Character Death

[Shnigda]

Hey guys, so I just had my first character death (of a character that I had invested a lot into and was my favourite of all the characters I've played over the years).
It was in the Tomb of Horrors, so it should have been expected, but I don't really agree with how the DM handled it and was hoping for a bit of input from you guys about it.

There is a trap at one point where there is a floor trap that slides you into a lava trap (that we didn't know existed as it's behind a door).
We discovered the trap and figured out it slides you towards a door and my character and another decided to trigger it (as we thought we had to go through the door to advance). We slid down into a lava pit and had to make a reflex save to avoid falling in. Before triggering it I and the other guy triggering the trap both said that we brace ourselves and prepare to jump out of the way at the bottom (seeing as we were knowingly activating the trap). Instead of allowing us a jump check of anything, we just made a reflex save (which I failed by 1).
This meant we fell into the lava, I took 80 damage (just about surviving) before climbing out of the lava, the other character took 81 damage and died instantly. On the next round I took 36 residual lava damage and took me to being unconscious, 1 point away from outright death but out of the lava. One of the remaining 2 party members tried to throw a lasso to catch me and supposedly rolled a natural 1 (rolled in private by the DM of course) (he originally said he rolled a 2 and then went back and said that it was a 1... the only roll that would have killed my character), failing the check by 2. The other party member wanted to 'aid another' before the roll was made but the DM said no, even though both characters were rogues proficient in rope use, thereby dooming my character to die.

Additionally, we found out at the end of the session that the DM will be ending the campaign when we end the Tomb of Horrors, so I feel like the DM may have wanted to kill off a couple of characters before finishing up as a DM (so he might have fudged a roll to make sure we died, but that is just a possibility, not very likely...).

How do you think the DM dealt with this whole thing? I thought that a +1 circumstance bonus to the reflex save would have been reasonable due to the knowledge of the trap and being fully prepared, or at least a jump check as we wanted... Either one of these would have saved the character and I wouldn't have a this sour taste in my mouth.

[Hal0Badger]

I usually give +2/-2 bonus/penalty depending on the situation and character approach. In your situation, you braced yourself, so it would be probably a +2 reflex save bonus for the giving situation for me.

But that does not mean he played it wrong or something. Unless he fudges some dices, it is up to DM determine what is possible and what is not, especially it is not well covered in the rules. Only situation I would argue is that disallowing other player to use "aid another" action. Did he give any reason why he disallowed that?

[Shnigda]

It did seem like he might have fudged the die roll that finally killed my character... (though a 5% chance is always possible I guess)
But no, he didn't give any reason for why Aid Another couldn't be done...
All very annoying really

[Yahzi]

The fact that you opened a door means you deserved to die. When I went through the Tomb, we sent summoned creatures to touch, open, and tread on every square inch before we entered the room.

We still all died.

[Shnigda]

We were using characters that we had been using in a campaign for almost a year, they weren't specially designed for the Tomb... We had no way of summoning creatures or anything.
As an aside, the character deaths have turned out to be the last action of the whole campaign. The DM has just informed us that he will be disbanding it as he is burned out. Slightly disappointing end to what had been a great 3-year-long campaign up to that point.

[Pont]

If you strongly disagree with the DM, just keep using the character in a new campaign (or at least the character concept and personality)
If not, you now have a good story about him being a victim to the legendary Tomb Of Horrors!

Dont have a sour taste in you mouth, what is done is done. It's how you use the experience that matters.

[Geddy2112]

It is a shame that you effectively were in a "rocks fall, everyone dies" situation. Character death under more heroic or tragic circumstances is actually pretty interesting and a good momento mori when the PC's get a bit too full of themselves.

Shake it off, save the concept for another game, focus on the bright sides, and move on.

For your situation, you should have had a positive modifier, or a skill check vs a save where you can expect a chance of success. That said, playing with traps is dangerous business and sometimes we learn the hard way.

[weckar]

You made a faulty assumption about the door. The fact that characters get to make a reflex save at all is BECAUSE they are braced for disaster at all times. Other than the possible fudge (which you can't prove), I say this was ran exactly by the book.

[Sliver]

Let's see...

Being prepared for something doesn't mean that you are necessarily quick enough to act in response to it. You make a jump check as part of your movement, and you need a move action for that. You can't ready an action to trigger in response to something that would only happen in response to another action that you must take. Other characters should be able to ready an action in response to something that you trigger, but not you. So yes, the reflex check is still appropriate in this case, though I would have probably given you a +2 circumstantial modifier for knowing what to expect.

Use Rope is a skill check, so a nat 1 isn't an automatic failure. You said that the natural one led to failing the check by 2, which means that a 2 would have still led to a failure. So 1 wouldn't be the only result that leads to failure, right?

On the other hand, the DM shouldn't usually roll for players' skill checks, except for a few cases such as sense motive, where knowing the result would influence the player. Use Rope falls under this only in the case where you are climbing, "this check is made secretly, so that you don’t know whether the rope will hold your weight." But in your case, since there was no opportunity to retry if you were to fail, the only reason to roll in secret is if there is an intention to fudge.

As for the aid another, it doesn't always apply. It usually won't, really. It can be easily argued that for lasso throwing, it would not. Aid Another can't even help with normal ranged combat. But if the DM was unwilling to give a reasoning, it could just as well mean that he really didn't have a valid reason, and did just want to kill another character.

[Esprit15]

That same trap killed two of my players when I sent them through there. Lava traps are brutal, as is Tomb of Horrors in general.

It does sound a little like your DM wanted to kill you guys. While technically speaking, he didn't break any rules (nothing says you have to give a bonus on reflex saves), I would have in that situation, or allowed you to respond in some other way if you failed the reflex save. For example, one of the players that died tried to pull out a flying broom, which I allowed if he could make a lower reflex save.

...he did not succeed on that save, either.

[nedz]

Use Rope falls under this only in the case where you are climbing, "this check is made secretly, so that you don’t know whether the rope will hold your weight." But in your case, since there was no opportunity to retry if you were to fail, the only reason to roll in secret is if there is an intention to fudge.

I prefer the delayed skill check method here - it adds more suspense.

Basically the PC ties the rope, but you don't check the skill until the rope is under stress.

[Âmesang]

If you strongly disagree with the DM, just keep using the character in a new campaign (or at least the character concept and personality)
If not, you now have a good story about him being a victim to the legendary Tomb Of Horrors!
This reminds me of a particular rule that says the dead know the identities of those who try to revive them, including alignment and deity worshiped…

…but what if the character didn't know? What if your character found himself alive for no adequately explained reason? Now he could try and find out how/why he came back. :smallsmile: Instant (if minor) backstory/long-term goal!

[Zanos]

A reflex save is the appropriate roll. I would have personally given a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll for being prepared, but that's DM dependent and he's not obligated to give it. The heat from the lava probably would have destroyed something made of rope, even had the thrower not rolled a one. Between that and the fact that you take lava damage at the beginning of your turn, I think you were dead either way.

The Tomb of Horrors is horrible. It should only be played or ran expecting everyone to die. If the DM intended to quit either way, it's an interesting challenge to see whether or not your characters can handle it, but I wouldn't ever run it unless it was a run off or I was otherwise finished DMing.

It is interesting to see an anecdote where ToH actually killed an existing campaign.

[Sliver]

I prefer the delayed skill check method here - it adds more suspense.

Basically the PC ties the rope, but you don't check the skill until the rope is under stress.

True, but there is still more suspense to seeing the roll rather than having the DM tell you that he "rolled a 2... Wait, no, actually it's a 1"...

Zanos does have a point, if it was a mundane rope, it wouldn't have worked anyway.

On the other hand, if the story is accurate, it does give off a feel of "I just want to kill a character or two before I wrap this up forever" rather than the DM wanting to be fair...

[Enguebert]

Well, Tomb of Horrors is a nightmare and designed to kill most groups.
Most deaths will come from traps, and there are lot of traps where you will not even have a body to do a raise dead.

It is possible to survive this dungeon, but usual characters will probably die because it is not your firepower or your AC that will help you but
- high spot/search skills
- high save
- utility spells/miscallenous magic item (feather fall/levitate/fly spells are better than rope/reflex safe)
- be paranoid
- be more paranoid : if you find a trap, you can be sure that the real trap will kill those who use the usual way to avoid the first trap
- don't be the one who open the door because the trap will hit the opener
- don't be the one that will not open the door because the trap will hit those not close to the door :-)
- be lucky
- and a good knowledge of D&D helps a lot. There aren't lot of fights, but when there is a fight, you must identify quickly the enemy and know how to kill it. And pray for not being the first target :-)

[KillianHawkeye]

We were using characters that we had been using in a campaign for almost a year, they weren't specially designed for the Tomb..

Well, that was your first mistake. Never go to the Tomb of Horrors with characters that you actually care about.

[Thurbane]

Well, that was your first mistake. Never go to the Tomb of Horrors with characters that you actually care about.

Seconded.

ToH is the most famous PC meat-grinder adventure there is.

It was (arguably) designed for 1E with the idea you would go in with a horde of henchman/followers and have them activate most of the traps.

[Darrin]

It was (arguably) designed for 1E with the idea you would go in with a horde of henchman/followers and have them activate most of the traps.

I wouldn't say it was designed that way. Gygax's original idea was he wanted to humble a few players in his local group. In one account, he mentions Terry Kuntz's PC Terik and Ernie Gygax's PC Tenser were the first to try the tomb, but when they saw how deadly it was, they decided "discretion was the better part of valor" and left rather than go any deeper. In the intro to Return to the Tomb of Horrors, he says he was trying to foil Ernie's Tenser and Rob Kuntz's Robilar. When Rob Kuntz tried it with Robilar (13th level), it was his idea to hire 14 orc hirelings and send them in first. It sounds like this surprised Gygax, but most of them died in the first hallway, and they didn't contribute much beyond that. Robilar made it to the final vault, but rather than face the demilich, he just stuffed a bunch of treasure into his bag of holding and hightailed it out of there with his boots of speed. He mentioned that Ernie eventually defeated the demilich, but doesn't say how.

[Bronk]

It did seem like he might have fudged the die roll that finally killed my character... (though a 5% chance is always possible I guess)
But no, he didn't give any reason for why Aid Another couldn't be done...
All very annoying really

I looked into this, and your DM was right (whether he knew it or not). The lasso is statted out as a weapon in the Book of Exalted Deeds, so when your friends were trying to save you, they were actually making ranged attacks against you, and unfortunately you can only 'aid another' in combat for melee, not ranged. Also, if your DM really did roll a one in that instance, it would indeed be an automatic failure anyway.

I know it's far to late (sorry about your game), but next time something like this comes up, you could tie everyone up ahead of time instead leaving it to chance.

[KillianHawkeye]

tie everyone up ahead of time instead leaving it to chance.

This x10 !

:smallsmile:

[jjcrpntr]

A reflex save is the appropriate roll. I would have personally given a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll for being prepared, but that's DM dependent and he's not obligated to give it. The heat from the lava probably would have destroyed something made of rope, even had the thrower not rolled a one. Between that and the fact that you take lava damage at the beginning of your turn, I think you were dead either way.

The Tomb of Horrors is horrible. It should only be played or ran expecting everyone to die. If the DM intended to quit either way, it's an interesting challenge to see whether or not your characters can handle it, but I wouldn't ever run it unless it was a run off or I was otherwise finished DMing.

It is interesting to see an anecdote where ToH actually killed an existing campaign.

I agree I'd have done the same. I would have given them a reflex save. If they make the save they are able to react and jump to safety. I don't think the DM did anything fishy unless like the guy suggested he was trying to kill people off because he was worn out. I've gotten there with my players and I usually just call a break for awhile rather than doing something that pisses people off and costs me good players.

[Darth Ultron]

So lets put it this way: your proposing a house rule of ''if a character is prepared they can make a skill based movement check in place of a reflex save to avoid a hostile effect.''

So, for example, if a character is prepared, they can make a jump check and not a reflex save to avoid a fireball.

Well, that would be a huge rule change that just gets rid of a lot of reflex saves. And if you were trying to do a new house rule, you might have wanted to make it more official.

In any case....and this is really general role play character advice: never use your character to activate a trap. This is what henchmen are for. You hire a couple of torch bearers for a couple coppers and use them to activate traps. You know...like the comic Nordwick...