Mammon's latest scheme ( Fiendish codex ): pauperty = evil ?

[Conradine]

MAMMON’S LATEST SCHEME
The ascension of his ex-lover Glasya to archduke status has
frightened Mammon into focusing his plotting beyond Baator.
He has recently begun whipping his minions into frenzied activity
to advance his new master plan.
Mammon’s devils have begun to wage economic warfare
on the unsuspecting citadels of good throughout the Material
Plane. Since lust for money is the root of all evil, Mammon
believes that the best way to corrupt mortal souls is to collapse
the economies of safe and prosperous nations. If all goes according
to his plan, the accompanying despair and desperation
should send millions of souls to the torture chambers of Minauros,
thereby bolstering Mammon’s power base. To that end,
his devils are hard at work sabotaging industries, fomenting
unrest, and prompting the wealthy to abandon works of charity
in dozens of major nations. As a result of this massive outflow
of servitors, his cities seem eerily depopulated.
Every devil in Minauros yearns to find a new, ripe target for
destabilization. Thus, mortal wanderers who can provide worthwhile
intelligence to this end might be spared the torments of
Hell, at least temporarily.


Honestly, I can't understand that reasoning. Is Mammon assuming that the poor are evil for craving the resources they need to survive? Or that becoming poor make people evil? And LAWFUL evil, specifically?

Personally, I think that extreme pauperty can lead someone to ruthless and even criminal behiavour ( although it generates as often situation of solidarity and mutual help ), but it's Neutral Evil behiavour ( "do whatever you need to survive" ) or Chaotic Evil behiavour ( "screw the society, every one for himself" ) , not Lawful Evil behiavour. A Lawful Evil character find advantages in rules and laws; destitutes have no reason to abide the very same laws that were used to reduce - and keep - them in pauperty.

A person that become destitute due unjust laws could still be Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good ( " law is a good thing, although these specific laws are corrupt" ). But Lawful Evil, what does it means? "Oh, I'm so happy to be destitute and / or slave due overtaxation and legal loopholes! " ?

[hamishspence]

The idea may be more "smashed economies are the perfect environment for dictatorships to come into being"


With the despair and desperation leading to people supporting extreme LE policies, and thus becoming LE themselves over time.

[khadgar567]

The idea may be more "smashed economies are the perfect environment for dictatorships to come into being"


With the despair and desperation leading to people supporting extreme LE policies, and thus becoming LE themselves over time.
yep break the economy and put uncle scrooge to white house that his plan oly thing change his his uncle scrooge is even more greedy

[Red Fel]

Honestly, I can't understand that reasoning. Is Mammon assuming that the poor are evil for craving the resources they need to survive? Or that becoming poor make people evil? And LAWFUL evil, specifically?

First of all, Mammon is an idiot. There's a reason he's not the Big Cheese of the Nine. Second...


The idea may be more "smashed economies are the perfect environment for dictatorships to come into being"


With the despair and desperation leading to people supporting extreme LE policies, and thus becoming LE themselves over time.

This.

Let me paint you a picture. The economy collapses. Those in power - frequently benevolent rulers, or stagnant dynasties, because tyrannies don't let little things like destitution ruin them - are thrust out. Nations crumble. Crime explodes. People panic, riot in the streets. Homes are unsafe. Businesses close, or are robbed blind.

And along comes safety, in the form of an iron fist. A promise of stability. A guarantee of prosperity. Submit to authority, and you will be protected. Surrender your independence - after all, what has it gotten you? - and you will know order and safety. Uprisings are promptly subdued by brutal military force. Demolished towns are replaced with sturdy military outposts. Out of the ruined nations rise new, strong empires. And each empire, in turn, knowing that its resources are limited, looks to its neighbors with a greedy eye. They know two things - ruthless oppressive force within, and militaristic conquest without. The former creates order from the chaotic despair that preceded it; the latter ensures growth and prosperity in a world where these are in short supply.

Submit to your dictators. You shall have bread to eat, a home in which to live, and a productive job to fill your days. Under our banner, our nation will know success and wealth once more. An iron fist will lead you out of the darkness of poverty and chaos, and into a bright, glorious, red-tinged future.

[Florian]

As can be magnificently seen on Golarion with the Empire of Cheliax. Civil turmoil to the point where submitting to the devil-bound house of Thrune actually looked like a good idea.
(And guess what? Biggest and most stable empire in that part of the setting. It works)

[Flickerdart]

It's easy to be Good when life is good. A prosperous merchant will gladly lower prices for people in need, throw a coin to the beggar, etc.

Meanwhile, in the neighbouring county, a cultist of Mammon poisoned a village's cows. Without their livelihood, the villagers turns to banditry. They raid the merchant's caravan. The merchant is no longer prosperous. He covets the wealth he had before. He is willing to raise prices, mix in lower-quality goods, cut deals with corrupt officials. The beggar has no coin, the poor have no bread. They resort to stealing and violence to survive.

You don't need to crank the needle from 0 to lol grimdark dictatorship in order to have evil in the world.

[Conradine]

First of all, Mammon is an idiot. There's a reason he's not the Big Cheese of the Nine. Second...


So...

do you think that it's not a good plan? Or it is?

[Red Fel]

So...

do you think that it's not a good plan? Or it is?

I think that it's simplistic and leaves far too much to chance. If you have some champions on the ground ready to seize the opportunity, it's great. The problem is that doing so requires a combination of political leadership, oratory talent, and military acumen - and these aren't really Mammon's wheelhouse. He's the "money makes the world go 'round" guy. You want a Hextor for this sort of thing. And the problem is that if you get a Hextor running this show, the world doesn't so much belong to the Hells as it does to your designated Hextor.

And I think that Mammon is an idiot. A useful idiot with the kernels of a good idea or two, but an idiot nonetheless.

[Honest Tiefling]

So...

do you think that it's not a good plan? Or it is?

In my less evil opinion, causing economical strife isn't a plan when it comes to something as powerful, as deadly, as scheming, or as long-lived as a Devil. It's like, step one at best. You've got a great situation to cause people to despair or sell children to save the others, but you need to DO something with it. You can't just toss that in and expect it to work on its own, that's just lazy.

You also have the additional problem that economical collapse tends to lead to the collapse of basic services, so you need people to want money as opposed to wanting you know, those odd boils to go away or to get food. Does Mammon get power from general greed or just from money? I forget.

If ruining the economy was all it took for the devils to win, you'd think there would be far more gods of trade...

[Red Fel]

In my less evil opinion, causing economical strife isn't a plan when it comes to something as powerful, as deadly, as scheming, or as long-lived as a Devil. It's like, step one at best. You've got a great situation to cause people to despair or sell children to save the others, but you need to DO something with it. You can't just toss that in and expect it to work on its own, that's just lazy.

You also have the additional problem that economical collapse tends to lead to the collapse of basic services, so you need people to want money as opposed to wanting you know, those odd boils to go away or to get food. Does Mammon get power from general greed or just from money? I forget.

If ruining the economy was all it took for the devils to win, you'd think there would be far more gods of trade...

All of this. Not to mention the fact that, and I can't emphasize this enough, the immediate outcome of an economic collapse is chaos. Small-c chaos, but that serves big-C Chaos, to which big-L Lawfuls (like LE Devils) are ostensibly opposed. Simply inciting the collapse, as HT points out, is at best a single step in a larger plan, and moreover, it's a step that serves CE more than LE. Sure, in the long run, the chaos will make LE a more palatable alternative (my favorite kind of alternative), but in the short run, CE will run roughshod over everything. So unless LE is prepared to step in promptly and take control by force - again, not Mammon's area of expertise - it will be a net loss for the Hells.

Also, the thing about greed and the loss of the economy, Mammon's plan being self-defeating, and Mammon generally being an idiot.

[Honest Tiefling]

Actually, I was trying to make the point that if you ruin everything, someone else might step in and take your desperate people away from you. If the canal system breaks and you have an outbreak of the plague, no one is going to care about money as they would like to stop dying, thanks. There would be plenty of evil (or good, or neutral) powers who will swoop in and try to fix things as suits their plan.

[Buufreak]

Alright, so I am somewhat loving the idea of global destruction of all civilization from the inside, with the goal of eventual total takeover with the use of dictatorship. The problem being, as you have all pointed out, it is only step one listed here, and Mammon is very short sighted. So what would be the full process, from start to finish? I'm looking at the eventual inoculation of disguised devils as the rulers, but what about everything in between?

[Flickerdart]

Step 1: Ruin everything.

Step 2: Ruin attempts to fix anything.

Step 3: Don't ruin your guys' attempts to fix things (this is important).

[khadgar567]

Step 1: Ruin everything.

Step 2: Ruin attempts to fix anything.

Step 3: Don't ruin your guys' attempts to fix things (this is important).
step 4 mind rape the competition away and enjoy your self

[Gildedragon]

A better way to incite greed and wealth gluttony is to a) increase prosperity and b) increase the gap between the poor and rich... while preventing a proletariat revolution, which is tricky long term.
Chaos and economic destabilizing isn't greed's game. Economic stability to the point gold is a heavy chain around the neck of the world... That is greed's game. Lending money to make things work and have everyone beholden to one; allowing peasants to dream themselves of living as kings (but being ever unable to do so) and thus living beyond their means; kinds and nobles being afraid of the common folk attaining the fruit of their wealth.
Greed plays the game to make society one in which a person's value as a person is their net gp worth.
After all greed and envy are the dark forms of ambition.

Far easier to invent insidious marketing, and make folk think things like Love, Happiness, Moral Rectitude, etc are for sale

[Red Fel]

Step 1: Ruin everything.

Step 2: Ruin attempts to fix anything.

Step 3: Don't ruin your guys' attempts to fix things (this is important).

Pretty much this.

The easiest way to seize power is for people to want you to seize power. The easiest way to do that is steps 1 and 2, above. Make sure everything sucks, and make sure nobody can fix it.

Then offer to fix it. When people are starved for stability, they'll agree to just about everything.

The thing is, step 1 can be as simple as starting a war, or ruining an economy. But step 2 requires the information to know who is trying to fix things, and how, and where, and the resources and manpower to stop them. Similarly, step 3 requires the resources and manpower to then fix things.

As a bonus, while step 2 has the difficult burden of being carried out in all places at all times, step 3 only has to succeed in one place. Once you've secured a despotic foothold, your resources self-replicate. When you crush dissident forces, you take their resources; when you enslave and dominate the citizens, your manpower increases.

[Honest Tiefling]

A better way to incite greed and wealth gluttony is to a) increase prosperity and b) increase the gap between the poor and rich... while preventing a proletariat revolution, which is tricky long term.

And they already have a culture steeped in wealth and opulence, so bonus points! No having to artificially introduce that in. One plan could be to turn a society where the noble elite control the wealth into one where the WORTHY control the money...Still the same tune, but you might get a few worthy converts at the top of things. And hopefully they can manage things well enough on their own without constantly banging their cousins.

[Flickerdart]

Similarly, step 3 requires the resources and manpower to then fix things.
A clever usurper enacts step 1 in a reversible fashion. For example, you can engineer a crisis by mind-controlling dragons to kidnap the world's supply of princesses. Resolving this crisis is as easy as "slaying" your minions, after all the world's knights fail to do so.


As a bonus, while step 2 has the difficult burden of being carried out in all places at all times, step 3 only has to succeed in one place. Once you've secured a despotic foothold, your resources self-replicate.
Step 2 doesn't need to happen at all times, nor do you need special information to enact it. The problem you create should be complex enough that a solution must emerge gradually; it will become common knowledge that some guys somewhere have finally gotten a handle on this whole "total collapse" thing and then you can go over there and knock 'em over. This is the sort of thing where the difference between winning and a dagger in the back as the consolation prize is measured in years.