Undead Fang of Lolth Build Help

[Death_Lord12]

So I have the BBEG that's a Necropolitan Dread Necromancer in my campaign. I have him making some deals with Lolth for some fancy magic items and what not. So I had an idea, as part of the trade(s) they do, what if the BBEG gives Lolth a special servant? I would like to know the most optimized way of making a Fang of Lolth (http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/fanglolth.shtml) build with the twist of also being undead. I'm thinking a stealth kind of build with hit-and-run tactics, a little bit of spellcasting (spell-stitched maybe?), along with a bunch of spider related powers. I want it to be level 20 total (ECL doesn't matter, just don't go crazy on template stacking), but I want the Fang of Lolth class to be specifically level 9 so that it gets the spider limbs but doesn't change to vermin type (natural armor could easily be covered by something else i.e. lich or something) and replace the undead type (unless there is a way to avoid that). Some poison would also be cool, but can you do that when a creature has no Constitution score? If not natural poison than something else would be fine, weapons or Poison Caps (pathfinder) would be fine, though it's preferred to be either permanent poison or charges per day if magical, reapplying poison can be a pain especially because it'd just be an added feature, not the main part.

So, what's the best way to build this? What classes/race/templates/magic items, etc.?

Almost anything is allowed, Core, 3rd Party, Pathfinder, Homebrew, whatever. But please avoid the classes with combat maneuvers/stances and mysteries as I have not gotten around to comprehending those.

As a side note, the BBEG has the following feats: Corpsecrafter, Bolster Resistance, Deadly Chill, Destruction Retribution, Nimble Bones. He is also a level 20 Dread Necromancer, so be sure to add those into the build, and anything else to boost it, for some more added fun.

Thanks in advance.

Edit: Bolded the important things that I want the most, also, please check the other posts I've made in this thread to take note of anything else I say, I'll try to highlight important parts in those as well.

[Inevitability]

Undead can definitely be poisonous. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) Just look at the Nightcrawler.

[Death_Lord12]

Undead can definitely be poisonous. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm) Just look at the Nightcrawler.
Cool thanks for pointing that out. So, anyone got suggestions on the build?

[Inevitability]

How about a bone creature kobold rogue 5/assassin 6/fang of lolth 9?

Take Draconic Tail, Craven, Shadow Blade, Martial Study (whatever) and Martial Stance (assassin's stance) as feats.

You get 11d6+20 points of sneak attack damage and can make a bite attack, a tail attack, a claw attack, four spider-leg-claw attacks and three iterative attacks with your normal weapon per turn. Also, if you attack from hiding (which should be easy enough for a kobold rogue) all of these can be death attacks. Oh, and all of these attacks get your dexterity bonus to damage.

The necromancer can raise the basic creature with a simple Create Undead.

[A_S]

How about a bone creature kobold rogue 5/assassin 6/fang of lolth 9?

Take Draconic Tail, Craven, Shadow Blade, Martial Study (whatever) and Martial Stance (assassin's stance) as feats.

You get 11d6+20 points of sneak attack damage and can make a bite attack, a tail attack, a claw attack, four spider-leg-claw attacks and three iterative attacks with your normal weapon per turn. Also, if you attack from hiding (which should be easy enough for a kobold rogue) all of these can be death attacks. Oh, and all of these attacks get your dexterity bonus to damage.

The necromancer can raise the basic creature with a simple Create Undead.
Worth double-checking whether the character can benefit from Craven. The feat has "cannot be immune to fear" as a prerequisite. Both the Undead and Vermin types are immune to mind-affecting stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm), and all fear is mind-affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm). This means that the character would be de-facto immune to fear, but some DM's might rule that because the immunity isn't specifically to fear, it doesn't count.

Ask your DM.

[KillingAScarab]

There was an Iron Chef thread for Fang of Lolth. The builds were all linked to in this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19269845&postcount=97), but most took the full 10 levels. Except for Karluthu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19269288&postcount=94).

[DrMotives]

I would think the type pyramid, while not entirely hard & fast, would still be the RAW justification for the 10th level not changing from undead to vermin. That really shouldn't be an issue.

[Inevitability]

I would think the type pyramid, while not entirely hard & fast, would still be the RAW justification for the 10th level not changing from undead to vermin. That really shouldn't be an issue.

Type pyramid was overruled by the 3.5 Monster Manual rules. Besides, it's not like the final level would grant anything useful.

[Death_Lord12]

How about a bone creature kobold rogue 5/assassin 6/fang of lolth 9?

Take Draconic Tail, Craven, Shadow Blade, Martial Study (whatever) and Martial Stance (assassin's stance) as feats.

You get 11d6+20 points of sneak attack damage and can make a bite attack, a tail attack, a claw attack, four spider-leg-claw attacks and three iterative attacks with your normal weapon per turn. Also, if you attack from hiding (which should be easy enough for a kobold rogue) all of these can be death attacks. Oh, and all of these attacks get your dexterity bonus to damage.

The necromancer can raise the basic creature with a simple Create Undead.
Bone creature, definitely want this template in the build.

As for the kobold and draconic tail parts, I have two issues.
1. As I said in the original post, I want the build to be focused on spiders and undead, and a dragon tail just doesn't seem to fit into that.
2. Small size, while looking at the Bone template, I think I've decided that I want this build to be of Large of Huge size, it gives off more of a boss feel to me and it helps greatly with that template, among other things. I am aware that this will give penalties to stealth rolls, but I am not too concerned about it. I said I wanted some stealth and hit-and-run but really, now that I think about it, stealth would be good for some sneak attack but is not my main goal with this build, and also, I don't really need hit-and-run tactics, all I need is a way that my party of 12ish Players doesn't kill this guy before he gets to take his turn, and I don't want it to focus on initiative (mostly via Improved Initiative because I feel like the feat can be used for something more useful, boosting Dex never hurts 'cause of AC)

Now, one thing I do want, is natural weapons use. The bite is already provided from Fang of Lolth, and I am thinking of giving it the Poison Fangs graft to give it poison. Claw attacks are provided by the Spider Limbs, as well as the Bone creature template. So if there are any other natural weapon suggestions (again sticking to the theme of undead spider), or ways to boost/use them more, please tell.

Something I had actually completely forgotten to put in the original post, is this guy needs backup. I'm thinking summoning other spiders, swarms or monstrous or whatever, just something to help him out. In this encounter it's going to be a fighter-like minotaur, an insane pyromancer, and this guy, and while I deem them all as "bosses", I feel like more backup is needed like lower CR stuff, especially because I won't be putting all of these guys in at once (not right away anyways). So, what are good ways to get this guy to summon some spider friends


Worth double-checking whether the character can benefit from Craven. The feat has "cannot be immune to fear" as a prerequisite. Both the Undead and Vermin types are immune to mind-affecting stuff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm), and all fear is mind-affecting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm). This means that the character would be de-facto immune to fear, but some DM's might rule that because the immunity isn't specifically to fear, it doesn't count.

Ask your DM.
I am the DM, and I agree that craven wouldn't work.

I edited the original post to make some things I want the most stand out more via bold, just as I did with this post.

Thanks for the help so far, the Bone creature template was a great suggestion, though I'm still looking for more suggestions about classes and feats, and of course don't forget to suggest magic items (though keep in mind, I want this guy to use only natural attacks).

[DrMotives]

Thematically fun is the feat "spit venom" from serpent kingdoms. Takes a poison bite attack, and allows you to use a standard action to spit the poison as a 30' ranged touch attack, poison is upgraded to contact poison. It's also the base for a couple other feats, one doubles that range, the other makes it into a cone-shaped area attack.

[Inevitability]

Bone creature, definitely want this template in the build.

As for the kobold and draconic tail parts, I have two issues.
1. As I said in the original post, I want the build to be focused on spiders and undead, and a dragon tail just doesn't seem to fit into that.
2. Small size, while looking at the Bone template, I think I've decided that I want this build to be of Large of Huge size, it gives off more of a boss feel to me and it helps greatly with that template, among other things. I am aware that this will give penalties to stealth rolls, but I am not too concerned about it. I said I wanted some stealth and hit-and-run but really, now that I think about it, stealth would be good for some sneak attack but is not my main goal with this build, and also, I don't really need hit-and-run tactics, all I need is a way that my party of 12ish Players doesn't kill this guy before he gets to take his turn, and I don't want it to focus on initiative (mostly via Improved Initiative because I feel like the feat can be used for something more useful, boosting Dex never hurts 'cause of AC)

Now, one thing I do want, is natural weapons use. The bite is already provided from Fang of Lolth, and I am thinking of giving it the Poison Fangs graft to give it poison. Claw attacks are provided by the Spider Limbs, as well as the Bone creature template. So if there are any other natural weapon suggestions (again sticking to the theme of undead spider), or ways to boost/use them more, please tell.

Something I had actually completely forgotten to put in the original post, is this guy needs backup. I'm thinking summoning other spiders, swarms or monstrous or whatever, just something to help him out. In this encounter it's going to be a fighter-like minotaur, an insane pyromancer, and this guy, and while I deem them all as "bosses", I feel like more backup is needed like lower CR stuff, especially because I won't be putting all of these guys in at once (not right away anyways). So, what are good ways to get this guy to summon some spider friends


I am the DM, and I agree that craven wouldn't work.

I edited the original post to make some things I want the most stand out more via bold, just as I did with this post.

Thanks for the help so far, the Bone creature template was a great suggestion, though I'm still looking for more suggestions about classes and feats, and of course don't forget to suggest magic items (though keep in mind, I want this guy to use only natural attacks).

You could replace the kobold by a dragonborn half-ogre. Drop the dexterity feat chains and go strength-based sneak attack instead.

[Death_Lord12]

Thematically fun is the feat "spit venom" from serpent kingdoms.
Yeah I've considered taking spit venom, not sure yet.


You could replace the kobold by a dragonborn half-ogre. Drop the dexterity feat chains and go strength-based sneak attack instead.
I looked at dragonborn and don't find it very useful, the Con bonus is worthless, as I have no Con, I hate Dex penalties 'cause I like my AC good, not really sure how having dragonblood subtype and adult age is helpful, I'm going for undead spider so those seem to not really fit the theme, No one in the party is playing a dragon so the dodge bonus won't be useful, undead are already immune to fear, really the only thing useful I find on this is the Mind Draconic Aspect, but I don't take templates for a single bonus.

As for half-ogre, I don't like the Dex and Int penalty, and again the Con bonus is useless, and I am thinking of using a modified version of this race (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blackheart_(3.5e_Race)) along with a magic item to grow it to Huge size.

One of the things I'm having trouble deciding is class levels, I'm kind of thinking a rogueish/fighter mix, I want it to be fast and remain hidden until it wants to come out. Any advice?

[Inevitability]

dragonblood subtype

For this reason: draconic tail. It's an extra attack to your full attack routine, which on this build averages to at least sixty extra points of damage (35 SA, 20 craven, 5 basic damage). That's pretty huge.

And you know that race you linked is homebrew? Worse, it's D&D Wiki homebrew. Worse2, it's poorly-fluffed D&D Wiki homebrew. Worst, it's poorly-fluffed, mechanically impossible D&D Wiki homebrew.