Just Barb Things

[TheWretched]

Ok so I've decided to roll a Mountain Dwarf Barbarian and go Path of the Berserker....I'm fairly new getting back into D&D. I currently have a Eldritch Knight and a Circle of the Moon Druid. ANYWAYS I'm worried about going Berserker because of the Exhaust mechanics but I'm wondering if its too out of the question to homebrew something to make it more manageable. I'll be a tanky Barbarian in a party of 6-8 with very few other melee (2-3 including myself). Any thoughts will be appreciated, thanks in advance!

[gfishfunk]

My simple homebrew solution is to allow a barbarian to get rid of exhaustion by expending 2 hit die on a short rest. The hit die expended in such a way do not grant hp back.

It really does not NEED adjustment. Totem barbarians are great and the more optimal choice, but Berserkers are playable if you are not looking for total optimization.

[TheWretched]

I still havent decided if I'm gonna go Berserker or Totem both seem great to me but I'm on the fence lol.......you just seem to get so much more at each level for Berserker vs Totem

[gfishfunk]

Totem offers very strong benefits: the benefits are fantastic.

Bererker is a bit difficult to play due to exhaustion levels: even after one level, your character has difficulty doing anything. A long rest removes one exhaustion level, so if you use the berserker feature twice in a day, it takes TWO long rests to fix. And if you use it too early, your character is not good at anything for the remainder of the day.

[Armored Walrus]

And if you use it too early, your character is not good at anything for the remainder of the day.

Are barbarians usually relied upon by a group to do anything other than be strong? The disadvantage on ability checks for the rest of the day can be countered by raging before bending the bars or breaking down the door, and I don't see the barbarian being the one trying to bluff the guard or sneak into the second story window anyway. I think you can very easily treat frenzy as a once per long rest ability and not have any substantial drawbacks.

[gfishfunk]

There are plenty of ability checks that party members may need to make: jumping over chasms, swimming, resisting grapples or shoves, etc.

And these are ability checks, which I believe <but might be wrong> includes initiative.

[Oramac]

And these are ability checks, which I believe <but might be wrong> includes initiative.

I'm AFB, but pretty sure Initiative is considered an ability check.

Personally, I like the idea of expending hit dice to offset the exhaustion effect, though it's not ideal.

Really, the whole Frenzy Rage feature needs to be rewritten. Exhaustion is just too strong a downside to ever use it.

I might make it something to the effect of (off the top of my head):

"At the beginning of each of your turns, you may choose to enter a frenzied rage, allowing you to make an attack using your bonus action in addition to your normal attacks. However, while in a frenzy, you are no longer resistant to damage until the beginning of your next turn."

[ZX6Rob]

I like to let Berzerkers spend a second use of Rage to turn an existing Rage into a Frenzy and then just ditch the existing exhaustion/frenzy mechanic entirely. It means that, rather than risk/reward being the choice to cripple yourself later for more damage now, the choice is more one of resource management -- do I burn more uses of Rage now to get the extra damage for this bad guy, or do I slow-burn and save some adrenaline for later?

[Oramac]

I like to let Berzerkers spend a second use of Rage to turn an existing Rage into a Frenzy and then just ditch the existing exhaustion/frenzy mechanic entirely. It means that, rather than risk/reward being the choice to cripple yourself later for more damage now, the choice is more one of resource management -- do I burn more uses of Rage now to get the extra damage for this bad guy, or do I slow-burn and save some adrenaline for later?

Ahh! This is a good idea as well! (though maybe a bit expensive for low-level barbs)

[Osrogue]

There are plenty of ability checks that party members may need to make: jumping over chasms, swimming, resisting grapples or shoves, etc.

And these are ability checks, which I believe <but might be wrong> includes initiative.

Too bad barbarians don't get advantage on initiative after level 7.

Barbarians' class features mitigate the first four levels of exhaustion. Some work onlh while enraged.

All levels occur after the frenzy is over.
Level 1: disadvantage on ability checks.
Barbs get advantage on strength and initiative checks. Frenzy is pretty much against bosses or things that must die. This first level is more appealing to take earlier in the day after level 7, when you don't tank your initiative for the entire day afterward. (Requires at least 1 rage left to mitigate)

Level 2: reduced movement speed: they get +10, and Barbarians can dash and still make an attack while frenzying. Can definitely frenzy twice per day.

Level 3: disadvantage on attack rolls and saves. Barbarians have at will advantage through reckless attack, as long as they're willing to take a hit, which they can with their giant health pool and damage resistance. If not, fell handed anybody? Pick either tankiness or damage. (Str saving throw requires rage)

Level 4: half maximum HP
Now the barbarian has a normal amount of effective health. Far from ideal, but still doable for people who really need that extra damage. Really pushing it though. Can't pick tanky anymore. Now it's just damage. (Must be enraged to have damage reduction, or else the barbarian will be squishy, though about as much as a rogue)

Level 5: don't do this. No, not even then. Only if this is the last fight the barbarian will be having this week, and the choice is between frenzying a 5th time and death.

Level 6: Picking death.

So, it's workable. You could frenzy about 3 times a day, and still be an effective tank, if you step into a rage, and 4 times a day, and you could still be a presence, if not a super impressive one, on the battlefield. Except you can't, because the problem with exhaustion is that it goes away one day at a time. So if a barbarian frenzies four times, he won't be back to full strength for half a week, which is really rough.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I still havent decided if I'm gonna go Berserker or Totem both seem great to me but I'm on the fence lol.......you just seem to get so much more at each level for Berserker vs Totem

The path of the Bear ability at 3rd level is so OP that it's better than anything in the entire Berserker path. I say this with sadness as I wish the berserker path could compare but it just doesn't. Unlike previous editions, rage in 5e is really about making your barbarian a damage sponge, and nothing is more powerful at that than the Bear Totem 3rd level ability.

[ZX6Rob]

The path of the Bear ability at 3rd level is so OP that it's better than anything in the entire Berserker path. *snip*

So, I've been thinking about this for a while -- is it, though?

The most common type of damage a Barbie will be facing is physical -- bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. When raging, he's already got resistance to that -- all barbarians get resistance to physical damage whenever they rage. Most monsters want to get physical with you after softening you up with their One Crazy Thing. Dragons breathe fire, what, once or twice in a given combat, thanks to their recharge mechanic, but the rest of the time, they're biting and hacking away at you with natural weapons. Even smart opponents that attack in groups usually do so with physical weapons -- there's not too many times you'll face a challenge of eight enemy mages with no backup. There's a few exceptions, like elementals, where the monster always does a weird damage type, or enemy wizards/archmages, where you're facing spellcasting round-after-round, but I feel like it's pretty stacked toward hack, bite, and bash on the whole.

The way I figure it, a back-of-the-hand, off-the-top-of-my-head estimate says that, even at higher levels, 75% or more rounds of combat will involve someone trying to use physical damage against the party. All the other stuff -- fire, cold, acid, force, whatever "booming" is supposed to be (I know it's sonic, but come on, "booming energy"?), that stuff just doesn't come up as often as you'd think it does.

The Bearbarian is a super-good build, but I've played on a few tables with one now, and I honestly think that, especially at lower levels, non-physical damage comes up rarely enough that it's just not as big of a deal as it seems on paper. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I feel like it's a really good insurance policy that you don't actually tap into all that often. It feels really, really good when you do get to use it, but most of the time, it's sitting in your back pocket as you rage against something that is just trying to hit you with a club anyway.

[Oramac]

especially at lower levels, non-physical damage comes up rarely enough that it's just not as big of a deal as it seems on paper

At low levels, yes, it's largely wasted. But once you reach Tier 2 play and higher, you run into far more varied damage types. Maybe not a majority, but enough to make it quite useful.

[gfishfunk]

Too bad barbarians don't get advantage on initiative after level 7.

Barbarians' class features mitigate the first four levels of exhaustion. Some work onlh while enraged.

All levels occur after the frenzy is over.
Level 1: disadvantage on ability checks.
Barbs get advantage on strength and initiative checks. Frenzy is pretty much against bosses or things that must die. This first level is more appealing to take earlier in the day after level 7, when you don't tank your initiative for the entire day afterward. (Requires at least 1 rage left to mitigate)

Level 2: reduced movement speed: they get +10, and Barbarians can dash and still make an attack while frenzying. Can definitely frenzy twice per day.

Level 3: disadvantage on attack rolls and saves. Barbarians have at will advantage through reckless attack, as long as they're willing to take a hit, which they can with their giant health pool and damage resistance. If not, fell handed anybody? Pick either tankiness or damage. (Str saving throw requires rage)

Level 4: half maximum HP
Now the barbarian has a normal amount of effective health. Far from ideal, but still doable for people who really need that extra damage. Really pushing it though. Can't pick tanky anymore. Now it's just damage. (Must be enraged to have damage reduction, or else the barbarian will be squishy, though about as much as a rogue)

Level 5: don't do this. No, not even then. Only if this is the last fight the barbarian will be having this week, and the choice is between frenzying a 5th time and death.

Level 6: Picking death.

So, it's workable. You could frenzy about 3 times a day, and still be an effective tank, if you step into a rage, and 4 times a day, and you could still be a presence, if not a super impressive one, on the battlefield. Except you can't, because the problem with exhaustion is that it goes away one day at a time. So if a barbarian frenzies four times, he won't be back to full strength for half a week, which is really rough.

That is a great analysis. My only disagreement is in the bolded part, but that is only if the Barbarian is adventuring over multiple days back to back. For fun math: Maximum rages =2 + d times, whereas d=number of continuous days.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

At low levels, yes, it's largely wasted. But once you reach Tier 2 play and higher, you run into far more varied damage types. Maybe not a majority, but enough to make it quite useful.

THIS. As soon as you are facing tougher monsters and spellcasters, the bear totem barbarian is going to survive where the berserker barbarian will die. Trust me, I've seen my berserker barbarian die in too many situations where I thought "if he was bear totem, he'd still be alive".