Swashbuckler + Beguiler

[Talya]

I've got a player designing a Gish build, Swashbuckler/Beguiler. (While it's not optimal, I think he plans to get into Assassin as well.) Looking at these two classes, they seem relatively synergistic for Gish builds, don't you think? Especially as it's for a high-seas, swashbuckling campaign...

[Jannex]

Doesn't sound like a half-bad plan to me. Jack his Int to the ceiling, take Improved Feint, and go to town. I like it.

[SadisticFishing]

What's a gish? (before I say anything)

[Damionte]

A gish is someone who can fight and cast.

[Leon]

Sounds like a fun PC

Dex, Int, Cha are going to be good stats for him, when mere words fail he can back them up with magic ones and still fight his way out if need be

[Omnipotent_One]

The main problem i'm seeing with this is that most gish prestige classes don't have many skill points and don't have very good class skills, though a high int and the able learner feat should be able to fix both these problems.

Why not try out a build like........

Beguiler4/Swashbuckler3/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8

+18 BAB (very respectable)
16 CL (not so good here, but decent)

[ClericofPhwarrr]

16 CL (not so good here, but decent)

That's where the practiced spellcaster feat comes in. CL 20, ta-da!

[Talya]

Why take assassin? Like I said, it's not optimal, there are PrCs that would continue the beguiler casting instead that would do much better. The main reason?

Fluff. He wants to be able to charm his way (without magic) past people, charm his way (with magic) past people, have you smile and lift your chin up happily for him while he slits your throat. He's a brutal assassin that rarely has anyone put up a struggle, they're caught completely unaware.

[Draz74]

These two classes are a good combo in Gestalt. Especially when you can PrC out of Swashbuckler as soon as possible.

Non-gestalt, though, just seems like it wouldn't be all that great at fighting, for a gish. Maybe if you use something like the Abjurant Champion suggestion -- yeah, very good idea. Put a broken PrC like A.C. onto a sub-optimal but fun base, and voila! you've got a fun and reasonably-powered concept!

[Tor the Fallen]

What book is abjurant champion in?

[Omnipotent_One]

Abjurant Champion isn't broken, it just makes a fine compliment to a gish build.

It's in complete mage btw.

[DSCrankshaw]

Abjurant Champion isn't broken, it just makes a fine compliment to a gish build.

It's in complete mage btw.
I dunno. It's the only PrC I know of that gives full BAB and full caster progression, not to mention a d10 hit die and easy pre-reqs. You don't even need the nice special abilities to think it may be just a wee bit overpowered.

The best you can say for it is that it only has five levels.

[Lemur]

Swashbuckler and Beguiler seem like a nice enough pair. I have no complaints with the Assassin prestige class in itself, either.

However, I do have something to say about combining the two. Even if we ignore optimization, it's not really appropriate to call someone aiming for the Assassin class as a "Gish". A Swashbuckler/Beguiler/Assassin is a rogue type of build, not a gish one. A gish build would be something like straight Swashbuckler/Beguiler, or Swashbuckler/Beguiler/Gish Prestige Class (like Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger).

Also, based on his desired flavor, it doesn't sound like he wants to be a Gish anyway. A gish being a spell-slinging warrior. It sounds like he wants to be an Assassin, just an assassin who does the job in a certain way. I won't object to getting into Assassin through a combination of Swashbuckler and Beguiler, but taking levels of Assassin means the character is going to play like a rogue instead of a gish.

All of this may sound like nitpicking, but I really do think that calling this guy a gish as he's planning to be will cause some confusion. I don't want to say that there's anything inherently wrong with the build the player has in mind, just that calling it a gish isn't really using the term correctly.

[Bosh]

Swash/beguiler is fine but swash/beguiler/assassin is very very weak. It isn't much fun to be the most powerful person in a group, but it really sucks to be the least powerful. If you want a roguey type with a smattering of magic take spell thief or something. If you want a character who can charm with magic and words and do a bit of fighting you want bard...

[Miles Invictus]

Assassins get all of the primary social skills...like a Bard. They also get a Moderate attack bonus...like a Bard. Oh, and they get spellcasting...like a Bard. They can sneak attack, apply poison without risk of failure, and force save-or-dies with a few rounds of study. And since their casting stat is Intelligence, they don't suffer from MAD, either.

Really, unless you plan on singing at enemies a lot, you're better off PrCing into Assassin.

[Bauglir]

I don't see much of a problem. Feinting as a swift action if you've got enough Beguiler levels is not bad with 5d6 sneak attack. Swashbuckler Int to damage gives you decent damage for your non-sneak attacks and gets your BAB high enough to get 4 attacks (though you need 6 levels of Swash for that, so it's probably not the best choice, since you probably want feinting more and that also takes 6 levels of Beguiler). And since Assassin gives you death attack, which you'll be able to apply in the first round of most combats with sentient beings (who often have a nice pre-battle banter or something, or at least you can stall for 18 seconds). That lets you drop a foe almost immediately, which is good. Like somebody said before, jack Int into ridiculousness and he'll be set. If he can play something with an Int bonus, that's good. Gray Elf is nice if he can stand Elves and the Con penalty.

[Talya]

I don't see much of a problem. Feinting as a swift action if you've got enough Beguiler levels is not bad with 5d6 sneak attack. Swashbuckler Int to damage gives you decent damage for your non-sneak attacks and gets your BAB high enough to get 4 attacks (though you need 6 levels of Swash for that, so it's probably not the best choice, since you probably want feinting more and that also takes 6 levels of Beguiler). And since Assassin gives you death attack, which you'll be able to apply in the first round of most combats with sentient beings (who often have a nice pre-battle banter or something, or at least you can stall for 18 seconds). That lets you drop a foe almost immediately, which is good. Like somebody said before, jack Int into ridiculousness and he'll be set. If he can play something with an Int bonus, that's good. Gray Elf is nice if he can stand Elves and the Con penalty.

Death attack makes that high int from swashbuckler and beguiler even more appealling...his sneak attacks will usually kill outright from fortitude save failures.

[Bosh]

Assassins get all of the primary social skills...like a Bard. They also get a Moderate attack bonus...like a Bard. Oh, and they get spellcasting...like a Bard. They can sneak attack, apply poison without risk of failure, and force save-or-dies with a few rounds of study. And since their casting stat is Intelligence, they don't suffer from MAD, either.

Really, unless you plan on singing at enemies a lot, you're better off PrCing into Assassin.
Nothing wrong with the Assassin PrC but taking a few levels of a primary casting class and then taking Assassin levels is just pointless since you'll have two different casting progressions and your beguiler spells will end up being basically useless at higher levels. Now if your DM allows Assassin levels to increase Beguiler casting that's another story...

[Flawless]

Assassin isn't that bad for a swahbuckler. With 3 levels of assassin you get 2d6 sneak attack and thus qualify for the daring outlaw feat, which gives you another 2d6 sneak attack (assuming 3 levels swashbuckler).

Assassin spells are pretty good as well (wraith strike, improved invisibility, etc.) and pearls of power for lower spell levels are cheap. So no holding back using those spells every encounter.

[brian c]

I dunno. It's the only PrC I know of that gives full BAB and full caster progression, not to mention a d10 hit die and easy pre-reqs. You don't even need the nice special abilities to think it may be just a wee bit overpowered.

The best you can say for it is that it only has five levels.

I direct you to the Eldritch Knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm), which has 9/10 caster levels and full BAB, plus a bonus feat. Only prereqs are 3rd level arcane spells and proficiency with all martial weapons, which takes 1 level in a melee class (or being an outsider, or other somewhat cheesy methods). AbjCh is better because it gets other abilities, but Eldritch Knight is a solid class for any gish build, and since it's in the DMG it's very unlikely to be prohibited.

[Draz74]

Pearls of Power don't work for Assassin spellcasting (spontaneous). A Ring of Wizardry would, but it's expensive.

Even with Intelligence being your most-buffed-up stat, Death Attack has a pretty mediocre Save DC. Don't count on it being your main strategy.

I echo what others have said about Swashbuckler/Beguiler/Assassin being pretty gimpy, unless you can get a house rule passed that replaces Assassin spellcasting with "+1 Beguiler casting." I'd say 7/10 spellcasting progression would be pretty balanced for the assassin.

Otherwise, either stick with Swashbuckler/Beguiler or Swashbuckler/Rogue/Assassin. Or, someone else's great suggestion, Swashbuckler/Beguiler/Bladesinger. THAT'S what I call Int synergy. Rogue 2 / Swashbuckler 3 / Assassin 5 / Bladesinger 10 is good too.

[bigbaddragon]

What about making beguiler one side of the gestalt and duskblade the other. I think duskblade would be far more efficient than swash, especially after reaching level 13. Also beguiler and duskblade would come along pretty good for overcoming spell resistance and they both use int for spellcasting.

The bad side would be reflex saves but personally I consider them the most unimportant of all saves because far worse things happen when you fail fortitude or will save.

One question though: would arcane channeling (full attack) work with two weapon fighting?

[SadisticFishing]

Heh, my build is Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 1/Barbarian 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10.

The barbarian can be almost anything, I find the extra strength really good because of Elusive Target.

Abjurant Champion gives you a caster level of your BAB, doesn't it? Giving you a CL and BAB of 19. Intellect gives you so much it's crazy, initiative, casting, damage...

[Omnipotent_One]

Heh, my build is Swashbuckler 3/Wizard 1/Barbarian 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 10.

The barbarian can be almost anything, I find the extra strength really good because of Elusive Target.

Abjurant Champion gives you a caster level of your BAB, doesn't it? Giving you a CL and BAB of 19. Intellect gives you so much it's crazy, initiative, casting, damage...


Your build doesn't qualify for Abjurant Champion. AC requires 5 BAB to enter, your build only grants 4.

[SadisticFishing]

Damn you're right. Hrm, I remember thinking that but I don't remember what I did about it - Another level in wizard, one less in Swiftblade?

[Flawless]

Pearls of Power don't work for Assassin spellcasting (spontaneous).

Hmmm, that's too bad :(

That screws the assassin's casting ability too much to make it worthwile...

Maybe arcane trickster would work. The poor BAB doesn't hurt very much if you can get wraith strike as one of your beguiler spells (extra spell isn't specific about whether the new spell has to be on your spell list or not). Persisting (?) it would help, too.

[Mike_G]

I think this would be a really fun character. Most of the class features synergize well, and feat selection isn't too bad, since most feats that will work for one will mesh well with the others. I don't think this will be a weak charcter by any means.

It won't be a Duskblade/Wizard/EK power attacking with a greatsword between casting earthrending spells, but we don't always need a cannon to kill a mosquito.

This charcter will be awesoem against living creature, particulary humanoids, adn will be a huge powerhouse in an urban adventure. The oinly real weakness wil be aginst constructs, undead, etc, the bane of all precision damage types PCs.