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daremetoidareyo
2016-06-12, 03:27 PM
"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

This build works off of the drow E6 gish (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=5111.msg73307#msg73307) and takes it in another direction: what if we used the initiate of ellistrea feat to qualify for force missile mage?

Now, I expect that there are three large criticisms to this build:
1.) Initiate feat granted SLAs may not count as racial SLAs.

But seeing as how the initiate feat requires a specific race, it is arguable that indeed the SLA is powered by race SLAs and without being drow, you cannot access the ability. Seeing as how losing your drowning race would exclude you from using the SLA, it isn't too wild of an argument.

2.) Magic in the Blood is a once off bonus to the number of racial SLAs you currently have and does not extend to SLAs acquired later.

The feat says: "You can use your racial spell-like abilities more often than you otherwise could. Any ability that is otherwise usable once per day is now usable three times per day." This one is hard to argue, but isn't impossible. The feat is MAGIC IN THE BLOOD, if that blood gets more ability to be magical, then so it should advance the SLAs granted by feats that come later in levels. It also says "any ability".

3.) That is a lot of racial paragon levels! Are you sure that a half drow can take all of them?

Quit it with your bi-racial erasure. Actually, the drow blood racial ability reads "Drow Blood. For all special abilities and effects, a half-drow is considered a drow." And Half elf paragon's divided ancestry allows human paragon levels. So it should all work out.





Level
Class
Feat




1


Half Elf Paragon
Drow legacy (dotu 220), Magic in the blood (PGTF 40)




2


divine counter spell Cleric
Travel devotion (CC p.62)




3


Drow paragon
Initiate of Elistrae (CoV 30)




4


Human paragon






5


Human paragon
Combat Casting




6


Human paragon
Master of shadow (Dotu 51)




7


Force missile mage






8


Force missile mage






9


Force missile mage
Mortalbane (BOVD 49)




10


Force missile mage






11


Force missile mage





12




Empowered Spell like ability (MM)






So the premise is relatively simple:

Drow Legacy provides a 1/day dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire with a caster level equaling your class level. Magic in the Blood bumps up your usage per day of each of these feats to 3/day. Half Elf paragon grants an extra feat at first level and the ability to take more than one paragon racial class, except not both elf paragon and human paragon. Lucky that you're taking Drow paragon instead of elf paragon, amiright?

Then you dip cleric, and with eilistraee as a patron deity, you can probably get travel devotion in place of one of your lame domain choices. Cleric 1 allows you to take your initiate feat. Ranger 4 can also allow the same thing if you wanted a totally non-castery build.

Drow Paragon advances your cleric casting level as well as grants an additional casting of each of your racial SLAs: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire, and magic missile, bringing you to 4 magic missiles a day. Initiate of Ellistrae allows you to spend any one of those racial SLAs 1/day to cast magic missile with a caster level equal to your class level. If magic in the blood comports to racial SLAs gained by feats, that means that you have a 3/day magic missile at level 3.

Next, we lean on the other half of your ancestry, the humans, for 3 levels of human paragon. We are doing this for the bonus feat. The later two levels of the class advance casting, and as a bonus you have an adaptive skill that you can now use to qualify for whatever prestige class that you are craving. The bonus feat is used for the lunker of a feat combat casting, a force missile mage pre-req. At sixth level, master of shadow adds yet another use of racial SLAs, bringing you up to 5 magic missile castings a day, (in addition to darkness, dancing lights, and faerie fire).

Next comes five levels of force missile mage (FMM). Weirdly enough, the prestige class doesn't require arcane casting. You need to be able to cast magic missile, have the combat casting feat, and have 9 ranks in both concentration and spellcraft.

At first and fifth levels of FMM you get an extra magic missile per casting. At second level he gets 1/day immediate casting of the shield spell as well as the ability to add acid, cold, electricity, or fire descriptor to any magic missile he casts. The mortalbane feat from BOVD adds 2d6 damage to your magic missiles when used against living nonoutsiders. Weirdly enough, it appears that the 2d6 can be per missile, so long as each missile targets a different target. FMM advances your cleric casting by 4 over the 5 levels bringing you up to 8th level cleric casting by level 11.

Spell like ability feats

12th level is where there is a branch in your tree. Consider empower spell like ability (MM) to add 150% to your magic missile damage. 1d4+1 averages to 3.5 damage per missile. Mortalbane averages an extra 7 damage per missile or per casting. So at 12th level you can inflict (7 x 3.5 + 7) 10 to 11 damage per target. If empowered that means that you can do 15 damage per target. Or if you send all of the missiles to hit a single target, you can deal 31 (or 46 empowered) damage per magic missile SLA.

Also consider purify spell like ability (BOED), which allows you to increase each of your damage dice types by one when cast against an evil enemy. Against a single evil enemy you would deal 7(1d6+1)+2d8 damage per magic missile casting, for an average of (4.5x9) ~40 damage.

Of course you can also maximize your spell like ability also, which, at level 12 yields 42 damage to a single enemy or 17 damage to seven different enemies.

Energy substitution

Now if you have a helpful DM, you might be able to argue that Force missile mage's energy missile ability counts as the energy substitution feat and thus allows you to qualify for the energy admixture feat from complete arcane. This will allow you to double the damage per missile. Further, if the DM goes for this, consider also/instead born of three thunders from complete arcane.

If energy admixture is a real option, consider taking both Cali****e elementalist:air and Cali****e elementalist: Fire can give you an extra missile, bringing the damage up to 8 missiles @ 2d4+2 + 4d6 (mortalbane). Born of three thunders triggers more saves for bonus effects and is probably the better way to go.

Other prestiges and dips.

Argent Savant
The short list of prestige classes to go into at level 12 include a 1 level argent savant dip to get an additional +1 to each of your seven magic missiles. For entry, you need to be able to cast 5 force spells: cleric allows you entry by the time you have access to 5th level cleric spells if you include magic missile:
alicorn lance (silver marches) 2nd
Silver charger (Heroes of Battle) 3rd
Divine retaliation (PHB2) 3rd
Spiritual weapon (SRD) 2nd
Stars of arvandor (BOED) 4th
Stars of mystra (CoV) 4th
Stars of Selune (CoV) 4th
Summon living dragonmark (dragonmarked) 3rd

Obviously, you need access to heighten spell to get one of those force spells to be 5th level. Blowing a feat for 1 more damage per missile might not be worth it considering that you can instead take maximize, purify, or empower spell like ability feats instead to get the same effect. But if you have a metamagic rod of heighten spell...definitely dip and take those feats instead.

Hierophant
If you are going the argent savant route, hierophant is a decent choice for a follow up prestige class once you get 5 more caster levels. So the stub would look like: halfelf paragon 1/cleric 1/drow paragon 1/human paragon 3/FMM 5/contemplative 1/Divine Disciple 4/heirophant 1/argent savant 1/other 2. Take the force domain with your contemplative dip and heighten spell at 15 to turn a heightened magic missile into an ability that you can use 5 times per day in addition to your other 5 magic missiles. Hierophant allows you to turn any spell into a spell like ability that you can use multiple times per day.

Visionary seeker
Seeing as how you have all of this Spell like ability feat based optimization, visionary seeker allows you to pile those feats on top of your mimicked spells. No real pre-reqs other than skills so this is a nice direction to go. But then again, your cleric spell casting will suffer.

Divine disciple
Imbue with spell ability shenanigans. Full casting progression. Skills only and 4th level casting prerequisites

Other ideas
A 1 level dip of warlock for darkness as an at will SLA will help. Seeker of the misty isle may be a good prestige to work into, further extending your cleric casting. Consider heretic of the faith for your 12th level feat or a 1 level contemplative dip and go doom dreamer from return to the temple of elemental evil, which doesn't have an alignment restriction. Suggestions are appreciated for other prestige options from there.

Vossler
2016-10-14, 09:43 PM
One thing with paragon classes once you took the drow paragon level you wouldn't qualify for the human paragon levels

Venger
2016-10-15, 12:46 AM
One thing with paragon classes once you took the drow paragon level you wouldn't qualify for the human paragon levels

he's treating the two sentences of divided ancestry as separate clauses:



Divided Ancestry (Ex)
1)Unlike other racial paragons, half-elves can take levels in more than one racial paragon class.

2)After gaining at least one level as a half-elf paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).

1) being read as "can take levels in any number of paragon classes if I meet the reqs"
2) being an exhaustive list of two classes you can't mix.

RAW, it's solid.

This build looks like a very pleasing end result, but those early levels will be a bit of a slog. let us know if you have cause to test it out. very imaginative. plus it gives argent savant a vague reason to exist. if you do dip warlock, don't forget to save a feat slot on instinctive darkness. heretic of the faith is one of my favorites and all, but it doesn't beat an always-on panic button

A_S
2016-10-15, 12:50 AM
One thing with paragon classes once you took the drow paragon level you wouldn't qualify for the human paragon levels
The Half-elf Paragon's Divided Ancestry feature is being used to get around this. I think the shakier part of the build is ruling that casting Magic Missile via Initiate of Elistraee is a racial SLA, but if your DM approves it, it's pretty cool.

Venger
2016-10-15, 01:03 AM
The Half-elf Paragon's Divided Ancestry feature is being used to get around this. I think the shakier part of the build is ruling that casting Magic Missile via Initiate of Elistraee is a racial SLA, but if your DM approves it, it's pretty cool.

Well, it does use your drow SLAs to fuel itself, so that certainly seems like ground to stand on.

SangoProduction
2016-10-15, 03:13 AM
Well, it does use your drow SLAs to fuel itself, so that certainly seems like ground to stand on.

mmm....I would like to say that logic doesn't really flow, and stay consistent. Imagine if Psychic Powers counted as feats because they were fueled by Wild Talent. The DCS would be insane.

There are probably other examples that work plenty well, but your use of the word "fuel" is locking my thought process.

Crake
2016-10-15, 07:26 AM
How does your build meet the "cleric or ranger 4th" prerequisite for initiate of eilistraee? I only see 1 level of cleric in there, and the paragon levels don't increase your cleric level, just your cleric casting, so they wouldn't help.

Also, force missile mage requires you to be able to CAST magic missile. SLAs do not let you qualify for casting, so that would not let you qualify the same way a drow's innate darkness ability does not let them qualify for classes that require you to be able to cast 2nd level spells.

daremetoidareyo
2016-10-15, 08:40 AM
If you need a RAW reference, see Complete Arcane, page 72, under the headings "Spellcasting Level" and "Specific Spell Requirements" (despite being in the Feats chapter, they specifically apply to PrCs as well).

The initiate feat requirement is to be a cleric or a 4th level ranger.

Venger
2016-10-15, 09:15 AM
mmm....I would like to say that logic doesn't really flow, and stay consistent. Imagine if Psychic Powers counted as feats because they were fueled by Wild Talent. The DCS would be insane.

There are probably other examples that work plenty well, but your use of the word "fuel" is locking my thought process.

Fair enough. I just can't see a gm getting that bent out of shape about it. it's not really a balance issue since this build is less powerful than a straight cleric if anything

Crake
2016-10-15, 09:17 AM
If you need a RAW reference, see Complete Arcane, page 72, under the headings "Spellcasting Level" and "Specific Spell Requirements" (despite being in the Feats chapter, they specifically apply to PrCs as well).

The initiate feat requirement is to be a cleric or a 4th level ranger.

Fair enough with regard to MM SLA qualification. The class requirement on the other hand is a bit more ambiguous though, if what you believe would have been intended, it would have been written as you did, or say "cleric 1st or ranger 4th" But since it's written as "cleric or ranger 4th" it's more implied to be (cleric or ranger) 4th.

Venger
2016-10-15, 09:25 AM
Fair enough with regard to MM SLA qualification. The class requirement on the other hand is a bit more ambiguous though, if what you believe would have been intended, it would have been written as you did, or say "cleric 1st or ranger 4th" But since it's written as "cleric or ranger 4th" it's more implied to be (cleric or ranger) 4th.

While that's certainly true grammatically (because when has wotc ever said anything syntactically ambiguous?) it sounds like you're trying to sniff out actual intent rather than just RAW.

bearing that in mind, what do cleric1 and ranger4 share in common? that's when each of the classes actually gets access to spells. this is also why the first spell it unlocks is a 1st and not a 2nd, something the ranger would actually be able to cast right away, assuming he took this as his 6th level feat.

but yeah, it could've certainly been phrased clearer.

SangoProduction
2016-10-15, 09:51 AM
Fair enough. I just can't see a gm getting that bent out of shape about it. it's not really a balance issue since this build is less powerful than a straight cleric if anything

I wasn't saying that I wouldn't as a GM. But I didn't like the logic presented. :-)

Mordaedil
2016-10-17, 04:24 AM
Does RAW just mean "I'm really bad at English"?

Darrin
2016-10-17, 06:51 AM
Does RAW just mean "I'm really bad at English"?

RAW = Rules As Written. It's an attempt to resolve rules disputes by parsing only the text as it's written in the rulebooks, without trying to guess what the authors/designers intended, and without relying on any personal interpretations of how the mechanics should work. There are many, many limitations to using RAW as a baseline, but when it works it provides a common ground for forum posters to discuss how the rules work in a hypothetical game world where all forum posters, regardless of their own house rules and personal preferences, can meaningfully participate. However, there are many situations where the RAW text is too ambiguous to determine a clear resolution. There are also many examples where following the RAW results in nonsensical/unplayable mechanics or abusable loopholes that destroy game balance. In these cases, all meaningful discussion ends with, "Decide whatever works best for your group." Then we continue to argue about it for a decade or so.

RAI = Rules As Intended/Interpreted. Generally, this our best guess at what we thought the authors/designers intended, usually because it "feels" more balanced. Sometimes there is a clear consensus where everyone agrees how the rules should work, and sometimes every single poster has their own personal RAI and we're still arguing about it decades later. Sometimes it's used as a shorthand to accuse a forum poster from inserting his/her own personal opinions into a rules discussion. This isn't inherently wrong, but such positions may be of limited use outside of the poster's personal experiences.

RACSD = Rules As Common Sense Dictates. This is similar to RAI, but in most cases the forum community has thrown out the RAW or RAI interpretation and come up with a more practical and functional reading that is more satisfying and quickly adjudicated when actually put into play. There's a RACSD thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240218-quot-Common-Sense-quot-approach-to-rules-(RACSD)) that attempts to compile most of the common RACSD fixes.