A Rogue's Poisons. Or lack thereof.

[Endless Query]

Pretty simple, really, I've been fishing around for info on this one, and I haven't had much luck. While I've seen a lot of ways for Alchemists (er, the class) to try to amp up some poison use, and there is the "Get some extra DC by dropping your sneak attack" dice talent, I just haven't seen much in the way of Rogues (you know, the guys who you'd think would specialize in ye olde toxins. Very underhanded and all) to get much mileage out of poison due to a lack of ability to up DCs or anything in general.

I know Master Alchemist can fill your pockets, as it were, with more poison faster, and I did just notice Powerful Poisoning, but a lot of this seems very feat intensive for very little effect, especially on a Rogue where even the bonus from Powerful Poisoning is delayed after your 2 feats from the 3/4s BAB.

Any way to get the stuff to scale/be useful, or something I already mentioned I overlooked the effectiveness of?

[Florian]

Rogues and poison... an... interesting topic.

Rogues actually have two very useful talents here, Deadly Cocktail and Lasting Poison, allowing you to combine two doses and then use them twice. Pretty effective. Beyond that, the best tool will be a "Virulent" weapon, adding the "+" of the weapon to the poison DC, while the "Toxic" quality adds another flat +2 to DC along with a 25% chance that the poison is not used up.

You might also consider either a two level dip into Daggermark Poisoner or going entirely with that PrC. (Keep in mind that you can gain Accomplished Sneak Attacker multiple times)
As a side-note, look up the feather dart launcher from Ultimate Intrigue. Rogues can use them, they deal no damage and are pretty fine poison delivery systems as they don't break stealth.

Best way to go at it would probably be using Vishkanya with the Sleep Venom racial feat and a lot of the very cheap Poison Tattoos (30gp per tattoo) to boost poison DC by +2.

The problem I see with using poisons on a Rogue is that they simply don´t kill fast enough compared to the raw damage a dedicated TWF Rogue can dish out. Best use will be as a form of control (Drow Poison, Sleep Venom) and setup for a CdG or as a means to kill of fleeing enemies (Deathblade).

[Secret Wizard]

I think Eldritch Poisoner Alchemists do a great job at imitating a rogue

[Florian]

I think Eldritch Poisoner Alchemists do a great job at imitating a rogue

No, not really. Rogue is the premier damage-dealing class and the Alchemist, no matter what archetype, doesn´t even come close to that performance (Ok, Vivisectionist...)

[Psyren]

The key is to make your poison last. Due to the concentration rules, every time poison applies the DC will increase. So you want an injury or contact poison and then as many hits as you can get before needing to reapply. Eventually, they will roll under the DC or roll a 1.

Even with that strategy though, making poison last longer than a couple of hits seems to be difficult, and so many monsters are resistant or immune to it that you're usually better off with something else like damage.


(Keep in mind that you can gain Accomplished Sneak Attacker multiple times)

The feat doesn't appear to allow this.

[DarkOne-Rob]

No, not really. Rogue is the premier damage-dealing class and the Alchemist, no matter what archetype, doesn´t even come close to that performance (Ok, Vivisectionist...)
You cannot possibly be serious. It is well documented that rogues are in a horrible spot in general in Pathfinder and that alchemists stomp them on damage...is the above quote a joke or something?

[Florian]

You cannot possibly be serious. It is well documented that rogues are in a horrible spot in general in Pathfinder and that alchemists stomp them on damage...is the above quote a joke or something?

No. Things change and right now the Rogue is actually able to flank with himself. At that point of time, before errata happen, the Rogue class is powerful by itself. That might change later, that might have been different before, but that is the status quo now.

@Psyren:

The feat gives no indication of not stacking. What makes you think so?

[Secret Wizard]

No, not really. Rogue is the premier damage-dealing class and the Alchemist, no matter what archetype, doesn´t even come close to that performance (Ok, Vivisectionist...)

Incorrect.

You are talking to the dude who came up with the Circling Mongoose build, too, so I think I know my score.

Rogues are a utility class with the ability to deal great deals of damage for sure, but so are specialized Alchemists.

Sneak Attack is not actually that much damage to start with, and it's easily matched through self-buffing and accuracy boosts (which Sneak Attack aims to compensate).

But in any case, the main thing here is that Rogues are built towards TAKEDOWNS with high Sneak Attack, while the Eldritch Poisoner Alchemist is built around DISABLING hits, with some Sneak Attack.

You should give it a try before knocking it.

[Florian]

*Sigh* If you want to, we can start comparing length down to the inch.
But that is not what has been asked for here, a Rogue build that can actually utilize potions for effect.
My answer to that stands and any comparison to the Alchemist just bores me to death as it doesn´t actually answer the original question.

[Psyren]

@Psyren:

The feat gives no indication of not stacking. What makes you think so?

Feats have to say you can take them more than once (e.g. Skill Focus.) If they don't include that language, the general rule is that you can only take them once. Accomplished Sneak Attacker does not have that language.


You cannot possibly be serious. It is well documented that rogues are in a horrible spot in general in Pathfinder and that alchemists stomp them on damage...is the above quote a joke or something?

I wouldn't call them premier but Unchained Rogue fixes most of the issues. They are once again king of skills and debilitating injury gives them much greater damage potential by highly boosting the hit chance of their lower iteratives.

[Jormengand]

Feats have to say you can take them more than once (e.g. Skill Focus.) If they don't include that language, the general rule is that you can only take them once. Accomplished Sneak Attacker does not have that language.

For pedantry's sake, that's not quite true, the rule is the same as it was in 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#featDescriptions): the feat can be taken twice but doesn't stack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats).


If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description

[Endless Query]

I will say, I do find it funny that Vivisectionist/Toxicant starts to look a lot like a poison specialized Rogue, with a bunch of free uses of scaling DC poison (granted, no ability damage, but it can sicken + Daze or Stagger which seems pretty amazing for incapacitating someone quickly and hammering them with more poison doses) though I'm not 100% sure it's an angle I want to go with. For, er, context I'm working on kind of a "doctor" character who can use their knowledge of anatomy (sneak attack) and general biological traits (poisons were the best answer I got) as their combat style. Maybe a Chirugeon/Vivisectionist/Toxicant could be the way to go, have daily doses of healing potions, a lot of poison on command, and all the sneak attack damage of a full rogue... And Sticky Poison.

Granted, Chirgeon blocks out Dread Poisoner's Lore, which would be kind of nice (as, by text, it should affect the touch attack/weapon coating poison, though not the skin contact one), just Poison Use seems less important when you're immune to the poison you're using. The fact that Arcanotoxin can't be effected by Sticky Poison makes it seem... Kind bad though... Though the fact that Toxicant poison can't generally benefit from Swift Poisoning (since it's a swift action to make...)... Well one way or another some of these features aren't going to gel exactly perfectly. (Does anyone else find it weird that Chirgeon drops Poison Use but not Swift Poisoning?)

I dunno, I'll measure it up against an Unchained Rogue build (likely less poison but more general damage due to the Dex swap and not needing as much Int to be effective) and see what works for me (as an Alchemist with basically... Just extracts and some skill bonuses but otherwise all Rogue-y stuff is Rogue enough for my purposes, I think. Just call Swift Alchemy and other such things a loose equivalent for Unchained Skill Unlocks, eh?). Granted, that build suddenly makes a doctor with 0 ranks in Heal. Which is odd. But hey, whatever works.

Also for extra silly, I could smash a bottle of acid or alchemist's fire over someone's face to poison them and get +Int to damage, since I still have Throw Anything for some reason, and I can totally smear poison on a glass bottle, eh?

Really I'll have to double check how optimal the rest of the party is, due to being less reliant on straight poison I suspect the Rogue is generally more effective in combat (in that high Fort saves or poison immunity isn't going to get the Rogue build down anywhere near as much), but I think the party is pretty gimmicky, so full optimization might not be called for. Thanks for all the input!

[Secret Wizard]

Do check out Eldritch Poisoner too, though. I find it to be quite complete a package.

[Endless Query]

My only real issue with Eldritch Poisoner is the "Alchemist discoveries that affect mundane poisons do not apply to an arcanotoxin." clause, meaning that, between that and the fact that the poison only lasts for 1 minute before going inert, means that you can't really effectively try to stack it. Though in all other ways it's pretty much better than the Toxicant's due to having an easier time getting more rounds of effect and multiple saves to clear. And, certainly, the stat damage is better than the raw damage, but being unable to make a full round of poison attacks is kind of a "bummer" as they say, since if you're trying to get the stacking effect your turn is going to be "Move action to get and apply poison" via Envenom, and then your standard attack, which I feel leaves something to be desired.

Or am I missing something? I often am.


. . . Oh, though re-reading Eldritch Poisoner, the fact that you can only add one secondary effect to the poison (Say, just sickened, or just staggered) as opposed to being able to throw, say, Sickened and Dazed at the same time starting at level 6, eventually improving to, say, sickened, shaken, and dazed or sickened and staggered, is something I find to be is a pretty heavy loss in terms of effectiveness.

[DarkOne-Rob]

I wouldn't call them premier but Unchained Rogue fixes most of the issues. They are once again king of skills and debilitating injury gives them much greater damage potential by highly boosting the hit chance of their lower iteratives.
I never said they couldn't do damage, but the claim that they are "the premier damage dealer" is a rather overenthusiastic claim, IMO. Given your response, I generally agree with you - Unchained Rogue is certainly better than regular Rogue, and they are able to perform tricks with skills no one else can. Their damage is also much better, though not top...

[Florian]

For pedantry's sake, that's not quite true, the rule is the same as it was in 3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#featDescriptions): the feat can be taken twice but doesn't stack (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats).

My thoughts on that, too. The wording on the feat in question is curious, as you do not add +1d6 SA, but rather existing SA is raised by one step, up to the half-level maximum. There is no duplicate effect here.


I never said they couldn't do damage, but the claim that they are "the premier damage dealer" is a rather overenthusiastic claim, IMO. Given your response, I generally agree with you - Unchained Rogue is certainly better than regular Rogue, and they are able to perform tricks with skills no one else can. Their damage is also much better, though not top...

It´ll come down to the environment the classes are used in. (U) Rogue simply is an all-day-long class with only one resource to manage (hp) and a scaling damage ability that is resource independent. It´s, as usual, burst vs. static and will boil down to how many encounters before a rest. That´s what I meant with "premiere", along with being able to concentrate PB and WBL on more or less one single point.

If we leave build shenanigans and all tries at pure solo builds aside, a basic (U)Rogue TWFing two high-crit weapons in flaking position simply is a source of constant raw damage.

That leads back to the whole original topic: Poison. The effect must simply stand up to a comparative level with raw damage and that is rarely the case, especially considering one of the main changes in PF, how ability damage works. At that point, we simply must ask the question why the target(s) actually have been alive long enough to be killed by the poison?

[Endless Query]

Yeeahh, that "Why are they still alive?" question is what made the Toxicant (and to a degree Arcanotoxin) at least worth a glance due to the capacity to just tag someone with Dazed or Staggered or something which seems sufficient to possibly be worth your time. Ignore the damage and just incapacitate them for a round or two and finish them off while they're reeling seems like the best way to make poisons more directly useful.

[Florian]

Yeeahh, that "Why are they still alive?" question is what made the Toxicant (and to a degree Arcanotoxin) at least worth a glance due to the capacity to just tag someone with Dazed or Staggered or something which seems sufficient to possibly be worth your time. Ignore the damage and just incapacitate them for a round or two and finish them off while they're reeling seems like the best way to make poisons more directly useful.

Sorry, but to me it seems that you simply try to avoid the underlying truth of the whole matter.
You seem to want to use poison to create "riders" on regular attacks, copying regular conditions. That´s mostly not how it works with poisons at all. What you describe rather is how some Monk builds work.

[Endless Query]

Oh? Fair enough, I'll admit I was mostly just looking at poisons as a character theme so when I hit stuff with "This is poison, it does some damage/stat damage and has an effect you'll find immediately useful, and has a DC that scales with your character." I went "Oh, well, that seems an awful lot like what I was looking for, thank you very much game." And figured that if the, ah, rider effects were decent enough, I wouldn't have to feel too bad about not being as much of a murder machine as I could be because said poison "riders" would be effective enough at being save or sucks I could feel less "bad" about that level of unoptimization.

I wasn't really saying that was "how poisons worked" it was more "I found these two specific poisons more interesting than most because it's how they work, and it's easier for me to see how that's effective/useful."