Surprise Round problem

[Seppo87]

There is a room.
I cast Invisibility and enter the room.
Two enemies are inside, playing cards.
My stealth check beats their passive perception.
I get a surprise round. I use the surprise round to stay still and avoid detection.
The surprise round passes.

How does it work from here on? Combat has started, but they are not aware of my presence yet.

a) ...therefore it is not combat yet. There will be another Surprise round :smallwink:

b) Despite them not knowing that playing cards now counts as combat, they cannot be surprised anymore, because rules are wonky :smallconfused:

c) ...? :smallsigh:

[Kurald Galain]

The answer is that the guards will continue playing cards until they notice you (which would most likely be because you attack). Pathfinder doesn't switch to a different ruleset when "the combat music starts".

[Seppo87]

The answer is that the guards will continue playing cards until they notice you (which would most likely be because you attack). Pathfinder doesn't switch to a different ruleset when "the combat music starts".

But as a matter of fact, it does. In fact, there is a key difference:

If I attack in the surprise round, I get a chance at attacking twice, if my initiative is high enough, potentially applying sneak attack to both attacks, even after the first attack landed (ending invisibility) because the other guy has no acted yet.

If I instead wait and then my turn comes, and I attack, the situation works in an entirely different manner. Since my attack does not happen in a surprise round (and thus I can make a full attack), even if I have two attacks because of BaB, the second enemy won't be surprised, because he happened to be playing cards when a metagame construct called "initiative" was active.

Note that in a narrative sense nothing changes. I'm still attacking from invisibility when they are both distracted. But rules do have an impact.
In fact, just because I chose to wait, now suddenly "playing cards" counts as "acting" for the purposes of combat, when before it wouldn't.
See the difference?

And so,
Wouldn't it make more sense to just NOT start a surprise round until one begins an action that reveals his/her presence instead?

[Kurald Galain]

now suddenly "playing cards" counts as "acting" for the purposes of combat,
No, it doesn't.



Wouldn't it make more sense to just NOT start a surprise round until one begins an action that reveals his/her presence instead?
Clearly, if you're doing nothing that might surprise the guards yet, then it's not a surprise round.

[Seppo87]

Clearly, if you're doing nothing that might surprise the guards yet, then it's not a surprise round.
I agree, and I'm convinced this is how it should work :smallsmile:
The problem is that it's not clear at all; can you back this claim up with evidence? Because I looked for it, and couldn't find any :smalleek:

[Florian]

A Surprise Round only happens once, at the start of actual combat.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

[Seppo87]

A Surprise Round only happens once, at the start of actual combat.

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Can you define "actual combat" within existing rules?

[Nibbens]

I don't see why initiative would be rolled in this situation. Just because you see people playing cards (or orcs or golems or boulders and dirt and trees) doesn't mean that you always roll initiative.

If the DM called for initiative for just you and the card players and you do nothing and the card players continue playing cards, then you all drop out of initiative into free actions until you initiate a surprise round or until they hear you and actively begin searching four you.

If the DM called for initiative for you, your allies and the card players, then all players who get the surprise round get it. If they all decide to not call attention to themselves, then initiative is not warranted, and all players go back into free actions.

These are not "enemies," or a fight like a video game in an RPG. They are living breathing people with motivations and desires, just like you. If the whole of you collectively decide that initiative is not warranted (and yes, this can be done when someone is not aware that initiative has been rolled) then whatever result rolled for the first initiative is discarded once all players do nothing. A new initiative muster be rolled once true combat is actually started.

At least, that's how i'd rule it.

[Seppo87]

These are not "enemies," or a fight like a video game in an RPG. They are living breathing people with motivations and desires, just like you. If the whole of you collectively decide that initiative is not warranted (and yes, this can be done when someone is not aware that initiative has been rolled) then whatever result rolled for the first initiative is discarded once all players do nothing. A new initiative muster be rolled once true combat is actually started.

At least, that's how i'd rule it.

Me too. I would rule it like that as well.

Unfortunately the existing rules don't support the bolded part of your post, as far as I know.
It seems that, by following the rules, one would have to treat the fight like a "video game in an rpg" to use your words, despite knowing it's not.

Can you point to the existing rules that support your (our) point of view?

[Florian]

Can you define "actual combat" within existing rules?

When the actual combat rules are needed to find out in which order certain things are going to happen.
As usual, things are behaving like they would in the real world und less specified otherwise. So you´re invisible in a room with two guys playing cards, enjoy the show. At that point, there´s no indication that anything would be needed for initiating the combat rules.

That would change, for example, if you intended to use Assassinate on one of them and announce that to the GM, as that action is based on combat rules.

Reread this carefully:

How Combat Works
Combat is cyclical; everybody acts in turn in a regular cycle of rounds. Combat follows this sequence:

1. When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.

2. Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.

3. After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to being the first normal round of combat.

4. Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).

5. When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 4 and 5 repeat until combat ends.

Notice the interaction between initiative being rolled first for all participants, placing them on the initiative track, then follows awareness then comes the Surprise Round.

[Seppo87]

So you´re invisible in a room with two guys playing cards, enjoy the show. At that point, there´s no indication that anything would be needed for initiating the combat rules.

That would change, for example, if you intended to use Assassinate on one of them and announce that to the GM, as that action is based on combat rules.

Reread this carefully:
[...]

So, what actions count sepcifically as initiating combat, and what actions do not?

Some examples:

1) Studying a victim for a Death Attack (this requires counting rounds)
1.b) ... and then deciding to not use the death attack at all at the end of the last round of study and stay hidden some more time instead
-Is initiative rolled when I start studying the victim?
-Do I still get a surprise round after studying the victim? What in the case of 1.b?

2) Tying the shoelace of the guard to the leg of the table trying to avoid detection
2.b) ... and I get detected
2.c) ...and I DON'T get detected, and decide to just stay there, hidden, for some more time, ready to laugh when he tries to walk
-Do I need to use "a standard action" to try that and so, is it a Surprise Round? Is it still a surprise round if I don't get detected?

3) I attack...
3.b) And I miss ... throwing an Invisibile, Silent (as per the spell) rock. And that rock goes out of the window. And I have Greater Invisibility.
So even after the attack they're still not aware of me.
-What happens to the initiative? What happens to the surprise round? Have they "acted" ?


****************
I honestly do not believe existing rules can manage these situation while producing consistent outcomes.

[Nibbens]

Me too. I would rule it like that as well.

Unfortunately the existing rules don't support the bolded part of your post, as far as I know.
It seems that, by following the rules, one would have to treat the fight like a "video game in an rpg" to use your words, despite knowing it's not.

Can you point to the existing rules that support your (our) point of view?

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Initiative)

The term "combatant" does not necessarily mean "individuals aware of ensuing battle" it could also mean "individuals about to get pulled into battle which is about to happen." So therefore, they are involved wether they know it or not. (And until a barbarian decides to attack that pesky tree over there, all combatants (even the tree) are considered both in and out of combat at all times.

Once again, this reminds me of the most confusing of d&d creatures:

Cat, Schrodinger's CR ?
XP 100 or 0 depending on the viability of the cat.
N Tiny animal
Init +2; Senses: Maybe low-light vision maybe not, scent; Perception +5
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 12 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 3 (1d8–1) (or it's already dead in the box)
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1

Box defense: Characters attacking Schrodinger's cat must break through it's box first.

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +4 (1d2–4), bite +4 (1d3–4) - Always dealing 0 damage unless they aren't.
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 3, Dex 15, Con 8, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7 - only if it's actually alive.
Base Atk +0; CMB +0; CMD 6 (10 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon Finesse
Skills Climb +6, Perception +5, Stealth +14; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +8 stealth... or not.

SPECIAL ABILITIES

Familiar

The master of a cat familiar gains a +3 bonus on Stealth checks and -3 to Fortitude saves vs Poison

Box Defense

All Schrodinger's Cats come in a box. This box can be of any material, hardness and thickness the DM see's fit. Players must break through the box to harm whatever potential cat (viable or unviable) that inhabits the box.

ECOLOGY
Environment temperate and hot plains or urban or dead or alive in a box.
Organization solitary, or not alive at all.
Treasure none

Cats typically weigh 5–15 pounds when fully grown. or roughly 20-30 pounds depending on what the box is made out of.

I think the hair is split really thinly here with a RAW interpretation. lol.

[Red Fel]

In my mind, it works like this.

Are you performing a combat action? That is, are you attacking someone, performing a combat maneuver, etc?

Have you done something to cause someone else to perform a combat action? For example, if you started to cast a spell, did somebody attack you?

If so, roll initiative. You are now in combat, and rounds count. If your enemies can't act in the surprise round, then you get to precede them irrespective of their rolls. Proceed.

If not, we're not in combat. Make your skill checks, etc., as usual.

In the scenario you propose, you are stealthing and have remained undetected. There is no surprise round unless you say, "I attack," or similar. There is simply you stealthing, and them failing to make their Perception checks.

Combat doesn't start simply because you're in proximity to NPCs. First of all, this isn't a video game with automatically hostile mobs with an aggro radius. Second, if you were in combat simply by proximity to an NPC, you would be in constant combat while in a town or city. If you went to sleep in an inn, everyone in the building would get AoOs on you every six seconds. They don't, because proximity alone does not create combat - combat does.

You are presenting this under the banner of "Combat has started because I am in proximity to them." You're asking us to prove that it has not. Why don't you prove that it has?

[DarkSoul]

1) Studying a victim for a Death Attack (this requires counting rounds)
1.b) ... and then deciding to not use the death attack at all at the end of the last round of study and stay hidden some more time instead
-Is initiative rolled when I start studying the victim?
-Do I still get a surprise round after studying the victim? What in the case of 1.b?
Combat doesn't start until you attack, assuming no one else knows you're there. Because no one else involved in the encounter has a reason to initiate combat, the timing falls to you. When you make your death attack, that's your surprise round.


2) Tying the shoelace of the guard to the leg of the table trying to avoid detection
2.b) ... and I get detected
2.c) ...and I DON'T get detected, and decide to just stay there, hidden, for some more time, ready to laugh when he tries to walk
-Do I need to use "a standard action" to try that and so, is it a Surprise Round? Is it still a surprise round if I don't get detected?
If you're detected, it will be up to the DM to decide if the attempt counted as your surprise round or not. If not, then you get a surprise action and your opponents do not. If you're not detected, the bolded text above applies.


3) I attack...
3.b) And I miss ... throwing an Invisibile, Silent (as per the spell) rock. And that rock goes out of the window. And I have Greater Invisibility.
So even after the attack they're still not aware of me.
-What happens to the initiative? What happens to the surprise round? Have they "acted" ?
Again, see answer 1.

Honestly, you're thinking too hard about this. If no one has a reason or desire to take offensive actions, then there's no combat at the moment. When someone does take an offensive action, such as successfully attacking or being detected during the shoelace-tying, then roll initiative.

[Barbarian Horde]

Catching your enemy unaware during an "action" is considered a surprise action. The initiative will start as soon as the "action" is over. This action can be casting a spell, melee attack, ranged attack.

For example if the wizard in the party get hits by a fireball or a sword during this "surprise action" the wizard cannot use celerity to dodge because they were unaware and are considered flat footed.


It's only until you or your enemy are aware that something is there and are now vigilant to the surroundings that the "surprise round" is now over.

[Kyberwulf]

Since you are being deliberately obtuse. I would rule, that you initiated a surprise round and spent it waiting. We would roll initiative, and if they automatically get to know you are around. So depending on where you end up on that roll. It could be bad for you.

In game this would be represented as the ! on the guard and they know someone is around.

[Seppo87]

Since you are being deliberately obtuse. I would rule, that you initiated a surprise round and spent it waiting. We would roll initiative, and if they automatically get to know you are around. So depending on where you end up on that roll. It could be bad for you.

In game this would be represented as the ! on the guard and they know someone is around.

Cool story bro.

[KillianHawkeye]

Basically, there is no reason to roll initiative if neither side is initiating anything. You get a surprise round only if and when you decide to initiate hostilities amongst people who are unaware of you.

[upho]

You are presenting this under the banner of "Combat has started because I am in proximity to them." You're asking us to prove that it has not. Why don't you prove that it has?Exactly this. Can you show us where in the rules it says you should roll initiative in the situation you described?

Otherwise, I suggest you use the appropriate generally accepted definition of the noun "combat" (my emphasis):

1. Military. active, armed fighting with enemy forces.

2. a fight, struggle, or controversy, as between two persons, teams, or ideas. (http://www.dictionary.com/browse/combat)

And for game purposes, it's actually even more simple: in order to have combat you must have at least two potential combatants present, and one of them must have initiated an action with the intent of causing the other combatant direct harm, or an action which will provoke such a violent action in response. Which in turn triggers an initiative roll for all potential combatants capable of taking actions important enough to keep track of.

(So yes, in your case you could cast for example a silent summoning spell without the casting itself necessarily triggering an initiative roll (though the summoned creature surely will as soon as the card players become aware of them). If you need more precise definitions of the things which could trigger an initiative roll in your case, I'd recommend you take a look at the kind of actions which count as offensive, for example described in the invisibility spell.)

[Treblain]

3) I attack...
3.b) And I miss ... throwing an Invisibile, Silent (as per the spell) rock. And that rock goes out of the window. And I have Greater Invisibility.
So even after the attack they're still not aware of me.
-What happens to the initiative? What happens to the surprise round? Have they "acted" ?

There are no rules that would determine that the rock goes out the window on a miss, so you can't make that a consistent part of your hypothetical. The DM decides what impact on the game world a missed attack has, if any. If the DM says the 'miss' constituted the rock bouncing off the enemy's armor harmlessly, then the enemies are alerted and that was your surprise round. The DM might be generous and say your attack had no detectable element, but that is not necessarily a more likely outcome than the alternative, because it's purely up to their discretion.

[Barbarian Horde]

Actually I think it would still be a surprise round after said rock was thrown. Assuming your invisible. I still believe you'll have the opportunity to have a surprise round. So now unless your enemy has some sort of perceived observation as to why or how said window was broken, you'll find this out when you DM says "roll initiative."

[KillianHawkeye]

Actually I think it would still be a surprise round after said rock was thrown. Assuming your invisible. I still believe you'll have the opportunity to have a surprise round. So now unless your enemy has some sort of perceived observation as to why or how said window was broken, you'll find this out when you DM says "roll initiative."

Yeah, if you say you're going to attack in this situation, you roll initiative and get a surprise round for it. If, in the very unlikely situation that your attack is undetectable, misses, and has no noticeable effect on the opponent, then combat basically fails to start at all and ends before it really begins. You can try to start combat again, and will get another surprise round if you are still undetected. Maybe try something more effective than throwing a silent, invisible rock this time?

Actually though, the silence spell has a radius. Even if you miss the target, they're probably going to notice when all sound becomes briefly muted, although it won't necessarily prevent them from getting surprised if they still can't detect you.

[Segev]

For what it's worth, "rounds" have a default time of "six seconds." So if you need to do something that tracks "rounds" when not in combat, you can do it by tracking seconds in packets of six, instead. So your death attack takes 6x(#rounds) in seconds to study.

[Barbarian Horde]

This is what I use just for that. At least when i'm at the table. :p http://www.geisheker.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/egg-timer.jpg