Class and Level Geekery II

[Felistor]

It occurs to me that Improved Feint would be a good feat for Nale, allowing him to use his Sneak Attack ability more effectively in combat. It would also be compatible with the hypothesis that he has Improved Disarm, and he should have three Fighter bonus feats if he's been advancing his class levels evenly.

Any thoughts on this from the class & level geeks?

My thought is that yeah, it would be a great feat for Nale (I'm sure he already has plenty of ranks in bluff), but that doesn't mean Nale would have taken it.
He did multiclass as a fighter / rogue / sorcerer specializing in enchantment spells after all.

[Wrecan]

How are you guys interpreting the Unholy Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) spell?
We interpret it to mean that Belkar is evil and the others are not.

On an unrelated note, I've added Endurance to the list of Roy's Feats, since he sleeps in armor (#162), and not be fatigued.

[Vargtass]

Does Haley have the Improved Unarmed Attack feat? Because she does not provoke attacks of opportunity making her sneak attacks? Or is this because the victims are surprised or at least flat-footed?

[Wrecan]

I think it's, so far, been because they were surprised/flat-footed.

[Amon Star]

Just noticed, the new widescreen crystal ball isn't listed under :xykon:'s items.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html

[hitogoroshi]

Haven't read the whole thread, but what about Durkon's golden tankard? (I'd assume he'd need a bag of holding, too.)

[Wrecan]

It's not clear Durkon took that with him. It seemed to me that Durkon was more interested in the lager than the gold. I guess he just thinks lager tastes best when drunk from a gold mug.

If the mug shows up again, I'll definitely add it to the list.

[Vargtass]

Can we glean something on Thog's strength from the last strip (breaking puny prison in barbarian rage)? Or conclude something on his barbarien level from the duration of his rage, and that he seemed exhausted (or is it fatigued?) afterwards?

[Zeb The Troll]

Can we glean something on Thog's strength from the last strip (breaking puny prison in barbarian rage)?
Nothing more than is already assumed based on min/maxing a half-orc fighter/barbarian. (We can reasonably conclude +2 from racial bonuses and +3 from level gains added to whatever he bought/rolled at creation.)


Or conclude something on his barbarien level from the duration of his rage, and that he seemed exhausted (or is it fatigued?) afterwards?
Only that he is less than level 19, since a barbarian doesn't get Tireless Rage until level 17 Bar and we know he took exactly two levels in Fighter (because the third level is dumb). As for the duration of his rage, there isn't really much to go on to tell us how many rounds passed and that's based on his raged Con, not his level, anyway.

[Amon Star]

Here's a question. Would you need Profession (Gardener) to be quite good at gardening, or Diplomacy to have impeccable table manners?

[Vargtass]

I would say that for table manners, it would be sufficent to have a high CHA score in general, or simply decide that your character has impeccable table manners. It is something anyone can have, regardless of stats, though it is more likely to find in a high-charisma person. For V, I think it is a joke... or the second option.

On gardening - yes, but for V I wouldn't treat this as evidence, rather as sarcarm...

[Amon Star]

Arr, I see you got the reference.

[Miles Invictus]

Nitpick: How can Elan be level 12?

In #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), his Bard Song explicitly adds +1 to damage, so at that point he could not have been higher than level seven. (At eight, it adds +2 to damage). After this instance, we've seen the party gain levels once (the level gain in the dungeon was before #34). So unless he's been gaining levels off-panel, he can't be any higher than eight.

[Krimm_Blackleaf]

I think they must have been gaining levels off panel. There's alot that goes on that we don't see.

[Mathias_Tanavar]

Elans new class needs to be added

[Hivemind Ghost]

Has he technically taken it yet?

I don't think he actually has...

[rwald]

I would bet he has taken a level in this class as of the time he meets up with Haley, Sabine, and Nale, but it seems prudent to not make any assumptions until the recap finishes.1

[Zeb The Troll]

Nitpick: How can Elan be level 12?

In #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), his Bard Song explicitly adds +1 to damage, so at that point he could not have been higher than level seven. (At eight, it adds +2 to damage). After this instance, we've seen the party gain levels once (the level gain in the dungeon was before #34). So unless he's been gaining levels off-panel, he can't be any higher than eight.
I think this might just be a rare example of inconsistency in the story. If memory serves there's plenty of other indication that he's higher level than 8th.

[Wrecan]

Well, it may be that Elan has enough XP for 12th level, but just has not selected any of his levels after 8th, which is why he has an unassigned level available to assign to his new PrC. Heck, he might have 4 unassigned levels to put to his new PrC.

Is that even legal?

[Zeb The Troll]

The Giant's admission that Elan will be gaining a new homebrew PrC really puts a kink into things, doesn't it? Maybe there should be a Dashing Swordsman thread to figure out what the details of the new class are?

[Zuzuzu]

Well, the most worrying thing about this PrC is that if Elan is already lvl12, he won't be able to finish the PrC pre-epic. It kinda offends the optimizer's mentality of mine :). If this PrC got, say, 3/4 BAB with spellcasting and/or bardic music advancement, then there was absolutely no reason to stay in pure bard for so long.

[DeathQuaker]

Here's a question. Would you need Profession (Gardener) to be quite good at gardening, or Diplomacy to have impeccable table manners?

Not that it's important, but since we are picking at insignificant details, I'd say that sufficient ranks in Knowledge: Nature would provide a synergy bonus to all Gardening efforts and that Knowledge: Nobility would provide a synergy bonus to table manners (since you generally don't get complex table settings unless you are eating a multiple course meal in a wealthy setting).

[Zeb The Troll]

Well, the most worrying thing about this PrC is that if Elan is already lvl12, he won't be able to finish the PrC pre-epic. It kinda offends the optimizer's mentality of mine :). If this PrC got, say, 3/4 BAB with spellcasting and/or bardic music advancement, then there was absolutely no reason to stay in pure bard for so long.
A.) Maybe it's not a 10 level PrC.
B.) Elan didn't know about it before now.
C.) Elan thought PrC's were only for munchkins.

[Wooter]

Riddle me this, Zeb: If the PrC was good for less than ten levels, how could Julio have ten levels in it?

[HomerHT]

Well, it may be that Elan has enough XP for 12th level, but just has not selected any of his levels after 8th, which is why he has an unassigned level available to assign to his new PrC. Heck, he might have 4 unassigned levels to put to his new PrC.

Is that even legal?

He might be able to trade out his 12th level of bard to become a Bard11/DS1--if the DM allows him, of course :-P. But the Order has gone through a good few encounters since their last believed level up (the dragon?). The order could easily be up to 13 by now. Elan's probably getting some kind of experience for escaping jail and the other various things he's done, so he could be level 13 and on par with everyone else.

[Amon Star]

Here's a thought. How do we know that the party are all the same level? As Miles Invictus said, :elan:'s Bard Song was only at 7th level proficience in "Maths is Fun". However, :haley: is 12th now, using the evidence from "Up a Level, Down a Level" and :vaarsuvius is likely the same. Also, they all started adventuring separately before forming the OotS. Therefore, Occum's Razor, they're not all the same level.


Not that it's important, but since we are picking at insignificant details, I'd say that sufficient ranks in Knowledge: Nature would provide a synergy bonus to all Gardening efforts and that Knowledge: Nobility would provide a synergy bonus to table manners (since you generally don't get complex table settings unless you are eating a multiple course meal in a wealthy setting).

Good call. And as all Knowledges are in character for Wizards, :vaarsuvius: could very well have them both.

[Zeb The Troll]

Riddle me this, Zeb: If the PrC was good for less than ten levels, how could Julio have ten levels in it?
Errrrmmm, oops!

The other two points are still valid though.

[Devils_Advocate]

Nitpick: How can Elan be level 12?

In #34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), his Bard Song explicitly adds +1 to damage, so at that point he could not have been higher than level seven. (At eight, it adds +2 to damage). After this instance, we've seen the party gain levels once (the level gain in the dungeon was before #34). So unless he's been gaining levels off-panel, he can't be any higher than eight.
Given that that comic was *about the fact that the character's don't always get their bonuses right*, maybe we should hesitate to assume that Roy's statement was correct? I don't know that we should go crazy trying to make every piece of evidence fit, here, either. For example, V cast stinking cloud in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools despite having barred Conjuration. That half-ogre that Roy faced got one more AoO than he should have. The most obvious explanation in these cases is simple: Rich goofed. If you want to translate that into an in-comic explanation: the hypothetical GM and players goofed. Remember, this is a world which behaves like a game of D&D, which surely means that means that it does not perfectly follow the game rules 100% of the time. :smallwink: (You can reach your own conclusions on how this speaks to Belkar's Wisdom score.)

That said, we've never seen Elan do anything that would indicate he's as high-level as the other characters; the only evidence for that is that they're all PCs in the same game. It's not inconceivable that Elan's Hypothetical Player actually asked if he could make a lower-level character than everyone else so he could be even more lovably ineffectual. "Whee! I'm the whacky comic relief!"

Speaking of unused higher-level abilities, I notice that Belkars's Evasion didn't activate in the occasions that Haley's did, indicating a failded Ref save on his part. Combined with the evidence from DCF that Haley is a superior hider, might we suppose that Belkar's Dex is unusually low for his particular race/class combo? Maybe he prioritized Str and Con instead. A crazy thing to do with a dagger-wielding halfling in light armor, but remember, Belkar's Hypothetical Player is the one who decided that a Ranger doesn't need Wisdom.

[Wrecan]

I have updated Elan's sheet to reflect his new prestige class.

[Felistor]

[...]That half-ogre that Roy faced got one more AoO than he should have. [...] One too many or one too few? (I calculated three attacks of opportunity for that situation).

Other than this, I agree with your explanation. Furthermore it makes a lot of sense if Roy's Player (not playing a Bard after all) neglected to notice how Inspire Courage changed in the 3.5 update and therefore assumed that Elan was still only giving a +1 to damage (as he had done pre-update as well as pre-8th level).

[Felistor]

Regarding the issues with Elan possibly gaining a new level...

What do you think of the possibility that the OOTS DM just got a copy of Player's Handbook II and is allowing Elan (given the story elements just witnessed) to use the "Class Level Rebuilding" option on pages 197-198 of that book??

If this is the case, Elan doesn't actually need to gain experience for this side quest (although he may well do so anyway) -- he can trade out bard levels for levels in Dashing Swordsman (however many the DM allows), and we could see him use some of the higher level Dashing Swordsman class abilities right away in the upcoming Sabine/Nale encounter.

[Wrecan]

Updated to reflect Elan's spiffy new rapier!

[Krytha]

Updated to reflect Elan's spiffy new rapier!

And oh how spiffy it is. Makes you wonder if all the OotS are going to get item upgrades prior to the invasion... and wonder what kind of gear Julio Scoundrel has if he can toss +3 keen rapiers at random kids he meets in bars. +5 (by Armani) haha

[Vargtass]

From 392 we have confirmation that Elan has just gained 1 and only 1 level of Dashing Swordsman.

[Wrecan]

Good catch!

[Axl_Rose]

Oh god, what are you people saying, it all sounds so crazy to me...

lol

[Enlong]

Actually, I'd say Belkster is level 12 ranger, 1 Barb. In Rich's explanation of how the second OOTS VS Miko went, he mentioned his helth was low because "even with 1 D12 of Barbarian Hit points, it still can't make up for the 12 levels of low HD ranger."

[Angela Christine]

That said, we've never seen Elan do anything that would indicate he's as high-level as the other characters; the only evidence for that is that they're all PCs in the same game. It's not inconceivable that Elan's Hypothetical Player actually asked if he could make a lower-level character than everyone else so he could be even more lovably ineffectual. "Whee! I'm the whacky comic relief!"


But that wouldn't really work in the long term, would it? After the higher level players have gone up a few levels, the lower level players have usually caught up so that they are only one level behind the others.

Hmm, now that I think about it, that was how it worked in 2nd edition, but I've never actually looked at any of the books for 3 or 3.5, and the experience point tables haven't been released as part of the SRD. So if they've moved to a flat system (where each and every level cost, say, 10000 xp) then you could start 3 levels behind the rest of your party and stay there forever. At least as long as you avoided getting bonus roleplaying xp, and the other players didn't gimp themselves by spending a bunch of xp on making scrolls and stuff.

The experience point scaling was the only thing that made dual-classing in 2nd ed remotely feasible. If you wanted to play a mage but didn't want totally sucky hit points you could take a few levels of fighter first. With 3 levels of fighter you could get a decent amount of hit points, weapon specialization, and, if applicable, things like exceptional strength or bonus constitution hp. At that point you have 4000 experience points, and you dual class to mage. It would take an additional 10000 points to get to mage level 4, the point at which both your mage and fighter abilities would work. So at 14000 xp you are a level 4 mage/level 3 fighter. Your buddy who just started as a mage also has 14000 xp, and so is still just a level 4 mage, but without your three levels of fighter perks. The pure mage will always level 4000 points before the munchkin mage, but that becomes less and less significant as the levels go by. [/old codger rambling]

[Lord of the Helms]

Hmm, now that I think about it, that was how it worked in 2nd edition, but I've never actually looked at any of the books for 3 or 3.5, and the experience point tables haven't been released as part of the SRD. So if they've moved to a flat system (where each and every level cost, say, 10000 xp) then you could start 3 levels behind the rest of your party and stay there forever.

Unless they overhauled the system again for 3.5 (which I doubt), every level you gain costs 1000 XP more than the previous - 2nd level costs 1000 XP, 3rd level costs an additional 2000 XP (i.e. you need to have 3000 XP altogether), 4th level an additional 3000 etc. So yeah, lower-level players would catch up.



C.) Elan thought PrC's were only for munchkins.

That's the most important point imo. Elan really seems to be sort of an anti-powergamer (hence why he was no stronger than his brother, who is obviously a failed powergamer), the only reason why he even took this class was because he needs it to save Haley.

[Zeb The Troll]

Unless they overhauled the system again for 3.5 (which I doubt), every level you gain costs 1000 XP more than the previous - 2nd level costs 1000 XP, 3rd level costs an additional 2000 XP (i.e. you need to have 3000 XP altogether), 4th level an additional 3000 etc. So yeah, lower-level players would catch up.

((Level*Level)-Level)*500 = XP needed to attain this level.

For those who do it, this is a handy formula for making Excel-based character sheets.

[Amon Star]

Unless they overhauled the system again for 3.5 (which I doubt), every level you gain costs 1000 XP more than the previous - 2nd level costs 1000 XP, 3rd level costs an additional 2000 XP (i.e. you need to have 3000 XP altogether), 4th level an additional 3000 etc. So yeah, lower-level players would catch up.

There's one small change in 3.5. The amount of xp you earn is based on your personal level, not the overall character level. The xp is still divided based up based on number of characters. This way results in even quicker catch up for lower level characters.

[Wrecan]

Actually, I'd say Belkster is level 12 ranger, 1 Barb. In Rich's explanation of how the second OOTS VS Miko went, he mentioned his helth was low because "even with 1 D12 of Barbarian Hit points, it still can't make up for the 12 levels of low HD ranger."
That's not what he wrote. I'll quote (my emphasis added): "Even that last d12 HD can't make up for 11 levels of d8+Con."

[eilandesq]

#393 gives us new data on Nale's class distribution--he cast Suggestion, which is a 3rd level sorcerer spell and as such indicates that he is at least 6th level in that class, unless he cast it from a device somehow. Assuming he is 12th level (equivalent to the OotS best guess party level), that would indicate that he probably has a class breakdown of:

Sorcerer 6
Rogue 3
Fighter 3

Thus avoiding multiclassing XP penalties. However, it does raise the question of how he does so much damage with sneak attacks (one shotting a 6th level Warrior at full HP, one shotting Elan at full HP), and why he seemed to be better than Elan in combat (a Bard 12 has a BAB of +9, a Sor6/Ftr3/Rogue3 has a BAB of +8). Of course, it could be a reflection of attributes, feats, and Nale's +3 longsword--Elan beat Nale soundly when he obtained his own +3 weapon.

[Krytha]

Is it worth adding the -ish to Haley's chaotic good?

[Duke of URL]

Is it worth adding the -ish to Haley's chaotic good?

Nope, it's straight CG, confirmed by the cryptogram translation for #393.

[TheBlueDragon]

No, she said exactly that: "I'm Chaotic Good! Ish!"

[Amon Star]

#393 gives us new data on Nale's class distribution--he cast Suggestion, which is a 3rd level sorcerer spell and as such indicates that he is at least 6th level in that class, unless he cast it from a device somehow. Assuming he is 12th level (equivalent to the OotS best guess party level), that would indicate that he probably has a class breakdown of:

Sorcerer 6
Rogue 3
Fighter 3

Thus avoiding multiclassing XP penalties. However, it does raise the question of how he does so much damage with sneak attacks (one shotting a 6th level Warrior at full HP, one shotting Elan at full HP), and why he seemed to be better than Elan in combat (a Bard 12 has a BAB of +9, a Sor6/Ftr3/Rogue3 has a BAB of +8). Of course, it could be a reflection of attributes, feats, and Nale's +3 longsword--Elan beat Nale soundly when he obtained his own +3 weapon.

Is :nale: the sort of person that would take Fighter Level 3? It's a 'dead level' and :nale: comes across as a Munchkin to me.

[Crusher]

He might have taken a 3rd level in fighter, not because its a worthwhile level to take, but because he wants to keep his class levels all reasonably close and plans on taking level 4 before long.

[Alfryd]

Is it worth adding the -ish to Haley's chaotic good?
It's possible she isn't entirely certain of her alignment. It's certainly true she hasn't displayed many acts of outstanding benevolence we know of, and she has been known to behave relatively methodically now and then. I always kinda thunk of her as TN. Then again, she is desperately repressed.

Suggestion ...is a 3rd level sorcerer spell and as such indicates [Nale] is at least 6th level in that class...
Very true. The best he can realistically now get is +2d6 sneak attack, but I don't think his skewering Elan (or the guard) was intended to be strictly 'by-the-rules.'
Maybe they just had really poor con.

Is Nale the sort of person that would take Fighter Level 3? It's a 'dead level' and Nale comes across as a Munchkin to me.
As the man said, unless he's level 8 sorc or something similar, he'd pretty well have to at some point for XP's sake.

[Arteyu]

Well we learned a few things in todays comic.

1. It appears Thog has Improved Bull Rush, unless of course he was using a standard rush. If he does have the feat, it means he also has Power Attack and a minimum of 13 str.

2. Since Elan & Nale are identical, do you think it means they may have identical stats?

3. Nale cast Suggestion a 3rd level Sorceror spell, so he's at least a 6th level Sorc with 13 charisma.

4. Nale said Haley was "speaking" Infernal, this could mean he has Infernal as a known language, and thus a minimum of 12 int.

[Celisasu]

Well we learned a few things in todays comic.

1. It appears Thog has Improved Bull Rush, unless of course he was using a standard rush. If he does have the feat, it means he also has Power Attack and a minimum of 13 str.

2. Since Elan & Nale are identical, do you think it means they may have identical stats?

3. Nale cast Suggestion a 3rd level Sorceror spell, so he's at least a 6th level Sorc with 13 charisma.

4. Nale said Haley was "speaking" Infernal, this could mean he has Infernal as a known language, and thus a minimum of 12 int.


1. Was there ever any doubt about Thog having a high strength score?

2. Definately not. Nale obviously has higher Int than Elan although we could argue that they both have low Wis scores.

3. Yup.

4. Or he could just be bluffing and not know Infernal at all. Or he could know Infernal with a lower Int because he used skill points to pick up the language rather than starting with it.

[Sir_Norbert]

4. Nale said Haley was "speaking" Infernal, this could mean he has Infernal as a known language, and thus a minimum of 12 int.
But he was lying, so it means nothing at all.

[Amon Star]

He might have taken a 3rd level in fighter, not because its a worthwhile level to take, but because he wants to keep his class levels all reasonably close and plans on taking level 4 before long.

Very true, but if he favours his Sorcerer side then he could be a Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Sorcerer 7, assuming he's a 12th level character.

[Krytha]

Maybe Thog has bullrush because he can't remember the rules (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html)

[baerdith]

My take on Thog:

Thog: Male Half-Orc Bbn10/Ftr2; Medium Humanoid ; HD 10d12+30 (Barbarian), 2d10+6 (Fighter); hp 103; Init +3; Spd 40; AC 13; Atk +18 base melee, +15 base ranged; +21 (1d8+10, +3 Battleaxe); SQ: Darkvision (Ex); AL CN; SV Fort +13, Ref +6, Will +0; STR 23, DEX 17, CON 17, INT 5, WIS 5, CHA 3.
Possessions: Rocket Skates
Weapons: +3 Greataxe.
Skills: Intimidate+6, Ride+4.
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical: Greataxe, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Focus: Greataxe.

[Wolfie_1066]

yes well this was a great discription...the only problem is you forgot Wish in V's repwituare although she cant cast it she does apparently have it http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html and maybe a couple others i havent looked :smalltongue:

[Wrecan]

V wasn't even looking at the spellbook. At that point, V was just calling out ridiculously overpowered spells to see if Zz'dtri had any interest in trading. I don't think that's evidence of V actually possessing Wish or Time Stop.

[riffin]

i say belkar has between 7 and 9 wisdom. you need 10 wisdom to cast ranger magic.well, i agree with amillion others

[riffin]

i dont know how to quote, bear with me. but, thog uses a greataxe, not battleaxe

[Wolfie_1066]

oh well...guess im just being stupid...anyway on to another correction its kind of stupid to say but oh well :smalltongue: V's a high elf this is being kind of overly spesific but its true

[Wrecan]

Where does it say V is a high elf?

[Amon Star]

Where does it say V is a high elf?

Origins book. It's what :vaarsuvius: writes for his/her race on his/her application form when joining :roy:'s mission.

However, correct me if I'm wrong, High Elves are the standard PHB elves.

[Wrecan]

Thog's possession should be updated. Scratch one +3 axe and add one leprechaun outfit.

[fangthane]

i say belkar has between 7 and 9 wisdom. you need 10 wisdom to cast ranger magic.well, i agree with amillion others
Actually, you need 11 wisdom to cast ranger magic. You need 10 to cast druidic or clerical magic, because those two classes receive level 0 spells (orisons); rangers, on the other hand, do not. The general rule is that any spellcasting class needs their spellcasting stat to be 10+spell level to cast, which is 0 for orisons and 1 for rangers.

And while the Giant obviously reserves the right to break the rules as he sees fit, according to the RAW Belkar would need a 10 wisdom; not enough to cast or prepare anything on its own, but enough to cast a 4th level spell (such as, say, a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds) when he's the recipient of Owl's Wisdom. Based on V's tendency to fill the "blaster mage" stereotype, I doubt s/he paid enough attention to buffs to get the superior (but random) 3.0 version house-ruled as Zz'dtri did with Fly.

[Arteyu]

4. Or he could just be bluffing and not know Infernal at all. Or he could know Infernal with a lower Int because he used skill points to pick up the language rather than starting with it.

There's no reason to bluff about knowing Infernal and it may be how he found out about Sabine in the first place, unless of course on of the books states otherwise.

[Jaltum]

...what?

There's every reason to bluff about speaking Infernal, because it's the backbone of his entire lie.

He might speak Infernal, he might not, but this lie doesn't give us any information about it, because if he didn't speak Infernal, he would have to pretend he does in order to claim he recognizes Haley speaking it.

[Demented]

We at least know he doesn't speak Gnoll or Ignan, but that's a drop in an ocean of languages.

[GoldenKitsune]

If I could, I'd like to suggest :redcloak: 's other domain as Death. We've seen him use Animate Dead (on the silver dragon), Slay Living (on the hobgoblin "leader"), and Destruction (on Miko); all of which are Death domain spells.

Admittedly though, we won't know for sure unless he uses Wail of the Banshee and I don't think he can cast that high.

[Alamankarazieff]

Just re-reading it, and we have a further proof in #220 that Vaarsuvius is level 12. Fireball, level 3 spell, means 30 gp times caster level, and s/he charges 360gp. Plus, of course, the roaming charge.

About the question of their levels at the beginning, we see them sweat quite a bit against 4 ogres, which makes a CR 7, which is by the way also the CR of the Chimera.
We can reasonably assume that they were in this area. If they were around level 10 they wouldn't even have noticed them.

[Senko]

Haven't the time to read through this right now (will do so later so if this has been addressed then ignore it.) V cast disintigrate twice its a 6th level spell as of 3.5 meaning s/he has to be level 13 not twelve. Also V had wish to offer drow copyright infringer for fly so level may be as high as 17.

[Wrecan]

Haven't the time to read through this right now (will do so later so if this has been addressed then ignore it.) V cast disintigrate twice its a 6th level spell as of 3.5 meaning s/he has to be level 13 not twelve.
A 12th level wizard can cast two sixth level spells per day.

[Morty]

Haven't the time to read through this right now (will do so later so if this has been addressed then ignore it.) V cast disintigrate twice its a 6th level spell as of 3.5 meaning s/he has to be level 13 not twelve. Also V had wish to offer drow copyright infringer for fly so level may be as high as 17.

He doesn't have to be 17 level to have these spells scribe into spellbook. Besides, he might have been just making it up.

[Runolfr]

About the question of their levels at the beginning, we see them sweat quite a bit against 4 ogres, which makes a CR 7, which is by the way also the CR of the Chimera.
We can reasonably assume that they were in this area. If they were around level 10 they wouldn't even have noticed them.

Unless, of course, the DM added some character levels to the Ogres and some HD to the Chimera (which was clearly meant to be a returning villain, it had a name and everything) to make them more suitable opponents for a higher-level party.

[Mawhrin Skel]

A 12th level wizard can cast two sixth level spells per day.
Plus bonus spells for high Int - V has 18 Int.

Edit: Took me ages to find this... http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#tableAbilityModifiersandBonusSpells

[Wrecan]

Quite true.

[eilandesq]

Plus bonus spells for high Int - V has 18 Int.

It takes a 22 to get a bonus 6th level spell (30 for two bonus 6th level spells).

[Senko]

So it does I must have slipped a line. Still I find it odd that V would have spells 3 levels higher than she can cast in her book and I doubt she'd be making it up as she really wanted that spell still who knows.

[The_Werebear]

I would suggest that Nale is a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Rogue 5. That gives him a better sneak attack, as well as the moderate to poor combat ability he has shown.

[eilandesq]

I would suggest that Nale is a Fighter 1/Sorcerer 6/Rogue 5. That gives him a better sneak attack, as well as the moderate to poor combat ability he has shown.

He'd be eating an XP penalty with that build--a character as obsessed with power as Nale would never put up with that.

[The_Werebear]

He is a human. Any class is his favored class.

Two are within balance, and fighter is his favored so he can splash.

[Mawhrin Skel]

He is a human. Any class is his favored class.
For purposes of determining XP penalties for multiclassing, a humans highest level class is ignored - in the above example, Sorcerer. So take an XP hit he would.

[The_Werebear]

For purposes of determining XP penalties for multiclassing, a humans highest level class is ignored - in the above example, Sorcerer. So take an XP hit he would.

Hrm.. Been reading that wrong for a while. Oh well.

[Amon Star]

Still I find it odd that V would have spells 3 levels higher than she can cast in her book and I doubt she'd be making it up as she really wanted that spell still who knows.

I believe at that poine :vaarsuvius: was just saying spells at random out of frustration, as Zz'dtri wasn't willing to trade.

[Senko]

Ah that makes more sense thanks, lucky Zz'dtri didn't take her up on one of them.

[Amon Star]

Ah that makes more sense thanks, lucky Zz'dtri didn't take her up on one of them.

No problem. :smallsmile:

[eilandesq]

He is a human. Any class is his favored class.

Two are within balance, and fighter is his favored so he can splash.

Actually, the rule for humans as listed in the SRD is:


Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count.

So ignore sorcerer 6, and that would leave rogue 5 and fighter 1--resulting in an XP penalty. He'd need to be something like sorcerer6/rogue3/fighter 3 at 12th level to avoid the problem.

Update: Oops--didn't notice the later posts: didn't mean to pile on. :smallfrown:

[Nerd-o-rama]

We can add [Bigby's] Grasping Hand to Vaarsuvius's spells known.

[eilandesq]

We can add [Bigby's] Grasping Hand to Vaarsuvius's spells known.

Which would make V minimum 13th level, unless (s)he cast it from a device. This would imply that the party leveled recently--perhaps during the fight with the Linear Guild or the one with the roc--and explains why Elan--who was also doing things to earn XP during that time--had an uncommitted level to devote to Dashing Swordsman.

Rather convenient that V had Grasping Hand memorized--I would expect Delayed Blast Fireball or Prismatic Spray to be V's new toy: perhaps even both of those spells as V's 1 regular and 1 evocation bonus spell rather than a relatively non-violent evocation like that.

[Finwe]

Don't wizards get two normal spells/level, and then 1 bonus for specializing? So he'd be able to get prismatic spray, bigby's hand, AND delayed fireball, right? (Unless prismatic spray is in his barred schools. I can never remember what school the prismatic spells are).


Which would make V minimum 13th level, unless (s)he cast it from a device. This would imply that the party leveled recently--perhaps during the fight with the Linear Guild or the one with the roc--and explains why Elan--who was also doing things to earn XP during that time--had an uncommitted level to devote to Dashing Swordsman.

Rather convenient that V had Grasping Hand memorized--I would expect Delayed Blast Fireball or Prismatic Spray to be V's new toy: perhaps even both of those spells as V's 1 regular and 1 evocation bonus spell rather than a relatively non-violent evocation like that.

[Andvare]

Don't wizards get two normal spells/level, and then 1 bonus for specializing? So he'd be able to get prismatic spray, bigby's hand, AND delayed fireball, right? (Unless prismatic spray is in his barred schools. I can never remember what school the prismatic spells are).

Prismatic spray is evocation.
But as I read the rules, you don't get a special specialist spell at each level. But they do learn two spells each level, regardsless of specialization or not.

[skyclad]

couldn't he have written down these spells before actually beeing able to cast them?

[The_Werebear]

Doesn't say anything about needing to be able to cast the spell to copy it.

It is possible he picked up a few "rares" in the booster pack.

[Kalir]

Hooray, possible level up!

What does that grant everyone else now (assuming Belkar puts another level in barbarian)?

[Mawhrin Skel]

Rather convenient that V had Grasping Hand memorized--I would expect Delayed Blast Fireball or Prismatic Spray to be V's new toy: perhaps even both of those spells as V's 1 regular and 1 evocation bonus spell rather than a relatively non-violent evocation like that.
I consider having at least one of Bigby's spells to be very ... handy ... as they can effectively eliminate a powerful melee threat.

[Duke of URL]

You list:

:belkar:
Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other)

Good possibilities are:



Animal (equine) [Windstriker]
Elf [V]
Undead ["Stab undead!"]

[Amon Star]

You list:

:belkar:

Good possibilities are:



Animal (equine) [Windstriker]
Elf [V]
Undead ["Stab undead!"]


Undead is unlikely, as he complained that fighting them was no fun. I always thought that he would have Humanoids(Halflings) as a favoured enemy.

[Setra]

I thought his favored enemy was

Things that Exist (All).

Just kidding, but Halfling would be an interesting Enemy Choice, and I could see why he might have it.

They didn't let him join inthe Halfling Games :smalleek:

[Morty]

I think that he almost ceratinly has Humans as his Fav. Enemy, probably Reptilians(he hates kobolds), and probably Giants- he has sive complex, and 'they're making satisfying thump when they hit the ground'.

[Wrecan]

What does that grant everyone else now (assuming Belkar puts another level in barbarian)?

It has appeared that OOTS tends to level up simultaneously. However, as Belkar now suffers a multiclassing penalty, he may not yet have caught up to the others.

[Wrecan]

As for Belkar's third favored enemy, while Giant seems to be the most likely choice, I'm going to wait until we get something more concrete.

[Wrecan]

Given that V only memorized one Dispel Magic as a matter of course, it lends support to the theory that V has Improved Counterspell, and used it in the fight with Samantha (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html)

[eilandesq]

As for Belkar's third favored enemy, while Giant seems to be the most likely choice, I'm going to wait until we get something more concrete.

My guess is:

Human +6 (most likely humanoid opponent, explains how he was able to do so much damage to Miko)
Elf +2 (no evidence of this, really--but if he didn't have them as a favored enemy before he almost certainly picked it up after V. started ticking him off)
Goblin +2 (he fought a lot of them, and it would be useful to him)

He really did a lot of damage to the Chimera and the Hydra--he might have "magical beast" as one of his favored enemies (instead of, say, Elf--which he might not feel the need for the extra damage to kill, though it would be fun for him), which would also help him with killing Windstriker should the opportunity arise.

Edit: Misread the way in which bonuses to favored enemy increase--changed text accordingly.

[Demented]

He hates halflings, ogres, (smelly) humans and kobolds. Maybe goblins too.
That's five options, so chances are good that three of those are his favored enemies.

We can at least be certain that Undead are not a favored enemy.

[eilandesq]

I consider having at least one of Bigby's spells to be very ... handy ... as they can effectively eliminate a powerful melee threat.

Or more specifically, an excellent way to neutralize someone who has sworn to kill V--such as the very same homicidal halfling currently dangling from said Hand.

Good point.

[Wrecan]

Updated to add a link for V's use of the Hold Person spell.

[Morty]

Actually, it was Durkon who used Hold Person.

[Doug Lampert]

He might have taken a 3rd level in fighter, not because its a worthwhile level to take, but because he wants to keep his class levels all reasonably close and plans on taking level 4 before long.He might have taken Ftr3 because it's fairly obvious that Nale's "player" flunked Character Optimization 001 (that's the remedial course kids). I mean Sor/Rog/Ftr specializing in Enchantment.... And he thinks BARDS are underpowered?!?

But consider a level 11 character, Sor6/Rog3/Ftr2 is as good a build as this insane multiclass is gonna get at level 11.

Now advance the character...

Sorcerer 6 gave +1 BAB, +1 to EVERY save, and level 3 spells and given Nale's methods and emphasis Suggestion is THE level 3 spell. Sorcerer 7 doesn't give access to a new spell level and doesn't improve BAB and doesn't add to a single save, d4 HP, 2 skill points/level, a handful of extra slots and spells known. Utterly Crap level from Nale's POV.

Rogue 3 gave sneak attack, trapsense, +1 to Fort and Will saves, Rogue skills, and +1 BAB. Rogue 4 gives Skills, BAB, Uncanny Dodge, and an XP PENALTY. Heck with that.

Fighter 2 gave a feat, good HP, +1 BAB, +1 to Fort Save. Fighter 3 gives +1 good HP, +1 BAB, +1 to Reflex and Will Saves. Nale's short on HP and can obviously use Reflex Saves.

Basically Fighter 3 is as good as anything but some wierd prestige class and better than most. And it sets up for Weapon Specialization next level at Sor6/Rog3/Ftr4. You then add the next two levels to Sor (Improved invisibility at Sor8). Sor6/Rog3/Ftr3 isn't all that good, but it's the only way to get FROM Sor6/Rog3/Ftr2 to Sor6/Rog3/Ftr4.

DougL

[Runolfr]

Updated to add a link for V's use of the Hold Person spell.

As M0rt noted, the caster was Durkon, not Vaarsuvius.

[Wrecan]

Well, crud.

[skinkatlarge]

A thread search on the term "gourmet" came up empty, so I thought I'd let you guys know that in Dragon Magazine #345, Belkar lets us know that he has ranks in Profession (Gourmet Chef) (which come in handy). Didn't see it in the write-up on the first page. Of course you may not consider that canon.

[TroyXavier]

I remember that. It really makes sense for him too.

[Felistor]

Just a quick note (since we all assumed it was true anyway), but #399 confirms that Leeky is higher in level than Pompey. (at least 2 levels higher for him to qualify as a cohort).

As a related note, we can probably add the Leadership feat to Leeky's stats.

[Mr Teufel]

I'd agree with the consensus that seems to be forming in the #398 thread that Elan has somehow added an Int point, even tho he should have done that last level. Maybe he forgot?

And since it was 9 before, and is now 10, it makes a big difference in how the character is played.

And if you're leveling up, you normally up the odd stats to get the bonus, or get rid of penalties. I do, anyway.

[Wrecan]

Okay. I've acknowledged the possible Int increase for Elan.

[Sir_Norbert]

I'd agree with the consensus that seems to be forming in the #398 thread that Elan has somehow added an Int point, even tho he should have done that last level. Maybe he forgot?

And since it was 9 before, and is now 10, it makes a big difference in how the character is played.
The original post says "less than or equal to 10" and all the evidence cited so far deals with the upper limit. What evidence is there for his Int (pre-jailbreak) being exactly 9?

[Wrecan]

It only says "less than or equal to 10" because I changed it from "less than or equal to 9" in response to Mr Teufel's post.

[Sir_Norbert]

Yes, exactly. But what I'm asking is how Mr Teufel knows that Elan's intelligence is exactly 9-changed-to-10 rather than this being the upper limit.

[Mr Teufel]

I know nothing. It's been my experience that players role play Int 9 as being far stupider than Int 10. I've done so myself. Players never play Int 10 as stupid. Haley also wonders if Elan's Int has risen. (Wrecan even linked it.)

Since the quality of Elan's thinking has changed so markedly, I theorise that the character has gone from Int 9 (played as stupid) to Int 10 (played as normal).

And truthfully, how many players who have high IQ's really limit their character's thinking if their character has 10 or more Int? So the player could be even smarter, and just fed up with playing Elan as stupid.

Wow, that's a lot of handwaivium I'm spouting! :)

[Wrecan]

I think he was referring to the upper limit, not an exact number. No need to nitpick each others' posts to death here. By the way, I'm trimming down Elan's equipment under the assumption that he only owns the stuff he got since escaping prison plus the valuable stuff he'd retrieve from Nale, like his instruments (lute and kazoo), the gift certificate, magic boots, and, of course, Banjo.

[Zone]

Umm.. If I'm not wrong, V uses Hold Person in this comic. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html) So, why there isn't link in first post?

[Wrecan]

Durkon cast hold person, not Vaarsuvius. I made the same mistake

[Mawhrin Skel]

Wrecan, Zone is linking #200, not #398. He is also correct - :vaarsuvius: casts Hold Person in #200.

[The_Werebear]

398 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)

Look in the second to last panel at Durkon's hand. It is pointed at Thog and has a white aura around it. Also note that V's mouth is closed. And if there is one thing we know about V, he would never take silent spell.

[Duke of URL]

Wrecan, Zone is linking #200, not #399. He is also correct - :vaarsuvius: casts Hold Person.

To be brutally correct... :vaarsuvius: FIZZLES Hold Person, but (s)he does apparently have it memorized.

[Wrecan]

Wrecan, Zone is linking #200, not #398. He is also correct - :vaarsuvius: casts Hold Person in #200.You are right. my apologies, Zone. A link is forthcoming!

[The_Werebear]

ok, I am just totally off topic today. Blech.

[eilandesq]

To be brutally correct... :vaarsuvius: FIZZLES Hold Person, but (s)he does apparently have it memorized.

Actually, Miko--proving that CHA is based on force of personality, not pleasantness--made her save against V's successfully cast hold person spell without missing a beat, taunting V about being protected by her gods against "corrupt magic." After which Haley stuck her between the shoulder blades with Elan's rapier, causing a pleasing scream. :cool:

[Duke of URL]

Actually, Miko--proving that CHA is based on force of personality, not pleasantness--made her save against V's successfully cast hold person spell without missing a beat, taunting V about being protected by her gods against "corrupt magic." After which Haley stuck her between the shoulder blades with Elan's rapier, causing a pleasing scream. :cool:

Oops... you're quite right. I was reading too quickly and got that one mixed up with the fizzled Suggestion.

[jakeyizle]

398 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0398.html)

Look in the second to last panel at Durkon's hand. It is pointed at Thog and has a white aura around it. Also note that V's mouth is closed. And if there is one thing we know about V, he would never take silent spell.

It's quite possible V would take silent spell, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

[Wrecan]

People don't always say the spell name out loud, even without silent spell. See the comic where Elan transforms Banjo into Banjulhu.

[Wrecan]

Well, we can now add mending to Elan's spell list. (And so I did add it!)

[Wrecan]

Updated some of V's links

[Runolfr]

Umm... Wrecan...

Exactly how is OotS #162 proof that Roy has the Endurance feat?

[Wrecan]

Sleeps in armor, not fatigued.

[Runolfr]

Sleeps in armor, not fatigued.

Ah.

Only a related note, your "cursed crown of Xykon" link is broken (has a comma instead of a period in it).

[Wrecan]

Thanks! I fixed the link and added a link to #402 for evidence of Roy's boots as possessions! And a link for the booty talisman!

[Yzorth]

I would argue that Xykon has ranks in bluff, probably maximum. Here's why:

Xykon has used bluff several times when people or creatures would otherwise probably not have believed him. Here are the examples that I've come up with off the top of my head.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html

Well, thats all I can find right now, but I'm sure this provides some evidence to support the theory of Xykon's ranks in bluff.

Glad to help.

[Wrecan]

I just realized that OOTS 323 established that V has Fire Trap and that V;s Ring of Wizardry is almost definitely attuned ot level three spells, to allow V to cast 11 Explosive RUnes.

[eilandesq]

I can't remember if anyone has bothered trying to stat Shojo yet, but--given that Miko just fatally one-shotted him in #406 and he's known to be a 14th level aristocrat, I think we can safely put his CON at a maximum of 6--and 4 wouldn't surprise me.

[Wrecan]

Well, he's been poisoned a few times. Wouldn't be surprised if he's been subject to an Ability Drain or two.

[The_Werebear]

Can we reduce Miko to LN now?

She has just acted as Judge, Jury, and Executioner on false grounds, culminating in the death of the person she should have been serving because she was so certain her and only her code was right.

[Sir_Norbert]

From the SRD:

People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships.

I see no possible argument for Miko being neutral. One act does not equal an alignment change. She does have "the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others" (for instance when she went back into the burning inn) and nothing in recent strips suggests that she no longer has that commitment.

[Runolfr]

One act against one's alignment is usually not sufficient to force an alignment change, but her attack on Shojo is probably sufficient to turn her into a Warrior with d10 hit dice.

[Wrecan]

Actually, she'd be turned into an ex-paladin, not a warrior

[Runolfr]

Actually, she'd be turned into an ex-paladin, not a warrior

I know, but an ex-Paladin is basically a Warrior with d10 hit dice.

[skyclad]

I know, but an ex-Paladin is basically a Warrior with d10 hit dice.

why wouldnt a warrior have d10 dit dice?

[Wrecan]

Well, not in this specific case, because a Blackguard, which Miko might become, gets certain bonus powers for having levels in ex-Paladin, that a warrior does not.

[Arteyu]

why wouldnt a warrior have d10 dit dice?

The Warrior, a NPC class uses a d8 not d10.

[skyclad]

The Warrior, a NPC class uses a d8 not d10.

Oh, Right. :smalleek: Got it mixed up with Fighter.

[baerdith]

I think Miko should be moved to LE and Fallen Paladin.
One minor bad thing (like stealing cookies) shouldn't change an alignment, but this was a pretty serious offense. Stealling cookies is not on par with cold blooded murder of an innocent old man.

[Yzorth]

Miko has ranks in knowledge planes I think. Here's why:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html

She says, (paraphrasing) if my knowledge of demons is any good...

This implies she has knowledge of demons, and therefore probably taken ranks in it.

Also, Miko is still Lawful Good. This is because Rich SAID a while ago that one act of an opposed alignment does not make you change alignments. She did violate her paladin code of conduct by committing an evil act, but that only makes her loose her powers, not change alignments.

Hope this helps.

[skinkatlarge]

I think we should just wait and see.

[Runolfr]

I think Miko should be moved to LE and Fallen Paladin.

It remains to be seen, though. I don't see how she can avoid falling for what she's done, but I don't think this will necessarily constitute an alignment shift (serious blow though it is).

[Runolfr]

Miko has ranks in knowledge planes I think.

It's listed among her skills; we just don't know how many ranks she might have.

[skyclad]

I think Miko should be moved to LE and Fallen Paladin.
One minor bad thing (like stealing cookies) shouldn't change an alignment, but this was a pretty serious offense. Stealling cookies is not on par with cold blooded murder of an innocent old man.

Did you miss the whole thing about Miko hating evil and that her intents were COMPLETELY good?

[The_Werebear]

Did you miss the whole thing about Miko hating evil and that her intents were COMPLETELY good?

But, her acts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)are evil enough to make her fall. Miko is now a fighter minus bonus feats.

[RyQ_TMC]

You all forget about one thing when considering Elan - remember the second strip? He said there that he got 6 skill points when gaining a level. As he is human, that would make a +1 Int modifier, which means his Int is AT LEAST 12. This is further reinforced when he is left on his own in the prison, when he is capable of being quite cunning. I would rather attribute his behaviour to low Wis score.

[Felistor]

Actually if he gains 6 skill points per level that would put his int mod at -1. (3.5 Bards get 6+int skill points per level).

The biggest problem with that interpretation though, is that he seems to be singing about the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion (which happened in strip 1), not gaining a level. As such he is probably just referring to the fact that in 3.5 bards get a base of six skill points.

The general consensus (back in Class and Level Geekery I) was that Elan's song doesn't tell us anything about party level or stats.

[Mawhrin Skel]

Rich commented that Elan was not taking account of his Int penalty when singing about skill points. So his Int was at most 9 (may have increased).

[skyclad]

But, her acts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html)are evil enough to make her fall. Miko is now a fighter minus bonus feats.

Yes, she's quite obviously fallen but she is not lawful evil and on here way to become a blackguard. probably. :smalltongue:

[Alfryd]

I see no possible argument for Miko being neutral.
Rich characterised Miko as 'Borderline Good' and 'getting worse'. This is exactly the kind of action that would send her over the edge alignmentwise. Of course, she could bounce back to LG territory quite quickly.

I think Miko should be moved to LE and Fallen Paladin.
LE may be a little too far.

[The_Werebear]

Yes, she's quite obviously fallen but she is not lawful evil and on here way to become a blackguard. probably. :smalltongue:

I called for her to be LN anyway.

However...
She could be so certain that she was right that she defies the gods of the south and goes to Xykon to destroy the Order of the Stick and Azure City, about whom she is sure that they are the real evil ones, or are corrupted.

[skyclad]

I called for her to be LN anyway.

However...
She could be so certain that she was right that she defies the gods of the south and goes to Xykon to destroy the Order of the Stick and Azure City, about whom she is sure that they are the real evil ones, or are corrupted.

so you did but I was originally talking to baerdith

[baerdith]

so you did but I was originally talking to baerdith

And I stated that a simple "oopsie" is not on the same level as a violent cold-blooded murder of an innocent old man. There are "bad" acts, "evil" acts and EVIL acts. Killing Shojo was EVIL. It was enough, I think, to shift two degrees from Good to Evil.

[Mordaedil]

Personally, I think Miko remains a lawful good fallen paladin/monk. Did she take only 2 levels of monk, or was there more? Does she loose he monk levels as well as they might be tied into her code of conduct? Would that make her a Aristocrat 2/Warrior 8 or what her level is?

Oh, I don't think this action is enough to make her change alignment, because her "heart" is still in the same place, it's just that she violated her code of conduct, which may cause the loss of paladin-hood without moving her alignment.

[Duke of URL]

And I stated that a simple "oopsie" is not on the same level as a violent cold-blooded murder of an innocent old man. There are "bad" acts, "evil" acts and EVIL acts. Killing Shojo was EVIL. It was enough, I think, to shift two degrees from Good to Evil.

I agree. Miko willfully and intentionally succumbed to pride and hubris, and chose to disregard her own oaths in administering "justice". In doing so she renounced both goodness and law, and cannot be any closer to LG than TN under any circumstance, and, depending on her next choices, could easily slip to LE or CE, all the while believing herself to be the only good and moral person in a sea of sinners.

[skyclad]

Oh, I don't think this action is enough to make her change alignment, because her "heart" is still in the same place, it's just that she violated her code of conduct, which may cause the loss of paladin-hood without moving her alignment.

Excactly. She still consider herself good and tries to do good things. Of course this made her lose her paladin powers, killing a defenceless old man, but she did not do it for profit or lust, she did it to save the city from EVIL.

Don't take this as if I am a Miko lover. In fact I hate her and I wish Rich would kill her off. But still this is the way I see things.

[Amon Star]

And I stated that a simple "oopsie" is not on the same level as a violent cold-blooded murder of an innocent old man. There are "bad" acts, "evil" acts and EVIL acts. Killing Shojo was EVIL. It was enough, I think, to shift two degrees from Good to Evil.

So killing Shojo out of misguided Good intentions is on par with Summoning the Lords Of The Nine and handing the Prime Material to them? I think not. :miko: did something evil, not EVIL.


Does she loose he monk levels as well as they might be tied into her code of conduct?

She will keep her Monk levels regardless. It's a shame that she won't be able to advance as Monk, anymore.

[Renegade Paladin]

And I stated that a simple "oopsie" is not on the same level as a violent cold-blooded murder of an innocent old man. There are "bad" acts, "evil" acts and EVIL acts. Killing Shojo was EVIL. It was enough, I think, to shift two degrees from Good to Evil.
You think incorrectly. Alignment is a measure of consistent behavior, not single acts.

And while we're geeking out, Miko has Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) to wield her katana one-handed. This also makes her Strength 13+.

[Demented]

If alignments used XP, she has enough to go up, but she hasn't taken a level yet.

[silvadel]

Shojo has lost 6 points of con due to age. Even if he started at 12, he would be 6 now.

[Wrecan]

Well, the funky green glow around his sword indicates to me that, at a minimum, Roy's greatsword +5 is also bane to anybody forsaken by the gods (which would include undead, Sabine and, now, Miko).

[The_Werebear]

Actually, I think it just lights up when he is under strong emotion, namely, rage.

[eilandesq]

Watching Miko in #408 pretty well pegged her as far as level goes: she made three katana attacks per round, meaning that her BAB is no higher than +15. We know that she has a "couple" of levels of monk, which would result in 1 point of lost BAB for anything from one to four levels. Therefore, she is no higher than 16th level, but probably higher level than the OotS. Best guess would probably put her at Paladin (now Fallen Paladin) 14/Monk 2.

[Wrecan]

I agree with eilandesq's reasoning.

[silvermesh]

Watching Miko in #408 pretty well pegged her as far as level goes: she made three katana attacks per round, meaning that her BAB is no higher than +15. We know that she has a "couple" of levels of monk, which would result in 1 point of lost BAB for anything from one to four levels. Therefore, she is no higher than 16th level, but probably higher level than the OotS. Best guess would probably put her at Paladin (now Fallen Paladin) 14/Monk 2.

I would put her at Monk2/Ranger2/Paladin12
she tracks, she's a little sneaky, she two-weapon fights, and her armor doesn't look particularly heavy. I don't recall her using much in the way of paladin spells, though I have a bad memory for this kind of stuff.

I could definitely see her going blackguard from this point... I could also see belkar killing her, Death Knight Miko would be pretty cool too...
it's true a single action wouldn't necessarily change someone's alignment, but it easily could. alignment isn't a rating of past actions, it's literally the characters current outlook and temperment. Past actions are only used to rate alignment when the charcetr usually walks the same path, Miko could easily suffer a breakdown from this turn of events and have a rather sudden alignment shift. This is all entirely depended on what is going on in Miko's head. We must all remembver that believing yourself to be just and good is not even a requirement for being just and good, let alone does this attitude solely allow someone to remain good. a character can be extremely evil without ever believing himself to be.

[plainsfox]

She took survival as a cross class skill and only put one point in it. She also took Track as a feat.

[Runolfr]

She took survival as a cross class skill and only put one point in it. She also took Track as a feat.

Already noted

EDIT: Oh, wait... that was a response to someone else. Never mind.

[Sir_Norbert]

Well, the funky green glow around his sword indicates to me that, at a minimum, Roy's greatsword +5 is also bane to anybody forsaken by the gods (which would include undead, Sabine and, now, Miko).
"Your sword will sometimes glow with a deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead" (strip 297). In other words, the energy appears regardless of its target but does extra damage to undead, so we can't deduce anything from the fact that it appears in the Sabine and Miko fights.

[Renegade Paladin]

Given that the smith thought this was a bad thing, I would deduce that the energy harms Roy as well, though perhaps not as much as whatever the blade's going into.

[Wrecan]

Well, Sabine and Miko's reaction to it indicates to me that it does extra damage to more than just the undead. I doubt it hurts Roy. The blacksmith was just thinking aesthetics -- maybe Roy didn't want his sword to glow.

[jakeyizle]

:roy:Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 13
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str ≥17 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html)




I'm confused, how does 0004 show that Roy has a strength ≥ 17?

[Amon Star]

I'm confused, how does 0004 show that Roy has a strength ≥ 17?

He picks up and runs with :durkon:. That takes at least 17 Str.

[Sir_Norbert]

Well, Sabine and Miko's reaction to it indicates to me that it does extra damage to more than just the undead. I doubt it hurts Roy. The blacksmith was just thinking aesthetics -- maybe Roy didn't want his sword to glow.
We're talking about a +5 sword together with an energy effect described as "deadly". I think their reactions are easily justified without needing recourse to extra damage depending on the victim (beyond what is stated about the effect on undead).

[Wrecan]

Except the glow doesn't happen every time he fights, and when he strikes and it is glowing, the victim always utters a cry of pain. That indicates ot me something unusual is happening.

[PaladinFreak]

I agree. Sabine says: (I'm to lazy to see if I got the qoute exactly right) I don't know how you did that, but I'm going to make you pay!

That implies that that stroke hurt more then the others (and she does already have wounds from the sword).

[silvadel]

How certain are we that she is only level 2 in monk -- that run speed looks to be faster than 30' and you get that at level 3 not 2.

[Krytha]

Perhaps the glow affects all evil aligned characters (I'm not getting into whether Miko is no longer LG or not - you can decide for yourself) and undead in particular. 1.5x for evil, non-undead, 2x for undead?

And I'm not sure that it deals damage to Roy, I thought that was just part of the ha-ha in the strip.

[Wrecan]

How certain are we that she is only level 2 in monk -- that run speed looks to be faster than 30' and you get that at level 3 not 2.
Her running speed is 120' (light armor). She used stunning fist so he wouldn't get an attack of opportunity when she fled. (So she's clearly running faster than withdrawal speeds).

Clearly, she is getting ready to make an Overrun attempt on Belkar, and hoping his AoO fails (likely because she overheard them talking about the Mark of Justice).

[silvadel]

Sigh -- I was talking about >30 base speed -- yes that would translate into 80 or 160 feet here depending on if she is getting a standard action and partial run after kicking Roy or a full run.

[Mr Wizard]

What is Hinjo's Sword?

I'm not an experience DnD gamer, but I will try a guess and answer my own question.

Somebody mentioned on the first page of the 409 Discussion page that they thought that the sword was made of cold iron which I checked up on by looking at comic #62 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) which had Haley's arrow the same dark color.

Then I thought about people saying that Miko may not be able to use her own sword, or it would be less effective, because of her fall. Some one mentioned the Holy Avenger. Seeing how Hinjo's sword had a special color, I went to look for a special sword on d20srd.org that was also made of cold iron.

Looky what I found (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger)

So I think it is a either a normal sword that happens to be made of cold iron, or a Holy Avenger.

Also, anyone willing to venture a guess as to what Hinjo's stats are, based on the Miko-Hinjo fight? I like reading what people think their abilities are, and the debates that follow.:smallamused:

[Porthos]

What is Hinjo's Sword?

I'm not an experience DnD gamer, but I will try a guess and answer my own question.

Somebody mentioned on the first page of the 409 Discussion page that they thought that the sword was made of cold iron which I checked up on by looking at comic #62 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) which had Haley's arrow the same dark color.

Then I thought about people saying that Miko may not be able to use her own sword, or it would be less effective, because of her fall. Some one mentioned the Holy Avenger. Seeing how Hinjo's sword had a special color, I went to look for a special sword on d20srd.org that was also made of cold iron.

Looky what I found (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#holyAvenger)

So I think it is a either a normal sword that happens to be made of cold iron, or a Holy Avenger.

Also, anyone willing to venture a guess as to what Hinjo's stats are, based on the Miko-Hinjo fight? I like reading what people think their abilities are, and the debates that follow.:smallamused:

Great catch! :smallcool: :smallsmile:

I'm going to mention this in the discussion thread (linking to your post of course) since people have been wondering about the sword.:smallsmile:

[Krytha]

So cold iron is coloured black?

[Solara]

Hey, sorry for the slight derail, but does the OP represent the general consensus for everyone's stats, etc?

I picked up a copy of Icewind Dale II the other day and this weekend I was wanting to try and make a party as close to the OotS as possible.

[Angela Christine]

So cold iron is coloured black?

Probably. I've never seen anything in real life la bled cold iron, but cast iron frying pans are black, and wrought iron railings are black. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_iron cold iron is a kind of wrought iron.

[Sir_Norbert]

Except the glow doesn't happen every time he fights, and when he strikes and it is glowing, the victim always utters a cry of pain. That indicates ot me something unusual is happening.
From the two times we've seen it so far, I would guess that the glow occurs when Roy's feeling particularly strong emotions of anger/hate/whatever towards his opponent. The victim utters a cry of pain -- obviously -- because they've been hit by a "deadly" energy effect. To make it crystal clear: I agree that the energy effect increases the damage done by the sword (how else could "deadly" be interpreted?) What I don't agree with is that it did any extra damage to Miko as opposed to the damage it would do if Roy were fighting, for example, Haley.

[baerdith]

From the two times we've seen it so far, I would guess that the glow occurs when Roy's feeling particularly strong emotions of anger/hate/whatever towards his opponent.

Or maybe since the blacksmith was speaking in "game terms" the "some times glows with..." could mean glows on a critical strike? I mean Roy did have to get her to come out an say +5 greatsword.

[baerdith]

I've been wondering something...
Shouldn't Elan have 1 level of Wizard? I know he can use it, unless he increased his intelligence, but he did take it.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

[Angela Christine]

I've been wondering something...
Shouldn't Elan have 1 level of Wizard? I know he can use it, unless he increased his intelligence, but he did take it.http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html

He was going to take a level of wizard, but he changed his mind in the next strip.
:elan: Actually ... being a wizard kind of sounds like a downer. I think I'll stick with bard.

[baerdith]

He was going to take a level of wizard, but he changed his mind in the next strip.
:elan: Actually ... being a wizard kind of sounds like a downer. I think I'll stick with bard.

:elan: "All I have to do is decide to take a level of wizard and BOOM! Instant knowledge." :smalltongue:

[Felistor]

Hey, sorry for the slight derail, but does the OP represent the general consensus for everyone's stats, etc?

More or less, yeah. Wrecan and Runolfr have been maintaining the stat lists in the opening posts based on a group consensus, plus their own interpretations where there is no consensus.


Be sure to read Kish's post (#6 on the first page) to get an idea how people differ on some issues.

Belkar's Wisdom stat has probably been the most fiercely debated issue, and there is no real resolution in sight (barring a future strip that makes it plain), so you'd kinda have to reach your own conclusion on that.

[rwald]

How did Roy blast Miko backwards as we see in #409? Awesome Blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow) would require that Roy be Large and have strength 25 or higher, while a simple bull rush would have resulted in Roy moving with Miko forward. Is this just a cinematic effect, or does it tell us something about Roy's abilities?

Incidentally, I'm in the "the green glow happens when Roy scores a critical, and does 1d6 damage to most things, 3d6 vs. undead" camp. If such a camp exists.

[Amon Star]

:elan: "All I have to do is decide to take a level of wizard and BOOM! Instant knowledge." :smalltongue:

The DM may have let him take it back when he changed his mind. Other than that, who knows.


Incidentally, I'm in the "the green glow happens when Roy scores a critical, and does 1d6 damage to most things, 3d6 vs. undead" camp. If such a camp exists.

It does now.

[Runolfr]

How certain are we that she is only level 2 in monk -- that run speed looks to be faster than 30' and you get that at level 3 not 2.

We aren't sure. That's why her level estimate is 2+ instead of just 2.

[Runolfr]

How did Roy blast Miko backwards as we see in #409? Awesome Blow (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#awesomeBlow) would require that Roy be Large and have strength 25 or higher, while a simple bull rush would have resulted in Roy moving with Miko forward. Is this just a cinematic effect, or does it tell us something about Roy's abilities?

I'd be inclined to say that it's the cinematic result of a Power Attack that knocked her out.

[Wrecan]

I'm going to agree on that being cinematic.

[Melange]

I would suggest Improved Bull Rush

[Wrecan]

I would suggest Improved Bull RushWhen using Bull Rush, you move with the defender if you more more than five feet, even if you use Improved Bull Rush.

It's cinematic, nothing more.

[AllisterH]

Why is Haley listed as "Good"?

While we know "why" she's so focused on treasure, that still doesn't excuse the fact that

a) she has purposely tried to cheat the party of their fair share of the treausre more than once.

b) she has also shown more interest in saving her own money than saving other people when both are in conflict (the Inn)

c) she had no problems with assaulting a paladin even after she knew why the paladin had attacked.

d) She thought nothing of killing a prisoner until scared off by the big tough LG fighter.

The only indication of her goodness is that she was able to touch the symbol in the first arc, yet this doesn't mean anything since Nale only surmised that his party couldn't touch it.

She's Lina Inverse and Lina has NEVER been classified as Good (CN has always been Lina's alignment which works for Haley).

[Melange]

c) she had no problems with assaulting a paladin even after she knew why the paladin had attacked.



Roy had no problems assaulting Miko either, don't forget. Are you saying he's not Good either?

[skyclad]

Why is Haley listed as "Good"?

While we know "why" she's so focused on treasure, that still doesn't excuse the fact that

a) she has purposely tried to cheat the party of their fair share of the treausre more than once.

b) she has also shown more interest in saving her own money than saving other people when both are in conflict (the Inn)

c) she had no problems with assaulting a paladin even after she knew why the paladin had attacked.

d) She thought nothing of killing a prisoner until scared off by the big tough LG fighter.

The only indication of her goodness is that she was able to touch the symbol in the first arc, yet this doesn't mean anything since Nale only surmised that his party couldn't touch it.

She's Lina Inverse and Lina has NEVER been classified as Good (CN has always been Lina's alignment which works for Haley).

Didnt she also want to sell prisoners as slaves?

[AllisterH]

Roy had no problems assaulting Miko either, don't forget. Are you saying he's not Good either?

Not after immediately finding out that she was a paladin. Notice, both Durkon and Roy wre at least willing to listen to what she had to say. Haley et al first thought on hearingt he chrage is "Ok, let's go clear are names" but "let's beat up this paladin and go".

Might not be the big EVIL but it most assuredly is closer to the evil side of the neutral divide.

She isn't evil, far from it, but she's done more "evil things" than "good" things. Sure, she's in love with Elan but just because Elan is good, doesnt make her good (and wow, Elan's personality is a lot like Gourry although Gourry's way more effective in battle).

[Demented]

She's just been around Roy too long, is all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0212.html)

[Deuce]

Haley is most likely Chaotic Good.

She was effected by the Unholy Blight in #11

Detected as "Not Evil" in #202

And pretty much the whole point of #393 is that she isn't really evil - her self loathing says "he thinks your evil", where I'd imagine it would be more "he knows the truth" if she were. I believe she also says "I'm Chaotic Good-ish" in the cryptogram in that one as well.

So, pretty much CG. She's got the CG Thief stereotype down pat - good at heart, but active dislike for rules and laws.

[1337_master]

look here.

she didn't say anything about CG

[F.H. Zebedee]

Chaotic Good, definately. Maybe Chaotic Neutral on occasion, it's kinda blurry if ya ask me. (Neutral Good makes no sense whatsoever, so she's Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral for sure.)

[Mathias_Tanavar]

Is there stats for Hinjo in this thread any where

[Zeb The Troll]

Just noticed that Runolfr still has Miko listed with Improved Two Weapon Fighting as likely but not proven. I think the fact that she gets 5 attacks when wielding two weapons and only 3 while wielding one pretty much locks that in.

[AllisterH]

Haley is most likely Chaotic Good.

She was effected by the Unholy Blight in #11

Detected as "Not Evil" in #202

And pretty much the whole point of #393 is that she isn't really evil - her self loathing says "he thinks your evil", where I'd imagine it would be more "he knows the truth" if she were. I believe she also says "I'm Chaotic Good-ish" in the cryptogram in that one as well.

So, pretty much CG. She's got the CG Thief stereotype down pat - good at heart, but active dislike for rules and laws.

1. V was affected by the Unholy Blight and he's listed as Lawful Neutral.

2. The paladin power is "Detect evil", not "Detect non-good". Big difference as the former won't trigger for anyone that isn't evil.

3. Just because she's not evil, that does not make her good and neither does her thinking of herself as "good".

Other than her willingess to save the dirt farmer (a good deed), there's nothing she's done for others that hasn't directly benefited herself (or by extension, her friends).

Chaotic Neutral people can have friends and fall in love (hell, I'd argue that even CE people can fall in love and have friends as well)

[Krytha]

I would move Haley's alignment to CN. She SAYS she's CG-ISH (ish being the important part here which could indicate she's lying again, or just saying it for Elan). She's never behaved particularily good on her own, and is liable to acts of greed that benefit herself (even if she DOES have a reason) and shoots a random quest guy in the foot because she's impatient? I would argue that if she weren't hanging around the OotS (made up of mostly good members on a good quest), she would be off doing a little more stealing and a little less saving the world.

[Amon Star]

I would suggest Improved Bull Rush


When using Bull Rush, you move with the defender if you more more than five feet, even if you use Improved Bull Rush.

It's cinematic, nothing more.

Also, if :roy: did have Improved Bull Rush, he would most likely remember the rules better, yet he says he doesn't really remember them here; http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html

[Wrecan]

1. V was affected by the Unholy Blight and he's listed as Lawful Neutral.
V is not listed as either a he or Lawful neutral.


Other than her willingess to save the dirt farmer (a good deed), there's nothing she's done for others that hasn't directly benefited herself (or by extension, her friends).She says Chaotic Good-ish. I interpret that as Chaotic Good with neutral tendencies. Which in game terms makes her Chaotic Good until something more happens.


Chaotic Neutral people can have friends and fall in love (hell, I'd argue that even CE people can fall in love and have friends as well)
So can people of any alignment.


I would move Haley's alignment to CN. She SAYS she's CG-ISH (ish being the important part here which could indicate she's lying again, or just saying it for Elan).
Since Elan can't understand it, the only person she'd be lying to is herself. "-ISH" doesn't mean "NOT" it means "barely", in context.


I would argue that if she weren't hanging around the OotS (made up of mostly good members on a good quest), she would be off doing a little more stealing and a little less saving the world.That may be so, but the point is that she is hanging around with OOTS and has modified her behavior accordingly. Whatever she may have been in the past, right now she appears to be Chaotic Good.

[Porthos]

I interpet the "Chaotic Good... ish" as her self-doubt over her CG standing. If left to her own devices she'd probably want to be CG, but drift to CN. But since she is in a party that reinforces her better nature, she has enough moral support to remain CG.

Now how close she is to the CG/CN line is a matter of debate. :smalltongue:

[Michaelart]

Why is Haley listed as "Good"?

a) she has purposely tried to cheat the party of their fair share of the treausre more than once.

b) she has also shown more interest in saving her own money than saving other people when both are in conflict (the Inn)

You have to remember that she needs the money desperately to save her father. I vote for CG.

[Melange]

Also, if :roy: did have Improved Bull Rush, he would most likely remember the rules better, yet he says he doesn't really remember them here; http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0288.html

Just because he can't remember the rules, doesn't mean he doesn't have the feat. Hell I often forget the rules for feats my character has. That's like saying that :durkon: does have attack because he forgets what modifiers he needs to uses from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html

[Tokeloshe]

I always figured Elan for a high-ish int (Say, 12-14), extremely low wisdom character. (By extremely low, as around the 4-6 range.)

Reasoning? Elan always has skills to spare when leveling (Multiple performs for example, with perform, Kazoo) can think fine when forced to and actually managed to get back to Haley fine. Further, Int is kind of a good ability to have if you are a bard.

However, his wisdom would probably fall somewhere beneath that of your average rock. His behaviour throughout has lacked wisdom - no commons sense, very little in the way of willpower etc...

[Wrecan]

The debate about Elan's Int and Wisdom rages on and on. I'm only accepting concrete evidence from specific examples. V saying Elan doesn't have enough Int to cast cantrips is sufficient for me. Roy saying Elan doesn't have enough Wisdom to cast divine spells is sufficient for me.

At least until we get a specific example of average of above average Int or Wisdom. (Say, Elan mentioning getting a bonus language at first level)

[Morty]

The debate about Elan's Int and Wisdom rages on and on. I'm only accepting concrete evidence from specific examples. V saying Elan doesn't have enough Int to cast cantrips is sufficient for me. Roy saying Elan doesn't have enough Wisdom to cast divine spells is sufficient for me.
I wouldn't count that as evidence, since V was pissed when (s)he said that, so it might have been an exagerration. So I'd just say that we have no real evidence on Elan's Int.

[skyclad]

You have to remember that she needs the money desperately to save her father. I vote for CG.

Even a chaotic evil person could've done that.

[Wrecan]

Well, by definition, a chaotic evil person can do pretty much anything she wants. We can only base our estimates of alignment on the specific examples we have and assume they are representative of her alignment as a whole.

[plainsfox]

I view Roy and Vaarsuvius's comments as put downs....EG saying "That guy couldn't spell cat if you spotted him the C and the T." Not as "You are actually incapable of performing cantrips." Which as a Bard, Elan can do.

[Melange]

Well, by definition, a chaotic evil person can do pretty much anything she wants.

Not entirely true... By definition, the D&D Alignment system is absolute. As such, there are clear definitions of what is Good and what is Evil. One man's good is another man's evil, but one man's Good can never be another man's Evil. As such, a Chaotic Evil person has to do inherently Evil actions or else they may find their alignment shifting towards Good. The only time an Evil person can do Good is if trying to trick Good people into thinking the person is Good too. But since they aren't being sincere, it is still Evil.

So yes, a Chaotic Evil can do pretty much anything s/he wants, but that's because they want to do Chaotic Evil things.

[Wrecan]

Not entirely true... But true enough for purposes of this debate. The fact is that no character has been in the strip long enough to say "This action proves X alignment". So any speculation has to look at what we do have and extract meaning from it. Writing "Well, an evil character could also strive to free his father from prison" isn't helpful. The question isn't which alignments allow such an act, but with which alignments is such an act most consonant.

Rescuing your father form a tyrant is more consonant with a good alignment than a neutral or evil alignment.

Seeking to help rescue a dirt farmer from ogres is more consonant wuth a good alignment than a neutral or evil alignment.

Tricking your party into giving you a greater share of treasure is more consonant with a neutral than a good or evil alignment.

Considering selling people into slavery is more consonant with an evil than a good or neutral alignment.

In the end, it's my opinion that her good actions outweigh her evil and neutral actions, though not by much. And "not by much" is, in my estimation, why Haley modified her own assessment of her alignment with "-ish".

[Zeb The Troll]

I view Roy and Vaarsuvius's comments as put downs....EG saying "That guy couldn't spell cat if you spotted him the C and the T." Not as "You are actually incapable of performing cantrips." Which as a Bard, Elan can do.Yes, but Elan's bard cantrips are based on charisma. And as for a lot of skill points, a bard gets 6+Int per level anyway. That's a lot. Extra perform skills doesn't say much either, because that's an untrained skill modified by your charisma. Logically Elan should be able to pick up ANY instrument and give a decent performance.

[Iranon]

Since there is some controversy about estimating mental stats, I thought I'd share this; it might clean up a bit of the confusion (and be of interest to those who wondered how smart they'd be in D&D. Can't do anything for WIS and CHA, sorry.)

If we assume that ability scores for the general population are still determined the old 3d6 way and that the two terms are in fact equivalent, we get a very good approximation of

IQ = 5(INT+10)

by comparing relative frequencies (for example, the chance to exceed an IQ of 120 or an INT of 14 is ~9%.)



If someone wants to know where this claim came from... linkety link: http://www.sysabend.org/champions/rules/3D6Percentiles.html and http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/IQtable.aspx

[Zeb The Troll]

Since there is some controversy about estimating mental stats, I thought I'd share this; it might clean up a bit of the confusion (and be of interest to those who wondered how smart they'd be in D&D. Can't do anything for WIS and CHA, sorry.)

If we assume that ability scores for the general population are still determined the old 3d6 way and that the two terms are in fact equivalent, we get a very good approximation of

IQ = 5(INT+10)

by comparing relative frequencies (for example, the chance to exceed an IQ of 120 or an INT of 14 is ~9%.)
The problem with that formula is that it puts someone with a 20 Int as only a 150 IQ and someone with a 2 Int having a 60, even though a 2 Int is defined as not intelligent enough to learn to speak. I think you'd come a little closer saying that the IQ equals Int*10, but even then it's dodgy, especially on the high end.

[RMS Oceanic]

...puts someone with a 20 Int as only a 150 IQ...

Only 150? 100 is an average IQ. To get into Mensa, you need an IQ of 132. I think an IQ of 150 for someone with 20 int sounds about right


...and someone with a 2 Int having a 60, even though a 2 Int is defined as not intelligent enough to learn to speak...

Again, this seems correct.

[Zeb The Troll]

Only 150? 100 is an average IQ. To get into Mensa, you need an IQ of 132. I think an IQ of 150 for someone with 20 int sounds about right

Again, this seems correct.I'll admit I'm no expert on the subject, but this site (http://hem.bredband.net/b153434/Index.htm) kind of supports my theory. If you look at Table I it shows "average" as being from 85-114 (9-11 on my scale) and "Highest Genius" as 200 (20 on my scale).

Further, this site (http://www.myg.org.sg/PP_Home/RadAug98/iq_and_the_classification_of_the.htm) holds that an IQ of 50-70 is only mildly disabled and sometimes indistinguishable from the population at large while a 35-50 is still sometimes able to acquire academic skills. That's far below your assertion that a 60 IQ may be incapable of speech.

Bottom line is that it's not really feasible to draw a correlation between a die roll and real world statistics in this area, but for general purposes I think my scale is closer than Iranon's.

[Amon Star]

Just because he can't remember the rules, doesn't mean he doesn't have the feat. Hell I often forget the rules for feats my character has. That's like saying that :durkon: does have attack because he forgets what modifiers he needs to uses from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html

That's true, but :roy: IS a highly intelligent and academic fighter. He went to college to learn how to fight, which in the OotS world means learning all the rules. If he can't remember what his feats do, then no one can. After all, to you it's just a game, but to :roy: his life may depend on on it.


I wouldn't count that as evidence, since V was pissed when (s)he said that, so it might have been an exagerration. So I'd just say that we have no real evidence on Elan's Int.

However, the Giant has said that :elan: doesn't have the Int to make proper use of Duelist. That gives him at most an 11.

[AllisterH]

Rescuing your father form a tyrant is more consonant with a good alignment than a neutral or evil alignment.



How is this a "good" act? Rescuing a no-name person from a tyran tis a good act, but rescuing a close family member is inherently a neutral act since, unlike the former, there _IS_ a reward for just rescuing your father.

As well, dont forget that Haley has tried to cheat the party not once, but twice. She has also placed saving her treasure as more important than saving lives. She threw a knife at a guy just baecause she was impatient....

The only good act she has actually done (not said but actually done) was saving the dirt farmers. Everything else she has done has been to benefit her personally.

Stand by my belief, she's Lina Inverse in action, thus she's Chaotic Neutral.

[Krytha]

How is this a "good" act? Rescuing a no-name person from a tyran tis a good act, but rescuing a close family member is inherently a neutral act since, unlike the former, there _IS_ a reward for just rescuing your father.

As well, dont forget that Haley has tried to cheat the party not once, but twice. She has also placed saving her treasure as more important than saving lives. She threw a knife at a guy just baecause she was impatient....

The only good act she has actually done (not said but actually done) was saving the dirt farmers. Everything else she has done has been to benefit her personally.

Stand by my belief, she's Lina Inverse in action, thus she's Chaotic Neutral.

Gotta agree. Listening to Haley when she says she's Chaotic Good-ISH, I mean.. you're trusting Haley the rogue? It is MORE than possible that Haley just said that because she was afraid that Elan wouldn't like her if he knew she wasn't the same alignment as him. Don't look at her words, look at her actions.

She's on a good quest BECAUSE she's with Elan and a good party, and occasionally (CN) does good acts when she feels like it and possibly to impress Elan (dirt farmers is the only "true" altruism I can think of). But didn't she also seriously threaten to ditch when Miko showed up? Where's the dedication to the cause? I don't have time to go through the archives right now, but I might just have to compile all the very CN Haley moments.

She's either convinced herself she's CG when she isn't, or knows she's CN and was just telling Elan what he wanted to hear. Chaotic Neutral with good tendencies is... Chaotic... Good... ish...

[Wrecan]

Gotta agree. Listening to Haley when she says she's Chaotic Good-ISH, I mean.. you're trusting Haley the rogue?
When she's talking to herself? Yes.


It is MORE than possible that Haley just said that because she was afraid that Elan wouldn't like her if he knew she wasn't the same alignment as him. Don't look at her words, look at her actions.
In this case, her word is an action, since she had no expectation anybody would understand her.


But didn't she also seriously threaten to ditch when Miko showed up?

Where's the dedication to the cause?
What cause? They had finished the side quest and were going home to cash in the dragon hoard.


Chaotic Neutral with good tendencies is... Chaotic... Good... ish...
So is Chaotic good with neutral tendencies.

[Wrecan]

How is this a "good" act? Rescuing a no-name person from a tyran tis a good act
Being good doesn't require altruism.

[Wrecan]

Haley Actions

Good
Giving Elan a healing potion (#8) (this may have been before she develops an attraction to him)
Against killing and "can't stand a bloodthirsty god" (#81)
Insists they rescue Elan (#153), which Roy confirms is a good act (#162) (this is arguable, since Elan is someone to whom she is attracted)
Instinct is not to sell people into slavery (#171)
Agrees to rescue the dirt farmer, with no promise of compensation (#212)
Neutral
Hiding treasure from the party (#29)
Doesn't want to join with LG, in part, because it reuduces treasure shares (#45)
Joins cult for chance to make money later on (#85)
Tricks party into giving her double share of gold (#129)
Evil
Tempted (briefly) to sell evil sorceress into slavery (#171)
Shoots man in leg to solve a riddle. (#327)
Notes:
Abandoning the party to Miko (#205) is chaotic, not evil. Her time with the party was complete. She had no reason to keep adventuring with them anyway. She tried to convince the party to come along and they refused. They weren't even in mortal danger as Roy was convinced he could convince them of their innocence.

Now, are these things definitvely good, neutral or evil? No. But are they indicative? Absolutely.

For me, the most definitive action is her helping the dirt farmer gratis. The most non-good thing she's actually done is shooting a man in the leg, stealing a potion from Belkar (which was done to help Elan), and cheating the party out of a share of treasure. Weighing that against the dirt farmer scenario, I believe she is CG with neutral tendencies, rather than CN with good tendencies.

[Iranon]

***DORK ALERT***

I had done quite a bit of reasearch on this (no, I don't have a life) and am confident in my claims... so here's some additional info that I hope will satisfy the skeptics.
Also, some of the objections alerted me to relevant points I hadn't adressed yet, so here it goes:



IQ for adults by definition follows a normal distribution with mean 100, standard deviation 15. One thing to keep in mind is that the scores are NOT an objective scale - they are a measure of relative frequency; this will matter when we get to discussion about the very high ends where the numbers to work with are small. It doesn't matter in everyday use.

3d6 isn't quite random enough to fit a normal distribution but there's nothing we can do about that. Well, I can't; any true maths freaks out there might be able to. The expected standard deviation of 3d6 is 3, so a factor of 5 for the conversion makes more sense than a factor of 10.

Since the mean is supposed to be 100 and not 102.5, 5(INT)+47.5 - a flat 2.5 less than the my original suggestion of 5(Int+10) - would have been more accurate but the original comes closer at the moderately-high end of the distribution (where the discrepancies become more blantant, hence the 'biased' adjustment). 5(INT)+47.5 is the best approximation by definition if we don't use something way more complicated than addition and multiplication in our conversion:

Mean matches, Standard Deviation matches... the only thing left to take into account is that 3d6 isn't random enough to qualify as a 'normal' variable. Just about the only point where this really matters is at the extremes (approximately 1 in 250 people have an IQ that would translate to a 19 or more in my original model; see comment at the end of this). Individual frequencies of those scores are noticably below 1/216 so it can't be expressed by a 3d6 roll. The distrubution is symetrical so the same applies for the low end).

If the whole thing doesn't match Real Life, it's Real Life's fault. No, this is not a joke. Real-life IQ scales are adjusted for the population it's intended for - e.g. nationality and the time it was taken. In D&D we are given a fair and unbiased standard for stat distribution.
Assuming people in your campaign world are as smart as the people in your country, The D&D approximation I gave will fit extremely well. Better than the current scale of a neighbouring country, or your own from a decade or two ago.



A look at the ceilings:

1 in 216 randomly rolled characters will have a natural 18 in a given score. 1 in 215 people will have an IQ of 139 or more.
An IQ of 180 (equivalent using the proposed 10(int) approximation) is a true rarity - less than 1 in 20 millions.

Since the distribution is symetrical, the same applies for the low end. People pointed out some problems, especially at the low end, for which I have no elegant solutions. Here an attempt of an explanation:

'A Wizard did it' (although it was TSR back then). Cutting off the scale where they thought meaningful interaction is still possible and using scores of 1 and 2 for sub-sentient intelligence makes sense from a designer's point of view, so INT 3 would stand for a rather wide range of IQ scores. Conversely, it seems that an INT of 18 is also supposed to encompass a larger bracket than my model suggests - 19 would seem more appropriate as 'the stuff of legends' rather than 'cleverest person in a small town'.

An unfortunate consequence of this assumption would be that 'int 18' doesn't tell us very much. Could be the smartest person in the neighbourhood or the smartest person in a small country... but we'd have this problem with every ceiling value. Per definition, the smartest person on earth would have an IQ of ~195 if they could be identified; perhaps as 'low' as 190 if a realistic number of people are tied for place 1. This is where things break down and the lack of objectivity of the system starts to show, but proposing 200 as 'as intelligent as humanly possible' comes close to making sense. What would the equivalent intelligence score be?
If someone is interested and wants to throw me a number, I'd be happy to write an addendum.

Provided people don't murder me for excessive geekery.

[Zeb The Troll]

***DORK ALERT***Umm, errr, eehh, yeah. But mine is easier! :smalltongue:

[BurntOfferings]

Runolfr, Miko has a minimum Strength of 13, since she is able to wield a katana one-handed. Relevant link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#exoticWeaponProficiency). Recall that a katana is equivalent to a bastard sword.

[Felistor]

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6139/alignment2at9.jpg

You could just list her alignment as "Chaotic Goodish" as far as I am concerned. Of CG and CN though I think there is a better case for CG.

[Amon Star]

Gotta agree. Listening to Haley when she says she's Chaotic Good-ISH, I mean.. you're trusting Haley the rogue?


When she's talking to herself? Yes.

Bare in mind that :haley: lies to herself as much as she does to other people, if not more.


Haley Actions

Good
Giving Elan a healing potion (#8)
Overwhelmed by Unholy Blight to the extent she "can't think" (#10)
Against killing and "can't stand a bloodthirsty god" (#81)
Rebukes V for hurting Elan's feelings (#128)
Seeks to rescue dad from tyrant (#131)
And... in OotPCs we learn she gave up a relatively safe job as an urban thief for the more life-threatening job of adventurer in order to get the cash.
Insists they rescue Elan (#153), which Roy confirms is a good act (#162)
Kind to animals (#154)
Instinct is not to sell people into slavery (171)
Agrees to rescue the dirt farmer, with no promise of compensation (#212)

Personally, I don't think the ones I highlighted should count as good acts. They are, after all, done for :elan:'s benefit, who she has the hots for, which would make them Neutral. The same could be said for rescueing her father, especially since she's planning on charging him for it.

[Krytha]

The unholy blight affected V too to a fairly equal degree and s/he is LN.

Let's not forget she shot the red truth guy in the foot just because she got impatient. Is that a good act, or a neutral act even? She showed no remorse. Rescuing her dad isn't good, it's neutral. In the same way that she gives Elan stuff because she likes him, she's rescuing her dad because it's her dad and not because she is bound to some higher moral following. And yes, Haley lies to other people and herself all the time. Her self-loathing knew something was up but she ignored it and almost got herself killed.

Using the notion that she knew that no one could understand her when she called herself Chaotic-good-ish is not strong evidence. Why would she bother shouting all those other things then? If she knew no one could understand her, she wouldn't have bothered at all. Yet here she was, trying to convince Elan that Nale was lying even though she knew he couldn't understand her. So which is it?