Haste vs. fireball?

[dnd2016]

A sorcerer in our group is picking his 3rd level spell. Haste or fireball? Haste is better in my opinion,especially for the twinned factor.Help me make a case for haste over fireball. I know all the pluses but my group might need to hear it from others

[busterswd]

They're both good, honestly. There are times where you just want that healthy chunk of AoE damage to make combat a lot simpler, so it's not the end of the world if he goes Fireball. Fireball is also non concentration; there's a lot of spells vying for that.

That being said:

-You can always use Haste, no worries about friendly fire.
-There are a lot of AoE Blaster spells available in other spell levels. Haste is fairly unique in what it does.
-There are no saves against Haste as it's a buff; dex saves, evasion and fire resistance will screw a Fireball over.
-As you mentioned, Haste works better with metamagic.
-Haste is a force multiplier; as your allies get stronger, so does the spell. Fireball without upscaling never gets better.

[Dalebert]

He can get both by dropping another spell he knows. My sorlock has both. Because he's draconic gold dragon sorc, he gets to add his cha bonus to fire damage. That makes it kind of nuts not to have fireball.

What I like about twinned Haste, is it helps me to maintain concentration when I have it on myself as well. I can use the extra action to disengage or hide and I can move crazy fast to avoid enemies, not to mention the +2 AC. You can use it defensively and offensively at the same time. Scarey baddy closes with you. You cast haste on yourself and the tank adn then immediately use your extra action to disengage and get lots of space between you adn the baddy while the tank is now buffed for attacking the baddy.

[Specter]

Concentration is a big factor for Haste. If he's got more than 15% chance of failing his con save in DC10, go Fireball instead.

[Drackolus]

Really, the only time you shouldn't have both is if you're a lightning draconic sorc and you can take lightning bolt over it, or you don't have twinned spell. OR you're a wild sorc with heighten and twinned for control or something and you have an evocation wizard in the party, and maybe even then.
That said, the usefulness of haste (and twinned) diminishes greatly depending on who's in your party. Barbarians and Paladins benefit massively from the buff. Fighters, rangers, and rogues after that. If you have two of barbarians and paladins, haste is a no-brainer. If you have two of those five, then it's still a great spell. If you only have one fighter and none of the rest, twinning it becomes less useful (though, it's not terrible to throw it on yourself for the same reason you always want to bless yourself - +2 ac and double speed really help you protect yourself from losing concentration.)

[dnd2016]

We have a paladin and ranger with SS

[MaxWilson]

A sorcerer in our group is picking his 3rd level spell. Haste or fireball? Haste is better in my opinion,especially for the twinned factor.Help me make a case for haste over fireball. I know all the pluses but my group might need to hear it from others

I find Haste unexciting. It takes a couple of rounds for Haste to pay off from an action economy perspective, and it costs your concentration, and 5 spell points, and then there's the downside if you lose concentration before the fight is over.

There's generally better things to spend your concentration on. Hypnotic Pattern for one.

But there are niches where Haste does excel. It's good for net use, for free hiding, and for kiting, and if you have someone in your party like a Rogue with a single big attack, Haste can double his damage and pay off much sooner than normal. But you have to weigh that against the opportunity cost of having the Sorcerer more directly involved in the fight in other ways.

Verdict: it depends.

[Dalebert]

It only takes 3 sorc points; not 5, to twin it.


Verdict: it depends.

Yeah, that's really always the case. There are times when one or the other will save your bacon. Fireball needs a bunch of enemies in a tight space who aren't reisistant to fire. If anything, Haste is more broadly usable. Haste will buff offensively and also help to defend. But Haste feels wasted if you could just wipe out a bunch of the enemy with a fireball or if the combat doesn't seem like it will take long.

[BrianDavion]

it depends partly on your DM, if all you ever fight are hoards of goblins fireball'll be priceless, but if your DM never has you fight more then a single creature it's ofg questionable use

[Slipperychicken]

I'd get haste. You can always use it, and it automatically scales with your best fighter's per-attack damage output. There are a lot of times when I wouldn't want to cast a fireball (i.e. collateral damage, party member in the area, fire resistance/immunity), but haste is always helpful as long as your fighter is doing his thing. When I'm not sure what to cast, but I know my party needs some help, I caste haste. Just keep yourself safe so you don't lose concentration.

[bid]

He can get both by dropping another spell he knows.
That is the only correct answer.

Remember that at level 6 he can drop either one and revert to his current spell.

[Dalebert]

That is the only correct answer.

Remember that at level 6 he can drop either one and revert to his current spell.

Or he could use the new spell he gains to get back whatever he gave up so he could have both fireball and haste.

[Vogonjeltz]

A sorcerer in our group is picking his 3rd level spell. Haste or fireball? Haste is better in my opinion,especially for the twinned factor.Help me make a case for haste over fireball. I know all the pluses but my group might need to hear it from others

Figure out the most valuable use of the haste bonus each round. Assuming it's less damage than fireball against however many targets, divide the estimated fireball damage by the estimated haste damage to determine the number of rounds that haste must be active to outdamage fireball.

My guess is 4+ rounds minimum.

[MaxWilson]

It only takes 3 sorc points; not 5, to twin it.

Spell points != sorcery points. A 3rd level spell costs 5 spell points to cast.

[SharkForce]

haste is not bad.

but it is probably not better than being able to spend concentration on web, or hypnotic pattern, or stinking cloud, which does far more than just letting someone make an extra attack or move.

if haste did not require your concentration, i'd say that the sorcerer would be crazy to not know it. but it does. personally, i would rather lock down half a dozen enemies from being able to do anything at all rather than give one (or two) allies haste at a rather high cost.

now, haste has it's uses, certainly. it works in situations where your offensive spells do not. but, apart from twin polymorph (which is one of the rare situations where i feel like your concentration actually is better spent on a buff than on an offensive spell), most of the time you should be casting attack spells.

also, the person who said rogues benefit less than barbarians or paladins is just dead wrong. rogues are the weapon user that benefits the most from haste, and nobody else even comes close, due to how sneak attack works. rogues can use the haste action to attack (and potentially activate any bonus action attacks that rely on the attack action if needed), and then use their regular action to ready another attack which will happen on someone else's turn... and, being on someone else's turn, they can get sneak attack on that one also. *nobody* gains more damage from haste than a rogue.

[Specter]

haste is not bad.

but it is probably not better than being able to spend concentration on web, or hypnotic pattern, or stinking cloud, which does far more than just letting someone make an extra attack or move.

if haste did not require your concentration, i'd say that the sorcerer would be crazy to not know it. but it does. personally, i would rather lock down half a dozen enemies from being able to do anything at all rather than give one (or two) allies haste at a rather high cost.

now, haste has it's uses, certainly. it works in situations where your offensive spells do not. but, apart from twin polymorph (which is one of the rare situations where i feel like your concentration actually is better spent on a buff than on an offensive spell), most of the time you should be casting attack spells.

also, the person who said rogues benefit less than barbarians or paladins is just dead wrong. rogues are the weapon user that benefits the most from haste, and nobody else even comes close, due to how sneak attack works. rogues can use the haste action to attack (and potentially activate any bonus action attacks that rely on the attack action if needed), and then use their regular action to ready another attack which will happen on someone else's turn... and, being on someone else's turn, they can get sneak attack on that one also. *nobody* gains more damage from haste than a rogue.

Actually, Paladins are at least as good, since they can smite for at least the same damage without anybody around.

[Laserlight]

Sometimes you'll have a short fight against a crowd of minions, and sometimes you'll have a lengthy battle against the one BBEG, so get both.

[ClintACK]

rogues are the weapon user that benefits the most from haste, and nobody else even comes close, due to how sneak attack works. rogues can use the haste action to attack (and potentially activate any bonus action attacks that rely on the attack action if needed), and then use their regular action to ready another attack which will happen on someone else's turn... and, being on someone else's turn, they can get sneak attack on that one also. *nobody* gains more damage from haste than a rogue.

Mind blown.

I had always just assumed it was one sneak attack *per round*. But you're right. It says "per turn".

Suddenly, I'm trying to imagine ways to get yet another sneak attack in with a reaction, on an enemy's turn. Sentinel feat for a melee rogue?

Oh. Wow. The synergy with Battle Master's Commander's Strike is pretty obvious.

Is this standard for rogues? Has it been confirmed/errata'd anywhere?

[MaxWilson]

Mind blown.

I had always just assumed it was one sneak attack *per round*. But you're right. It says "per turn".

Suddenly, I'm trying to imagine ways to get yet another sneak attack in with a reaction, on an enemy's turn. Sentinel feat for a melee rogue?

Oh. Wow. The synergy with Battle Master's Commander's Strike is pretty obvious.

Is this standard for rogues? Has it been confirmed/errata'd anywhere?

It's funny you should mention Sentinel, because

(1) Yes, Sentinel is one of the standard ways for melee rogues to get two sneak attacks per round; and
(2) In the opposite direction, this same "ready an action" trick is likewise how you get around Sentinel's ability to turn off Disengage: you just move, and if Sentinel hits you ready a move instead of an action. Since Sentinel only turns off your move for the current turn, you still get to move away/past.

There are some other fun tricks that work on other people's turns too. My favorite is the fact that the Necromancer's Grim Harvest gives you HP once per turn, not once per round. Cast Grim Harvest on a coop full of 2 cp chickens and one round later you'll have all of your HP back...

[SharkForce]

Actually, Paladins are at least as good, since they can smite for at least the same damage without anybody around.

not exactly.

paladins can expend very limited resources to smite. they should only be using spells for smiting if they urgently need burst, or potentially if they get a crit and can double the damage. if the paladin doesn't have (or doesn't want to use) their highest level spell slots, it won't be keeping up with rogue sneak attack damage at all.

and if they urgently need burst, the sorcerer should not be casting haste, they should be casting something like scorching ray, because that is going to get the burst much earlier. which is kinda the whole point of burst.

[RickAllison]

Going off the rogue discussion, Haste is great for characters that have great uses of normal actions, but also have good bonus action options that are reliant on the Attack option.

A Monk with Haste can use any action he wishes with his main one while still getting his Martial Arts/FoB off his Haste Attack. TWF and Crossbow Expert also go well with it if the target has a good reason to use their action for something else.

It's great to cast on a Druid as well! Call Lightning is a rather potent spell that costs his main action. For beast forms with great riders on attacks, he can use both to great effect. The Mammoth is perhaps the best example of this! The Druid uses his CL to deal a little AoE damage, moves 20 feet toward someone and makes a Gore attack using the Haste Attack action, then gets to make the stomp as a bonus action. It is less useful as a combination with a creature with Multiattack (no Giant Scorpion), but is great for those beasts that get their CR from single, larger attacks.

[Dralnu]

I'd pick Fireball every time. The spell is simply amazing: huge damage, big radius, huge range. It's the king of AOE at those levels and for many levels to come.

Plus, as someone who is playing a Sorcerer in a 2+ year campaign, rolling 8d6 is one of life's simple pleasures.

[Dalebert]

Don't get tunnel vision and just compare potential damage output. Fireball is all about damage; the end. Haste, meanwhile, adds damage but also adds AC, maneuverability, and defensive potential (if needed). It's just incredibly versatile. Fireball will probably do better damage when you have lots of targets. Against just one or two large targets, Haste will probably out-damage FB and still have the versatility if needed.

[Giant2005]

Don't downplay fireball. Admit to its strengths - tell him that it is great against hordes of mooks, but then point out the biggest, baddest, scariest single enemy in your campaign. Point out that Fireball is of very little use against that thing whereas Haste would be hugely valuable. Let his fear of that big bad make the decision you want him to make.

[SharkForce]

Don't get tunnel vision and just compare potential damage output. Fireball is all about damage; the end. Haste, meanwhile, adds damage but also adds AC, maneuverability, and defensive potential (if needed). It's just incredibly versatile. Fireball will probably do better damage when you have lots of targets. Against just one or two large targets, Haste will probably out-damage FB and still have the versatility if needed.

against just one or two large targets, you use a different spell that takes away actions from your enemies. you don't use haste *or* fireball, you banish, or hold person, or phantasmal force, or otherwise neutralize a target. +2 AC and the ability to dash and disengage are not as useful as the enemy not attacking you.

[jas61292]

I personally find Haste to be one of the more overrated spells in the game. Its great, sure, but its not THAT great. In fact, while the buffs it gives are very strong, single target buffs in general are very mediocre. They just don't compare, action economy wise, to other options.

If you have a lot of enemies, generally AoE spells will typically deal with them faster.

Against single enemies, debuffs are better than buffs, since action economy is key, and debuffing 100% of their actions is better than buffing any percentage (below 100%) of your own (technically, this is true regardless of the number of enemies, if you can get 100% of them, but it is rare for you to be able to reliably do that with multiple enemies, often due to multiple saving throws).

The best situations for something like hast tends to be when there are multiple enemies, but not a lot. That said, it certainly faces competition from lots of other spells still. Depending on the situation and your party composition, it can be awesome; potentially it could even be the best spell you could cast. But I find such situations are not too frequent. Furthermore, Haste specifically has a built in downside for losing concentration, which really sucks. Even if it is unlikely to ever happen, if it does, it could easily cause someone to die.

Yet, despite all that I said, it is still a great spell with many application. You will never feel like it is a bad thing to have.

What you will feel, however, is bored. Cause you are using your actions to make others better. That alone isn't bad (its what all buffing is), but specifically, it doesn't just make them better, but makes them get more actions, making them take longer, and taking yourself out of the spotlight for a greater percentage of the time. Furthermore, if you have both twin spell, and two melee characters in the group, they will likely, through shame if not through action, force you to never cast any other 3rd level spell again. And that is boring. Of course, this is just my opinion, based on my experiences. Other people may like that kind of play style. They are entitled to think that. And I am entitled to think they are weird for it.

So yeah, Haste is plenty good in certain situations, but its just not fun. But you know what is fun? Fireball.

Though, personally, I've always been more of a Lightningbolt fan myself.

[famousringo]

I find Haste unexciting. It takes a couple of rounds for Haste to pay off from an action economy perspective, and it costs your concentration, and 5 spell points, and then there's the downside if you lose concentration before the fight is over.

There's generally better things to spend your concentration on. Hypnotic Pattern for one.

But there are niches where Haste does excel. It's good for net use, for free hiding, and for kiting, and if you have someone in your party like a Rogue with a single big attack, Haste can double his damage and pay off much sooner than normal. But you have to weigh that against the opportunity cost of having the Sorcerer more directly involved in the fight in other ways.

Verdict: it depends.

This has been my disappointment with Haste. Despite being a versatile and always applicable buff, it just not going to turn the tide in dramatic fashion like a well-placed Fireball or Hypnotic Pattern, or even a level 2 single target save or suck.

I one-shotted an ecounter with a Twinned Phantasmal Force, and I doubt Haste will ever do something like that for me. I'm more concerned that Haste's tide-turning moment will arrive when my concentration gets disrupted.

But hey, Haste does make friends in a way that a Fireball's collateral damage never will.

[Pex]

I find it interesting how often people pish posh fire damage because oh so many monsters are resistant or immune to it yet whenever the greatness of Fireball is discussed resistance and immunity is nary mentioned.

[hymer]

I find it interesting how often people pish posh fire damage because oh so many monsters are resistant or immune to it yet whenever the greatness of Fireball is discussed resistance and immunity is nary mentioned.

Isn't that just basic rhetoric? Play up the strengths of what you advocate, and don't mention or downplay the weaknesses.

[djreynolds]

Fireball. Fireball. Kill them before they kill you. 8d6 fireball AoE vs 2d10 firebolt maybe 2 guys if you twin it.

When you need it, you will wish you had it. Haste is very nice, but you can wait a level. 4d6 because of resistance is still better than 2 firebolts, which get halved as well.

You get a new spell every level, and in theory you could exchange out a 2nd level or 1st level and select both. Perhaps you have the sleep spell, and it has seen better days, lose it and take haste. And select fireball as your new spell.

[Dalebert]

against just one or two large targets, you use a different spell that takes away actions from your enemies. you don't use haste *or* fireball, you banish, or hold person, or phantasmal force, or otherwise neutralize a target. +2 AC and the ability to dash and disengage are not as useful as the enemy not attacking you.

I couldn't disagree more. You're talking crowd control in a 1 or 2 target situation. That's actually a great time for Haste. Your party already outnumbers the enemy so pounding them down with extra actions when they already don't get many attacks and those can be absorbed well enough is a good strategy. Fireball is for when you have a lots of enemies that are ideally situated and you have the jump on them. Crowd control spells like the ones you mentioned would be for when you feel outnumbered but Fireball isn't ideal perhaps due to positioning (Hold Person being an exception because it's brutal offensively to wail on someone paralyzed) or for really powerful or heavy-hitting creatures where you REALLY just want to deal with one at a time like giants. Hypnotic Pattern is great for really large numbers of creatures.

Half the time with Fireball, you'll get excited for the ideal situation of enemies positioned in a cluster but they will get the jump with initiative and close and suddenly it's far less than ideal (unless you're an Evoker). At higher levels against some tougher mobs, particularly if they have good dex saves or resistance, the damage from fireball doesn't seem so great at all and can feel wasted.


I personally find Haste to be one of the more overrated spells in the game. Its great, sure, but its not THAT great. In fact, while the buffs it gives are very strong, single target buffs in general are very mediocre. They just don't compare, action economy wise, to other options.

Yes, until you twin it.


Against single enemies, debuffs are better than buffs, since action economy is key, and debuffing 100% of their actions is better than buffing any percentage (below 100%) of your own

Unless they save. Haste doesn't give the enemy an opportunity to completely ignore and waste your action and spell slot. The best times to debuff, I find, are for the really large numbers for things like Hypnotic Pattern. The odds are in your favor then. SOME will likely fail the more enemies there are in which case you're exactly right. The action economy favors the debuff.


Furthermore, Haste specifically has a built in downside for losing concentration, which really sucks. Even if it is unlikely to ever happen, if it does, it could easily cause someone to die.

This is technically true but seems exaggerated and almost paranoid. It should definitely be taken into account but there are so many ways to ameliorate this risk--being a sorcerer with con save proficiency, twinning Haste onto yourself, getting inspiration from the bard to help with concentration saves, etc. But it's going to be rare that one action is the difference between life and death and that can happen all kinds of ways. You can cast a spell that has no effect due to a save, you can get counter-spelled, enemies can paralyze you, or you could just miss with all your attacks against a tough enemy which are all essentially the same outcome--a lost/wasted action. With Haste, the net result is still very likely a non-negative impact on total actions, e.g. you've gotten extra actions up to that point and now you lose one action.


What you will feel, however, is bored. Cause you are using your actions to make others better. That alone isn't bad (its what all buffing is), but specifically, it doesn't just make them better, but makes them get more actions, making them take longer, and taking yourself out of the spotlight for a greater percentage of the time.

This is a solid point. The game is about fun. If you have fun being blasty and you get immense satisfaction when the DM leans over right after you cast and removes several enemy figures from the table, then it's hard to argue not to do that. Happened with my sorc the other day (who has both spells). This is also why when I cast Haste, I often twin it on myself as well. I think this depends on player style somewhat. Sometimes the melee types will show immense gratitude and truly acknowledge how much you helped them, practically offering sexual favors after the fight. *ahem* If they're smart, they will. Even so, doing one thing at the start of combat and then just sitting around while the melee gets to roll countless D20s can get dull.

[famousringo]

I couldn't disagree more. You're talking crowd control in a 1 or 2 target situation. That's actually a great time for Haste. Your party already outnumbers the enemy so pounding them down with extra actions when they already don't get many attacks and those can be absorbed well enough is a good strategy.

He's right though. For a two enemy encounter, the math doesn't work out.

The five player, level 5 party I play with typically gets 10 attacks in a round. So assuming the two bad guys obligingly attack the Hasted people, the buff boosts party DPR and reduces incoming DPR by about 20%. Not bad. Unless Haste gets disrupted, then we lose up to 7 attacks and the party loses 70% of DPR for that round, wiping out three rounds worth of damage gained from Haste.

A twinned save or suck like Suggestion, assuming even odds on the saving throw, has a 25% chance of failing completely, a 50% chance of cutting enemy effectiveness in half, and a 25% chance of basically winning the encounter outright. The average scenario is at least as good as Haste, and the upside is a huge win while Haste operates only at the margins. The downside is still better than Haste's downside, since a failed Haste spell can actually be worse than doing nothing. And this is a low ball estimate, since spells targeting mental stats usually have a better than 50% chance to hit.

So while you're waiting for the investment in Haste to pay off and hoping the market doesn't crash, a nice level 2 save or suck is offering better returns, faster, with less risk, and a lower investment of resources.


Unless they save. Haste doesn't give the enemy an opportunity to completely ignore and waste your action and spell slot.


That's a misconception. The granted attacks from Haste can still miss, and the AC bonus may not make the difference. Unless you're after the mobility, Haste simply offers more saving throws for lower stakes. Well, except for your concentration save. That's a pretty high stakes chance to waste not only your action and spell slot, but your team's actions as well.

Like I said before, what's good about Haste is that it's always applicable (Hold Person, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force may not be), and that your friends love you for it. But on a caster without Twin, I wouldn't even bother with it.

[MrStabby]

I would recommend fireball over haste.

If haste looks good then it is probably because you have a high proportion of barbarians, rogues and paladins in the party.

However, if you do have a high proportion of these classes in the party then your part strength is in dealing with tough single targets, usually in melee. Whey there is likely to be a big weakness to be closed is in large numbers of weaker enemies and enemies that attack from range. An area of effect, efficient, high damage spell with a good enough range is more useful then it closes these gaps.

Helping make the party better at the kind of encounter it is really good at is probably less needed than making it OK at the kind of encounter it is bad at.

[Gtdead]

Fireball is better than haste at low levels imo. Haste makes your dds better but fireball sets you apart because its an extremely strong aoe spell which comes at a level that other classes cant really compete.

The only class that can do better is cleric with SG. If you have one, consider dropping it. Otherwise id keep it till lvl 11, perhaps more depending on the campaign. Unless of course you encounter too many fire resistances.

By lvl 14 as a drag sorc when you get fly, its way easier to maintain concentration effects and fireball has certainly lost its edge.

[MaxWilson]

This is technically true but seems exaggerated and almost paranoid. It should definitely be taken into account but there are so many ways to ameliorate this risk--being a sorcerer with con save proficiency, twinning Haste onto yourself, getting inspiration from the bard to help with concentration saves, etc. But it's going to be rare that one action is the difference between life and death and that can happen all kinds of ways. You can cast a spell that has no effect due to a save, you can get counter-spelled, enemies can paralyze you, or you could just miss with all your attacks against a tough enemy which are all essentially the same outcome--a lost/wasted action. With Haste, the net result is still very likely a non-negative impact on total actions, e.g. you've gotten extra actions up to that point and now you lose one action.

You start out in the hole though. You lose one turn's worth of action casting Haste; get a fraction of an extra action back every turn; and then lose a full turn's worth of action + bonus action + movement (+ reaction?) when the spell ends.

So I'm not sure how "very likely" that net positive you mention is. It depends.

Edit: yeah, what famousringo said about stock markets.

[ClintACK]

Holy crap. I just reread the 5e Haste. It really feels like the designers saw how incredible 3.5e's Haste was and decided it needed to be nerfed. And then they nerfed it again. And then once more for good measure.

In 3.5e Haste affected the whole party and lasted without concentration. And when it dropped, you just went back to normal speed.

Now it targets just one ally, requires concentration, and comes with a big negative when it ends. And in a long fight (10 rounds) it drops even if you've done everything right, paralyzing your rogue or fighter at the worst possible time.

You can't even cast it in a higher slot to affect more allies, like fly or invisibility.

And the penalty means that unlike any other concentration spell, you can't just decide to drop it when a different concentration spell becomes more advantageous.

Wow. No, thanks.

I understand that 3.5e's Haste was probably too powerful. (Although I thought that was a feature, not a bug -- making the wizard's best option being teamwork that makes his friends feel awesome.) But I think they really overdid it correcting this.

[Laserlight]

Now it targets just one ally

I think the default assumption with Haste is that it's being Twinned by a sorc.

[SharkForce]

yeah, strong crowd control in a 1 or 2 target situation is *more* powerful, not less. if you do it right, you can shut down 100% of the enemy's actions. you just turned something that was supposed to be a difficult fight into a cakewalk. alternately, you can use haste, and probably turn a difficult fight into a marginally less difficult fight.

now, if haste was more low-risk (for example, no drawback on the spell ending) then i can certainly see the argument; haste has a very good chance of doing something, while phantasmal force may or may not do anything at all. but the something that haste does is not remotely close to what the phantasmal force (or hold person, or tasha's uncontrollable hideous laughter, or suggestion, or fear, etc) can do.

and frankly, if you're looking for consistent low-impact actions, why are you playing a sorcerer? you know what else can add 2 attacks (or more) at level 5? another fighter, paladin, or barbarian. they don't have limited spell slots either, and the chance of losing the spell (and your action) is gone.

if you want to have a bit more to throw at the enemy, bring another warrior. if you want to change the battle to be unfair in your favour, bring a spellcaster.

[Mith]

Holy crap. I just reread the 5e Haste. It really feels like the designers saw how incredible 3.5e's Haste was and decided it needed to be nerfed. And then they nerfed it again. And then once more for good measure.

In 3.5e Haste affected the whole party and lasted without concentration. And when it dropped, you just went back to normal speed.

Now it targets just one ally, requires concentration, and comes with a big negative when it ends. And in a long fight (10 rounds) it drops even if you've done everything right, paralyzing your rogue or fighter at the worst possible time.

You can't even cast it in a higher slot to affect more allies, like fly or invisibility.

And the penalty means that unlike any other concentration spell, you can't just decide to drop it when a different concentration spell becomes more advantageous.

Wow. No, thanks.

If you kept the concentration, and brought back the drop to normal speed, I think that would work. Perhaps add that the spell affects up to casting stat mod targets within a specific radius. Casting up a slot adds 1 more target and perhaps increases the range. Twinning would obviously double the number of targets.

Would this work, or too much in the overpowered direction?

[MaxWilson]

If you kept the concentration, and brought back the drop to normal speed, I think that would work. Perhaps add that the spell affects up to casting stat mod targets within a specific radius. Casting up a slot adds 1 more target and perhaps increases the range. Twinning would obviously double the number of targets.

Would this work, or too much in the overpowered direction?

Just leave it. Not every spell is the same in every version of D&D. E.g. Magic Jar in 5E is pretty weak compared to its heyday.

At least Haste no longer magically ages you and forces a system shock roll against instant death. It's not terrible and it has its niche.

[Dalebert]

Twinning would obviously double the number of targets.

You can only twin single-target spells. Right now, the spells that can be scaled up to more targets are only twinnable at their lowest level while they remain single-target.


Would this work, or too much in the overpowered direction?

All the spells and effects in the game have been adjusted for greater balance in this edition. People were constantly complaining about how disproportionately powerful casters were in previous editions. Now they're trying to bring them more in line with the features of other classes. Short answer--yes.

[SharkForce]

basically, we have this uncomfortable problem that has no easy solution.

we need concentration in the game to keep casters from dominating any single fight they choose.

so long as concentration is a thing, buffs lose a ton of value.

so, even the stronger buffs (like haste) tend to fall to the wayside. and generally, when you do get a buff that is worth concentrating on because it will genuinely change the fight pretty much as effectively as an offensive spell (say, polymorph at level 7, for example), it's typically because that buff is overpowered.

now, some buffs you may notice were made to not require concentration. why couldn't haste fall into that category, you ask?

well, 2 reasons.

first, pretty much any buff that increases your numbers is right out. that's important to prevent stacking, which is important to prevent crazy stuff from happening. stuff like 35 AC characters that the strongest monsters in the game can only hit on a natural 20, for example.

secondly, because haste is practically the poster child for "buffs that make a wizard able to do the fighter's job as well as or better than the fighter while having way more extra options than a fighter". that is, spells that do the kinds of things haste does are almost literally the reason we have concentration as a game mechanic in the first place. even if haste didn't have the +2 AC, it can turn a wizard (particularly a bladesinger) into something uncomfortably close to a fighter. let them stack haste with elemental weapon, and it starts to go a bit more downhill.

so, we're pretty much stuck with haste where it is. pretty good for a buff, but probably still not worth using in a tough fight, and unlike, say, the bless spell, not cheap enough to use in semi-tough fights.

[Mith]

Short answer--yes.

Fair enough. I personally agree with the idea behind the Concentration mechanic, but I find it odd that the primary strategy of the spell is twinning it because the alternative of boosting one other party member is seen as sub par to other things you could do with your turns.

[SharkForce]

Fair enough. I personally agree with the idea behind the Concentration mechanic, but I find it odd that the primary strategy of the spell is twinning it because the alternative of boosting one other party member is seen as sub par to other things you could do with your turns.

honestly, i'm not even entirely sold on twinned haste being worth more than concentrating on something else.

spells, and especially concentration spells, are for making a big difference. if what you're doing isn't going to change the entire way the battle works, it probably isn't worth your concentration, and may not even be worth the spell slot. fireball is a situationally good spell because if you can land it on a big group of relatively weak enemies, that changes the entire battle. hold person is a situationally good spell because it can take away actions from small groups of enemies where actions are the most valuable, and magnifies the entire party's damage to the point where the person you hit is pretty much going to just die. haste... well, it's not terrible. but it probably isn't going to change a hard fight into an easy one. the situations where i would recommend it generally speaking involve a fairly high degree of confidence that your other spells simply won't work; you're fighting a rakshasa, or the enemy has ridiculous saves and magic resistance, or you're stuck sitting out of range and all you can do is buff your archer friend who is not out of range, etc.

[famousringo]

honestly, i'm not even entirely sold on twinned haste being worth more than concentrating on something else.

spells, and especially concentration spells, are for making a big difference. if what you're doing isn't going to change the entire way the battle works, it probably isn't worth your concentration, and may not even be worth the spell slot. fireball is a situationally good spell because if you can land it on a big group of relatively weak enemies, that changes the entire battle. hold person is a situationally good spell because it can take away actions from small groups of enemies where actions are the most valuable, and magnifies the entire party's damage to the point where the person you hit is pretty much going to just die. haste... well, it's not terrible. but it probably isn't going to change a hard fight into an easy one. the situations where i would recommend it generally speaking involve a fairly high degree of confidence that your other spells simply won't work; you're fighting a rakshasa, or the enemy has ridiculous saves and magic resistance, or you're stuck sitting out of range and all you can do is buff your archer friend who is not out of range, etc.

I pretty much agree with you, but I think I'll be keeping Haste on my sorcerer for a few reasons, aside from the obvious one of being able to twin it:

1. Limited spell picks. It's nice to have a concentration effect that will always be useful, even if it won't ever turn the tide. Wizards can afford to have the perfect spell for every season, but sorcerers have to pick the most consistently valuable spells or risk not being able to contribute.

2. Flexibility. My party has been gifted with a diverse array of powerful magic weapons (it feels a little Monty Hall, TBH, but the DM says he rolled for it). If we're fighting undead, I can Haste the bard with a Sunblade, if we're fighting dragons, the druid has a bow of dragonslaying. I can Haste the ranger with a Flametongue against anything not fire-resistant, and I can Haste the monk if we ever want to break the sound barrier.

3. Rogue multiclass fun. Instead of a magic weapon, I ended up with Gloves of Thievery, and since I already have Subtle Spell, I can't give up this chance to grab some Arcane Trickster levels and become the ultimate sneakmage. Haste will allow me to enjoy my sneak attack and keep on casting.

[Dalebert]

I can Haste the monk if we ever want to break the sound barrier.

LOL!
Hasted Monk (https://www.facebook.com/1621607931456803/videos/1757532611197667/)

[RickAllison]

LOL!
Hasted Monk (https://www.facebook.com/1621607931456803/videos/1757532611197667/)

Incidentally, good luck on actually breaking it in game. We have tried. I think the only one we got that actually broke the sound barrier was a riding horse with both Boots of Speed and Horseshoes of Speed, the Boon of Speed, as well as numerous other buffs. I think the fasted we got a PC was a wood elf that was a monk/Elkbarian/Bladesinger which with Haste (from someone else), Longstrider, Boots of Speed, Boon of Speed, and an artifact with the major property of boosting walking speed by 10'. Ended up at 368 mph.

[MaxWilson]

now, some buffs you may notice were made to not require concentration. why couldn't haste fall into that category, you ask?

well, 2 reasons.

first, pretty much any buff that increases your numbers is right out. that's important to prevent stacking, which is important to prevent crazy stuff from happening. stuff like 35 AC characters that the strongest monsters in the game can only hit on a natural 20, for example.

That's not quite true. Warding Bond increases your numbers (+1 to saves and AC) and it lasts for an hour without concentration.

[SharkForce]

That's not quite true. Warding Bond increases your numbers (+1 to saves and AC) and it lasts for an hour without concentration.

huh. never noticed that.

well, that probably makes it a tad OP. not sure how i feel about that.

[Dalebert]

That's not quite true. Warding Bond increases your numbers (+1 to saves and AC) and it lasts for an hour without concentration.


huh. never noticed that.

well, that probably makes it a tad OP. not sure how i feel about that.

I don't know about that. It's a pretty mild buff compared to the many benefits of Haste and it comes with a potential big downside of killing off your cleric. Though I admit that's also an upside in the right context, i.e. it's easier to heal yourself than the tank in the middle of a fight, but it can turn and go badly.

[SharkForce]

sending half of the damage to the caster (who is presumably not in melee) is not a disadvantage in many cases for a cleric, and for a life cleric is pretty much free extra healing. if it ever is a disadvantage, you can cancel it, in any event.

and no, it doesn't give quite as much as haste. but it does give stacking bonuses to some very valuable statistics that last for a long time.