A houserule question and an item-pricing query

[Jowgen]

I am wondering about two rather unrelated things (one from a DM perspective the other as a player), but don't want to make two threads.

1. What do you think are some good houserules for limiting the number of free actions a character can take per turn? I've never had to apply a cheese-blocker of this variety, but I might have to at some point soon, so I'm weighing my options. At the moment, I'm considering either making it x+Dex mod, or alternatively, make it so that free actions must be made as part or instead of another action (e.g. 1 free action per attack/move/swift/etc.); but I am uncertain.

2. I'm wondering about making an item out of the Quicker than the Eye (Cityscape web) and Umbral Hand mysteries, as to permit ranged sleight of hand checks. How to price this is the question.

I know there are mystery-based items, but I am fuzzy on the rules on how the spell-level-based item price guidelines apply to them. Furthermore, Umbral Hand is essentially a slightly better Mage Hand, which has a non-standard-priced at will item in the Hand of the Mage. Then there is the simpler question of what the ability to do SoH at range should be worth.

[Troacctid]

1. What do you think are some good houserules for limiting the number of free actions a character can take per turn? I've never had to apply a cheese-blocker of this variety, but I might have to at some point soon, so I'm weighing my options. At the moment, I'm considering either making it x+Dex mod, or alternatively, make it so that free actions must be made as part or instead of another action (e.g. 1 free action per attack/move/swift/etc.); but I am uncertain.
Eyeball it. Setting a hard limit will probably just cause more problems than it solves. My rule of thumb is that your free actions shouldn't take more than 6 seconds.


2. I'm wondering about making an item out of the Quicker than the Eye (Cityscape web) and Umbral Hand mysteries, as to permit ranged sleight of hand checks. How to price this is the question.

I know there are mystery-based items, but I am fuzzy on the rules on how the spell-level-based item price guidelines apply to them. Furthermore, Umbral Hand is essentially a slightly better Mage Hand, which has a non-standard-priced at will item in the Hand of the Mage. Then there is the simpler question of what the ability to do SoH at range should be worth.
Well, a fully charged wand of a 1st level mystery at CL 1 costs 750 gp, same as for a spell. Your item is better, so it should cost more. That's a start.

[Immabozo]

Eyeball it. Setting a hard limit will probably just cause more problems than it solves. My rule of thumb is that your free actions shouldn't take more than 6 seconds.

Unless you have chicken infested. You cannot stop infinite chickens!

[Lorrdernie]

I am wondering about two rather unrelated things (one from a DM perspective the other as a player), but don't want to make two threads.

1. What do you think are some good houserules for limiting the number of free actions a character can take per turn? I've never had to apply a cheese-blocker of this variety, but I might have to at some point soon, so I'm weighing my options. At the moment, I'm considering either making it x+Dex mod, or alternatively, make it so that free actions must be made as part or instead of another action (e.g. 1 free action per attack/move/swift/etc.); but I am uncertain.


I think something pretty important here is why you think you might have to limit free actions? What is being done with free actions that is a problem?

[Gildedragon]

For the quicker than shadow effect: price it like an odd bonus to sleight of hand: 200*bonus^2 tied to the hands slot.

Umbral hand:
All day long: 8000gpish

Total: an all day hand that you can do sleight of hand with: 15,000gpish
The use is fairly niche... So maybe drop the skill bonus and have it go for 9000gpish

If it is triggered with a command word. How long you see the effect lasting? Or is it a limited number of times a day it can be summoned?

[nedz]

I am wondering about two rather unrelated things (one from a DM perspective the other as a player), but don't want to make two threads.

1. What do you think are some good houserules for limiting the number of free actions a character can take per turn? I've never had to apply a cheese-blocker of this variety, but I might have to at some point soon, so I'm weighing my options. At the moment, I'm considering either making it x+Dex mod, or alternatively, make it so that free actions must be made as part or instead of another action (e.g. 1 free action per attack/move/swift/etc.); but I am uncertain.
I've never known this to be a problem - there are practical limits to what you can do with free actions, after which the player is achieving nothing ...

Unless you have chicken infested. You cannot stop infinite chickens!
Silly cheese aside - but then there are cheesier things.

[Jay R]

I echo Lorrdernie's question. What's the actual issue?

If your players are abusing free actions, tell us how they are doing so, and we can offer a solution to the actual problem.

If they aren't, and you set a limit of any sort, they will start trying to come up with that many free actions each round.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And if it is, let us know in what way it's broken before we can give any useful advice on fixing it.

[Jowgen]

Thanks for the input everyone thus far.

The free action abuse worry isn't about anything specific. I was preusing the list of Free Actions in game (Spell component and ammunition drawing, dropping item/prone, Fast Mounting and Dismoutning, Standing from Prone via Tumble, Quickdraw, etc.) as well as uses for free action sleight of hand; and then figured I should probably have a "reasonable limit" ruling on hand, just in case. I'm not expecting someone to go for Chicken Infested or A Lighting Thief build; but still.


For the quicker than shadow effect: price it like an odd bonus to sleight of hand: 200*bonus^2 tied to the hands slot.

Umbral hand:
All day long: 8000gpish

Total: an all day hand that you can do sleight of hand with: 15,000gpish
The use is fairly niche... So maybe drop the skill bonus and have it go for 9000gpish

If it is triggered with a command word. How long you see the effect lasting? Or is it a limited number of times a day it can be summoned?

I had not noticed that the +5 SoH bonus wasn't just competence; yeah, that is certainly worth an extra boost to the price tag. 8000 for an umbral hand item when regular mage hand only costs 900 seems a bit too steep though. At the base CL, the weight for both is the same, and while it might work on magic items, those get a save at a laughably low DC.

How niche the ability for ranged SoH really is, and what it should be worth, I'm not sure though. Other than Ranged Ledgermain and the breath weapon of a Dwemervore dragon, I know of nothing else in game that gives something similar.

[Troacctid]

I would probably leave off the +5 and price it at around 3000 gp. Cheaper, if you put a daily use limit on it.