Sorceror Build Question

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hi, I don't know much about Pathfinder and haven't frequented this forum, so apologies in advance if it 's a "dumb" question.

I've decided to play a Celestial bloodline Sorceror (don't judge me) and am thinking that its bonus to DR for summoned creatures suggests an emphasis on summoning. However, am I better off simply playing a Summoner, since that class can also do more than just summon?

Thanks!

[Secret Wizard]

Nah, the advantage of the Wizard and the Sorcerer is their massive flexibility.

In any case, if you don't plan to summon at all, you could always take an archetype that replaces it.

Also not sure why would anyone judge you, all bloodlines are good.

[Geddy2112]

Not at all. You can have your arcana be a nice feather in your cap for summons, but also do more, particularly at higher levels, than a summoner.

If you really hate it, and want to play a dwarf or some other wisdom bonus and/or charisma dump, take the empyreal wildblood celestial bloodline and be WIS based over CHA.

Don't feel obligated to summon spam from your bloodline, just take a few summon spells like any good wizard/sorcerer for utility.

[Florian]

The Celestial bloodline is actually not a bad choice when you want to add some party supporting options to a regular sorcerer. It also works very well with adding two levels of Paladin to it.

And no, you´re not forced to use summoning at all, just because the class feature is there, but you should not discount that summoning can be a great force multiplier when done right and plan on getting at least the IV and V version of the spell on your spells known.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Thanks all for your helpful replies so far!

My question is not so much, "Must I summon?" but rather, "If summoning is going to be a significant tool in my arsenal (but not the only one), am I foolish to take celestial sorceror rather than summoner?".

It sounds like the answer is still "no"...?

[Kurald Galain]

It sounds like the answer is still "no"...?

No, it is not foolish. Sorcerer does some things better, summoner does some other things better, and both are very capable classes.

[13ones]

Here's the thing. The summoner is designed to either A)Fill the room with HUNDREDS of bodies at once and overwhelm the encounter with wave after wave of their own men or B)Bring a bigger Monster to the fight. It has other spells such as haste and maze but a Wizard/Sorcerer/Arcanist will always be better at casting them simply because of the higher casting ability.

For example say you've got two characters. Both high enough level to cast maze. For the Sorcerer it would be a 10+8+Charisma mod spell, where a Summoner would be a 10+6+mod spell, simply due to a reduced spell list. "But Bones," I hear you say. "+2 isn't too big a deal, right?" It is! It can make all the difference between a pass or fail. Having played many save or die casters over the years I have lost count of how many times I've ended encounters based on a 1-2 on a DC.

And the fact that a Sorcerer can do so much more is what really makes them solid. You COULD cast Summon Monster 5. Or you could cast...Feeblemind, or Baleful Polymorph, or Shadow Evocation. You see? The greatest strength of a full arcane caster is their ability to literally shape the entire combat.

Let me offer a little advice, however. The Occultist Arcanist and the Summoner are better at Summoning stuff outright. They can do it as a standard, where as it'd take you a full round action. As a spontaneous caster you've got so many more options than standing their for a turn to maybe gate in a couple things. But this is coming from a guy who rarely, if ever, summons anything as a caster.

[Florian]

Thanks all for your helpful replies so far!

My question is not so much, "Must I summon?" but rather, "If summoning is going to be a significant tool in my arsenal (but not the only one), am I foolish to take celestial sorceror rather than summoner?".

It sounds like the answer is still "no"...?

Well, the sorcerer is not the best class at using summoning spells as it must use a full-round action to do it. Other classes have it easier because they start with it being a standard action (Summoner) or have an inherent class feature that can be upgraded via feats to enable that (Cleric).

That can be worked around with suggested one(or two)-level Paladin dip (or one level cleric) as it will grant you the aura class feature, enabling the feat chain of Spell Focus (Conjuration) > Augment Summoning > Sacred Summons to also change summoning into a standard action. A one-level dip into Backfire Adept will serve a similar purpose.

Once you´ve got that covered, a celestial Sorcerer is pretty good as you´ve got a broader array of spells available than a Summoner would have, covering direct damage, battlefield control and summoning at the same time.

Keep in mind that Summon Good Monsters will greatly enhance your available summons and the DR stacks here. Extend Spell > Nameless One > Mask Focus works very well with a Visage of the Bound and will allow you to get more mileage out of summons.

[Secret Wizard]

I gotta have to disagree with the above poster.

Sorcerers aren't bad summoners at all. The fact that you take a full-round is well compensated by the fact that you have a ton of other options you can use if taking a full-round is not an option.

[Florian]

This simply comes down to efficient use of your economy of actions. Summoning itself is always a good thing, the question is how you can get more mileage out of it. The Reach Cleric build sets a high standard for what can be done in this regard and other class builds simply must be compared to that.

[Kurald Galain]

Having played many save or die casters over the years I have lost count of how many times I've ended encounters based on a 1-2 on a DC.
Well it's not hard to count, statistically that +1 on the DC makes a difference one time out of twenty. And no, that's completely not a big deal; the OP asked for a viable character, not a theoretically-optimized one.



Sorcerers aren't bad summoners at all. The fact that you take a full-round is well compensated by the fact that you have a ton of other options you can use if taking a full-round is not an option.
And as you say, sorcerers are viable summoners. Certainly not a foolish choice.

[Rhedyn]

I highly recommend a sorcerer with all the summoning spells and augment summoning.

Spont summoning means you are basically fine for combat and then can just build whatever after that.