stealth. what is it good for?

[SirKibblesnbits]

I just created a character for pathfinder who is a wayang alchemist. Due to this build i find my self with an unexpectedly high stealth check of +9 right off the bat(+4 for size +2 for race and +3 for dex). Without a sneak attack, I'm not certain what i strategies i should employ to take advantage of this. Any suggestions?

[Strigon]

Stealth has one main advantage. It essentially allows you to control the flow of information leading up to a battle. Ideally, you learn who you're up against, and where a potential fight will take place before your opponent even knows there might be one.
It allows you to draw up a plan of attack, decide when and where the battle will take place, or if there even will be a battle. If you do your job correctly, your opponent won't know where, when, or who he's fighting until you've all got your weapons six inches into his chest.

[Honest Tiefling]

In high op groups, it's a death sentence. In lower op, it's a valuable part of the game. Also, does anyone else on your team have stealth? That would affect strategy both in and out of character in my opinion.

[SirKibblesnbits]

In high op groups, it's a death sentence. In lower op, it's a valuable part of the game. Also, does anyone else on your team have stealth? That would affect strategy both in and out of character in my opinion.
there is a rougue in our group, but im curious what your opinion is either way

[Sayt]

Stealth is, in some ways the worst implemented skill in Pathfinder, if only because of one, incredibly annoying facet of Pathfinder: There are no facing rules.

You want to sneak behind someone? Well... technically you can't, by RAW. You cann't use stealth if you're being observed. Creatures observation is not a cone, it's a radial area. It's silly, but some GMs are sticklers for the rules, and so stealth can depreciate, and if you want to use it in any serious manner, you want to pick of feats like Hellcat Stealth (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/hellcat-stealth) and Dampen Presence (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dampen-presence) to cut away some of the thorny branches impinging on stealthiness.

[Psyren]

Stealth is only as useful as your GM allows it to be. If monsters ambush the party all the time no matter how much you scout, then it's basically pointless. If your GM allows it to get you a surprise round or useful intel before (or even without!) fighting, then it becomes much more valuable. But it's going to depend on your GM.

[SirKibblesnbits]

i just had a thought, are you able to attack people with their flat foot ac if your hidden?(im sure i read that some where...) like say, i throw a bomb which, as a splash weapon, hits an opponents touch ac,and because its a surprise attack it hits his flat foot, does that mean it he automatically has an effective ac of 10 at that point?

[Crake]

If you want to actually focus on stealth gameplay, a 1 level dip into shadowdancer is totally worth it, as well as picking up a ring of chameleon as soon as you can, and if you're a rogue, getting skill mastery stealth, and the fast stealth talent. With all that you can move around at full speed, taking 10 on your stealth check for generally more than your opponents are even capable of getting on their spot checks, rendering you practically undetectable to normal senses. Your only problem would be creatures with extraordinary senses, which is solved by darkstalker if your DM lets you port it over to pathfinder.

[SorenKnight]

i just had a thought, are you able to attack people with their flat foot ac if your hidden?(im sure i read that some where...) like say, i throw a bomb which, as a splash weapon, hits an opponents touch ac,and because its a surprise attack it hits his flat foot, does that mean it he automatically has an effective ac of 10 at that point?

If the enemy is surprised or unaware of you, then yes you do attack flat-footed AC. And yes you can combo that with a touch attack. However some rare bonuses (like deflection) will apply against both touch and flat-footed, so while someones flat-footed touch AC will usually be ten it won't always be.

[Psyren]

i just had a thought, are you able to attack people with their flat foot ac if your hidden?(im sure i read that some where...) like say, i throw a bomb which, as a splash weapon, hits an opponents touch ac,and because its a surprise attack it hits his flat foot, does that mean it he automatically has an effective ac of 10 at that point?

10 + Deflection/Insight/etc, yes. This works well as an opener, but stealthing after a fight has started is difficult and usually takes up actions even when you can.

[Florian]

Using stealth is also one of the easiest methods to sic targets on your tank.

[Grollub]

Stealth is awesome...

First, you can sneak up on stuff for scouting.

While stealthed (successfully) you are basically immune to attack, as no one knows you are there.

With a (i believe) -20 on the stealth check you can snipe, without giving up your position.

You gain control when/if you enter a battle, as well as positioning.

If you do get into a fight you cant handle and can break Line of sight, you can escape easily.

[Honest Tiefling]

Stealth is only as useful as your GM allows it to be. If monsters ambush the party all the time no matter how much you scout, then it's basically pointless. If your GM allows it to get you a surprise round or useful intel before (or even without!) fighting, then it becomes much more valuable. But it's going to depend on your GM.

Yeah...This is kinda the problem. My suggestion is to ask your DM about it, and to ask the Rogue player to see if you can't do some tag-team attacks (setting up his sneaks, having two people scout in case of ambush or detection, aid another on certain skill checks, etc.) and see if they are on board.

[Jack Mann]

Another potential issue with stealth is that, by the rules, each individual enemy gets a roll. This can make stealth very likely to fail against groups of enemies until you're fairly high level.

At CR 1, average perception score is between four and five. We'll go with four.

Let's say you're sneaking up on five enemies. You roll an 10, so you get a 19. It takes any of these enemies a 16 or better on the die to get a 20 and notice you. That's a 75% chance of sneaking past, which seems like it favors you.

However, each one increases the odds, and generally, it only really matters once the first one notices you. The odds of beating all of them is about 24%. So, about three times in four your stealth attempt will fail.

Of course, sometimes you'll roll really high. If you rolled a 16 yourself, the DC to notice you would be 25, which they aren't going to match no matter how well they roll. On the other hand, sometimes you're going to roll low. If you roll a 1, their chances to notice you are about 70% individually, before you take multiple rolls into account.

Now, if you were scouting, you're now off alone against the enemy, and it may take a few rounds for your allies to come rescue you. Alternately, if you had anyone helping you, that increases the odds that one of you will roll low enough for the enemy to catch you.

To have a fairly good chance of sneaking around, you'll need to save it for times when your stealth is just that much better than the enemy's perception (due to low-perception enemies like goblins and orcs, penalties to perception from environmental factors, or just having a stealth score that much higher than the average perception score for your level).

You might check with your DM to see if he plans to use the standard stealth/perception rules, or if he would be open to using something like passive perception or group rolls to give you a decent chance.

[Kyberwulf]

By raw, a persons facing doesn't matter. They may have 360' degree of vision, but they still have to succeed at seeing you. So it's pretty funny. Technically, you can walk right up to someone who is looking at you. Then you still get your sneak attack.

[Seppo87]

By raw, a persons facing doesn't matter. They may have 360' degree of vision, but they still have to succeed at seeing you. So it's pretty funny. Technically, you can walk right up to someone who is looking at you. Then you still get your sneak attack.
Afaik you must end your movement in a place where you have either cover or concealment - or else your stealth is ruined because you become "observed"

[peacenlove]

To have a fairly good chance of sneaking around, you'll need to save it for times when your stealth is just that much better than the enemy's perception (due to low-perception enemies like goblins and orcs, penalties to perception from environmental factors, or just having a stealth score that much higher than the average perception score for your level).


You forget distance penalties to perception. Also on close quarters you may break line of sight with your first move action, then attempt to hide again with your second. Even if they follow you, they are closer to the party

[Seppo87]

Also on close quarters you may break line of sight with your first move action, then attempt to hide again with your second
No need for that, Stealth is performed as part of movement.
If your movement ends in a place where you cannot be observed, you're allowed a free Stealth check at the end of it.

Technically you can use Stealth if your movement gives you cover or concealment at any point, not necessarily at the end, BUT - as I said in my previous post, if you don't end your movement in a concealed/covered place, you break your stealth, no matter how high the check.

Notes:
1) movement =/= move action. A 5ft step is technically enough
2) Using two move actions to move counts as two movements. You need to be unobserved at the end of both. (you can however move from a cover to another as long as you succeed at stealth checks, even if there's nothing blocking LOS during that movement)
3) a single creature that is capable of communicating with its allies is enough to completely break your stealth. You might succesfully hide from 99 creatures, but the 100th has Blindsight.
Cannot stealth.