Class and Level Geekery II

[lord_khaine]

actualy, even then a katana is a better weapon, since its has a better critt range.

anyway, whats the general opinion around whereever Miko has Power attack?
it would have helped her break the bars, and kill those goblings unarmed, and she kinda hintet at having it when she fought the monster in the darkness.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yeah, I think she has Power Attack. Talking about hitting with more power to deal more damage is pretty much what Power Attack is. This implies she is at least character level 15, with 9 feats (6 normal, 1 human, 2 monk).

[Zeb The Troll]

Speaking of Miko feats, do we have enough to say she's probably got Cleave based on #461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) panel 3?

[Spiryt]

Speaking of Miko feats, do we have enough to say she's probably got Cleave based on #461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) panel 3?

It's questionable - Miko didn't even touched him, but who said that she had to.
Energy of her kick was so insane that ripped head strike other hobo to death.
Interesting theory :smallwink:

[Zeb The Troll]

Well, something happened to let her kill two of them in one attack, that was just the simplest solution that came to mind. It's as good a way as any to depict an unarmed cleave attack. And would also confirm that Power Attack theory being discussed.

[Glorfindel]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html) comic more or less implies she has Power Attack.

[Vargtass]

Well, something happened to let her kill two of them in one attack, that was just the simplest solution that came to mind. It's as good a way as any to depict an unarmed cleave attack. And would also confirm that Power Attack theory being discussed.

I second the Power Attack and Cleave conclusion. I do not think we can infer more monk levels than two based on tactical decisions on Miko's part. After all, she is in delusional mode right now...

[Post]

Monks get cleave for free at first level.

[Zeb The Troll]

Monks get cleave for free at first level.:smallconfused:

*checks two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm) online (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/monk.html) SRD's*

I don't think so. Stunning Fist or Improved Grapple. Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows at second level.

[Post]

Ack, They used too.

[Kreistor]

I agree that Cleave is likely. It's a pretty good rendition of that feat in action.

[Wrecan]

I've been giving some thought to comic 450 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html), where Belkar begins using the Eye of Fear and Flame (EoF&F) as a wand. It seems to me that Belkar does this through the use of Intimidate checks.

Intimidate is a d20+Skill+Cha, opposed by your opponent's d20+HD+Wis. In addition, Belkar would suffer a -4 penalty for being one size smaller than the EoF&F. (However, the EoF&F may have a lower Wis than usual for its kind, given its cowardice.)

My understand of an EoF&F is that it would generally get a +14. With the size differential, that's a +18. Thus, if Belkar has a Charisma bonus +0 (the most he likely has) and rolls a natural 20, he would beat the EoF&F (assuming Wisdom normal for its race) if it rolls a natural 1.

However, Intimidate is a cross-class skill for Rangers (though a class skill for Barbarians). Even if Belkar maxed out in that skill, he'd only have about 7-15 ranks in it. Still, this would explain why Belkar has no Skill ranks in Survival or Spot. He's been throwing his skill points away on Jump and cross-class skills like Intimidate!

Personally, I suspect that he has been maxing out on Climb, Craft (trapmaking), Intimdate, Jump and Move Silently. Now that Intimidate is no longer a cross-class skill, he's probably slotting as many skill points as possible to max this out to 15 ranks, which he may have done on with his 13th class level, if he devoted all his skill points on both Barbarian levels (assuming his 13th class level wa sin Barbarian) to Intimidate.

[Twilight Jack]

I've been giving some thought to comic 450 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html), where Belkar begins using the Eye of Fear and Flame (EoF&F) as a wand. It seems to me that Belkar does this through the use of Intimidate checks.

Intimidate is a d20+Skill+Cha, opposed by your opponent's d20+HD+Wis. In addition, Belkar would suffer a -4 penalty for being one size smaller than the EoF&F. (However, the EoF&F may have a lower Wis than usual for its kind, given its cowardice.)

My understand of an EoF&F is that it would generally get a +14. With the size differential, that's a +18. Thus, if Belkar has a Charisma bonus +0 (the most he likely has) and rolls a natural 20, he would beat the EoF&F (assuming Wisdom normal for its race) if it rolls a natural 1.

However, Intimidate is a cross-class skill for Rangers (though a class skill for Barbarians). Even if Belkar maxed out in that skill, he'd only have about 7-15 ranks in it. Still, this would explain why Belkar has no Skill ranks in Survival or Spot. He's been throwing his skill points away on Jump and cross-class skills like Intimidate!

Personally, I suspect that he has been maxing out on Climb, Craft (trapmaking), Intimdate, Jump and Move Silently. Now that Intimidate is no longer a cross-class skill, he's probably slotting as many skill points as possible to max this out to 15 ranks, which he may have done on with his 13th class level, if he devoted all his skill points on both Barbarian levels (assuming his 13th class level wa sin Barbarian) to Intimidate.

Yes, but please note that Intimidate checks may be prone to circumstance modifiers at the DMs discretion. In my book, ripping off the EoFaF's head and carting it around counts as one hell of a circumstance (It might additionally alter the Eye's effective size to Tiny, being only a skull now, which further adjusts the situation in Belkar's favor).

[Wrecan]

Excellent points!

[baerdith]

if he devoted all his skill points on both Barbarian levels

What makes you think he had 2 Barb levels?

[Zeb The Troll]

What makes you think he had 2 Barb levels?Well, we know for a fact he took one, and the party seems to have levelled since then so it's not outside the realm of possibilities. And he did say "assuming his 13th class level was in Barbarian". I'd say it's a reasonable speculation.

[RMS Oceanic]

While we're on the subject of Belkar, shouldn't we add the Eye of Fear and Flame to his possessions?

[Wrecan]

I can't decide if the Eye constitutes a cohort or an intelligent magic item.

[Wrecan]

I changed my mind. RMS Oceanic is correct. Belkar now owns the Eye of Fear and Flame!

[Borris]

If it takes a DC 24 Strength check to bend iron bars, and a damaged item has his break DC reduced by 2 (to 22 in this case), can we not conclude that Miko has at least a Strength of 14? Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to break the bar even with a natural 20.

Of course, she might have just hit until she'd gone through the bar's hit point but, with a haredness of 10, that hardly seems a logical choice. Then again, we're talking about Miko here.

[jindra34]

If it takes a DC 24 Strength check to bend iron bars, and a damaged item has his break DC reduced by 2 (to 22 in this case), can we not conclude that Miko has at least a Strength of 14? Otherwise, she wouldn't have been able to break the bar even with a natural 20.

Of course, she might have just hit until she'd gone through the bar's hit point but, with a haredness of 10, that hardly seems a logical choice. Then again, we're talking about Miko here.

Thog was breaking Miko was sundering

[Borris]

As to Borris' analysis of Redcloak's (sort of) turning, from 413 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html), the newbie paladins are all stationed behind the walls, with "the rest" guarding the throne room. Depending on Hinjo's standard for "newbie", that implies that all of the Sapphire Martyrs are at least 2nd level base, maybe more. From comments about the elite soldiers that Vaarsuvius buffed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), and the prisoners recruited to fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html), I would assume that a "newbie" was anyone under 5th level, and of course some of the Martyrs will be higher yet.

Good point there. It's a good thing I occasionally go back to see if I didn't miss anything. Since all the newbie paladins are stationned outside, the ones inside must at least be 2nd-level (probably at least 4th or 5th, but let's err on the side of safety for now).

Each ghost-martyr counts as his level plus four for the purpose of turn/rebuke attempts. Since Redcloak can destroy as much as five at once, that means an equivalent of 30 hit dice of deathless. The maximum number of hit dice he can affect is still 2d6 + cleric level + Charisma modifier. With a 12 on his roll, he'd still have needed a total of 18 for Cleric level + Cha modifier. We already know he's at least a 15th-level Cleric, so either he's higher level than we thought or he has a Charisma score of at least 16. Both are probably higher. He destroyed 5 ghost-martyrs twice, and he can't plausibly have rolled a 12 while facing 5 2nd-level paladins twice in that one combat.


In any case, he makes Ghost-Martyrs go POOF! at least four times: twice in 459 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), once in 461 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), and once in 462 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). Barring the Extra Turning feat (which I doubt he has), we know he has a Cha score of at least 12.

[Wrecan]

she wouldn't have been able to break the bar even with a natural 20.

Of course, she might have just hit until she'd gone through the bar's hit point but, with a haredness of 10, that hardly seems a logical choice. Then again, we're talking about Miko here.

Um... if she can't break the bar even with a natural 20, how is sunder attacks not the logical choice? It appears to be her only choice. And if, as we suspect, she has Power Attack, it's not illogical at all.

[baerdith]

I think Runolfr needs to update the main page. Thank Soon!!

[Wrecan]

I just noticed that before turning invisible, V mentioned being out of "potions and scrolls", so I've eliminated all potions and scrolls from V's item list.

[Tyrmatt]

Just felt I'd mention that Redcloak clearly has a greater than average Charisma score, due to him being the High Priest of the Dark One. You can't sway the masses into holy crusades and to battle without having a half decent charisma.

[Porthos]

Just felt I'd mention that Redcloak clearly has a greater than average Charisma score, due to him being the High Priest of the Dark One. You can't sway the masses into holy crusades and to battle without having a half decent charisma.

Also there is the high number of turn "undead"'s he belted out. :smallsmile:

[Amon Star]

In comic 467, :haley: called :vaarsuvius: the post powerful party member. Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.

What does everyone else think?

[Alfryd]

Barring the Extra Turning feat (which I doubt he has)...
Why not? It seems a logical choice for a cleric handling large numbers of semi-intelligent undead.

Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.
Couldn't say. Well-built wizards are generally rather powerful in any case.

[TroyXavier]

I think it's just a reference to wizards in general.

[Fighteer]

Yes, but please note that Intimidate checks may be prone to circumstance modifiers at the DMs discretion. In my book, ripping off the EoFaF's head and carting it around counts as one hell of a circumstance (It might additionally alter the Eye's effective size to Tiny, being only a skull now, which further adjusts the situation in Belkar's favor).
Pardon me for coming into this particular discussion a bit late, but since undead are immune to all mind-affecting effects (including fear), and intimidate doesn't work on creatures immune to fear, Belkar cannot have made a successful intimidate check against the EoFaF under RAW.

Of course, since Rich decided for the sake of humor to house-rule an EoFaF that can in fact get scared, he's effectively thrown the rulebook out of the window, so it's improper to make any assumptions about Belkar's skill ranks on the basis of this situation.

Back to Miko - the dead hobgoblin's head being used to kill the other one is clearly also dramatic license (and continues a running joke, as Rich likes to have falling/flying heads kill things). Unless she has vorpal feet, her kick would merely kill the cleric, not decapitate it. As an expression of game mechanics, the situation could indicate that Miko has the Cleave feat, but is more likely simply an alternative form of multiple attacks, since she gets a minimum of three from her BAB: one (with Power Attack) to kill the cleric, and the other two to take out the hobbos.

[Twilight Jack]

Pardon me for coming into this particular discussion a bit late, but since undead are immune to all mind-affecting effects (including fear), and intimidate doesn't work on creatures immune to fear, Belkar cannot have made a successful intimidate check against the EoFaF under RAW.

Of course, since Rich decided for the sake of humor to house-rule an EoFaF that can in fact get scared, he's effectively thrown the rulebook out of the window, so it's improper to make any assumptions about Belkar's skill ranks on the basis of this situation.

I disagree. What would be improper is to make any assumptions about another skeletal undead's susceptibility to fear. Belkar asked the EoFaF about whether or not he got scared. Belkar then knew that the normal immunity didn't apply. Then we get to the Intimidate checks about which I was theorizing. Deriving a possible investment of ranks in Intimidate from that exchange isn't out of line, since the EoFaF told us that he was not immune to fear and thus an exception to the rules as written.

Belkar's behavior and skill set in that comic aren't exceptions, the EoFaF is the exception.

We can still geek on Belkar's stats based upon what we learn from that comic.

[Fighteer]

I disagree. What would be improper is to make any assumptions about another skeletal undead's susceptibility to fear. Belkar asked the EoFaF about whether or not he got scared. Belkar then knew that the normal immunity didn't apply. Then we get to the Intimidate checks about which I was theorizing. Deriving a possible investment of ranks in Intimidate from that exchange isn't out of line, since the EoFaF told us that he was not immune to fear and thus an exception to the rules as written.

Belkar's behavior and skill set in that comic aren't exceptions, the EoFaF is the exception.

We can still geek on Belkar's stats based upon what we learn from that comic.
I'd say that we can pretty well bank on Belkar having Intimidate as a skill regardless of the evidence in the strip with the EoFaF - I'm just saying that you shouldn't use such an obviously non-canonical situation as a basis of proof.

[Twilight Jack]

I'd say that we can pretty well bank on Belkar having Intimidate as a skill regardless of the evidence in the strip with the EoFaF - I'm just saying that you shouldn't use such an obviously non-canonical situation as a basis of proof.

And I'm saying that the part of the situation that was non-canonical had nothing to do with Belkar, so his actions in the encounter can be taken into consideration without concern. Only the EoFaF's abilities are a divergence from the rules.

[Fighteer]

And I'm saying that the part of the situation that was non-canonical had nothing to do with Belkar, so his actions in the encounter can be taken into consideration without concern. Only the EoFaF's abilities are a divergence from the rules.
For all we know, it could have been house-ruled to automatically fail against any Intimidate check, trained or not.

[Twilight Jack]

For all we know, it could have been house-ruled to automatically fail against any Intimidate check, trained or not.

Booyah! I concede the point. Because of the divergence from the RAW, it is quite possible that Elan could have pulled it off just as easily, had he a mind to do so, and we'd be wrong to theorize Intimidate ranks for Elan from it.

Nope, I see where you're going with it. And you're right.

[Chronos]

In comic 467, :haley: called :vaarsuvius: the post powerful party member. Now, this could just be Red's opinion, or it could be an indicator that Bolteralot is a higher level than the others.

What does everyone else think?Back at the up a level, down a level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) strip, Haley and Vaarsuvius each gained an odd-numbered level (since Haley's Sneak Attack improved, and Vaarsuvius gained a new spell level, both of which occur at odd levels). So if Vaarsuvius were higher level than Haley, then e would have to be at least two levels higher. Meanwhile, in the inn after Dorukan's Dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html), Vaarsuvius again levels at the same time as (most of) the rest of the party (and before Belkar). Each subsequent level takes more experience at higher levels, so V levelling simultaneously with Haley twice in a row is good evidence that they're the same level, and V is certainly not two full levels ahead of Haley.

I think that "most powerful party member" must therefore either be a token of respect towards wizards in general, or a reflection of the fact that, of all the Order, Vaarsuvius is really the only one with an optimized build (I mean, really, a brainy fighter? A halfling ranger/barbarian?).

[PsyBlade]

Optimized? Everyone (except MAYBE Haley) isn't optimized. He's a blastomancer. Blastomancers are inferior to Conjurers. A Conjurer could've held that breach for a day. He didn't and is now hiding because of it.

[Morty]

Optimized? Everyone (except MAYBE Haley) isn't optimized. He's a blastomancer. Blastomancers are inferior to Conjurers. A Conjurer could've held that breach for a day. He didn't and is now hiding because of it.

He could've held that breach for a day as a conjurer*spit*:smallyuk: and that's the exact reason why V isn't conjurer. Besides, V is a wizard. So he's automatically more optimized than everyone else.

[Amon Star]

I don't want my comment to start an argument over who's the most/least optimized character. And frankly, I'm the last person you want to talk to about optimization. Wise fighter with Strength as a Dump Stat, anyone?

Anywho, I thought :durkon: would be the most Optimized Character. Everyone keeps going on about Codzilla, whatever that means, & I remember I while back there was a lot of criticism about :vaarsuvius:'s poor spell choices.

[Post]

Poor spell choices? She took Disentegrate and Bigby's something hand for her 6th level spells, right?

[Kurald Galain]

Obviously, V takes every possible opportunity to repeatedly and in colorful language point out how magnificently powerful he is. Haley has enough of a sense motive (given V's negative bluff modifier) to realize that this is no attempt at deception, and indeed what V believes. Therefore she takes it for the truth.

[Setra]

Poor spell choices? She took Disentegrate and Bigby's something hand for her 6th level spells, right?
It's mostly because V banned Conjuration.

That's a pretty bad spell choice in itself.

[Morty]

It's mostly because V banned Conjuration.

That's a pretty bad spell choice in itself.

Mechanically, yes. From narrative point of view, it's actually good choice, as many Conjuration spells look quite stupid and/or can screw the whole scene/storyline.

[Setra]

Mechanically, yes. From narrative point of view, it's actually good choice, as many Conjuration spells look quite stupid and/or can screw the whole scene/storyline.
Oh I know it's good from a Narrative point, but I thought the discussion was about optimization?

[Felistor]

What makes the V-man so powerful is not as much her character build as her player, who seems to be the most experienced of the group, as well as the local rules lawyer.

Roy's player can't remember Attack of Opportunity rules, and is obviously all about the role playing.
Belkar's player is TRYING to min-max combat stats, but doesn't see the point in (as a Ranger) putting skill ranks in Spot or Survival, and he really isn't that good at min-maxing even for combat (he apparently picked Ranger to start as, just because of the Two-weapon fighting, when everybody knows you can be better at that sort of thing as a Fighter, and then he went on to switch to Barbarian for the rage ability), which means that however much of a shoeless God of War Belkar is, he isn't really a powerful character elsewhere.
Durkon would be a great warrior (and arguably the most powerful character -- clerics ARE the most powerful core class after all) if his player had a better head for numbers, and wasn't always forgetting to add the proper bonuses.

Vaarsuvius' player, on the other hand, knows everything from the more obscure uses of prestidigitation (which can indeed be used to clean owlbear guts off oneself), to the metagame laws governing random encounters, and she has the foresight to stock up on low-priced heroism potions and to scribe obscure scrolls like those used to banish extraplanar creatures.

In short, Vaarsuvius has been far more effective than any other OOTS character, not because she has a more optimized build, but because her player knows the game better, and is aware of (and can compensate for) her weaknesses.

Because V-man has been devastatingly effective in all their combat encounters so far, Haley (who probably hasn't seen his character sheet) thinks of him as the most powerful character in the party.

[Morty]

Oh I know it's good from a Narrative point, but I thought the discussion was about optimization?

Well, yeah. My apologies, I'm allergic to Conjuration.
And anyway, if you look at the strips, it's V who causes the most destruction. Durkon goes rampage with Thor's might from time to time and Roy along with Belkar are doing very well on regular basis, but V killed chimera, dragon, blasted the whole group of ogres, and so on. So s/he can sure be named "the most powerful member of the group".

[Chronos]

For that matter, banning Conjurations wasn't a bad choice when the character was created. Remember, the Order were all generated in 3.0, and then converted to 3.5, and V chose es prohibited school before then. In 3.0, an evoker could give up Conjuration or Transmutation, or any two of Enchantment, Abjuration, or Illusion, or any three schools. Giving up one school wasn't a bad choice, compared to giving up two or three, and Transmutation is arguably more useful than Conjuration (especially considering that in 3.0, Teleport and its kin were Transmutation). But then, 3.5 came along, and all specializations required giving up two schools. V had already committed to giving up Conjuration, and had to choose one other school to which e had previously had access to also give up, and apparently chose Necromancy. This also explains how it is that e has Vampiric Touch in es spellbook, despite it being prohibited: E wrote that spell in es book back in 3.0, when e was still able to cast it, and even now that e can't, it's still in es book.

As for Belkar being min/maxed for combat, remember, he's a halfling. Thog is min/maxed well for combat, but no halfling melee build can ever really be optimized.

[silvadel]

I find it really odd that Redcloak has "no evidence" for his int despite him being a confirmed geek who knows the periodic table while Xykon has a 14+ for int despite his absent-mindedness because he can "create diabolical plans."

If anything redcloak has been developing the plans and should have the int bonus while Xykon has at best no evidence of a higher than normal int score.

[Post]

Since he wears no armor, I'd say a Dexterity bonus is sensible. He survived a beatdown by Miko and Soon in close quaters too, right? Maybe a con Bonus too.

[vegetablevoice]

From Xykon vs. Soon, we know that Xykon has Maximize Spell.

[Porthos]

Haley states that her movement speed is faster than Hinjo or Durkon. Durkon's speed is obvious, because he is a dwarf, but this means that Hinjo is wearing at least Medium Armor.

Alternatively, it could mean that Haley took a feat from somewhere to increase her base speed, but that is the less likely of the of the two options in my opinion. :smallsmile:

[Wrecan]

468 gave us confirmation that Belkar ha a good Hide skill and also reveals that Elan did not put a lot of ranks in Hide (implying he put some ranks in Hide).

[Twilight Jack]

Since he wears no armor, I'd say a Dexterity bonus is sensible. He survived a beatdown by Miko and Soon in close quaters too, right? Maybe a con Bonus too.

Well, goblins in the RAW do get a +2 bonus to Dexterity, so I'd say it's actually rather likely. If Redcloak has a low score, it's in Strength.

[Quietus]

Interesting. I read that strip to mean that it went from no bonus to a +5 bonus. I read that as a 25% increase in chance to hit (say, going from needing a 15 to hit, to only needing a 10, thus increasing your chances from 25% to 50%). Going from a +4 to a +5 would only be a 5% increase (going from 45% to 50% chance).

I'll agree with this, for one major reason :
Shatter. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shatter.htm)

It only works on nonmagical objects, suggesting that Roy's sword was nonmagical when they first fought Xykon, since he did, indeed, shatter it. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html)

[Post]

Well, goblins in the RAW do get a +2 bonus to Dexterity, so I'd say it's actually rather likely. If Redcloak has a low score, it's in Strength.

Why's Redcloak's Dexterity listed as 10(No evidence), then?

[Twilight Jack]

Why's Redcloak's Dexterity listed as 10(No evidence), then?

The only justifiable reason of which I can think is that Dex is a common dump stat for clerics. In the DMG the standard NPC Cleric begins with a Dex of 8 before modifications for race, level, and magic items. Since all the NPCs start with a stat distribution of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, the low score has to go somewhere. For most clerics, Dex is the least useful stat. I think Redcloak threw his dump into Strength, though. That would explain why he wears no armor and uses only magic to fight.

[Chronos]

I was just looking through some of the old comics, and I noticed that we have hard evidence for Elan being 21 years old. When Nale kidnaps Julia (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html), he says that he's five years older than she is, and she's elsewhere established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0338.html) as being 16. And Nale and Elan are of course the same age.

[Sir_Norbert]

We also know Haley is 24. Roy is probably 28 (he was in his third year of college seven years ago -- Origins). Durkon's story in Origins starts 17 years ago and he's already adult, so he's older than any of the humans but we can't say any more than that. V-man was born "more than a century ago" (and therefore less than two centuries, or the speaker would have said so).

[Vargtass]

I suppose 469 means that Belkar is Barbarian 2 (evasion)?

EDIT: I guess I was wrong... So, bonus feat, then?

[Glorfindel]

Barbarians don't get evasion at 2nd level, they get Uncanny Dodge.

[AtomicKitKat]

We already knew Belkar had to have been Ranger 9+ by the time he took Barbarian 1. Latest comic just cements it with Evasion.

[RMS Oceanic]

We can also cement that Belkar has ranks in Intimidate, and that's what he used to get the EoFaF to do his bidding.

[Glorfindel]

We already knew Belkar had to have been Ranger 9+ by the time he took Barbarian 1. Latest comic just cements it with Evasion.Belkar got Evasion in comic #1. 3.0 Rangers didn't receive Evasion as a bonus (feat).

[Glorfindel]

We can also cement that Belkar has ranks in Intimidate, and that's what he used to get the EoFaF to do his bidding.Well, cement ... Intimidate can be used untrained. But in my opinion, Belkar does indeed have ranks (probably maxed out) in Intimidate.

[Post]

And remove the Eye from Belkar's inventory.

[Twilight Jack]

What level was Belkar when he first multiclassed to Barbarian? Is it probable that he's not taken any more Ranger levels since then? We've seen the party level up a few times, but not enough to get them from 7th level to 13th, so it's a safe assumption that they've leveled up off-screen as well. I think it may be a probable assumption that Belkar's kept taking Barbarian levels, and has left Ranger kicking it in the 8th-9th level range. If he only recently picked up Ranger9, then his Evasion is new, and he's clocking in at Ranger9/Barbarian4.

This seems more likely to me than the spread currently on this thread.

[Felistor]

Belkar was already Ranger 10 well before the strip began, so he has had evasion ever since the conversion to 3.5 in OOTS #1.

My interpretation is that Belkar's player missed the fact that 3.5 Rangers have evasion back when the initial update was done, and only just corrected that fact recently (hence this is the first Reflex save to avoid damage that Belkar has made since his player realized that he should have Evasion).

It is just one of those things that happens in D&D games all the time.

Player 1: "Yes! made the reflex save"
DM: "In that case you only take half damage."
Player 2: "Wait, aren't you a ranger?"
Player 1: "Yeah"
Player 2: "Rangers get evasion in 3.5"
Player 1: "Awesome" (corrects character sheet) "In that case I take no damage"

[Twilight Jack]

Belkar was already Ranger 10 well before the strip began, so he has had evasion ever since the conversion to 3.5 in OOTS #1.

Upon what do you base this assertion? Your specialization in Divination?

[Post]

Well... if Belkar wanted to try and save the bleeding broken body of his Class optimization, I would say Ranger 11, for the Improved Two Weapon fighting and Barbarian 2 for Uncanny dodge.

And I think this strip gives even more support to Belkar's favored enemy(goblinoid)

[Glorfindel]

What level was Belkar when he first multiclassed to Barbarian? Is it probable that he's not taken any more Ranger levels since then? We've seen the party level up a few times, but not enough to get them from 7th level to 13th, so it's a safe assumption that they've leveled up off-screen as well. I think it may be a probable assumption that Belkar's kept taking Barbarian levels, and has left Ranger kicking it in the 8th-9th level range. If he only recently picked up Ranger9, then his Evasion is new, and he's clocking in at Ranger9/Barbarian4.

This seems more likely to me than the spread currently on this thread.

The Giant confirmed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639) that Belkar has 11 levels in classes which have a d8 hit die. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html) Belkar says that he has no other classes than Ranger or Barbarian.

Conclusion --> Belkar has at least 11 Ranger levels, as indicated in the first post.

[Zone]

Roy needed at least 17 strenght to carry Durkon in strip X. What about Haley, she's carrying Belkar, and she can still run?

[PsyBlade]

Belkar weighs 30lbs. Can't remember which strips it's made note of.

[Dunamin]

Belkar weighs 30lbs. Can't remember which strips it's made note of.
I think it's after his "hanging" in the bandit camp.

Edit: Yup, comic 165.

[Morty]

Even earlier: Roy mentions it in #87. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html)

[BardicLasher]

SoD Spoilers!

Redcloak!
Domains (Destruction). Redcloak uses both Smite and Disintegrate in this book.

Xykon
Add Soul Bind, Cloudkill, and Energy Drain to spells known. Also, he has some sort of spell to put Eugene Greenhilt in a bubble.

Also, I propose Redcloak has max ranks in Knowledge Religion and Knowledge The Planes.

One other point I'd like to make is that Xykon was venerable when he became a lich, giving him a +3 Int, wis, cha and huge penalties to Str and Dex.

[Post]

+3 to Wisdom and int? He must have had pathetic wisdom to start with.

[BardicLasher]

+3 to Wisdom and int? He must have had pathetic wisdom to start with.

Well, as a teenager, he failed math three times, and he admits that he has a poor attention span... So it's not necesarrily that he just doesn't care. He's probably actually ADD-ish or something. So yeah... I can see him gooing through life with 8 int and wis. He DOES seem to have good STR, as seen in the scene where he fights Fyron, and his dex is high enough that he never seems to miss on rays, ever.

[Setra]

Wait..

If Xykon had 8 Wis and 8 Int or so, but High Charisma...

Wouldn't that make him an Evil Elan, of sorts?

[PsyBlade]

Wait..

If Xykon had 8 Wis and 8 Int or so, but High Charisma...

Wouldn't that make him an Evil Elan, of sorts?

Scary thought.

[Iranon]

So all in all, Xykon is getting a +5 bonus to each and every mental stat after lichdom?

That makes me really curious about his ability scores while he was alive. Powerful caster with spectactularly low INT and/or WIS = recipe for hilarity.

[Post]

Hmmm, so he buffed up His Dex and Charisma at the cost of his wisdom... Eh, he may even be the only proper min maxed character in the comic.

[Glorfindel]

Xykon
Also, he has some sort of spell to put Eugene Greenhilt in a bubble.
You mean (Otiluke's) Resilient Sphere? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm)

[Kreistor]

You list Haley with Manyshot. There's no link to reference where she got it. If it's from the Origins book, I haven't seen that. Reading 470, I don't think she has Manyshot.

Frame 11 clearly shows Haley moving and shooting, Manyshot is a standard action, so she would be able to move and Manyshot here, but she's shown only taking one shot. Shot on the Run doesn't help her here, since she'd move the same distance with it and a regular Move then Shoot action sequence.

The Giant is being a little liberal with move actions, but I don't think there's anything there that demonstrates Manyshot. Frame 13 is the only candidate (she would not be able to Manyshot for three arrows yet with BAB 9). That frame may indicate a >30' range, so she gives up on Rapid Shot to bring her attack roll up by two to cover the loss of PBS to range.

[BardicLasher]

You list Haley with Manyshot. There's no link to reference where she got it. If it's from the Origins book, I haven't seen that. Reading 470, I don't think she has Manyshot.


http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html "I'm so glad I took Manyshot."



And Glorfindel... Yes. That seems right.

[Morty]

We know that Haley's got Manyshot from here. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)
EDIT: Damn you, simu-ninjas!

[Wrecan]

Thanks, guys! I added the manyshot link to Haley's sheet!

[Vargtass]

From Belkar's behaviour in 469, can we conclude that it's probable that his third favoured enemy race is Humanoid(goblin)?

As it stands now, Humanoid(human) and Humanoid(reptilian) are listed as probable, but the third is only given as other.

[Chronos]

Actually, I'd figure his favored enemies as Reptilian +4, Giant +4, Goblinoid +2.

Evidence for Reptilian:
He and Yikyik hate each other on sight, and start fighting already when they're still nominally teamed up.
He beats Yikyik very thoroughly, and without taking much damage himself, suggesting he had some particular advantage in that fight.
He offers a significant monetary reward for the inn-stayers to not just kill Yokyok, but to inflict extra pain on him.
Within five minutes of meeting the Oracle, the Oracle has already made it onto his Top Five list of people to kill.

Evidence for Giant:
Roy's bluff about giants guarding the Starmetal is particularly effective against Belkar.
He's willing to commit a good deed (rescuing the dirt farmers), something he's ordinarily loathe to do, just to hear the satisfying "thump" of giants hitting the ground.
It would fit in well with his size insecurity issues.

Evidence for Goblinoid:
His speech in 469
His effectiveness versus them outside the walls, which seems to be greater even than one would expect from level 13 vs. level 1.
The fact that he's fought a lot of them before, in Dorukan's dungeon, so it'd be a pragmatic choice.

Evidence for Human:
Two of the top five on his kill list are human

Evidence for Elf or Magical Beast:
One each of the top five on his kill list are an Elf and a magical beast.

Altogether, I think the evidence is strongest for Reptilian, Giant, and Goblinoid, and stronger for the first two than the third.


Also, can we say anything from the awesomeness Haley displayed in 470? We already knew she had Tumble and various archery-related feats, but what about shooting down that tower? I'm thinking that reflects either Knowledge (engineering), liberal DMing, or great luck.

[Aducabar]

In the light of 470 I think it is safe to assume that Haley has Shot on the Run feat, and all of it's requirements.

[Jasdoif]

SoD Spoilers!

Redcloak!
Domains (Destruction). Redcloak uses both Smite and Disintegrate in this book.He also casts hold monster (at the circus manticore), making his other domain Law.

Cleric restrictions on alignment domains mean that Redcloak's alignment has a Lawful component.

[Chronos]

He also casts hold monster (at the circus manticore), making his other domain Law.That's odd, if so, since he seemed a bit surprised by the Azure City High Priest having that same spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). Were it not for the stronger evidence in the book, I would take his surprise in "Saved Game" as (circumstantial) evidence that he does not have the Law domain.

[Jasdoif]

That's odd, if so, since he seemed a bit surprised by the Azure City High Priest having that same spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html). Were it not for the stronger evidence in the book, I would take his surprise in "Saved Game" as (circumstantial) evidence that he does not have the Law domain.Slightly odd, but not too far out there. Consider that all Redcloak knew about the guy was that he was high priest. The possibility of an obscure prestige class or other source then the Law domain granting hold monster was a possibility.

[Castamir]

Belkar's hatred towards anything being a proof of something? No way. I don't really see him hating any single species of sentient living beings capable of feeling pain more than any other.

He's not a racist here. :smallamused:

With very little of evidence, I got a feeling he's got Favored Enemy: Human, but only based on his prey pre-OOTS.

[Post]

He was outraged when the Oracle turned out to be 'a Friggin Kobold'.

[BardicLasher]

He was outraged when the Oracle turned out to be 'a Friggin Kobold'.

Probably because it seems so anticlimactic.

[Post]

And his extreme dislike for Yik-Yik?

[Chronos]

I don't really see him hating any single species of sentient living beings capable of feeling pain more than any other.Except that we know that there are three species of living beings which he does hate more than others. The trick is just in figuring out which three. His general psychopathy towards everything does make it a bit more difficult to figure out, though.

Further on the possibility of him favoring humanoids (humans), BTW: An argument in favor is his frequent happy comments about dead humans ("Wow, it's like my birthday", and the "heh heh, dead humans" in the most recent comic). On the other hand, all of the folks he likes (approximately) are also humans: Elan for making him laugh, Shojo for making paladins clean the litter box, Haley, Mrs. Butterworth, and Hermione Granger, after whom he lusts, etc. I think any appearance of Belkar hating humans more than other species is just a consequence of humans being so common.

[TheFallenOne]

You can up Roys strength to 18, I redid my calculations I made a while ago and it seems I made a mistake. Most likely I forgot Roys armor.
When Roy is carrying Durkon he has to carry the following things:

On Durkon:
Warhammer 5 lb
Full Plate 50 lb
Heavy Steel Shield 15 lb
Holy symbol 1 lb
Durkons clothing: at least 2 lb(clothing doesn’t cound against the weight you can carry but this should only apply to the person actually wearing it)
Summ: 73+ lb

Durkon himself: 130+(2d4)x(2d6) lb Average 165 lb

On Roy:
Greatsword 8 lb
Medium Steel Armor: at least 30 lb
Summ: 38 lb

Overall Summ: 276+

To carry this as a heavy load he must have at least a strength of 18. If he also carries at least 25 pounds of “miscalleanous stuff” he needs strength 19. I listed only the things we can actually see on them because they maybe carry their other stuff in bags of holding. From strip 15 we know that everyone has a bedroll, weighing 5 lb each. But I can’t find evidence for enough stuff to raise Roys strength to a definite 19.


Also, some evidence on Elan: look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html
Considering his armor check penalty of –2 he got a 6 with d20+dex bonus+move silently rank. Since we placed his minimum dexterity at 14 he must have put 3 or less skill points into move silently.

[Wrecan]

To carry this as a heavy load he must have at least a strength of 18.
Ignoring the bag of tricks, booty talsiman, and bag of useless potions (which he may not have had last time he dragged Durkon), Roy is only encumbered by medium armor (probably breastplate at 30 lbs.) and a greatsword (8 lbs.)

The only things we know for certain Durkon owned when Roy dragged him about was full plate (50 lbs.), a heavy shield (15 lbs.), holy symbol (1 lb.) and a warhammer (5 lbs.). Although Durkon would get a free set of clothes, we haven't actually seen him wearing anything but his armor.

Since, we're trying to come up with the least amount of Strength we would need to carry Durkon, we need to look at the lightest that DUrkon could possibly be, which is 134 lbs. Now, Durkon is probably more, but we don't deal in probably, generally.

So the least amount of weight Roy would have to carry is 243 lbs. That puts Roy definitvely in the Str 17 category, with 17 pounds to spare. Now, chances are, Durkon is heavier than minimum. When someone mentions his weight, we can readjust the numbers. Until then, Roy's strength is equal or greater than 17.


Also, some evidence on Elan: look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html
Considering his armor check penalty of –2 he got a 6 with d20+dex bonus+move silently rank. Since we placed his minimum dexterity at 14 he must have put 3 or less skill points into move silently.
That's a good question. I thought Elan was commenting on the number of the die, not the number after adjustments for ranks and so forth. But then he would have said "I rolled a 4". "I got a 4" king of indicates what you get after adding modifications. I don't know if that's definitive enough though. Anybody else?

[Jasdoif]

That's a good question. I thought Elan was commenting on the number of the die, not the number after adjustments for ranks and so forth. But then he would have said "I rolled a 4". "I got a 4" king of indicates what you get after adding modifications. I don't know if that's definitive enough though. Anybody else?"I got a 4!" could easily mean "I got a 4 on my roll!" Besides which, any conclusion based on Elan's understanding of terminology is highly suspect.

[TheFallenOne]

Well somebody else said "I got a 24", so at least that person meant the actual skill check and not the dice roll and most likely it's the same with Elan

[Wrecan]

That's an excellent point. Okay, the comment "I got a 24" seems to me pretty conclusive that we're discussing modified rolls, not the number on the die.

Although, to be fair, since he could roll no lower than 1, and he gets a +2 from Dex, he either has zero or one rank in Move Silently (assuming he hasn't boosted it in the three levels he earned since comic 90) in order to get a 4 on his Move Silently check. Since he has earned about 15 skill points in the last three levels, who knows what his Move Silently ranks might be?

[RMS Oceanic]

From Comic 471, Elan is immune to damage from broken glass, in order to improve a dramatic entrance by breaking through a window.

[Wrecan]

I concur. Elan is updated!

[Chrismith]

From SoD, we can pin down Roy's current age as 24: he was 8 years old when Julia (now 16) was born. This means when we saw Roy in college seven years ago, he was 17 -- a little young, perhaps, but not unreasonably so.

[Sir_Norbert]

Except that he's in his third year of college (Origins, page 30).

[PsyBlade]

Perfectly reasonable in a Medieval setting. Most people were adults at 14 during Middle Ages.

[RMS Oceanic]

If you look in my timeline thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35936), the Giant confirms what he wrote in No Cure for the Paladin blues that Roy (and Miko) is 28 at the comic's start.

[BardicLasher]

We can pin down Roy's age as 28-29, NOT 24. In the "21 years ago" part of SoD, Eugene refers to his son as "almost 8 years old"

[Chrismith]

We can pin down Roy's age as 28-29, NOT 24. In the "21 years ago" part of SoD, Eugene refers to his son as "almost 8 years old"

You're right; I hadn't realized that part of the book took place 21 years ago. That does mean, however, that the child Roy's mother is pregnant with in that section is not Julia. Perhaps a child that died....or perhaps a long-lost sibling?

[Kurald Galain]

Speaking of Julia, I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to draw up stats for her, but can we posit that her int is higher than Nale's? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html

[Chronos]

I think all we actually know about Julia is that she's a human female wizard, 16 years old, and that she has access to the schools of Evocation and Necromancy. My hunch is that she's specialized in Enchantment (it seems to fit her "Hey, pay attention to me!" style), but that, like anything else about her, is speculation.

[BardicLasher]

Speaking of Julia, I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to draw up stats for her, but can we posit that her int is higher than Nale's? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html

Well, as Nale need Cha, Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis (I'd say) wheras Julia problably neds Int, Con, Dex, and can ignore the other three (but certainly has high cha) I'd assume Julia is smarter than Nale.

[Chronos]

Update from the latest comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html): Thor's Lightning isn't completely controllable, and can unintentionally hit friendlies (and Durkon did recognize that Lien was on his side). It's therefore not a renamed Chain Lightning (which hits only who you want it to), and so Durkon's domain isn't Air (nor any other core-rules domain). I think someone mentioned something about a Weather domain from one of the expanded rulebooks; that might account for the lightning spell and Control Weather. Or it might be a homebrew domain.

[Wrecan]

I'm guessing a homebrew domain containing Enlarge Person and Lightning Bolt.

[Chronos]

Nah, Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) is a perfectly good non-domain cleric spell that does the same thing as (and has a similar name to) Thor's Might. If it were Enlarge Person, Durkon would be able to cast it on others, too, and it wouldn't be nearly as powerful.

But Thor's Lightning does seem to behave more like Lightning Bolt than anything else (Call Lightning is also aimable, and gives you one bolt/round). Except that if Lien had gotten grazed by a Lightning Bolt, it'd do 5d6 damage, and you'd think that would be more significant than what we saw (she's not at all upset about it, and she doesn't get any new damage marks).

[Wrecan]

You're right. It wouldn't be Enlarge Person. I'm guessing Thor's might is the Domain version of Righteous Might. And 5d6 might not be so much if Durkon rolled low, she saved (good for paladin's divine grace) and is high enough level to have many hit points.

[Chronos]

I was already assuming that she saved, since he "singed her a bit". A full hit would be 10d6. And Thor's Might doesn't need to be a domain spell at all; anyone's free to rename any of their class features for purposes of flavor. We're already guessing that one of Durkon's domains is War (to save him the trouble of burning a feat on Warhammer proficiency), and Righteous Might and a lightning spell wouldn't seem to fit well together in the same domain. So I'm guessing warhammer proficiency from one domain, lightning from the other, and Thor's Might just as an ordinary cleric spell.

[lord_khaine]

i think you are overdoing the "singet a bit", it didnt sing her hard enough to leave a new damage mark, so this might as well just be fluff for her standing just outside the area of xd6 points of electric damage, its not like Rick doesnt like to make fun of the rules.

[Castamir]

Xykon must be at least level 20, unless there is a way of exceeding your spells known I'm not aware of. He knows at least three lvl9 spells: Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain, Soul Bind.

He cast 7 of these in one fight, too -- but with a sorcerer's CHA, this doesn't bring any new information.

This puts his minimum effective level at 24... not something a sane level 13 fighter jumps to...

[Felistor]

The Domains of Thor and Durkon:

The only clear and unambiguous evidence we have for Durkon's domains are the fact that he can cast at least one type of lightning spell.

It is really irrelevant for our purposes whether a domain has Control Weather or Righteous Might (and shouting "Thor's Might" is clearly just Durkon's preferred way of casting Righteous Might), because those are vanilla cleric spells, and they would be on Durkon's spell list regardless of what his two domains are.

Obviously, whatever domains Durkon has are granted by Thor, but since the OOTS Thor has been specifically stated (by Rich) to be different from the Deities & Demigods Thor, we can't draw any conclusions from the domains that Thor granted (after all the Deities & Demigods Thor didn't take lawful good clerics either, and the OOTS Thor specifically does).

What we need to do, therefore, are consider the possible domains that might give Durkon the ability to cast lightning spells, and decide which one is most likely.


3.5 Domains with Chain Lightning:
Air Domain (Player's Handbook page 185)

3.5 Domains with Call Lightning:
Storm Domain (Spell Compendium page 280)
Weather Domain (Complete Divine page 141)

3.5 Domains with Arc of Lightning:
Windstorm Domain (Spell Compendium page 282)

3.5 Domains with Lightning Bolt:
None (but possibly some homebrew domain).


The big problem comes when we look at the cases where Durkon has said "Thor's Lightning."

Back in OOTS #169 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html), Durkon said "Thor's Lightning" and the effect was very much like Call Lightning (a single bolt coming out of the sky), but here in OOTS #473 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html), Durkon says "Thor's Lightning" and the result looks a lot more like a Lightning Bolt (but could be interpreted as either Chain Lightning or Arc of Lightning).

What IS clear to me is that what is going on in OOTS #473 does not look anything like Call Lightning (where the lightning comes out of the sky), so Durkon must be using the same somatic component (shouting "Thor's Lightning") for more than one spell.

This suggests to me that either:

1. Durkon has TWO domains that grant lightning spells (either Air and Storm or Air and Weather), in which case what he cast in #169 was Call Lightning and what he cast in #473 was Chain Lightning.

2. Durkon has the Windstorm domain, in which case he cast Call Lightning in #169, and Arc of Lightning in #473.

3. Durkon has a homebrew domain that includes both Call Lightning and Lightning Bolt (or something else that looks awfully like Lightning Bolt).


Things to watch for:
The Windstorm domain and the Weather domain grant immunity to movement and spot/listen penalties due to rain, snow, and ice.
Storm Domain grants resistance to electricity 5.
Air Domain grants the ability to turn creatures with the [earth] descriptor as if they were undead, and rebuke creatures with the [air] descriptor.


The Warhammer of Thor and Durkon:

That the warhammer is Thor's favored weapon, and that Durkon is proficient with it goes without saying.

This does not necessarily prove that Durkon has the War Domain, however.
There are FOUR possibilities here that all deserve consideration.

1. Taking the War Domain (if Thor grants that domain) would give Durkon both the Martial Weapon (warhammer) feat and the Weapon Focus (warhammer) feat.

2. Taking the 4th level Dwarf Cleric racial substitution level (Races of Stone page 146) would give him both the Martial Weapon (warhammer) feat and a +2 damage bonus when using the warhammer in melee.

3. Taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer) feat would give him the necessary proficiency.

4. It is possible that Durkon belongs to a dwarven subrace specific to this campaign world that grants proficiency with the warhammer instead of (say) the urgrosh.


Of these four options, I consider 1 the most likely, but we should keep all four open as possibilities, and watch for more evidence.

[BardicLasher]

Considering that Durkon has never once cast ANY spell from the War domain list (unless I'm forgetting something?) I doubt that's one of his domains.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0020.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html

Using these two comics, I propose that Thor's lightning is, at times, Lightning Bolt. I propose that Durkon can use BOTH Lightning Bolt and Call Lightning, and he just calls them by the same name.

There's another option, too... He could have taken a feat to gain Lightning Bolt on his cleric list. There's a few ways to do it, and I'm sure "Initiate of Thor" would qualify if he had something like that. I do love the Initiate feats.

And I'd like to note that Dwarves don't get any auto-proficiencies. They get to count some Exotic weapons as Martial weapons.

And Castamir, there are a number of magic items and FEATS that could allow Xykon to have more spells than a normal sorc of his level. Fire Bloodline, for example, adds Meteor Swarm (Plus Cloudkill and Delayed Blast Fireball) to Sorc Spells Known, so it's entirely possible Xykon has somthing like that.

[ChopSticks28]

One thing's for sure, though; Belkar's balance skill sucks. In episode 102, he just can't keep himself standing.

[ForzaFiori]

The Domains of Thor and Durkon:

The Warhammer of Thor and Durkon:

That the warhammer is Thor's favored weapon, and that Durkon is proficient with it goes without saying.

This does not necessarily prove that Durkon has the War Domain, however.
There are FOUR possibilities here that all deserve consideration.

1. Taking the War Domain (if Thor grants that domain) would give Durkon both the Martial Weapon (warhammer) feat and the Weapon Focus (warhammer) feat.

2. Taking the 4th level Dwarf Cleric racial substitution level (Races of Stone page 146) would give him both the Martial Weapon (warhammer) feat and a +2 damage bonus when using the warhammer in melee.

3. Taking the Martial Weapon Proficiency (warhammer) feat would give him the necessary proficiency.

4. It is possible that Durkon belongs to a dwarven subrace specific to this campaign world that grants proficiency with the warhammer instead of (say) the urgrosh.


Of these four options, I consider 1 the most likely, but we should keep all four open as possibilities, and watch for more evidence.

#1 and #2 is not possible, b/c in #34 Math Is Fun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Durkon doesn't get a +1 to attack from Weapon Focus, nor does he get a +2 to damage from the level substitution.

[Chronos]

#1 and #2 is not possible, b/c in #34 Math Is Fun , Durkon doesn't get a +1 to attack from Weapon Focus, nor does he get a +2 to damage from the level substitution.Good attention to detail, there, but we don't know what bonuses Durkon got there, just which ones he forgot to add. He might well have remembered his Weapon Focus and added it already without Roy's reminder, especially since he always has that, but the others are situational.

Another point in favor of Call Lightning, by the way: In the first fight with Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Roy says "There's a storm, use Thor's Lightning!", which suggests that Thor's Lightning would be more effective if cast in a storm. Or, at least, that Roy thinks that it would be more effective: It's conceivable that Roy only knows of one divine lightning spell, and assumes that that's what Durkon's casting.

And I can't really see Durkon having two spells with the same name. He could have Thor's Lightning and Greater Thor's Lightning, or something, but it just doesn't seem like two with the same name would even work.

[Kurald Galain]

Sabine's description may need a strength boost, considering she's able to carry both Thog and Nale at the same time. I'd assume Thog to be quite heavy.

[RMS Oceanic]

Another thing to consider about Durkon is from Dungeon Crawlin Fools: Where he actually casts Call Lightning. The two may be separate spells.

I think the Storm Domain suits OotS's Thor, but we can't confirm it.

And I think the reason Weapon Focus in strip 34 never came up is because that's always active. The Bard Song/Goblinoid hatred thing is situational, and something Durkon doesn't need to take into account in every encounter.

And you're right about Sabine. Even if Nale and Thog were the lightest examples of their races, they'd weigh 270 lbs, which needs 18 strength to carry as a heavy load. I'd say it's higher, Since I doubt they're actually that light, but 18 strength is a minimum.

[Felistor]

And I can't really see Durkon having two spells with the same name. He could have Thor's Lightning and Greater Thor's Lightning, or something, but it just doesn't seem like two with the same name would even work.

The rest I agree with, but keep in mind that just because Durkon says "Thor's Lightning" when he casts a spell does not necessarily mean that "Thor's Lightning" is the name of the spell.
We have seen several cases already where a character casts a spell without using the name of the spell (as it appears in the rulebooks) as its somatic component.
The fact that Varsuuvius in particular regularly uses the rulebook name for a spell as her somatic component is a running fourth-wall joke in the comic, but it is not without exception.

[Kurald Galain]

The rest I agree with, but keep in mind that just because Durkon says "Thor's Lightning" when he casts a spell does not necessarily mean that "Thor's Lightning" is the name of the spell.

True. Otherwise, Vaarsuvius would have a spell called "Apparently" in the spellbook.

[Fawkes]

Another thing to consider about Durkon is from Dungeon Crawlin Fools: Where he actually casts Call Lightning. The two may be separate spells.
When does that happen?

And to Wrecan: As of 469 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Belkar no longer has the Eye of Fear and Flame, and apparently has Evasion.

[TroyXavier]

Which he should have since he's at least an 11th level ranger.

[Chronos]

Psst... Words are verbal components; gestures are somatic.

I think that the Giant did post somewhere that in Stickworld, the verbal component for a spell is saying its name... Ah, yes, here we go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493) (though strictly speaking, that just says that saying the name is a sufficient condition, not a necessary one). I've just been assuming that whenever we see a spell cast without being named, that the character mumbled or whispered it.

[Wrecan]

Thanks, mechafox. Evasion was already on Belkar's ability list, but I totally forgot to remove the Eye.

[Wrecan]

Haley now has possession of Roy's booty talisman and greatsword.

[silvadel]

True. Otherwise, Vaarsuvius would have a spell called "Apparently" in the spellbook.


Actually, if naming a spell were its verbal component -- spell research to make your spells sound like other spells or to say "Pretty Fireflies" whoosh.... would be a good tactic.

[Glorfindel]

According to comic #475, Belkar has 4 ranks in Profession (gourmet chef).

Also, he has at most a 9 in Wisdom ... which means that an Owl's Wisdom will raise this to 13. Not enough for a Ranger to cast CSW from a scroll. It seems that the Giant has made a mistake, right?

He could either:
- have remembered the 3.0 version of Owl's Wisdom, which adds a 1d4+1 to Wis
- have forgotten that while CSW is a level 3 Cleric spell, it is a level 4 Ranger spell
- anything else?

[Spiryt]

Seriously, it had been discussed many times, but does it even matter?

In 58 Giant probably used Cure Serious wounds, beacuse serious sounds better than moderate, when somebody was just impaled with sword.

And maybe Moderate wounds gave him more than 4 bonus. Maybe 4 was just sufficent. It's story based on D&D rules and worlds, but it doesn't have to stick to the certain numbers (14, 16 +6 bla bla) from D&D. Maybe .....

Belkar is guy with low wisdom, (is un-perceptive e.c.), but single spell made him kinda different person. That's all

This thread is fun. But we cannot expect that Giant will be writing every strip to allow somebody to write definite, coherent stats.

[lavidor10]

- anything else?

It was a one off joke?



If you really want an explanation, it's a special home-brewed version of owl's wisdom that gives a higher increase, m'kay?

[Kish]

According to comic #475, Belkar has 4 ranks in Profession (gourmet chef).

Also, he has at most a 9 in Wisdom ... which means that an Owl's Wisdom will raise this to 13. Not enough for a Ranger to cast CSW from a scroll. It seems that the Giant has made a mistake, right?

He could either:
- have remembered the 3.0 version of Owl's Wisdom, which adds a 1d4+1 to Wis
- have forgotten that while CSW is a level 3 Cleric spell, it is a level 4 Ranger spell
- anything else?
- Rich has made it clear that he bends the rules when it makes it funny, and wouldn't avoid making a very funny joke just because Owl's Wisdom wouldn't technically be enough to let Belkar cast Cure Serious Wounds.

[BardicLasher]

Empowered Owl's Wisdom would've given +6 instead of +4 right? ...Then again, V'd have said Empowered if it was.

[Wrecan]

Well, since Belkar admits to an ability score penalty, this trumps the earlier comic in which he is indicated as having a 10 Wisdom.

[cheesecake]

Psst... Words are verbal components; gestures are somatic.

I think that the Giant did post somewhere that in Stickworld, the verbal component for a spell is saying its name... Ah, yes, here we go (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=211493#post211493) (though strictly speaking, that just says that saying the name is a sufficient condition, not a necessary one). I've just been assuming that whenever we see a spell cast without being named, that the character mumbled or whispered it.

In this post Rich named V as a HE. "HE doesn't know the silent spell feat"

[Wrecan]

It's a generic pronoun. Rich has said many times that the use of a specific pronoun is not evidence of V's gender. Please let's not import the gender debate into this thread.

And I've given Belkar his ring of jumping back.

[Kreistor]

Empower only affects random elements in a spell, so it does nothing to Bull's Strength, which is a flat +4 instead of 3.0's 1D4+1, which it did work with.

Yes, the Giant has created an inconsistency, unfortunately.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, you do get an ability score decrease every fourth level, so Belkar obviously spent his on Wisdom.

...what? :smallsmile:

Either that or the retraining rules.

[themunck]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html
If Zz'dtri had a 3.0 version of haste, could V have a 3.0 version of OWls wisdom?

Just a thought...

[Porthos]

Empower only affects random elements in a spell, so it does nothing to Bull's Strength, which is a flat +4 instead of 3.0's 1D4+1, which it did work with.

Yes, the Giant has created an inconsistency, unfortunately.

Nahhh, Belkar's player (or more likely V's since it was his idea) just pulled a fast one on the DM (who didn't recall at the time that CSW is a 4th level spell for Rangers).

That answer always gets us out of these inconsistencies. :smallwink:

DM: So what does that make your Wisdom?
Belkar's Player: Errr.... 13.
DM (who doesn't feel like looking up the Ranger Spell List): Well, CSW is a 3rd level spell, so sure.

After all, how many DMs get to a point in their campaigns where Rangers are actually capable of casting 4th level spells? :smalltongue:

[Felistor]

Yeah, as committed as I have been in the past to the 10 Wisdom position, this last comic should put an end to that debate once and for all.
Belkar (at least at this point), has a Wisdom penalty.

[Arteyu]

What if it was a 3rd edition ruled spell? I know Owls Wisdom did not exist back in 3.0 but, Cats Grace & Bulls Strength gave 1d4+1 back then.

So maybe the players thought spells like that should exist for every attribute, with the GM house ruling sure. Thus they have a house ruled spell that words 3.0 style.

So rolling 4+1 to get a 5....would be exactly enough to get him to 14, provided he does have a wisdom score of 9.

[Porthos]

What if it was a 3rd edition ruled spell? I know Owls Wisdom did not exist back in 3.0 but, Cats Grace & Bulls Strength gave 1d4+1 back then.

Actually, the spell was first introduced in Tome and Blood. So it was in 3.0. But you had to buy one of the booster packs splatbooks to get it. :smalltongue:

Hmmmm. Maybe V's Owl's Wisdom is a Rare card scroll from said Booster Packs (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) (as opposed to a "normal" Owl's Wisdom). After all, he'd better get something for all the gold he's plunked down on those things. :smallbiggrin:

Hey, getting a Rare (or Ultra Rare) card variation of Owl's Wisdom makes as much sense as any other explanation. :smallamused:

[skinkatlarge]

I feel so warm and validated. :smallbiggrin:

[Wrecan]

Based on the strip where he takes a new lute, I'm deleting from Elan all of the items I had previously assumed he took from Nale.

[Porthos]

The Belkar Wisdom Conundrum Solved? Apparently so.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2884448&postcount=29


Cure Serious Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm) is a 3rd level spell, 375gp, when inscribed on scrolls. And let me quote:

some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

There. So without modifying any rules, Belkar should have a wisdom of 9. Also, a wisdom score of 9 IS low. Sure, when you min-max a character, you could have ultra idiotic characters, but in OOTS, these characters tend to be more in-line with the RP. And nine is fine.

So, does his explanation past muster? Personally I think so. And I also happen to think, my friends, that is a pretty awesome example of Rules Lawyering.

Thanks for the pointer, meioziz. :smallsmile:

[NOTE: Course, the real question I have is: How did all of us miss this solution? :smalltongue: ]

[Wrecan]

This has been discussed ad nauseum.

When determining what Wisdom is needed to cast a scroll, you use the spell level as it appears on the reader's spell list (4 for Belkar) not the spell level on the scroll (3 for clerics), because scroll-reading uses the reader's spell list to determine if he can read the scroll (which is why rangers can read clerical spells at all).

Belkar needed a 14 Wisdom to read the scroll.

However, it is now clear that strip was just for humor purposes. It is trumped by the current strip in which Belkar claims to have a Wisdom penalty.

[Arteyu]

Just an update, Hilgya is at least a 7th level Cleric, as she cast Restoration.

Also as she referred to Loki as the god of Flames and Chaos, there is a good chance her second domain is Chaos. It would fit well with her being Chaotic not wanting to be part of Lawful Dwarven Society and all....so maybe shes Chaotic Neutral?

[Kurald Galain]

Theory:

are all Linear Guild members the opposite alignment of their OOTS counterpart?

Elan CG - Nale LE is obvious.
Haley CG - Sabine ??? I forget which alignment succubi get
Roy LG - Thog CE is fitting I suppose (although I've heard the case for thog being too stupid for any alignment)
Vaarsuvius CG? - Drizz'l LE is possible, but Pompey LE feels unlikely
Durkon LG - Hilgya CE ??? hm, doesn't feel right, but Leeky CE sounds fitting enough
Belkar CE - Yikyik LG ??? er, perhaps I didn't think this through, and Yokyok sounds maybe LE'ish?

[Morty]

Theory:

are all Linear Guild members the opposite alignment of their OOTS counterpart?
Elan CG - Nale LE is obvious.
Haley CG - Sabine ??? I forget which alignment succubi get

We don't know what type of outsider Sabine is.


Vaarsuvius CG? - Drizz'l LE is possible, but Pompey LE feels unlikely

Vaarsuvius is unlikely to be CG. I'd rather say True Neutral.


Durkon LG - Hilgya CE ??? hm, doesn't feel right, but Leeky CE sounds fitting enough

Hilgya may very well be CE, but Leeky is druid, so he can only be NE.


Belkar CE - Yikyik LG ??? er, perhaps I didn't think this through, and Yokyok sounds maybe LE'ish?

YikYik were obviously CE, but it's possible that his son were LG.

[Kurald Galain]

We don't know what type of outsider Sabine is.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html Sounds like a succubus to me.


YikYik were obviously CE, but it's possible that his son were LG.
Why is Yikyik chaotic? He seems to be a stickler for the (aoo) rules :smallwink:

[Porthos]

Why is Yikyik chaotic? He seems to be a stickler for the (aoo) rules :smallwink:

Rich stated in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Yikyik is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as Belkar, but as a kobold. He figured that it would be funny that the thing that Belkar would most hate would be a kobold that was exactly like him. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html Sounds like a succubus to me.The problem is that in addition to the CE demon succubus, D&D also has a LE devil seductress-type monster, the erinyes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes). Sabine's appearance and abilities seem to more closely match with succubus, but her behaviour seems to be more Lawful than Chaotic. So, either the alignment rules are relaxed and she's a Lawful Evil succubus (contrary to type), or she's a Chaotic Evil succubus, and we're misinterpreting her behaviour, or she's an erinyes with alignment true to her type, but with an unusual appearance, or she's some other type of fiend altogether, but somewhat similar to a succubus or erinyes.

[meioziz]

This has been discussed ad nauseum.
Ad nauseum, yes. But the fact remains that the CSW scroll is level 3, as you can see from my quote (directly from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm)) in the other post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2884448&postcount=29).


When determining what Wisdom is needed to cast a scroll, you use the spell level as it appears on the reader's spell list (4 for Belkar) not the spell level on the scroll (3 for clerics), because scroll-reading uses the reader's spell list to determine if he can read the scroll (which is why rangers can read clerical spells at all).
This is wrong information. The requirement is that the scroll's spell be on the reader's class list as one of the 3 requirements. And let me quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm):
The user must have the spell on his or her class list. This is so that a Sorcerer or Wizard or Bards can cast spells that they haven't learned, but that a Wizard can't cast Good Hope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/goodHope.htm), or that a Cleric can't cast Speak with Plants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/speakWithPlants.htm).


Belkar needed a 14 Wisdom to read the scroll.

However, it is now clear that strip was just for humor purposes. It is trumped by the current strip in which Belkar claims to have a Wisdom penalty.

The reason that the ability score requirement is 3 in this case, is simply because this spell was cast by a Cleric into the scroll. The scroll's spell IS a level 3 spell. Hence Belkar only needed to have 13 Wisdom to activate it.

No rule was bent, in this particular case.

Hope this clears things up for you guys.

[Sir_Norbert]

(@Chronos: intervening post appeared while I was writing)

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed? Because erinyes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erinyes) from mythology are very far from being seductresses.

[Morty]

Sabine can also be some homebrewed LE outsider. Remember that there's a running gag based on not knowing if she's devil or demon. In fact, if she's a devil, she's almost certainly some homebrewed type, since erinyes aren't seductive.

[Chronos]

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed?The online SRD doesn't say so, but then, it omits a lot of the flavor text found in the books. The 3.0 Monster Manual specifies "Like their demonic counterparts, the succubi, erinyes seek to tempt mortals into depravity". Now, admittedly, that isn't explicitly sexual depravity, but it does say that they're "like succubi", and appearing attractive to humans would certainly facilitate sexual depravity. And this is very different from the traditional mythological conception of erinyes, but it's hardly the first time D&D has departed from traditional mythology (I mean, gorgons? Come on).

[Leeroy_Jenkins]

Ad nauseum, yes. But the fact remains that the CSW scroll is level 3, as you can see from my quote (directly from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm)) in the other post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2884448&postcount=29).

What you are quoting from is the randomized scroll generator, not the rules on determining minimal ability score requirements. It merely explains that--on the random-scroll tables--spells with multiple levels (such as CSW) are presumed to appear at their lowest level (note how the 4th-level divine spell list doesn't contain "Ranger CSW"). And the text from that section itself explains that it is referring to the random-scroll tables (and, thus, not more generally).

It is not an exception to the "10 + spell level" rule, and CSW for a ranger clearly has a spell level of 4. Otherwise, under your explanation, an 11th-level ranger (with 13 WIS) could go around casting CSW from scrolls without incurring a caster level check, but had to wait until 14th level to cast it from memory.


Now if Belkar secretly had levels in rogue and a high UMD skill....

[Bocc Kob]

Where are you getting the "seductress-type" idea from -- just that they "appear attractive to humans", or is there something else that I missed?

For some of us, that's enough...

[silvadel]

This most recent comic solidifies the intimidation skills of Belkar -- I would figure they are quite high ..... Would you like it hotter mr bitterleaf -- I can do hotter :)

[RMS Oceanic]

He also possesses "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret Ingrediant", which provides him with a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Profession (Gourmet Chef) checks.

[Fitzclowningham]

Erinyes don't have the ability to drain energy. Sabine does. Also, if Sabine had a bow, she would have used it by now. She's not an Erinyes. I think she's a succubus, and CE. Her superiors don't have to have the same alignment as Nale to want to help/spy on him.

[Kurald Galain]

Rich stated in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools that Yikyik is for all intents and purposes exactly the same as Belkar, but as a kobold. He figured that it would be funny that the thing that Belkar would most hate would be a kobold that was exactly like him. :smallsmile:

Excellent explanation. Can we update the Yikyik entry to reflect that?

[Castamir]

He also possesses "Mama Bitterleaf's Secret Ingrediant", which provides him with a +2 Circumstance Bonus to Profession (Gourmet Chef) checks.
Masterwork seasonings? Makes sense.

However, no one seems to have mentioned his chef's hat yet...

[Wrecan]

Belkar's Chef's Hat and Secret Ingredient added!

[Chronos]

Erinyes don't have the ability to drain energy. Sabine does.Right, which is why I said that her abilities are more consistent with succubus than erinyes. She does (or did) have a crossbow, though, and in most cases, a monster's equipment isn't immutable.

As for her alignment, just consider the fact that she's reporting to superiors at all. The fact that they need her spying for them suggests that they don't have other ways of getting the information, so she could have gotten away with not reporting in at all. We've seen very little conflict between her and Nale, who's known to be LE, and the one time she has been upset with him, it's because she thought he was breaking an agreement with her. All of this suggests that she's LE. Meanwhile, the only real evidence for CE is that she seems to be a succubus. Given that Rich has evidently relaxed the alignment rules in at least one case (LG Durkon worshipping an apparently CG Thor), I think the safest assumption is probably that he did it again here, and Sabine is an LE succubus. But he's never going to specify that explicitly, since it would ruin the silver/cold iron jokes.

[Kurald Galain]

Nale knows the Silent Image spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html).

[Chronos]

Already mentioned, many pages ago. That's simple enough that it could just be Prestidigitation, which is (or should be) on every arcane caster's list.

[BenjCano]

This post incorporates material from Start of Darkness. You have been warned! Spoilers abound! Warning, warning, warning!

OK, page 63, 4th panel, as Xykon becomes a lich. We get his "spefcifications:"



Power Supply:
16d12 Continuous Duty
Overload Followers:
12d8 Intermittent Duty
Class Sorcerer

Now the first two lines clearly suggest that Xykon had 16 Hit Die he was converting to d12s as becoming a lich, making him a 16th level sorcerer. The next two lines, dare I suggest, refer to Redcloak. At the time Xykon became a lich, he was a 12th level cleric, which is perfectly consistent with what he told Right-Eye, "I'm not high enough level to cast Heal."

If we assume that this is correct, dare we say that Redcloak was, as of 29 years prior to the start of DCF, four levels behind Xykon?

Of course, this is problematic because, immediately after becoming a lich, Xykon kills Lirian, and casts Soul Bind on her when she dies. A ninth level spell would have required Xykon to be an 18th level sorcerer. Can't explain that, I realize.

Thoughts?

[Sir_Norbert]

The right way to do spoiler warnings is like this:

text here

...only you need to spell "spoiler" correctly for it to work.

[Chronos]

Replying to BenjCano:
At the time Xykon became a lich, he was a 12th level cleric, which is perfectly consistent with what he told Right-Eye, "I'm not high enough level to cast Heal."Heal is a 6th-level cleric spell, and is castable by all clerics level 11 or higher.

[Wih]

I noticed you've got it listed down as Roy having Medium armour, but it's never explicitly stated that way - he's managed to keep up with Elan while running and dragging Durkon, and it shows him in bed with his armour on, but that's not concrete - he could have just not taken his armour off yet, and Elan could have not been running top speed, to let Roy keep up. What I'd like to point out is that Belkar refers to Roy as wearying heavy armour. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html).

[Zeb The Troll]

The right way to do spoiler warnings is like this:

text here

...only you need to spell "spoiler" correctly for it to work.Like this...

text to spoil

[eilandesq]

Further Start of Darkness ruminations:

The 16d12 in the "Xykon will be that lich" panel can't mean he was 16th level when he became a lich--he was trying to cast Energy Drain--a ninth level spell--on Lirian when the virus got him, making him at minimum 18th level at that time.

As noted by others, Redcloak could have been no higher than tenth level at that point, as he could not yet cast Heal--gotta give him props for correctly performing a procedure as complicated and powerful as transforming a human spellcaster into a lich (perhaps the Dark One was helping a bit on the sly).

[factotum]

Another thing about Redcloak from Start of Darkness:


During the battle with Dorukan, which happened six months before OotS started, Redcloak says "last year, when I learned 7th level spells for the first time". This means he became 13th level approximately a year and a half before the main online strip started.

[BenjCano]

Replying to BenjCano:Heal is a 6th-level cleric spell, and is castable by all clerics level 11 or higher.

Crap. I was reading the druid entry. And it seemed like such a good idea on paper. . .

[Wrecan]

I noticed you've got it listed down as Roy having Medium armour, but it's never explicitly stated that way - he's managed to keep up with Elan while running and dragging Durkon, and it shows him in bed with his armour on, but that's not concrete - he could have just not taken his armour off yet, and Elan could have not been running top speed, to let Roy keep up. What I'd like to point out is that Belkar refers to Roy as wearying heavy armour. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html).

I think Belkar was tkaing liberties as part of his Craft Distrubing Image feat. The mechanics of what we've seen (movement rates, sleeping, etc.) lead me to believe Roy is wearing Medium Armor. It is a close call, though

[TheFallenOne]

Well, the medium armor thing was my observation, be it correct or not. It gets questioned time and time again because there are two instances where characters from the strip call it "heavy armor", but I think they refer to the weight instead of the game term.

Wrecan, you linked a strip as proof of the medium armor without any explanation given to the reader why we can conclude Roy has medium armor from that one. I'll explain it in detail and I think it would be best you link this post as proof for medium armor so I don't have to repeat it again.

Why Roy has medium armor:

We repeatedly see Roy carrying Durkon if they are running away from something. Lets look at their movement speeds:
Durkon has heavy armor, movement of 20 feet, x3 when running
Roy in medium armor: 20 feet, x4 when running
Roy in heavy armor: 20 feet, x3 when running

Now we see: If Roy had heavy armor he wouldn't be any faster than Durkon so it would be totally senseless to carry him! Therefor: Roy has only medium armor

There are a couple of alternative explanations, I'll list them here:
Roy has increased movement speed through a feat - unlikely and we should have noticed on other occasions if he did
Roy has the run feat - possible but unlikely
Rich made a mistake - well, it COULD happen
my personal favourite: Roy actually wears heavy armor and they aren't any faster by carrying Durkon, it's just they don't know it because back in 3.0 dwarfes still had reduced movement speed in heavy armor and they didn't think about it since then

[Chronos]

Why Roy has medium armor:

We repeatedly see Roy carrying Durkon if they are running away from something. Lets look at their movement speeds:
Durkon has heavy armor, movement of 20 feet, x3 when running
Roy in medium armor: 20 feet, x4 when running
Roy in heavy armor: 20 feet, x3 when running

Now we see: If Roy had heavy armor he wouldn't be any faster than Durkon so it would be totally senseless to carry him! Therefor: Roy has only medium armorNote that the same argument also applies to weight limits, and hence our deductions about Roy's strength. Not only would Roy have to be in medium armor, but he would also have to be carrying only a medium load when he's lugging Durkon. And to lug 243 pounds as a medium load, he'd need a strength of 20, which I think unlikely: He could have started with an 18 strength and improved it with both of his level-up points, but I think that's asking a bit too much of his dice rolls, combined with his high mental stats. Nor does he seem to use a Belt of Giant Strength, since he had his belt slot available for the Girdle of Roy's Got Boobies.

Of the alternative explanations, I think the simplest are that either the Order didn't realize that Durkon wasn't slowed further by armor, or the Run feat. The former isn't really subject to the kind of analysis found in this thread, but I think the latter actually has some good arguments for it. As a 12th-level human fighter, Roy has a ton of feats, and if you look on the lists and rule out the ones he probably doesn't have, there's not much left: He doesn't have any feats spent on specific weapons other than "his lady". He probably doesn't have the dex for Dodge (and its successors) or Combat Reflexes. He doesn't care much about riding, so probably no Mounted Combat. He doesn't use a second weapon or a shield. He doesn't use a ranged weapon, so Point Blank Shot and the like are out. He could take some of the skill-boosting feats, but he would have little reason to. On the other hand, the Order has traditionally considered anything other than running away from enemies to be a "plan B". Under the circumstances, Run actually makes a fair bit of sense.

[Wrecan]

to lug 243 pounds as a medium load, he'd need a strength of 20

the Order has traditionally considered anything other than running away from enemies to be a "plan B". Under the circumstances, Run actually makes a fair bit of sense.

Yeah, that does make a lot of sense.

He could also have Gauntlets of Ogre Strength to get his STR 18 to STR 20. Or a non-traditional item of strength. Or he could have Boots of Speed (which I assume would have gotten a mention at some point). Lots of reasons why he should be able to drag Durkon faster than Durkon can run unaided. I'm taking a wait and see approach to this.

[Kurald Galain]

(re Nale knowing Silent Image)

Already mentioned, many pages ago. That's simple enough that it could just be Prestidigitation, which is (or should be) on every arcane caster's list.
Maybe it's mentioned, but neither is on his first-page spell list. Plus, sorcerers get a rather tight limit of cantrips, so it's not a given that they all know Prestig.


Note that the same argument also applies to weight limits, and hence our deductions about Roy's strength.
Speaking of which, the same applies to Sabine carrying both Nale and Thog while flying.

[TheFallenOne]

Damn I just now noticed that a heavy load also reduces your running speed to x3. Well, that makes things more complicated.

[Estrosiath]

From SoD, add Soul bind and Energy drain to Xykon's spell list (sorry if someone already mentioned this).

Since he knows 3 spells of 9th level, that places him at least at level 20. And although this is not conclusive evidence he is epic-level, in SoD Redcloak mentions they would 'both' need to be epic-level to reconstruct a gate. Since we know Redcloak definitely wasn't at the time, this could be conclusive evidence Xykon is epic level.

[Zeb The Troll]

And although this is not conclusive evidence he is epic-level, in SoD Redcloak mentions they would 'both' need to be epic-level to reconstruct a gate. Since we know Redcloak definitely wasn't at the time, this could be conclusive evidence Xykon is epic level.I don't agree with that conclusion. There is hard evidence in that book (which I won't divulge for those that haven't read it) that gives him a solid level at that time and it is not epic. All we can conclude from that is that either a) they're not BOTH epic now, and/or b) they haven't done the research necessary to reconstruct any of the gates they've destroyed in their quest. Probably both.

[Estrosiath]

Add Cloudkill to Xykon's spell list... He uses it in SoD. And Since Xykon uses three different 9th level spells, this means he is was at LEAST 20th level. I think the sentence I interpreted means Xykon is epic, but I agree it might not necessarily be that way. However, if he isn't already, I think he is very close. I'd put him at 21st level, personally.

[anyone]

If Xykon is epic-level, the why does he not look just like this: :xykon: ? Why is there still a boby below his skull. If I were an epic-level lich, the first thing I would do would be becomming a demilich. So I think, Xykon is not epic.

[Zeb The Troll]

If Xykon is epic-level, the why does he not look just like this: :xykon: ? Why is there still a boby below his skull. If I were an epic-level lich, the first thing I would do would be becomming a demilich. So I think, Xykon is not epic.The reasoning for that is actually sorta spelled out in SoD. What it boils down to is that Xykon isn't really so much on the planning as he is on the doing.

@Estrosiath - The evidence is at odds with itself for Xykon having been epic when he became a lich. Yes, he uses those spells. However, the print states that he had 16HD when he became a lich, as BenjCano pointed out.

I'd say the likely progression is something like this. He was actually level 18 when he became a lich and Soul Bind was his only 9th level spell. Many years passed before he's seen using Energy Drain, so it's not inconceivable that he picked up level 19, and Energy Drain, in the interim. And that was several years before he's seen using Meteor Swarm in the strip. Enough time to get 20, and Meteor Swarm, now. So yeah, while it's possible he's 21+ right now, there's nothing convincing showing irrefutably that he is.

[Chrismith]

I'd say the likely progression is something like this. He was actually level 18 when he became a lich and Soul Bind was his only 9th level spell. Many years passed before he's seen using Energy Drain, so it's not inconceivable that he picked up level 19, and Energy Drain, in the interim. And that was several years before he's seen using Meteor Swarm in the strip. Enough time to get 20, and Meteor Swarm, now. So yeah, while it's possible he's 21+ right now, there's nothing convincing showing irrefutably that he is.

Except that we saw Xykon using Energy Drain on Lirian (or trying to, at least) before he became a lich.

[Kish]

Except that we saw Xykon using Energy Drain on Lirian (or trying to, at least) before he became a lich.
Yes, I concur that the words "16d12 something Duty" don't qualify as hard enough evidence to override "he verifiably knew two level 9 spells." "Xykon was level 16" would, if those words were in the book. If he was level 18 when he became a lich he would have had 18 hit dice, not 16--so the 16 thing is wrong either way.

[Zeb The Troll]

Yes, I concur that the words "16d12 something Duty" don't qualify as hard enough evidence to override "he verifiably knew two level 9 spells." "Xykon was level 16" would, if those words were in the book. If he was level 18 when he became a lich he would have had 18 hit dice, not 16--so the 16 thing is wrong either way.
Well, I thought that what I was saying that neither bit of evidence was worth a damn since the 16HD was obviously wrong. Even so, there's nothing that shows any evidence that he's 21+ now. The best we can say is that he was likely level 19 in SoD and picked up 20 before showing us Meteor Swarm in the strip.

[PsyBlade]

Perhaps it was supposed to be 19, but accidently typed/drawn 16, 9 and 6 are easily mistaken for each other.

[Porthos]

It would appear that Haley has Ranged Pin (From Complete Warrior), as what she did seems to duplicate exactly what happened in the comic. This also means that she needs to have Precise Shot as it is a prereq for the feat.

It's on pg 104 of CW for those people who are interested in looking it up.

[PsyBlade]

I'd say we have been given some additional info on MitD's strength. No way it's less than 20, and that's being conservative.

[Porthos]

Hmmmmm.... Might have a problem here with Haley's feats, if we accept that Haley has Ranged Pin (and really, #477 has a textbook application of it):

<In no particular order>
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Precise Shot
3 Rapid Shot
4 Manyshot
5 Ranged Pin
6 Dodge
7 Martial Weapon Proficiency

As a 13th level Human, she gets 6 feats, not 7. "No problem," I hear people say. "This just strengthens the Aasimar theory as she would get MWP for free." And that is certainly true. But it also means that she doesn't get the free feat at 1st level for being human, so she still has one too many feats.

How do we know that she has Dodge? I don't see a link for a comic under the entry, and none of her feats that she has now has Dodge as a prereq. Now I haven't been following this thread since the beginning, so I don't know if there is a comic establishing that Haley has Dodge. But if there isn't one, I think we have to strike it off her list, since there is no room for it.

Alternatively, Rich could be using one of the variant buy systems for feats (i.e. Character Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" idea), but I'm hesitant to go down that road.

Also, I suppose she could have taken a single level of fighter somewhere along the road (getting both a bonus feat and MWP), but there is zero text evidence for such an idea (and quite a lot against it when you take Origins into account), and I would really not want to entertain the notion unless Rich actually gave a real nod to the idea in the comic.

Any thoughts on this are more than welcome. :smallsmile:
----------------------------------

Edited to Add:

Actually, I found a much better answer that renders all of my concerns moot. :smallsmile:

<In my defense, I haven't played a High Level Rogue in 3.0/3.5 :smallredface: >

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm

Special Abilities

On attaining 10th level, and at every three levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th), a rogue gains a special ability of her choice from among the following options.

<<<Bunch of options snipped>>>

Feat

A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability.

So that solves that conundrum, and it even leaves a feat to spare. :smallwink: Though I still kinda like to hear where the Dodge idea came from, just for curiosities sake . Now we just have to hope we don't see Haley demonstrate too many of the Rogue Special Abilities.

[anyone]

I think, :haley: has a few fighter-levels, giving her bonus-feats and material weapon training. Also I think, she is at last fighter level 4, because of her damage-output. Look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html. She kills every hobgoblin (6hp) with one arrow. It is most likely she rolled at last one time a 1 for damage and it were no sneak-atacks. So she must deal at last 1d8+5 damage. Lets say composit-bow+1 (it is unlikely she is stronger the STR 13) and enchantmet-bonus+3 (like Elans rapier) makes 1d8+4, one point missing. So I think she has weapon-specialistion (longbow), which makes it 1d8+6 and so she fighter level 4.
q.e.d

[Porthos]

I think, :haley: has a few fighter-levels, giving her bonus-feats and material weapon training. Also I think, she is at last fighter level 4, because of her damage-output. Look at http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html. She kills every hobgoblin (6hp) with one arrow. It is most likely she rolled at last one time a 1 for damage and it were no sneak-atacks. So she must deal at last 1d8+5 damage. Lets say composit-bow+1 (it is unlikely she is stronger the STR 13) and enchantmet-bonus+3 (like Elans rapier) makes 1d8+4, one point missing. So I think she has weapon-specialistion (longbow), which makes it 1d8+6 and so she fighter level 4.
q.e.d

Point Blank Shot: +1 Attack/ +1 Damage to all targets within 30 feet.

There's your missing point of damage, with no fighter levels required. :smallsmile:

[Glorfindel]

Can we conclude from the last comic that the CitD is able to cast Earthquake at will?

[Aidjn]

Alternatively, Rich could be using one of the variant buy systems for feats (i.e. Character Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" idea), but I'm hesitant to go down that road.


Well, if you take that link you'll notice that Inattentive could apply to every memeber of OotS.

[Chronos]

...or the popular "trade in 4 skill points for a feat" ideaDo people actually do this? It would be horribly unbalancing: A barbarian could trade in his extra skill points to gain just as many feats and skills as a fighter, plus all of the barbarian advantages.

And if there's a good reason to give Haley Dodge, then I support the idea that she used one of her Special Ability slots for a feat. We haven't seen her use any of the other rogue special abilities, and she's had opportunity for several of them. On the other hand, if she does have Ranged Pin, I think it's the first time that the Giant has introduced a feat from a book other than the core. It could have just been a "That's cool so I'll rule that it works" DM moment, like collapsing the tower onto the hobgoblins.

[Porthos]

On the other hand, if she does have Ranged Pin, I think it's the first time that the Giant has introduced a feat from a book other than the core. It could have just been a "That's cool so I'll rule that it works" DM moment, like collapsing the tower onto the hobgoblins.

While it isn't feats, Rich has specifically used material from the Monster Manual II, the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Fiend Folio. So I don't think we are restrained by Core/SRD anymore when it comes to things appearing in the comic.

[Shisumo]

While it isn't feats, Rich has specifically used material from the Monster Manual II, the Book of Vile Darkness, and the Fiend Folio. So I don't think we are restrained by Core/SRD anymore when it comes to things appearing in the comic.
He's also introduced deathless, which are an Eberron/Ghostwalk concept.

[Shisumo]

There are a couple of alternative explanations, I'll list them here:
Roy has increased movement speed through a feat - unlikely and we should have noticed on other occasions if he did
Roy has the run feat - possible but unlikely
Rich made a mistake - well, it COULD happen
my personal favourite: Roy actually wears heavy armor and they aren't any faster by carrying Durkon, it's just they don't know it because back in 3.0 dwarfes still had reduced movement speed in heavy armor and they didn't think about it since then

Isn't there an option C "all of the above" kinda deal? I mean, if Roy wears mithral (or a campaign-world equivalent) half-plate, it wound be a "heavy armor" that is nonetheless technically medium for the purposes of running speeds and the like.

(Note that I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with your argument, but it would nicely resolve the conflict.)

[Porthos]

He's also introduced deathless, which are an Eberron/Ghostwalk concept.

As well as the Book of Exalted Deeds. :smallsmile: But I didn't include that one, as Redcloak said "probably homebrewed or cribbed off of another campaign setting" [given the friendly rivalry, that's an obvious allusion the the aforementioned Eberron]. The only reason I didn't include it was that there was room for homebrewing. But in the case of the Eye of Fear and Flame, et all, you can clearly see the sourcebooks on the ground.

Anyway, I figure the days of Mr. Rodriguez and Mr. Jones carting off non-SRD monsters/Copyright Infringments are long over. :smallamused:

[Chronos]

Further on Start of Darkness, now that I have it:
Someone (can't find the exact post, sorry) already pointed out that Xykon cast seven 9th-level spells (a Meteor Swarm vs. the angels, five Energy Drains vs. Dorukan, and a Soul Bind after he'd killed him) in the battle with Dorukan, but then said that we can't deduce anything from that, given a sorcerer's charisma. But we can deduce something from it: Namely, we can put a lower bound on Xykon's charisma. A high-level sorcerer gets 6 spells of each level, plus bonus spells from high charisma, so Xykon must have at least one bonus 9th level spell. This requires at least a 28 Charisma. Given how very gifted Xykon seems to be (first spell when he was four years old), he probably started with an 18 Cha. If he put all five of his level-up points into Cha, plus three more from being Venerable, plus two more from his lichification, that'd put him at 28 exactly, without needing any items. So I think that's his score.

Edit to avoid having two posts in a row: A few other minor (non-spoiler points).

Roy has ranks in Profession: Goat herding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), since it's something that someone might learn in lieu of Ride. I'd guess exactly two ranks, but we don't know that 1 semester = 1 rank.

Belkar's possesions include a red crayon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) or two. Elan had one in that strip, too, but he may have borrowed it from Belkar, or it may have gotten confiscated in Cliffport.

Vaarsuvius knows the Draconic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) language, since e can read the runes.

Someone other than Elan apparently has the Heal skill, to put his arm in a sling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html). But nobody other than Durkon or Elan has the skill, or they would have tried to use first aid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) on Elan. So we can conclude that Durkon has the Heal skill.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

If your counting the dragon magazine comics, then both elan and haley have the dodge feat.

[Porthos]

If your counting the dragon magazine comics, then both elan and haley have the dodge feat.

Ah, you're right. I'd forgotten about that particular strip. :smallsmile: Well, even though they are technically "seperate continuities", we've already seen some crossovers with skills [Profession (Gourmet Chef)], so I can see the reason for including it now.

Anyway, ever since I (re-)discovered the fact that Rogues can get (if they choose) Bonus Feats, I'm happy with the inclusion of Dodge.

Now we just have to figure out what is her last Feat/Rogue Special Ability. Personally, I'd guess Improved Evasion. Mostly because I can't imagine any character not taking Improved Evasion if they had the opportunity. :smalltongue:

Unfortunately, I don't think she has failed a Reflex save in over 300 strips (unless you count this unnamed spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html) as having a Reflex Save, which is doubtful since it looks to be a Ranged Touch Attack/Ray spell), so it's really hard to tell, especially since Haley would still take damage. Just not as much as a character normally would.

Thanks again for the reminder, Gwyn_ap_Nud. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

If we can pin down all of Haley's feats/rogue abilities, then we also know that she has neither Nimble Fingers nor Skill Focus (Open Locks), and can hence make some strong deductions about her Dex from her escape from the jail cells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html). Elan's encouragement cancels out the improvised tools penalty, and she says that the lock is Amazing quality, or a 40 DC. That means that her total Open Locks bonus is either 20 or 21: Any lower, and she couldn't have opened the lock even with Elan's encouragement, and any higher, and she could have done so without it. If she has neither feat, then she must be getting at least +4 from Dex, which means at least 18, and assuming that she has maxed ranks in Open Lock (has that ever been stated explicitly?), then her Dex can be no higher than 21.


EDIT: I somehow missed seeing the link on the first page to where the Giant says some more specifics about the same comic, and I also forgot that that was while they were still level 12, not 13. So, yeah, dex bonus of +5.

[Amon Star]

Can we conclude from the last comic that the CitD is able to cast Earthquake at will?

Personally, I wouldn't say at will. :mitd: got tired after the quake, which could be a roleplay effect from using a power with uses per day. Or, it could means that the Eathquake power fatigues the :mitd:. Alternatively, it could be irrelevant, but we just don't know.

[Estrosiath]

Xykon
Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 20+ (Knows three 9th-level spells*)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 28+ (High-level Sorcerer, cast 7 9th-level spells during a single fight)*
Note: Since Xykon turned himself into a lich when he was an 80 year-old human, his initial scores were modified as follows: -6 to Dex, Con and Str, and +3 to Int, Wis and Cha. This probably means he has penalties to Strength and/or Dexterity.*
Feats (7+): Craft Wondrous Item (required to make phylactery)
Skills (84+): Bluff (many ranks), Reverse Psychology - class skills are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball, crown that radiates evil.
Spells Known: Animate Dead, Finger of Death, Ghostform, Greater Invisibility, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm, Overland Flight, Shatter, Symbol of Pain, Symbol of Insanity, Teleport, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, Energy Drain*, Soul Bind*, Cloudkill*, Baleful polymorph? (threatens to turn Redcloak and/or Right-eye into a horse).*
All parts with * are proven true in Start of Darkness. There are no online sources for it as of now.

[Wrecan]

And if there's a good reason to give Haley Dodge, then I support the idea that she used one of her Special Ability slots for a feat.
I think that's the answer, and until we get some other indication, I'll go with that. If Haley exhibits yet another two feats, or another feat and a special ability, or two special abilities, we'll reassess it then.

[Ubiq]

As far as Xykon's Strength goes, we see a couple of situations during Start of Darkness that shows he isn't adverse to using more hands on methods.


1) Bludgeoning Fryon to death with a small statue; shattering the skull in the process.
2) Snapping Lirian's neck.
3) He threatened to twist off Right-Eye's head; it might have been hyperbole, but I think he actually meant it.

Xykon also launched himself across the table in the latter incident and carried Right-Eye right through the back of the booth behind him. This lunge might have been magic-assisted, but didn't seem to be.


Could any of those incidents provide a lower limit on how strong he is?

[TroyXavier]

I wouldn't be surprised if Xykon had a Wisdom penatly and he does seem to have some sort of strength bonus.

[Megatron]

I'd say we have been given some additional info on MitD's strength. No way it's less than 20, and that's being conservative.

When he stomped the ground it seemed more like he was just stomping his foot than actually using any type of special/magical ability. I'd say his strength is at least 45 (I mean really, look at the impact radius...) maybe even higher.

[Chronos]

Concerning Xykon's strength, from page 65 of SoD:When Xykon gets lichified, he says "Look at how limber I am! Suck it hard, arthritis!". So it looks like Rich houserules that lichification removes the age penalty to dex, and presumably the same would be true of strength as well. So we don't need to factor in the -6 to those two scores, and thus they could still be reasonably high (consistent with his accuracy with rays, and throwing the goblins through the diner window).

[Vhaidara]

7 Martial Weapon Proficiency

Where'd you get that from?

[Porthos]

Where'd you get that from?

Haley uses a Longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html). Rogues are not proficient with Longbows, so she must have taken the MWP feat (or gotten it somehow) somewhere along the line.

[Estrosiath]

As far as Xykon's Strength goes, we see a couple of situations during Start of Darkness that shows he isn't adverse to using more hands on methods.


1) Bludgeoning Fryon to death with a small statue; shattering the skull in the process.
2) Snapping Lirian's neck.
3) He threatened to twist off Right-Eye's head; it might have been hyperbole, but I think he actually meant it.

Xykon also launched himself across the table in the latter incident and carried Right-Eye right through the back of the booth behind him. This lunge might have been magic-assisted, but didn't seem to be.


Could any of those incidents provide a lower limit on how strong he is?

Personally I think all these have nothing to do with the strength rating. He used a bludgeoning item to kill someone... That only takes average strength, seeing as how he kept hitting him until he pulped his skull. And I think he "snapped" her neck just as a finishing move; he had already been beating her around like a red-headed stepchild with magic before. She probably just had a couple hit points left, so the "neck snapping" was, I think, just for show.
As for the goblin... Well, he just threatened him, didn't he?

Someone point out that he got rid of arthritis. Well, of course he did, but I don't think that has so much to do with this Strength and Dexterity scores as much as it has to do with the fact he tore off all is flesh, organs, etc... And is now basically a walking skeleton. He's immune to diseases (and arthritis is a disease). At least... I think that's it. I highly doubt he would have had a strength score higher than 14 AT MOST when he was young and fit, so he should at least best have a score of 8 now. Maybe his Dex was higher (he was a mage after all, and dex is pretty important to them for ac and ranged touch purposes), but even if he had 16, he now should only have 10.

[Chronos]

As for the goblin... Well, he just threatened him, didn't he?Psst... See page 74. That's not an 8 str at work. Even if he cast Bull's Strength off-panel, that's not a 12 str at work, either. Which means that either he had an 18 str to begin with and cast Bull's Strength off-panel, or he doesn't have an aging strength penalty.

And arthritis is basically just the real-world name for the loss of dexterity as a person ages.

[Kreistor]

On Ranged Pin:

Roy's body is an object now, and so cannot be grappled, and therefore cannot be pinned. Roy just does not have a grapple modifier anymore, and so there is nothing to roll to contest the arrow's grapple anymore. It is not necessary for Haley to have any feat to try to hang an object up by an arrow.

This falls under plot device. The Giant needed Haley to be able to do it, so she did it.

[Gitman00]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Xykon's info needs to be updated. He's at least 20th level, with a Cha of at least 28.

(SoD Spoiler)
He knows three 9th-level Sorcerer spells (Meteor Swarm, Energy Drain and Soul Bind) and cast seven 9th-level spells during the duel with Dorukan.

EDIT: Looking back over the thread, I see his level has been discussed. Where's Runolfr? He hasn't posted on this thread since... wow, May 3? He did update his first post on June 13, though. Interesting.

[Boodi]

In Strip 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) where V. attempts to trade a spell with Zz'dtri, V. says V. has Time stop, Meteor Storm and Wish. But to have those spells V. needs to be a higher levelled wizard and have 1 more int.

[TroyXavier]

I think V was being sarcastic there as she couldn't get him to trade any spells at all.

[Wrecan]

The next time I make a version of this thread, I'm going to include a FAQ, and that's going into it.

[RAGE KING!]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but Xykon's info needs to be updated. He's at least 20th level, with a Cha of at least 28.


i didnt look at the spoiler, but i just want to point out that xykon has a +4 level adjustment, did you consider that, or is it irrelevant?


Also, what total level are the oots?, nobody seems to have posted it, but my friend said they were all thirteenth level.

[Borris]

Look at the first page. All OotS PCs are listed as 13th-level. Well, technically, Belkar is only listed as level 12 or more because we don't have concrete proof that he's reached his 13th-level yet, but it's quite safe to assume he's at the same level as everyone else.

[Chronos]

The Fiendish Giant Octopus would be another Summon Monster VII spell. Does this tell us anything new about Redcloak? There's also some discussion in another thread that it seems to be much larger than the standard Large size for such a monster... Are there any Enlarge Monster-type spells which could make up the difference?

[Ithekro]

SoD spoiler question on Redcloak.
What class would give Redcloak the ability to cast smite ("good" I assume) as he does when he gets the cloak all those years ago? All I could find was Blackguard, and that doesn't compute.

[Morty]

SoD spoiler question on Redcloak.
What class would give Redcloak the ability to cast smite ("good" I assume) as he does when he gets the cloak all those years ago? All I could find was Blackguard, and that doesn't compute.

A cleric with Destruction domain.

[Gitman00]

i didnt look at the spoiler, but i just want to point out that xykon has a +4 level adjustment, did you consider that, or is it irrelevant?

Well, it's irrelevant as far as my post was concerned, but it's another piece of info that probably could be added to his "character sheet". He's still a 20th-level sorcerer; the level adjustment only refers to how much XP it takes for him to advance to his next level.

[Wrecan]

Look at the first page. All OotS PCs are listed as 13th-level. Well, technically, Belkar is only listed as level 12 or more because we don't have concrete proof that he's reached his 13th-level yet, but it's quite safe to assume he's at the same level as everyone else.

Belkar islisted as Ranger 12/Barbarian 1. That's a 13th level character.

[Chronos]

Shouldn't that be Ranger 11 / Barbarian 2? He switched to Brb when he turned 12th level, not 13th. Is there any evidence that he went back to ranger? From a metagaming point of view, by 11, he has his combat style mastery and most of his favored enemies, which leaves Belkar little incentive to stay in Ranger.

[Kurald Galain]

Some random additions:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html - Roy has sufficient ranks in whatever the skill is that's used to identify poison.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html - Elan has at least nine ranks in perform (string instruments), because that's required for him using the suggestion ability. Note that as written in the SRD, it indeed only works on one person.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html - Nale knows either Silent Image or Prestidigitation.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html - Sabine has sufficient strength to carry both Thog and Nale at the same time.

In DCF, Yokyok is said to have the same stats and so forth as Belkar, except that he's a kobold.


From one of the Dragon comics, both Haley and Elan have the Dodge feat. Additionally, Vaarsuvius has Maximize Spell.

Also from Dragon, Belkar "never bothers with that special attack crap", meaning he doesn't have feats related to disarming, tripping, grappling, or bull rushing.

And also from Dragon, Durkon has a dex penalty, and Vaarsuvius has ranks in decipher script, and does in fact NOT know the draconic language (unless there are several of those).

And finally, Belkar had a certain wand at some point, but it appears to have been confiscated by our friendly neighborhood lawyers. It does mean that Belkar has at least a few ranks in UMD.

[RMS Oceanic]

From strips 459 to 463, we see Redcloak turn undead four times. Since a Cleric can turn undead 3+Cha times per day, this proves his Charisma is at least 12, and probably higher from offscreen turnings.

In strip 458, Sabine was able to carry both Elan and Thog at once. Even if they were the minimum weights for their respective races, that adds up to 270 pounds, which requires a strength of 18 to carry as a heavy load. Thus, Sabine's strength is no less than 18.

Can we get these facts updated?

[Wrecan]

Some random additions:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0234.html - Roy has sufficient ranks in whatever the skill is that's used to identify poison.
No he doesn't. He didn't identify the poison. He just noted that Elan got hit with shuriken and suffered Con damage. That's not a Skill. It's just common sense.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html - Elan has at least nine ranks in perform (string instruments), because that's required for him using the suggestion ability. Note that as written in the SRD, it indeed only works on one person.[/quote]
Or he cast a spell. Or he was just trying to manipulate people with the power of song (my guess).

[spoiler]From one of the Dragon comics, both Haley and Elan have the Dodge feat. Additionally, Vaarsuvius has Maximize Spell.[/quote]
It's uncleatr if that's the same continuity. I'm not adding stuff from the Dragon comics or the bonus material.


And finally, Belkar had a certain wand at some point, but it appears to have been confiscated by our friendly neighborhood lawyers. It does mean that Belkar has at least a few ranks in UMD.
What sort of wand?

[Porthos]

What sort of wand?

It was a Wand of Dispel Clothing (cost: 40,000 gp + shipping and handling). :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

It was a Wand of Remove Clothing.Well, since that's a homebrew spell, we don't know what class it is. Maybe it's on the ranger spell list, in a back-to-nature sort of way, in which case Belkar wouldn't need UMD.

Oh, and any comment on this?

A few other minor (non-spoiler points).

Roy has ranks in Profession: Goat herding (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0141.html), since it's something that someone might learn in lieu of Ride. I'd guess exactly two ranks, but we don't know that 1 semester = 1 rank.

Belkar's possesions include a red crayon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html) or two. Elan had one in that strip, too, but he may have borrowed it from Belkar, or it may have gotten confiscated in Cliffport.

Vaarsuvius knows the Draconic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html) language, since e can read the runes.

Someone other than Elan apparently has the Heal skill, to put his arm in a sling (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html). But nobody other than Durkon or Elan has the skill, or they would have tried to use first aid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) on Elan. So we can conclude that Durkon has the Heal skill.

[Gefangnis]

No, charging is something anybody can do. Roy wouldn't have a charge feat.

And he clearly doesn't have Spirited Charge. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html)

[Kurald Galain]

No he doesn't. He didn't identify the poison. He just noted that Elan got hit with shuriken and suffered Con damage. That's not a Skill. It's just common sense.
No, in the comic he's clearly looking at the shuriken and stating what kind of poison it is.


Or he cast a spell. Or he was just trying to manipulate people with the power of song (my guess).
Trying to manipulate people with the power of song is precisely what the Bard's suggestion ability is.

[Chronos]

And if he was using the Suggestion bardic music ability, then it makes the fact that exactly one person followed him a lot funnier (though I hadn't noticed it before; thanks, Kurald). And it's not exactly anything implausible we're trying to prove, here: He'd have to be even more incompetent than he is to not have one maxed-out Perform skill. So I would set the bar of necessary evidence pretty low, in this case.

[Wrecan]

No, in the comic he's clearly looking at the shuriken and stating what kind of poison it is.
No, he isn't/ He's just confirming goop on the shuriken. AT any rate, there is no mechanic for recognizing poison, is even were I to accept that Roy had the skill to recognize poison, I wouldn't know what skill that is. As far as we know, everybody can recognize poison unskille din the OOTSiverse.


Trying to manipulate people with the power of song is precisely what the Bard's suggestion ability is.
No it's not. Bards can use suggestions limited times per day. It's a spell-like ability, not an extraordinary one. Elan could have been using his ability. He could have been casting a spell. He could have hoped that his music, unaided, would lead everyone to safety.

I agree that it would be bizarre for Elan not to have 9 or more ranks in Perform (stringed instruments). But this is not the evidence for it.

[Wrecan]

Well, since that's a homebrew spell, we don't know what class it is. Maybe it's on the ranger spell list, in a back-to-nature sort of way, in which case Belkar wouldn't need UMD.

Oh, and any comment on this?

There's no evidence that Roy has skill sin Got-herding just because he took a class in it.
It could have been Elan's crayon, which would have been confiscated from him when he and Nale switched. We haven't seen it since the twin-switch. I had it on Elan or Belkar's possession since the switch.
I will put Draconic on V's language list. Good catch!
I agree Durkon has heal (although I wonder why Elan didn't just get a cure spell for that sprain). Another good catch.

[Chrismith]

In DCF, Yokyok is said to have the same stats and so forth as Belkar, except that he's a kobold.

This has been mentioned a couple times now, so I thought I would address it. What the Giant said in the DCF commentary was that the perfect enemy for Belkar would be someone exactly like him -- in terms of personality, not stats. We know that he was the LG's tracker, meaning that he was most likely (but not necessarily) a ranger, but this doesn't prove that his stats are the same as Belkar's. In fact, since we see him using a different weapon (looks like a short sword) and using a feat that Belkar hasn't displayed (combat reflexes), it seems pretty obvious that his stats are different.