Simple Questions

[ImpFireball]

So uh... if you're a fighter with both shield bash and two weapon fighting as a feat, does that mean that you can both bash and use a weapon in just a single round? Better yet, how does 'flurry of blows' relate with all this? Is that a monk only ability? Does that pretty much mean that you gotta be lawful and take on a level of monk?

I'll have more questions on the way.

[Jannex]

If Shield Bash allows you to make a normal attack with your shield (I don't have the text of the feat in front of me at the moment, so I can't check), then yes, with TWF you could use both a weapon and your shield to attack as part of a full attack action.

Flurry of Blows is the signature ability of the Monk; there might be some Prestige Classes that get it, but I don't know of any other base class with a Flurry progression. However, I'm pretty sure that Flurry of Blows can only be used with special "Monk weapons," none of which is a shield.

[Lemur]

Technically, you can shield bash and fight with a weapon without Improved Shield Bash and Two Weapon Fighting. Improved Shield Bash just lets you keep your AC bonus from the shield when bashing, and two weapon fighting reduces the horrible penalties you'd be taking otherwise. But it could still be done. Also remember that a small shield is considered a light weapon, and a heavy shield is considered a one-handed weapon, when applying penalties for two weapon fighting.

And like Jannex said, you can't use a Monk's flurry ability with a shield. Also like Jannex said, flurry-like abilities (but not the same kind of flurry when you get down to it) can be obtained with certain prestige classes. Depending on the nature of the ability, you could get an extra attack in, but whether or not you could use a shield with it would depend on the specific text for the prestige class' flurry ability.

[brian c]

for a quick and dirty alternative to the monk's flurry, try Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. You get to take an extra attack, has to be unarmed, and all of your attacks are at -2. It's the same as the starting monk flurry, except it never gets better, but every attack except that one can be with any kind of weapon.

[Matthew]

Okay, here's how it works. If you have a Long Sword and a Heavy Shield (or any other combination thereof) you can indeed make an attack with each and without Two Weapon Fighting, but the penalties are horrendous. Here's the breakdown of options:

Human Fighter 1
Feats: None
Attack: Long Sword +1 or Heavy Shield +1,
Full Attack: Long Sword -5, Heavy Shield -9 [Lose Shield AC Bonus],

Human Fighter 1
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting
Attack: Long Sword +1 or Heavy Shield +1,
Full Attack: Long Sword -3, Heavy Shield -3 [Lose Shield AC Bonus],

Human Fighter 1
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting,
Attack: Long Sword +1 or Heavy Shield +1,
Full Attack: Long Sword -1, Heavy Shield -1 [Lose Shield AC Bonus],

Human Fighter 1
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash
Attack: Long Sword +1 or Heavy Shield +1,
Full Attack: Long Sword -1, Heavy Shield -1 [Keep Shield AC Bonus],

What you could also do is make an Unarmed Strike instead of any of those Attacks, which would count as a Light Weapon, but unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike you provoke an attack of Opportunity


What you can do as a Fighter/Monk is take the Eberron Whirling Steel Strike Feat that makes a Long Sword Flurriable:

Human Fighter 2/Monk 1 AB 3(4)
Feats: Two Weapon Fighting, Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Long Sword), Whirling Steel Strike,
Attack: Long Sword +4 or Heavy Shield +3 or Unarmed Strike +3,
Full Attack: Long Sword 0, Unarmed Strike -1, Heavy Shield -1 [Keep Shield AC Bonus],

In this case you can choose many combinations of the above;

Unarmed Strike -1, Unarmed Strike -1, Unarmed Strike -1,
Unarmed Strike -1, Unarmed Strike -1, Heavy Shield -1,
Unarmed Strike -1, Long Sword 0, Heavy Shield -1,
Unarmed Strike -1, Long Sword 0, Unarmed Strike -1,
Long Sword 0, Long Sword 0, Heavy Shield -1,
Long Sword 0, Unarmed Strike -1, Heavy Shield -1,
Long Sword 0, Unarmed Strike -1, Unamred strike -1,
Long Sword 0, Long Sword 0, Unarmed Strike -1,

None of which is likely to be worth it, but it sounds cool.

[Draz74]

for a quick and dirty alternative to the monk's flurry, try Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. You get to take an extra attack, has to be unarmed, and all of your attacks are at -2. It's the same as the starting monk flurry, except it never gets better, but every attack except that one can be with any kind of weapon.

So ... other than the Dex prereq, why does any warrior take Snap Kick instead of TWF? Doesn't TWF let you make an unarmed attack in addition to anything you're already doing, anyway?

... unless you're adding Snap Kick to someone who already has TWF.

... or unless your DM says that your extra unarmed strike requires a free hand, and you can't just "let go of your greatsword with one hand" long enough to get the extra attack.

I dunno. I see lots of nitpicky little ways that Snap Kick could be useful, like these, but I don't understand why people say it's a great feat, when they never used the "unarmed strike as a secondary weapon" option that has always been available.

[ImpFireball]

That last combination is intriguing. Another level of fighter to go with it might be enough to add power attack, improved overrun, and then a level afterwards would add improved bullrush, and then another level would finally round out my fighter with weapon specs and quickdraw.

Essentially I'm going for a 5th level fighter/1st level monk. Sort of a super hoplite spartan-like soldier with a spiked shield. Quick draw would allow me to alternate between lance and longsword. :P
I've also got a tower shield, just to make things interesting. :D
So yah, I'd end up with like 22-23 AC including the heaviest armor and not including all the magic bull**** I might end up with by then. Sound good at all?

"This is spartaaaa!!!!" *bullrush* Persian ambassadar dude get's pushed off cliff. :P

EDIT: BTW, what's TWF mean?
And is there a link to the whirling steel feat description?

[Callix]

Imp: TWF is Two Weapon Fighting. And a monk can't flurry in armor (I think). So there goes that idea.

[Diggorian]

Confirmed: Armor = no Flurry.

FYI: Ya cant shield bash with a tower shield, and it's so heavy it gives ya -2 to attack to boot. :smallannoyed:

I'd recommend a heavy shield; was good enough for the spartans.

[Tor the Fallen]

A one level dip in monk, imo, wouldn't be worth it, unless you could get away going unarmored and have enough stat buy to deal with the MAD.

I would get a shortsword instead of a longsword. That way, you don't have to burn a feat on oversized twf.

You could also, technically, flurry if you shield bash/swing/headbutt or some other unarmed attack. Combine that with snapkick, to get another unarmed attack in.

You now have 4 attacks. Cool. I would go with 1 level barb for pounce, and take the fighter variant where you get sneak attack instead of feats. Human barb1(pounce instead of fast movement)/monk 1/fighter (reg) 2/fighter (var) 2

You get six feats, 5 BAB, pounce, a d10 HD on average, some sneak attack, and as many as 4 attacks (TWF, flurry, snap kick).

Improved initiative would be a good choice, since you could go first and get your sneak attack in. Improved overrun would be good so you could get behind your opponent and keep those sneak attacks. You're rather feat rich at this point. Unfortunately, power attack won't add damage to light weapons. However, you only have one light weapon (shortsword) and 3 weapons you get the benefits of power attack from.

Feats for now:
twf
snap kick
power attack
improved bullrush
leap attack
imp initiative or imp bullrush or flying kick which adds 1d12 when you attack with an unarmed strike (in which case, ditch the armor, and pick up weapon focus: unarmed strike).

Feats for later:
more twf feats, and SHOCK TROOPER.

A full attack on a charge would look like this (damage wise) at, say, level 9:

Shield: 1d4+ str +18 power attack +5d6 sneak
Short sword: 1d6 + 1/2 str +5d6
Snap kick: 1d6 + str +18 power attack +5d6 sneak
Headbutt: 1d6 + str +18 power attack +5d6 sneak

Note that leap attack doubles your power attack damage.

Of course, the trick is landing all these hits. Weapon focus: unarmed strike and ditching the shield/weapon would be a better idea, as damage goes up (+18+str, and bigger dice).

Course, the character would be nowhere as cool. Ask your DM if mechanically you could play like a monk, but just pretend to wield that stuff :smallwink: .

[ImpFireball]

Confirmed: Armor = no Flurry.

FYI: Ya cant shield bash with a tower shield, and it's so heavy it gives ya -2 to attack to boot. :smallannoyed:

I'd recommend a heavy shield; was good enough for the spartans.

Correction: Monk's can't flurry if they have a shield. And in any case, I didn't hear anything in the core about tower shields crapping up a hoplite strategy. Besides, I'd imagine a big ass tower shield would work even better for the spartans. >_<

Not to mention a tower shield allows me to fight in the shade! Dammit! Cover? Watch the movie dudes. Watch it. :P

[Matthew]

It generally sucks for Fighters to use Short Sword and Heavy Shield because of the lame way Off Hand is designated and lack of Power Attack. Long Sword will almost always be a better choice in this Fighter/Monk combo (especially as Whirling Steel Strike only works with Long Swords, if I recall correctly), but it'll still suck.

Yeah, don't use a Tower Shield, it's not worth it and you cannot Shield Bash (also they are hateful).

You want Leap Attack really and Improved Bull Rush and then Shock Trooper [Edit] and finally Two Weapon Pounce. Don't bother with Monk; Flurry only works on a Full Attack.

[Diggorian]

Sorry dude:

Tower shields (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower)

Monk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm), under Weapons and Armor section:
When wearing armor, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a monk loses her AC bonus, as well as her fast movement and flurry of blows abilities.

Matt's right too.

If you're going TWF might as well get a buckler, same AC as a light shield and you can hold a shortsword offhand with longsword mainhand. Can leave Two weapon defense open as well.

[ImpFireball]

Can I get descriptions on those feats? Sorry guys. I'm a noob, so you know... :P

So right now, I'm going for a spiked heavy steel shield and a short sword for the offhand benefits, along with medium armor (because that's all I can afford at level 1 before I get into a campaign that allows for pre-made characters). My first level is that of fighter, and I've found that I'll have to get shield bash, power attack, and overrun as my first feats. I'll then get TWF and essentially go from there with a 3rd level in fighter with wep focus and quickdraw. I'll then move onto barb for all that other crazy crap that'll supposedly make me viscious. Only problem is I don't know exactly how bullrush might fit into all of this, until a total of maybe 6th or 5th level. =/

[Matthew]

Huh, that sucks. I was reading the Flurry Section and Unarmoured. Oh well. Anyway, two Long Swords would be just as good/lame.

[Diggorian]

Imp, just head here www.d20srd.org/ (http://www.d20srd.org/) and you can read things for yourself.

[Tor the Fallen]

Barb with pounce/monk1 or 2/ regular fighter 2/ sneak attack fighter x might be your best bet.

[ImpFireball]

I've been heading to D20 the entire time. :P

I just can't find the descriptions for those other feats you mentioned like leap, and pounce and all that bogus.

Whirling steel isn't in the core either, so that doesn't help much. >_>

[Jasdoif]

So ... other than the Dex prereq, why does any warrior take Snap Kick instead of TWF? Doesn't TWF let you make an unarmed attack in addition to anything you're already doing, anyway?Snap Kick can be used any time you make an attack, including a single attack as a standard action or a martial strike maneuver. TWF requires you to make a full attack.


EDIT: BTW, what's TWF mean?It's short for "Two Weapon Fighting". If you have other acronym questions, you might check the first post in the "Common Acronyms, Abbreviations, and Terms" thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512).


I just can't find the descriptions for those other feats you mentioned like leap, and pounce and all that bogus.You're in luck with those two. Pounce is identical to the monster ability of the same name (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce), and Leap Attack is described in an excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=3).

[Matthew]

Try this:

Human Fighter 1: Power Attack
Human Fighter 2:
Human Fighter 3: Improved Bull Rush,
Human Fighter 4:
Human Fighter 5:
Human Fighter 6: Leap Attack, Shock Trooper,

With a One Handed Weapon you get:

Power Attack: -6 AB, +6 DB
Leap Attack: +6 DB
Shock Trooper: +6 AB, -6 AC

Total: +0 AB, +12 DB, -6 AC

With a Two Handed Weapon you get:

Power Attack: -6 AB, +12 DB
Leap Attack: +6 DB
Shock Trooper: +6 AB, -6 AC

Total: +0 AB, +18 DB, -6 AC

[Tor the Fallen]

Pounce barb (lion totem): Essentially, at level one, replace fast movement with pounce. You can find the description of pounce on the SRD in some monster entries as well as the special attacks section. Basically, it lets you make a full attack on a charge (combined with multiple power attacks and leap attack, you're doing damage into the stratosphere!).

Sneak attack fighter: replace the bonus feats with the sneak attack progression of a rogue.

Shock trooper: reqs power attack, imp bullrush. Subtract a minimum of 5 from your AC and add that much to your attack when using a charge that ends in a power attack of -5. Basically, this let's you swap damage for AC instead of damage for to hit. Essential if you want to do damage.

www.crystalkeep.com has tons of pfds of feats, new base classes, spells, and magic items. I recommend you check it out.

[ImpFireball]

So at first level reg fighter, what feats should I start with. The weapons I've begun with are chain mail (lethal unarmed damage with gauntlets), and a spiked heavy steel shield. I've also got a visorless helm (that still covers the face as a custom item, rather then say, a 'cap'), and all the other garbage.

So for the sneak attack fighter, you get the same amount of feats don't you? It's merely a different path, so the second level is added only for the extra feat? Reason I'm asking is so that I can better determine what a good point would be to TWF. Because I'm probably better off beginning with shield bash, power attack, and overrun so that I can function a little in campaign.

[Inyssius Tor]

You know, if you look at the top of the first page you'll see a thread entitled Simple Q&A (By RAW) III (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45885). The purpose of the thread: answering simple questions.

These last few questions are not really simple questions, though, and do deserve their own thread. This one, for instance. :smalltongue:

[ImpFireball]

Right now I'm looking at TWF at 3rd level of reg fighter. At this point, is it advisable that I move onto varied fighter or barbarian? Or should I move onto varied fighter at 2nd level?

The problem is that it won't be until 5th level of reg fighter that I can have wep specs, cleave and great cleave; but I guess that doesn't apply with all those attacks you already mentioned. So really, I'll wait until I'm effectively level 8 before I get cleave, great cleave and wep specs. From then on I can probably just stack up on more specs, focuses, for any other level of reg fighter unless I find it worthwhile.

As for the sneak attack bonus feats issue, do human bonus feats count? Along with snap kick and head butt, does that require levels of monk (and in that case, allow them to be added as bonus feats). Or can the feats be taken independantly?

If all is well, here's my order:

1st level fighter: Shield bash, power attack
1st level Monk: Snap kick (bonus feat), TWF (bonus feat)
2nd level Monk: Overrun (bonus feat), Evasion (Is it possible to ditch evasion for something else?)
2nd level fighter: I got nothin'!
1st level barb: Pounce (AKA: leap attack), Bullrush (bonus feat)
1st level varied fighter (This allowed? If this is actually allowed as a seperate class by the DM, then that's a bonus feat for me): Sneak Attack, Improved Initiative (Gah! I need that to retain the combination!)
3rd level fighter: Cometary Collision
5th level: Shock Trooper
And finally, when most other characters are 9th level, I'll have cleave. And then great cleave at 8th level fighter (8th level fighter, technically, totallying 10 levels). Should be enough. I mean, Roy had it around that point in time in the beginning of OoTS. Later on: Improved TWF, and then Super Totally Awesome kickass TWF tier 3 at level 11. Eventually, I'll have quickdraw, flying kick with wep focus and specs, and whirlwind so that I can go from whirling armored spikey death, to actual kick ass spartan hoplite with lance. :P Who knows where I'll be if I ever make it to level 20.

Early on, my character should have enough money to get heavy armor, and have everything spiked including the gauntlets. So, right now only the shield is spiked. I mean, think about it, this could allow me to take out the damn half-ogre with a spiked chain, without the need of cliffs! :D

The short sword only benefits for TWFing, not to mention I can't find a place to fit in whirling steel, considering I need slots for both head butt and snap kick.

Question: How many standard feats do you recieve per level?
And is 'two weapon pounce' a feat of its own?
And do the damage of sneak attacks increase with your BAB, or total level?

Let's check out melee with my combo that I've written down at level 8: BAB +8, +4 strength, wep focus +1, so that's a +13 attack bonus, +12 on shield bash (main hand), +11 on snap kick, and probably +9 on head butt or whatever (-4 for third offhand if that also applies with non improved TWF related attacks). Fair at all? The only feat I'm losing out on is quick draw, unless you guys wanna clarify on the feat/level issue. Wep specs helps for dealing unarmed damage. At 1st level, it's already lethal due to gauntlet related issues. I don't know if taking a level of monk and aquiring the unarmed fighting feat raises the size of die at all...

EDIT: Here's my char (http://www.rpgwebprofiler.net/view.php?id=56203), so you can tell me what you think. Still need answers to those questions however. :P

UPDATED, effectively my char is a fighter, barbarian, ranger monk. Totalling out to elite spartan hoplite. :P

[Tor the Fallen]

Barbarian for your first level is best- max d12 HD, more skill points, and a slightly larger skill list. Rage is also useful.

Sneak attack fighter is identical to the regular fighter except in one regard- you lose all fighter bonus feats, and instead gain a sneak attack progression identical to that of the rogue. Sneak attack replaces bonus feats.

Headbutt actually isn't a feat; it comes from the monk's flurry description. It could be really any part of you that you wish to strike with as an unarmed strike- elbows, knees, legs, etc.

If you go the monk route, it would be best if you just went naked and didn't bother with shield/armor. If you are really set on the hoplite image, don't bother with levels of monk, since you lose BAB, and the DM is likely to rule that you can't flurry (as in the monk class ability, flurry of blows) with a shield.

Also, you don't want a lance; you want a one handed weapon, like a shortspear or something. Lances require two hands when you aren't mounted.

If you have the pounce ability from the lion totem barb variant, don't bother with two weapon pounce. Two weapon pounce only lets you make two attacks, not your full attack, and I think you can only add sneak attack damage to that once. Two weapon rend would be better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

May I point you to the Psychic Warrior?

A Barb1/PsiWar4 is a surprisingly powerful build.

One of the powers you can manifest is Psionic Lion's Pounce, which lets you do a full attack on a charge. PsiWar also gets some bonus feats, which come in handy. The only problem with the PsiWar is the 3/4 BAB. Of course, this can be solved with the Slayer PrC, which has 9/10 manifesting progression and full BAB, basically the EK of psionics, only better because you also eventually get complete immunity to mind-affecting stuff.

[Tor the Fallen]

May I point you to the Psychic Warrior?

A Barb1/PsiWar4 is a surprisingly powerful build.

One of the powers you can manifest is Psionic Lion's Pounce, which lets you do a full attack on a charge. PsiWar also gets some bonus feats, which come in handy. The only problem with the PsiWar is the 3/4 BAB. Of course, this can be solved with the Slayer PrC, which has 9/10 manifesting progression and full BAB, basically the EK of psionics, only better because you also eventually get complete immunity to mind-affecting stuff.

And you can still prance around in mithral fullplate without worrying about your spells fizzling.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And you can still prance around in mithral fullplate without worrying about your spells fizzling.

Actually, a Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword1/EK10/AM1 with +1 Twilight Faycraft Mithral Fullplate can get away with a 0% ASF chance too...

Here's how it breaks down:

Full plate has a 35% ASF.

-10% from Mithral

-10% from Twilight

-10% from 1st level Spellsword

-5% from Faycraft

But yes, psionics not needing to worry about ASF makes things handy without having to jump through hoops to do it.

[Tor the Fallen]

Actually, a Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword1/EK10/AM1 with +1 Twilight Faycraft Mithral Fullplate can get away with a 0% ASF chance too...

Here's how it breaks down:

Full plate has a 35% ASF.

-10% from Mithral

-10% from Twilight

-10% from 1st level Spellsword

-5% from Faycraft

But yes, psionics not needing to worry about ASF makes things handy without having to jump through hoops to do it.

That loses what, 3 caster levels?

[ImpFireball]

That's kinda the build I was gonna go for with my 1st level pally (Jarol), but thanks anyway.

Now as for flurry, would the DM still allow me to perform 'head butt' without the whole 'you can't flurry bitch' issue? I mean, personally I'd consider a flurry to be more then one attack with a single limb. Head butt might also work, and if the DM's smart enough to see what I'm really getting at, can include bonus damage if I head butt with my steel macedonian-esque helm. Effectively, I could then spike my helm as well for either even more damage, or for simply the bonus damage benefit. :P

Hell, the DM could pay me back by occassionally declaring that my helm fell off mid-battle. Upon which point, my char'll probably resort to throwin' it like the crazy bastard he's supposed to turn out to be. >_>

Heh, headbutt not being included as a feat... that'll leave me one slot extra open. :O

[Tor the Fallen]

Wizards' FAQ gives contradictory answers to whether you can flurry with your hands full of weapons, or not. As such, it's up to individual DMs to determine.

As for getting a 'headbutt' attack, technically it'd only be an unarmed strike that you get from the monk flurry of blows special feature. Again, there's a question of whether a you can use a gauntlet or other such item on whatever you're making the attack with. Since you'll have to be a monk to make the attack, you're already doing a base of 1d6 damage, which isn't that bad.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, you cannot flurry if you are using weapons other than monk-specific weapons. You loose any and all flurry/AC bonus/any reason to play a monk if you put on armor. Don't do it.

If you're going Monk, then go unarmed and unarmored. Grab Snap Kick as soon as you can, and Improved Natural Attack to increase your unarmed damage a size category. You don't need armor if you're a monk, you've probably got more AC than the tank anyways. If necessary, ask the caster to drop a Mage Armor on you for a +4. That oughtta be plenty.

[Tor the Fallen]

No, you cannot flurry if you are using weapons other than monk-specific weapons.

Huh, you're right.
Where the hell did I see that?

[Jasdoif]

Huh, you're right.
Where the hell did I see that?You can flurry while wielding non-monk weapons, you just can't use them as part of the flurry. A monk can make an unarmed strike with any part of their body, so a monk wielding a greataxe (for whatever goofy reason) could flurry using kicks, headbutts, etc. as unarmed strikes in the flurry; but not the greataxe.

That's probably what you saw.

[DSCrankshaw]

While using Improved Shield Bash with Two Weapon Fighting does burn up a lot of feats, it may be a good idea for a ranger, who can get the TWF tree as his Combat Style and is usually hurting for AC due to the light armor requirement. Make your shield bashing and spiked (which stack, according to the FAQ) as soon as possible, and get d8 or d10 damage die, depending on whether you use a light or heavy shield. Hmm, maybe try:

1 - Improved Shield Bash
2 - Combat Style (Two Weapon)
3 - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
6 - Power Attack

That'll let you power attack with both your shield and regular weapon. If he's human, take Power Attack as your human bonus feat.

You can do pretty much the same thing with a regular fighter, except you'll need incredible Dexterity and there's not as much need, since you can wear any armor you want. The feats work out a little better, since the Fighter gets so many bonus feats.

1 - Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting (F)
2 - Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (F)
3 - Power Attack

If he's human, just push the feats earlier.

In both builds I saved the Power Attack until you could use a heavy shield in your off hand, partly because Power Attack works better this way, and partly because you'll be investing good money in a powerful bashing shield, so you'll want to be able to use a heavy shield to bash as soon as possible.

[ImpFireball]

I may have to get rid of a few extra fighter bonus feats (only about 2 or 3 in that build I showed you guys) in order to use sneak attack. I think it'll be worth it however, since I can remove the nigh-useless crap such as quickdraw, weapon focus, and even wep spec. I can then implement them for later, and it shouldn't make much difference if I have everything at level 15 instead of say, 13. :P

And... here's my build.

1st level fighter: Overrun, power attack
1st level Monk: Snap kick (bonus feat), TWF (bonus feat)
2nd level Monk: Shield Bash (bonus feat), Evasion (Is it possible to ditch evasion for something else?)
2nd level fighter: I got nothin'!
1st level barb: Pounce (AKA: leap attack), Bullrush (bonus feat)
1st level varied fighter (This allowed? If this is actually allowed as a seperate class by the DM, then that's a bonus feat for me): Sneak Attack, Improved Initiative (Gah! I need that to retain the combination!)
3rd level fighter: Cometary Collision
5th level: Shock Trooper
And finally, when most other characters are 9th level, I'll have cleave. And then great cleave at 8th level fighter (8th level fighter, technically, totallying 10 levels). Should be enough. I mean, Roy had it around that point in time in the beginning of OoTS. Later on: Improved TWF, and then Super Totally Awesome kickass TWF tier 3 at level 11. Eventually, I'll have quickdraw, flying kick with wep focus and specs, and whirlwind so that I can go from whirling armored spikey death, to actual kick ass spartan hoplite with lance. :P Who knows where I'll be if I ever make it to level 20.

I'll have to add a shortsword to my equipment list. Of which I can't afford without feeling like I'm cheating. So I'll probably ask for one from some other helpless char. :D

Questions:
- Can I replace monk evasion with something else?
- Turns out I don't get great cleave until total level of 15 :(, which means flying kick and unarmed wep specs don't come until around level 20.

[Fax Celestis]

- Can I replace monk evasion with something else?

Complete Mage has an alternative to Evasion.

[ImpFireball]

Yeah, but I'm kinda trying to stick with the 'armored death' image here. Thanks anyway. :P

Unless, by 'complete mage' you mean a rulebook?

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, but I'm kinda trying to stick with the 'armored death' image here. Thanks anyway. :P

Unless, by 'complete mage' you mean a rulebook?

I do indeed.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you are wanting Armored Death, don't use Monk. It's really not that hard a concept. It gives you jack and squat if you put on armor. So if you plan on using armor, don't get monk levels.

Also, your build is totally whack.

How are you getting snap kick and TWF as bonus feats at 1st level monk? Neither of those are on the monk bonus feat list. At 1st level monk, your bonus feat is either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist.

You can't get Shield Bash at 2nd level monk as a bonus feat (although, if you meet the prerequsites, you can get it as your 3rd character level feat). You can trade in your evasion for an ability that lets you reflect ranged touch attack spells if they miss, but it has the same restrictions as evasion, you can't be in armor when doing it. But really, Evasion is just crack good, there's no reason not to get it.

Pounce is *NOT* Leap Attack. They are two completely different things. You don't get a bonus feat at 1st level Barbarian.

You've already taken a level of Fighter, you cannot take a variant fighter class.

Your build, as stated, has 14 character levels, not 9.

If you're wanting a 'armored smack down guy', here's my suggestion:

1st level: Barbarian 1. Feat: Power Attack
2nd level: Fighter 1. Feat: Improved Bull Rush
3rd level: Fighter 2. Feats: Combat Expertise, Dodge
4th level: Barbarian 2
5th level: Barbarian 3
6th level: Barbarian 4 Feat: Shock Trooper
9th level: Barbarian 7 Feat: Leaping Charge
12th level: Barbarian 10 Feat: Karmic Strike

Basically, this is your 'hulk smash' build. You wear Mithral Full Plate and wield a Greatsword. You beat things down. Hard.

You don't need Monk levels, they only hurt you. Start Barbarian for d12 hit die and extra skill points. Dip Fighter 2 for feats. Continue Barbarian. Not that hard.

[ImpFireball]

Well, from what you said, if I can get my DM to not be ANAL, then my build should probably work. Considering I already can't flurry with weapons, shield or wearing armor, which has been completely accounted for, thanks.

I'll change leap attack. Pounce also seems to be a monster feat, so yah that's taken into consideration now, finally. I'm glad someone only told me that just now. Jeeze guys. :P

And I believe the whole variant fighter thing is already punishing enough if you take away ALL fighter bonus feats. I'll apply to first level if I gotta, but is that really necessary? I mean, nothing's gonna change. Except maybe the fact that I'll be getting overrun and power attack later on. But I mean, who cares really.

And you can't be a 'smackdown' guy if you don't include overrun with sneak attack. And I believe bonus feats do apply in all regards, or at least should apply if you already got levels in fighter nonetheless. It's just a sneak attack, so I shouldn't get any more punishment other then loss of all fighter bonus feats.

Only stunning fist or improved grapple? That's like saying your only bonus feats are shovelling your crap at people or attempted molestation!
In other words, even for a monk, that's utterly useless.

And then saying lugging a 40 pound oversized sword around the battlefield is tactically more acceptable then a hoplite phalanx that won many many battles in real life.

[Tor the Fallen]

You've already taken a level of Fighter, you cannot take a variant fighter class.

You can mix some variant classes with their vanilla versions. Sneak attack fighter is one of them (along with feat rogue), I think. You cannot; however, combine different barbarian totem variants or wizard specialists.

[Tor the Fallen]

Well, from what you said, if I can get my DM to not be ANAL, then my build should probably work. Considering I already can't flurry with weapons, shield or wearing armor, which has been completely accounted for, thanks.

I'll change leap attack. Pounce also seems to be a monster feat, so yah that's taken into consideration now, finally. I'm glad someone only told me that just now. Jeeze guys. :P

And I believe the whole variant fighter thing is already punishing enough if you take away ALL fighter bonus feats. I'll apply to first level if I gotta, but is that really necessary? I mean, nothing's gonna change. Except maybe the fact that I'll be getting overrun and power attack later on. But I mean, who cares really.

And you can't be a 'smackdown' guy if you don't include overrun with sneak attack. And I believe bonus feats do apply in all regards, or at least should apply if you already got levels in fighter nonetheless. It's just a sneak attack, so I shouldn't get any more punishment other then loss of all fighter bonus feats.

Only stunning fist or improved grapple? That's like saying your only bonus feats are shovelling your crap at people or attempted molestation!
In other words, even for a monk, that's utterly useless.

And then saying lugging a 40 pound oversized sword around the battlefield is tactically more acceptable then a hoplite phalanx that won many many battles in real life.

Wow, you just took the rules, misundersttod them, then spat on them.

Good luck convincing your DM to pretty much give you whatever feat you want at every level. I suggest you read up on the core rules a little better.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, from what you said, if I can get my DM to not be ANAL, then my build should probably work. Considering I already can't flurry with weapons, shield or wearing armor, which has been completely accounted for, thanks.
Following the rules is not being anal


I'll change leap attack. Pounce also seems to be a monster feat, so yah that's taken into consideration now, finally. I'm glad someone only told me that just now. Jeeze guys. :P
It was in the SRD you were referred to multiple times... at least Pounce was


And I believe the whole variant fighter thing is already punishing enough if you take away ALL fighter bonus feats. I'll apply to first level if I gotta, but is that really necessary? I mean, nothing's gonna change. Except maybe the fact that I'll be getting overrun and power attack later on. But I mean, who cares really.
Why bother with 1d6 Sneak Attack?


And you can't be a 'smackdown' guy if you don't include overrun with sneak attack. And I believe bonus feats do apply in all regards, or at least should apply if you already got levels in fighter nonetheless. It's just a sneak attack, so I shouldn't get any more punishment other then loss of all fighter bonus feats.
Yes you can. Power Attack/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/two-handed weapon. You're doing FAR more damage than ANY sneak attacker ever thought of doing. How about three times your BAB to damage? That beats even 10d6 sneak attack, much less the paltry 1d6 you're using


Only stunning fist or improved grapple? That's like saying your only bonus feats are shovelling your crap at people or attempted molestation!
In other words, even for a monk, that's utterly useless.
Apparently you've never seen a grapple monk build... Monks are NOT fighters, they don't get fighter bonus feats. To quote the RULES:


Bonus Feat
At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

Your bonus feats from monk are from a very specific list.


And then saying lugging a 40 pound oversized sword around the battlefield is tactically more acceptable then a hoplite phalanx that won many many battles in real life.

1) the Greatsword listed is 8 lbs, not 40.
2) A hopilite phalanx is a HUNDRED PEOPLE, not one, wielding huge spears in formation. A guy tries to charge that, they're gonna provoke like 3 AoO before the guy ever gets to make his first attack, more if the hopilites have Hold the Line feat. However, a single person with a spear just doesn't do a whole lot. Not unless you're talking something like Tiger Fork work from Jet Li's Fearless. Also, phalanxes were pwned hardcore by longbows... that's one of the reasons why they aren't still used today.

[Roderick_BR]

If you want to TWF with a shield, I'd suggest taking Agile Shield Fighter, that is like a TWF with shields, and less pre-requisites. As a DM, I'd houserule improved and greater versions for it, and allow you to get TW Pounce, Dual Strike, and TW Rend with it.

[ImpFireball]

Once again, now you tell me. Where'd all this other **** come from?

You know what? Forget it. This is why I hate this game, and the fact that it's reserved for technicalist geeks.

[asqwasqw]

Once again, now you tell me. Where'd all this other **** come from?

You know what? Forget it. This is why I hate this game, and the fact that it's reserved for technicalist geeks.

Your pissed because you can't do whatever you think is reasonable??

Make your own game then.

[ImpFireball]

No, I'm pissed because I've continously crappified my fighter to meet the rules that people have only just begun to correct me on at ideal points in time, until I just thought: forget it. And that pisses me off, because I can't get hoplite without having specific feats. Where's the creativity? D&D destroys that ****.

It aint fun. And because of that, it makes me wonder if this is just a game for nerds to fuss and fume and debate over math and technical issues (very little debating required right there, so this raises confusion, eh?) rather then actually being open minded and having fun with a friggen game that requires you to use your imagination.

And here I thought I could get 4 attacks in armor at just around the time that base attack grants you an extra attack. :P

I've got one last request: What's the descrip for snap kick? And I believe you gotta get rid of flurry to get that anyway.

[asqwasqw]

Why have a game with rules then if you just want to follow your concept? D&D is part character creation, and you need to understand the rules well, if not fully, in order to create your ideal character. In D&D, you can't just run a concept just because you think it is cool, with little understanding of the rules. But, meh, it's your choice on whether or not to play D&D.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Hopilite is weak and inefficent by himself. He is only effective with his 99 othe buddies making a phalanx. By himself, he is a putz with a greatly oversized spear, a large shield, and no clue of what to do, usually conscripted off the streets. However, in your standard 10 X 10 formation, a phalanx of these people are extremely dangerous, because you can't close into melee without getting skewered.

Sadly, one spear is a LOT easier to dodge than a dozen that you're gonna have to deal with closing with a phalanx.

HOWEVER

If you are wanting to be able to make four attacks a round when most people are only able to make two a round? This is simple...

Ranger 6.

1st level: Improved Shield Bash
2nd level:Two Weapon Fighting (bonus)
3rd level: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
6th level: Improved Two Weapon Fighting (bonus), any cool feat

Congratulations. You are duo-wielding Large Shield and any one-handed weapon of your choice, making four attacks in a round, at level 6.
You can do all this in Mithral Full Plate too.

Is this enough cheeze to go with your whine?

[ImpFireball]

I didn't the descrip for snapkick yet, so no. It aint enough cheeze.

And btw, isn't standard that everyone can choose one feat of their own for first level and every odd level thereafter?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't the descrip for snapkick yet.

And btw, isn't standard that everyone can choose one feat of their own for first level and every odd level thereafter?

No, it's one feat at 1st, then an additional feat at 3rd and every three levels thereafter.

So 1, 3, 6,9, 12, 15, and 18 are when everyone gets their standard feats, which may be used on anything they have the prerequsites for.

Snap Kick is not SRD content, therefore you would have to purchase Tome of Battle for the exact description, as quoting direct content is against the copywrite laws, not to mention the rules of the forum. However I can say that it requires Improved Unarmed Strike and a Base Attack Bonus of +6, which means you're not getting it before 6th level no matter what, and probably not then due to the prerequsites.

It also doesn't really do much but give you another attack based on your unarmed damage. Considering most people do 1d4 SUBDUAL with an unarmed attack, it's really not worth it.

[ImpFireball]

Subdual? So if I were to flurry, I could hit unarmed, then hit again, and then use my offhand weapon as part of TWF? And with snapkick, I could apply a snapkick to the whole process. That counts, I'm assuming?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Subdual? So if I were to flurry, I could hit unarmed, then hit again, and then use my offhand weapon as part of TWF? And with snapkick, I could apply a snapkick to the whole process. That counts, I'm assuming?

No, there would be no flurry involved. Basically, you attack with your primary weapon, then your secondary weapon, then your primary weapon again, then your secondary weapon again, then your snap kick. Of course, your snap kick would be doing 1d4 non-lethal damage.

In other words, it follows these rules:


Dealing Nonlethal Damage
Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not "real" damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

So in other words, it sucks. There's really no point to it unless you start investing heavily into unarmed feats, by which point your idea of an armored hopilite becomes so much dust. Hopilites didn't kick anyways, they just stood in formation with long spears and shields.

[ImpFireball]

But seeing as you can't flurry unless unarmed, I could make an unarmed attack twice along with the spare offhand attack that I get from TWF. Of course, my offhand would be carrying a weapon. Combined with snapkick, that's four attacks. Not to mention damage becomes lethal. Not to mention I can spike my boots and gloves for greater damage, considering gloves and boots don't count as armor or weapons (indeed, it's still considered an unarmed attack) as per the monk description. Unless of course an anal DM decides to declare that gloves and boots are improvised weapons. >_<
Of course, upon which point I could argue that improvisation would probably be the act of slapping a guy with a pair of gloves and boots, like a complete and total retard, using your hands to hold them rather then actually wearing the spiked gloves/boots.

That's pretty much all that I'm wondering about.

EDIT: Damn, Rich should probably include that joke somewhere. :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But seeing as you can't flurry unless unarmed, I could make an unarmed attack twice along with the spare offhand attack that I get from TWF. Of course, my offhand would be carrying a weapon. Combined with snapkick, that's four attacks. Not to mention damage becomes lethal. Not to mention I can spike my boots and gloves for greater damage, considering gloves and boots don't count as armor or weapons (indeed, it's still considered an unarmed attack) as per the monk description. Unless of course an anal DM decides to declare that gloves and boots are improvised weapons. >_<

That's pretty much all that I'm wondering about.

If you are wanting to do an unarmed combatant, then do that. If you are wanting to be an armed combatant, then do that. But you cannot have an armed combatant which is also a good unarmed combatant. That's called game balance.

You cannot combine Flurry with Two Weapon Fighting. They don't stack.

If you want to go Monk, then go Monk. You won't be using any armor, because it'll completely nerf any potential reason to go monk.

You won't be able to get Snap Kick until level 9th level because you won't meet the prerequsites.

Spiked Armor and Spiked Gauntlets are considered to be weapons, not an unarmed attack. It's specifically listed. This is not being anal, this is following the rules.

Basically what you are wanting to do is be good at everything and be the most powerful character in the game... and that's just not fair to everyone else.

Pick one... do you want to be an armed Hopilite, or do you want to be an unarmed Monk. Because the two are VERY different concepts, and are simply not compatable.

[ImpFireball]

You kidding? I'm 'all around' but I lack any medium or focus. And so my character would never have special high-tier abilities that anyone else could have access to if they went full-on! Not to mention the build was grossly multi-classed, and I had little to NO feats in armed combat. There's your balance. Think about it. This is after several levels, so a monk or fighter could friggen sunder my armor if they wanted to.

And yah, that is being anal I'm afraid because you haven't given me proof why flurry and TWF don't stack, no matter WHICH WAY they're used. Besides, genuine stacking would be flurrying a two weaponed attack, which I'm clearly not doing. And if the core rules wanted to say that they don't stack, then they'd say it, and they wouldn't dissallow you to take TWF if you went full on monk.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You kidding? I'm 'all around' but I lack any medium or focus. And so my character would never have special high-tier abilities that anyone else could have access to if they went full-on! Not to mention the build was grossly multi-classed. There's your balance.

An attempt at munchkining and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The point is you simply cannot flurry while in armor. Nothing you say will change that. Neither can you flurry with weapons. Nothing you say will change that either. Don't like it? Play something else. I don't know what your goal to build is anymore. Try figuring out what you want besides 'uber' and we'll talk some more.


And yah, that is being anal I'm afraid because you haven't given me proof why flurry and TWF don't stack, no matter WHICH WAY they're used. Besides, genuine stacking would be flurrying a two weaponed attack, which I'm clearly not doing. And if the core rules wanted to say that they don't stack, then they'd say it, and they wouldn't dissallow you to take TWF if you went full on monk.

The only thing I have to say that is RTFM and reiterate that if you don't like how the rules are written, play something else.

[brian c]

2) A hopilite phalanx is a HUNDRED PEOPLE, not one, wielding huge spears in formation. A guy tries to charge that, they're gonna provoke like 3 AoO before the guy ever gets to make his first attack, more if the hopilites have Hold the Line feat. However, a single person with a spear just doesn't do a whole lot. Not unless you're talking something like Tiger Fork work from Jet Li's Fearless. Also, phalanxes were pwned hardcore by longbows... that's one of the reasons why they aren't still used today.

Reason #2 that phalanxes aren't used today: guns

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reason #2 that phalanxes aren't used today: guns

Yes, but archery made them obsolete long before any sort of reliable gunpowder weapon was invented. Actually, gunpowder brought BACK the phalanx... only instead of phalanxes of spears, it was phalanxes of musketmen. See also: Napoelonic Era formations.

[Fax Celestis]

You cannot combine Flurry with Two Weapon Fighting. They don't stack.

According to who? The FAQ says otherwise:


Can a monk fight with two weapons? Can she combine a two-weapon attack with a flurry of blows? What are her penalties on attack rolls?

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

For example, at 6th level, the monk Ember can normally make one attack per round at a +4 bonus. When using flurry of blows, she can make two attacks (using unarmed strikes or any special monk weapons she holds), each at a +3 bonus. If she wants to make an extra attack with her off hand, she has to accept a –4 penalty on her primary hand attacks and a –8 penalty on her off-hand attacks (assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand).

If Ember has Two-Weapon Fighting, she has to accept only a –2 penalty on all attacks to make an extra attack with her off hand. Thus, when wielding a light weapon in her off hand during a flurry of blows, she can make a total of three attacks, each at a total bonus of +1. At least one of these attacks has to be with her off-hand weapon.

A 20th-level monk with Greater Two-Weapon Fighting can make eight attacks per round during a flurry of blows. Assuming she wields a light weapon in her off hand, her three off-hand weapon attacks are at +13/+8/+3, and she has five attacks (at +13/+13/+13/+8/+3) with unarmed strikes or any weapons she carries in her primary hand. If the same monk also has Rapid Shot and throws at least one shuriken as part of her flurry of blows (since Rapid Shot can be used only with ranged attacks), she can throw one additional shuriken with her primary hand, but all of her attacks (even melee attacks) suffer
a –2 penalty. Thus, her full attack array looks like this: +11/+11/+11/+11/+6/+1 primary hand (two must be with shuriken) and +11/+6/+1 off hand.

Also:


Neither can you flurry with weapons. Nothing you say will change that either.

Also not true. You can flurry with weapons demarcated as "special monk weapons" such as the shuriken, kama, siangham, or sai.


Flurry of Blows (Ex)

When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round. The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column on Table: The Monk. This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the monk might make before her next action. When a monk reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. A monk must use a full attack action to strike with a flurry of blows.

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus × 1½ or ×½) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

In the case of the quarterstaff, each end counts as a separate weapon for the purpose of using the flurry of blows ability. Even though the quarterstaff requires two hands to use, a monk may still intersperse unarmed strikes with quarterstaff strikes, assuming that she has enough attacks in her flurry of blows routine to do so.

[ImpFireball]

Hey dude, a phalanx of gunmen par 17th century isn't a phalanx. Just because they're lined up doesn't make them a phalanx. Tell that to Leonidas and he'd slap you in the face after one glance at a 21st century history text.

Not to mention gunmen on both lines to tend to fall very fast.

Long bows merely provide greater range. There may have been less experienced hoplites who tried to employ the usual phalanx strategy only to fall carelessly to far off arrows. I don't imagine spartans would, though.

Unless of course long bows were used in foggy situations thus making them hard to see as they came, and being allowed to rain consistently for literal hours on end. Which leaves a question of how the hell the archers could see where they were shooting to, which also leaves the question of how they ever managed to maintain such sophisticated communication so as to know whether or not the enemy phalanx happened to simply pack and move a little.

There could also be the possibility of the hoplites being unable to catch the longbow archers due to the archer's ability to shoot and then run due to sheer firing distance. Of course the hoplites could stand their ground, but the phalanx's only immense weakness is in a siege situation where longbows prove best. Indeed,enough arrows being fired consistently in hit and run tactics could've starved hoplites. When the hoplites leave after a few months, the enemy rushes in when they're unprepared. :P
I imagine that could've literally happened. But that's the only 'longbow beats hoplite' scenario I could think of.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Hey dude, a phalanx of gunmen par 17th century isn't a phalanx. Just because they're lined up doesn't make them a phalanx. Tell that to Leonidas and he'd slap you in the face after one glance at a 21st century history text.

Not to mention gunmen on both lines to tend to fall very fast.

Long bows merely provide greater range. There may have been less experienced hoplites who tried to employ the usual phalanx strategy only to fall carelessly to far off arrows. I don't imagine spartans would, though.

Unless of course long bows were used in foggy situations thus making them hard to see as they came, and being allowed to rain consistently for literal hours on end. Which leaves a question of how the hell the archers could see where they were shooting to, which also leaves the question of how they ever managed to maintain such sophisticated communication so as to know whether or not the enemy phalanx happened to simply pack and move a little.

There could also be the possibility of the hoplites being unable to catch the longbow archers due to the archer's ability to shoot and then run due to sheer firing distance. Of course the hoplites could stand their ground, but the phalanx's only immense weakness is in a siege situation where longbows prove best. Indeed,enough arrows being fired consistently in hit and run tactics could've starved hoplites. When the hoplites leave after a few months, the enemy rushes in when they're unprepared. :P
I imagine that could've literally happened. But that's the only 'longbow beats hoplite' scenario I could think of.

Napoleonic formations were nothing more than phalanxes of musket men. True, they fell fast, but it was the same damn formation, and the same damn drill. This from my Military History professor. Since he's got a PhD, and I'm not even sure you have a High School Diploma, I think I'm gonna go with his answer.

Spartans never got the chance to fall to arrows. Sparta fell long before the Longbow (and just as importantly, the grey goose shaft) were around. They got beat down by the Romans with sheer numbers.

A Phalanx is a tight mass of bodies. It makes for an easy target for massed archery. Sure, they've got shields, but you've also got archers arcing shots down at obsuse angles. Unless they Porcupine and Turtle, they're gonna get stuck long before they can reach the archers. Calvary also tended to put paid to phalanxes. A heavy calvary charge with full lance would murder a phalanx because the phalanx was inflexable, and they could swing around in a flank and hit them from the side before the phalanx could shift to the new face. Ironically, the Swiss Pikemen used a phalanx style formation to beat heavy calvary a few centuries later with even longer pointy sticks. Of course, they did it by choosing their terrain a lot better. The Alps are a lot harder to charge into than Greece.

There are several counters to 'lots of guys with pointy sticks'. It was good back in the bronze age, but the Romans beat them with Centurions, mostly because they used Iron rather than Bronze, and the romans used lead-tipped throwing darts (short spears, really). Each one weighed about five pounds, and tended to stick to the shield they were throwing at. You try and keep your shield up after it gets about twenty pounds of lead stuck to it. Then the second volley comes in over the shield and you're pretty much dead. Those that were left, the Romans marched in with their shields, avoiding pointy sticks with their shields, and used their shortswords in much closer range to butcher the greek phalanx. That, and they also took advantage of the Phalanx's inflexability and flanked the phalanx, surrounding them and attacking all four sides at once.

Do you actually know anything about hopilities or are you basing the entirety of your argument on the movie 300?

[Matthew]

Whoah, Shneekey, I think you may be falling into the trap of the other extremity. The Spartans at Thermopylae received a great many Arrows and apparently resisted them - the whole fighting in the shade thing springs to mind. What strength of Bows they were facing and at what range is another matter, but there were plenty of opportunities for Spartans to encounter ranged weaponry prior to the Romans and, indeed, Thucydides describes the effect of deploying Light Foot on rugged terrain against the Spartans (they surrendered, which was *very* surprising).

By the time the *new* Romans were fighting the Greeks, the Hoplite Phalanx was a different animal, as Polybius describes, but it was part of a combined arms force. The Roman Heavy Foot was more versatile, but exactly what he means Polybius doesn't explain. Certainly, it wasn't a Bronze versus Iron situation, but the Roman Gladius Hispanaeus was apparently very effective compared to the Iron Swords the Greeks were using.

Cavalry deployed against a Phalanx almost only ever works in combination with some other force, usually a combination of Light and Heavy Foot. Greece is a pretty rugged place and hardly ideal for Cavalry operations.

The Roman Darts that you are describing, are you thinking of Plumbata? That's a very controversial subject. The Romans mainly used Javelins in the late Republic, but that depended on troop type. the degree to which Darts saw service at that time is an open question, as far as I am aware.

We're strolling across time periods here, though. We'd have to really tighten things up to have a meaningful examination of this sort of thing.

But yeah, 300 is not an authentic recreation of Ancient Greece and the Spartans, whilst good soldiers, weren't unbeatable by a long stretch of the imagination.

[ImpFireball]

Technology has nothing to do with nothing, because it could easily be assumed that greece would've began using iron after awhile. Not to mention the spartans were seen scraping the arrows off their shields after that magnificent volley you saw in the movie. I'd also like to mention that the spartans didn't start suffering losses until they met the swordsage-like asian immortals. Additionally, the spartans barely made actual use of the phalanx until they encountered overwhelming odds, such as when they were faced with war elephants. Probably the best thing the persians could have done was to send mutliple rhinos at the enemy to simply break right through (it seemed to be lucky that the one rhino collapsed before it reached the phalanx, lolz), but I guess we can only assume that they couldn't afford it.

Another unique strategy that the romans might have employed (possibly before cataphracts in the middle ages) were mounted archers. Wielding both bow and sword while mounted tends to be a deadly combination.

BTW, the only point in the movie in which a two handed sword could've kicked ass was when it was wielded by that ogre dude. :P
Once again though, the persians can't afford to employ too many ogres. XD

[Matthew]

Um, there's no need to assume it. The Greeks were using Iron for their Weapons during the Iron Age, as can be seen in the Archaeological record. A word of advice, though, don't pay any attention to 300 for any sort of 'Real World History'. As far as representing that reality (i.e. 300's) in D&D, I think you might well be best served with Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords. Over the top combat seems to be what it was designed to model.

[Edit]
Mounted Archers aren't particularly unique or powerful. They saw service wherever it was useful.

[ImpFireball]

Yah, I guess I'll check ToB out, but I aint spending money. Spending money on imaginary crap aint my style unless I'm planning on writing a book to get it out there. :P

Cataphracts were pretty damn good as 'elite task forces' against primitive groups where romans couldn't afford to take losses, btw. Infantry in other words. Probably not phalanx's though. In any case, arrows had little to do with the true destruction of the phalanx. It was all to do with environments and technology. The greeks didn't use iron until much later which eventually played its role in allowing divided greece to be conquored and submerged by the romans.

[Matthew]

Damn, my post got eaten.

The Greeks used iron as much and at the same time as the Romans. I think you really need to pin down the period and locality you have in mind when making general statements, as it makes all the difference. Cataphracts are a fairly late development in the Roman Army.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bringing us back to the original question, which was not answered...

What are you trying to do with your character?

You're not going to be able to get 4+ attacks at level one. Sorry. Not going to happen. You won't be able to qualify for Snap Kick until 9th level.

So what ARE you wanting to do? Specifically, the following have never been answered:

1) Armored or unarmored? If you are armored, do not take any monk levels, because they will be a complete waste of time.

2) Weapons? What weapons do you want to use? Unarmed? Spear and shield? Big huge spear? Aword and shield? You've never really made it clear

3) Style? What sort of character is he? Is he a charging into the middle of combat kind of guy? A stand in line with his comrades kind of guy? What?

4) What level? Is he a 1st level character? 9th? 15th?

Apparently we have very different concepts of the term Hopilite. Please describe your character so that we can better help you do what you want to do.

Arguments about RL military history really isn't helping him get his character built.

[ImpFireball]

Here's another question: Is it possible to multi-class between prestige classes and 'plain' classes? In other words, can you take on levels of prestige and then revert back to plain periodically?

New Character (I've decided to let the other one sit for awhile, before I head back to it and sort things out some more): I'm trying to design a barb, psi war, warmind combination. Kind of a violent and disturbed but morally strong character.

All my characters are beginning at level one, but I'm looking to take advantage of some complexities that I pray to god the DM's will allow, such as ToB, psionics, etc. All my characters so far are pretty much ending up like this. Like my psychic barbarian dude (beginning as 1st level barb), is already taking on pounce (in what way is this different from an actual leap attack feat?) instead of fast movement.

BTW, what was the whole manifestation rule for manifesting higher level powers at earlier class levels? I heard it takes more pp, but that aint what I'm worried about.

[Callix]

Err... Pounce lets you make a full attack after a charge. Leap Attack lets you double Power Attack bonus damage. Pounce is a monster feat, available to a variant Barbarian in Complete Champoin. Leap Attack is a feat in Complete Adventurer. I would advise reading the Complete series at least before asking broad questions on optimisation, or specifying books you have access to.

[Tor the Fallen]

Re Shneeky's question on "why sneak attack?"

When going with TWF builds, you need extra damage to really make all those swings pay off. Sneak attack is one way to do it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The manifest as a higher level manifester thing is called Overchanneling, but that ends up burning you pretty bad if you do it too often.

You are limited to a number of PP equal to your manifester level per power you manifest. So you cannot augment the hell out of a Power at low levels.

ToB content is nice. Psionics are nice. They tend to not play well together, however. Typically, ToB stuff can duplicate or do better than most of the stuff you'd be manifesting as a psychic warrior.

Build Suggestion #1: Warblade. D12 hit die, heavy armor, and good maneuvers. You can romp and stomp all you want.

Build Suggestion #2: PsiWar/Slayer/Pyro. Slayer continues PsiWar power progression, except the first level. Pyro4 gives you fun toys like +2d6 fire damage per hit, a flame lash you can create out of thin air that does 1d8 damage on a touch attack at out to 15', and you can shoot a 4d6 bolt of fire if they're out of your melee range.

As a psionicist, you don't need Pounce, because you can get Psionic Lion's Pounce as a power you can manifest. As a Warblade you don't need it, because there is a Tiger Fang maneuver which duplicates it.

Leap Attack increases the power attack damage you do if you leap during a charge at an opponent. Pounce gives you a full attack on a charge. Two seperate beasties.

[Runeclaw]

1st level fighter: Shield bash, power attack
1st level Monk: Snap kick (bonus feat), TWF (bonus feat)
2nd level Monk: Overrun (bonus feat), Evasion (Is it possible to ditch evasion for something else?)
2nd level fighter: I got nothin'!
1st level barb: Pounce (AKA: leap attack), Bullrush (bonus feat)

Be aware that Monk and Barbarian have conflicting alignment requirements (Any Lawful vs. Any Non-Lawful).

Luckily monks retain all their class abilities if they become non-Lawful, so I guess you'll just have to plan on "falling" from Lawfullnes sometime after earning your Monk 2 (and don't plan on ever returning to the Monk class) thereafter.

You've also got an awful lot of base class progressions in here, which is gonna get you into trouble with XP penalties if you aren't careful.

[Matthew]

One more thing. See if your DM will allow you to use Weapon Focus and Specialisation with a Weapon Proficiency Group (Hoplite Weapons). That way you should only have to expend two Feats on Focus and Specialisation and have them apply to Hoplite Sword, Shield and Spear. Two Weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Cleave, Leap Attack, Two Weapon Pounce and Oversized Two Weapon fighting should about wrap things up for a 300 style Hoplite Spartan.

[ImpFireball]

What're the descrips on two-weapon pounce? I'd also like a vague description on flying kick and sudden strikes (in other words, just tell me the prereqs and what they do :P).

Those other builds look great, but then again I've also got this other guy who starts off with barbarian, and eventually alternates between psiwar and barbarian until I reach around 6th or a higher level of psi war, and about 3rd level barbarian. I then move onto warmind for the simple cool-factor.

I've also got two other human fighter builds; one focused on simply throwing weapons (might not work out, but meh, I've got all the time in the world), and the simple two-handed punisher disher who, once having tied everything else down, recieves improved critical and eventually devastating critical at epic level.

The 2 handed fighter could become a warblade though, you never know. Is there also a wardancer class? And what's the descrip on 'agile fighter'?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Those other builds look great, but then again I've also got this other guy who starts off with barbarian, and eventually alternates between psiwar and barbarian until I reach around 6th or a higher level of psi war, and about 3rd level barbarian. I then move onto warmind for the simple cool-factor.
Impossible. Barbarian requires non-lawful alignment, Warmind requires Lawful alignment


I've also got two other human fighter builds; one focused on simply throwing weapons (might not work out, but meh, I've got all the time in the world), and the simple two-handed punisher disher who, once having tied everything else down, recieves improved critical and eventually devastating critical at epic level.

The 2 handed fighter could become a warblade though, you never know. Is there also a wardancer class? And what's the descrip on 'agile fighter'?

For two weapon fighting ultimateness, you either need to dip heavily into Shadow Hand/Tiger Claw/Desert Wind for addititional damage on every hit and tons of attacks, or you go into the Dervish PrC, which requires you use two scimitars. None of those are really any good with a weapon and shield combo, however, as they specify which weapons you have to use it with. Besides, you'd need to be a Swordsage to get both Shadow Hand and Desert Wind anyways, which only has 3/4 BAB and lower hit die than you're really wanting.

Fighter, in general, just plain sucks. Sorry, it's the weakest CORE class (and only a certain samurai class that has been mentioned elsewhere could compete with suckiest EVER). It's good for a two-level dip, but nothing more.

For a two-handed weapon fighter, your best bet is Warblade, dipping heavily into Tiger Claw and Iron Heart with some Diamond Mind and Stone Dragon thrown in for gravy. Pouncing Charge, a 5th level Tiger Claw maneuver, lets you get a full attack on a charge, then combine this with Power Attack/Shock Trooper/Leap Attack combo for something like 3X your BAB in damage to every attack. It dishes out INSANE damage. Then use Scything Blade from Iron Heart to obliterate other enemies in reach.

[NEO|Phyte]

Impossible. Barbarian requires non-lawful alignment, Warmind requires Lawful alignment
nonchaotic != lawful