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El'the Ellie
2016-06-12, 02:37 PM
Hi fellow DM's! I frequently run into a pitfall that I'd like some help with. Namely, when the PC's are charged with saving the world, how would I stop NPC allies from giving anything and everything the PC's ask for?

When PC's need help and have proven to be capable of dealing with a very real threat, I often find myself having to come up with excuses not to have NPC allies give them wildly outleveled aid. Why shouldn't the local church teleport the PC's right to their destination (assuming they have capable casters)? Why shouldn't the king donate his best weapons and magic items to the PCs as they go to fight the demon on his doorstep? Why don't the shopkeepers give unbelievable discounts when it's that or let the world end?
I know some people are greedy or selfish to the extreme, but it feels cheap to have everyone of power be that way. And the 'I don't believe you' story feels so forced after a time, especially if the PC's have pretty solid proof they need to save the world.

Have any other DM's encountered this problem? And if so, how have you handled it? Thanks!

Honest Tiefling
2016-06-12, 02:46 PM
Hi fellow DM's! I frequently run into a pitfall that I'd like some help with. Namely, when the PC's are charged with saving the world, how would I stop NPC allies from giving anything and everything the PC's ask for?

Don't. Just make it a proper challenge. The PCs know they're saving the world, but the NPCs don't know that. Have them convince and prove themselves worthy. Especially if you have characters invested in diplomacy! Reward them for it with plot hooks.


When PC's need help and have proven to be capable of dealing with a very real threat, I often find myself having to come up with excuses not to have NPC allies give them wildly outleveled aid.

Why do these NPCs have the aid, and aren't using it? Perhaps they need it elsewhere, like for that giant fire. Maybe they have vast amounts of magic, but there are a lots of restrictions (rituals, alignment restrictions, location restrictions, race or bloodline restrictions) that make it impractical to hand it out.

Also, if they have this stuff, why do the PCs matter? Reconsider your world building if the NPCs have the means to help themselves, but aren't using them. There are plenty of reasons they might not be able to, but we'd need more information to help with this particular snarl.


Why shouldn't the local church teleport the PC's right to their destination (assuming they have capable casters)?

Do they have sufficient recon to ensure they aren't going to get dropped into the middle of an army? No? Then teleport them, but not too close so they still have some travelling but not as much. This is great for high level play to distinguish it from low level play, and to reward the players for buttering up the casters. Also helps if you don't have any events for their journey planned...


Why shouldn't the king donate his best weapons and magic items to the PCs as they go to fight the demon on his doorstep?

If the demon is THAT close, then the king isn't in a position to stop the PCs from taking what they want to begin with. It could be that said artifacts are cursed and might cause more issues using them. And again, what is the king doing with those items?

Personally, I try to make very strong limits for crazy magic NPCs have. For instance, most teleportation in my opinion, for most settings is best handed by portals. You can't build them in a jiffy and you got a limited number of destinations. Weapons and magic items are probably already in use, so by the time the poop has hit the fan they're no longer in the picture.

As for shopkeepers, maybe a few have decided to switch sides or refuse to part with anything that might protect their family. Or they've bailed and are running away from the issues and aren't even in their shop. This would likely result in mass looting, so finding anything of value or importance is impeded by chaos and a large mob trying to steal everything including that which is nailed down.

I hope this has given you a few ideas.

Darth Ultron
2016-06-12, 03:59 PM
Have any other DM's encountered this problem? And if so, how have you handled it? Thanks!

Sure, it's not much of a problem....

The classic is They Have No Help to Give. Often this is done by making ''them'' weak. The tiny kingdom of Puddledorf only has 1,000 gold in the treasury, for example.

The Bad Guys got There First. The high clerics are already dead...in a mysterious fire. The high knights all left to fight a troll horde that...um...suddenly came out of the Far Forest. Wingledum the wizard is locked in his tower making a new spell and ranger Roz is missing. All part of the bad guys plot....

Make the help matter less. Much like when doing a plot for a high level game, make the power not matter. Lord Doom has the princess, but not at his castle...so you could teleport there, but you won't find anything.

Your average folk, like a shopkeeper, might not believe ''the world is ending'', so why give a discount?

Why would the king give the Sword of Omens to a ''rag tag bunch of adventures''? He will need it to defend the kingdom if it comes down to that. Same with most items.

HidesHisEyes
2016-06-12, 04:04 PM
It may depend on the system you're using, but if it's D&D 5E at any rate, remember that it's really designed for low magic settings. I think the assumption is that if the party are higher than about level 6 then they're probably the best resources available. The King isn't supposed to have an armoury full of magic weapons. Those weapons are lying around in dungeons and ruins that are too dangerous for anyone but level 6+ adventurers. So have the King open his armoury of at best finely crafted normal weapons to the party but that's about it. Similarly with mages and clerics: by the time the party is saving the world as opposed to the town, the party's mages and clerics are the ones with the most powerful magic, for teleporting or otherwise. Just aim to have a setting that doesn't provide a support network of power and resources for the PCs. They're pretty much the only ones powerful enough to take on the forces they are facing by that point. They're on their own.

El'the Ellie
2016-06-12, 04:18 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

SirBellias
2016-06-12, 04:42 PM
Yeah, 3.5 has some issues in that regard without an established chain of authority for what happens when adventurers get involved in crimes.

I make it so that the PCs are the ones most available to help, as others with power are limited by location (watchmens authority only goes so far, highpriests only working miracles from inside the temples) or by being highly specific (only really useful thing they can do is with a ritual involving x, y, and z costs, in a certain place, at a certain time, otherwise useless). Magic items aren't available, due to being lost through the ages, stolen, or never actually existing in the first place (myths and legends aren't all they've cracked up to be).

HidesHisEyes
2016-06-12, 05:17 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

Yeah. I make sure the players understand right from the start that they're supposed to be the good guys. I know some people think the players shouldn't be "supposed" to be or do anything, but those people play a very different form of D&D to what I like to play (or run).

Thrudd
2016-06-12, 05:22 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

A. If the PC's are saving the world then either they must be the ones the world is going to, because nobody else is powerful enough to do it, or they are the only ones who know the world is in danger and don't have the time or ability to get anyone else to help. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense that the most powerful heroes in the world wouldn't assemble to save everything. If there are high-powered resources, armies, magic artifacts, those things would all be brought to bear to save the world, assuming everyone wants to save the world.

B. Don't use the "save the world plot" at all. Think of other things to do.

C. Once characters become high level, yes, they are not kept in check by normal laws. They can become rulers in their own right, conquer or found cities and kingdoms, and make up their own laws. Or become villains of the highest order and loot and pillage everything. However, when they are that high in level, the things that are easy for them to take from others should not be things that are very exciting or powerful. So they take over a town, and force the blacksmith to make them mundane armor and weapons and steal jewels and gold from the treasury: when they can do that, they each probably already have more magic items and treasure than any normal town. If they want more powerful items and spells, they still need to go hunting for them where they are hidden, in demon-infested abysses and ancient dragon hoards and mind-flayer hives, etc. People and things who have weapons and spells better than the ones the players already have will be powerful enough to be a challenge for them. If the players want to play "Highlander" (There can be only one), and spend the game hunting down all NPC's with magic items and spells and killing them and taking their stuff until they are the most powerful in the world...well, let them try, and don't make it easy.

D. PC's should have a ton of agency to come up with solutions to problems. The setting and the people in it should behave in a logical manner consistent with the reality they understand. Try to consider how the world and NPCs will react to the events that are happening were the players not there, and what the important people in the world want and how they pursue their goals. That should help you decide how people will react to the players when they get involved. If the players come into town and tell everyone that a zombie hoard is heading their way and everyone should get ready to fight, what reaction makes sense for them? Whatever it is, do that. If the town is home to a church full of high level clerics, then you've chosen a poor way to threaten this town, because the clerics will provide a pretty effective defense unless there is a really gigantic number of zombies.
Populate your world however you want with whatever level NPC's you want, but consider the repercussions of having lots of high level characters and powerful magic everywhere and what that means for how the PCs fit in and what sorts of things are a threat and to whom.

PersonMan
2016-06-12, 05:24 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

There's a difference between "can stop world-ending threats or provide significant aid in doing so easily" and "can fight a PC".

If a big city has three to five champions who can be called on to defend it, they can give the level 2 guards the weight of a much higher level character's strength, but in a world-ending situation they're all going to be busy keeping the city running and ensuring that the coming events don't destroy it even if the world is saved.

Darth Ultron
2016-06-12, 05:58 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.


It's kind of a myth that ''the law'' is....or must be...super powerful. Plenty of ''law people'' live off the idea that ''everyone will just be good''.

But even if you have all super cops....well a cop is not the best one for an adventure. Cops don't slay dragons, they serve and protect people and up hold the law. A cop wizard would know sleep and hold person, but not fireball, for example.

But if you feel the need for super cops...you can add them. Say the city has seven iron golem ''robo''cops...but they can't leave the city limits.

ClintACK
2016-06-12, 06:12 PM
Depends a lot on the kind of story you're telling.

There's the Buffy the Vampire Slayer version where most of the world has no idea that she and her ragtag band of heroes need to know the plural of Apocalypse. And if they did know, they'd be trying to help in all the wrong ways. But that's not really D&D.

Also from BtVS, you could go the way of "The Zeppo" ... in which Xander saves the school from getting blown up by a group of zombie bullies while the rest of the cast is busy fighting a tentacled horror that's trying to force its way through the Hellmouth in the school library. The higher level party (Buffy and Faith and Giles) are busy with other things -- and never find out that Xander saved them all from a fiery death.

In other words, your 8th level heroes are dealing with a plot that could endanger their home city... while the local 17th level wizard who could probably deal with that problem in between breakfast and lunch is rather busy saving the world from a Great Old One that means to eat the sun.

It's the same reason the 8th level party isn't taking the afternoon to help little Jimmy find his dog that wandered away. Or help the innkeeper with the giant rats that have broken into his wine cellar. The trick is to phrase this so it doesn't trivialize the level-appropriate heroic deeds of the party.

If you want it to be an all-hands-on-deck world-threatening problem, then perhaps the high level NPCs are busy doing things like managing the evacuation and commanding the army (that is just barely holding off the enemy hordes, for now) or holding the hell-rift closed while the PCs hunt chase down the cultists who opened it and bring back the evil artifact so the rift can be permanently closed.PCs: "Can't you just teleport us to the cultist temple?"
Archmage: "This isn't as easy as it looks. If I stop concentrating, this cosmic rift will crack open again and more demons will come through."
PCs: "How about a location spell?"
Archmage: "Seriously, this is straining even me. Go and get the McGuffinator2k so we can close this thing before it eats the whole city."
PCs: "Uberknight, we could sure use your strong sword arm in the fight."
Uberknight: "Alas, someone has to stand guard against the demons sneaking through the rift, lest one of them distract Archmage long enough to destroy us all! Go, and return as swiftly as you may. You carry the hopes of us all. Now, go!"
etc.


Think about Lord of the Rings -- Elrond, Galadrial, Gandalf, and Aragorn would have made a kick-ass epic-level adventuring party. They probably could have fought their way through the Black Gates... until all the Nazgul showed up and the Great Eye turned on them. Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli did change the course of battles (at Helm's Deep and Minas Tirith) that could have seen whole nations slaughtered. But still Sam and Frodo carried the ring to Mordor -- and so, saved the world.

JNAProductions
2016-06-12, 06:42 PM
Hi fellow DM's! I frequently run into a pitfall that I'd like some help with. Namely, when the PC's are charged with saving the world, how would I stop NPC allies from giving anything and everything the PC's ask for?

When PC's need help and have proven to be capable of dealing with a very real threat, I often find myself having to come up with excuses not to have NPC allies give them wildly outleveled aid. Why shouldn't the local church teleport the PC's right to their destination (assuming they have capable casters)? Why shouldn't the king donate his best weapons and magic items to the PCs as they go to fight the demon on his doorstep? Why don't the shopkeepers give unbelievable discounts when it's that or let the world end?
I know some people are greedy or selfish to the extreme, but it feels cheap to have everyone of power be that way. And the 'I don't believe you' story feels so forced after a time, especially if the PC's have pretty solid proof they need to save the world.

Have any other DM's encountered this problem? And if so, how have you handled it? Thanks!

What system is this for? That'll affect my advice.

Honest Tiefling
2016-06-12, 06:46 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Consider adjusting the scope of the story if this bothers you. If the group of PCs are not heroes fighting for the whole of the universe, they need to be more powerful then anything else. If they are instead fighting an evil kingdom enslaving people, the kingdom is likely to have plenty of people on equal or better footing then them. Situations like this also give you more opportunities for NPCs to not simply aid the party, such as threats to their family.

And trust your players. No game will work without that. Presumably they are your friends and want you to have fun as well.

Knaight
2016-06-12, 06:52 PM
Consider adjusting the scope of the story if this bothers you. If the group of PCs are not heroes fighting for the whole of the universe, they need to be more powerful then anything else. If they are instead fighting an evil kingdom enslaving people, the kingdom is likely to have plenty of people on equal or better footing then them. Situations like this also give you more opportunities for NPCs to not simply aid the party, such as threats to their family.

The scale of the conflict in this regard is largely tangential. If the PCs are heroes fighting for the whole of the universe, and so are a bunch of other people, then them not getting all that exceptional aid makes sense. They aren't the only hope, aid granted is likely to be wasted from the perspective of the people granting it, there are other groups they might support, so on and so forth. If the PCs are the extent of the military resistance against an evil kingdom enslaving people, then everyone up against the kingdom has a pretty good motivation to provide exceptional aid to the PCs.

El'the Ellie
2016-06-12, 06:57 PM
And trust your players. No game will work without that. Presumably they are your friends and want you to have fun as well.

Actually therein lies the crux of the problem: I've DM'ed a lot of games IRL with friends and we have a gentlemen's/lady's agreement not to try the DM on things like this. I plan on running my first PBP game on the boards soon, and I know players may not have that level of courtesy. But you're right, I should start by giving the benefit of the doubt, right?

Tiktakkat
2016-06-13, 12:41 AM
As to how much assistance NPCs provide:

First is, as mentioned already, how much assistance can the NPCs actually give.
Just how high level are these NPCs to be able to dispense so much WBL-busting largesse in the first place?
More critically, if they are that high level, why aren't they dealing with such a critical issue themselves? Clearly it is "THAT" serious, so why rely on flunkies in the first place?

If you are still stuck after getting past those, then you should probably be re-examining both your game assumptions and your setting assumptions.
You may just have too much level inflation of NPCs going on, and possibly too much favor inflation as well.
And with those two in mind, you have to remember - the game is about the PCs completing the mission, not some NPCs sending hirelings out to resolve it "off-camera" with a "die roll".

Even with that, it is still possible to keep things under control by a simple shift in your adventure design:
No Loot, All Rewards
Just do away with gratuitous loot on dead bad guys and in locked chests, and have the majority of the WBL the PCs have come from rewards or donations or what not from their patrons, contacts, allies, and random helpful merchants.
It may not be as cool as battle loot, but you can have some of that and still have NPCs provide "reasonable" support without breaking WBL.

As for whether weaker NPCs will have trouble enforcing the law:
Then they have trouble.
The PCs can go anti-establishment and burn down the place they rest between adventures, eliminating all their patrons, contacts, allies, and random helpful merchants in the process; or,
The PCs can support the establishment, chasing and "dealing" with wandering monsters who might want to break the law for fun and random adventure hooks.
The key is to just have consequences when the PCs go all street thug. NPCs refusing basic help unless intimidated, then hiding critical information anyway if threatened, refusing to contribute for rewards, and similar fallout.
If the PCs insist on going the full evil, then make them all the way with suppressing any uprising. Make them have to protect their peasants from "marauding" heroes. Then when they realize how much trouble it involves to be in charge, indeed when they are the ones getting hit up for "help" in stopping the world-destroying evil, they will get back into acting just enough like heroes that the locals don't all plot to poison them in their sleep.

Slipperychicken
2016-06-13, 08:17 AM
People aren't as sensible or generous as we'd like them to be. We've got a few save-the-human-race plots going on now IRL, and the people working on those are often ignored and underfunded, much to their frustration.

GrayGriffin
2016-06-13, 08:59 AM
Well, NPCs still have to provide for themselves. And honestly, in a lot of my recent games, our GM has let us have NPC allies in battles, but the opposition also gets scaled up as a result. And on some occasions the NPCs help hold off just some of the enemies in the background.

HidesHisEyes
2016-06-13, 09:53 AM
Thinking about this more and reading others' posts, I think a good general rule of thumb might be that whatever level the PCs are, they should be the local NPCs' best hope of overcoming the threat.

Winter_Wolf
2016-06-13, 10:16 AM
No aid to give/spare is a real thing. To law enforcement, it's generally accepted that it's reactionary, bogged down by organization and bureaucratic red tape, and intended to defend rather than take the fight to the enemy. Proactively patrolling the streets is a deterrent for basically law abiding people to keep up good behavior, and the lawless just get more creative. Military can take the fight to the enemy, but then there's the risk of leaving the core weak and exposed to other threats.

The ruler probably is more powerful than the party, but it's like being filthy rich but all your money is tied up in investments so you don't actually have any cash to spare. I might have 100,000 dollars (ha, I wish) but I still can't afford to give or even "loan" someone 1000 because none of it is liquid assets. Literally everything except what I need to survive is tied up.

The holy avenger that you could use in your battle to save the world? One, it's not "mine" to give, it's the property of the line of kings protecting the kingdom from evil, and the peasants who toil here. You want it to save the world, you say? While you're out saving the world with it (if you live and we somehow can reasonably expect to get it back instead of losing it when you die horribly), our neighbors come and sack and pillage everything. No one in my realm will care about "the world" when their sons and daughters are feeding the ground with their blood. So no, there's nothing to spare; if you can't manage with what you've got, clearly your reputation isn't as accurate as We thought, and We had best look for heroes actually capable of this deed.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-13, 10:29 AM
It's an ongoing challenge in some sorts of games to make the PCs important -- vital, even -- to what's going on, while not forcing the rest of the world to hold the idiot ball. I've found that too often in fiction and in games, the importance of the PCs is based on the ineptitude and/or foolishness of everyone else, and I always try to avoid that (sometimes even overcompensating, I admit).

Thrudd
2016-06-13, 11:08 AM
People aren't as sensible or generous as we'd like them to be. We've got a few save-the-human-race plots going on now IRL, and the people working on those are often ignored and underfunded, much to their frustration.

Too true. In the RL examples it's a mix of people not believing the world is really at risk, people who might accept the human race is in danger but don't care because they think they will be dead already before things get bad, and people who don't care because they believe they personally possess the power to weather whatever happens and rebuild: holding on to their wealth and power is more important than anything or anyone else. And maybe a few nutters who are looking forward to the human race's demise and want to help it along.


This is what Game of Thrones is like: almost nobody believes the White Walkers and wights are real. Even though this is an existential threat to all human kind, only the wildlings and the Night's Watch and a few northerners have seen them first hand and nobody but maybe a couple maesters in the citadel would believe them if they talked about it. The people who recognize and could actually help deal with the threat are few and far between. It will take wights overrunning their towns and keeps to get anyone to believe it and start fighting the real enemy, and by then it might be too late.


In shared-universe comics like Marvel, you often have groups of B-list heroes saving the world without help, even though the world is absolutely packed with super heroes orders of magnitude more powerful than they are. The explanation is usually that the really powerful heroes were involved in their own world/universe-saving adventure and weren't available to help. This is a world where the world is constantly under attack from threats ranging from take-over-the-world tyrants to aliens-want to enslave and consume our flesh to cosmic godlike beings are overwriting time and space. There just conveniently isn't anyone stronger than the PC's around to deal with this problem. They're in space, or on another plane, or in the underdark, or whatever.

Flickerdart
2016-06-13, 01:37 PM
Hi fellow DM's! I frequently run into a pitfall that I'd like some help with. Namely, when the PC's are charged with saving the world, how would I stop NPC allies from giving anything and everything the PC's ask for?

When PC's need help and have proven to be capable of dealing with a very real threat, I often find myself having to come up with excuses not to have NPC allies give them wildly outleveled aid. Why shouldn't the local church teleport the PC's right to their destination (assuming they have capable casters)? Why shouldn't the king donate his best weapons and magic items to the PCs as they go to fight the demon on his doorstep? Why don't the shopkeepers give unbelievable discounts when it's that or let the world end?
I know some people are greedy or selfish to the extreme, but it feels cheap to have everyone of power be that way. And the 'I don't believe you' story feels so forced after a time, especially if the PC's have pretty solid proof they need to save the world.

Have any other DM's encountered this problem? And if so, how have you handled it? Thanks!

If the local church has better magic, and the local king has better items, the PCs should not be the ones fighting the demon.

Ninjattack
2016-06-14, 12:13 AM
In my campaign I've sort of circled around having the NPC's constantly offering the heros aid because the NPC's don't realize there is an actual threat to the entire world. My players like to refer to my campaign's final villains as being "the ultimate hyper threats", because they've actually seen what this world ending threat is like and what it's capable of.

The NPCs though, not so much. I've countered my world ending threat with a war going on in the background between this really big empire and a bunch of spirits. Not enough to threaten the world, but enough to distract the NPCs from the actual problem. I mean, a few people still can probably tell that something big and world endy is up, but not enough so that they actually care to try and help the PCs stop it.

CharonsHelper
2016-06-14, 12:49 AM
Too true. In the RL examples it's a mix of people not believing the world is really at risk, people who might accept the human race is in danger but don't care because they think they will be dead already before things get bad, and people who don't care because they believe they personally possess the power to weather whatever happens and rebuild: holding on to their wealth and power is more important than anything or anyone else. And maybe a few nutters who are looking forward to the human race's demise and want to help it along.

To be fair - for every IRL group who is saving the world from an actual threat, there are three dozen asking for funding for things which aren't a threat at all. (I'm not going to get into current examples as I don't want to debate which ones are real - but back in the 70's there were actually scientists who promoted the idea of covering the ice caps with coal dust in order to heat the planet and prevent the next ice age. Needless to say - that would have been a bad idea.)

So - to bring it back to gaming, the PCs and a few others KNOW that they're saving the world, but the rest of the world thinks that they're like the guys on the street corners with signs saying "The End is Near!".

Kami2awa
2016-06-14, 02:00 AM
One thing I'd say is that not every plot has to end with the PCs saving the entire world (for a start, what happens if they fail?) You can have much lower stakes than that and still create a great adventure story. Sometimes, saving one character is a triumph.

ILM
2016-06-14, 06:38 AM
Well, NPCs still have to provide for themselves.
Exactly. Even if the PCs have convinced everyone that the threat of the Demon King is real and that they're the only ones who can slay him, and that they need all the help they can get to assault his fortress, the good people of the world have their own problems. Like the Seven Sinful Generals rampaging across the world. Maybe Lord Mithdras wants to hang on to that legendary sword in his vault, considering its the only thing that might give him a chance to save his city...

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-14, 06:47 AM
To be fair - for every IRL group who is saving the world from an actual threat, there are three dozen asking for funding for things which aren't a threat at all. (I'm not going to get into current examples as I don't want to debate which ones are real - but back in the 70's there were actually scientists who promoted the idea of covering the ice caps with coal dust in order to heat the planet and prevent the next ice age. Needless to say - that would have been a bad idea.)

So - to bring it back to gaming, the PCs and a few others KNOW that they're saving the world, but the rest of the world thinks that they're like the guys on the street corners with signs saying "The End is Near!".

Hey, we can also use this as an example of how the popular understanding of history can be so wrong just 40 years later, even in our modern education-rich and communication-saturated society, and how in the sort of setting most fantasy games are set in, people could believe all sorts of crazy things to be true. (http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/06/that-70s-myth-did-climate-science-really-call-for-a-coming-ice-age/)

DigoDragon
2016-06-14, 07:09 AM
I have a campaign where the party beat up some members of a cult and found a book among them that gave clues on where the cult may strike next. A light-hearted comment was made that I'm a terrible DM for taking away PC agency by giving hints like that. XD



Actually therein lies the crux of the problem: I've DM'ed a lot of games IRL with friends and we have a gentlemen's/lady's agreement not to try the DM on things like this. I plan on running my first PBP game on the boards soon, and I know players may not have that level of courtesy. But you're right, I should start by giving the benefit of the doubt, right?

It's good to trust players, but make them aware of the kind of shenanigans that push your buttons too.

JeenLeen
2016-06-14, 08:16 AM
Something like this came up in a oWoD Mage game I was in. An archmage was messing with Pluto and do something close enough to ending existence (avoiding technicalities due to irrelevance.)

Some NPCs helped, some did not.
Those who helped went all-in as much as they could.

sworn enemies of the archmage fought him while we prepared, buying us time and weakening his forces before we arrived
NPC allies provided us with buffs, teleportation, and magic items


Many others did not help, for some of the following reasons (note that many of these are related to 'the world almost ends about once a month'):

they are busy saving the world from another threat
if they intervened, it would break old promises and let another threat be free to destroy the world, and this threat is worse than the archmage
they are creatures of balance, and although what the archmage was up to is bad, reality would probably work itself out on its own.
reality seems like to like mid-level dudes saving it. Heck, last week a group of vamps less than a 100 years old stops an Antedeluvian from sinking North America, so you guys will probably be okay.
politics. Yeah, it's stupid compared to this risk, but if you win and it turns out we helped you, we are in a worse position. Others will likely help you out enough.
hurt relationships. They hated us, didn't trust us, and/or weren't willing to help us.


Or they helped, but in a limited fashion due to mistrust that we'd abuse the resources if they went all-in, so sort of a mix of politics and somebody else will help.

Lastly, some enemies of us helped indirectly, but they weren't willing to offer aid directly (nor probably would we accept it) and they used it to attack us after we saved the world.

In a D&D game, I could see free access to mundane items and minor magic items (potions, minor items), but have some reason that the major stuff isn't available or isn't available for free.

Liquor Box
2016-06-15, 05:01 AM
I think Ellie's issue is a potential real plot hole. I also think that some people's suggested solutions sound artificial and may not work in the context of a real campaign.

If we take the OotS campaign as an example (which we all know). Why, when the Order flew into the Gnome town for repairs, did the gnomes repair the ship for free, allow the Order to take any magic items they wanted etc - after all the party was on a quest to save the world from an imminent threat.
- The answer that the gnomes were not able to help (had not good items or were otherwise employing them) doesn't run. The gnomes clearly had supplies available that could help the part (see Hayley, Elan and Belkar's trips to stores.
- The answer that the people don;t believe the heroes is unlikely to help much either - we have seen how persuasive Hayley is and most parties have someone with maxed out diplomacy. This isn't a broken use of diplomacy either because you are using it to make a perfectly reasnable argument (persuade them of a truth and persuade them to do something rational in response). I don;t think a high diplomacy score should enable the party to have their pick of the worlds magic items.
- We know there are more powerful characters around (for example Julio Scoundral).


I think it requires a degree of suspension of disbelief for the story to work.

The Fury
2016-06-15, 11:55 AM
Sure, it's not much of a problem....

The classic is They Have No Help to Give. Often this is done by making ''them'' weak. The tiny kingdom of Puddledorf only has 1,000 gold in the treasury, for example.

The Bad Guys got There First. The high clerics are already dead...in a mysterious fire. The high knights all left to fight a troll horde that...um...suddenly came out of the Far Forest. Wingledum the wizard is locked in his tower making a new spell and ranger Roz is missing. All part of the bad guys plot....

Make the help matter less. Much like when doing a plot for a high level game, make the power not matter. Lord Doom has the princess, but not at his castle...so you could teleport there, but you won't find anything.

Your average folk, like a shopkeeper, might not believe ''the world is ending'', so why give a discount?

Why would the king give the Sword of Omens to a ''rag tag bunch of adventures''? He will need it to defend the kingdom if it comes down to that. Same with most items.

As a player I've run across a variation on this general theme-- NPCs are just useless. Anyone you might potentially ask for help is either a complete dolt, won't see you, or has written you off as a joke if not completely crazy.

Naturally, in this case saving the day falls to the PCs because they're the only competent ones in the kingdom.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-15, 12:19 PM
As a player I've run across a variation on this general theme-- NPCs are just useless. Anyone you might potentially ask for help is either a complete dolt, won't see you, or has written you off as a joke if not completely crazy.

Naturally, in this case saving the day falls to the PCs because they're the only competent ones in the kingdom.


And I detest that pattern, both in fiction and in games.

Jay R
2016-06-15, 04:34 PM
Why shouldn't Kubota help Hinjo and the OotS defend Azure City against Xykon's goblins?

It's the same question, and has the same answer. Because they believe that an alternate ending will be better for them personally. A particularly useful tool is that the king, or the patriarch of the church, don't want all of the populace following the PCs. They may be waiting for the PCs to defeat many of the BBEG's minions and then die, leaving the BBEG more vulnerable.

One of the reasons I rarely use publicly-known "save the world" scenarios is that in that case, the entire civilized world should pull together, and the PCs would be a trivial piece of it.

PersonMan
2016-06-16, 03:06 AM
Another possibility: Disagreement on how to solve the issue.

The PCs want to go and use the ancient gem of sealing to close the Demonrift before it opens fully and spews out an infinite horde of bloodthirsty monsters? Well, in my holy text it says that the ancient gem of sealing is required to open the Demonrift, so if we keep it here then things will be fine - the kingdom over there can deal with the occasional demon rampage.

Cluedrew
2016-06-16, 08:22 AM
And I detest that pattern, both in fiction and in games.I just had some unpleasant flashbacks to a bunch of stories where all characters fell into three groups: the heroes, the villains and the incompetents. Related: the where did you get this? Seriously did no one in the world notice that some guy bought or constructed a large array of military hardware and hired a private army? There are some logistics behind that which would make every intelligence agency in the world start razing red flags.

Sorry I'm starting to go a little off topic.

Jay R
2016-06-16, 02:55 PM
If the ancient sacred gem of sealing is now one of the hereditary crown jewels, the king isn't going to give it to a bunch of commoners. And if the lyrical, spherical brass monkey of banana cake creation is an artifact of the faith, then possibly only patriarchs of that god can touch it.

wumpus
2016-06-16, 03:10 PM
And I detest that pattern, both in fiction and in games.

"With great power comes great responsibility".

But what if those who have great power can't lay down their responsibilities to save the world? The world goes on (until the world-eater eats it) and those responsible for it can't just leave on a lark. The party is gaining power, and *their* responsibility is saving the world (or however the campaign grows).

Also everybody sees their little crisis as the most important thing in the world. The PCs are likely equally deluded, and the world-eater probably isn't. Do you really think every NPC can hand over the store to a group just because they are adventuring party?

Tough call on how the rest of the world feels about the PCs. In the end, I'd like them to be revered as heroes. You might also have everybody else to expect the PCs to do it all on their own (its their job) and to endless Monday morning quarterbacking (you should have slain the dragon with an arrow, not a fireball) if you really want to drive it home.

Spore
2016-06-16, 03:53 PM
I will be blunt. The problem is the actual plot of "if we don't stop X, all life as we know it will be doomed forever and ever." This is lazy writing. A campaign threat should not end all life and destroy everything. It should remarkably change the world. Maybe not even make it worse for everyone. Maybe some people should like what the BBEG is proposing (and not just out of mustache twirling villainy but because of actual benefits).

Good ideas:
- Drown the island nation beneath the sea to increase the power and portfolio of a major evil sea deity; removing a rivaling nation from the map for other nations, increasing living quality for pirates and sea creatures, maybe even killing a few smaller evil cults because their base of operations simply drowns
- Awaken the ancient fire dragon to allow him to rule the divided country under his (tyrannous) rule. There will be bloodshed but also unity. The land will probably survive the upcoming ursurpation of smaller warlords.
- Letting the country slip partly into the Fey Wilds, removing the threat of smaller evil bandit gangs but forcing the travellers to deal with bored Fey (okay, this is remarkably more evil but only because I feel like Fey are the most evil bastards in D&D)

Bad ideas:
- Daemon invasion to end all life on the prime material: Of COURSE everyone involved will help you. But then again, you should be 15+ for that quest so the most NPCs can help you are 7-12 because all other major NPCs are busy denying some other doomsday
- A Meteorite summoned by a circle spell is going to destroy the world in 30 days. All important dudes already cast interplanetary teleport.

See what I mean. Even after a big catastrophe, live goes on. The world does not end because of your BBEG's threat, and it should not. Faerun had the spell plague and the time of sorrows. Both were catastrophic but life went on. The time of sorrows empowered small cults of deities. The spell plague empowered noncasters.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-16, 04:29 PM
As a player I've run across a variation on this general theme-- NPCs are just useless. Anyone you might potentially ask for help is either a complete dolt, won't see you, or has written you off as a joke if not completely crazy.

Naturally, in this case saving the day falls to the PCs because they're the only competent ones in the kingdom.

(Emphasis added in the above -- that context is critical to my reply.)


And I detest that pattern, both in fiction and in games.


"With great power comes great responsibility".

But what if those who have great power can't lay down their responsibilities to save the world? The world goes on (until the world-eater eats it) and those responsible for it can't just leave on a lark. The party is gaining power, and *their* responsibility is saving the world (or however the campaign grows).

Also everybody sees their little crisis as the most important thing in the world. The PCs are likely equally deluded, and the world-eater probably isn't. Do you really think every NPC can hand over the store to a group just because they are adventuring party?



Um... that's great, I guess.

Now how about the situation I was actually talking about? Context matters.


The actual thing I was talking about, that I'm sick of, is the way that anyone besides the heroes is some combination of useless, inept, willfully ignorant, painfully stupid, short-sightedly greedy, secretly in league with the villain, or something else that just oh so conveniently makes certain that they can't contribute anything at all to the victory over evil. Even hardened soldiers can't so much as manage to put up a fight. Etc. The best detective on the police force might make headway into the mysterious killer, but halfway through the movie he'll be killed off of show how dangerous the killer is -- sacrificed on the alter of narrative purpose and raising the stakes to 11. Etc.

ClintACK
2016-06-16, 04:30 PM
If we take the OotS campaign as an example (which we all know)...
- The answer that the people don;t believe the heroes is unlikely to help much either - we have seen how persuasive Hayley is and most parties have someone with maxed out diplomacy. This isn't a broken use of diplomacy either because you are using it to make a perfectly reasnable argument (persuade them of a truth and persuade them to do something rational in response). I don;t think a high diplomacy score should enable the party to have their pick of the worlds magic items.


Truth doesn't imply plausibility.

The horrible danger that the OotS is confronting is wildly implausible, even though it is real.

Putting it another way -- if it wasn't real, how would you expect the gnomes to react to Haley telling them the story? That's how they should react when she tells them the story.



Imagine you're an amateur astronomer in the U.S. and you've discovered a comet on a collision course with the Earth. So you drive to D.C., park illegally in front of the White House gate, and try to make a real-world-equivalent of a Persuasion/Diplomacy check to get the guards to let you in to warn the President.

The fact that it is *true* that a comet is on a collision course will not help you.

And if you know (and it's true) that the "comet" is a world-eating spawn of the Goat-with-a-Thousand-Young... good luck getting out of the mental hospital. Being right won't help.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-16, 04:32 PM
In the real world, you'd send your data and imagery to other astronomers to confirm, and on the off chance that none of them listened, you'd publish it online.

ClintACK
2016-06-16, 06:35 PM
In the real world, you'd send your data and imagery to other astronomers to confirm, and on the off chance that none of them listened, you'd publish it online.

Yep. And that takes time.

Which is why PCs frequently have to stop the necromancer from starting the zombie apocalypse all by themselves, because by the time they got word to the Emperor or the High Pontiff, the zombies would have already overrun an entire rural province and their numbers would be unstoppable.


"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." -- George S. Patton

The PCs are a good plan. The perfect plan is the high level NPCs, a thousand miles and a week of bureaucratic impediments away.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-16, 10:36 PM
Yep. And that takes time.


Now, today? Not really.

ClintACK
2016-06-17, 12:19 AM
Now, today? Not really.

It could -- hard to get astronomers to take Cthulu lore seriously.

But really I was thinking of a D&D campaign. No internet. The PCs are there. The high level NPCs are miles away. And not answering Sending from lowly and unimportant folks like the PCs.

Cluedrew
2016-06-17, 07:26 AM
On Time: I remember a story about the guy who was basically in charge of the Hubble telescope got it to point at the blackest region of the sky it could for three hours. They discovered a bunch of really far away stuff that had all sort of interesting implications, but if they hadn't then the guy probably would of had to retire over wasting three hours of the Hubble telescope's time. Time is a very valuable thing in outer space. Of course in the given set up they probably would not need the Hubble for it but it goes to show that maybe getting the time you need to make your case will not be as easy as it appears at first glance. Actually that could be the adventure on its own.

Max_Killjoy
2016-06-17, 09:02 AM
It could -- hard to get astronomers to take Cthulu lore seriously.

But really I was thinking of a D&D campaign. No internet. The PCs are there. The high level NPCs are miles away. And not answering Sending from lowly and unimportant folks like the PCs.

The thing I was responding to:


Imagine you're an amateur astronomer in the U.S. and you've discovered a comet on a collision course with the Earth. So you drive to D.C., park illegally in front of the White House gate, and try to make a real-world-equivalent of a Persuasion/Diplomacy check to get the guards to let you in to warn the President.

The fact that it is *true* that a comet is on a collision course will not help you.

To me, this was a mundane modern-day situation -- a plot that relied on "we must get to the president with our evidence of impending comet strike!" would fail the "do 10 minutes of homework" test on the grounds that you don't need to convince POTUS and you don't need to present your evidence in person. And yet we see movies built around this sort of crap, contrived to make for simple-minded "drama".

erikun
2016-06-17, 09:42 AM
Hi fellow DM's! I frequently run into a pitfall that I'd like some help with. Namely, when the PC's are charged with saving the world, how would I stop NPC allies from giving anything and everything the PC's ask for?
Then... don't do that?

Specifically, don't run plots where the PCs (and only the PCs) are charged with saving the world. Have them charged with stopping an invasion, or charged with finding what the necromancer is up to, or just have them free to stumble upon the plot to summon a demon into reality and they are the only ones who believe it. If the NPCs outright say that some unavoidable catastrophy is coming, personally pick out the PCs, and say that only the PCs can resolve the issue... then it becomes a bit silly to say they won't help the PCs at all. Not doing so makes the NPCs seem fickle, suicidally greedy, scheming, or some variation of strange.

In addition, not having an "Only you can save the world!" plot means more flexibility for the GM. If the PCs are fighting a battle to save the world and they lose, then... well, there's only one real outcome. Or it could be "you lost that fight but the REAL final battle is coming up," which feels a bit cheap. On the other hand, if it is a fight to stop an orc rampage, then there are plenty of things a PC group could do even after being beaten. They could retreat to the city to prepare defenses, they could spread out and try to get out a warning... or they could even get back, seeing the city destroyed, but still able to continue on afterwards.


When PC's need help and have proven to be capable of dealing with a very real threat, I often find myself having to come up with excuses not to have NPC allies give them wildly outleveled aid. Why shouldn't the local church teleport the PC's right to their destination (assuming they have capable casters)? Why shouldn't the king donate his best weapons and magic items to the PCs as they go to fight the demon on his doorstep? Why don't the shopkeepers give unbelievable discounts when it's that or let the world end?
Why not?

One thing about RPGs is that you skip over the boring bits. Most groups don't RP packing their backpacks and putting on their armor in the morning, because the interesting part of the day is when the PCs are out and about, not packing supplies. Most groups don't RP characters getting on their horses and wandering through the gates of the city, because the interesting part will be outside when they might be attacked, not trotting through the town roads.

And if the PCs have access to teleportation magic? Then the interesting part will be when the PCs arrive, not the long journey through the forest.

Just adjust your plans to the abilities that the PCs (and helpful NPCs) have on hand. If the NPCs can teleport, have the king offer to teleport the PCs right to the foot of the mountains so they can begin climbing their journey. If the NPCs have weapons, give the PCs good equipment before they head out. If the NPCs have some magic demon-slaying sword, then have the PCs carry it into battle - under the assumption that they return it afterwards, of course. I mean, it's not as if too much will matter after that battle; it's the end of the campaign, after all.

And if the PC wants to be a jerk and keep the super magic sword, then have the next campaign be about needing the sword to slay the next world-ending creature, but it was lost because the last hero Marcilus kept it for himself and got it lost in a crevace halfway between the Underdark and the Abyssal Demon Pits.

ClintACK
2016-06-17, 09:56 AM
To me, this was a mundane modern-day situation -- a plot that relied on "we must get to the president with our evidence of impending comet strike!" would fail the "do 10 minutes of homework" test on the grounds that you don't need to convince POTUS and you don't need to present your evidence in person. And yet we see movies built around this sort of crap, contrived to make for simple-minded "drama".

Yep. I've seen those movies. :)

I was trying to come up with an analogy to point out that just because the world actually is in danger, that doesn't mean the mid-level party can waltz into the palace and get the world's leaders/high-level NPCs to help.

But it's much easier to *see* that in a real-world scenario than a fantasy one. Hence, POTUS and a comet.

Getting that help would require a bunch of intermediaries. In our world, that *could* take the form of posting stuff online or emailing a bunch of astronomers -- if you can get anyone to listen to you. But even with the internet and modern communications, it could take too long. When it involves paper letters or lots of travel and waiting for "important" people to deign to see you...

Hence: Party's stuck saving the world.

(Of course, a campaign that's one "save-the-world" plot after another becomes Buffyesque ("I find myself needing to know the plural of Apocalypse.").)

Flickerdart
2016-06-17, 11:23 AM
if they hadn't then the guy probably would of had to retire over wasting three hours of the Hubble telescope's time
If a scientist had to retire every time he ran an experiment and got a negative result, we would have no more scientists.

Bohandas
2016-06-17, 12:00 PM
What if the main magic item vendor was a yugoloth in disguise looking to profit off of whatever disaster the PCs are dealing with

Cluedrew
2016-06-17, 03:37 PM
If a scientist had to retire every time he ran an experiment and got a negative result, we would have no more scientists.Well he also did say he was almost ready to retire, so it maybe it was just it would be easier to retire and kill all the negative feelings that way than sort them out. Also, not every experiment involves a unique piece of multi-billion dollar equipment. That raises the stakes a little.

Jay R
2016-06-18, 07:06 AM
It's very easy to come up with a scenario (the world is about to end, so everybody living in the world would help the PCs) that would mess up the game.

The simple solution is to not invent something that will mess up your own game.

neonagash
2016-06-19, 07:55 PM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

Nah not really. Everyone sleeps after all and just because a kingdom doesn't have oodles of magic lying around doesn't mean they can't put out a bounty on a band of high level miscreants to entice other high level miscreants to kill them.

Bohandas
2016-06-19, 10:50 PM
Possibly the PCs aren't the only people working on the issue and/or aren't expected to succeed even with help (or conversely are expected to succeed even without it)

Jay R
2016-06-20, 08:32 AM
Hmm, fair points, thank you. Follow up question though: if NPCs can't help because they're weaker/have less resources than PCs, then doesn't that kind of invalidate any law force? I realize a lot of running a game trusts PCs not to be 'chaotic stupid', but that seems to give PCs a ton of agency in a city even if they don't make use of it.

Edit: in my view this mainly concerns D&D 3.5 games of levels ~8 and higher

That depends on what the PCs are trying to do. In an epidemic, cops can't help much because they have fewer resources than doctors, but they would be quite capable of stopping the doctors from robbing banks.

Only hobbits could resist the corruption of the Ring, but the city guard of Minas Tirith could have stopped a hobbit crime wave.
Only James Bond could have stopped the villain's plan, but he had no facilities for holding villains afterwards.

The major purpose of city guards is to protect the city from criminals, not to defeat world-threatening villains. If they are still catching the pickpockets and burglars, then they are not invalidated, any more than a nearby army base invalidates a local police force.

Temperjoke
2016-06-20, 09:14 AM
A good way to look at this is via Game of Thrones. Let's say you toss a party of adventurers, all of them wellborn or at least with enough notoriety that people will listen to them, into this world to stop the BBEG, the Night King. Now, everyone should help your party, it'd be insane not to. Instead, no one believes the threat is real, since they haven't seen such a thing in centuries. You have countries waging war on each other, so no one can actually spare troops to support you, as they'd be weakened against the other countries. After all, what good is saving the world, assuming you are correct about this person being the danger he is, when everyone counting on me to protect them are dead? You have the religious figures plotting to take control as well, and you might not be of their faith, so why should they help a non-believer when they need their strength to take control of the prize in front of them?


On the other hand, there is something that can almost always be supplied without causing problems: general resources. I don't mean troops, or a magic weapon arsenal. I mean things like traveling supplies such as food, water, medical supplies. Kings can often send a non-combatant servant to take care of camp and the animals. They may be able to provide information, maps of their kingdom, letters of reference with local nobility and town leadership. Religious leaders can provide references and even free shelter in various churches within their religion's influence (of course, there probably wouldn't be alcohol, and wouldn't be as comfortable as an inn, but it'd be free). Standard soldier armaments can be provided as well, like the armor and weapons the troops use. Depending on how much time you have in the game, perhaps your party's wizard would like to spend some time in the library and expand his spellbook?

Mystral
2016-06-20, 10:05 AM
I usually dodge this problem by making the campaign about something else than saving the world, a kingdom or something like that.

Aotrs Commander
2016-06-21, 07:17 AM
The other obvious solution is to that all the high-level resources are busy stopping the OTHER end-of-the-world scenario, which is EVEN WORSE (on account of it being, like, Epic level or something), because OF COURSE it happens to coincide, these these always do on mystical convergences and whatnot. Trouble is, EITHER one of these events coming to pass is the end of the world if they fail, but the higher level threat started earlier.

Or some not-world-ending but nearly-as-bad threat is waiting in the wings, like a dark god or something, on the basis they can hedge their bets - if the world doesn't end, the they can sweep in and mop up. So if resources are not used to prevent that, even if the PCs save the world, for at least part of it, the difference may be immaterial. Or even just a mundane threat like Badguy McInvasionArmy is on the borders and all the hgh-level resources are there.

(Note that in all cases of world-ending, there needs to be some time pressure. If there isn't, well, there's no reason for the PCs not to sit back and wait for the big guns to go save the day, or just go grind until they ARe the bug guns.)



Or you Gandalf the situation by sending along all the top-level resources as a distraction to the epic level [whatever] that the PCs cannot hope to defeat and cover the PCs while the PCs go in and fight the Level-Appropriate-Villain and doo the actual day-saving.

ILM
2016-06-23, 07:18 AM
I will be blunt. The problem is the actual plot of "if we don't stop X, all life as we know it will be doomed forever and ever." This is lazy writing. A campaign threat should not end all life and destroy everything. It should remarkably change the world. Maybe not even make it worse for everyone. Maybe some people should like what the BBEG is proposing (and not just out of mustache twirling villainy but because of actual benefits).
This is one of the best answers I've read here, IMO.

Bohandas
2016-06-23, 08:31 AM
In the Elder Evils supplement, the titular beings all had powers that worked specifically against the gods and their servants

pi4t
2016-06-25, 08:31 PM
For NPCs who are weaker than the PCs but who could still provide useful support, you can always invoke the prisoner's dilemma. "Yeah, saving the world is important, but whether I give the heroes my 400gp life savings isn't going to make any real difference to the result. If the heroes fail, then they'd almost certainly have failed even with my money; if they succeed, then by not throwing my money at them I've saved myself from poverty."