What Alignment Is This Character?

[Human Paragon 3]

I was just roleplaying my chaotic neutral character when I killed the lord of a local village. My fellow players are all new to the game, and didn't understand why I did this. So then I cast Mass Suggestion on them to agree with me.

The DM had previously said 'No PVP', but I cast the spell secretly, in a note to the DM, so the other players aren't aware it's on them, which makes it alright.

When the Lord's guards arrived, I used my wand of Feign Death on myself and handed my bloodstained axe to our Paladin. Of course they blamed him, and he couldn't protest because of the suggestion spell. And that's when this story gets weird.

Unfortunately the Paladin's player decided that my character's actions labeled him as evil and that he was honour bound to remove the taint of my existence from the world, despite PvP being banned. He turns to my "lifeless" body, and attempts a coup-de-grace. That's when the DM decided to intervene. He decreed that attempting to kill a defenseless man is also an evil action, causing the Paladin to fall from grace and lose his powers. The Paladin was so dismayed by his fall from grace, he decided to kill himself right then and there in an attempt to regain his honor and paladinhood. However, the Lord's Guards, who we had forgotten about, restrained him, along with the rest of the party watching. Then the paladin's player got really upset with me and the DM. The nerve!

Then I casted Seeming from my in-case-of-emergency scroll, and I took the form of the Lord of the guards. My Bluff check succeeded, but then the power went to my head a little...Of course, my first action was to declare it National Official Burning day, at which point the guards made sure that the Paladin was secure in his straitjacket and tied me to a stake in the town square. The DM ruled that since today was already National Druid Day, it was illegal to burn me with a wood-based fire.

So anyway, I'm pretty sure I stayed true to being Chaotic Neutral, but I'd like to get some other opinions on this. Thanks for letting me know, Playgrounders!


Link to original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490660-Collectively-Generate-a-GITP-D-amp-D-Forum-post)

[Gruzzle]

You'll have to explain what motivated you to commit murder. Your actions are certainly chaotic, but without context as to why you killed the lord, the rest of this just sounds evil. CN means that you follow the beat of your own drum, and you are essentially wholly selfish. You'll do whatever you feel is in your own self interest. Making friends, and protecting those friends falls within that because others are useful. Working with the local lord for employment also falls within that. Murdering him just because he's an authority figure is pretty textbook CE. You have, completely predictably, brought on to yourself a heap of trouble resulting from killing him. That goes against self-interest. That's my 2 cents on your character's alignment, with the info given.

Here's some extra opinion, for free. What you and your DM did isn't cool. I would be upset, were I the paladin's player. In fact, I would leave session, and game, and not play with you any longer. Your character is clearly not a team player, and this is a team game. All involved are there to have fun, and what you've done doesn't sound like it's facilitating anyone having fun except you, and maybe the DM. You keeping secrets and manipulating your fellow party members is not making the game fun. Needlessly stirring the pot and putting your party in a terrible spot is not making the game fun for your paladin's player, and I'm disappointed in your DM for allowing it. At the bare minimum, I feel that you need to be open to the players about what you are going to have your character do. Keeping secrets is, as a general rule, a bad idea. I say all of this because I used to do the same kind of thing. I came from playing a lot of Vampire: the Masquerade, and that kind of thing is a bit more acceptable. It was a bad idea for me to bring it to D&D, and so I pass the lesson I learned on to you. Hope all of this helps.

[Strigon]

You'll have to explain what motivated you to commit murder. Your actions are certainly chaotic, but without context as to why you killed the lord, the rest of this just sounds evil. CN means that you follow the beat of your own drum, and you are essentially wholly selfish. You'll do whatever you feel is in your own self interest. Making friends, and protecting those friends falls within that because others are useful. Working with the local lord for employment also falls within that. Murdering him just because he's an authority figure is pretty textbook CE. You have, completely predictably, brought on to yourself a heap of trouble resulting from killing him. That goes against self-interest. That's my 2 cents on your character's alignment, with the info given.
There's no reason why a CN character has to be wholly selfish.
Sure, if they were entirely selfless that would become CG, but there's plenty of room between being completely selfish/working entirely out of self-interest and constantly making sacrifices for others.

In fact, I'm having a hard time picturing a character who doesn't help anyone unless it helps them back as anything above at least borderline Evil.

[Seto]

That's not the question you asked, but a notion of "No pvp" that restricts actual combat but allows mind-controlling party members and framing them for murder seems very narrow to me. My personal definition of "no Pvp" is: no fighting, no stealing from other PCs, no mind-controlling them, no nothing that your character does to another PC that makes that PC's player mad because you're refusing to play a cooperative game. Therefore, saying "I framed his PC for murder and made it so he wouldn't want to defend himself, which was okay because he didn't know about it, but then he violated our No-PvP agreement by wanting to attack me" sounds a bit hypocritical to me.
There's nothing wrong with a narrower definition of "No PvP" that only means "no lethal blows", but are you sure everyone here, and especially the Paladin's player, is on the same page?

[Inevitability]

*Watches in amusement*

[Gildedragon]

-facepalm-
The character's alignment isn't the issue but seeing how the only aligned act he does is murder... And then mind control others to be okay with it: evil.

Also bad bad. If no pvp you don't cast that sort of spells on other players.

The paladin is right to be upset with you and the DM. The DM is clearly letting playing favorites with you.
There is nothing in suggestion that would make the paladin incapable of explaining themselves. So that's the DM ruling for you against him.
You start PvP and get away with it, and when the paladin tries to give you tit for tat he gets struck down (again DM favoring you at others' expense)

As to the national official burning day nonsense... Sans comment there

[Seppo87]

Players issues aside, the character framed an innocent for a crime he committed
This is an Evil behavior without doubt

And, I'm not going to be diplomatic here.
You and the DM have wronged the paladin player and should apologize for your behavior.

[Gruzzle]

If I understand correctly, his spoiler original post shows that this entire story line unfolded via the community posting one sentence at a time? There was no DM, nor other players. It's all a mental exercise.

[Duke of Urrel]

The DM had previously said 'No PVP', but I cast the spell secretly, in a note to the DM, so the other players aren't aware it's on them, which makes it alright.

I don't understand how this can happen, and even if it could happen, I don't understand what makes it all right.

If your PC fails to make a Will save against a spell of the Enchantment school and the Compulsion subschool, your PC may be unaware of this, but you yourself, the player, cannot be unaware if you're going to role-play appropriately. (Guigarci is also right about the limits of the Mass Suggestion spell.)

The "No PvP" rule should forbid casting the Mass Suggestion spell on your party's paladin in order to make him fall. If this isn't acting against a fellow PC, then what is?

As for alignment, I believe Chaotic-Neutral characters detest the Law and hate social rules, but I believe they also look out for themselves and their friends and allies. If you don't rely upon the Law, then you absolutely have to rely on a small network of people you can trust. I believe Chaotic-Neutral characters are just as careful to remember who has done them favors – and just as keen to repay them – as they are to remember who has wronged them – and to take revenge against them. This has nothing to do with the Law, justice, or social norms; it's all personal and very pragmatic. A Chaotic-Neutral character is very unlikely to betray the trust of a close associate so crassly as to make an allied paladin fall. This is not only an act that veers sharply toward Evil, it's not even really in a character's self-interest.

[Sword-Geass]

Duke, just read the post linked in the OP spoiler. And don't feel bad about it :smallbiggrin:

Also, why did you have to end it so early Gruzzle? It could have been so much fun...

[BilltheCynic]

When I was first reading the story I thought, "Eesh, that guy is a jerk." Then I saw how that story was generated. I now wish you'd let the Playground keep going; it could have been even more insane.

Anyway, in regards to the question, I'd say the "character" falls squarely under Chaotic Stupid (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid). (Warning! TV Tropes link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TVTropesWillRuinYourLife))

[Zanos]

Duke, just read the post linked in the OP spoiler. And don't feel bad about it :smallbiggrin:

Also, why did you have to end it so early Gruzzle? It could have been so much fun...
I actually thought this was real until I checked the spoiler. Good job OP, ya got me.

[Grollub]

I was just roleplaying my chaotic neutral character when I killed the lord of a local village. My fellow players are all new to the game, and didn't understand why I did this. So then I cast Mass Suggestion on them to agree with me.

The DM had previously said 'No PVP', but I cast the spell secretly, in a note to the DM, so the other players aren't aware it's on them, which makes it alright.

When the Lord's guards arrived, I used my wand of Feign Death on myself and handed my bloodstained axe to our Paladin. Of course they blamed him, and he couldn't protest because of the suggestion spell. And that's when this story gets weird.

Unfortunately the Paladin's player decided that my character's actions labeled him as evil and that he was honour bound to remove the taint of my existence from the world, despite PvP being banned. He turns to my "lifeless" body, and attempts a coup-de-grace. That's when the DM decided to intervene. He decreed that attempting to kill a defenseless man is also an evil action, causing the Paladin to fall from grace and lose his powers. The Paladin was so dismayed by his fall from grace, he decided to kill himself right then and there in an attempt to regain his honor and paladinhood. However, the Lord's Guards, who we had forgotten about, restrained him, along with the rest of the party watching. Then the paladin's player got really upset with me and the DM. The nerve!


Link to original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?490660-Collectively-Generate-a-GITP-D-amp-D-Forum-post)


What was the wording on the Mass Suggestion, for starters???

Just because they "agree" with you.. which ya. i dunno how you would get that .. but anyways.. doesn't mean he would accept being framed for murder, or becoming a slave.

The Paladin should have pointed to your "dead body" said "he just cast a spell off a scroll, and flopped over, after murdering your Lord. Here is the axe he used, we all saw him do it." None of this goes against him "agreeing" with your action

[Duke of Urrel]

Duke, just read the post linked in the OP spoiler. And don't feel bad about it :smallbiggrin:

I don't feel bad. After all, I know I solved the OP's problem! :smallwink:

[MisterKaws]

I know that this is a half-troll post, but honestly, killing a defenseless evildoer is unlawful, but definitely not evil: killing someone who has proved to be able to murder an innocent in cold blood is totally okay - not good, but not evil either.

Still violates the honor code, but I figured I should point it out.