Trying to play a lawful evil reaction

[JustinMacleod84]

Hi,

First time posting here, though I've always enjoyed reading the discussions.

I run a rather inexperienced role-playing group of level seven adventurers who have acted rather foolishly, playing right into the hands of the villain. The degree of respect that a lawful evil character has for the law as it applies to him/her and his associates has always confused me somewhat; after all, lawful evil characters murder, cheat and so on.

So the town where the PCs live has a disguised devil for a mayor. He's charmed his way into the community and most people love him or have been charmed to do so. He's strong, charismatic etc. He's actually a terribly demoted member of the Blessed Angels, trying to win his way back up the ladder. I'm running the PCs through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, the plans of whose villains, if taken seriously, any devil would want to stop. Also, he loves, in as far as any devil can love, the party sorceress.

Here's where it gets complicated. In my version, the PCs have just got back from the plane of shadow, where they had to rescue their cleric from a cultist of Tharizdun. They succeeded, but they don't remember how. There is a block on their memories, which they believe to be time travel. Basically, they were about to fight the final fight and suddenly appeared back home with their companion, altogether except for the sorceress, (the devil's love interest), who woke up at his house, being taken care of by him and his household.

Reason for this is, though they don't know it yet, that the devil appeared to the sorceress and offered to save her and her comrades from their otherwise certain death, for the price of her soul, which she traded him. Her character hasn't played this out yet but it will be what happens. Either he'll force the issue, in which case she has rite of appeal, which will be fun for all concerned, or she'll sacrifice her soul for them willingly, in which case it's a quest of redemption.

Anyway, their return from the Plane of Shadow separated them from their much loved animals - horses and dogs, which they found in the hands of a local farmer, with whom they have something of a score to settle already. He's your typical rich land-owning, money-grabbing, sell his own grandmother type, who swore blind the animals were his and they couldn't do anything about it. When he kindly offered to sell them their own animals back, they took exception to this for some reason. The ranger, a hot-tempered fellow at the best of times was so angry he threatened to kill him, in front of a witness, another potential buyer, if he didn't hand the animals over. He was talked down by the others, whereupon the sorceress, also hot-blooded, tried to walk out with the animals. Her more sober comrades wouldn't help with that either, so they did end up having to suffer the humiliation of an even more extortionate purchase.

Convinced that he's a thief and wishing to use the mayor's friendship with the sorceress, they want to bring the whole matter before him, hoping that he'll come down on their side. Thing is that Silas, the farmer, acted within the law, since his theft can't be proved, whereas they threatened violence and intimidated him.

I'm wondering how the fact that he owns one of the party's souls might influence his actions. He could give her some kind of boon, some kind of supernatural intervention against the farmer for example. She's already got a violent streak and wants to get even with him. He could push her further down that road, though how to do it and would he do it being as murder is illegal.

Another thing I thought was that he might suggest they challenge him to single combat. The ranger or the sorceress might enjoy that. If the sorceress, she could find out at the last minute that she's not allowed to use magic and the devil could encourage her to cheat, thereby putting her even further in his power, important, especially if it turns out he's going to have had to coerce her soul out of her, which would weaken his position in the devil's hierarchy still further if it all came undone.

If they win the single combat, which they almost certainly would, him just being a farmer and all, this would further damage their reputation about the town. Horrible, rich adventurers intimidating a poor commoner, possibly, if it's a fight to the death, robbing a family of a father and breadwinner and so on.

I certainly don't think, contrary to what is written in Tyrants of the nine Hells, that he'd want to kill the sorceress, having captured her soul, because of his interest in her and in the party's quest. He would also have to be very careful about sticking to the law and coming down against them, for fear of alienating them.

Basically, I'm wondering how you think he'd act, how you think he'd preserve his interests while preserving the law etc.

Thanks ever so much for any help.

Justin

[Honest Tiefling]

I assume the devil wishes for a companion. There could be a lot of ways to do this, but the first thing to do is to encourage her to be lawful evil. But I think you need to define lawful evil. I wouldn't bother with OUR definition of it, however, none of us are a part of your game. I think you should just define lawful evil for your setting and group, and try your best to make it a definition that is comfortable and enjoyable for your group.

Truth be told, very few people agree on alignment.

For instance, if I was playing this devil, maybe he doesn't respect the law of mortals, because mortals are flawed trivial things who only ape the perfect order of Hell. So breaking the law constantly like that matters as much as respecting the hierarchy of a bunch of stupid horses. That's nice you're TRYING, but really? Pat pat, have a nice apple. Have him respect the law of Hell, and only Hell perhaps.

Also, what has caused the devil to be so interested in the sorceress? I would worry about this approach because it thrusts her into the lime light too much. Maybe the devil gets a hankering for a harem? That Ranger shows some evil potential! And if not for a harem, then surely, corrupting the sorceress so that she rules over her companions with an iron fist is both proper and endearing! Or he's not dumb enough to think she'll swoon for the guy who gets her party killed. Or perhaps the others would be amusing to corrupt, or might make for good minions. Or he wants to test her, and see if she can overpower her comrades. If you're going to settle down, only settle for the best!

I don't think it would be overly contary to have him prevent her from being killed. I mean, I assume there's some sort of basis for his attraction, and flesh is just the prison mortals become so attached to. If he was just attracted to her looks he could have selected a lower ranking devil and sculpted her/him/it into the form he wanted. Lemures get stripped of their minds, so getting her killed is just like buying a really nice house and then setting it on fire.

[LTwerewolf]

The very best piece of advice I can give you about lawful evil things.

Repeat after me: "Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel."

Until that sorts itself out, try reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil).

[Gildedragon]

Well ownership of animals can be proved. Did anyone see them ride in town with them before? The person who sold the beasts, for example, is a witness; as is the stableboy for the inn where they stayed, is another...
Cattle rustling and horse theft is a serious crime typically punished by death.
The devil might point out the existence of said witnesses.

And even if the PCs lose the trial, well the fiend knows the farmer to be a rustler that has gone unpunished
...They might end up suiciding themselves (or rather it looking like they've suicided)
Hanging, after all, is the rustler's fate by the laws

[Cavir]

Honest Tiefling has a point with "define lawful evil for your setting and group, and try your best to make it a definition that is comfortable and enjoyable for your group."

In case you didn't see it, late last year people put together a collection of articles on the various alignments. The input from there may help you:
Alignment Guides (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448812-Alignment-Handbook-Super-Thread)
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil) <- Ninja'd

[Red Fel]

The very best piece of advice I can give you about lawful evil things.

Repeat after me: "Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel."

Until that sorts itself out, try reading this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil).

https://rebekahkoontzsite.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/swivel-chair.gif

Always a pleasure. And good advice.

Hello, new friend. Let's see if we can't "help" you, hmm?


Hi,

First time posting here, though I've always enjoyed reading the discussions.

I run a rather inexperienced role-playing group of level seven adventurers who have acted rather foolishly, playing right into the hands of the villain. The degree of respect that a lawful evil character has for the law as it applies to him/her and his associates has always confused me somewhat; after all, lawful evil characters murder, cheat and so on.

As always, I should point out that "Lawful" and "law-abiding" are two entirely different things. Lawful means traditional, honorable, or abiding some manner of code. Anybody can be law-abiding, or not law-abiding.


So the town where the PCs live has a disguised devil for a mayor. He's charmed his way into the community and most people love him or have been charmed to do so. He's strong, charismatic etc. He's actually a terribly demoted member of the Blessed Angels, trying to win his way back up the ladder. I'm running the PCs through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, the plans of whose villains, if taken seriously, any devil would want to stop. Also, he loves, in as far as any devil can love, the party sorceress.

I like him already. Mutually beneficial objectives, shows affection for other people, all good. Do be careful about NPCs flirting with PCs, of course, but otherwise good so far.


Here's where it gets complicated. In my version, the PCs have just got back from the plane of shadow, where they had to rescue their cleric from a cultist of Tharizdun. They succeeded, but they don't remember how. There is a block on their memories, which they believe to be time travel. Basically, they were about to fight the final fight and suddenly appeared back home with their companion, altogether except for the sorceress, (the devil's love interest), who woke up at his house, being taken care of by him and his household.

Reason for this is, though they don't know it yet, that the devil appeared to the sorceress and offered to save her and her comrades from their otherwise certain death, for the price of her soul, which she traded him. Her character hasn't played this out yet but it will be what happens. Either he'll force the issue, in which case she has rite of appeal, which will be fun for all concerned, or she'll sacrifice her soul for them willingly, in which case it's a quest of redemption.

Pause. Did the player know about this? I'm going to assume so. I'm also going to suggest that you play the scene out with this character, separately, before this becomes an in-character issue for the rest of the party.


Anyway, their return from the Plane of Shadow separated them from their much loved animals - horses and dogs, which they found in the hands of a local farmer, with whom they have something of a score to settle already. He's your typical rich land-owning, money-grabbing, sell his own grandmother type, who swore blind the animals were his and they couldn't do anything about it. When he kindly offered to sell them their own animals back, they took exception to this for some reason. The ranger, a hot-tempered fellow at the best of times was so angry he threatened to kill him, in front of a witness, another potential buyer, if he didn't hand the animals over. He was talked down by the others, whereupon the sorceress, also hot-blooded, tried to walk out with the animals. Her more sober comrades wouldn't help with that either, so they did end up having to suffer the humiliation of an even more extortionate purchase.

Well, this guy's going to get murdered sooner or later.


Convinced that he's a thief and wishing to use the mayor's friendship with the sorceress, they want to bring the whole matter before him, hoping that he'll come down on their side. Thing is that Silas, the farmer, acted within the law, since his theft can't be proved, whereas they threatened violence and intimidated him.

I'm wondering how the fact that he owns one of the party's souls might influence his actions. He could give her some kind of boon, some kind of supernatural intervention against the farmer for example. She's already got a violent streak and wants to get even with him. He could push her further down that road, though how to do it and would he do it being as murder is illegal.

Okay. Let's start with some basics, shall we?

Let's say I own a record store. (Kids, records are like CDs, only older, made of vinyl, much more fragile, requiring outdated equipment to play, and producing a sound that isn't as clear.) You come in and buy one of my records. I take your money, you have my product. Unless I anticipate future business, what incentive do I have to do you any favors in the future?

In short, in terms of business, his with her is concluded. He has her soul - what happens to her after that is none of his concern unless she manages to atone or appeal.

That is, in terms of business. You have said he shows affection for her. As I observe in my guide, helpfully linked upthread, Evil creatures show affection in unusual ways. If he cares for her - inasmuch as an Evil Outsider is capable of it - he would be interested in (1) protecting her (but not from himself), and (2) demonstrating his own value as someone for whom she should care. Manipulating the law is within his authority as an authority figure, and would allow him to achieve both aims.

True, the PCs threatened a man and can't prove their ownership. But it is within the authority of a magistrate-type figure to hold a hearing, and determine for himself the credibility of the parties. He can easily find the PCs more credible than this NPC, and order the return of the animals. This is, by the way, both a Lawful and a law-abiding outcome.

As for corrupting her further, there's no need, except inasmuch as it pleases him to do so. She has traded her soul away. He owns her, and she is damned. She doesn't have to be corrupt - she's already headed for the Hells.


Another thing I thought was that he might suggest they challenge him to single combat. The ranger or the sorceress might enjoy that. If the sorceress, she could find out at the last minute that she's not allowed to use magic and the devil could encourage her to cheat, thereby putting her even further in his power, important, especially if it turns out he's going to have had to coerce her soul out of her, which would weaken his position in the devil's hierarchy still further if it all came undone.

Tempting. But you've overplayed it.

Here's the thing. There are corruptors, who offer the PCs options which - while effective and efficient - are vile and corrupting in a moral sense. They're the drug-peddlers who need to keep pushing their product until the deed is done. Then there are the contractors - instead of a gradual process, they make a sale. Same outcome, but it's finished in one shot. He's the latter; why does he need the former?

Possible answer? He doesn't just want her soul. He wants her. By driving her into depths of depravity, he attempts to ensure that not only will she be damned; she'll be like him. Most damned souls are just fodder for larger and more powerful Devils, but the particularly vile may become Devils themselves. Perhaps he hopes to have her as one of his own.


If they win the single combat, which they almost certainly would, him just being a farmer and all, this would further damage their reputation about the town. Horrible, rich adventurers intimidating a poor commoner, possibly, if it's a fight to the death, robbing a family of a father and breadwinner and so on.

I certainly don't think, contrary to what is written in Tyrants of the nine Hells, that he'd want to kill the sorceress, having captured her soul, because of his interest in her and in the party's quest. He would also have to be very careful about sticking to the law and coming down against them, for fear of alienating them.

Basically, I'm wondering how you think he'd act, how you think he'd preserve his interests while preserving the law etc.

Thanks ever so much for any help.

Justin

Ultimately, you're overvaluing "the law" (i.e. of the land), particularly when a local ruler, such as a mayor, has the authority to change or manipulate it in his favor. Twisting the lowercase-l law is something that LE does particularly well.

If your goal is to drive the party into depravity, you have a good position. Put them into desperate scenarios and isolate them from the affection of the people - let them depend on this guy more and more. But that only works if the PCs are willing to go to such lengths - it gets hard if they wise up and try to rehabilitate their image.

What you need to decide is what this guy's agenda is. Does he want to reinforce her damnation? Obtain her as a bride? Corrupt the whole party? Guarantee their success? Figure that out first, then work on the means to the end.

[LoyalPaladin]

*Carefully watches thread from on high.*
https://67.media.tumblr.com/fa103db0fb96738817d498456cd0213e/tumblr_nb6hcejfbZ1tiz7bvo1_500.gif

[Honest Tiefling]

What, can't a guy try to score without a paladin watching the entire affair? (You pervert!)

[LoyalPaladin]

What, can't a guy try to score without a paladin watching the entire affair? (You pervert!)
As the patron deity of paladins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19051786&postcount=19) here on this board, I believe this affects my portfolio.


... evil... evil... Evil...

... evil... ...evil... evil... evil...

... evil... Evil... evil... Evil... Evil...

... Evil... Evil...
Surprisingly, Red Fel has the least amount of "Evil" in his post. Oh, it'd be a shame and insult if I didn't point out the other draw to the thread.


Repeat after me: "Red Fel, Red Fel, Red Fel."
You don't even have to have divine ranks to know something's up when this happens.

[LTwerewolf]

You don't even have to have divine ranks to know something's up when this happens.

A proper disciple of LE knows the procedures required. I'm not a dark knight for no reason.

[Honest Tiefling]

... evil... ...evil... evil... evil...

I note that all of those aren't capitalized. It must mean that my acts of evil are lesser, adorable ones.

[LoyalPaladin]

I note that all of those aren't capitalized. It must mean that my acts of evil are lesser, adorable ones.
As a proud member of the "L" side of the alignment chart, I left the capitalization as it was in the original post. You know, as to not tamper with any evidence.

[LTwerewolf]

Had my group today. Got them to sign a faustian pact. Good times. Group full of neutral and good characters and knew that an imp had made the contracts. Good times.