Worst or Strangest Prcs for 3.5

[Triskavanski]

So I've been wondering with Gestalt and Tristalt games, what are some of those weird, strange or even terribly bad PrCs that actually do work when you are you using those kinds of rules or other house rules.

Like Master of Masks is pretty bad after the first few levels.

[Troacctid]

Green Star Adept comes to mind. It's terrible in a normal game, but an absurd caster level boost in gestalt.

[AvatarVecna]

So I've been wondering with Gestalt and Tristalt games, what are some of those weird, strange or even terribly bad PrCs that actually do work when you are you using those kinds of rules or other house rules.

Like Master of Masks is pretty bad after the first few levels.

Most caster PrCs that aren't full progression (or fast progression, like Ur-Priest) are generally considered terrible in regular play, but are much more solid in gestalt/tristalt: Mindbender is fantastic as a 1-level dip, but adding the other 9 levels on without giving up caster levels is wonderful on a Beguiler build; Arcane Archer is largely considered fairly terrible if you can't get good spells to go with it, but when you can get 9ths from your other tracks...

[A_S]

Most caster PrCs that aren't full progression (or fast progression, like Ur-Priest) are generally considered terrible in regular play, but are much more solid in gestalt/tristalt: Mindbender is fantastic as a 1-level dip, but adding the other 9 levels on without giving up caster levels is wonderful on a Beguiler build; Arcane Archer is largely considered fairly terrible if you can't get good spells to go with it, but when you can get 9ths from your other tracks...
I mean, even if I were playing gestalt, I still think I'd drop Arcane Archer after level 2. Does it get any remotely worthwhile class features besides Imbue Arrow?

Master Transmogrifist is definitely in the "cool class features, but loses too many caster levels" camp. It's notable because it has class features that specifically support the Shapechange spell, but it's practically impossible to finish the class and also be able to cast Shapechange by level 20.

Geomancer definitely allows some cool stuff in Gestalt, where getting multiple kinds of casting isn't as hard as in regular play.

Master of the Unseen Hand is bad because it loses all the caster levels, but I'm not sure it does anything cool enough to bother with, even in gestalt.

Some of the specialist theurge classes that don't provide full casting progression, like True Necromancer or Yathrinshee, can be pretty cool in gestalt if theurge classes are allowed.

[khadgar567]

you want strongest gestalt combo here is the one side synthesist summoner with following evolutions

energy immunity ( all of them) 10 points
fast heal 5 12 points
camping requirements remaining points

on other side I probably go some sphere caster and get destruction sphere so I have impenetrable shield (aka eidolon) and unblock able attack (sphere blast)

[DrKerosene]

My first thought usually goes to a Duskblade13+//Arcane Duelist type build.

Have you seen SorO's "Abusing the Omnislash" entry?

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=q9ht56a0jf9q9o1q7gpb6dieu7&topic=11530.msg195510#msg195510

[AvatarVecna]

you want strongest gestalt combo here is the one side synthesist summoner with following evolutions

energy immunity ( all of them) 10 points
fast heal 5 12 points
camping requirements remaining points

on other side I probably go some sphere caster and get destruction sphere so I have impenetrable shield (aka eidolon) and unblock able attack (sphere blast)

Thread title and first post both specify 3.5 PrCs, response involves neither in any capacity.

*golf clap*

[Sir Chuckles]

The Swanmay, from BoED, always struck me as very, very strange.

Beyond simply the awkward mechanics of it, such as Vow of Purity and a rank in Speak Language as requirements, multiple RP parts, and being almost completely restricted to Druid or Ranger, it's not that great of a PrC. Yeah, 9/10 casting, full BaB, and a d8 hitdie, making the chassis respectable for the two classes most obvious for it, but the actual class features are confusing at best. At will Speak with Animals/Plants gained at 5/6, some Charm Spells, and the ability to turn into a swan.

I guess a Ranger could use it as an awkward and inelegant (Or moderately elegant, given it's a swan) way to qualify for other PrCs without being a Wildshape Ranger, but I feel that that would involve some very niche cases of allowed materials.

[Gnaeus]

Well, the leviathan hunter/reaping mauler trick is well known. (For the new, Reaping mauler requires clever wrestling, but clever wrestling has a size category limit, which keeps you from getting large enough to grapple most things. Leviathan hunter grants clever wrestling and specifically ignores the prereqs.) Tragically, you wind up with a full BAB character who has the bare bones needs of grappling, but nothing else.

Now, if you stick on the other side, something mid BAB but capable of size changing, like //Druid or //Psy Warrior, you finally get something that should be good at grappling, melee, and probably not terrible at anything else.

[Willie the Duck]

Just about any PrC where the opportunity cost for it in non-gestalt play is that you don't advance one of the important class abilities for the class that normally leads into it. Master Transmogrifist and Master of the Unseen hand have been mentioned, but I expect Master of Many Forms would as well.

[Telonius]

Hierophant would probably be near the top of my list. Usually it requires a Cleric 13 to decide that, hey, this whole spellcasting thing isn't all it's cracked up to be. A few of the abilities are pretty nice (Divine Reach in particular), but almost never see play because of the loss of spellcaster levels. Gestalted? That's a serious consideration.

[Triskavanski]

Well there is also Master of Masks, which seems fun, but difficult to use.

http://img02.deviantart.net/ff89/i/2012/169/d/8/ota_sun07___hexadecimal_by_houkou_nrl-d51p738.png

[Flickerdart]

Risen Martyr is great, because the capstone is "you die forever."

[Inevitability]

Risen Martyr is great, because the capstone is "you die forever."

It's just 'you ascend onto the upper planes'. There's a 5th-level spell that can do that.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Non-full-progressing theurge classes (True Necromancer, Yathrinshee, Mind Mage, Geomancer, Ultimate Magus, even Dweomerkeeper, in a sense) are not just easier to combine with full casting (plus secondary casting that's actually useful), but they also come online earlier (usually about three levels), allowing you to use them in actual games. This depends a bit on how your group plays, of course. If early entry is fine, the difference is smaller.

Incidentally, the Yathrinshee is very good with anything that boosts caster level (in regular play, too, but much less worth it, because you lose a few CL to enter). Add Circle Magic and (greater) consumptive field - CL 180 necromancy, no problem. The Horned Harbinger is non-casting, but adds your level to your caster level for animate dead, allowing you to get CL 25 at level 15. Works nice with Hierophant on a straight cleric gestalt.

[Triskavanski]

Risen Martyr is great, because the capstone is "you die forever."

I think Risen Martyr is great for the "Crap my character died! We've got no resurrection and we can't get in a replacement character in the middle of nowhere"

But that probably never happens

[Troacctid]

I think Risen Martyr is great for the "Crap my character died! We've got no resurrection and we can't get in a replacement character in the middle of nowhere"

But that probably never happens
Well, sure, if you happen to already have the Nimbus of Light feat for some weird reason. Kind of like how blackguard is a great backup plan for a fallen paladin who just randomly happened to take Improved Sunder. It's not terribly practical.

[Flickerdart]

Blackguard has pretty much one use - when you go from paladin 11 to paladin 1/blackguard 10, you end up with 4th level spells much earlier than as a straight paladin, opening some decent prestige class options (such as Nar demonbinder).

[Inevitability]

Non-full-progressing theurge classes (True Necromancer, Yathrinshee, Mind Mage, Geomancer, Ultimate Magus, even Dweomerkeeper, in a sense) are not just easier to combine with full casting (plus secondary casting that's actually useful), but they also come online earlier (usually about three levels), allowing you to use them in actual games. This depends a bit on how your group plays, of course. If early entry is fine, the difference is smaller.

Only problem: the gestalt rules explicitly disallow theurge classes.

[Falcon X]

If you can use Dragon Magazine, Mole was a fun PrC. This rogue prestige class gave you a quick burrow speed, the ability to do so through solid stone, and the ability to x-ray vision through all earth matter.

My craziest build utilized a 7-eyestalk Half Beholder from the 3rd party sourcebook Bastards and Bloodlines. I'm not sure I have the exact numbers here, but I think it was:
- Race7/Rogue3/Ur-Priest 3/Mole 2/Spellwarp Sniper 5
- The abomination could sling level 8 divine spells, burrow through solid rock, and pop his head up underneath people and shoot out of seven eyestalks doing both the effect and 5d6 sneak attack damage EACH.

[Immabozo]

For a melee character, I think War Hulk is a great one. Although I like the PrC a lot, it is, in actual fact, bad. Level 1 gives you a disability that makes most skills useless, on top of 0 BAB progression, I think there are only 1 or 2 PrC with 0 BAB progression. But you do get the ability to hit 3 squares with each attack, throw boulders that hit 4 squares, and get +2 str per level, instead of BAB. Also D12 HD, IIRC.

As a chassis for a melee character that then gets full BAB progression, maybe an initiator class?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Only problem: the gestalt rules explicitly disallow theurge classes.
Only the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster.

[Troacctid]

Only the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster.

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations—such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight—should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant."

[ExLibrisMortis]

"Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations—such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight—should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant."
First: key word 'should'. A strange way to phrase a rule, which may in fact indicate a suggestion. But that's beside the point now...

It's never defined what 'essentially class combinations' are, and, since even the examples they give don't appear to fit 'essentially class combinations' anymore than a ranger is 'essentially a druid', it's a completely empty rule. It's well-known that theurges and gishes play and build differently, not like a full casters (especially mailmen, SoS casters, BFC casters, and other in-combat casters), and not like mundanes (although the full attack is quite important, but then that's one of the few things mundanes have at all). Suggesting that a sorcadin is 'essentially a class combination' is ridiculous.

Actually, a reasonable interpretation would be: 'essentially class combinations' includes any class which advances casting and has full base attack... but wait, rangers and paladins. Okay, how about this: any class which advances casting and has sneak attack... but then, spellthief. Any class that has two types of casting? Then what about Yathrinshee and True Necromancer, which are specialized along schools, and are meant to present a different concept than your standard divine (or arcane) specialist? You're in gestalt, the best place to play a dual caster, and you don't get to pick classes that allow you to meld spellcasting abilities? That can't be the point of the 'rule', can it?

In short: the rule is badly written, can only be useful as a bit of advice to DMs, and even that barely. I'm ignoring it for the purposes of theoretical discussions.

[darksolitaire]

Gestalt rules are basically glorified homebrew. Since they are adressed to the DM ruling about prestige classes could be read in the context of DMG ruling, which says that prestige classes by themselves are completely under the purview of DM.

[mabriss lethe]

Shadowdancer works much better in gestalt. You get some neat sneaky abilities and a relatively nasty minion while still being able to progress things like sneak attack or spellcasting

[Jormengand]

Disciple of the Word and Acolyte of the Ego become strangely convincing on a truespeak character when in gestalt (Yes, I think I'll have total concealment from Word Given Form Mastery which is easy to get as a DotW, immediate-action movement and dispels from DotW, and at-will dimension door from AotE...). Don't try to tell me that DotW is a theurge.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Don't try to tell me that DotW is a theurge.
... okay, I won't.

But the designers said it anyway...! And I got this great soulknife/monk combination...

[Cosi]

I think Gestalt bans doubling up on PrCs, but getting Planar Wild Shape and the Warshaper's Multimorph gives you a version of shapechange which, while restricted to one plane, lasts hour/level and grants SLAs. That could be fun.

[Garktz]

I dont have any books with me right now but i had a revelation.....

Beholder on one side, beholder mage on the other
9Lvl spells at lvl 10 and then work from that

[Southern Cross]

Dragon kith from Arcana Evolved:
Yes you gain powerful abilities, but for a 10 level PrC that has the Dragon Mage racial feat as a prerequisite, having it only advance spellcasting by four levels at 10th level makes it a trap- even in a setting where your character can advance to 25th level!

[ILM]

For a melee character, I think War Hulk is a great one. Although I like the PrC a lot, it is, in actual fact, bad. Level 1 gives you a disability that makes most skills useless, on top of 0 BAB progression, I think there are only 1 or 2 PrC with 0 BAB progression. But you do get the ability to hit 3 squares with each attack, throw boulders that hit 4 squares, and get +2 str per level, instead of BAB. Also D12 HD, IIRC.

As a chassis for a melee character that then gets full BAB progression, maybe an initiator class?
A Skillful weapon from CA more than solves your BAB problem without gestalting.

[Inevitability]

I dont have any books with me right now but i had a revelation.....

Beholder on one side, beholder mage on the other
9Lvl spells at lvl 10 and then work from that

Obvious issue: Beholders aren't playable by default.

Depending on the way one rules things, two Polymorph any Object spells could work, as may a Divine Minion's wildshape combined with Aberration Wild Shape.