Help with Paladin Srategies

[Malfurion]

Hey guys. Always love the information here. Had a bladesingwr that you helped me with a while back and he was great. Unfortunately a TPK caused the campaign to end sooner than I expected.

Either case we're starting a new campaign that's being converted from pathfinder. I'm starting at level 3 as a Dragonborn Oath of Vengeance Paladin that I'm in love with because of a killer backstory I wrote. Never played a paladin before but I've read many of the guides on this site.

My main questions are related to useful spells that you have used in actual play. What combos worked which ones didn't etc. I took GWF with the plan on taking GWM as I believe it'll work out well since my CD gives me advantage. My party composition is a tempest melee cleric that will going into Storm sorcerer a Eldritch Knight (not sure exactly what he'll be doing) a conjurer wizard and possibly a rogue bard Multiclass.

Some of the home brew rules that the DM is importing is flanking from Pathfinder. Will this limit the usefulness of my CD?

What combos have you found very effective with the Paladins spell list? Which ones did you think we're great but didn't turn out so well?

Is smiting usually the best option for using your spell slots?

Anything that I should know that you didn't know until you were Higher levels in the Class?

Here are my starting stats and spell list. I'm open for any suggestions. Thanks.

Ravaroth Flamebrow
Gold Dragonborn
Level OoV Paladin

Strength 16
Dex 10
Con. 14
Int. 8
Wis. 10
Chr. 16

AC. 16 (chain mail)
GWF
Greatsword

Level 1 spells
Bane
Hunters mark
Bless
Command
Wrathful smite
Thunderous smite

[Arkhios]

smite spells are generally quite rubbish, though some of them have neat riders.
If it's only the extra damage your after from them, I'd recommend using divine smite instead.

Also, there's no need to home brew the flanking rules. DMG has optional rules for how it works in 5th edition (pg. 251).

Remember that you only get CD only once between short rests. It's likely that you don't take short rests after each battle, because a short rest has a 1 hour length, so you actually benefit from flanking when you have already used your CD. (or before you have used it). It might be wise to reserve it for a fight when you are unable to benefit from flanking.

I would suggest caution in using the few spell slots you have, they run out really fast.
I made that mistake with our first session, playing a paladin myself as well.

[Ninja_Prawn]

My party composition is a tempest melee cleric that will going into Storm sorcerer a Eldritch Knight (not sure exactly what he'll be doing) a conjurer wizard and possibly a rogue bard Multiclass.

I've never played a paladin (well, except for a PbP that didn't get past the opening scene), but this caught my eye. Vengeance paladin, tempest cleric/storm sorcerer and eldritch knight... that's going to make for a meaty triad in melee combat. Even more so if the conjurer is going to play a minion-mancy style. You probably want to focus on maximising your damage output; the three of you will be tough enough not to need a dedicated tank.

Concentration-wise, I'm thinking your default approach will be for the cleric to maintain Bless while you focus on Hunter's Mark. Beyond that, you use your slots for smiting and the EK uses theirs for Shield and Burning Hands, while the cleric/sorcerer does the showy stuff. Sounds quite potent, especially once your auras start to kick in and the conjurer gets access to bigger spells (they're probably best-off controlling the battlefield to keep enemies in melee with the three front-liners).

[gfishfunk]

Smite spells are not rubbish, but they are situational. If you have one big-bad in a fight, use your spell slots to Divine Smite (hereafter, SMITE) for added burst damage. If you have a lot of smaller minion, the smite spells work well for distributing damage more evenly while efficiently reserving SMITEs. If you are up against five dudes, a smite spell with concentration is not too shabby. If you are up against 3, SMITE is probably better on the biggest and baddest of them. the down side is, of course, Con saves for the concentration.

EDIT: I ignored Hunters Mark because it is not on the class list of spells for Paladins. Not sure why you have it listed as a spell you are taking. Its superior to all smite spells in terms of damage.

Also, this depends on the GM style: if your GM likes having 'boss fights', reserving spell slots for SMITEs against the big boss is a pretty good idea - its great burst damage. If your GM like encounters with more numerous enemies, smite spells are a bit better. All the white-box calculations show SMITE as much better than smite spells (I think), but that does not take into account hp levels: if it takes 13 damage to kill a minion, there are 5 minions....smite spells work much better. You can hit for your 2d6+3 damage, possibly killing them in one hit, but burning spell slots for a SMITE is going to be a waste, whereas using a smite spell and adding, say, 1d4 to each attack is probably superior.

[hymer]

If you have a lot of smaller minion, the smite spells work well for distributing damage more evenly while efficiently reserving SMITEs.

I don't follow that. Why would the smite spells do better here?


I ignored Hunters Mark because it is not on the class list of spells for Paladins. Not sure why you have it listed as a spell you are taking.

It's on the Oath of Vengenace list, though, IIRC.

[Arkhios]

Purely for damage the Smite Spells are rubbish if compared to Divine Smite, because smite spells concentration is interrupted once you hit and deliver the effect of the spell.
They have their situational uses, that I can agree with though. Thunderous Smite for example is great thanks to the target being knocked prone and flung 10 feet away from you.

Vengeance Paladin receives Hunter's Mark from his oath, which is why he has it listed.

[Biggstick]

Smite spells are not rubbish, but they are situational. If you have one big-bad in a fight, use your spell slots to Divine Smite (hereafter, SMITE) for added burst damage. If you have a lot of smaller minion, the smite spells work well for distributing damage more evenly while efficiently reserving SMITEs. If you are up against five dudes, a smite spell with concentration is not too shabby. If you are up against 3, SMITE is probably better on the biggest and baddest of them. the down side is, of course, Con saves for the concentration.

EDIT: I ignored Hunters Mark because it is not on the class list of spells for Paladins. Not sure why you have it listed as a spell you are taking. Its superior to all smite spells in terms of damage.

Also, this depends on the GM style: if your GM likes having 'boss fights', reserving spell slots for SMITEs against the big boss is a pretty good idea - its great burst damage. If your GM like encounters with more numerous enemies, smite spells are a bit better. All the white-box calculations show SMITE as much better than smite spells (I think), but that does not take into account hp levels: if it takes 13 damage to kill a minion, there are 5 minions....smite spells work much better. You can hit for your 2d6+3 damage, possibly killing them in one hit, but burning spell slots for a SMITE is going to be a waste, whereas using a smite spell and adding, say, 1d4 to each attack is probably superior.

TBH, the smaller smite spells are going to be more useful on the BBEG than on the minions, as imposing an effect like disadvantage or fear is going to be useful for the entire party in reducing incoming damage.

Hunter's Mark is on the Vengeance spell list.

The smaller smite spells don't add damage per attack, only damage for the one attack and then the condition. You must be thinking of Divine Favor.

[gfishfunk]

I don't follow that. Why would the smite spells do better here?

It's on the Oath of Vengenace list, though, IIRC.

Ah, gotchya on the Oath of Vengence list.

smite spells do better when there is a chance of overkill. You might burn a single spell slot to divine smite and absolutely demolish one enemy, but there are 4 more, whereas a smite spell is a more economic use of the spell slot depending on the duration of combat. The longer combat goes, the more useful that smite spell becomes. With a single enemy, you might as well pour as much damage at once on the target in order to kill it as fast as possible; with the minion style enemies, that is often overkill.

Hunter's Mark is a good balance between the two: it lasts longer but requires a bonus action to move between targets. It will add to attacks of opportunity only against your one target. Smite spells add to all attacks during the duration, even the attacks of opportunity. Divine Smites are one-time use, and tend to be better in a short fight to kill something very very quickly, as both smite spells and Hunter's Mark cost an action (bonus action? Away from book, atm) to activate ahead of time, while a divine smite can occur at will on a hit attack and does more burst damage.

People who love divine smites tend to love it in a white-box setting, whereas smite spells are more of an acquired taste, although in truth the optimal use of both depends on circumstance.

[gfishfunk]

TBH, the smaller smite spells are going to be more useful on the BBEG than on the minions, as imposing an effect like disadvantage or fear is going to be useful for the entire party in reducing incoming damage.

Hunter's Mark is on the Vengeance spell list.

The smaller smite spells don't add damage per attack, only damage for the one attack and then the condition. You must be thinking of Divine Favor.

I must be. The smite spells are not in the SDL and I am going off of memory playing a paladin through level.....5?

[Mjolnirbear]

Hi

Smite Spells stink, if you're looking for damage. It's always far better to burn a spell slot for a Divine Smite. The only reason to use a Smite spell is for the associated rider: for instance, Wrathful Smite causes Fear, and Banishing Smite banishes an opponent. That said, my paladin has never actually cast these either, because killing a creature out right is often better than controlling it.

One additional use of Smite Spells is to burn a Smite Spell, attack, and then burn a spell slot to additionally use Divine Smite on the same attack. I almost never smite unless it's a crit, so I don't try this...but with a single attack you can almost double up your damage by doing this.

I'll tell you honestly that my paladin rarely casts spells. His spell slots are few, and the worst pain ever is rolling a crit on the BBEG and not being able to crit-smite because you're out of spell slots. However, there are some spells totally worth casting:

Bless, if you have no cleric. Bless is the best use of concentration for any divine caster until mid-levels and even then is a very good spell. But if you have a cleric, make him use it. He has far more spell slots than you, and he is less likely to be a front-line caster and thus less likely to lose it to a failed Concentration roll.

Command is a very useful spell to impose opportunity attacks (Flee) or stop someone from fleeing (Stop). It has the advantage of being extremely flexible if you can think of the right word.

Hunter's Mark is amazing, but not better than bless. Only use it if that cleric is doing his job properly and casting bless.

Divine Shield is very good when you need that AC bump.

Find Steed is either awesome, or mediocre, depending on several things: do you have the Mounted Combat feat? Do you have Barding? Will your DM let you upcast it for a more powerful mount? And most importantly, does your DM rule your mount as Intelligent (and thus able to attack) or controlled (and thus can't help you attack?). Even if the answer is bad to all these questions, it's still a free, permanent pack-mule and speed-booster, just not as awesome as it could be otherwise.

Do not bother with healing spells unless you are the only healer. In the case of an emergency, you can always lay on hands. However, Revivify is totally worth it, because "I'm sorry I can't rez you because I didn't think the cleric would die" is a terrible thing to tell someone when their character is dead.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Bless, if you have no cleric. Bless is the best use of concentration for any divine caster until mid-levels and even then is a very good spell. But if you have a cleric, make him use it. He has far more spell slots than you, and he is less likely to be a front-line caster and thus less likely to lose it to a failed Concentration roll.

The OP said they have a cleric - a tempest cleric who is planning to multiclass into stormborn sorcerer. That alone screams "melee gish", and the fact that they're alongside a paladin and an EK makes it a foregone conclusion that the cleric will be casting Bless very frequently.

[RickAllison]

The OP said they have a cleric - a tempest cleric who is planning to multiclass into stormborn sorcerer. That alone screams "melee gish", and the fact that they're alongside a paladin and an EK makes it a foregone conclusion that the cleric will be casting Bless very frequently.

Although a cleric could be using his concentration on other spells while the paladin's concentration is probably best saved for Bless.

[MightyDog16]

I'm currently playing a lvl 10 oath of the crown paladin. I typically keep up Shield of Faith or Aura of Vitality depending on the situation. I tend to save spell slots for smiting in boss fights and spot healing with cure wounds if my lay on hands is empty. Otherwise, I will typically only smite on crits. I hold my own damge-wise and I'm tough to take down with 23ac in plate+shield+shield of faith+defense fighting style, 21ac with a 2 hander ain't bad either. Spirit Guardians is going to be amazing for you in AoE situations too.

[Biggstick]

Although a cleric could be using his concentration on other spells while the paladin's concentration is probably best saved for Bless.

I always tend to agree with this. For some reason I feel like people tend to think that the Cleric has got nothing else to really be concentrating on (Hold Person, Spirit Guardians, Bestow Curse, Protection from Evil and Good, Protection from Energy, Banishment etc etc).

I already know the rebuttal is going to include a ton of great concentration spells that Paladins have (some of the Smites, Divine Favor, Hunter's Mark, Magic Weapon, Aura of Vitality, Hold Person, Spirit Guardians). Some of the listed spells are Oath-specific, but they're there. If you're using these spells, there are even less for your precious smites! Lathander forbid you don't have that level 1 slot from earlier that you used on Bless so that the Cleric could concentrate on Banishment of the BBEG's monster pet.

The main point is, your Bless is just as effective as the Cleric's. Free'ing up a primary caster's concentration in a fight allows him/her to do some pretty interesting things for the party.

[Malfurion]

Thanks guys for all the input. It's unfortunate that smite spells are usually not worth the expense of divine smites. Some of the riders are pretty cool such as knocking prone, causing fear and eventually banishing a target. Mighty dog I didn't take oath of the crown so unfortunately I won't be able to get spirit guardians. I did think about it but the tenets and some of the abilities didn't mesh well with my characters backstory. How have you found playing them? I would be very interested to see how they are in actual play.

[Regulas]

I generally find that the main reason to use divine smite is only because you are already concentrating on another spell (like hunter's mark). Or maybe very specific situations where the BBEG is just about dead and I'm not sure if my hit will kill him.

Otherwise I don't see why you would divine smite over thunderous smite or ensnaring strike/blinding smite etc. The advantage/disadvantage for both yourself and your team far far outstripes the very small difference in damage.

[tieren]

I generally find that the main reason to use divine smite is only because you are already concentrating on another spell (like hunter's mark). Or maybe very specific situations where the BBEG is just about dead and I'm not sure if my hit will kill him.

Otherwise I don't see why you would divine smite over thunderous smite or ensnaring strike/blinding smite etc. The advantage/disadvantage for both yourself and your team far far outstripes the very small difference in damage.

For one is the issue of concentration, you can concentrate on bless and still burn slots for Divine Smite, the smite spells are concentration themselves so you can't combo them the same way. Also divine smite you can choose to use after a hit so it is never wasted, the smite spells you cast and then concentrate on until you hit. If you miss your concentration could be interrupted and the spell is wasted (or someone else could finish the fight).

[RickAllison]

For one is the issue of concentration, you can concentrate on bless and still burn slots for Divine Smite, the smite spells are concentration themselves so you can't combo them the same way. Also divine smite you can choose to use after a hit so it is never wasted, the smite spells you cast and then concentrate on until you hit. If you miss your concentration could be interrupted and the spell is wasted (or someone else could finish the fight).

This happened in a level 20 one-shot! Our paladin had a smite spell loaded and the battle ended before he could use it, so he rushed forward right into a fight with a suped-up Iron Golem. He blinded the golem successfully, which luckily kept him alive from the beat down it inflicted anyway.

[Corran]

...
I took GWF with the plan on taking GWM as I believe it'll work out well since my CD gives me advantage.
...

What combos have you found very effective with the Paladins spell list? Which ones did you think we're great but didn't turn out so well?

...

Anything that I should know that you didn't know until you were Higher levels in the Class?

...

Here are my starting stats and spell list. I'm open for any suggestions. Thanks.

Ravaroth Flamebrow
Gold Dragonborn
Level OoV Paladin

Strength 16
Dex 10
Con. 14
Int. 8
Wis. 10
Chr. 16

AC. 16 (chain mail)
GWF
Greatsword

I dont like the GWM feat on paladins very much. I generally think that polearms and one handers tend to work better for this class. However, the oath of vengeance has some very offensive features that could perhaps justify using a greatsword along with the GWM feat. That and the fact that you are going to use some alternative flanking rules, thus perhaps letting you attack with advantage a lot more often.

Anyway, on to specifics. If you are going GWM, then haste will be your friend. You get it at level 9 as one of your oath spells. So at level 9, you will have access to a third attack, which is sooner than almost anyone else. Generally self-casting haste is a bad idea when you are a frontliner, as haste has some nasty concequences when you lose concentration of it. Paladins however, have aura of protection to help in that respect. But is it enough? The answer is no. You should use haste with your concentration if you are to GWM things to death, and you should improve your con saves if you are to be using haste on yourself. Thus, before 9th level, you must have taken resilient con as a feat. Do it at level 8, since you will want GWM sooner I suppose, and since till then you will more likely be using bless, which helps with your saves too.

That ofc has an impact on your stats. Leaving your con score at 15 is not helpful, and there are no other half feats that will improve your con that you will be taking. So your stats need some tweeking. There are two ways to go about this. Either lower your con score to 13 (it will round up once you take resilient), and put the 2 extra points on wisdom for a score of 12, or you could dump your dex to 8, and use the two extra points to raise your con score to 15, so that it will round up to 16 once you take the resilient feat.

Regarding the figthing style, go with defense if your DM does not allow rerolls on the smite and IDS dice.

Concentration is a factor that most players tend to ignore and it always comes back to bite them in the butt, be careful not to let that happen to you.

[MightyDog16]

How have you found playing them? I would be very interested to see how they are in actual play.

To be honest, the oath features are underwhelming, especially early on. Turn the Tide never seems good enough to use up an action. Things like Command end up getting resisted when you really need it. But the way my character is going I think he'll be an Oath breaker in a couple more levels. I would not play as the Crown again if I were to play a paladin, I just never seem to use the features as much as I've tried to get value out of them.

[Regulas]

If you don't have time to use it after missing the first attack... then why were you casting the spell to begin with and how would divine smite have been worth using anyway?
If an enemy is so weak it's going to die in a round or two anyway I would just save using specials to begin with, in contrast if the enemy is an actual threat that isn't going to instantly go poof, the the riders are so much more powerful then the smite damage. And don't get me wrong there are plenty of cases where divine smite is great but just like any kind of "blast spell" I generally see it as inferior to combat utility options, especially since 5e really makes utility effects exorbitantly powerful (since it's just flat out adv/dis instead of "tiny penalty").

[Malfurion]

Mighty dog. Sorry to hear that it didn't work out well. I'll be sure to consider that if I play a paladin again.

Corran. Good points. I thought about my con. My only concern would be the consequences of dumping dex. Since a lot of saves are Dex and that would hinder me succeeding them. On the other hand, Resilient Con would allow haste to be a much better option, so it might be better to take. Any downsides you can see dumping dex that would outweigh the pluses of resilient con?

Thanks again everyone for the help. This has been great and it's the reason I keep coming here everyday. So much good advice lol.

[Saeviomage]

If the target fails it's save against wrathful smite, then:
1. It needs to spend its action to break out
2. The roll to break out is a wisdom check, not a save, and therefore most foes have only a small bonus to the roll
3. Since the roll to break out is a check, it has disadvantage due to the fear

It's one of the nastier save or suck spells in the game thanks to that (most automatically allow a save each round), and its only downside is that you need to both hit with a melee attack and have the target fail a save.

[Arkhios]

Chiming back to echo that Bless is astoundingly good when cast as a paladin. Even more so after 6th level.
First of all, +1d4 to ALL Attack rolls of the targets (including you). Secondly, +1d4 to ALL saving throws (including your Constitution saving throws = Concentration checks)
At minimum 3 targets, which can (and should) include yourself, more depending on the slot level used.
After 6th level, once you get Aura of Protection with the help of Bless your concentration is nigh-impenetrable. Especially if you have either Resilient (Con) and/or War Caster.


If the target fails it's save against wrathful smite, then:
1. It needs to spend its action to break out
2. The roll to break out is a wisdom check, not a save, and therefore most foes have only a small bonus to the roll
3. Since the roll to break out is a check, it has disadvantage due to the fear

It's one of the nastier save or suck spells in the game thanks to that (most automatically allow a save each round), and its only downside is that you need to both hit with a melee attack and have the target fail a save.

Good catch, hadn't noticed that myself. Might prepare it once in a while, now.

[djreynolds]

There is IMO, 2 schools of thought. Early level

For a devotion paladin I recommend GWF, GWM, spam bless & shield of faith, and used sacred weapon and you can get a real good DPR. This guy smites only when necessary. He is using GWM for the damage out put

For a vengeance paladin, I like S&B, get charisma up the but strength is more important, use hunter's mark, get resilient con, and use vow enmity for advantage. This guy uses spell slots to smite a lot.

Remember channel divinity recharges on a short rest.

You can mix and match, but sacred weapons could be +5 with max charisma for 1 minute, that cancels out the -5 for GWM. So you are look for shield of faith and bless.

The vengeance guy with advantage has a better chance of critting, so what he is fighting with dagger and shield doesn't matter. But when he hits he crits with smite damage and hunter's mark.

Past level 11

Now PAM is awesome, very good with improved divine smite. And this is a good selection of a feat when you have more HP and your strength and charisma are 18's. I say level 12 is good time for any paladin to select PAM.