PDA

View Full Version : Balancing the Radiant Servant of Pelor



oloknotwise
2007-06-28, 01:27 PM
My DM and I are trying to balance out the overpowered Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC, but as of now we are kind of stumped. That is why we look to the experts online.

He really wants to take out some caster levels, but since I am the only spellcaster in the ENTIRE group (except for our arcane archer who has only one level or sorcerer), a hit to spellcasting would be a problem.

From what I got from him, he does not like the empowered healing and maximized healing. He has said that the PrC gets everything that a cleric gets and more, which is true, and the things are too powerful (he failed to realize that I took a hit die penalty).

My role in the party is basically healing and casting. I have a decent AC, but I rarely find myself entering melee combat at at the first chance. Compared to the other PCs, I have the lowest hit rate (unless I cast Righteous Might). I have a VERY poor dex, and sneaking around (which turns out to be a large part of his campaigns) doesn't really work for me. As for turning undead, our DM does not like using undead because he finds them to be too much of a hassle for him to run. For the first six levels of the campaign, we have never once encountered an undead enemy, and even now that's pretty rare (I do not recall the last time I even used a turning attempt).

Basically, I realize that in some areas, the RoSP is overpowered, but compared to the other PCs, I often find myself overshadowed or set to two (commonly one) role.

A hit to BAB progression and loss of the martial weapon proficiency (why is that there in the first place?) would not be a great hindrance to me, but it limits my options when I enter combat.

Any suggestions?

valadil
2007-06-28, 01:43 PM
Are you empower/maximizing all healing or just those cast as domain spells? It's just supposed to be domain spells, which cuts down the radiant servant quite a bit ... until players realize that with domain spontaneity they can convert prepped spells into domain spells, thus gaining empower/max for the low, low price of one turning attempt. I'd block the latter usage, but still normal domain heals (meaning one per day per spell level) get the bonus.

oloknotwise
2007-06-28, 01:46 PM
Are you empower/maximizing all healing or just those cast as domain spells? It's just supposed to be domain spells, which cuts down the radiant servant quite a bit ... until players realize that with domain spontaneity they can convert prepped spells into domain spells, thus gaining empower/max for the low, low price of one turning attempt. I'd block the latter usage, but still normal domain heals (meaning one per day per spell level) get the bonus.

The Empowered has only been applied to my Domain spells. I made that clear to my DM when I first took the class because he thought it applied to all spells.

Jasdoif
2007-06-28, 02:16 PM
Have you mentioned to him that a metamagic rod of empower spell or two (or three once you hit the higher levels) can entirely replace the Empowered Healing ability, if you're only allowed to use it with spells prepared in your domain slot? The healing boosts are really just a convenience feature in this case.

MandibleBones
2007-06-28, 03:09 PM
From what I got from him, he does not like the empowered healing and maximized healing

Two feats (empower spell, maximize spell) and some extra time spent casting will apply this to ALL your spontaneously-cast healing spells - as a normal cleric. I don't see why taking X levels of a PrC to do the same thing you normally do a little bit faster on SOME of your spells is overpowered.


He has said that the PrC gets everything that a cleric gets and more, which is true

Yes, but so does every other full-casting Cleric PrC. Next you'll be telling me Mystic Theurge is overpowered.

I argue that, for a full-casting Cleric PrC, RSoP ISN'T overpowered - all it really lets you do is heal people better and kill undead better. It's rather focused, in my opinion.

Kellus
2007-06-28, 03:22 PM
Comparing the Radiant Servant of Pelor to the Mystic Theurge is ridiculous. The Servant maintains full caster levels, while the Theurge gives up, what is it, three levels of both divine and arcane?

The Radiant Servant gets all class features of the Cleric, additional proficiencies, full spellcasting progression, two good saves, and moderate BAB. He gives up an average of one HP every level, for a total of ten hit points lost over the course of his career. In exchange, he gets access to up to nine empowered/maximized/empowered and maximized healing spells every day, as well as a slew of class features which improve turning and light-based spells.

As the DM (I'm in the same campaign) quite rightly pointed out, there's no reason for a NG cleric of Pelor NOT to take this class. Even though prestige classes are supposed to be more powerful than regular classes, a NG cleric of Pelor loses NOTHING through this class, but gains lots.

MandibleBones
2007-06-28, 03:44 PM
I admit, MT was probably the worst of all possible examples.

But the average cleric loses nothing except HP (and MAYBE turn undead) from taking levels in ANY full-casting prestige class - Contemplative, Divine Oracle, and there are others. Radiant Servent gets some cool stuff, and admittedly there's no reason for a Pelorite to NOT want to take it - unless said Pelorite is CG, N or LG.

But you're talking about a class that caters to a fairly specific subset of the world, and makes them better at what they're supposed to be the best at anyway.

How is this bad?

DreadArchon
2007-06-28, 03:45 PM
As the DM (I'm in the same campaign) quite rightly pointed out, there's no reason for a NG cleric of Pelor NOT to take this class. Even though prestige classes are supposed to be more powerful than regular classes, a NG cleric of Pelor loses NOTHING through this class, but gains lots.
Meh, not a big deal. You still have to meet the prerequisites, which cuts out basically every possible Cleric build that's not specifically going for RSoP.

I mean, even were I feeling powergamey, I couldn't see myself ever taking this PrC. I don't like the direction it railroads you.

martyboy74
2007-06-28, 03:45 PM
The only thing that turning is really useful for is [Divine] Feats and the RKV, and Extra Turning is a better way to get extra attempts. The extra healing...well, being heal-bot isn't why the clerics broken. Name me one light-based spell on the cleric list that the RSoP's abilities break.

Droodle
2007-06-28, 03:50 PM
The Radiant Servant gets all class features of the Cleric, additional proficiencies, full spellcasting progression, two good saves, and moderate BAB. He gives up an average of one HP every level, for a total of ten hit points lost over the course of his career. In exchange, he gets access to up to nine empowered/maximized/empowered and maximized healing spells every day, as well as a slew of class features which improve turning and light-based spells.
A couple of additional proficiencies are really no big deal, Clerics already get two good saves and a moderate BAB, and you have to make some pretty non-optimal feat, domain, and skill choices just to qualify for the class. What he gains isn't really going to make him all that much more powerful in combat (especially since he's not going to be fighting a lot of undead), but it will improve the party's survival by making him a better healer.

For balance, you could give him weak fortitude saves to go with his diminished hit-points, but that's all I'd do (and I think even that is going too far). If you decide not to allow the class at all, you should at least allow him to retrain his domains over to something more useful. I agree that the RSoP is overpowered......but no more overpowered than your standard Cleric.

Jasdoif
2007-06-28, 04:03 PM
I find Radiant Servant of Pelor to be a great idea. When you don't restrict the empowered/maximize healing to the domain slot, at least.

RSoP gets improved healing spells, so to make the best use of class features a RSoP is better off casting healing spells to benefit other party members then, say...casting only self-buffs and utterly outshining the party. (This really loses viability when you can only use it with domain-prepared slots.)

And undead are immune to lots of things, which can really hamper rogues and a number of those cool wizard spells. With Greater Turning, a RSoP can keep them from expending excessive resources on them.

And the light improvement...well, light's always handy for those characters that can't see in the dark.


Basically, Radiant Servant of Pelor turns a cleric into a highly-effective party aiding character. I'm quite sure there are better PrCs for the self-serving cleric out there, anyway.

MeklorIlavator
2007-06-28, 04:03 PM
You could drop his BAB down to 1/2, because if he's supposed to be a healer, making him better at killing things is not in complete agreement with the flavor.

Piccamo
2007-06-28, 04:08 PM
If you really want to "balance" the RSoP just change its BAB to full, change its HD to d10, give it only a good Fort Save, and give it a bonus feat every 2nd level. :smallwink:

Because PrC's exist that advance spellcasting, any that does not to a sufficient degree will merely be overlooked. There are far more "broken" things than RSoP. I never heard of a DM complaining because someone was too good at healing. It is an entirely reactive ability and does nothing to directly contribute to bringing down the enemy.

Kellus
2007-06-28, 04:09 PM
Although the prerequisites look stringent, it's mostly things any cleric of Pelor would take in any case:

- Heal 5 ranks: This is really the most annoying requirement, but luckily you don't need max ranks on it.
- Knowledge (religion) 9 ranks: I haven't seen a cleric yet who hasn't taken this skill.
- Will +5: Cleric, obviously.
- Sun Domain: A cleric of Pelor would often take this domain anyway. And since the PrC allows a new domain to be added halfway through, it pretty much negates this requirement.
- Neutral Good: Many clerics of Pelor would be this alignment in any case, but I can see how it might dissuade some would-be servants.
- Feat (Extra Turning): This is a common feat choice for clerics in any case, especially for those of Pelor or one with divine feats.
- Patron Deity (Pelor): Duh.


I'm not saying I don't like having a Radiant Servant; in fact, he's awesome to have around with his crazy healing. I'm just trying to see things from the DM's perspective, and I do believe that the class simply gets too much:

- A +2 on Will saves, applicable to nearby allies.
- An extra domain of Pelor
- Divine Health
- Double range on light spells and +1 caster level (I'm not saying that this feature is broken, martyboy74, but it's still one more thing on top of an already crazy powerful class).
- Extra Greater Turning
- Free divine feat, albeit not a great one, at 10th level

Let me stress that it's a great class from a player's perspective, although I'll admit that it's usefulness is limited in a low-undead campaign. I just think that it gains too many "little" bonuses over a regular cleric, who's powerful already.

Just my two cents worth.

Droodle
2007-06-28, 04:23 PM
Clerics only get 2 skill points a level. Given that Spellcraft and Concentration are absolute must-haves at maximum, then only a particularly intelligent cleric is going to have the skill points to spare to take the other skills needed for RSoP without taking a substantial hit elsewhere. Further, the Cleric has already nerfed himself just by putting those extra stat points into intelligence instead of, say, constitution. Sure, a RSoP gets an extra domain, but (unless you are allowing domain spontaneity) he can still only cast one domain spell a day and one of those domains is going to be healing, which is probably the most non-optimal domain a cleric can take. What the RSoP does is actually make the healing Domain somewhat useful......which also means that the only thing he's getting out of another domain is its special ability since nearly all of his domain spells are going to be used for healing (for reasons which should be obvious).

Kellus
2007-06-28, 04:31 PM
Fair enough. I've read all your comments and I'll soon take some of them back to the DM to talk to him. All of us are fairly new to DnD in our group, and we're trying to make sure that the game is balanced. Thanks for the advice, and hopefully our DM will like what you all had to say!

ByeLindgren
2007-06-28, 04:36 PM
Clerics only get 2 skill points a level. Given that Spellcraft and Concentration are absolute must-haves at maximum, then only a particularly intelligent cleric is going to have the skill points to spare to take the other skills needed for RSoP without taking a substantial hit elsewhere. Further, the Cleric has already nerfed himself just by putting those extra stat points into intelligence instead of, say, constitution. Sure, a RSoP gets an extra domain, but (unless you are allowing domain spontaneity) he can still only cast one domain spell a day and one of those domains is going to be healing, which is probably the most non-optimal domain a cleric can take. What the RSoP does is actually make the healing Domain somewhat useful......which also means that the only thing he's getting out of another domain is its special ability since nearly all of his domain spells are going to be used for healing (for reasons which should be obvious).Many of these points are reasons why Cloistered Cleric and RSoP were made for each other. Even still, RSoP is meh without domain spontaneity.

Forks
2007-06-28, 04:38 PM
Extra turning and the limit on domains really turn RSoP away from being overpowered.

My guess is that most people see the free Empowered/Maximized heals, think it applies to ALL heals, then think the PrC is cheesy. Then the feeling persists even when they find out it doesnt work that way.

Callix
2007-06-28, 04:39 PM
The main reason I see a Pelorite not taking this class is simply that they are better off picking up almost any other full-casting PrC. This class caters to healbots. Healbots are not what make clerics overpowered, and are frankly a somewhat dull party role. This adds nice flavour and a feeling of importance, and the ability to fight undead effectively, while drawing spell slots most clerics use for CZilla to heal. The light spell buff is just flavour. Unless you plan on throwing constant undead (particularly vampires) at them, a few Sunbeams with big areas and high damage aren't really game-breaking. Also, Sun and Healing are extremely specialised domains, and to use the Empowered/Maximized Healing, you need to dedicate domain slots to it. So while it's good at what it does, it favours suboptimal tactics to put them on a level footing.

Piccamo
2007-06-28, 04:41 PM
All of us are fairly new to DnD in our group, and we're trying to make sure that the game is balanced.

DnD fails at being balanced. Everyone can have fun at the same table, in the same game. It is simply not designed to be balanced.

There is no need to be concerned about balance with RSoP as long as divine metamagic doesn't come into play.

Dark_Wind
2007-06-28, 04:43 PM
Fair enough. I've read all your comments and I'll soon take some of them back to the DM to talk to him. All of us are fairly new to DnD in our group, and we're trying to make sure that the game is balanced. Thanks for the advice, and hopefully our DM will like what you all had to say!

True "balance" is a chimeric goal in this game. The key, really, is just to make sure that the party is more or less blanced with itself, such that no one PC or group of PCs overshadows everyone else. It's more fun that way, and that's the whole point of playing, right? Blancing encounters against the party is the GMs job, and should be exactly that: balancing encounters against the party and not vice versa.

To that end, the RSoP is probably one of the better PrCs out there, because a healing focused Cleric is less likely to start pulling crazy buff combos and making the party fighter look like a small child with a stick. Everybody likes healing, and few people are liable to complain that the party Cleric is now that much better at it.

Ulzgoroth
2007-06-28, 05:44 PM
Is the RSoP in fact good at healing? Because if their healing abilities apply to only one (domain slot) spell per level per day, they really aren't all that much. I don't actually see any reason in the text to think that's what the ability means, but a number of people have been claiming that...

If that's true, the only really impressive trick in the whole class is the extra greater turning.

oloknotwise
2007-06-28, 05:47 PM
Wow, this board really moved fast.

After rethinking everything and reading what other people say, from what I gather, our DM overlooked the ruling that the Empowered/Maximised Healing only applies to domain spells. I already gave up the +1 Caster Level on Cure Spells to be able to spontaneously cast Restoration spells (Dungeonscape Cleric alternative) like the spontaneous cure spells.

All I can hope for is that my DM realizes that I took this PrC based on the fact that it enhances my position within our party. I am the primary healer, at this point in time (we are at tenth level), my party has to rarely rely on healing potions, unless I am severely hindered (and there comes Divine Health to provide some insurance). I have nine turn attempts/day, and yet I rarely use those, even for the Divine Shield Feat I took from Complete Warrior (the few times I am selfish). Otherwise, this is a VERY low-undead campaign.

Thank-you to everyone who provided their two+ cents.

Jasdoif
2007-06-28, 05:50 PM
I don't actually see any reason in the text to think that's what the ability means, but a number of people have been claiming that...I've never seen such a reason either, although I've seen a few arguments over it. I maintain that "domain spell" simply means "spell on a domain list", not necessarily one prepared in a domain slot.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-28, 06:29 PM
May I highly suggest grabbing Complete Divine and grabbing some Divine feats to use your Turn attempts on?

How about blowing two turn attempts rather than just one to Greater Turning, so you can do it more than once per day?

How about blowing a turn attempt to be able to heal your tank from 30'?

Others are also available

Also, if you truely wish to show them the power of Cheeze, do this:

Divine Metamagic: Basically lets you trade out extra spell levels from metamagic for turn attempts

Persist Spell: +6 CL, turns a self-only spell into a 24 hour duration

Then memorise the following two spells:

Divine Power. Gives you the BAB of a Fighter, extra strength, and hit points

Righteous Might: Increase size one category, gives you DR/evil, and more Strength

Congratulations, not only are you a healbot, but you're also out-tanking the tank.

Then point out you can do this with a base cleric, and don't need RSoP to do it.

They'll be falling all over themselves to let you carry on with your RSoP healbot.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-28, 06:41 PM
Look up Dracolyte, or any number of the other completely random PrC's that are just as "give up nothing get cool stuff" as RSoP.

Tor the Fallen
2007-06-28, 07:13 PM
Look up Dracolyte, or any number of the other completely random PrC's that are just as "give up nothing get cool stuff" as RSoP.

Better yet, read the section in the DMG about PrCs. They're supposed to be "give up nothing, get cool stuff".

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 07:32 PM
The radiant servant is an example of an extreamly poorly designed class. Apart from the whole, not lossing abilities to compensate for gaining them, their ability set is redundant (Im going to make a cleric who heals and turns undead really well), and the flavor is rather...dull, isnt a cleric allready a servant of pelor, come on there has to be something else.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-28, 07:43 PM
The radiant servant is an example of an extreamly poorly designed class. Apart from the whole, not lossing abilities to compensate for gaining them, their ability set is redundant (Im going to make a cleric who heals and turns undead really well), and the flavor is rather...dull, isnt a cleric allready a servant of pelor, come on there has to be something else.

{Scrubbed}

Piccamo
2007-06-28, 07:45 PM
{Scrubbed}

Yes, someone who doesn't agree with you is automatically dumb :smallyuk: It epitomizes Pelor, but it doesn't really do anything.

SadisticFishing
2007-06-28, 07:47 PM
Yes, someone who doesn't agree with you is automatically dumb :smallyuk: It epitomizes Pelor, but it doesn't really do anything.

Then neither does Pelor :P

Ulzgoroth
2007-06-28, 08:04 PM
It emphasizes a subset of the Cleric's abilities (healing and ghost-busting) and the flavor of a certain sort of deity (the light thing) beyond what the vanilla Cleric class can supply on its own. Isn't that a reasonable use of prestige classes? They don't all have to be halfway to independent base classes.

The class doesn't represent a major departure from (one form of) the normal cleric, to be sure...but can you say that Loremaster is a major departure from the academic wizard? Or is that bad too?

giblina
2007-07-04, 07:07 AM
RSoP isn't too bad. It absolutely wrecks undead, but that's easy enough to workaround (simply add more undead, or mix in some non-undead like evil clerics).

I'll also advise that you will have to have any NPC with int score of 10+ hard-target the cleric once he starts healing. If you use dice to determine who they attack randomly, the RSoP can and will heal way more damage than proper EL monsters can dish out.

The real main fault of the PRC is that it doesn't give enough up in exchange for the new abilities it gets. All PRCs are give and take, and strict entrance requirements have never been a sufficient tradeoff for anything.

The assassin PRC is great for an evil rogue, but you lose 4 skill points per level for taking that. Skills are bread and butter for a rogue class, so that's a good hit.

For RSoP, consider house ruling some additional penalties in. Maybe lower BAB progression to poor and/or degrade the RSoP's abilities to cast non-healing / non-light spells (ie: have him cast them at a lower caster level). RSoP gives a lot of very nice abilities... they need to be paid for.

Blackbrrd
2007-07-04, 07:27 AM
Giving a cleric low bab is somewhat of a moot point due to divine power that gives full bab and +6 str...

Lowering the fortitude save from good to poor though is quite a heavy hit. It doesn't make sense to lower the will save.

Dropping the HD to 1d6 is quite heavy. Taking it down to 1d4 would be too much I think.

So, drop the fortitude save from good to poor, and it is moderatly balanced. You are atleast giving up something to get something.

Remind your DM that you will be helping other characters with your healing, not yourself, so you won't steal the spotlight due to that...

giblina
2007-07-07, 06:36 AM
Radiant servants of pelor do help themselves with the healing.

They use it to do massive damage to undead by making touch attacks with same-level, empowered, maximized healing spells.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-07-07, 06:44 AM
Radiant servants of pelor do help themselves with the healing.

They use it to do massive damage to undead by making touch attacks with same-level, empowered, maximized healing spells.

In that case, they're nerfing themselves beyond all recognition and you should be glad they're throwing away one of the most powerful abilities ever handed out by using it to do less direct damage than your average meat shield.

Come on, it's moderate damage to one target. So bloody what? Instead he could be casting Blade Barrier and slicing up whole formations or go with Divine Power and Righteous Might to be doing FAR more damage a round than he can do with a paltry Cure spell.

Honestly, it's like giving someone an M-16 with infinite ammo and seeing them use it as a club by gripping the barrel.

Leon
2007-07-07, 09:10 AM
(he failed to realize that I took a hit die penalty).


Not much of a loss for what you gain, as a Heal Bot (which is what that PrC basically boils down to) you shouldnt be worrying to much about your health - you have meat shields to block damage and uber healing to get back what you do lose


Honestly, it's like giving someone an M-16 with infinite ammo and seeing them use it as a club by gripping the barrel.

Its about all its worth