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FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-08, 11:46 PM
We are currently in the process of brewing the avenger (the one from 4e) for use in the 5e system, any ideas, suggestions, wording fixes, or complaints please feel free to comment. If you would like to know where help is currently needed check the "Under Construction" Section near the bottom.

Thanks!

Themes:

The Avenger is a Warrior:
Capable of fighting on the front line for extended periods of time, the avenger uses it's reliable damage to wear it's foes down to nothing.

The Avenger is a Devout:
Trained by, and serving for, their god the avenger derives it's powers from a link to it's god. Acting as a conduit for their god's powers.

The Avenger is the Ultimate Exterminator:
Once an avenger has set it's sights upon a target, little can stop it from eliminating it. The avenger will follow it's victim to the end of the world, sacrificing anything to eliminate their god's enemies.


Avenger (Draft)

An elf strides through a forest after dark, hood drawn and weapon ready, and lays his eyes upon his target. He mutters a prayer to the Raven Queen and all blurs around him, only the necromancer remains in focus. As he moves and fights his actions aren’t his own, but instead guided by the dark Queen herself.
Dressed in naught but darkened robes the woman peers from atop a tree out over the orcish encampment, looking for the one responsible for the tragedy all those long years ago. Or-Thaug notices something moving through the leaves and tries to run, but it’s too late. He’s been marked and now there’s no place left to hide.
An axe bites deep into the flesh of a dwarf, but the pain only strengthens his resolve. He turns to the man responsible, a bandit involved in the attack on Taubold. With righteous fury burning in his eyes, he raises his hammer high and shouts the name of Moradin before bringing his hammer down in blinding flash of holy vengeance.
Avengers are as diverse as the gods that they serve, but it is their wrath that unites them. Whether sworn to forever pursue those who would run from their god, or to seek retribution for wrongs done to the church an avenger is driven by a sense of divine wrath.

Forgotten Rites
Hidden from the rest of the world, in temples or monasteries secret covenants meet to train their initiates in traditions long forgotten or forbidden by the rest of their church. Those who complete this training are avengers, deadly avatars of their god hatred.
Avengers spend their years of training studying ancient and long forgotten texts of their religions and memorizing sacred prayers which they recite in the midst of battle. At the finish of their training an avenger goes through a ceremony of investiture which culminates in a manifestation of their deity.
Upon completing their investiture an avenger is granted the ability to wield divine power, channeling the essence of their god to create magical effects or to increase their prowess in battle. By doing so they honor their god and bring an end to any who would oppose them.

Justice and Exaltation
Not many know of the orders which train these esoteric warriors, or why they would choose to live their entire lives in service to a single deity and in search of traitors and heretics. Few priests of even the most vengeful of gods have ever heard of the avengers that worship besides them, the groups which recruit and train these avengers are secretive and deal with those who would spill their secrets in their own fashion. Fewer then are recruits that make it to the investiture, either passing on the way or being “silenced” due to a slip in tongue.
Upon completion of their training, even fewer then are the avengers who do not take to the adventuring life. None are the treacherous beings who will turn themselves into the church, and so it is the avengers duty the seek out these individuals and bring the wrath of their gods to them.

Creating an Avenger
As you create your avenger think about the reasons that drove you to become an avenger and undergo the hellish training that led to your divine powers. Did you spend your years mourning the loss of a loved one until a group reached out and offered the ability to right that wrong? Do you belong to a race in which every member shares a special connection to a certain god or deity? Or were you a simple farmer until an army of undead destroyed your town, and a voice spoke in the back of your head telling you of somewhere you can go to prepare you for the fight ahead?
One of the most important parts of your avenger is the god you worship, appendix B in the Player’s Hand Book lists the deities worshipped by avengers across the multiverse. While any god could have an avenger in their service it is more likely that a vengeful god or one who presides over war or death would have more avengers in their service, some such gods include: Bane, Kelemvor, Torm, Erythnul, Nerull, Sargonnas, The Raven Queen, Ares, Bast, and Hel.
Next consider why your avenger is adventuring. Did you catch wind of a man in a distant land man who has done wrong by your god? Did one of your god’s long time priests renounce his religion and then run from the church? Does your god seek the extermination of a particular race or of creatures? Perhaps you are out for revenge against a certain individual or group that has left a dark mark on your past. Or maybe it’s traditional that one of your lineage would take the position of avenger and eliminate the enemies of your god.



Level
Proficiency
Features
Spells Known
Spell slots
Slot Level


1st
+2
Oath of Enmity, Armor of Faith, Angelic Fortitude.
-
-
-


2nd
+2
Spellcasting, Blade of Zeal, Sacred Studies
3
1
1st


3rd
+2
Divine Censure
4
1
1st


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
4
2
1st


5th
+3
Extra Attack
5
2
2nd


6th
+3
Renewing Strike
5
2
2nd


7th
+3
Censure Feature
6
2
2nd


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement
6
2
2nd


9th
+4
---
7
2
3rd


10th
+4

7
2
3rd


11th
+4

8
2
3rd


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement
8
2
3rd


13th
+5
---
9
3
4th


14th
+5

9
3
4th


15th
+5
Censure Feature
10
3
4th


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement
10
3
4th


17th
+6
Holy Inspiration
11
3
4th*


18th
+6
Censure Feature
11
3
4th*


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement
12
3
4th*


20th
+6

12
3
4th*



Class Features
As an avenger you gain the following class features.

Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d10 per avenger level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 10 + your Wisdom modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Wisdom modifier per avenger level after 1st

Proficiencies
Armor: None
Weapons: Martial melee weapons, Simple weapons
Tools: Calligrapher's Supplies

Saving Throws: Wisdom, Charisma
Skills: Choose three from Acrobatics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, Religion, and Stealth

Equipment
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

• (a) a martial melee weapon or (b) any simple weapon
• (a) an explorer’s pack or (b) a priest’s pack
• A holy symbol, a tome of your religion, and calligrapher's supplies

Oath of Enmity
Starting at 1st level, your years of piety have granted you the ability to mark a creature as an enemy of your god. As a bonus action on your turn you may choose one creature within 30 feet of you as your target as long as you don't already have one. Your oath of enmity lasts until the target drops to 0 hit points or falls unconscious or you choose to end it as an action. As long as the target is marked you gain the following features.



When no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you, melee attacks using strength against your Oath of Enmity target have advantage.
You may choose to have your melee attacks deal radiant damage.


While using this ability your god’s influence flows through you, entering you into a combat state in which prayers are uttered instinctively, and your Mind and body focus unerringly on a single target

Armor of Faith
Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC is calculated as 10 + your Dexterity Modifier + your Wisdom Modifier.

Angelic Fortitude
Through rites and rituals your god has bolstered your resilience. Starting at 1st level the amount of health you gain per level is equal to 1d10 + You Wis. Mod. Per avenger level.

Spellcasting
By 2nd level Your scripture study and the powers bestowed on you by gods have given you facility with spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and the end of this document for the avenger spell list.

Blade of Zeal
Starting at 2nd level, whenever you make an attack with advantage because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice rolls have the same roll, unless both rolls are a one. When you score a critical hit in this fashion you deal extra radiant damage equal to your avenger level.

Spell Slots
The Avenger table shows how many spell slots you have. The table also shows what the level of those slots is; all of your spell slots are the same level. To cast one of your Avenger spells of 1st level or higher, you must expend a spell slot. You regain all expended spell slots when you finish a short or long rest.
For example, when you are 6th level, you have two 2nd-level spell slots. To cast the 1st-level spell thunderous smite, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a 2nd-level spell.

Spells Known of 1st Level and Higher
At 2nd level, you know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the Avenger spell list. The Spells Known column of the Avenger table shows when you learn more avenger spells of your choice of 1st level and higher. A spell you choose must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level. When you reach 5th level, for example, you learn a new avenger spell, which can be 1st, or 2nd level.
Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can choose one of the Avenger spells you know and replace it with another spell from the Avenger spell list, which also must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

Spellcasting Ability
Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Avenger spells, so you use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability.
In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a Avenger spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one.

Spell save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier
Spell attack modifier = your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier

Spellcasting Focus
You can use a holy symbol (found in chapter 5) as a spellcasting focus for your avenger spells.

Sacred Studies
Starting at 2nd level you gain proficiency in religion if you aren't already, if you already are proficient in religion then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses religion.
In addition your studies in the ancient texts have made you learned in the languages in which they are written, you learn one language from the following list, Supernal, Infernal, or Sylvan.

Divine Censure
At 3rd level you may pick either the Censure of Pursuit, Censure of Retribution, or the Censure of Unity all detailed at the end of the class description.
Your choice grants you features at 3rd level and again at 7th, 15th, and 20th level, this includes the channel divinity feature.

Channel Divinity
Your censure allows you to channel your god’s power to fuel magical effects. Each Channel Divinity option provided by your censure explains how to use it. When you use your Channel Divinity, you choose which option to use. You must then finish a short or long rest to use your Channel Divinity again.
Some Channel Divinity effects require saving throws. When you use such an effect from this class, the DC equals your avenger spell save DC.

Renewing Strike
Starting at 6th level the action of eliminating your foe blesses you with the resolve to fight on. Whenever you reduce your oath target to 0 hitpoints you gain a number of temporary hitpoints equal to one-half the damage of the attack that finished your target.

(10th Level - To be Determined)


(14th Level - To be Determined)


(18th Level - To be Determined)

Holy Inspiration
Starting at 16th your god inspires you to temporarily channel massive amounts of power, you learn how to cast 5th level spells. In addition you may convert a 4th level spell slot to a 5th level spell slot once per long rest. At 19th level you may do so once per short or long rest.

Divine Censures

Censure of Pursuit

Censure of Pursuit Expanded Spells

Spell Level
Spells


1st
hunter’s mark, dissonant whispers



2nd
levitate, hold person


3rd
blink, clairvoyance


4th
dimension door, locate creature


5th
scrying, hold monster



CHANNEL DIVINITY
When you take this oath at 3rd leveI, you gain the following two Channel Divinity options.
On Angels Wings. As a bonus action on your turn you may beseech your god to bestow you with supernatural mobilty. For one hour your speed is doubled and you gain a climb and swim speed equal to your move speed.
In addition you can jump your maximum distance without a running start.
Visage of the Reaper As an action on your turn you may present your holy symbol and call upon your god to imbue your foe with pure terror. Choose one target within 10 feet and force it to roll a Wisdom save, creatures immune to being frightened automatically succeed. On a failed save, for one minute, the target must use it's movement at the start of each of it's turn's to move as far away from you as possible. The target may repeat it's save at the end of each of it's turns.

Nowhere to Run
Starting at 7th level, Whenever you successfully hit your oath of enmity target with an opportunity attack, you may move up to your speed after your target, staying adjacent to the target as far as able. This movement does not provoke oppurtunity attacks.

Nowhere to Hide
Starting at 15th level As an action you may speak the name of any creature that you have seen, it must be their real name, upon speaking the name they become marked by your oath of enmity, in addition to it's normal effects you know the direction and distance to that creature if it is on the same plane as you, if not you know the name of the plane which it's on but nothing else.
(18th Level - To be Determined)

Censure of Retribution
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Censure of Retribution Expanded Spells

Spell Level
Spells


1st
armor of Agathys, hellish rebuke



2nd
heat metal, slow



3rd
spirit guardians, bestow curse


4th
fire shield, guardian of faith


5th
geas, destructive wave



(3rd Level - To be Determined

Oath of Malice
At 7th level you can channel you god's anger to frighten your oath of enmity target. As a reaction to being hit by your oath target you may force that creature to roll a Wisdom saving throw, it must succeed a DC equal to your avenger spell save DC or be frightened of you for one minute. The creature may reroll the saving throw at the end of each of it's turns. If a creatures succeeds on it's saving throw you may not use this feature on that creature for 24 hours.

(15th Level - To be Determined

(18th Level - To be Determined)

Censure of Unity

[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Spell Level
Spells


1st
To Be Determined


2nd
-


3rd
-


4th
-


5th
-



(3rd Level - To be Determined)

(7th Level - To be Determined)

(15th Level - To be Determined)

(18th Level - To be Determined)


Avenger Spells

1st Level
Bane
Compelled Duel
Detect Evil and Good
Divine Favor
Expeditious Retreat
Longstrider
Searing Smite
Tasha’s Hideous
Laughter
Thunderous Smite
Wrathful Smite

2nd Level
Blur
Branding Smite
Darkvision
Enhance Ability
Magic Weapon
Misty Step
See Invisibility

3rd Level
Blinding Smite
Bestow Curse
Dispel Magic
Fear
Haste
See Invisibility
Water Walk

4th Level
Banishment
Death Ward
Freedom of Movement
Staggering Smite

5th Level
Banishing Smite
Destructive Wave
Dispel evil and good
Legend Lore
Passwall

~

Change Log:



Modified Oath of Enmity, now allows damage to be exchange for radiant damage.
Avenger now uses strength to make attacks (removed sacred covenant) but uses wisdom instead of con for life total. (added angelic fortitude)
Second level feature added, slightly upping damage. (added Blade of Zeal)
Modified Oath of Enmity, now only works with strength weapons blocking use of sneak attack.
Modified spell level and slot progression to match other half-caster classes
Avenger can now convert 4th level slot to 5th level. (added Holy Mystery)
Laid out the framework for the avenger subclasses at 3rd, 7th, 15th, and 20th level
Changed Holy Mystery to Holy Inspiration
Changed around class table
Added some second level features (added Blade of Zeal) (added Sacred Studies)
Added some subclass features (added Nowhere to Hide)
Added a spell list for the Pursuit and Retribution subclasses.
Added some 7th level features for two of the subclasses. (Added Nowher to Run) (Added Oath of Malice)
Avenger survivabilty increased (Added Renewing Strike)


Under Construction:



Subclass features:

Pursuit - Focuses on tracking down targets and moving with extreme speed, uses damaging auras to provoke opportunity attacks.
Retribution - The most aggressive subclass, throws caution to the wind and runs into battle getting stronger any time he gets hurt.
Unity - Most tactical subclass, gains benefits from maneuvering foes, supports allies, and eventually extends Oath of enmity for allied use.






Class features for open levels.
Ribbon features
General work fixes and balancing.

Scarce
2016-06-09, 02:09 AM
First, a word on Theme: adaptation vs creation. If your intent is to simply convert the Avenger, you probably won't like your results much, because it was a class which filled a mechanical niche in 4e which no longer exists. Thematically, the paladin's Oath of Vengeance fulfills the character archetype. Therefore, I would strongly recommend a minor refluff and a rename by the time the final draft comes around. Make this something of an explicit religious assassin, like a cross between a paladin and a rogue, with maybe a bit of monk thrown in. This gives you a lot of room to grow in the theme department.

Oath of Enmity
I have pretty major suspicions about constant, long-term advantage on attack rolls (read: this is not done in this edition, and you probably shouldn't do it.) Aside from the problems with rogue multiclassing, there just isn't an example of anything that offers this in the PHB (other than Oath of Enmity, the paladin feature, of course.) I tried to find a spell for reference which just gives you advantage on attack rolls and I could only find two: true strike, which requires another action, and only gives you advantage on 1 attack, and foresight, a 9th level spell. This hints about something hidden deep in the edition: advantage is for special occasions.

Thankfully, there are other options: you can add bonus dice of radiant or necrotic damage, you can increase the critical threat range, you could get Sneak Attack against this target, you can attack as a reaction on this target when it attacks you, you can make one additional attack against this target when you take the Attack action, and so on. Plenty of non-advantage options.

Hell, you could give a list of all these suggestions above as minor vows which augment this ability, and let the player pick from among them at character creation like invocations. It's like a customizable sneak attack.

Armor of Faith
I would stick with tradition and make this 10 + Dex + Wis and give the class light armor. Or give it Uncanny Dodge or something instead of this. I'm sure you have some balance in mind, but there's no sense in making a class that is just lousy with getting hit.

Moreover, I don't get the sense that this class should be thematically unarmored. It's closest in theme to a rogue, right? Follow the rogue as a template here.

Sacred Covenant
Boy, do I have a problem with this. You can't just use Wisdom in place of a physical ability score like it's a cantrip! The edition makes tons of assumptions about the way that you use abilities for attacks, and if you change this, tons of stuff won't work correctly. Like, for argument's sake, if you have two poisons in your system which reduce your Strength to 7 and your Dexterity to 7, you can somehow perform in combat completely unimpeded. Moreover, you can outdamage a barbarian using Strength weapons after dumping your Strength score! It's crazy-bonkers and it think it needs to be scrapped.

DeAnno
2016-06-09, 06:44 AM
With regards to Oath of Enmity, I think you should work it like this:

Oath of Enmity
Starting at 1st level, your years of piety have granted you the ability to mark a creature as an enemy of your god. As a bonus action on your turn you may choose one creature within 30 feet of you as the subject of your Oath, as long as you don't have one already. Your Oath of Enmity lasts until the target is unconscious or dead, or until you choose to end it (no action). Once you have used this feature a number of times as shown on the Avenger table you must complete a short or long rest before you can use it again.

Attacks against your Oath of Enmity deal radiant damage instead of normal weapon damage.
When no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you, attacks against your Oath of Enmity have advantage.


I lifted the advantage condition off of the Rakish Audacity Rogue feature, since it is already vetted for 5e and similar to the old Avenger rule. Since you use the Barb rage table for # of Oaths I think you should operate on Long Rests like they do. I also made clear that you shouldn't have two Oaths at once.

With regards to Armor of Faith and Sacred Covenant, we're in a tricky spot. Historically Avengers are big weapon users, which means strength. They are also no armor users, which means Dex, and traditionally use Wis and probably want that for casting. Combined with the frontliner want for Con this makes them very MAD. In the current situation Avengers are going to gravitate a bit towards Dex weapons which is not really what we want. Sacred Covenant is probably not workable so we have to kind of suck it up and deal with a 4 stat class.


Compensate a bit for the MAD with a d12 hit die. Avengers were traditionally quite bulky in 4e.
Armor of Faith is 10 + Dex + Wis, requires no armor and no shield
Add Bless to the spell list to help with accuracy a bit and further dampen the pain of MAD.
Give them Great Weapon Fighting Style (no choice, just foist it down their throats at 1st or 2nd level)
Give them Brutal Critical (like Barbarian and Half Orc) to encourage big weapons


This whole setup is kind of ham-handed but I'm not sure what else we can reasonably do. At least the four MAD stats are the best stats for saves.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-09, 12:15 PM
First, a word on Theme: adaptation vs creation.

It's not supposed to be a direct conversion, as the way melee fighters used their powers in 4e is entirely incompatible with any other edition. But more of a Flavor and Mechanics conversion, bringing over the core features (they're the only ones which reasonably can be be brought over) and then filling in with features that fit the avenger flavor and within 5e. Thematically the vengeance paladin is close but not there, playing the part of a spiteful individual blessed by the gods that still has time to do all the normal goody-two-shoes paladin things. It's mechanics lack as-well, it only gets to be an avenger once per short rest (so 2-3 times a day) and lacks the other things making it an avenger like it's armor abilities, extra mobility, and features designed around spiting their opponents.


Thankfully, there are other options: you can add bonus dice of radiant or necrotic damage, you can increase the critical threat range, you could get Sneak Attack against this target, you can attack as a reaction on this target when it attacks you, you can make one additional attack against this target when you take the Attack action, and so on. Plenty of non-advantage options.

Hell, you could give a list of all these suggestions above as minor vows which augment this ability, and let the player pick from among them at character creation like invocations. It's like a customizable sneak attack.

This seems interesting, I'll think on this and put it in if there's space.


Armor of Faith
I would stick with tradition and make this 10 + Dex + Wis and give the class light armor.

The unarmored defense would be more streamlined, but then I'm worried it will get too reliant on just one stat. 13+Dex isn't as wimpy as it might sound starting at 15-16 and getting up to 18, the equivalent of plate without the debuffs.


Moreover, I don't get the sense that this class should be thematically unarmored. It's closest in theme to a rogue, right? Follow the rogue as a template here.

The avenger being unarmored is not arguable, The avenger lives by it's faith in it's deity, It's faith drives it forward, and it's faith will protect it from harm, not some cloth or metal whose allegiance is fleeting and merely gets in the way.


Sacred Covenant
Boy, do I have a problem with this.

Boy do I know. This is the reason I stripped it down to brass tacks, to figure this dilemma out. With Sacred covenant it's doing something outside of the norm and conflicting with current rules. Without it the class becomes 4 stat reliant practically dying via MAD. Some middle ground or new mechanic need to be found to compensate (And no the avenger won't just use finesse weapons, he ain't no pansy). Anything from a different way to make attacks to some sort of workable class rule. Just something.


You can't just use Wisdom in place of a physical ability score like it's a cantrip!

All things considered why not? It fits thematically and provides a new look on melee combat. Once the multiclass issue is sorted out what problem would remain?

If skills and saves are concerned then let's look at the monk who replaces Dex for Str, Getting better saves and many more usable skills like stealth and acrobatics than if he had stuck to Str.


Like, for argument's sake, if you have two poisons in your system which reduce your Strength to 7 and your Dexterity to 7, you can somehow perform in combat completely unimpeded. Moreover, you can outdamage a barbarian using Strength weapons after dumping your Strength score!

After dropping str and dex to 7 his AC would plumet to 13 and anything bigger than a house-cat would hit him consistently, the weight of his gear would encumber the avenger If he was carrying any more than the bare essentials, and his saves would crumble and fail. And by no means would the avenger out-damage a raging Barbarian.

JNAProductions
2016-06-09, 12:22 PM
Just popping in to remind you-this is based on Warlock casting, which is full casting. Balance around that.

Giegue
2016-06-09, 01:00 PM
For Sacred Covenant why not just have it use dex in place of str(instead of wis in place of strength). I'm not sure how balanced this would be, but as a VERY rough (and likely broken) idea maybe try a more balanced version of this....

Sacred Covenant

Starting at 1st level, you bond with your deity allows you to use your natural grace in place of your brute strength when weilding two-handed weapons. When you make an attack or damage roll with a two-handed weapon, you may treat that weapon as having the finesse property if it does not already have it. If you choose to do this, it's base damage die is reduced to a d8 from it's standard base damage die. At 5th level and again at 11th level, the size of this die increases: at 5th level it becomes a d10 and at 11th level it becomes a d12. If you ever take a level in a class other than Avenger your sacred covenant is broken and you lose the benefits of this feature.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-09, 02:46 PM
With regards to Oath of Enmity, I think you should work it like this:

Oath of Enmity
Starting at 1st level, your years of piety have granted you the ability to mark a creature as an enemy of your god. As a bonus action on your turn you may choose one creature within 30 feet of you as the subject of your Oath, as long as you don't have one already. Your Oath of Enmity lasts until the target is unconscious or dead, or until you choose to end it (no action). Once you have used this feature a number of times as shown on the Avenger table you must complete a short or long rest before you can use it again.

Attacks against your Oath of Enmity deal radiant damage instead of normal weapon damage.
When no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you, attacks against your Oath of Enmity have advantage.


I lifted the advantage condition off of the Rakish Audacity Rogue feature, since it is already vetted for 5e and similar to the old Avenger rule. Since you use the Barb rage table for # of Oaths I think you should operate on Long Rests like they do. I also made clear that you shouldn't have two Oaths at once.


Thanks for the wording fix. This does look better though I might make the radiant damage optional. The edition of that old rule feels a little nasty. But I suppose it's a more dedicated conversion now. On the topic of uses it's supposed to be a short rest recharge. I just used the Barb table because it was there. The avenger would need more uses of it's feature than a Barb because it's Oath ends when it's target dies, whereas the Rage continues on. Also the Oath isn't as dramatic as a barbarian's rage. The number of uses can be changed at will with no problems if need be.


With regards to Armor of Faith and Sacred Covenant, we're in a tricky spot. Historically Avengers are big weapon users, which means strength. They are also no armor users, which means Dex, and traditionally use Wis and probably want that for casting. Combined with the frontliner want for Con this makes them very MAD. In the current situation Avengers are going to gravitate a bit towards Dex weapons which is not really what we want. Sacred Covenant is probably not workable so we have to kind of suck it up and deal with a 4 stat class.


Compensate a bit for the MAD with a d12 hit die. Avengers were traditionally quite bulky in 4e.
Armor of Faith is 10 + Dex + Wis, requires no armor and no shield
Add Bless to the spell list to help with accuracy a bit and further dampen the pain of MAD.
Give them Great Weapon Fighting Style (no choice, just foist it down their throats at 1st or 2nd level)
Give them Brutal Critical (like Barbarian and Half Orc) to encourage big weapons


This whole setup is kind of ham-handed but I'm not sure what else we can reasonably do. At least the four MAD stats are the best stats for saves.

All of these are good ideas but I want to run something by you, what about:

Angelic Fortitude

Through rites and rituals your god has bolstered your resilience. Starting at 1st/2nd level the amount of health you gain per level is equal to 1d10 + Your Con Mod. + You Wis. Mod. Per avenger level. The total Between your Con and Wis mods may be no larger than 5 per level.

This needs some re-wording but it would remove the need for Con, making it a Str-Wis-Dex Class and Fix the mad issue. Also because it's per Avenger level it couldn't be abused via multi-class.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-09, 02:59 PM
Just popping in to remind you-this is based on Warlock casting, which is full casting. Balance around that.

The spellcasting looks like a copy of the warlocks but it's quite dumbed down. The avenger gets it's 3rd level spells the same level the warlock gets it's 5th level spells. The avenger also doesn't gain 6-9 level spells, or have any more than 1-2 ranged spells. The warlock also derives most of it's damage form it's cantrips not it's spells, particularly eldritch blast which gets up to 4d10 + 20 with a range of 300. Fortunately the avenger doesn't have any cantrips either. Most of an avenger's spellcasting is supplemental of it's melee fighting and exploration.

Thanks for the concern though!

DeAnno
2016-06-09, 03:05 PM
Thanks for the wording fix. This does look better though I might make the radiant damage optional. The edition of that old rule feels a little nasty. But I suppose it's a more dedicated conversion now. On the topic of uses it's supposed to be a short rest recharge. I just used the Barb table because it was there. The avenger would need more uses of it's feature than a Barb because it's Oath ends when it's target dies, whereas the Rage continues on. Also the Oath isn't as dramatic as a barbarian's rage. The number of uses can be changed at will with no problems if need be.

Yeah, radiant damage should be optional. As for uses, if it's going to be short rest recharge with many (>2) uses per short rest, I think it should just be at will, but only one at once, like the old ability. Maybe a wording change to:

Oath of Enmity
Starting at 1st level, your years of piety have granted you the ability to mark a creature as an enemy of your god. As a bonus action on your turn you may choose one creature within 30 feet of you as the subject of your Oath, as long as you don't have one already. Your Oath of Enmity lasts until the target is unconscious or dead, or until you choose to end it as an action.

Attacks against your Oath of Enmity may deal radiant damage instead of normal weapon damage, at your option.
When no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you, attacks against your Oath of Enmity have advantage.


This way it's awkward (but not impossibly so) to switch it around in combat since it eats a whole action to end it without dropping somebody. Refreshing it out of combat won't be problematic at all. Oath still seems a little light on features, but later features and subclasses could add more ribbons or semi-ribbons to it.


All of these are good ideas but I want to run something by you, what about:

Angelic Fortitude

Through rites and rituals your god has bolstered your resilience. Starting at 1st/2nd level the amount of health you gain per level is equal to 1d10 + Your Con Mod. + You Wis. Mod. Per avenger level. The total Between your Con and Wis mods may be no larger than 5 per level.

This needs some re-wording but it would remove the need for Con, making it a Str-Wis-Dex Class and Fix the mad issue. Also because it's per Avenger level it couldn't be abused via multi-class.

I think 1d10 + Con + Wis is good, and you shouldn't even bother capping it. It's not really going to come up enough to be problematic, and if it does it doesn't really make sense to penalize players for a high con. You could just phrase it like:

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d10 per avenger level
Hit Points at 1st Levei: 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier per avenger level after 1st

And make it a class feature at first level to draw attention to it. They could take or leave Bless now, the downside of Bless is it's really optimal so it'll eat a lot of their slots and actions.

Spells are meant to refresh like a Warlock's right? I don't see anything saying that but it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-09, 07:59 PM
For Sacred Covenant why not just have it use dex in place of str(instead of wis in place of strength). I'm not sure how balanced this would be, but as a VERY rough (and likely broken) idea maybe try a more balanced version of this....

Sacred Covenant

Starting at 1st level, you bond with your deity allows you to use your natural grace in place of your brute strength when weilding two-handed weapons. When you make an attack or damage roll with a two-handed weapon, you may treat that weapon as having the finesse property if it does not already have it. If you choose to do this, it's base damage die is reduced to a d8 from it's standard base damage die. At 5th level and again at 11th level, the size of this die increases: at 5th level it becomes a d10 and at 11th level it becomes a d12. If you ever take a level in a class other than Avenger your sacred covenant is broken and you lose the benefits of this feature.

Thanks for the feed back but we've decided on using Str to make attacks and allowing the avenger to add their Wis to life per level. If I could push your efforts in a different direction, could you come up with an idea to incentivize two-handed weapons?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-09, 08:12 PM
Yeah, radiant damage should be optional. As for uses, if it's going to be short rest recharge with many (>2) uses per short rest, I think it should just be at will, but only one at once, like the old ability. Maybe a wording change to:

Oath of Enmity
Starting at 1st level, your years of piety have granted you the ability to mark a creature as an enemy of your god. As a bonus action on your turn you may choose one creature within 30 feet of you as the subject of your Oath, as long as you don't have one already. Your Oath of Enmity lasts until the target is unconscious or dead, or until you choose to end it as an action.

Attacks against your Oath of Enmity may deal radiant damage instead of normal weapon damage, at your option.
When no creature other than your target is within 5 feet of you, attacks against your Oath of Enmity have advantage.


This way it's awkward (but not impossibly so) to switch it around in combat since it eats a whole action to end it without dropping somebody. Refreshing it out of combat won't be problematic at all. Oath still seems a little light on features, but later features and subclasses could add more ribbons or semi-ribbons to it.

Agreed on the at-will usage, and changed to allow radiant, I like the action to drop, it makes the choice of who to mark feel more important.


I think 1d10 + Con + Wis is good, and you shouldn't even bother capping it. It's not really going to come up enough to be problematic, and if it does it doesn't really make sense to penalize players for a high con. You could just phrase it like:

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d10 per avenger level
Hit Points at 1st Levei: 10 + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d10 (or 6) + your Constitution modifier + your Wisdom modifier per avenger level after 1st

And make it a class feature at first level to draw attention to it. They could take or leave Bless now, the downside of Bless is it's really optimal so it'll eat a lot of their slots and actions.

Spells are meant to refresh like a Warlock's right? I don't see anything saying that but it wouldn't make sense otherwise.

I wanted to cap it so that a player couldn't decide to pick up finesse weapons and then pump dex, wis, and con for alot of health.

And yes the casting is supposed to be per short rest, I'll double check that it's written in the spellcasting ability.

Next we need to incentivize two-handed weapon usage, for now I'll make it so OoE only works with strength weapons.

How's this sound for a second level ability?

Blade of Zeal
Starting at 2nd level, whenever you make an attack with advantage because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice rolls have the same roll, unless both rolls are a one. When you score a critical hit in this fashion you deal extra radiant damage equal to your avenger level.

barbecube
2016-06-09, 10:38 PM
I think between Blade of Zeal, the no-shield restriction, and Oath of Enmity, you have effectively narrowed down the weapon choices avengers can use to two-handers with soft constraints. I don't see a problem with people making the suboptimal choice of TWF or fighting one-handed as long as two-handers are the best scenario.

But this raises a little problem—with both hands full, the avenger can't use their spellcasting as effectively (unless you've curated the spell list to strictly verbal spells, I didn't check.) That means there either needs to be a class feature that emulates the hands-full casting ability of War Caster, or avengers that want to use their (admittedly modest) spells will fall back on versatile weapons and/or using a lot of object interactions instead of two-handers.

DeAnno
2016-06-09, 11:39 PM
I wanted to cap it so that a player couldn't decide to pick up finesse weapons and then pump dex, wis, and con for alot of health.

I'm a little concerned someone will get Wis 22 by magic items or something and be cheated out of the full effect. Maybe Wis should just replace Con in their HP computation? Might want to have their Hit Dice add it too (or instead) when rolled. Con will still be useful for Constitution saves and multiclass levels, but interestingly it sort of becomes an Avenger dump stat. Since nobody dumps con, this is kind of cool.


Next we need to incentivize two-handed weapon usage, for now I'll make it so OoE only works with strength weapons.

How's this sound for a second level ability?

Blade of Zeal
Starting at 2nd level, whenever you make an attack with advantage because of your oath of enmity, you score a critical hit if both dice rolls have the same roll, unless both rolls are a one. When you score a critical hit in this fashion you deal extra radiant damage equal to your avenger level.

I think you mean the attack automatically hits and scores a critical hit. You have to say it automatically hits if you mean that, and if you don't it will just miss on double-1s anyway. I like the ability as a nice incentive, as Avengers also have a proud history of crit fishing and this double-roll-crit was a key ability in their best native paragon path.

Professor Gnoll
2016-06-10, 12:39 AM
I think between Blade of Zeal, the no-shield restriction, and Oath of Enmity, you have effectively narrowed down the weapon choices avengers can use to two-handers with soft constraints. I don't see a problem with people making the suboptimal choice of TWF or fighting one-handed as long as two-handers are the best scenario.

But this raises a little problem—with both hands full, the avenger can't use their spellcasting as effectively (unless you've curated the spell list to strictly verbal spells, I didn't check.) That means there either needs to be a class feature that emulates the hands-full casting ability of War Caster, or avengers that want to use their (admittedly modest) spells will fall back on versatile weapons and/or using a lot of object interactions instead of two-handers.
Actually, you can cast spells with somatic components while using a two-handed weapon. The PHB errata states:

Two-Handed (p. 147). This property is relevant only when you attack with the weapon, not when you simply hold it.
So you can hold it in one hand and use the other to cast, which makes perfect sense.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-10, 06:34 AM
Actually, you can cast spells with somatic components while using a two-handed weapon. The PHB errata states:

Well that's good to know, thanks for finding that out, only one thing left before we really start on class features.

How do we deal with the potential of a Rouge/Avenger Multiclass?

RakiReborn
2016-06-10, 06:44 AM
If you just write it as 'when you attack with a 2h weapon, you may use dex instead of str for the attack and damage rolls. If you do, the damage die changes to 1d8.' or something in those words, it shouldnt be a problem. SA doesnt trigger, as the weapon isnt finesse.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-10, 11:40 AM
If you just write it as 'when you attack with a 2h weapon, you may use dex instead of str for the attack and damage rolls. If you do, the damage die changes to 1d8.' or something in those words, it shouldnt be a problem. SA doesnt trigger, as the weapon isnt finesse.

Actually by making it so that oath could only be used with strength weapons we already eliminated the use of Sneak Attack as it can only be used with finesse weapons.

Thanks though!

Now it's time to decide what levels the sub classes will go at.

Amnoriath
2016-06-10, 05:14 PM
The spellcasting looks like a copy of the warlocks but it's quite dumbed down. The avenger gets it's 3rd level spells the same level the warlock gets it's 5th level spells. The avenger also doesn't gain 6-9 level spells, or have any more than 1-2 ranged spells. The warlock also derives most of it's damage form it's cantrips not it's spells, particularly eldritch blast which gets up to 4d10 + 20 with a range of 300. Fortunately the avenger doesn't have any cantrips either. Most of an avenger's spellcasting is supplemental of it's melee fighting and exploration.

Thanks for the concern though!
True, this doesn't have Mystic Arcanum and your Slot level is slowed but others that have used this reasoning before not realizing what they are like in comparsion to Half-casters. Half-casters only have 2 5th level spells per long rest, yours has 4 per short or long rest.

barbecube
2016-06-10, 09:07 PM
True, this doesn't have Mystic Arcanum and your Slot level is slowed but others that have used this reasoning before not realizing what they are like in comparsion to Half-casters. Half-casters only have 2 5th level spells per long rest, yours has 4 per short or long rest.So do you have a solution? We could just revert to basic half-casting, but I find that unsatisfying.

Instead I propose that the Avenger has a reduced, leveled spell slot pool like a half-caster's (but with fewer slots at each level) and these slots refresh at short rests. Put some math behind it and I imagine we can work out a progression that is comparable to half-caster capability.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-10, 09:17 PM
So do you have a solution? We could just revert to basic half-casting, but I find that unsatisfying.

Yes, the avenger's relationship to there god is much more akin to a warlock than a paladin's is so warlock casting feels better, I'll crunch some numbers and see what happens.

Edit:

Math:



Assuming party takes 2 short rests per day
Comparison will be between Avenger and Paladin
For simplicity sake all spells hit and deal max damage
Math will be divided into the 4 tiers and show possible spells damage per day.
Both classes will spend all 1st level spell slots on thunderous smite, 2nd level on Branding smite, 3rd on Blinding smite, 4th on staggering smite, and 5th on destructive smite.


Note: This does not take into account the rider effects of any of these spells, merely the maximum raw damage possible.

Tier 1 (Level 4)

Avenger: Casts Thunderous Smite 6 times

6*2d6(12) = 72 Damage

Paladin: Casts Thunderous Smite 3 times

3*2d6(12) = 36 Damage

Results: Avenger comes out of the gate swinging twice as hard as the paladin, let's see if this holds up.

Tier 2 (Level 10)

Avenger: Casts Blinding Smite 6 times

6*3d8(24) = 144 Damage

Paladin: Casts Thunderous Smite 4 times, Branding Smite 3 times, and Blinding Smite 2 times

4*2d6(12) = 48
3*2d6(12) = 36
2*3d8(24) = 48

Total = 132

Results: Paladin is now just below the avenger in damage output, let's see if this holds up

Tier 3 (Level 16)

Avenger: Casts Staggering Smite 9 times

9*4d6(24) = 216 Damage

Paladin: Casts Thunderous Smite 4 times, Branding Smite 3 times, and Blinding Smite 3 times, and Staggering Smite 2 times

4*2d6(12) = 48
3*2d6(12) = 36
3*3d8(24) = 72
2*4d6(24) = 48

Total = 206

Results: Trend stays consistent, paladin is just under the avenger.


Tier 4 (Level 20)

Avenger: Casts Destructive Smite 12 times

12*10d6(60) = 720 Damage (Ow...)

Paladin: Casts Thunderous Smite 4 times, Branding Smite 3 times, and Blinding Smite 3 times, Staggering Smite 3 times, and Destructive Smite 2 times.

4*2d6(12) = 48
3*2d6(12) = 36
3*3d8(24) = 72
3*4d6(24) = 72
2*10d6(60) = 120

Total = 348

Results: Yup, nerfing spellcasting.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-10, 10:22 PM
So do you have a solution? We could just revert to basic half-casting, but I find that unsatisfying.

Instead I propose that the Avenger has a reduced, leveled spell slot pool like a half-caster's (but with fewer slots at each level) and these slots refresh at short rests. Put some math behind it and I imagine we can work out a progression that is comparable to half-caster capability.

I ran the math in my other reply and spellcasting definitely needs some nerfing, any ideas?

DeAnno
2016-06-11, 12:56 AM
I think the main issue is they get as many slots as the Warlock does, despite being a half caster. We probably want to nerf the slot progression and leave the level progression alone. How much to do that is... tricky. Pure math would suggest 1 slot at level 2, 2 slots at level 3, and never increasing it again. This is obviously a little weird and unsatisfying. Throwing a spitball at the wall, I would say maybe 1 slot from 2-8, 2 slots from 9-16, and 3 slots from 17-20. This way they get new slots with access to 3rd and 5th level spells, and you could probably give them "dead levels" at 9 and 17 the same way the Ranger/Paladin has them without feeling too bad. You might stylistically want a deadish level at 13 too, but I'm unsure what you would stealthily give them there.

You could also abandon short rest half-casting and do invocations instead.

barbecube
2016-06-11, 02:55 AM
I did some math, graphed out damage based on your values and used your 2 short rests/day assumption, and this is the best I got to matching paladin spell damage output:



Level
# of Slots
Slot Level
Holy Mystery


1
0
--
--


2
1
1
--


3
1
1
--


4
2
1
--


5
2
2
--


6
2
2
--


7
2
2
--


8
2
2
--


9
2
3
--


10
2
3
--


11
2
3
--


12
2
3
--


13
2
4
--


14
3
4
--


15
3
4
--


16
3
4
--


17
3
4*
Long Rest


18
3
4*
Long Rest


19
3
4*
Short Rest


20
3
4*
Short Rest



You can see my calculations here: Paladin / Avenger Casting Table (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16s97o4JhWL9nRxCOfr6vphEvG32TU9NDsLeZL-d3MfU/edit?usp=sharing)

And I'll explain—"Holy Mystery" allows you to convert one of your spell slots into a higher-level slot (here, into a fifth-level slot) once per whatever type of rest. It's sort of a substitute for Mystic Arcanum but it doesn't induce quite as dramatic a power spike.

So with this setup the paladin and avenger spell damage curves are relatively close most of the time, although each does exceed the other at various points. The paladin comes out on top with 348 vs 324 damage, which I think isn't too bad a disparity, and I don't see any huge gaps between their power levels anywhere in the table.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-11, 08:40 AM
I did some math, graphed out damage based on your values and used your 2 short rests/day assumption, and this is the best I got to matching paladin spell damage output:

Thanks for all the work you put into this, this is a really creative solution to it. I think it will work admirably. I'll put it in right away, now we just need a better name for it. (No offense)

sajro
2016-06-11, 02:53 PM
Is this supposed to replace the Vengeance Paladin?

Because if not I believe it might be a good idea to rename "Oath of Enmity" as not to confuse any uses of the class.

And for the Holy Mystery, I though that maybe Holy Inspiration, Zealous Inspiration or something along those lines would be fitting. As I see it as the character being inspired by his god to cast a more powerful spell than normally possible.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-11, 03:41 PM
Is this supposed to replace the Vengeance Paladin?

Short Answer:
Basically, yeah.

Long Answer:
The avenger was my favorite 4e class so when I switched over to 5e I was excited to find that the avenger was included (In a way) but after playing the Vengeace Pally it just didn't feel the same, Heavy armor, Charisma, and all these friendly auras just weren't what an avenger did.


Because if not I believe it might be a good idea to rename "Oath of Enmity" as not to confuse any uses of the class.

I would change it to Vow of Enmity but that one is taken too, and I don't know of any other context relevant words to go in front of "Enmity"

That's also what it was called in 4e.


And for the Holy Mystery, I though that maybe Holy Inspiration, Zealous Inspiration or something along those lines would be fitting. As I see it as the character being inspired by his god to cast a more powerful spell than normally possible.

I like Holy Inspiration, thanks!

sajro
2016-06-11, 03:50 PM
Ahhh I see the problem with the name then, and I fully understand the desire to keep the name.
If you want to change the name or add an alternative you could think about changing "Enmity" to "Malice", "Hatred", "Animosity" or even "Acrimony"

And happy to be of help. :)

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-11, 03:56 PM
Ahhh I see the problem with the name then, and I fully understand the desire to keep the name.
If you want to change the name or add an alternative you could think about changing "Enmity" to "Malice", "Hatred", "Animosity" or even "Acrimony"

I think I'll keep the name for now, if need be "Oath of Malice" sounds pretty sweet.

Thanks again!

Any ideas on some class features?

barbecube
2016-06-11, 10:07 PM
I feel like it's a good time to talk about exploration/interaction features at this point, because the main class's combat features are mostly pinned down. Do these features represent a relationship with the church or god? Or are they there to help seek out the target? Let's brainstorm.

Here are some ideas I had:

- Some kind of tracking ability
- Ritual divinations
- Contacts in the clergy
- Improved Investigation/Intimidation skills

I don't know where to go from there necessarily.

Holy Inspiration (good name change!) should specify that at this level you can also learn 5th level spells or something, otherwise you'll just end up casting 4th level spells with a powered up slot.

sajro
2016-06-12, 03:33 AM
I believe the same as barbecube that some tracking ability to either track your enmity target or just enemies of the church might be a good idea.
Also an ability at 11th level to increase combat damage is fitting. Fighter's get extra attack, paladins +1d8 damage. And this class seems to miss something that scales its damage through the game. This could as it seems based on the original Avenger be tied to the three subclasses to deal bonus damage based on certain circuimstances?

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-12, 11:19 AM
I feel like it's a good time to talk about exploration/interaction features at this point, because the main class's combat features are mostly pinned down. Do these features represent a relationship with the church or god? Or are they there to help seek out the target? Let's brainstorm.

Here are some ideas I had:

Okay let's do it


- Some kind of tracking ability

I think this should be delegated to the Pursuit subclass, as it is their thing, but how about this?

Nowhere to Hide
Starting at 15th level As an action you may speak the name of any creature that you have seen, it must be their real name, upon speaking the name they become marked by your oath of enmity, in addition to it's normal effects you know the direction and distance to that creature if it is on the same plane as you, if not you know the name of the plane which it's on but nothing else.


- Ritual divinations

Like casting certain spells not on the avenger spell list, only as rituals?
Levels 6, 10, 14, and 18 are open so we just need to figure out which one it would fit into best.


- Contacts in the clergy

Like thieves contacts? It's pretty easy to spot a priest or church a little less easy to spot a criminal fence. Maybe a language like druidic? How about this as a second/third level feature?

Sacred Studies
Starting at 2nd/3rd level you gain proficiency in religion if you aren't already, if you already are proficient in religion then your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses religion.
In addition your studies in the ancient texts have made you learned in the languages in which they are written, you learn one language from the following list, Supernal, Infernal, or Sylvan.


- Improved Investigation/Intimidation skills

This could be added as part of a package, avengers got lots of things that made them more angelic, so other things like the ability to spot a lier, and not need food water and air could be added in like an "Angelic Body" feature.


I don't know where to go from there necessarily.

Not a problem, these are some good starts just read over my ideas and tell me what you think


Holy Inspiration (good name change!) should specify that at this level you can also learn 5th level spells or something, otherwise you'll just end up casting 4th level spells with a powered up slot.

Done, thanks for the help.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-12, 12:20 PM
I believe the same as barbecube that some tracking ability to either track your enmity target or just enemies of the church might be a good idea.
Also an ability at 11th level to increase combat damage is fitting. Fighter's get extra attack, paladins +1d8 damage. And this class seems to miss something that scales its damage through the game. This could as it seems based on the original Avenger be tied to the three subclasses to deal bonus damage based on certain circuimstances?

I haven't decided what I'm going to do for their 11th level feature, making it sub-class based would be interesting and unique, I'll work on it, if you wanna draft somethong up I'd really appreciate it.

barbecube
2016-06-12, 02:11 PM
If the 11th level damage feature is based on the subclass, then we should pin down the earlier level subclass features first, maybe. I looked back at the 4e censures and they are not ideal for 5e, but I think we can echo them in spirit without having to emulate them directly in mechanics. Here's an idea. All of these features use your reaction so that they are equal in action economy, but I could see that changing if necessary.

Censure of Pursuit
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, you become an inescapable agent of vengeance for your deity. When your oath of enmity target moves away from you, you can use your reaction to funnel power from your deity. If you do, you gain a 1d8 damage bonus against that target until the end of your turn.

(At 11th and 18th (or whatever) levels, this bonus damage increases by 1d8? Maybe this is a place for a damage increase but it's pretty unreliable. However it does scale with extra attacks as well. So it's a decent chunk of damage if you can trigger it.)

Censure of Retribution
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, your deity empowers you with strength in exchange for sacrifice. When a creature other than your oath of enmity target hits you, you can use your reaction to turn this suffering into power. If you do, you gain a 1d8 damage bonus against your oath of enmity target until the end of your turn.

(Same comments about damage scaling.)

Censure of Unity
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, you learn to draw strength from your allies. When another creature hits your oath of enmity target with an attack, you can use your reaction to draw the strength of that attack into yourself. If you do, you gain a 1d8 damage bonus against your oath of enmity target until the end of your turn.

(Scaling again.)

I don't know without playtesting how these will play out, and Unity especially is tricky because of the positioning details needed to make it work, but hopefully they're not too complex. Obviously the dice they grant and the levels the features scale at can be adjusted.

Nowhere to Hide is a cool feature.

Sacred Studies is nice as well, I like the bonus language detail.

DeAnno
2016-06-12, 03:32 PM
That version of Pursuit is a little nonfunctional. You're essentially giving up an opportunity attack to deal damage now in order to deal damage later; it's often going to be a bad trade, and even when it's a good trade, it's not going to net very much extra damage over an OA.

barbecube
2016-06-12, 03:36 PM
That version of Pursuit is a little nonfunctional. You're essentially giving up an opportunity attack to deal damage now in order to deal damage later; it's often going to be a bad trade, and even when it's a good trade, it's not going to net very much extra damage over an OA.Hm, you're absolutely right.

What about this?

Censure of Pursuit
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, you become an inescapable agent of vengeance for your deity. When your oath of enmity target moves away from you, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed to follow it and make an opportunity attack. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. You add 1d8 bonus damage to that attack.

R.Shackleford
2016-06-12, 09:36 PM
Good Stuff
I like what you got, my only co tribution would be to say that you should use the Rogue chassis instead of the "warrior" chassis.

The avenger is more of a rogue than a fighter. Like If the basic devout was a cleric then the Paladin would be the fighter type and the Avenger would be the Rogue type.

The avenger is about movement, hard burst hits, sneaking around, light and maybe medium armor...

Just my 2cp.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-18, 01:22 PM
I like what you got, my only co tribution would be to say that you should use the Rogue chassis instead of the "warrior" chassis.

The avenger is more of a rogue than a fighter. Like If the basic devout was a cleric then the Paladin would be the fighter type and the Avenger would be the Rogue type.

The avenger is about movement, hard burst hits, sneaking around, light and maybe medium armor...

Just my 2cp.

Thanks for your input, but we just see the avenger in a slightly different way, while I agree that the avenger is sneaky, I see him as sneaky in a batman sort of way. Let me explain,

A rogue would go around sneaking after a guy to catch him in his moment of weakness and strike him where it hurts, then likely attempt to sneak away or use allies to distract his enemies. An avenger would sneak after a guy to get him alone and then use the surprise as an element of awe striking fear of his god into his foe, afterwards he doesn't flee or use cheap tactics, he singles out and dismantles a single foe at a time, sound familiar?

It's also hinted at in the manuals that he's more of a warrior then a rogue, as he shares almost the same starting health(literally just one point less) and health per level as a paladin. And while it is true that the striker tree of 4e contained the rogue, the barbarian was also a striker.

If it's any consolation the pursuit subclass is going to be a little sneakier than the rest, maybe.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-18, 01:45 PM
Hm, you're absolutely right.

What about this?

Censure of Pursuit
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, you become an inescapable agent of vengeance for your deity. When your oath of enmity target moves away from you, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed to follow it and make an opportunity attack. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. You add 1d8 bonus damage to that attack.

I'm loving what you guys are putting out but there's one small problem, as this class is a divine class the precedent is that it's first subclass feature is a channel divinity + subclass spell-list. I mean if you guys want to venture off the beaten path that's fine with me, we wold just need to be extra careful to remain within balance.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-18, 01:51 PM
Hm, you're absolutely right.

What about this?

Censure of Pursuit
At 3rd level when you choose this divine censure, you become an inescapable agent of vengeance for your deity. When your oath of enmity target moves away from you, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed to follow it and make an opportunity attack. This movement doesn't provoke opportunity attacks. You add 1d8 bonus damage to that attack.

I'm loving what you guys are putting out but there's one small problem, as this class is a divine class the precedent is that it's first subclass feature is a channel divinity + subclass spell-list. I mean if you guys want to venture off the beaten path that's fine with me, we wold just need to be extra careful to remain within balance.

I just had an idea, we could move these features to the each subclass's 11th level feature, like a defining damage buff for the class.

barbecube
2016-06-19, 10:30 AM
You're absolutely right, there's no good reason to flout the conventions of divine classes here, so we need subclass spell lists and CD features at level 3. I don't feel confident contributing spell lists myself, I can't hold all the spells in my head at once, so hopefully someone else is up for that. I would like to suggest simply adding spells-known at no cost since Avengers have very low spells known.

So I agree with pushing up the Censure features a few levels but 11th seems like a long time to wait for a defining feature. There's a slot open at 7th that could be used however, does that seem to work ok?

Either way, I guess then it's time to brainstorm some CDs. I don't have time to do full writeups of any right now but here are some bullet point ideas:

- maximize damage on an attack
- turning
- fright aura, affected creatures can't willingly enter the aura
- magic weapon
- friendly creatures get adv to attack your OoE target for a turn

DeAnno
2016-06-19, 11:30 AM
Maybe all Avengers could get a certain base CD and each subclass could get a specific one as well? I like the idea of maximizing damage on a weapon attack (against their Oath target?) for the one they all get.

Pursuit could get a CD that helps with mobility in combat. Perhaps teleportation as a move action. Retribution could maybe get some kind of damage mitigation. Unity would want something too, but I'm unsure what would be original and fitting. It's probably best to avoid straight damage, to avoid overlap with a general damage-maximizer CD.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-19, 01:48 PM
You're absolutely right, there's no good reason to flout the conventions of divine classes here, so we need subclass spell lists and CD features at level 3. I don't feel confident contributing spell lists myself, I can't hold all the spells in my head at once, so hopefully someone else is up for that. I would like to suggest simply adding spells-known at no cost since Avengers have very low spells known.

So I agree with pushing up the Censure features a few levels but 11th seems like a long time to wait for a defining feature. There's a slot open at 7th that could be used however, does that seem to work ok?

Either way, I guess then it's time to brainstorm some CDs. I don't have time to do full writeups of any right now but here are some bullet point ideas:

- maximize damage on an attack
- turning
- fright aura, affected creatures can't willingly enter the aura
- magic weapon
- friendly creatures get adv to attack your OoE target for a turn

7th level is open, but not for a major damage buff. I don't know the level-by-level damage output of each class (if anyone does, please tell) but a major damage feature would have to be at 11th level, if we put it at 7th it would have to be scaled down to 7th level strength. And for a feature that defines how each subclass deals it's damage I don't know if a 7th feature has enough room to fit that in.

As for the 3rd level features, I have some ideas (I used a few of yours) for for their CDs and I'll have some sort of spell lists up soon.

Pursuit:

On angels wings: Double move speed as well as increased swim, climb, and jump abilities.

Visage of the reaper: Frighten your oath target and force them to move away from you, prompting OAs.

Retribution:
Furious rebutall: As a reaction when hit with a critical, cause oath target to take some/all damage aswell.

River of life: Gain some temporary life regen. Or temp hp.

Unity:
Blessing of Unity: Extend the effects of your oath to your allies for a few rounds or just one ally for a minute.

Together as one: Cause allies to gain a temp ac boost for each adjacent ally.

How do these sound?

barbecube
2016-06-21, 12:51 PM
I think those sound pretty good! After comparing with the fighter and paladin I also get why we don't necessarily want a damage feature at level 7, so yeah, let's lock down CDs.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-21, 02:51 PM
I think those sound pretty good! After comparing with the fighter and paladin I also get why we don't necessarily want a damage feature at level 7, so yeah, let's lock down CDs.

I've created a spell list for the Pursuit and Retribution subclasses and am about to begin refining those CD's

What I think this class needs is some sort of survivability feature, probably for level 3 or 6, the paladin get's "Lay on hands" the fighter gets "Second wind" monk gets "Deflect missile" the avenger needs something like that too.

And for each subclass's 7th level ability I've some ideas:

Pursuit:

Nowhere to Run
Starting at 7th level, Whenever you successfully hit your oath of enmity target with an opportunity, you may move up to your speed after your target, staying adjacent to the target as far as able.

(Basically the pally's relentless avenger but full speed)

Retribution:

Oath of Malice
At 7th level you can channel you god's anger to frighten your oath of enmity target. As a reaction to being hit by your oath target you may force that creature to roll a Wisdom saving throw, it must succeed a DC equal to your avenger spell save DC or be frightened of you for one minute. The creature may reroll the saving throw at the end of each of it's turns. If a creatures succeeds on it's saving throw you may not use this feature on that creature for 24 hours.

Unity:

No idea yet, unity wasn't really my favorite 4e subclass.

DeAnno
2016-06-22, 04:57 AM
I've created a spell list for the Pursuit and Retribution subclasses and am about to begin refining those CD's

What I think this class needs is some sort of survivability feature, probably for level 3 or 6

Maybe:

"When you drop your Oath target with a melee attack, heal damage equal to half as much as your attack dealt, rounded down."

barbecube
2016-06-25, 01:47 PM
I like how you were able to capture the avenger's offensive focus in a survival feature. Nice.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-25, 04:17 PM
Maybe:

"When you drop your Oath target with a melee attack, heal damage equal to half as much as your attack dealt, rounded down."

I like it, just put it in under level 6 as "Renewing Strike" I'll run some numbers on it but for now it looks really good.

FenrirHatiSkoll
2016-06-25, 04:18 PM
I like how you were able to capture the avenger's offensive focus in a survival feature. Nice.

Agreed, it reminds me of the warlock ability that I really liked.