We've been doing dragon bites wrong

[J-H]

Dragon bites are processed as a weapon attack like any other.

At church last night, there was a good picture of a lion with its mouth open, and I got a good look at the round, piercing fangs. That got me started thinking. Cats and dogs (large and small) kill smaller prey by picking it up, and shaking it back and forth violently so that its neck or spine snaps. The only other large land predator, the alligator/crocodile, clamps on and usually drags its prey into the water. Gators, at least, will grab on, go to the bottom, and do a 'death roll' where the prey gets disoriented and may not even know which way is up.

So why do dragons bite and then let go? Probably for rules simplicity, but this is an easy one to fix.

New dragon bite rules
1) Dragon makes an attack roll
1a) If the attack roll beats the defenders AC, the defender takes damage as normal;
2) If the defender is at least two size categories smaller than the attacker, proceed to step 3
3) If the attack roll beats touch AC (with or without fulfilling 1a), the dragon catches the target in its mouth. This provokes an AOO, but a successful AOO does not stop the dragon's bite unless it is a critical hit. The defender also makes an opposed grapple check; a successful check frees the defender.
4) The dragon shakes the target side to side violently several times, doing 2 points of damage per dragon HD, Fort save for half (CON-based DC).
6) The target is released, flying to somewhere in a cone shape to the left or right of the dragon; it flies 5' per size category of the dragon, and takes 1d6 fall damage per 10' of travel.

Is this more powerful? Yes. Does it make "Oh, I'll just tank the dragon" a lot less appealing? Oh yes.

[Zombimode]

So why do dragons bite and then let go?

Why are you focusing on dragons? This is true for all bite attacks.


Does it make "Oh, I'll just tank the dragon" a lot less appealing? Oh yes.

Have you looked at a dragons full attack? "just tanking the dragon" is a bad idea anyway.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Huge and larger dragons can take the Snatch feat to get (effectively) Improved Grab and Constrict. According to the Monster Manual, it is a favourite feat of dragons. If the dragon hits with a bite or claw attack, it can make a grapple check as a free action, and if it wins, it deals automatic bite/claw damage every turn, until the creature breaks free.

[Gnaeus]

So, what you mean to say is that you've been doing dragon bites wrong. I read the SRD that lists favored dragon feats. Among them is Snatch, which works like improved grab, but makes you fail saves against breath while you are in their mouth. So, I don't know where this bite and let go idea comes from.

[Kyberwulf]

You're doing HP wrong. When a Dragon bites you. It doesn't actually get a hold of you. What happens, as HP goes, is it narrowly misses you. You manage to dodge it, or it only gets a glancing scrape on you.

[Darth Ultron]

I'd point out that D&D, and most RPG, have a vague combat simulation at best. Player character races and classes get the most options, and everything else gets the ''attack until it has no hit points''.

Animals and monsters have a lot of different attacks, but the game tries to keep it simple.

I don't think dragons do the ''shake'' like cats and dogs do. Dragons have a long neck, you will note cats and dogs don't. A dragon bite is much more like a snake bite, a quick strike at the target.

And as said, a ''dragon bite'', like most attacks, is a ''quick nip'' more then it is a ''grappling pin down of massive force shacking and ripping apart a body''. You know, kinda like when a dog takes a snip at you.

Though worst of all, your mechanics slow down the game with a lot of rolls and checks, all for just a little damage. You could just increase the bite damage, and have the same effect....

[Jack_Simth]

Dragon bites are processed as a weapon attack like any other.

At church last night, there was a good picture of a lion with its mouth open, and I got a good look at the round, piercing fangs. That got me started thinking. Cats and dogs (large and small) kill smaller prey by picking it up, and shaking it back and forth violently so that its neck or spine snaps. The only other large land predator, the alligator/crocodile, clamps on and usually drags its prey into the water. Gators, at least, will grab on, go to the bottom, and do a 'death roll' where the prey gets disoriented and may not even know which way is up.

So why do dragons bite and then let go? Probably for rules simplicity, but this is an easy one to fix.Interestingly enough, a lot of attack dogs are specifically trained to bite and let go, depending on the exact purpose (as a counterexample, a police dog is likely to be intended to capture an opponent, in which case, it's bite and hold). Bite / Release / repeat is actually better for doing injury and killing... however, it allows the prey an opportunity to get away. Most predators are interested in food, and pick prey that won't fight back: as a result, they go for the hold. In the case of dogs/wolves/other pack-style hunters, one or two hold the prey while the others get in and rip at it until it is dead. In the case of lone predators, they tend to pick something that's not a threat and can't/won't fight back (which holding gives them an opportunity to do - if a dog's mouth is all used up holding a limb, it can't do much more to you when you start bashing it on the head with a club).

Dragons are intelligent, and can pick their tactics to suit their current prey. They're faster than most things, so the prey escaping isn't generally a problem that grappling will help solve. And, of course, Snatch is listed as one of their favourite feats....

[Honest Tiefling]

At church last night, there was a good picture of a lion with its mouth open, and I got a good look at the round, piercing fangs. That got me started thinking. Cats and dogs (large and small) kill smaller prey by picking it up, and shaking it back and forth violently so that its neck or spine snaps.

I'm pretty sure that larger cats don't shake as much as rely on strangulation or breaking the neck. Shaking is more of a canine thing.


The only other large land predator, the alligator/crocodile, clamps on and usually drags its prey into the water. Gators, at least, will grab on, go to the bottom, and do a 'death roll' where the prey gets disoriented and may not even know which way is up.

Hyenas, bears, pythons and other large snakes are also large predators. There are more examples depending on your definition of 'large'. Fantasty settings will also have large birds, dinosaurs and large vermin to worry about and model.

Also, a slightly problem is the teeth of a dragon. I don't know if they are mammalian or reptilian, but most reptiles don't have differentiated teeth which might be a problem for this model. Furthermore, dragon species should likely be different from one another, because they probably hunt different prey. The different colors have vastly different behaviors and environments, so while this might work for a dragon that happens to live near larger speices and chooses to eat meat, it makes little sense for one that eats fish.

And why would the dragon release their prey? Are they playing with it like a cat to tire it out? Because with most humanoids the releasing part would be pretty stupid and keeping a tight grip on it until death seems like a better plan.

[J-H]

Gators are also a grab and hold... pythons are completely different of course. Didn't think of bears and hyenas for some reason.

That's a good point - different dragons will have different types of teeth. Blues and other water-based may have a more shark-like mouth, for example. I wonder why there are no poison-bite dragons (or are there)?

[MesiDoomstalker]

I'm pretty sure that larger cats don't shake as much as rely on strangulation or breaking the neck. Shaking is more of a canine thing.



Hyenas, bears, pythons and other large snakes are also large predators. There are more examples depending on your definition of 'large'. Fantasty settings will also have large birds, dinosaurs and large vermin to worry about and model.

Also, a slightly problem is the teeth of a dragon. I don't know if they are mammalian or reptilian, but most reptiles don't have differentiated teeth which might be a problem for this model. Furthermore, dragon species should likely be different from one another, because they probably hunt different prey. The different colors have vastly different behaviors and environments, so while this might work for a dragon that happens to live near larger speices and chooses to eat meat, it makes little sense for one that eats fish.

And why would the dragon release their prey? Are they playing with it like a cat to tire it out? Because with most humanoids the releasing part would be pretty stupid and keeping a tight grip on it until death seems like a better plan.

Not to mention Dragons can survive on very little food/water and 'food' is a ridiculously broad category for dragons. They can eat rocks, gems and precious metals and be perfectly fine.

[Honest Tiefling]

Not to mention Dragons can survive on very little food/water and 'food' is a ridiculously broad category for dragons. They can eat rocks, gems and precious metals and be perfectly fine.

This quote has made me consider. Why would the dragons bite to begin with? Dosing one of your buddies up with dragon poison or icky stuff and tossing them in might be effective tactic against dragons who rely on biting. Would you want to put a suicidal monkey into YOUR mouth? You don't know where it's been!

[Draconium]

That's a good point - different dragons will have different types of teeth. Blues and other water-based...

Um... Blue Dragons are desert-dwelling [Earth] dragons. For Chromatics, Black Dragons are the water-based ones, and they aren't ocean-dwellers - they live in swamps. I could see them having a more gator-based mouth structure, though, and I could see them taking Snatch to drag a hapless adventurer into an underwater death roll.


I wonder why there are no poison-bite dragons (or are there)?

Fang Dragons are the closest I can think of off the top of my head, though it's a (Su) Con drain rather than a poison.

[Khedrac]

I wonder why there are no poison-bite dragons (or are there)?
Prior to 3.0 Green Dragons were a poison gas breath weapon (and so were some of the metallics with things like sleep gas), but originally no dragons had poison bites.
(Incidentally, quite a few early egends of dragons have poison breath, usually with posion bites I think, and no fire.)

In 3.5 Xorvintal dragons (MM5 - dragons that give up spellcasting for other abilities to play a game) can gain a poisonous bite, though it does not work like conventional poisons.

[MesiDoomstalker]

The other reason that no Dragon's get a poisonous bite is that poison is used by things that cannot, physically, subdue its prey. Poison makes up for lack of size or strength. Dragon's have size and strength in spades.

[Jack_Simth]

The other reason that no Dragon's get a poisonous bite is that poison is used by things that cannot, physically, subdue its prey. Poison makes up for lack of size or strength.Ok, I have to ask:
What's the target prey for a Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), then, that it actually needs that poison?

[Blackhawk748]

Ok, I have to ask:
What's the target prey for a Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), then, that it actually needs that poison?

I've always figured that those things dont occur in nature and they only come about when a Wizard gets really drunk. SO they have their poison simply because they are a super sized regular scorpion.

[Knaight]

Ok, I have to ask:
What's the target prey for a Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), then, that it actually needs that poison?

Anything likely to be able to outrun it, probably. It's not the fastest of monsters, and if you look at it with a setting first perspective instead of a system first perspective it should be much easier to keep out of getting grabbed by the claws (which have a very limited reach and only so much speed) than stung with the tail. Beyond that, while the claws are great for grabbing it also leaves the prey right up next to the scorpion's face, so taking them the rest of the way out quickly is a high priority. Add in how real scorpions frequently hunt prey pretty close to their own size and the plethora of things big enough for the colossal scorpion to still do the same, and it makes a lot of sense.

[Jack_Simth]

Anything likely to be able to outrun it, probably. It's not the fastest of monsters, and if you look at it with a setting first perspective instead of a system first perspective it should be much easier to keep out of getting grabbed by the claws (which have a very limited reach and only so much speed) than stung with the tail. Beyond that, while the claws are great for grabbing it also leaves the prey right up next to the scorpion's face, so taking them the rest of the way out quickly is a high priority. Add in how real scorpions frequently hunt prey pretty close to their own size and the plethora of things big enough for the colossal scorpion to still do the same, and it makes a lot of sense.
Follow up question: How does this not apply reasonably equally to dragons?

[LTwerewolf]

Follow up question: How does this not apply reasonably equally to dragons?

Not many things can outrun a dragon's flight, spells, raw damage potential, grappling, etc.

[eggynack]

You're doing HP wrong. When a Dragon bites you. It doesn't actually get a hold of you. What happens, as HP goes, is it narrowly misses you. You manage to dodge it, or it only gets a glancing scrape on you.
That can be the outcome. It doesn't have to be the outcome though. Sometimes you get scraped, or sometimes you get a big bite in the leg. Depends on how much damage you take, and also just how you want to flavor a particular interaction. Melee fellows are really tough, so they can plausibly take a direct bite without being taken fully out of commission.

[Knaight]

Follow up question: How does this not apply reasonably equally to dragons?

The outrunning part doesn't, and to some extent breath weapons fulfill the same role. Still, we've got a situation where they attack by biting and have a long, comparatively thin neck. Against anything near their size, a poisonous bite would be extremely useful. They are in a much better position to hunt things much smaller than them (particularly given flight), but there's no particular reason they shouldn't have poison, it could easily go either way.

[LTwerewolf]

Very few apex predators are venomous or poisonous (0 are coming to mind, but I haven't done the footwork here so I don't want to make a generalization). Dragons are definitely an apex predator.

[Jack_Simth]

The outrunning part doesn't, and to some extent breath weapons fulfill the same role. Still, we've got a situation where they attack by biting and have a long, comparatively thin neck. Against anything near their size, a poisonous bite would be extremely useful. They are in a much better position to hunt things much smaller than them (particularly given flight), but there's no particular reason they shouldn't have poison, it could easily go either way.

Which then comes back to why I was asking MesiDoomstalker the original question in the first place...

[LTwerewolf]

The question shouldn't be "why shouldn't they have it?" You can ask that question about nearly anything and come up with "I guess it would help and I can't think of why this thing couldn't have it." Even with herbivores, poison would help against predators.

The question is "why should they have it?" They don't need to develop poison because it's just blatantly unnecessary. They're apex predators without it.

[Knaight]

Very few apex predators are venomous or poisonous (0 are coming to mind, but I haven't done the footwork here so I don't want to make a generalization). Dragons are definitely an apex predator.

Komodo dragons come pretty close, as just one example. As for dragons being apex predators, until they reach a very old age there are still things that can eat them. Whether they do is another matter.

[Blackhawk748]

Komodo dragons come pretty close, as just one example. As for dragons being apex predators, until they reach a very old age there are still things that can eat them. Whether they do is another matter.

Eh, id say most dragons are near the top of the food chain in their particular area once they hit Large, its really only White dragons that need to hit Huge+ before they can compete for that title, and thats mostly because the frozen North is frelling dangerous in DnD.

[Draconium]

Eh, id say most dragons are near the top of the food chain in their particular area once they hit Large, its really only White dragons that need to hit Huge+ before they can compete for that title, and thats mostly because the frozen North is frelling dangerous in DnD.

You do know Red and Gold Dragons both hit Large size at Very Young? That's pretty young to be at the top of the local food chain, and they aren't that strong yet either. I'd at least give them another age category (which gives them spellcasting) before starting to consider it.

[LTwerewolf]

Things aren't considered at their youngest ages. They're considered once they're matured. I'd argue every mature dragon is an apex predator. We're not arguing that komodo dragons aren't apex predators because their babies can be eaten by things.

[Blackhawk748]

You do know Red and Gold Dragons both hit Large size at Very Young? That's pretty young to be at the top of the local food chain, and they aren't that strong yet either. I'd at least give them another age category (which gives them spellcasting) before starting to consider it.

Thus why i said most. It works fine for the rest of the Dragons, those two are just so freaking big from the get go.

[KillianHawkeye]

As for dragons being apex predators, until they reach a very old age there are still things that can eat them. Whether they do is another matter.

And what is your point exactly? Humans are apex predators as well (at least in the real world), but that doesn't stop the occasional young or foolish human from getting eaten by another animal.


Anyway, if anyone wants dragons to be poisonous in their game, giving it to them is easy and wouldn't even increase their CR much. My issue with poison is that the way 3.5 does it isn't very realistic.

[Bavarian itP]

Dosing one of your buddies up with dragon poison or icky stuff and tossing them in might be effective tactic against dragons who rely on biting.

Red Mage? Is that you (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2002/07/13/episode-172-the-inhabitant-of-the-cave/)?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Ok, I have to ask:
What's the target prey for a Monstrous Scorpion, Colossal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm), then, that it actually needs that poison?

Besides the point that no D&D critter works on an ecological/biosphere level, if you look at that stat block you see a Tiny Scorpion which is a pretty close approximation of most real-world scorpions. Every other scorpion is the exact same, with bigger numbers. Because, unlike Dragons which need some thought to determine what they can and cannot do, what they like to eat, how they hunt, etc etc, the Scorpion was given stuff its real world counterparts can do, then scaled up to give people something to actually fight. In other words, not all monsters were designed with equal measure of thought and design time.

Or it be overkill, since Dragon's get huge flight speeds, size, spellcasting, breath weapons, tons of natural attacks and beefy stats (except Dex).

[Ramza00]

In 3.5

If you wanted to simulate the dragon biting, spinning his neck around to snap the pray and then let ago use the Knockback feat from Races of Stone. It requires large size, power attack, and improved bull rush but it makes every attack of yours a free bullrush in addition to the damage.

It also simulates very well the dragon using his tail to knock everyone away, winding them and doing damage.







In Pathfinder

The dazing assault feat is amazing for a dragon. Requires Str 13, Power Attack, and a BAB of 11.

A CR 11 Young Red Dragon has 13 HD and Large size.

He has a DC 18 Frightful Presence that activates when you are within a 120 feet of him and your HD is 12 or less, causing the shaken condition for HD 5 to 12, and the frightened condition for HD 1 to 4.

He has Smoke Sight which means he can see through smoke, at no penalty

It has an at will pyrotechnics which can create a smoke / fog cloud. Not even true seeing bypasses the effective blindness this cloud possess, you have to leave the cloud area or disperse the cloud. A dragon can create a 40ft cone of fire, and the pyrotechnics spreads the cloud 20 feet in all directions bigger than the fire, and the fire does not disperse. Even if you disperse the cloud the Red Dragon can just recast pyrotechnics for a fire that is greater than a 20ft area, so in effect he can trade a standard action to recast his at will spell like ability. He cast that spell like ability at caster level 13.

If you swap out a feat, for quicken spell like ability, than the red dragon can use his pyrotechnics 3 times a day as a swift action.

Swap out one of his feats for Dazing Assault and how he can force 6 attacks which now have a chance for Daze

Swapping out one of his feats for flyby attack makes sense.

If you allow 3.5 books, entangling exhaustion from Races of the Dragon can make you reduce the damage of your breath weapon from 8d10 to 4d10+1d6. But now the enemy is entangled and thus moves at half speed and can not charge. Combine with a 40ft cone breath weapon, which is made a 60 foot cone via Entangling Exhaustion, This in turn force the player to use a double move in a random direction if they can' do any forms of attack without seeing the opponent.

So just fly at night, at 200ft above the ground for your 16ft long dragon, once he locates the party camping at night. He then circles back and starts the combat with his breath weapon (using flyby attack so you can attack, but then move out of range if you want to), and his pyrotechnics after he finished his move as a swift action (quicken spell like ability). If you made the breath weapon an entangling exhaustion than they are entangled and can only do half movement per move action. Then on the next round while the players try to figure out what the hell they should do for they are covered with a 60ft cone of non seeing, and must waste their time to try to locate you or move out the cloud (will probably take all of their movement), which then you can pick out and attack individual character at your leisure, or you can rinse or repeat, or you can purposefully land and then daze them and bull rush them back into the smoke cloud.

Oh and if the players killed you, make him a ghostly dragon from the Draconomicon from D&D 3.5 (the CE dragon wants vengeance and wants his stuff back) or the more powerful Dread Ghost template from pathfinder (400ft flight perfect as a move action, yes please.)

[Fitz10019]

Dragon bites are processed as a weapon attack like any other.
...
New dragon bite rules
1) Dragon makes an attack roll
1a) If the attack roll beats the defenders AC, the defender takes damage as normal;
2) If the defender is at least two size categories smaller than the attacker, proceed to step 3
3) If the attack roll beats touch AC (with or without fulfilling 1a), the dragon catches the target in its mouth. This provokes an AOO, but a successful AOO does not stop the dragon's bite unless it is a critical hit. The defender also makes an opposed grapple check; a successful check frees the defender.
4) The dragon shakes the target side to side violently several times, doing 2 points of damage per dragon HD, Fort save for half (CON-based DC).
6) The target is released, flying to somewhere in a cone shape to the left or right of the dragon; it flies 5' per size category of the dragon, and takes 1d6 fall damage per 10' of travel.

Is this more powerful? Yes. Does it make "Oh, I'll just tank the dragon" a lot less appealing? Oh yes.

Overall, I like your idea. I remember a dragon in the old Baldur's Gate game that had a wind effect with it's wing attacks, and that would send the party sliding across the floor to the edge of the room.

Your step 2) AC requirement seems redundant with step 1a's. It's unusual/impossible to succeed against normal AC but fail against touch AC. Did you intend an additional d20 roll? Hopefully not.

While your steps are interesting, I like Ramzaa's use of the Knockback feat approach. You could simply say the bite attack also has knockback effect plus the damage of your "flies 5' per size category of the dragon, and takes 1d6 fall damage per 10' of travel." This way, your buying the ability with the feat (and its requirements) instead of simply tacking on.

[Jack Mann]

Also, a slightly problem is the teeth of a dragon. I don't know if they are mammalian or reptilian, but most reptiles don't have differentiated teeth which might be a problem for this model.
Crocodiles are heterodonts. Of course, they're much more closely related to birds than to other reptiles, so that might not apply if you think of dragons as being more closely related to lizards.

[Knaight]

And what is your point exactly? Humans are apex predators as well (at least in the real world), but that doesn't stop the occasional young or foolish human from getting eaten by another animal.
Humans also stick with their young, and most species that don't do that have ridiculous numbers of young, of which only a few need to survive to adulthood. Dragons meanwhile are often depicted as doing neither of these things, while taking ridiculously long to reach maturity. There's a lot more pressure towards developing a poison there than is typical of apex predators. Beyond that, there's also plenty of mythological precedent for dragons being venomous.


Anyway, if anyone wants dragons to be poisonous in their game, giving it to them is easy and wouldn't even increase their CR much. My issue with poison is that the way 3.5 does it isn't very realistic.
No argument there.