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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Sacred Oath: Oath of the Seraph [PEACH]



DracoKnight
2016-06-12, 06:12 PM
This is something I've been working on for my world over the last couple of days. For you consideration: I give you the Oath of the Seraph (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/03/oath-of-seraph.html#more)! :smallbiggrin:

JNAProductions
2016-06-12, 06:48 PM
Celestial Armor should be higher level. It's outright better than Shield of Faith.

Wings of Zephyr is maybe underleveled?

As a side note, that is a REALLY good Domain spell list. Maybe tone it down a little.

The CD was almost too good, till I saw it gave exhaustion. Both seem fine.

Aura of Radiance is too good, even with the exhaustion bit.

HOLY CRAP! Angelic Body makes the CD and Aura just WAY TOO STRONG, since you're immune to its penalty.

Ascension is a bit much, even for a Paladin capstone. I'd nerf it a little.

Overall... DracoKnight, you were so good for a little while. You were cranking out homebrew that was tightly balanced. But now? You're back to overpowering it. This needs to be toned down considerably.

DracoKnight
2016-06-12, 07:04 PM
Celestial Armor should be higher level. It's outright better than Shield of Faith.

Okay, so probably a 2nd level spell? Or make it +1 to AC?


Wings of Zephyr is maybe underleveled?

As a side note, that is a REALLY good Domain spell list. Maybe tone it down a little.

Okay.


The CD was almost too good, till I saw it gave exhaustion. Both seem fine.

Yup, it's exhausting to pour out your soul to someone :smallwink:


Aura of Radiance is too good, even with the exhaustion bit.

What about, instead of advantage they get your Charisma mod to hit? I balanced this against only being active for 1 minute, whereas the OoA Paladin has always-on spell resistance.


HOLY CRAP! Angelic Body makes the CD and Aura just WAY TOO STRONG, since you're immune to its penalty.

But even with immunity to exhaustion, it's still only 1/rest. Maybe it's just that my group doesn't rest more than like once a session, but I thought it was fine. If I'm mistaken, then just let me know :smallsmile:


Ascension is a bit much, even for a Paladin capstone. I'd nerf it a little.

Right. I'll probably drop it it 4d8. That keeps it in line with a cantrip.


Overall... DracoKnight, you were so good for a little while. You were cranking out homebrew that was tightly balanced. But now? You're back to overpowering it. This needs to be toned down considerably.

For a while I was posting the second or third draft, I guess I should go back to that :smallsmile:

JNAProductions
2016-06-12, 07:06 PM
Charisma Mod to hit is pretty much as good as advantage. (+5.)

I'd make it an always-on aura of something else.

Feuerphoenix
2016-06-12, 07:17 PM
Wow, well I must say I like the spirit of this oath...But it is wayyyyyyyy too strong. I gain a permanent effect by a spell, by casting it once?! Flying for one hour, and not even concentration based? That is still too powerful. Especially with an extension up to 24 hours.

Also both of your Channel Divinities are way too strong. Advantage on any saving throw? Combine that with Aura of protection, and you will withstand even liches. This is plain rediciolous. And way too strong. To compare it: Magic Circle gives you (and your comrades) advantage on all spell saves, which is a level 4 Spell. Not only you get this, but plain advantage on ANY saving throw. Every short rest!

Your weapon enchantment CD...is not even funny anymore. This is far beyond any spell that plays in a similar league. 3d8 are equal to a longsword you always smite with. It is not even considered, you may even smite on top. With this spell, you add 13,5 damage straight on each hit. This means you deal more damage than a additional player. The exhaustion is negligible, first because disadvantage on ability checks will not hit you in a very hard manner, if your DM is not certainly looking for events and enemies who are reliable in these checks. Second, until it becomes critical for you, you my do it 3 times!!! Because your aura at LV 7 will negate your disadvantage!

And last du but not least, your abilities are way too strong, except the LV 15 ability, which becomes overpowered, if you consider THAT YOU BECOME IMMUNE TO EXHAUSTION!!!! It is like removing the ammocapacity of the BFG in DOOM! Making something extremely powerful even so strong, that you would throw away the game because it make no goddamn sense!

But better I start at your LV 7 ability. It gives EVERY friendly player (in 10ft) gains advantage! The only thing you need is to have your OP CD active. This is already completely overpowered on its own.

Your LV 20 Ability doubles your CD damage to 6D8!!! which is equal to a LV 5 smite. EVERY HIT BECOMES A LV 5 SMITE! But also, the enemy takes additional CHA Mod damage. Considering, that you will have 20 in STR and CHA, with means plain 10 damage+6d8 on each hit, and you will hit almost always, because you have advantage! Which means you deal around 70 Damage per round, just by playing, not considering any magic item you will find...


Last but not least:Celestial armor is a straight upgrade to shield, with an inbuilt damage dealer. Way to strong for a LV 1 spell.

PS: Your spell list reads like a throw over of the best spells you can get for a paladin. This whole thing looks like either a super villain class for a NPC against the party, or a try to reach power level 9000+....

DracoKnight
2016-06-12, 08:01 PM
I've updated the link in the OP.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-12, 08:22 PM
Okay, here's my thoughts:

Domain Spells: they're pretty nice. It's a less potent list now that you've removed haste. Wings of Zephyr is a pretty nifty spell. I would say that it's power-level is determined by which spell list it's on. If it's just on the Paladin spell list, it's fine - if it's on too many other lists, it kind of takes away the novelty.

I honestly don't have a problem with Seraph Sword. Honestly, damage output isn't what breaks 5e. However, as written, I have a HUGE problem with Holier Than Thou... As written you have advantage on everything that fiends or undead do...including SPELLS, you are the lich-killer. NERF THIS HARD.

Smiting Aura is fine - it helps your allies - until something resists radiant damage. Which admittedly, not may things do - and there are some things that are immune.

Angelic Body - eh, it's something that the elf gets at level 1 + exhaustion immunity. It's fine - honestly, it removes the exhaustion penalty from your CD, but as a paladin you can still only CD 1/rest. And you don't get this til 15th level. 15th level. That's fine, you're 5 levels away from 20th, and it will never be available to some of the more popular Paladin multiclasses.

Ascension - it's a paladin capstone. That's about all I can say. You get advantage on attacks with your Seraph Sword. Resistance to all damage for a minute is nice - immunity to radiant I would say is REALLY nice, but I can't think of anything other than the Emperyan and the angels that deal radiant damage...so...this is more fluff, unless you're playing an evil campaign. :smalltongue:

DracoKnight
2016-06-12, 08:29 PM
Okay, here's my thoughts:

Domain Spells: they're pretty nice. It's a less potent list now that you've removed haste. Wings of Zephyr is a pretty nifty spell. I would say that it's power-level is determined by which spell list it's on. If it's just on the Paladin spell list, it's fine - if it's on too many other lists, it kind of takes away the novelty.

In my world it's only on the Cleric and Paladin spell lists. :smallsmile:


I honestly don't have a problem with Seraph Sword. Honestly, damage output isn't what breaks 5e. However, as written, I have a HUGE problem with Holier Than Thou... As written you have advantage on everything that fiends or undead do...including SPELLS, you are the lich-killer. NERF THIS HARD.

Ahhh...yes, this was unintentional. I forgot about spellcasting undead. The intent was more to be against fear/charm effects. I will specify that...oops. Bad DracoKnight.


Smiting Aura is fine - it helps your allies - until something resists radiant damage. Which admittedly, not may things do - and there are some things that are immune.

That was the intent - it was initially way too powerful, and then I considered changing it to give you and your allies weapon attacks that were considered magical. But then I realized that if that were granted, then the party would never have to worry about resistances.


Angelic Body - eh, it's something that the elf gets at level 1 + exhaustion immunity. It's fine - honestly, it removes the exhaustion penalty from your CD, but as a paladin you can still only CD 1/rest. And you don't get this til 15th level. 15th level. That's fine, you're 5 levels away from 20th, and it will never be available to some of the more popular Paladin multiclasses.

That's what I was thinking.


Ascension - it's a paladin capstone. That's about all I can say. You get advantage on attacks with your Seraph Sword. Resistance to all damage for a minute is nice - immunity to radiant I would say is REALLY nice, but I can't think of anything other than the Emperyan and the angels that deal radiant damage...so...this is more fluff, unless you're playing an evil campaign. :smalltongue:

Thank you for your feedback :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-12, 09:29 PM
It looks okay to me now. It should be fine now that you've changed Holier Than Thou.

DracoKnight
2016-06-12, 11:23 PM
Updated the link in the OP. I removed the wings of zephyr spell description, changed the formatting a little, and added some artwork :smallsmile:

sajro
2016-06-13, 05:53 AM
The benefit of the Aura doesn't seem potent enough. And how does it work with other characters who might have a different damage type already? And what if they don't want to have it deal radiant rather than its original?

If you change it to a flat damage boost instead, prof., half prof, cha, half cha or similar might be better?

Feuerphoenix
2016-06-13, 07:34 AM
Ist is much better now, But the CD is still too strong. It should scale at least.

Keep in mind:
- A CD can not become disspelled
- I regains its use every short rest
- it may be applied on ANY weapon (also bows etc)
- you can use it as a BONUS ACTION, which means you may still use your attack Action and deal ~27 damage more, just by hitting as a lv 5 Char. And like I said: this is PER ROUND. An average fight Takes 5-7 rounds. This means you Deal 135-170 damage MORE than u would do usually. With this damage output, combined with Heavy armor and potent spells, you can go and kill dragons on your own...with an average AC of 22 ( Plate+Shield+spell) there is Not much that can Happen to you (nooone would wield a two Handed weapon), and you would Deal more damage than any other character. Also keep in mind, that radiant is Almost Never resisted and as such is an inbuilt resistance piercer.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 07:37 AM
The benefit of the Aura doesn't seem potent enough. And how does it work with other characters who might have a different damage type already? And what if they don't want to have it deal radiant rather than its original?

If you change it to a flat damage boost instead, prof., half prof, cha, half cha or similar might be better?

Instead of radiant then, I'll probably just have their weapon attacks count as magical

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 07:41 AM
Ist is much better now, But the CD is still too strong. It should scale at least.

Keep in mind:
- A CD can not become disspelled
- I regains its use every short rest

All of these were kept in mind when making it - and exhaustion keeps it in check at lower levels. At 15th level, their DPR with it I felt was okay enough that 1/rest was fine.


- it may be applied on ANY weapon (also bows etc)

This is a screw up on my part. Completely unintentional. It's intended for melee weapons only. I will fix that. :smalltongue:

sajro
2016-06-13, 09:55 AM
Instead of radiant then, I'll probably just have their weapon attacks count as magical

Hmmm I guess that works, unless every party member that uses weapons already have magic weapons or have their weapons count as magical. In which case this does nothing. And this happening seems much more likely than the entire party already having resistance to spell damage, immunity to charm or similar effects granted by the other Oath Auras.

Maybe having an aura isn't the thing for this subclass? Maybe having a feature more like Paladin of Vengeance would be fitting. Something that allows the Seraph Paladin something special.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 01:26 PM
Hmmm I guess that works, unless every party member that uses weapons already have magic weapons or have their weapons count as magical. In which case this does nothing. And this happening seems much more likely than the entire party already having resistance to spell damage, immunity to charm or similar effects granted by the other Oath Auras.

Maybe having an aura isn't the thing for this subclass? Maybe having a feature more like Paladin of Vengeance would be fitting. Something that allows the Seraph Paladin something special.

What would you give them instead of an aura? Out of sheer curiosity :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-13, 02:51 PM
I think that your new aura's probably the best solution :smallsmile:
It's initially like a shorter range crusader's mantle that stacks with crusader's mantle.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 02:52 PM
I think that your new aura's probably the best solution :smallsmile:
It's initially like a shorter range crusader's mantle that stacks with crusader's mantle.

I'll probably leave it as that then :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-13, 04:37 PM
Looks good to me - you should probably have JNA and the others go over it once more. :smallsmile:

JNAProductions
2016-06-13, 04:48 PM
Oath Spells might still be a little too good. Each one has a truly killer spell.

Angelic Body still gives immunity to Exhaustion? No, that's the main limiter on Seraph Sword!

Ascension seems fine.

Edit: Another issue is, at level 15, it's pretty easy to go three levels in Frenzy Barbarian. That gives you three attacks at 3d8+1d4+5 damage for two combats a day. (Maybe three-AFB at the moment.) That's 63 DPR, at very little cost.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 05:33 PM
Oath Spells might still be a little too good. Each one has a truly killer spell.

Angelic Body still gives immunity to Exhaustion? No, that's the main limiter on Seraph Sword!

Ascension seems fine.

Edit: Another issue is, at level 15, it's pretty easy to go three levels in Frenzy Barbarian. That gives you three attacks at 3d8+1d4+5 damage for two combats a day. (Maybe three-AFB at the moment.) That's 63 DPR, at very little cost.

Okay, so what about this:

Instead of immunity to exhaustion, giving them the ability to make a CON save (DC: 8 + your proficiency bonus + number of rounds Seraph Sword is active) to avoid the exhaustion, instead of immunity to exhaustion.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-13, 05:43 PM
Okay, so what about this:

Instead of immunity to exhaustion, giving them the ability to make a CON save (DC: 8 + your proficiency bonus + number of rounds Seraph Sword is active) to avoid the exhaustion, instead of immunity to exhaustion.

At full duration that's a DC 24... So let's say you to Resilient CON, you have +5 CON and +5 CHA, you not only have to roll an 8 to succeed...I guess it's better than immunity, but it's still good. You do theoretically have a chance of failure.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 06:11 PM
At full duration that's a DC 24... So let's say you to Resilient CON, you have +5 CON and +5 CHA, you not only have to roll an 8 to succeed...I guess it's better than immunity, but it's still good. You do theoretically have a chance of failure.

Is this better, do you think JNA?

JNAProductions
2016-06-13, 06:14 PM
Average fight is going to last maybe 4 rounds.

DC is 8+4+Proficiency (5 or 6) so that's 17 or 18.

You should have probably a +2 or +3 to Constitution base, plus your Charisma for +7 to +8.

You'll succeed more than half the time.

No, I don't think it's better. Or, at least, not better enough.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 06:34 PM
Average fight is going to last maybe 4 rounds.

DC is 8+4+Proficiency (5 or 6) so that's 17 or 18.

You should have probably a +2 or +3 to Constitution base, plus your Charisma for +7 to +8.

You'll succeed more than half the time.

No, I don't think it's better. Or, at least, not better enough.

How would you fix it?

JNAProductions
2016-06-13, 06:35 PM
Scrap it entirely. You don't build in a limiter for an ability, then just say "Nah, that's no biggie" later on.

Perhaps replace it with resistance to radiant and necrotic damage?

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 06:47 PM
Scrap it entirely. You don't build in a limiter for an ability, then just say "Nah, that's no biggie" later on.

Perhaps replace it with resistance to radiant and necrotic damage?

Okay. Hmmmmm...double resistances might be nice...what about... "As a bonus action on your turn you can force any number of creatures that you can see within 30 feet of you to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save they have disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you. The DC for this saving throw is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier."

JNAProductions
2016-06-13, 07:14 PM
Okay. Hmmmmm...double resistances might be nice...what about... "As a bonus action on your turn you can force any number of creatures that you can see within 30 feet of you to make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save they have disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you. The DC for this saving throw is 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier."

Make that a limited use ability and I think you're golden.

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 08:39 PM
Make that a limited use ability and I think you're golden.

Awesomeness! Thanks for all your help with this one JNA! :smallbiggrin:

DracoKnight
2016-06-13, 08:43 PM
A sincere thank you to everyone who gave their input and helped in balancing the Oath of the Seraph! Your interest means a lot! :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-15, 01:26 AM
One problem with that ability: it really steps on the toes of Oath of the Crown...that's the one thing that they do better than the other Paladins: tank. And your plan is to give the Seraph their ability....

DracoKnight
2016-06-15, 05:05 PM
One problem with that ability: it really steps on the toes of Oath of the Crown...that's the one thing that they do better than the other Paladins: tank. And your plan is to give the Seraph their ability....

Oops...right. I forgot about that. Dammit!

Requiemforlust
2016-06-16, 10:00 AM
I really like this!!

For the 15th level ability what about this:

Angel Sight:
Your connection to the celestial planes prevents you from being deceived. You gain true sight in a radius of 60 feet. If you encounter a fiend that is shapechanged, you can expend your Channel Divinity to cause it to revert to its true form.

DracoKnight
2016-06-16, 10:01 AM
I really like this!!

For the 15th level ability what about this:

Angel Sight:
Your connection to the celestial planes prevents you from being deceived. You gain true sight in a radius of 60 feet. If you encounter a fiend that is shapechanged, you can expend your Channel Divinity to cause it to revert to its true form.

This is an interesting idea - what do you think, JNA??

JNAProductions
2016-06-17, 10:43 AM
Truesight 60' is REALLY powerful. It negates every single illusion and invisibility.

Perhaps allow you one minute of Truesight, once per short rest, activatable as a bonus action, and in addition to that, your Divine Sense feature is now always active.

Edit: Oh, and keep the CD: Change Fiend Back Into Fiendish Form. That's nice.

DracoKnight
2016-06-17, 11:46 AM
Truesight 60' is REALLY powerful. It negates every single illusion and invisibility.

Perhaps allow you one minute of Truesight, once per short rest, activatable as a bonus action, and in addition to that, your Divine Sense feature is now always active.

Edit: Oh, and keep the CD: Change Fiend Back Into Fiendish Form. That's nice.

I'll go with this ^_^

DracoKnight
2016-06-17, 12:55 PM
Updated the link in the OP.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-18, 03:55 PM
DracoKnight? Can I call you DracoKnight? I hope so because that's your registered name. I'm gonna level with you. This is pure and utter crap. I've read through everything you've made at this point and it's all crap, but I'm commenting here because, well, I don't wanna commit thread necromancy.

Honestly, homebrew ruins the game, and you and every other homebrewer should just...stop. Seriously, if the options presented to you aren't good enough, just play a different game. Or something. But you don't need to pollute 5e with homebrew. Cuz honestly, that's all this is: pollution. Why do we need an Oath of the Seraph? Huh? Is the Oath of Vengeance not good enough? Why can't you and everyone else in this section just play using the official rules?

I mean no disrespect to you as a person, but I think it's rather arrogant to believe that you, some random person at home, know what 5e needs. Your name isn't Mike Mearles. Your name isn't Jeremy Crawford. You're not on the 5e design team. Stop making stuff. If you want to publish crappy homebrew, use a game with a ****ty power structure and an OGL like Pathfinder. But please stop tainting 5e. Homebrew clutters the game with too many unnecessary player options. So, please, for the love of God, just stop. I would comment somewhere else, and rant about homebrew in someone else's thread, but it seems like you're one of the most prolific people on here - so you're one of the biggest contributors to the problem.

No disrespect is meant to you. Have a nice day (but stop homebrewing!!)! :smallsmile:

I realize you're a troll...but dude - not cool!!

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-18, 11:46 PM
You're seriously being an @$$hole. Stop.

GandalfTheWhite
2016-06-18, 11:52 PM
Only we who are satisfied with what WotC has put forth should play 5e!

Guys, I found the High Prophet of WotC.

Wryte
2016-06-19, 12:08 AM
I will stop when everyone stops homebrewing. 5e DOESN'T NEED IT! There's already enough character options! Homebrew will do to 5e what splatbooks did to 3 and 3.5! Everyone who homebrews should just play a different system if they don't like 5e. Only we who are satisfied with what WotC has put forth should play 5e! You should all just stop, because you're going to ruin the game! Nothing you do is creative, and nothing you do adds any value to the game! All you do is decrease the value of 5e - it's beautiful complex simplicity! Again, I ask, why do you need an Oath of the Seraph when we already have the Oath of Vengeance?! Thematically they're both avenging angels! Why do we need two?! Homebrew merely pollutes the game with options that are thematically the same as officially published material, but are mechanically better in every way! DracoKnight, JNAProductions, and Submortimer are the worst offenders of 5e! They're going to ruin the game for everyone else! FOR EVERYONE!

Who exactly is holding a gun to your head forcing you to play with homebrew content? It's not like 5ed is an MMO and we're suggesting game changes that'll affect everyone who plays the game anywhere in the world. If you don't want to play with homebrew content, then don't play with homebrew content. It's that simple, and even if I can get behind the notion that 90% of homebrew content is trash (because 90% of everything is trash: see Sturgeon's Revelation), you're being an incredible ass about it.

JNAProductions
2016-06-19, 09:47 AM
Hey, Dracoknight? Just wanted to say thanks for being so open to critique, and either putting out good homebrew, or putting out homebrew that becomes good once you make a couple changes.

So keep on rocking.

DracoKnight
2016-06-20, 01:52 PM
Hey, Dracoknight? Just wanted to say thanks for being so open to critique, and either putting out good homebrew, or putting out homebrew that becomes good once you make a couple changes.

So keep on rocking.

Thanks, JNA :smallsmile:

And thanks for all of your help! Without your input, most of my stuff would just be trash :smallsmile:

Feuerphoenix
2016-06-21, 05:25 AM
you should add a duration for true sight :)

DracoKnight
2016-06-21, 09:57 AM
you should add a duration for true sight :)

Thank you Feuerphoenix! It was supposed to be 1 minute, and I thought I'd had that written in there :smalltongue:

I also tweaked the wording of the 7th level aura a little bit.

DracoKnight
2017-03-22, 10:24 AM
The final version of the Oath of the Seraph is here (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/03/oath-of-seraph.html#more)! :smallsmile:

GandalfTheWhite
2017-03-22, 10:44 AM
The final version of the Oath of the Seraph is here (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/03/oath-of-seraph.html#more)! :smallsmile:

OH! Sweet! I wasn't expecting this to ever go up there! It's cool to see it up :smallbiggrin:
My one nitpick...where's wings of Zephyr?

Sariel Vailo
2017-03-22, 05:42 PM
Is this different from the one on mfov

DracoKnight
2017-03-22, 06:24 PM
Is this different from the one on mfov

The one in the Original Post is different, yes. The one I just linked to a couple posts up is the final draft.

Sariel Vailo
2017-03-23, 01:12 AM
The one in the Original Post is different, yes. The one I just linked to a couple posts up is the final draft.

thank you i wanted to see this it looks fine. i want to use this.

DracoKnight
2017-03-23, 01:46 AM
thank you i wanted to see this it looks fine. i want to use this.

If you get to use it, let me know how it goes! I did my playtests, of course, but I might've missed something :smallsmile:

Sariel Vailo
2017-03-23, 02:26 AM
If you get to use it, let me know how it goes! I did my playtests, of course, but I might've missed something :smallsmile:

no prob drac if im intrested in something i test it extensively just ask the nails

DracoKnight
2017-03-24, 10:19 PM
no prob drac if im intrested in something i test it extensively just ask the nails

Thanks! :smallbiggrin:

Sariel Vailo
2017-03-25, 10:03 PM
so next homebrew do one for fmlfest.it would destroy his mind.all glory to wotc smote the non wotc. it might make him quit or worse just be aloof about it. on to my next thing go go pretty drow princess.

DracoKnight
2017-04-18, 05:18 AM
so next homebrew do one for fmlfest.it would destroy his mind.all glory to wotc smote the non wotc. it might make him quit or worse just be aloof about it. on to my next thing go go pretty drow princess.

Perhaps an "Oath of the Zealot" for the Paladin.

Sariel Vailo
2017-04-18, 01:31 PM
Perhaps an "Oath of the Zealot" for the Paladin.

Lol he is a zealot