond to creation and destruction; where they are varies a little between edition's cosmologies. They are the 'source' of the energy in the multiverse in the same way the elemental planes are the 'source' of elemental matter. This is a seperate stuff than the outer-planes aligned 'soul' (though they may be related)

The vast majority of physical living things have a flow of positive energy that keeps them mobile: without it they are just inanimate and immobile bodies. However, through magic or circumstances sometimes a body (or mind, the source of incorporeal undead) can instead run off of negative energy; the result is an undead creature.

[Finback]

Hi guys,



*reads subject line*

Zombie don't hurt me, don't hurt me... no more..


(someone had to do it!)

[Knaight]

The MM has this definition:

That's pretty useless though. A creature in the state of undeath tells us nothing we don't already know. Horrifying is a new limitation, but that's about it.

[saeval]

I believe it would have been stated that Lathander worshipers shunned Raise Dead and Resurrection spells if it was intended. Lathander is not a new god, forgotten realms is not a new setting. If you are saying your character chooses to shun those brought back to life by positive energy/divine favor, than that is fine, but that isn't how that whole church of Lathander operates. The distinction would definitely have been made. Negative and Positive energy are a pretty well known part of the clerical faerun world.

Revenant is silly, and really pulled the punches on saying the word undead. To me, it seems rather clear that it is supposed to be a state of unlife.... but you are right, in that, it doesn't explicity state that. it state you are supposed to have been slain and brought back... but it doesn't state how. Everything under relentless nature screams traits of cursed undead... but you don't get any of the pitfalls of undeath.

If I had a cleric of lathander, that met a "good" revenant... he'd cave in his skull and promise to fulfill his task.

specifically for Lathander clerics, they generally are not raised unless they still need to complete an important task.

[Regitnui]

An approximation of life reliant on negative energy, or entropy, channelled by magic, either natural or unnatural. The entropic energy is inefficient for the continuance of life, so that the vessel often appears rotten, incomplete or subtly unnerving. Also, this means the undead needs positive energy (creative) to counteract the decaying effects of entropy.
See also: Undying

The 3.5 book Libris Mortis tries to.answer this question. Give it a shot.

[Azedenkae]

Thanks everyone. I guess the consensus is that they are 'alive' via negative energy. Which I guess makes sense, as healing spells (positive energy?) damages them.

My question now is, do healing spells damage:
-Vampires
-Liches
-Revenants

[Fighting_Ferret]

Positive and negative energies have been replaced by radiant and necrotic damages. Most undead are resistant to necrotic. Some are more susceptible to radiant, although it isn't common. Radiant damage will keep a vampire from regenerating its health for one round, making the fight easier if radiant damage is used every round. The same applies to the revenant, although fire damage would also work in that case.

The major spell that return someone to life are Raise Dead, Reincarnation, Ressurection, and Revivify.

Revivify works as a sort of resuscitation, not pulling the soul back from the beyond. It has to be used within on minute of the person dying, and is a conjuration spell.
Think princess bride here... they are not dead, just mostly dead.

Raise Dead works to bring a willing soul back to it's mortal coil. Key words is willing...if the soul isn't willing or free to return, then nothing happens and the spell fails. It works up to 10 days after death, neutralizing poisons and disease, healing grievous wounds. It even drops a penalty on the returned person. It is a necromancy spell.

Reincarnation is the druid's version of raise dead... but it still requires a willing and able soul. Unlike Raise Dead it actually creates a new physical body for the soul to enter. It has the same 10 day limitation, but is a transmutation spell.

Resurrection is the highest power available to return a soul to its physical self. You can pull anyone back from the dead, regardless of the time they have been dead. There is still the existing caveats of free and willing soul, but there are two new editions... the target can't be undead and can't have died of old age. Other than that it is very similar to raise dead, but actually regenerates lost body parts. It is originally noted as working on anything that has been dead less than a century, but the spell goes onto list affects for casting it on things that have been dead longer than that. It is a necromancy spell.

Now necromancy gets a dubious rap as it is most often associated with undeath, but it also includes the study of life and death, as well. More interesting to me is that healing spells are now evocation spells, as opposed to conjuration or necromancy as in past editions.

[Naanomi]

Technically positive and negative energy still exist as setting concepts, but it is true the mechanical effects have largely (entirely?) been replaced with damage types. Heal doesn't hurt undead like it did in some previous editions, though it won't heal them either.

Vampires, revenants, liches... All are undead (even if free willed) so all the same applies to them as the common skeleton

[Alejandro]

A biologically "dead" body that uses negative energy to function.

I think that D&D logic wise, that is the answer.

Now, as to what this "negative energy" really is, I have absolutely no idea.

Not just biologically dead bodies, as there are also shadows, ghosts, and such, that have no actual body at all.

[Slipperychicken]

Undead only refers to creatures with that type. A vampire is undead, but a humanoid affected by raise dead is still a humanoid.


Thanks everyone. I guess the consensus is that they are 'alive' via negative energy. Which I guess makes sense, as healing spells (positive energy?) damages them.

Positive and negative energy aren't a thing in 5e rules (though they do appear in fluff). Healing spells don't damage undead unless something specifies that, but most healing spells specify that they do not affect undead or constructs.

[Daishain]

Thanks everyone. I guess the consensus is that they are 'alive' via negative energy. Which I guess makes sense, as healing spells (positive energy?) damages them.

My question now is, do healing spells damage:
-Vampires
-Liches
-Revenants
Healing spells should by fluff harm the first two, as their unlife is maintained via negative energy, though either may have magically born defenses against such, I'm AFB so can't check

The third is trickier. Unlike the other two revenants are not to my knowledge by default connected to the negative energy plane. I'd be inclined to say no, while placing them in a similar category to the Baelnorn (Baelnorn are like liches in concept, but maintain their unlife via positive energy rather than negative. healing spells heal them, not harm)

[Fighting_Ferret]

Healing spells should by fluff harm the first two, as their unlife is maintained via negative energy, though either may have magically born defenses against such, I'm AFB so can't check

The third is trickier. Unlike the other two revenants are not to my knowledge by default connected to the negative energy plane. I'd be inclined to say no, while placing them in a similar category to the Baelnorn (Baelnorn are like liches in concept, but maintain their unlife via positive energy rather than negative. healing spells heal them, not harm)

Every healing spell in 5e is an evocation spell with the specific wording that is does not affect undead or constructs...

Also of note is that Inflict wounds and Harm are necromancy spells, and thus deal necrotic damage.

Also of note is that undead aren't especially vulnerable to radiant damage, although none of them are resistant to it either, meaning it is always fully effective against them.