Class and Level Geekery II [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Wrecan

2006-09-06, 02:30 PM

Welcome to the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS. Yours may certainly vary.

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!

:roy:Roy Greenhilt (currently deceased)
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 13
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost, analysis here)
Dex ~10 (no evidence, probably his dump stat)
Con ~10 (no hard evidence but the probability, as indicated in the Giant's description of Miko fight, and the second battle with Xykon, is a Con of 16 or more)
Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
Wis ≥14 (“very good”)
Cha ≥12 (“decent”)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥74): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: -
Items: boots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0401.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), medium armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html) (justification), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html))...

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0244.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1
Attributes (16 pt buy min):
Str ≥13 (to use Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), probably higher)
Dex ≥16 (to boost light armor, halfling)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence, but he is a clever psychopath)
Wis ≤9 (I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB...
Skills (89): Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class - rogue, Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 2 small daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0281.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Mark of Justice (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0295.html) (more of a curse than a possession, but still), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html)...

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0007.html) 13
Attributes (28 pt buy min):
Str ≥12 (“he'd be a pretty good warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html)”)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0352.html))
Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html)...
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0198.html), Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0052.html) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak language (dwarven)...
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0219.html), +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), Darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), stonecunning, turn undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html), weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0025.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0237.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html)...

:elan:Elan
[/URL] [url=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html]Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0057.html) Human Male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0050.html) 12/Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html) 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html)
Attributes (22 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ≥14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≤10 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html); Giant says "Int penalty", Haley's Int says "possible that he raised (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0382.html)")
Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0080.html))
Cha ≥18 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0028.html)
Feats (6): Dodge, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Weapon Finesse...
Skills (~56): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen, Move Silently ≤1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html), Perform (wind instruments) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0198.html), Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), Perform (Sing) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html), Ridecc≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0026.html)...
Abilities: bardic music (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html), bardic lore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html), countersong, fascinate, glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), inspire competence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
Items: dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0388.html), +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0471.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), Spells (per day ≥ 3 4 4 2; known ≥ 6 4 4 3): Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0387.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0400.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0013.html)

:haley:Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0393.html), Human Female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0008.html) 13
Attributes (31 pt buy min):
Str 11-15 (high enough to carry equipment as light load to preserve evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), but must drag Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html))
Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5")
Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
Wis ~10 (no evidence, prone to aphasia)
Cha ≥12 (clearly attractive and persuasive, otherwise, no clue)
Feats (6+1): Dodge, Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 16 (maxed ranks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide 15, Knowledge (Arcane) (probable), Open Lock 15, Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Search, Sense Motive ≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0108.html), Use Rope ≥8...
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html) +7d6, 2 Special abilities (one is a feat), Trapfinding, Trap sense +4, Uncanny dodge
Items: 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), 1 bag of dragon hoard, 2 round gems (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), longbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html) (inc'g silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html)), masterworked lockpicks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) Booty talisman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0320.html), Roy's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html) greatsword +5 bane of those forsaken by the gods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), Roy's corpse (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), ...

:vaarsuvius:Vaarsuvius
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0011.html) alignment, Elven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html) 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html)
Attributes (20 pt buy min):
Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0245.html)")
Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays)
Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
Int ≥18 unmodifed (admits to illithid (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0031.html), may have increased)
Wis 10-12 (“moderate wisdom”)
Cha ≤9 (“poor charisma”)
Feats (9): AlertnessB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispels) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0166.html), Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell or Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0161.html)
Skills (97): Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html)≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Spot (+2), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0030.html) (+2), Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0340.html), ??), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class - wizard, Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html)
Items: Ring of Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html) (probably affects level 3 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html)), raven familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), golden circlet, robes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), spellbook, ink, paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4. no potions or scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)...
Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 2+1): Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0104.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0116.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0397.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0058.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html)...

Blood

2006-09-06, 02:40 PM

Is this the only thread in this forum that ever went to page 2? :o

Anyway, just wanted to thank everyone who worked on this. It's interesting to look at the stats. So thanks for all that work!

Runolfr

2006-09-06, 03:25 PM

And since we're at it, we might want to have a master list for some other recurring characters...

The Linear Guild

Note: Minor characters have been compressed inside Spoiler tags to save space.

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human Male, Fighter 3 - Rogue 3 - Sorcerer 6
(assumed to be Character Level 12, known to cast L3 spells)
Attributes:
Str ~14 (no evidence, but has Fighter levels)
Dex ~14 (no evidence, but has Rogue levels)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~14 (no evidence, but has Sorcerer levels and leads the LG)
Feats (9): 2 fighter bonus feats (possibly Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm).
Skills (??): Bluff
Abilities: *Sneak attack +2d6, trapfinding, trap sense +1, evasion.
Items: +3 Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html), chain shirt (probably masterwork to minimize spell failure chances), cure potions.
Known Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html). Nale claims to specialize in Enchantment spells.

:sabine: Sabine
Chaotic Evil, Succubus (assumed from appearance and energy drain), Outsider 6 - Rogue 6
Attributes:
Str ~13 (base for Succubus)
Dex ~13 (base for Succubus)
Con ~13 (base for Succubus)
Int ~16 (base for Succubus)
Wis ~14 (base for Succubus)
Cha ~26 (base for Succubus)
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Persuasive (standard for Succubus)
Skills (201): (standard for Succubus) Bluff +19, Concentration +10, Diplomacy +12, Disguise +17* (+19 acting), Escape Artist +10, Hide +10, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (any one) +12, Listen +19, Move Silently +10, Search +12, Spot +19, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks), Use Rope +1 (+3 with bindings).
Abilities: Energy drain, spell-like abilities, summon demon, DR 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immune to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell resistance 18, telepathy 100 ft., tongues.
Items: Sabine carried a crossbow in the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hasn't been seen with it lately.

:thog: Thog
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 - Barbarian 10
Attributes:
Str ~18 (no evidence, Half-Orc Barbarian)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~18 (no evidence, Half-Orc Barbarian)
Int 8- (no evidence, Half-Orc Barbarian)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (7): 2 Fighter bonus feats
Skills (50): Unknown
Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood (for all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc).
Items: +3 Great Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html) (currently held by Cliffport PD), medium armor, Celine Dion album, Leprechaun suit.

Part-time Members
Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 13+ (cast Firestorm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html))
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~18 (no evidence, Druid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (60): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: Staff (properties unknown, broken by Durkon's thunderclap)

Pompey
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 10 (possibly much lower)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~18 (no evidence, Wizard)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (8): Scribe scroll, 3 wizard bonus feats
Skills (78): Unknown
Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Items: Unknown
Note: Pompey is assumed to be lower in level than other LG members because he was still in school.
Spells Known: Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html).

Yokyok
Male Kobold, Unknown Class (may include Duellist PrC)
Items: Rapier
This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.

Hilgya
Female Dwarf, Cleric
Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire.

Zz'dtri
Male Drow, Wizard

Feats: possibly Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Pair of scimitars
Spells: Flesh to Stone, Fly, Shield, Wall of Ice. Unspecified attack spell characterized by green lightning.

Yikyik
Male Kobold, Ranger

Team Evil

:xykon: Xykon
Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 20+ (reportedly knows three L9 spells and cast seven of them in one day)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 28+ (based on Start of Darkness events)
Feats (7+): Craft Wondrous Item (required to make phylactery)
Skills (84+): Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) (many ranks) - class skills are Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) (Cha), Concentration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/concentration.htm) (Con), Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) (Int), Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) (arcana) (Int), Profession (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/profession.htm) (Wis), and Spellcraft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm) (Int). +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball, crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).
Spells Known: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

:redcloak: Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin Male, Cleric 15+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
Cha 12+ (repeated use of Rebuke Undead)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html)
Skills (60+): Unknown; +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law), darkvision 60'.
Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery), Crimson Mantle.

:mitd: Monster in the Dark
Little is known (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2955060#post2955060) about the thing in the dark, but it is probably a credible threat to a party of 12th-or-higher level characters. We do know, however, that it has high damage resistance, it can hit very hard, and it doesn't know how to pull a punch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html).

Tsukiko
Evil, Human Female, Wizard 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge 4+
(minimum Caster Level 7 for divine spells to cast Inflict Critical Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no clear evidence)
Int 14+ (minimum to cast Shout as a wizard)
Wis 14+ (minimum to cast Inflict Critical Wounds as a cleric)
Cha 10+ (no evidence, assumed not to be a Sorcerer or Favored Soul)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (?): Unknown.
Abilities: Unknown.
Items: Unknown.
Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout.

The Sapphire Guard

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased)
Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 12+ (not yet seen to cast spells, but believed to have a positive modifier)
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
Feats (7+): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), possibly Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html).
Skills (40+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes).
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows. Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.
Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).
Items: Armor, Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.

Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no clear evidence)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 10+ (unknown, although probably enough to cast Paladin spells)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (?): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Cold-iron katana, armor.

Runolfr

2006-09-06, 03:28 PM

Incidentally, I'm pleased to see the thread I started become so popular and enduring.

Blood

2006-09-06, 03:47 PM

You made the new Linear Guild members, but what about the old ones? Yikyik, Hilgya, Zz'dtri? Not to mention Miko and perhaps some other important characters. It's fun to read all these characters' stats.

Kish

2006-09-06, 05:05 PM

My numbers--particularly for Belkar--are a little different from Wrecan's, so I should post them here, too.

These are, of course, a pure thought exercise: the Giant has made it clear (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq6a) he doesn't have and doesn't want to be restricted by hard and fast numbers for the Order, and also that he's already bent the rules when it makes it funny (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635976 ;start=4#4). To what extent these numbers are accurate, they will probably cease to be as soon as something in them would obstruct a joke--and I wouldn't have it any other way. If I believed the Giant would feel in any way bound by these, I wouldn't post them.

Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good, Human Male Fighter 12+ (same level as Haley (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1136210768 ;start=65#65) and Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1132340412 ;start=488#488).)
Attributes:
Str 17+ (if any member of the Order would shun the powergaming fighter-with-18-Strength approach, it's Roy.)
Dex <=13 (wears heavy (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=67) armor, may have taken Dexterity to 13 for some feats, yet to be determined)
Con =>12 (has a lot of hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=36).)
Int =>14 ("very good" according to the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200))
Wis =>14 ("very good" according to the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200))
Cha =>10, <Intelligence and Wisdom ("decent" according to the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200). He can lead the Order, but not always get along with them. No demonstrated skills at influencing strangers, though Celia is attracted to him.)
Feats (>12): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=102), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=64).
Skills: Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=1), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=141). No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=139), no Sense Motive (On the Origin of PCs).
Abilities: - Bonus feat, +4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point per level, fighter bonus feats, access to Weapon Specialization

Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133438285 ;start=3#3), Halfling Male Ranger 11+/Barbarian 1
Attributes:
Str =>16 (probably focuses on this ability score above all others, in line with his obsession with killing quickly and bloodily; used for Jump skill)
Dex 12-16? (Belkar is not exactly good at min-maxing, as witness his current XP penalty, though he tries to, and thinks Defense is for Losers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html) [the title of strip #107]. We know [Dungeon Crawling Fools] that he has a significantly lower Hide skill roll than Haley.
Con =>12? (second or third priority, after Strength, and either after or before Dexterity)
Int ~10 (hasn't proven himself to be especially intelligent or unintelligent, compared to the average person.)
Wis 3-6 (no ability to notice things, dedication, or common sense (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=banter;action=display;num=1087527921 ;start=25#25), the Giant has stated that he has a low (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1133335443 ;start=2#2) Wisdom, he has no self-awareness (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1101893326 ;start=57#57), he calls himself a brain-dead moron (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) without ever realizing that's what he's saying, he is unable to resist the urge for mindless destruction even when it nearly gets him killed (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=157), he has no short-term memory (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=179), he knows his Wisdom is less than Miko's without asking, though having seen her combat abilities he could easily suspect she used it as a dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=213); in the same strip, Roy says it's physically impossible for him to feel stupid after talking to Belkar, which suggests Belkar has low Intelligence and Wisdom both. Vaarsuvius says it's ridiculously low (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=58) [or Vaarsuvius says it's 12 in a way and context that makes no sense at all, if you prefer]. Finally, Belkar conducted a plan which nearly got him killed without realizing that he wouldn't be resurrected if it did. Belkar should technically need a Wisdom of at least 10 without magical aid to cast Cure Serious Wounds with a single by-the-book 3.5ed Owl's Wisdom, but comparing that example to the mountain of evidence for his Wisdom being really low, I think it's obvious that this is a case of the Giant bending the rules when it makes it funny.)
Cha 6-10 (no evidence, never uses any Charisma-based skill. Note that audience popularity doesn't reflect on in-strip Charisma score, or Thog's half-orc Charisma penalty would make him much less popular than he is.)
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image, Endurance, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Track, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Skills: Climb, Craft (Trapmaking), Hide (probably maxed), probably Intimidate (7 + whatever he put into it on gaining his barbarian level), Jump (probably maxed), Move Silently (probably maxed). No Sense Motive, Spot or Survival.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion (none yet), Evasion, Fast movement, Favored class - rogue, Favored enemy x3, Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric 12+
Attributes
Str =>12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex <=10 (wears full plate armor)
Con =>12 (probably at least dwarven average, as he seems neither remarkably frail nor remarkably tough)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis =>16 (to cast Heal)
Cha <=10 (mentions having low Charisma, but can Turn Undead)
Feats (>4): Unknown.
Skills (>29): No Ride
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants, +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, Darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability, stonecunning, turn undead, weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)

Elan
Chaotic Good, Human Male Bard 12+
Attributes:
Str <=10 (no evidence, uses a finessable weapon, sprained wrist carrying treasure)
Dex =>14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int <=8 (no evidence, but acts like an idiot)
Wis <=8 (Roy says he has insufficient Wisdom to be a cleric; knocked out by Vaarsuvius' speech (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=10) along with Belkar and all the goblins but the [presumably high-Wisdom] cleric, blows up mountains, shouts when sneaking, etc.)
Cha 18-19 (stated by Haley, may well have increased when he leveled up)
Feats: Weapon Finesse, probably.
Skills: Bluff (probably maxed), Diplomacy (probably maxed), Perform (Lute) (probably maxed), Perform (Kazoo), Ride =>2, Tumble. Has "a ton of points in Charisma-based skills."
Abilities: Bonus feat, +4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point per level, bardic music, bardic knowledge, countersong, fascinate, inspire competence, inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, suggestion
Spells (per day > 3 4 4 2; known > 6 4 4 3): Animate Rope, Disguise Self, Silent Image, Summon Plot Exposition

Haley Starshine
Chaotic Non-evil (was Good when she activated the Air Sigil, may have since shifted to Neutral), Human Female Rogue 12+
Attributes
Str <=10 (doesn't carry any melee weapon)
Dex 20-21 (confirmed by the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1136210768 ;start=60#65))
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int =>14 (as smart as Roy, according to Dungeon Crawling Fools)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha =>14, <22 (clearly attractive and persuasive, but her Charisma lower than Samantha's. Has actually made Bluff and Diplomacy checks, and usually succeeded on them, at least once [On the Origin of PCs] suckering Roy with a ridiculously weak claim.)
Feats (6): Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot.
Skills (>150): Appraise (high), Bluff (high), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide, Knowledge, Open Lock (maxed), Search, Sense Motive, Tumble, Use Rope =>8. No Ride.
Abilities:Bonus feat, +4 skill points at first level, +1 skill point per level, Evasion, Improved uncanny dodge, Sneak attack +6d6, Special ability, Trapfinding, Trap sense +4, Uncanny dodge

Vaarsuvius
Non-evil alignment, Elven Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (Evoker) 12+, Conjuration barred
Attributes
Str <=9 (mentions Str penalty)
Dex 10-11 ("no real attack bonus" on rays, according to the Giant)
Con <=10 ("doesn't have a decent Con" according to the Giant)
Int 18-19 (tells illithid, very likely to have increased since then)
Wis ~10 ("moderate wisdom" according to giant)
Cha <=9 (has a low Charisma, according to the Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1114921767 ;start=316#316), and according to himself/herself (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=128). )
Feats: Alertness (granted by Blackwing the raven), Improved Counterspell (or makes heavy use of Dispels, or prefers to prepare a spell list very similar to Samantha's--a real possibility considering the affinity both showed for blowing things up), Martial Weapon Proficiency (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Scribe Scroll. Not Silent Spell or Still Spell.
Skills (91): Concentrate, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcana), Spellcraft. No Ride.
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Favored class - wizard, Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (raven, Blackwing)
Spells in spellbook: Cone of Cold, Crushing Despair, Disintegrate, Dispel Magic, Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion, Expeditious Retreat, Explosive Runes, Feather Fall, Fireball, Hold Person, Hold Portal, Identify, Invisibility, discount Invisibility Sphere, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Owl's Wisdom, Power Word Blind, Protection From Arrows, Scorching Ray, Sleep, Suggestion.

Runolfr

2006-09-06, 05:42 PM

Deuce

2006-09-06, 05:44 PM

OK, so just to carry over from the last thread - what's the thinking on Durkon having Still Spell?

Evidence? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html)

Panel 9, a bound Durkon casts Thor's Lightning.

Could be a Stilled Spell, could be some type of Domain power or ability for Clerics of Thor, or it could be that Thor's Lightning is a spell with no Somantic component.

It seems to me that Thor's Lightning is most likely a Diety Specific version of Call Lightning.

Runolfr

2006-09-06, 05:54 PM

OK, so just to carry over from the last thread - what's the thinking on Durkon having Still Spell?

I would require a non-Core feat from Complete Arcane, but he might have Sudden Still.

Rama_Lei

2006-09-06, 06:28 PM

Int <9 (V tells Elan he lacks the Int to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=127))

Elan can use cantrips. He makes illusinons quite often.

Castamir

2006-09-06, 06:35 PM

Int <9 (V tells Elan he lacks the Int to cast cantrips (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=127))

Elan can use cantrips. He makes illusinons quite often.

Don't forget that bards are arcane casters, too -- except they use CHA instead of INT. Elan has plenty of CHA, but he's incapable of casting any wizard INT-based spell.

rwald

2006-09-06, 08:44 PM

And since we're at it, we might want to have a master list for some other recurring characters, like the Linear Guild. Here's a quick start on their stats...

Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 12
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~18 (no evidence, Druid)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (60): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: Staff (properties unknown)

If Leeky animated the trees with Animate Plants, he has to be at least 13th level (since he only gets 7th level spells at that level.) True, if his staff is a Staff of the Woodlands, that could explain the spell (though can a druid cast a 7th level spell from a staff if he is not himself at least 13th level? I don't know.). It could also be a series of Awaken X and Command Plants, which would allow Leeky to be at level 12 (or even lower), but I'm not sure I believe that's the proper explanation.

Given the way he phrased his challenge ("Gaze in fear as the trees of your much-vaunted 'municipal park' angrily awaken to wreck bloody vengeance on you for incarcerating them in a well-mowed prison"), it seems that these trees are the very same trees which have stood in this park for years, and not the result of some sort of summoning or illusion spell. In any event, I think this is reason enough to believe Leeky is at least level 13 (and if we find that the trees are Huge, not just Large, that bumps him up to level 14 or possessing the aforementioned Staff, since he would need two castings of Animate Plants to get all four trees).

For those who might claim "But he has to be level 12 because the Order is," remember that Pompey may be lower, so that the average character level of the LG is still 12.

Deuce

2006-09-06, 10:23 PM

I would require a non-Core feat from Complete Arcane, but he might have Sudden Still.

Since my library lacks the Complete Arcane, could you give me the gist of that feat? Is it an option for a pure Divine caster?

rwald

2006-09-06, 11:01 PM

Sudden Still [Metamagic]

You can cast a spell without gestures or special preparation
Special: Once per day, you can apply the effect of the Still Spell feat to any spell you cast without increasing the level of the spell or specially preparing it ahead of time. You can still use Still Spell normally if you have it.

TinSoldier

2006-09-06, 11:38 PM

Regarding Durkon and Sudden Still and Still Spell, has it occurred to anyone that this is a 2D comic that has problems showing somatic components?

Plus where is the spell "Thor's Lightning" found? I'm familiar with Call Lightning (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm) (Druid 3), Call Lightning Storm (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightningStorm.htm) (Druid 5), Chain Lightning (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm) (Air 6, Sorceror/Wizard 6) -- that's a possibility, and Lightning Bolt (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) (Sorceror/Wizard 3).

So, is there another spell it could be?

Leeroy_Jenkins

2006-09-07, 02:52 AM

Plus where is the spell "Thor's Lightning" found? I'm familiar with Call Lightning (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightning.htm) (Druid 3), Call Lightning Storm (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/callLightningStorm.htm) (Druid 5), Chain Lightning (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm) (Air 6, Sorceror/Wizard 6) -- that's a possibility, and Lightning Bolt (http://d20srd.org/srd/spells/lightningBolt.htm) (Sorceror/Wizard 3).

So, is there another spell it could be?

I had assumed it was an OotS (and SRD compliant!) variation of Chain Lightning, which, as you note, is an Air 6 spell. Durkon would have the levels to cast it, and Air seems like a likely domain for Thor.

Soepvork

2006-09-07, 05:22 AM

Regarding Durkon and Sudden Still and Still Spell, has it occurred to anyone that this is a 2D comic that has problems showing somatic components?

But then again, Durkon is tied up in the comic in question, so he can't do somatic components

Wrecan

2006-09-07, 08:50 AM

Durkon having the Air Domain also fits nicely with his original evil opposite -- Hilgya -- having the Fire Domain (which she uses to command the fire creatures in the Figil Sigil area).

Morty

2006-09-07, 09:09 AM

Belkar- Wis 3-6
Actually, his wisdom is 10- otherwise he couldn't have used CSW scroll even with help(yeah I know only technically, but this thread is about mechanics). And 10 wisdom is 'low' anyway. It's just not completely dump stat.

TinSoldier

2006-09-07, 09:33 AM

But then again, Durkon is tied up in the comic in question, so he can't do somatic componentsOh yeah :-[ . I missed that little fact at first glance...

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 09:36 AM

If Leeky animated the trees with Animate Plants, he has to be at least 13th level (since he only gets 7th level spells at that level.)

True, but he could conceivably have used Control Plants (a 4th level spell) to charm some Treants and then sneaked them into town somehow (possibly with Invisibility spells cast by Pompey... this is a trap, after all).

I find it unlikely that Nale would hire someone higher level than himself, and I've got him pegged at 12, which seems to be the average level for the OotS at this time.

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 09:38 AM

Since my library lacks the Complete Arcane, could you give me the gist of that feat? Is it an option for a pure Divine caster?

It's not class-restricted. In a nutshell, you can cast any spell you know as a Still Spell once per day without affecting its level.

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 09:43 AM

Regarding Durkon and Sudden Still and Still Spell, has it occurred to anyone that this is a 2D comic that has problems showing somatic components?

The problem in this particular instance is that Durkon was tied up when he cast Thor's Lightning.

Plus where is the spell "Thor's Lightning" found?

I believe Call Lightning is in the Weather Domain list from Complete Divine, and I suspect that Thor has a similar domain spell in the OotS-verse. That's probably what Durkon calls Thor's Lightning.

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 09:45 AM

Actually, his wisdom is 10- otherwise he couldn't have used CSW scroll even with help(yeah I know only technically, but this thread is about mechanics). And 10 wisdom is 'low' anyway. It's just not completely dump stat.

Kish specifically argued that the Owl's Wisdom incident was a case of Rich bending the rules to make a funny. Wisdom 10 is not low; it's average.

Deuce

2006-09-07, 09:53 AM

It's not class-restricted. In a nutshell, you can cast any spell you know as a Still Spell once per day without affecting its level.

OK, thanks for the info (and to the other poster above). I do like that option even better then Still Spell, as I can't really think of a good reason for Durkon to have prepared Thor's Lightning as a Stilled Spell ahead of time. Using the once-a-day feat on a spell I'm sure he always has prepared makes more sense.

Soepvork

2006-09-07, 10:02 AM

OK, thanks for the info (and to the other poster above). I do like that option even better then Still Spell, as I can't really think of a good reason for Durkon to have prepared Thor's Lightning as a Stilled Spell ahead of time. Using the once-a-day feat on a spell I'm sure he always has prepared makes more sense.

Except that I *think* Rich bases the comic on Open material only... which Sudden Still isn't :)

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 12:41 PM

Except that I *think* Rich bases the comic on Open material only... which Sudden Still isn't :)

In which case it probably becomes a "Rich bent the rules because it was funny" incident. ;D

TinSoldier

2006-09-07, 12:46 PM

In which case it probably becomes a "Rich bent the rules because it was funny" incident. ;DThat was my assumption.

Ugly_Panda

2006-09-07, 01:04 PM

Durkon has a special "Thor" homebrew domain.

He uses righteous might in this comic, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0111.html) which is in the strength domain. He uses a warhammer, which isn't on a cleric's proficiency list. This means he probably has the war domain. Neither one of those domains contains lightning spells, so Durkon must be using a special domain that contains either the spell or granted ability from one of them. Since he calls his lightning spell "Thor's lightning" and calls righteous might "Thor's might", he most likely posesses a homebrew domain which renames every spell.

Kish

2006-09-07, 01:45 PM

Actually, his wisdom is 10- otherwise he couldn't have used CSW scroll even with help

Please go back and actually read all of the post you responded to.

And 10 wisdom is 'low' anyway.

Exactly average, actually. And I'm sorry, the idea that Belkar's Wisdom is average is laughable.

Runolfr

2006-09-07, 02:15 PM

Ugly_Panda

2006-09-07, 02:55 PM

There is homebrew stuff in OOTS (i.e. Evard's black tentacles of forced intrusion, summon plot exposition, etc.). If you claim DM fiat, then the OOTS can have almost any stats since the strip never shows the DM.

Noneoyabizzness

2006-09-07, 07:03 PM

wouldn't belkar being a wis=9 be right in rules terms?

less than avg, gets penalty to spot and such, and owl's wisdom would make using CSW off a scroll possibile?

Wrecan

2006-09-07, 07:10 PM

Wisdom 9 does not allow him to use a Cure Serious Wounds scroll after receiving Owl's Wisdom. He would need a 14 Wisdom to use that scroll and Owl's Wisdom only gets him to 13.

I actually think that V's perception of Belkar's Wisdom is skewed. Belkar is animalistic and most animals have average to above average Wisdom. V is using it in it's colloquical sense of being able to distinguish right from wrong and in that sense, V has no Wisdom. However, in D&D, Wisdom relates to other things.

Caelestion

2006-09-07, 07:13 PM

Cure Serious Wounds is a 3rd-level spell, which is castable with a mere Wisdom 13.

Brickwall

2006-09-07, 08:46 PM

Belkar? The up in Wisdom gave him enough Sanity points to be non-psychotic (he has those just for himself). It was probably at 9 before.

Wrecan

2006-09-07, 10:56 PM

Cure Serious Wounds is a 3rd-level spell, which is castable with a mere Wisdom 13.
As a 4th level ranger spell, Belkar (a ranger) requires a 14 Wisdom to cast it. 13 is insufficient. Were Belkar a cleric, you would be correct. He isn't.

IonStorm

2006-09-07, 11:31 PM

The problem in this particular instance is that Durkon was tied up when he cast Thor's Lightning.

He could have prayed for it and been granted the power by Thor. Alternatively, he could have a still-spell metamagic rod in his pocket :)

Kish

2006-09-08, 12:11 AM

Belkar is animalistic

I'm reminded of an exchange from the latest Jungle Book movie. Mowgli, being animalistic, has no concept of "hate."

V is using it in it's colloquical sense of being able to distinguish right from wrong and in that sense, [Belkar] has no Wisdom. However, in D&D, Wisdom relates to other things.
I would venture that, in the Order of the Stick, Wisdom relates to the ability to distinguish right from wrong too, or Belkar would never have reacted the way he did to having more Wisdom.

Wrecan

2006-09-08, 09:18 AM

I'm reminded of an exchange from the latest Jungle Book movie. Mowgli, being animalistic, has no concept of "hate."
Anybody who actually knows animals would know that to be untrue. By cat has a true hatred for one of the dogs next door. The fact that it had no problem with the other dog living next door indicates that the problem was not territory but actual hate.

I would venture that, in the Order of the Stick, Wisdom relates to the ability to distinguish right from wrong too, or Belkar would never have reacted the way he did to having more Wisdom.
Belkar didn't become pacifistic until after healing people -- something he never did before. I would argue that his momentary spate of altruism was born of his increased perceptive abilities -- specifically the ability to feel empathy, which was lost when he lost his Wisdom.

Belkar clearly has the ability to judge right from wrong, or else he would never have been able to figure out what would cause Miko to fall. He knows right from wrong, but without the increased sensistivity of Wisdom, he gains no pleasure from being good. That's not because he has an unsually low Wisdom, but because he's a sociopath.

denelian

2006-09-11, 05:03 AM

in the list of Roy's feats, there is no mention of his charge attacks - those would be a feat, no?

(please forgive me if i am wrong - my group never left 2.0...)

Wrecan

2006-09-11, 08:48 AM

No, charging is something anybody can do. Roy wouldn't have a charge feat.

Runolfr

2006-09-15, 10:28 AM

Xykon
Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 18+ (reportedly cast Meteor Swarm in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha >19 (High-level Sorcerer, used Meteor Swarm)
Feats (5+): Unknown
Skills (60+): Unknown (knowledge is likely to be prominent); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Unknown – original possessions confiscated by the Order of the Stick
Spells Known: Animate Dead, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm, Shatter, Symbol of Pain, Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html).

Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin Male, Cleric 12+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~18 (no evidence)
Cha >14 10 (no evidence)
Feats (5+): Unknown
Skills (60+): Unknown; +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (unspecified), darkvision 60'.
Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery)

Thing in the Dark
Little is known about the thing in the dark, but it is probably a credible threat to 12th-level characters.

LordOfNarf

2006-09-15, 11:46 PM

More likely, he simply gets warhammer proficiency by DM fiat for choosing Thor as his patron. Strength and either Air or Weather would be reasonable domains for Thor. Air is the most likely, since it's an OGL domain.

In Deities and Demigods, Thor is good for Chaos, Good, Protection, Strength, War and Weather.

Looking at the Weather domain, call lighting is most likely, and righteous might is a spell usable by any cleric. So it looks like Weather and War to me. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm new to this thread.)

And since Belkars Double has been Identified, sttaters, start your engines....

rwald

2006-09-16, 12:22 AM

Well, since Durkon is clearly LG, either the Thor he worships isn't the Deities and Demigods one or they're playing under Eberron deity rules (whereby you can be any alignment and worship a deity of any alignment -- yes, that means paladins of CE gods are allowed). Either way, though, it seems that the Weather domain is a logical choice for Thor, and I wouldn't be surprised if all of Durkon's powers can be explained using just two "real" domains (no DM-created ones).

Dudukain

2006-09-16, 11:42 AM

YokYok
Male Kobold Swashbuckler/Duelist 11

STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 15

Possessions: Mwk. Rapier.

Just a guess, mostly.

Kish

2006-09-16, 12:53 PM

Belkar clearly has the ability to judge right from wrong, or else he would never have been able to figure out what would cause Miko to fall.

Here you're assuming something not proven--that Miko would actually have Fallen if she killed him. Belkar's concept of ethics states that it's wrong to get in his way; this is neither news nor evidence of Wisdom.

tis_tom

2006-09-16, 03:22 PM

Runolfr

2006-09-17, 08:57 AM

YokYok
Male Kobold Swashbuckler/Duelist 11

STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 13
WIS: 12
CHA: 15

Possessions: Mwk. Rapier.

Just a guess, mostly.

I'd like to get more information before trying to stat him out. I think Duellist is a safe bet, but there's not much information on his base class. As Swashbuckler isn't a core class, I find it unlikely.

rwald

2006-09-17, 05:14 PM

By "isn't a core class" you mean "is a base class published in Complete Warrior but not released to the SRD"? I personally don't think that would stop Rich from making fun of it if he desired. I mean, there was the "squid thingie" in the early comics, and that wasn't released to the SRD either. I personally am more likely to believe that Yokyok has some levels in Swashbuckler than that he has some levels in Duelist, though I grant that we don't really have enough information to tell either way. He may also have a few levels in rogue (Sneak Attack and Insightful Strike stack).

Dudukain

2006-09-17, 05:51 PM

Oh...

Ninja Waitress
Female Human Ninja 2

Wrecan

2006-09-17, 07:21 PM

Here you're assuming something not proven--that Miko would actually have Fallen if she killed him. Belkar's concept of ethics states that it's wrong to get in his way; this is neither news nor evidence of Wisdom.

Belkar knows that getting in his way won't cause a fall. Miko's been getting in his way since she showed up and clearly hasn't fallen. Even Elan could figure that one out.

Belkar was clearly trying to get her to kill him in front of her own superiors. He was trying to get her to kill him needlessly. Whether or not that would cause a fall, it certainly shows an ability to engage in moral discernment, which is enough to show that Belkar is not devoid of Wisdom.

Snake-Aes

2006-09-18, 01:22 PM

wombat31

2006-09-18, 02:47 PM

Xykon
Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 12+ (probably higher, as he’s a major villain)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~14 (smart enough to devise fiendish plans)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha >18 (High-level Sorcerer)
Feats (5+): Unknown
Skills (60+): Unknown (knowledge is likely to be prominent); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks.
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Unknown – original possessions confiscated by the Order of the Stick
Spells Known: Animate Dead, Lightning Bolt, Magic Missile, Shatter, Symbol of Pain

Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin Male, Cleric 12+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~18 (no evidence)
Cha >14 10 (no evidence)
Feats (5+): Unknown
Skills (60+): Unknown; +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (unspecified), darkvision 60'.
Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery)

Thing in the Dark
Little is known about the thing in the dark, but it is probably a credible threat to 12th-level characters.

Xykon is at least 18th level. in No cure for the palidin blues he casts Meteor Swarm which is a 9th level spell and for a sorcerer to cast he would have to have a charisma of 19+ and be 18+ level

Runolfr

2006-09-18, 05:11 PM

Xykon is at least 18th level. in No cure for the palidin blues he casts Meteor Swarm which is a 9th level spell and for a sorcerer to cast he would have to have a charisma of 19+ and be 18+ level

Is this not in the online strip archive? I'd like to link to the evidence for these additions.

wombat31

2006-09-19, 04:28 AM

Its one of the new bonus comics in the book. if this means it doesn't count then discount what i posted previously

Runolfr

2006-09-19, 09:26 AM

Its one of the new bonus comics in the book. if this means it doesn't count then discount what i posted previously

No, it's a perfectly legitimate source (even though I haven't seen it); it would just be nice to have an online reference if there is one.

Wrecan

2006-09-19, 01:21 PM

He's not blind to the world, he's just a psycho evil halfling with a blind rage.

Sociopath, anyone?

His reaction on the owl's wisdom thing isn't, in my eyes, because the extra wisdom, but the feeling he felt when he healed Elan...somethign that he lost when Owl's wisdom was dismissed, letting him uncapable to feel that again.
Not necessarily frustrating, he's devoid of good.
Great theory! I like it. Except of course, Belkar could always just get a wand of cure moderate wounds if he gets pleasure from cure spells. Maybe a wand doesn't give the same pleasure as spell completion...

Snake-Aes

2006-09-19, 03:39 PM

I wouldn't think he ever bothered getting a wand when he could enhance each dagger for an extra +1 ;)

He had the scrool at hand, and was particularly cheerful due to his new level of perception... And it was plot-interesting, of course \o/

Devils_Advocate

2006-09-19, 05:01 PM

Vaarsuvuis's other barred school must be Necromancy, because we've seen V cast spells from every school besides Necromancy and Conjuration. The Vampiric Touch in V's spellbook is obviously a holdover from 3.0, when an Evoker who barred Conjuration didn't need to bar another school (and didn't miss out on any teleportation spells).

Weather and War look like the most likely domains for Durkon to me.

Except that I *think* Rich bases the comic on Open material only... which Sudden Still isn't :)
Nor are half-ogres or zombie dragons, unless I'm mistaken, but one of each of those has appeared in the comic. So I guess you thought wrong. ;)

Doug_Lampert

2006-09-19, 05:20 PM

Nor are half-ogres or zombie dragons, unless I'm mistaken, but one of each of those has appeared in the comic. So I guess you thought wrong. ;)

Zombie is a template, it is in the SRD and can be applied to Dragons. Dragons are also in the SRD. Thus a Zombie Dragon is clearly open source since everything in the SRD is open source.

IIRC the write-up of half-Ogres in Savage Species was explicitly open source, but I could be wrong.

ibitak84

2006-09-20, 07:36 AM

Even if not, other half-things are. If you add any half-template that's from the SRD to an ogre, which definitely is core, you'll get an half-ogre that is just as open content as the original template, I'd say. (Though I'm pretty sure the Half-Ogre in the comic was half-human or half-orc or something.)

Wrecan

2006-09-20, 02:08 PM

Nor are half-ogres or zombie dragons, unless I'm mistaken, but one of each of those has appeared in the comic. So I guess you thought wrong. ;)

Zombies as stated, are templates that can be added to dragons.

The ogre bloodline (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm#ogre) is a variant rule that is in the SRD. It is the only variant rule I've seen Burlew use.

tyrinoc

2006-09-21, 05:34 PM

Well, since Durkon is clearly LG, either the Thor he worships isn't the Deities and Demigods one or they're playing under Eberron deity rules (whereby you can be any alignment and worship a deity of any alignment -- yes, that means paladins of CE gods are allowed).

I could be wrong, but aren't you allowed to be a different alignment from your diety as long as you are within one step of that diety's alignment?

Wrecan

2006-09-21, 06:28 PM

Yes, but the Deities and Demigods Thor is CG, which would only allow CN, CG and NG clerics. Durkon is LG.

Clearly, the OOTS gods are not derived from the Deiteis and Demigods book.

ibitak84

2006-09-22, 04:56 AM

Durkon seems confused about his god (as well as other things, i.e. trees) in more then one aspect. (Think "...he's better of not knowing the truth.") I think it'd be best to assume that the OotS-Thor is mostly identical to the Thor from WotC sources. At least as long as the alignment difference happens to be the only contradiction.

Kish

2006-09-22, 06:16 AM

I think it'd be best to assume that the OotS-Thor is mostly identical to the Thor from WotC sources.

Personally, I can't see any upside to that assumption.

At least as long as the alignment difference happens to be the only contradiction.
They already aren't. The whole origin story of the OotS universe, with the Snarl, doesn't square at all with the background of the Norse gods in the book where they're statted, the author has stated clearly that he chose Thor because he could expect non-D&D players to recognize him, unlike, say, Moradin, and--why is it desirable to believe that OotS hews strictly to every D&D supplement? Is being able to look up the Challenge Rating of Durkon's god valuable enough to make up for any lack of accuracy?

Maybe OotS Thor is identical to WotC Thor in every respect not yet established to be different. Maybe he's similar only in the handful of details that are established to be the same. It's not logical to assume either.

Soepvork

2006-09-22, 07:33 AM

yes, that means paladins of CE gods are allowed

Aren't paladins of a CE deity already allowed by RAW (not including the paladin of slaughter variant)? I can't remember paladins have a restriction like clerics do.

As a matter of fact, in one of the campaigns I'm playing, we have a palading of Hextor, doing the bidding of Hextor without knowing the "true" intent.

rwald

2006-09-22, 11:44 PM

Soepvork

2006-09-23, 06:55 AM

In the rules as written, paladins (of honor, to be clear) are required to be LG. No choice, no alternative, it doesn't matter what god you worship, you've got to be LG. If you had an actual LG paladin of Hextor, he could just be confused, but that would go along with the Eberron-style rules (wherein the gods don't interact much with mortals, so it's easy to become confused.)

I know pally's have to be LG, but (strictly taken) there's no restriction on the choice of the God right? I could imagine an evil deity supporting a (LG) paladin as part of some kind of grand scheme.

To get back on topic, did anyone ever notice Nale wears a chain shirt, just like Elan? Now that's an odd choice for a (partly) sorceror :)

Finwe

2006-09-24, 01:40 AM

Xykon was able to defeat Dorukon in a duel, and Dorukon, judging from his reference to "Epic magic" in the OotR, is probably at least level 21. So Xykon is almost definately in the 20+ range.

Runolfr

2006-09-24, 08:28 PM

Xykon was able to defeat Dorukon in a duel, and Dorukon, judging from his reference to "Epic magic" in the OotR, is probably at least level 21. So Xykon is almost definately in the 20+ range.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Simply by virtue of being a Lich, Xykon has a lot of built-in advantages in combat (assorted resistances, 12-sided hit dice, and such). If Dorukan were lured into a fight unprepared, it wouldn't necessarily be that hard for Xykon to defeat him, even if he were a few levels lower.

WildBill

2006-09-26, 01:49 PM

Well, we just saw Durkon cast a 7th level spell, so it looks like the Order did go up a level.

Wrecan

2006-09-26, 04:56 PM

He used a scroll.

LordOfNarf

2006-09-26, 07:57 PM

He used a scroll.

Don't you still have to be a high enough level to use a scroll to cast a spell?

HomerHT

2006-09-26, 09:56 PM

Nope, just gotta have the stat high enough to have the potential to cast whatever level spell you're casting, so we can assume Durkon has at least 17 WIS.

Soepvork

2006-09-27, 06:32 AM

Or Durkon pulled of a succesful UMD check to emulate Wis 17 (unlikely, but possible)

ibitak84

2006-09-27, 07:05 AM

It's been suggested that thisl is a scroll of miracle (or some other, not necessarily as high-level spell), not of control weather,too -Because of the additional effects that are not usually part of a Control Weather spell.
And aren't the OotS about 13th level? I vaguely remember somebody quoting the Ginat saying they are generic mid-level chars (Which would be anywhere between 10th to 14th level, right?), and they went up a level at least twice in the strip.

Wrecan

2006-09-27, 09:15 AM

Nope, just gotta have the stat high enough to have the potential to cast whatever level spell you're casting, so we can assume Durkon has at least 17 WIS.

Good catch! I've modified Durkon's stats (found on first post of this thread)

Also, the scroll is probably not a miracle scroll. First, Miracle is cast as a standard action and Durkon was muttering his Miracle for at least a few actions. Second, he was muttering "control weather", not "miracle" and under the rules of the OOTSiverse, that means he was casting Control Weather. I think Durkon simply relied on the fact that lightning tends to strike trees. (Another reason why Durkon likes Thor, god of Lightning)

ibitak84

2006-09-27, 11:04 AM

Well, yes. The reason the scroll might be something different the Control Weather is that he might have cast another spell in addition to Control Weather (which he has definitely cast) for the really flashy effect.

Arteyu

2006-09-27, 06:14 PM

Well the huge impact part is obviously either just an excuse to kill the trees. Or we could analyze Thors domain powers further and assume that he gets bonuses on Thunder & Lightning spells on some level.

ibitak84

2006-09-28, 07:31 AM

I guess I'll take all back; it was just control weather paired with a little direct divine intervention (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html) after all.

ilikebasketball

2006-09-30, 08:20 AM

Mmmm..

Who's in favor of saying that Julia is a sorcerer, somewhere at level 2+?

She seems to have the charisma, and sez she's out of spells after attacking the centipedes...

IonStorm

2006-09-30, 12:08 PM

Since Leeky is able to assume the form of a dire bear (12 HD), he must be at least 12th level.

fangthane

2006-09-30, 05:51 PM

Who's in favor of saying that Julia is a sorcerer, somewhere at level 2+?
Not a chance. She's a wizard; she has to be or Eugene would have held her in contempt as well.

I'd tend to think she's level 3-4 given that she had two magic missiles in the air simultaneously in the Centipede panel. She couldn't have done that without being 3rd level at least, and there'd be no reason to underpower it if she were 5th or greater. Odds are she's just out of combat magic or had a limited set still prepared (or lacks material components); the missiles cinch the level range though.

Leeky has to be as listed, pretty much; he could have cast Animate Plants off a scroll to get the trees going (and would need a 2 or better on his caster level check roll) easily at level 12 and needs to be 12 to become the bear. He might be 13th, but he needn't be.

Finwe

2006-09-30, 06:58 PM

Not a chance. She's a wizard; she has to be or Eugene would have held her in contempt as well.

I'd tend to think she's level 3-4 given that she had two magic missiles in the air simultaneously in the Centipede panel. She couldn't have done that without being 3rd level at least, and there'd be no reason to underpower it if she were 5th or greater. Odds are she's just out of combat magic or had a limited set still prepared (or lacks material components); the missiles cinch the level range though.

Leeky has to be as listed, pretty much; he could have cast Animate Plants off a scroll to get the trees going (and would need a 2 or better on his caster level check roll) easily at level 12 and needs to be 12 to become the bear. He might be 13th, but he needn't be.

I don't really think that the centipede pannel can be used to determine Julia's level, as it was more for comedic value than to actualy show Julia's abilities. And, if the pannel can be taken as valid evidence, I would argue that since she fires only one missile at a time, she is probably only 1st-2nd level.

silvadel

2006-10-01, 11:14 AM

My guess:

Julia Level 1 wizard:

Str 8
Dex 14 (slipping from bonds, her moves, etc)
Con 14 (she faces the centipedes with grace -- if she had few enough hit points to be 1 shot I doubt she would)
Int 16+(1 point higher than roy or equal if he put points in)
Wis <=6 (she has shown NO wisdom at all thusfar, poor decisions, no real loyalty or willpower, no convictions, no shame, and is scatterbrained -- an interesting foil to belkars low wisdom)
Cha 16 (she has the looks and tries to use them(high charisma low wis)

fangthane

2006-10-01, 02:32 PM

I don't really think that the centipede pannel can be used to determine Julia's level, as it was more for comedic value than to actualy show Julia's abilities. And, if the pannel can be taken as valid evidence, I would argue that since she fires only one missile at a time, she is probably only 1st-2nd level.

Remember playing Centipede in the arcade? I'm guessing not completely, because I do. And I remember something about the game which you've apparently forgotten, and which has a bearing on Julia's level.

You only get one shot on the screen at a time, period. I know I had loads of instances where a flea saved my butt because it absorbed a shot and allowed me to get the spider before it ate me.

Which means she's level 3 or 4. Only one shot on screen at a time means that two shots is either an indication that she's 3rd or 4th level, or that Rich is much weaker on the comedy angle than I'd thought. Because how dumb of him would it be to assign comedic value to a Centipede reference which couldn't even happen in the real game unless it's a case of D&D differing from the original video game? The persecution rests ;)

Finwe

2006-10-01, 08:15 PM

Remember playing Centipede in the arcade? I'm guessing not completely, because I do. And I remember something about the game which you've apparently forgotten, and which has a bearing on Julia's level.

You only get one shot on the screen at a time, period. I know I had loads of instances where a flea saved my butt because it absorbed a shot and allowed me to get the spider before it ate me.

Which means she's level 3 or 4. Only one shot on screen at a time means that two shots is either an indication that she's 3rd or 4th level, or that Rich is much weaker on the comedy angle than I'd thought. Because how dumb of him would it be to assign comedic value to a Centipede reference which couldn't even happen in the real game unless it's a case of D&D differing from the original video game? The persecution rests ;)

The shots, however, were fired at different times, and the distance between the last shot and the first shot is longer than the distance between her hand and the last shot, so theoretically she could have cast more after that too.

fangthane

2006-10-02, 05:45 PM

Hmm, ok, you do have me there; the picture does indicate that she's at least level 3 but you're right; the rules of comicdom do indicate that while we know based on the video game and the PHB that she's got at least two missiles, comic timing prevents us being sure she doesn't have 3 or more missiles per casting.

You just had to find fault when I said I was resting, didn't you? ;)

Finwe

2006-10-02, 06:40 PM

tis_tom

2006-10-04, 06:16 AM

Durkon Thundershield
Lawful Good, Dwarven Male Cleric 12
Attributes (19 pt buy min):
Str >12 ("would make a good warrior")
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con >16 (dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis >17 (to use Control Weather scroll)
Cha <10 (mentions having low Cha, and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=312))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=16)...
Skills (>29): Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=52) >1 (but not much greater), Speak language (dwarven)... No Ride
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids, +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants, +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, Air Domain, Darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability, stonecunning, turn undead, War Domain, weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=130), full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=25), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=73), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer, riding horse...

I was reading comic 170 and shouldn't Durkon also have (somewhere) a giant gold tankard with W.W.T.D engraved upon it? What kind of idiot would throw away one of those?!

Sir_Norbert

2006-10-04, 06:36 AM

It was probably blown up with most of their other possessions.......

TinSoldier

2006-10-04, 10:27 AM

I was reading comic 170 and shouldn't Durkon also have (somewhere) a giant gold tankard with W.W.T.D engraved upon it? What kind of idiot would throw away one of those?!It's probably just in hammerspace.

Haarculaneaum

2006-10-04, 02:39 PM

Elan is intelligent. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1159939317 )

Runolfr

2006-10-09, 02:00 PM

Elan is intelligent.

Umm... no. I don't think it's possible to build a case for Elan being intelligent. He has occasional flashes of insight, but he's definitely not smart. About the only recurring character that I think he could consistently outsmart is Thog.

DougTheHead

2006-10-09, 03:38 PM

Am I the only one who thinks a constitution score of ~10 is a bit low for Roy? He took a lot of damage from Sabine at the outset of their fight, and didn't seem to be hurt much at all. And as far as we know, he didn't have any buff spells placed on him either.

Plus, although I know there are many people who don't "powergame," a low constitution score for a fighter? Strength and Constitution are the 2 most important qualities for a fighter to have. It seems kind of weird to hobble your fighter so badly in the name of roleplaying, especially when Dexterity is his likely dump stat (so in addition to not being able to take hits, he's not able to dodge them).

Krytha

2006-10-09, 08:20 PM

The low con and dex scores are attempts to explain away his high int, wis and cha scores... ALthough he frequently takes big beatings and he is too effective in combat to have an abyssmal dex score...

TheFallenOne

2006-10-10, 06:46 AM

Well lets not forget Roy only wears medium armor, his dex can't the that bad

Wrecan

2006-10-10, 08:53 AM

"~10" only means "I have no frickin' clue". We haven't been given much indication of what his Con could be. Roy has a d10 HD, so he already has a decent amount of hp.

Snake-Aes

2006-10-10, 02:55 PM

Well lets not forget Roy only wears medium armor, his dex can't the that bad

I was really looking forward to getting her alone and sliding that heavy armor off... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)

kerberos

2006-10-10, 03:05 PM

I was really looking forward to getting her alone and sliding that heavy armor off... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)
Heavy in this context doesn't necessarilly refer to the Light/medium/heavy clasifications.

TheFallenOne

2006-10-10, 05:42 PM

IonStorm

2006-10-12, 08:22 AM

Runolfr

2006-10-12, 10:09 AM

In 359 Leeky casts Firestorm (7th) and a Druid spell beginning with "Hea" this is either Heal (7th) or Heat Metal (2nd). Given the context, Heal makes more sense.
To cast 2 7th level spells Leeky is either a minimum of 13th level Druid with a wisdom of 24, or a 14th level Druid with a wisdom of 17. The latter minimum seems more likely.

I've upped his level to 13+ in the description, but since we can't confirm that he was trying to cast Heal, that's as far as I'm willing to go for now.

IonStorm

2006-10-12, 01:49 PM

I've upped his level to 13+ in the description, but since we can't confirm that he was trying to cast Heal, that's as far as I'm willing to go for now.

I thoroughly support your decision.

Skyserpent

2006-10-16, 12:01 AM

what else would he have been attempting to cast?

"Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain"?

Runolfr

2006-10-16, 12:04 AM

what else would he have been attempting to cast?

"Heat Blisters of Eternal Pain"?

With Roy and Durkon both in the immediate vicinity, Heat Metal isn't out of the question.

kerberos

2006-10-16, 02:14 AM

what else would he have been attempting to cast?
Heat Blast. ;D That's what I first thought he was doing.

Soepvork

2006-10-16, 11:23 AM

I already proved this in the old threat. Durkon is a dwarf in heavy armor, speed 20 ft, running speed x3. Roy in medium armor has speed 20 ft, running speed x4, Roy in heavy armor has speed 20 ft, running speed x3. So if Roy had heavy armor there wouldn't be any sense in him carrying Durkon when they are on the run

Roy is carrying him because Durkon can't run, seeing that he sleeps in a full plate (thus fatigued, thus unable to run), as can be seen in comic 16 :D

Snake-Aes

2006-10-16, 01:46 PM

Soepvork

2006-10-17, 02:46 AM

Dwarves don't receive fatigue penalties for sleeping inheavy armor, do they? Their movement isn't hampered, but base is 20 feet.

Roy seems to use heavy armor, at least that's what Belkar says (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html)...Base speed of 30, running of x3
Durkon has a base speed of 20, running of x3... Comical value?Roy has to be quite strong to be able to run with Durkon as if it was a light load

The usual explanation is as follows:

Roy is human in medium armor, so his movement is 20ft (medium armor) x 3 (running in medium armor)= 60 ft.

Durkon is a dwarf in heavy armor, resulting in 20 ft x 2 = 40 ft.

Personally, I like the sleeping idea more :)

prufock

2006-10-18, 02:06 PM

In 359 Leeky casts Firestorm (7th) and a Druid spell beginning with "Hea" this is either Heal (7th) or Heat Metal (2nd). Given the context, Heal makes more sense.
To cast 2 7th level spells Leeky is either a minimum of 13th level Druid with a wisdom of 24, or a 14th level Druid with a wisdom of 17. The latter minimum seems more likely.

A 24 wisdom, at 13th level, isn't all that unlikely. Assume he had an 18 at 1st level, raised every 4th level (+3) = 21, he could easily afford magic items (based on 13th level wealth guidelines) to boost that to 24 or even higher.

kits.dm

2006-10-18, 09:01 PM

Is it possible that Roy has the Run feat?
Seems kinda sensible for a high level fighter who doesn't really have many ranks in the Ride skill to have. ;)

It would put his running speed at around the same as Belkar (unless Belkar also has the run feat) not counting Belkar's Fast Movement ability.

And would definitely make Durkon the slowest moving party member

tis_tom

2006-10-19, 08:08 AM

I was just reading No Cure for the Paladin Blues, and it gave a better indication as to the levels of Xykon's group.

Xykon and Redcloak are owned by an Ancient Silver Dragon- which is CR level 23 I believe, and they weren't even making a scratch on it (despite Xykon's use of Meteor Swarm, making Xykon level 18+) They only won due to sheer luck, however they then scold the creature in the darkness for not being around to kill the dragon for them- implying that the Creature in the Dark is a. much more powerful than Xykon, and b. able to combat something of a CR rating of 23 on his OWN.

I'm wondering what on earth it could be :-|

Renegade Paladin

2006-10-20, 01:15 AM

The usual explanation is as follows:

Roy is human in medium armor, so his movement is 20ft (medium armor) x 3 (running in medium armor)= 60 ft.

Durkon is a dwarf in heavy armor, resulting in 20 ft x 2 = 40 ft.

Personally, I like the sleeping idea more :)
Running speed in medium armor is x4, and running speed in heavy armor is x3. You fail at geekery. ;D

Wrecan

2006-11-02, 11:59 AM

I've updated the links for the new forum software. I ca 't find the threads referenced in the post. Any help is appreciated.

Wrecan

2006-11-02, 01:48 PM

I added the new awesome OOTS smilies!

krossbow

2006-11-02, 01:56 PM

I'm wondering what on earth it could be :-|

It's pun-pun!

(for those who don't know, pun-pun is the name given to a build that lets you turn a kobold into a god at third level)
________
BUY EXTREME Q VAPORIZER (http://www.vaporshop.com/extreme-q-vaporizer.html)

fangthane

2006-11-02, 02:21 PM

A 24 wisdom, at 13th level, isn't all that unlikely. Assume he had an 18 at 1st level, raised every 4th level (+3) = 21, he could easily afford magic items (based on 13th level wealth guidelines) to boost that to 24 or even higher.
In order to have bonus spells, the ability score in question must be natural. Meaning that in order to have more than the basic single 7th level spell, his natural wisdom needs to be at least 24 if he's only 13th level, if we assume that the spell was indeed meant to be a Heal. And while a 24 item-adjusted score isn't unreasonable (indeed, a 24-25 is what most would get with a +4 item, eminently affordable at the level) it won't provide that extra spell slot.

As to Roy's armor, I don't think we've seen an explicit enough distinction of what variety it actually is. Could be either medium or heavy but in either case it's fair to say that Roy's AC bonus is more heavily dependent on metal (and magic bonus) than agility.

Runolfr

2006-11-03, 12:05 PM

Smilies added for villains, where applicable.

Any chance we could get this thread stickied?

Everto

2006-11-03, 04:13 PM

You know we could just wait for OOTS to be finished and ask the Giant for character sheets. He has stated that he couldn't make them because that would restrain too much on his imagination. But if OOTS iwas finished, he shouldn't have a problem making character sheets.
But ofcourse for the meantime speculation is fun.

Runolfr

2006-11-05, 07:24 AM

We're doing this because it's fun, not because we're dreadfully curious.

In the meantime, I've upped Redcloak's level to at least 13 because of the Destruction spell.

Brickwall

2006-11-05, 10:58 AM

Dragonmuncher

2006-11-05, 07:03 PM

Okay, I know there's no Miko entry, but I gotta know how she was able to one-hand-smite. I bet there's an Extra Smite feat somewhere (I may have seen it before), but her first Smite just couldn't have worked.

Hm? Smite Evil just adds extra damage to your attack- there's no stipulation that it must be a two-handed weapon.

Brickwall

2006-11-05, 09:56 PM

Runolfr

2006-11-06, 05:26 PM

You have to hold it in 2 hands. Okay, you did in 3.0. But I did check up on the extra/day thing. It just increases with levels. No biggie there.

Still, I distinctly remember a rule that one had to hold a weapon in 2 hands to smite. Somewhere, in some game manual, it says that.

Smite Evil (Su)
Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

No requirement for using two hands.

Runolfr

2006-11-06, 05:40 PM

I do believe we need to credit Elan with some ranks in Escape Artist.

My evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html

mikeejimbo

2006-11-06, 06:11 PM

I do believe we need to credit Elan with some ranks in Escape Artist.

My evidence: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0156.html

His hand is glowing. I took that to be "animate rope" more than escape artist.

Still, it wouldn't be surprising for him to have that, it is a bard skill after all.

Yzorth

2006-11-06, 10:42 PM

Um, guys...

Durkon is at LEAST level 13. Call Weather is a 7th level spell, so the lowest cleric level he could be is 13 to cast a 7th level spell.

You might wanna revise that.

Finwe

2006-11-06, 10:49 PM

He can cast it from a scroll at a lower level, provided that his wisdom is at least 17. And he used a scroll to cast it.

Runolfr

2006-11-07, 03:57 PM

Additional spells-known have been added for Xykon.

Should I drop Pompey, Leeky, and Yok-yok from the Villains entry? I'm thinking that characters who haven't rated a Smiley are probably minor enough to leave out.

Khantalas

2006-11-07, 04:25 PM

His hand is glowing. I took that to be "animate rope" more than escape artist.

Still, it wouldn't be surprising for him to have that, it is a bard skill after all.

Although his hand is glowing, this must imply that Elan has sorcerer levels!

Why? Cause bards can't cast silent spells, which is what Elan was doing if that were a spell. And he is known to not have wizard levels (besides, who would prepare a silent animate rope?). So it's either sorcerer, or it isn't a spell. (Of course, it might be another class if it were a spell. Just not bard.)

fangthane

2006-11-07, 04:52 PM

Um, guys...

Durkon is at LEAST level 13. Call Weather is a 7th level spell, so the lowest cleric level he could be is 13 to cast a 7th level spell.

You might wanna revise that.
He cast it off a scroll, which doesn't require he be 13th level, but only that it be on his class spell list.

Thexare Blademoon

2006-11-07, 06:16 PM

Should I drop Pompey, Leeky, and Yok-yok from the Villains entry? I'm thinking that characters who haven't rated a Smiley are probably minor enough to leave out.
I don't see much need. The work's already been done, and I'm sure some people would like to see them.

I'd put Yokyok as at least non-evil - "I would normally never stoop to travel with scoundrels such as the Linear Guild," strip 357. Additionally, he stated that he had taken an "oath to destroy" Belkar, which makes me think LN or LG.

Vargtass

2006-11-09, 08:29 AM

Although his hand is glowing, this must imply that Elan has sorcerer levels!

Why? Cause bards can't cast silent spells, which is what Elan was doing if that were a spell. And he is known to not have wizard levels (besides, who would prepare a silent animate rope?). So it's either sorcerer, or it isn't a spell. (Of course, it might be another class if it were a spell. Just not bard.)

Perhaps Giant forgot to write out Animate Rope...

If this is the only instance implying sorcerer levels for Elan, I would rely more on his own statement to Nale on being a Bard.

Brickwall

2006-11-09, 07:48 PM

I'd change Yok Yok's entry to this

Class: DEAD
Ability Scores: DEAD
etc.

Keep Pompey, though. He's been around a while now.

Soepvork

2006-11-10, 10:42 AM

As of #373, can we conclude Miko has some points in Knowledge (the planes) (considering her knowledge of demons)?

Edit: It is a cross-class skill for both her classes tho'...

Edit 2: Just noticed there's no Miko entry in this thread

Wrecan

2006-11-10, 10:57 AM

That seems reasonable

Runolfr

2006-11-10, 12:27 PM

Edit 2: Just noticed there's no Miko entry in this thread

Oversight corrected

Celisasu

2006-11-10, 12:32 PM

Is it possible that V has taken Spell Reprieve as one of his bonus feats? Evard's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion would be a variation of Evard's Black Tentacles right? Which are a conjuration(and thus barred) spell? Spell Reprieve lets you learn one spell barred to your school of magic. This would mean he has at least two ranks of Knowledge(History) as well as you need two ranks to take the feat.

TinSoldier

2006-11-10, 12:32 PM

Why are Leeky and Pompey under spoiler tags?

Runolfr

2006-11-10, 12:41 PM

Why are Leeky and Pompey under spoiler tags?

Because, as characters who weren't important enough to rate their own smilies, I have demoted them to "minor" characters who shouldn't take up a whole lot of space in the post. Putting them in spoiler tags was the easiest way to compress them without losing the actual content.

Runolfr

2006-11-13, 03:48 PM

gratuitous thread bump

Grey Knight

2006-11-13, 06:14 PM

It's strange that Nale (LE) consorts with a CE fiend... however, I can't find any devils that can change shape or use an energy-draining attack. The comment in #349 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0349.html) about
Hey, you know, these wounds actually hurt. I don't suppose that's a starmetal sword there, is it? is consistent with a succubus' DR of 10/(cold iron/good), assuming that starmetal is basically the same flavour as cold iron. It's worth noting that in #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html), she talks about flying to Azure City, even though succubi have greater teleport as a spell-like ability (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).

krossbow

2006-11-13, 06:36 PM

Starmetal deals an additional 1d6 damage to outsiders if I'm correct.

Wrecan

2006-11-13, 06:49 PM

Azure City might have wards against unauthorized teleporting. Just a thought.

xv bones

2006-11-14, 12:19 AM

:miko: Miko Miyazaki
Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2+ / Paladin 10+ (may be well above character level 12)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex 15+ (required for 2-weapon fighting)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 13+ (minimum for Stunning Fist)
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
Feats (7+): Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows).
Skills (40+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes)
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).
Items: Armor, Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions

Please also note:
Miko was able to take on the entirety of OOTS by herself on two separate occasions.
Granted, the first time was due to surprise, Durkon's surrender, and driving rains - and the second was due to a railroad plot structure, but that notwithstanding - she DID in fact take them all out.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that she's packing some fairly vicious magic weaponry.
Her position would support this, as well.

HomerHT

2006-11-14, 12:55 AM

^ I've always thought of Miko as level 15 or so.

She gets 5 attacks, so her BAB is between +11 and +15, assuming she has greater two-weapon fighting. 2 Monk levels gives her +1, 13 paladin levels gives her +13 more, making it +14 total BAB. Tack on her (probably) magical equipment, she's got at something like 17/17/12/12/7 for attacks. Seems pretty consistent with Giant's description of the fight.

Using this logic, Miko is at a minimum of level 12 (2 monk, 10 pally) and max 17 (monk 7, pally 10). Being between 15 and 17 also explains how she took 150 + 10d6 damage and was able to heal herself effectively enough without a cure spell.

All of the above is assuming Greater Two-Weapon fighting. If she doesn't have that, the numbers will be a bit different. I say it's safe to assume Greater Two-Weapon Fighting because there's always two small slashes and three big ones when she full attacks.

If I'm off on some of this, please correct me.

Ah, she also said that she'd "attack with more power" the next time she whipped some moves out on the MitD. This *might* mean she has power attack, which would put her Strength at 13+. Either that or she would two-hand her katana with a smite evil tacked in.

Oh yeah, and monks can take Stunning Fist as a feat at first level without meeting the prereqs. She doesn't necessarily have 13+ Wis, but it's likely because she seems to use more than Lay on Hands to heal.

xv bones

2006-11-14, 10:49 AM

Runolfr

2006-11-14, 12:45 PM

It's worth noting that in #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html), she talks about flying to Azure City, even though succubi have greater teleport as a spell-like ability (self plus 50 pounds of objects only).

She has to get Pompey to Azure City, as well. She can't teleport with him, even if she does have that ability.

krossbow

2006-11-14, 01:03 PM

No, she said she'd fly even before nale told her to take pompei;

and besides, she flat out refused that when he told her to.

Runolfr

2006-11-14, 02:46 PM

Point seen. Presumably Sabine cannot just teleport to Azure City. Either she lacks the ability, or the city is protected. Of course, the Order just teleported back to Azure City, so the teleportation screen theory is dubious.

Maybe Sabine is just a half-fiend?

Telonius

2006-11-14, 03:00 PM

Ugh, we might need some revision on Xykon's entry. Since it's a personally researched spell, Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage's duration means nothing. (Plus, he could have just been lying). It's probably a lower-level spell than a regular Forcecage, too. :smallconfused:

Erathia

2006-11-14, 03:02 PM

It's possible that having a city protected by an elite cadre of Paladins might have some sort of system set up to detect a Fiendish teleport. Plus is there any reason why she might not be taking Leeky?

Alfryd

2006-11-14, 03:30 PM

Roy:
Con ~10 (no evidence, and consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
He comments on 'having a lot of hit points,' and any Fighter walking into melee with dex AND con below 12 sure as hell doesn't have int/wis 14+.

Belkar:
Wis 10
I don't care what the mechanics say, all behaviour indicates his wis is pathetic.

Durkon:
Str ?12 (“would make a good warrior”)
If we're taking characters' opinions as evidence, let's up that to 14.

Con ?16 (dwarf)
Dwarves get a +2 bonus to con. The best guarantee that gives you is a score of 5.
You're probably right, but not for the reasons given.

Haley:
Con ?14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight)
I fail to see how. Most of the time she was matched by Windstriker.

Redcloak:
Wis ~18 (no evidence)
Given use of several high-level cleric spells, I would contest this.

Miko:
Str 10
Probably higher to do real damage during her OotS fracas, particularly given her reliance on melee combat.

Int ~10 (no evidence)
You're kidding me.

Cha 14+
Probably Min 16, she deals upwards of 30 damage with Smite Evil and were she a level 16 paladin, she'd get 6 attacks.

She also took one hell of a brutal hit, flew an indeterminate distance and hit the ground hard enough to crack it, THEN had her horse fall on her head and GOT UP, and STILL had enough strength left to drink a pile of health potions.
I think that was mainly intended for humour.

Wrecan

2006-11-14, 03:38 PM

He comments on 'having a lot of hit points,'
He has a ten-sided hit die. That's a lot of hit points. His comment isn't evidence of his Con.

and any Fighter walking into melee with dex AND con below 12 sure as hell doesn't have int/wis 14+.Apparently, his dad thought he was a good candidate for wizard's school. So Roy doesn't seem to be a min/maxer.

I don't care what the mechanics sayBut I do.

If we're taking characters' opinions as evidence, let's up that to 14.Where does a character opine about Durkon's Strength?

Dwarves get a +2 bonus to con. The best guarantee that gives you is a score of 5.10, if it's point buy, which is the presumption. However, since Durkon portrays himself as a by-the-book dwarf, it would be surprising if he had average Con.

I fail to see how. Most of the time she was matched by Windstriker.Based on Rich's description of the fight, the average damage Haley would have received would exceed the average hp Haley would possess without a Con bonus. Either Haley got very lucky on the damage rolls, Haley got lucky on her hp rolls, or Haley has a Con bonus. Until I see more evidence, I'm going with the third.

Morty

2006-11-14, 03:42 PM

I don't care what the mechanics say, all behaviour indicates his wis is pathetic.
Wrong. His behaviour has nothing to do with his stats. He's doing what he's doing because he's Chaotic Evil- some actions are chaotic, some evil, most of them both.

You're kidding me.
There's no mechanical evidence.

Runolfr

2006-11-14, 03:42 PM

Some updates to Miko based on suggestions

Alfryd

2006-11-14, 04:04 PM

There's no mechanical evidence.
Apparently, that's not the only kind admitted.

Wrong. His behaviour has nothing to do with his stats. He's doing what he's doing because he's Chaotic Evil- some actions are chaotic, some evil, most of them both.
Lighting tents on fire and giving away your entire party's position when there is no conceivable advantage to doing so is Unwise. Putting no ranks whatsoever in Spot or Survival when you're hired to be a tracker is Unwise. I could go on, but I don't have all night.
This has nothing to do with being Chaotic or Evil, and being CG, I resent the implication it might.

Runolfr

2006-11-14, 04:09 PM

Perhaps a stat of "Wis 10-" (ten minus) would be appropriate for Belkar. He technically requires a 10, but in practice acts as though he has less, so the Owl's Wisdom incident (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) may have been a case of "rules changed because it was funny".

Alfryd

2006-11-14, 04:13 PM

Apparently, his dad thought he was a good candidate for wizard's school. So Roy doesn't seem to be a min/maxer.
Hid dad thought he should go to Wizard's school. Nowhere do we see a rational assessment of his aptitude for the class aside from respectable int, which, essentially, is most of what you need.

But I do.
But you don't care about everything else the character does, and I think that weighs in.

the average damage Haley would have received would exceed the average hp Haley would possess without a Con bonus.
Very well.

Where does a character opine about Durkon's Strength?
You just quoted Roy as saying he'd make a good warrior. Str 12 is a mediocre warrior.

Some updates to Miko based on suggestions
Thank you, though I still reckon cha is a little low. Then again, if you weigh in personality... but then there's her body... eh.

Perhaps a stat of "Wis 10-" (ten minus)would be appropriate for Belkar. He technically requires a 10, but in practice acts as though he has less, so the Owl's Wisdom incident may have been a case of "rules changed because it was funny".
I would guess so.

xv bones

2006-11-14, 04:36 PM

I think that was mainly intended for humour.

Brother, that was entirely intended for humor.
But this thread seems dead-set on taking everything totally seriously.
I was just trying to get into the spirit of things.

Devils_Advocate

2006-11-14, 04:55 PM

Maybe Sabine doesn't have a sufficiently reliable description of Azure City to allow her to teleport there.

Wrecan

2006-11-14, 05:00 PM

Hid dad thought he should go to Wizard's school. Nowhere do we see a rational assessment of his aptitude for the class aside from respectable int, which, essentially, is most of what you need.
So you don't think 14 Int is a respectable Int for a wizard, but you do think 14 Str is a respectable Str for fighter?

But you don't care about everything else the character does, and I think that weighs in.
And I don't. So make your own post of OOTS stats and update it as new info comes out. My post may be first on the thread, but it is in no way "official".

You just quoted Roy as saying he'd make a good warrior. Str 12 is a mediocre warrior.
Alone it is, but Durkon has a cleric's BAB and proficiency in the warhammer. He'd make a "decent" warrior. He might be a 14 Strength or more. I just don't see it quite yet. (Which is why a use the "greater than or equal" symbol.)

Wrecan

2006-11-14, 05:00 PM

But this thread seems dead-set on taking everything totally seriously.Exactly. In this thread, we take things seriously because the absurdity of doing so is fun. I don't take things this seriously in any other thread about OOTS.

rwald

2006-11-14, 06:16 PM

Also, it should be noted that Wrecan and Kish have had a long-standing...disagreement...as to Belkar's Wis, and it's somewhat pointless to restart that debate unless there's actually new evidence. Personally, I agree with Wrecan, but that's because I tend to lean more towards min-maxing and rules lawyering than in-depth roleplay.

ZeroK

2006-11-14, 06:39 PM

I didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been mentioned already, but there is proof that Belkar is Chaotic: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0230.html.

Celisasu

2006-11-15, 05:08 AM

Perhaps Sabine lacks a detailed description or precise map to Azure City and that's why she has to fly instead of teleport?

Alfryd

2006-11-15, 08:22 AM

So you don't think 14 Int is a respectable Int for a wizard, but you do think 14 Str is a respectable Str for fighter?
Where did I say 14 int wasn't acceptable for a wizard (at least multiclassing?) I believe your implication was that Roy's Dad believed him suitable for Wizard's school, thereby implying he must have an archetypal wizard's character build, thereby implying he lacks focus in physical attributes. Which I don't think holds up.

So make your own post of OOTS stats and update it as new info comes out.
Perhaps you might include a disclaimer to that effect.

Durkon has a cleric's BAB and proficiency in the warhammer. He'd make a "decent" warrior.
Then he might just as easily have str 10 or 8, for all we know, unless you have mechanical evidence to the contrary, in which case that is what you should be quoting evidence-wise. At present, you're saying:

'Good warrior' == str 12+.
No mention of level or weapon proficiency.

But this thread seems dead-set on taking everything totally seriously.
I was just trying to get into the spirit of things.
My mistake.

Wrecan

2006-11-15, 08:41 AM

Where did I say 14 int wasn't acceptable for a wizard (at least multiclassing?) I believe your implication was that Roy's Dad believed him suitable for Wizard's school, thereby implying he must have an archetypal wizard's character build, thereby implying he lacks focus in physical attributes.
No, only that he would have an above average Intelligence. I made no statement about his physical attributes.

Perhaps you might include a disclaimer to that effect.
I don't generally post self-evident disclaimers. Did you really think my post has some sort of "official" capacity?

'Good warrior' == str 12+.
No mention of level or weapon proficiency.
I can only fit so much in the parenthetical explanations after each ability. So I use a shorthand.

Morty

2006-11-15, 10:00 AM

Apparently, that's not the only kind admitted.

Lighting tents on fire and giving away your entire party's position when there is no conceivable advantage to doing so is Unwise. Putting no ranks whatsoever in Spot or Survival when you're hired to be a tracker is Unwise. I could go on, but I don't have all night.
This has nothing to do with being Chaotic or Evil, and being CG, I resent the implication it might.

Maybe, but this thread is about stats, and there IS proof for Belkar to have 10 wisdom- the "Owl's Wisdom incident", while your arguments can be argued. Behaviour is not based on stats, but on alignment and personality. Belkar is setting tents to fire because he's CE psychopath with deep-seated emotional problems, not because being wise or not wise. The main point is, that stats don't have much to do with behaviour.

mikeejimbo

2006-11-15, 10:13 AM

So, do lemmings have a wisdom of 10, or was V using hyperbole?

(I like hyperbole, I use it a million times a day)

xv bones

2006-11-15, 10:34 AM

Exactly. In this thread, we take things seriously because the absurdity of doing so is fun. I don't take things this seriously in any other thread about OOTS.

Precisely!
Miko took a horse to the back of the head, and I'm using that as concrete proof that she has either brutal armor or brutal HP.

Deuce

2006-11-15, 11:07 AM

So, do lemmings have a wisdom of 10, or was V using hyperbole?

(I like hyperbole, I use it a million times a day)

Well, actually :smallamused: Looking over the SRD, I see that pretty much every entry in the "Animals" section has a double-digit WIS score (usually 10-14), so yes Lemming-level wisdom would indeed be around 10.

xv bones

2006-11-15, 11:10 AM

Well, actually :smallamused: Looking over the SRD, I see that pretty much every entry in the "Animals" section has a double-digit WIS score (usually 10-14), so yes Lemming-level wisdom would indeed be around 10.

Wisdom was originally described to me by my very first DM like a billion years ago thusly:

"Intelligence tells you there's an arrow coming at your head.
Wisdom tells you to duck."

As such, I'd have to assume lemmings to be a "special case."
The evolutionary short bus, if you will.

Deuce

2006-11-15, 11:25 AM

Wisdom was originally described to me by my very first DM like a billion years ago thusly:

"Intelligence tells you there's an arrow coming at your head.
Wisdom tells you to duck."

As such, I'd have to assume lemmings to be a "special case."
The evolutionary short bus, if you will.

The "jumping off a cliff" story. A common, but alas not-so-true myth about Lemmings. A quick sum-up can be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming
Basicly, Lemmings are near-sighted, not suicidal fools. (Oh and that entry provides further proof that Disney is an evil empire :smallwink: ). Perhaps V is judging Belkar's WIS in much the same way people judge the Lemming?

krossbow

2006-11-15, 11:28 AM

Bah, Lemmings running off a cliff for no reason is a myth. They only do that if they are being chased and have no other escape route (like a fugitive jumping because its the only possible chance he has).

This myth has been propogated because in a documentary on Lemmings that they did, Disney rushed a group of them to frighten them off of a cliff while they filmed it, thus causing this "Natural" Phenomenon
________
Chrysler falcon (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Falcon)

xv bones

2006-11-15, 11:32 AM

No no, I'm fully aware of what Disney did as well as the origins of the Lemmings Off The Cliff story.

Then again, in real life, woman cannot survive having a horse land on her head.

I should have specified that in my head is the Chaos Lemming running right past V and towards the cliff.

Alfryd

2006-11-15, 12:08 PM

Behaviour is not based on stats, but on alignment and personality.
Only if your role-playing is defective. An int 3 character habitually reciting shakespeare is as out-of-place as a cha 18 character habitually using cheesy pickup lines. It's not as if Rich has adhered fanatically to rules-related accuracy either on the forums or in the strip. Whence cometh the Lead sheet of Wanging, for instance, or Miko's ability to exit the stratosphere with nary a scratch, or Roy's capacity for playing ping-pong with Lich Noggins?

Belkar is setting tents to fire because he's CE psychopath with deep-seated emotional problems...
You'll have to explain that to me in considerably more detail, because on the face of it, what you said makes no sense whatsoever.
There's nothing about being chaotic, evil, a psychopath, or having emotional angst that translates to chronic daily irrationality. Poor wisdom does.
Otherwise you might as well say "he has a strongly-expressed 'desire to burn tents' gene."

Wrecan

2006-11-15, 12:23 PM

Precisely!
Miko took a horse to the back of the head, and I'm using that as concrete proof that she has either brutal armor or brutal HP.
Miko was on the first floor of the watchtower... but for the fact that Windstriker fell from a height that is clearly over Miko's reach, we could say she only fell 5'. So let's assume Windstriker fell on her from 10'

A falling object causes 2d6 damage for every 200 lbs. of weight. A warhorse weights about 1500 pounds, so that's 14d6 damage (49 hp damage). Add 1d6 for Miko's own fall (assuming, as it appears, she couldn't use her monk abilities to slow her fall). It takes 135 hp to crash through a 1' wall. We don't know how thick the wall is, but the image of the broken wall at the last panel of 374 makes it look awfully thin. A 1" wall would only require 40 hp damage. That's an average of 92 hp damage. Easily handled by a 15th level paladin of average Constitution (and we can assume she had healed herself up from her battle with Redcloak before breaking out of the forcecage). (In contrast, Windstriker would have only taken an average of 43 hp damage.)

The event has no bearing on her armor, as armor doesn't blunt falling damage.

xv bones

2006-11-15, 12:50 PM

Miko was on the first floor of the watchtower... but for the fact that Windstriker fell from a height that is clearly over Miko's reach, we could say she only fell 5'. So let's assume Windstriker fell on her from 10'

A falling object causes 2d6 damage for every 200 lbs. of weight. A warhorse weights about 1500 pounds, so that's 14d6 damage (49 hp damage). Add 1d6 for Miko's own fall (assuming, as it appears, she couldn't use her monk abilities to slow her fall). It takes 135 hp to crash through a 1' wall. We don't know how thick the wall is, but the image of the broken wall at the last panel of 374 makes it look awfully thin. A 1" wall would only require 40 hp damage. That's an average of 92 hp damage. Easily handled by a 15th level paladin of average Constitution (and we can assume she had healed herself up from her battle with Redcloak before breaking out of the forcecage). (In contrast, Windstriker would have only taken an average of 43 hp damage.)

The event has no bearing on her armor, as armor doesn't blunt falling damage.

Superb geekery, but it all hinges on a fall of 10 feet.

Look carefully at the comic itself:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

The direction of Miko's trajectory is clearly defined - you can see her, tiny, in the distance, but you cannot see the watchtower.
It's impossible to tell how far she's been flung, but judging from visible evidence in those three panels we can surmise three things:
1) She has been thrown a considerable distance
2) She was not simply pushed through a wall and then straight down - she went UP.
3) However far and however high she flew, her velocity was enough that she shattered what appears to be a stone floor with her head.

Please note, Miko has never worn any sort of protective headgear - she has just shattered stone with her HEAD following a single strike that has sent her an indeterminate distance and an indeterminate height - (though visual evidence seems to suggest "damn far" and "damn high") - and was able to GET UP.

Moreover, she hasn't even been knocked for a loop.
Her skull is completely intact, she does NOT seem to have suffered any form of concussion - she;s not even BLEEDING.

Next, her horse, weighing approximately 1500 pounds, flung the same distance and, it would go to figure, the same height, lands on the back of her head.

All this blunt falling trauma is centered on her skull.

And she still gets up.

TinSoldier

2006-11-15, 12:54 PM

xv bones

2006-11-15, 01:01 PM

Umm, cartoon? I don't have a problem with trying to figure out rules questions from stuff in the strip, but Miko being launched a great distance through a stone wall, leaving Miko- and Windstriker-shaped holes in said wall, and having her horse fall on her head was cartoony.

I don't think you can even attempt to explain that via the game rules.

Once again, the total purpose of this thread is to attempt to take seriously that which was never meant to be.

It's a really funny scene, comedic and cartoonish, and Mr. Burlew has gone out of his way to not even denote the character's alignments, much less levels.

But so long as this thread is trying to determine character sheets of fictional characters in a story exploding with glorious artistic liscence, I might as well play devil's advocate and make a strong arguement that Miko's skull is made of solid steel.

TinSoldier

2006-11-15, 01:04 PM

Once again, the total purpose of this thread is to attempt to take seriously that which was never meant to be.I understand that. Completely.

There are a lot of things in the comic that can be taken seriously. I just don't think this is one of them.

But so long as this thread is trying to determine character sheets of fictional characters in a story exploding with glorious artistic liscence, I might as well play devil's advocate and make a strong arguement that Miko's skull is made of solid steel.Or rock :smalltongue: !

xv bones

2006-11-15, 01:06 PM

I understand that. Completely.

There are a lot of things in the comic that can be taken seriously. I just don't think this is one of them.

If that was your skull flung several hundred feet up and half a mile out impacting against solid rock, followed by a horse, you'd take it pretty seriously, too.

I'm just saying, so long as you're building the character sheets, you may want to include "Feat: Immune to Called Shot - Head"

Runolfr

2006-11-15, 01:14 PM

I'm just saying, so long as you're building the character sheets, you may want to include "Feat: Immune to Called Shot - Head"

I thought there was not such thing as a "called shot", anyway.

I guess you might use it to argue that Miko's armor has some degree of fortification. Or that she's got a featherfall effect of some kind going for her (which wasn't good for the entire distance she fell).

xv bones

2006-11-15, 01:17 PM

I thought there was not such thing as a "called shot", anyway.

I guess you might use it to argue that Miko's armor has some degree of fortification. Or that she's got a featherfall effect of some kind going for her (which wasn't good for the entire distance she fell).

Okay then; "Feat: Granite Headbones"

And once again, seriously, look at the apparently stone ground where she fell.

It's not meteorite impact, but that's a pretty impressive li'l crater.

Possibly, the force of her convictions have led her to having brainmeats of iron?

Wrecan

2006-11-15, 01:48 PM

Since D&D doesn't have rules for blows to the head, it doesn't matter where Miko landed. The damage is the same.
Since D&D doesn't care what material you land on (unless it's water), it doesn't matter if she landed on stone or soft earth.
Since, in D&D, falling damage depend on how far someone travelled horizontally or the velocity at which it was traveling, it doesn't matter how far from the tower she landed (except that it prevents her from using her monk slow fall ability)
We know Miko's fight with Redcloak -- wherein she was forcecaged -- occurred on the first floor of the tower. All we know is that she fell from a height larger than her vertical reach (approximately the top of the frame). Thus, we cannot assume a height of less than 10' and anything larger is speculative.Is it absurd? Yes. But that's one reason OOTS is so funny. It exposes the absurdities of D&D rules.

I'm getting the idea that a lot of people aren't understanding the point of this thread. It's Class and Level Geekery, not Physics and Physiology Geekery.

xv bones

2006-11-15, 01:51 PM

Since D&D doesn't have rules for blows to the head, it doesn't matter where Miko landed. The damage is the same.
Since D&D doesn't care what material you land on (unless it's water), it doesn't matter if she landed on stone or soft earth.
Since, in D&D, falling damage depend on how far someone travelled horizontally or the velocity at which it was traveling, it doesn't matter how far from the tower she landed (except that it prevents her from using her monk slow fall ability)
We know Miko's fight with Redcloak -- wherein she was forcecaged -- occurred on the first floor of the tower. All we know is that she fell from a height larger than her vertical reach (approximately the top of the frame). Thus, we cannot assume a height of less than 10' and anything larger is speculative.Is it absurd? Yes. But that's one reason OOTS is so funny. It exposes the absurdities of D&D rules.

This post honestly makes that strip four hundred times funnier.

xv bones

2006-11-15, 01:54 PM

[LIST]
I'm getting the idea that a lot of people aren't understanding the point of this thread. It's Class and Level Geekery, not Physics and Physiology Geekery.

Aw.
I'm sorry, I always play for the stories, rather than the laws that bind the universes the stories exist in.

In my own defense, I honestly had no idea D&D has no rules allowing for Massive Head Trauma Following Cataclysmic Paladin-Tossing Incident.

Or Surprise Attack: Horse To The Cranium.

Wrecan

2006-11-15, 02:42 PM

I'm sorry, I always play for the stories, rather than the laws that bind the universes the stories exist in.
So do I. But this thread is not about that.

In my own defense, I honestly had no idea D&D has no rules allowing for Massive Head Trauma Following Cataclysmic Paladin-Tossing Incident.
And now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

:elan: "Go Joe!"

xv bones

2006-11-15, 02:48 PM

So do I. But this thread is not about that.

And now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

:elan: "Go Joe!"

too goddamned bad.

i'd pay cash money for a "surprise attack: horse to the forehead" skill.

Morty

2006-11-15, 02:56 PM

Only if your role-playing is defective. An int 3 character habitually reciting shakespeare is as out-of-place as a cha 18 character habitually using cheesy pickup lines. It's not as if Rich has adhered fanatically to rules-related accuracy either on the forums or in the strip. Whence cometh the Lead sheet of Wanging, for instance, or Miko's ability to exit the stratosphere with nary a scratch, or Roy's capacity for playing ping-pong with Lich Noggins?

You'll have to explain that to me in considerably more detail, because on the face of it, what you said makes no sense whatsoever.
There's nothing about being chaotic, evil, a psychopath, or having emotional angst that translates to chronic daily irrationality. Poor wisdom does.
Otherwise you might as well say "he has a strongly-expressed 'desire to burn tents' gene."

Correction: stats determine what character can do, not what he's doing. 18 CHA character can use cheesy Black Mage-style pickup lines if he wants to. It's just that they'll work better that if he had 8 CHA, and he knows that it won't work.
Does not make sense? Well, what I tried to say was, that burning tent wasn't result of low WIS, but his decision to do so. And burning tents or doing other stupid things has a lot to do with personality. He's chaotic and basically not very sane sometimes, and he likes to kill/destroy things so he's doing stupid things like burning tents with no reason or attacking teammates. Sure, that is proof of no Wisdom above 10-11. But I wouldn't place his Wisdom below 9 or 8- low, but not abysmal. Behaviour isn't good start for determining ability scores. Yes, there's no proof for Belkar having 10 Wisdom except of that thing with Owl's Wisdom, but there's no proof for him having Wisdom below 7- at least for me.

Snake-Aes

2006-11-15, 03:01 PM

As far as we might go on this smack-a-miko game with mitd, I wouldn't agree into taking any conclusions into her character sheet, it was obviously too absurd :p

Telonius

2006-11-15, 03:33 PM

Hmm. Well, this could also be explained by some of her actions. Miko's Paladin stick - you know, the one that every paladin comes with - is quite possibly adamantine by now. And it's also lodged so far up, that it's reached up to, and fused with, her skull (similar to Wolverine in that regard). So quite a bit of DR from falling damage could be gotten by that.

Runolfr

2006-11-15, 05:09 PM

Miko's Paladin stick - you know, the one that every paladin comes with - is quite possibly adamantine by now.

It is SOOOOO tempting to add that to her "Items" entry.

xv bones

2006-11-15, 05:10 PM

lord_khaine

2006-11-16, 04:26 PM

ahh i can just imagine it, next time Miko goes up against Xylon she takes him out with a headbutt attack :P

xv bones

2006-11-16, 04:37 PM

Correction: stats determine what character can do, not what he's doing. 18 CHA character can use cheesy Black Mage-style pickup lines if he wants to. It's just that they'll work better that if he had 8 CHA, and he knows that it won't work.

Exactly.

A character with a WIS of 18 would know instantly that setting fire to tents when the party was trying to sneak in would be heavily counter-productive.

The player, however, could choose to ignore this and do it anyway, knowing full well what the consequences would be.

Chaotic, evil, psychopathic nature, all of that, in this case, WOULD greatly affect the character's behavior without necesarily having a bearing on his WIS score.

Belkar is a homicidally psychotic kill-crazy maniac lunatic whackjob crazypants halfling.
He could have set the fires, knowing the end result, because he really wanted to stab more people.

Alfryd

2006-11-18, 06:07 PM

Correction: stats determine what character can do, not what he's doing.
Yes, but the odds that a str 18 character will never deal more than 1 point of damage above average are so low, it's not worth considering. Likewise, the odds that an int 18 character will persistently function like a retard are so low, it's not worth considering. Occasional exceptions will crop up.

And burning tents or doing other stupid things has a lot to do with personality.
Yes, but you'd have to come up with a very convoluted description of his personality to account for all his actions without low wisdom. Occam's razor.

Yes, there's no proof for Belkar having 10 Wisdom except of that thing with Owl's Wisdom, but there's no proof for him having Wisdom below 7- at least for me.
Hell, I'd be happy enough with wis 7 in the description.

The player, however, could choose to ignore this and do it anyway, knowing full well what the consequences would be.
This ways madness lies. As Roy pointed out, had Belkar both foresight and desire to do so, he could have just slit the party's throats and absconded with their precious, precious booty on many occasions. Either he lacks the desire to screw the party over, or lacks the wisdom to weight pros and cons, or both. The scenario doesn't add up.

Bronzeevil

2006-11-18, 09:22 PM

ahh i can just imagine it, next time Miko goes up against Xylon she takes him out with a headbutt attack :P
They would have to be playing soccer, though.

dragoncmd

2006-11-19, 02:37 AM

Yokyok is probably lawful neutral, considering his statement about not caring about his companions, just wanting justice to be done. I suspect that Belkar is actually chaotic neutral, not evil.

Morty

2006-11-19, 04:50 AM

This ways madness lies. As Roy pointed out, had Belkar both foresight and desire to do so, he could have just slit the party's throats and absconded with their precious, precious booty on many occasions. Either he lacks the desire to screw the party over, or lacks the wisdom to weight pros and cons, or both. The scenario doesn't add up.
Weighing pros and cons is rather the thing of intelligence, not wisdom.

Yes, but the odds that a str 18 character will never deal more than 1 point of damage above average are so low, it's not worth considering. Likewise, the odds that an int 18 character will persistently function like a retard are so low, it's not worth considering. Occasional exceptions will crop up.
18 int character can behave like a complete idot if he wants to. He just doesn't have to and probably won't. If we see someone doing something requiring high INT, we're sure he has high INT. If we see someone acting like complete idiot, we can assume that he has low INT. That also depends what we call 'idiotic behaviour'. One can have high INT, but still be considered by other people as complete moron.

Yes, but you'd have to come up with a very convoluted description of his personality to account for all his actions without low wisdom.
Not 'low wisdom' but 'not high wisdom'. That's a difference.

I suspect that Belkar is actually chaotic neutral, not evil.
You've got to be kidding.

Sir_Norbert

2006-11-19, 05:45 AM

You've got to be kidding.
Indeed. This has been done to death now. Everyone knows Belkar is netural good!

:kidding:

Runolfr

2006-11-20, 11:37 AM

I suspect that Belkar is actually chaotic neutral, not evil.

Oh, no... not again. :smallmad:

HomerHT

2006-11-20, 10:26 PM

I suspect that Belkar is actually chaotic neutral, not evil.

The Giant himself said Belkar is evil.

GAZ

2006-11-21, 01:18 AM

Kish

2006-11-21, 03:42 AM

Do you guys honestly not know when you're being wound up?
There cannot possibly be anybody left on this board who truely believes that Belkar is not Chaotic Evil

...and has a significantly lower than average wisdom score.
I'm not certain whether you're supporting my viewpoint (and denying Wrecan's existence) or denying my existence, so can you rephrase and clarify? :smalltongue: Are you saying there is no one on the board who believes Belkar's Wisdom is low, or that there is no one on the board who doesn't believe Belkar's Wisdom is low?

Runolfr

2006-11-21, 09:14 AM

By the way, Kish, some of your links were broken by the Board switchover, if you get the urge to revisit your page-1 post.

Zeb The Troll

2006-11-21, 10:32 AM

:miko: Miko Miyazaki
Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2+ / Paladin 10+ (may be well above character level 12)
Attributes:
Str 12+ (no clear evidence, but melee damage output is high)
Dex 15+ (required for Greater 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 12+ (not yet seen to cast spells, but believed to have a positive modifier)
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)

She gets 5 attacks, so her BAB is between +11 and +15, assuming she has greater two-weapon fighting.

<snip>

All of the above is assuming Greater Two-Weapon fighting. If she doesn't have that, the numbers will be a bit different. I say it's safe to assume Greater Two-Weapon Fighting because there's always two small slashes and three big ones when she full attacks.

If I'm off on some of this, please correct me.
Two things here.

1. Miko has Improved Two Weapon Fighting, not Greater Two Weapon Fighting. Greater Two Weapon Fighting grants 3 off-hand attacks per round and requires a BAB of +11. I think we can all agree that she has a BAB of +11 to +15 for the base 3 attacks per round. But since she's only getting 5 attacks per round and not 6, she only has I-TWF and her BAB is less than +16.

2. On that note, the Dex requirement for I-TWF is 17, not 15. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTwoWeaponFighting)

Maybe Sabine doesn't have a sufficiently reliable description of Azure City to allow her to teleport there.
IF (and I stress IF) Sabine is a succubus and has Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) at will, she need not know anything about her destination. I personally think she's a half-fiend or some other homebrew baddie.

Runolfr

2006-11-21, 12:15 PM

Adjustments applied to Miko

Axorcist

2006-11-21, 12:48 PM

On the list of significant items for Belkar, a lead sheet needs to be added. Lead! Lead!

Wrecan

2006-11-21, 12:58 PM

Wow, that was a stupid omission on my part! Fixed.

Iranon

2006-11-23, 11:09 AM

Actually, I don't see Belkars propensity to set things on fire as a sign of low wisdom. It has been shown time and again that he's right at home in chaotic, muddled situations and doesn't have the patience for a more methodical approach.
Considering others might panic or at least be severely distracted gives him a considerable advantage, so it sounds like a valid plan.

lord_khaine

2006-11-23, 03:30 PM

considdering how it turns out i take it as yet another sign of his low wisdom

Renegade Paladin

2006-11-23, 05:22 PM

Correction: stats determine what character can do, not what he's doing. 18 CHA character can use cheesy Black Mage-style pickup lines if he wants to. It's just that they'll work better that if he had 8 CHA, and he knows that it won't work.
Does not make sense? Well, what I tried to say was, that burning tent wasn't result of low WIS, but his decision to do so. And burning tents or doing other stupid things has a lot to do with personality. He's chaotic and basically not very sane sometimes, and he likes to kill/destroy things so he's doing stupid things like burning tents with no reason or attacking teammates. Sure, that is proof of no Wisdom above 10-11. But I wouldn't place his Wisdom below 9 or 8- low, but not abysmal. Behaviour isn't good start for determining ability scores. Yes, there's no proof for Belkar having 10 Wisdom except of that thing with Owl's Wisdom, but there's no proof for him having Wisdom below 7- at least for me.
Just to note, D&D models insanity through massive penalties to the Wisdom score. :smallamused:

Devils_Advocate

2006-11-26, 12:13 AM

IF (and I stress IF) Sabine is a succubus and has Greater Teleport (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportGreater.htm) at will, she need not know anything about her destination. I personally think she's a half-fiend or some other homebrew baddie.
Um, the spell description you linked to says "you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting."

Daracaex

2006-11-26, 04:08 PM

keybounce

2006-11-26, 05:00 PM

And since we're at it, we might want to have a master list for some other recurring characters, like the Linear Guild. *Here's a quick start on their stats...

:thog: Thog
Int ~8 (no evidence, Half-Orc Barbarian)

After that "Not-Nale" speach, shouldn't that be "3-5"? No way an 8 would speak like that.

Norenche

2006-11-26, 05:04 PM

It0's more possible that Thog is 3-5 int and something like that in Wisdom (telling all Nale's plan to an officer is not wise)

Amon Star

2006-11-26, 06:35 PM

This may have been pointed out already, but just in case it hasn't, I noticed in the "up a level, down a level" comic, Haley says "Oooh That Goblin Cleric was worth 1,000 exp." This was sufficient to make the party advance a level. I'm not sure if she meant the Goblin was worth 6,000 exp. and she got 1,000 when it was divied up, or if it was worth a flat 1,000, but I'm sure if you look at the exp. for single monster CR table in the DMG, what level a spell is Unholy Blight (the goblin cleric used it ona the party), what the save would have to be for all the party members to fail it (besides Belkar), and the fact that Varsuvius gains a new spell level, all this will give you a very solid foundation of where their level starts.

Because I'm sad...

Unholy Blight is a Evil Domain only spell. So for the goblin cleric to have cast it twice, he must have been at least 9th. Or, he could have cast one or both from an item. If so, he could be any level, so let's ignore that option.

If the goblin cleric was worth 6000 exp total, then the party would have been 5th at the time. Not very likely. So, let's go with 1000 exp total. That'll make the OOTS 12th or 13th at the time. Hmmm.

Another option is that the goblin cleric had a Prestige Class that let him memorise Domain Spells as normal spell. That'll make him 7th, as a minimum. If that's the case, he'll be to weak to be worth 6000 exp total, even if the party is 1st, but, would be worth 1000 exp total if the OOTS was 10th.

If I may be say bold, WE HAVE A WINNER! :biggrin:

Daracaex

2006-11-26, 08:30 PM

Because I'm sad...

Unholy Blight is a Evil Domain only spell. So for the goblin cleric to have cast it twice, he must have been at least 9th. Or, he could have cast one or both from an item. If so, he could be any level, so let's ignore that option.

If the goblin cleric was worth 6000 exp total, then the party would have been 5th at the time. Not very likely. So, let's go with 1000 exp total. That'll make the OOTS 12th or 13th at the time. Hmmm.

Another option is that the goblin cleric had a Prestige Class that let him memorise Domain Spells as normal spell. That'll make him 7th, as a minimum. If that's the case, he'll be to weak to be worth 6000 exp total, even if the party is 1st, but, would be worth 1000 exp total if the OOTS was 10th.

If I may be say bold, WE HAVE A WINNER! :biggrin:
Which would make them Lv. 11 after defeating the goblin, because Varsuvius would gain access to 6th level spells then. Wait, you mean I actually pointed out something you guys hadn't spotted yet?

Zeb The Troll

2006-11-26, 08:53 PM

Um, the spell description you linked to says "you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting."
It may be a bit of a stretch, but in #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) she declares that she's familiar with Azure City.

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 08:16 AM

It may be a bit of a stretch, but in #365 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) she declares that she's familiar with Azure City.

Possible, but as you said, it's a stretch. Here's another possibility. Because of the nature of her mission, maybe she has had her Greater Teleport replaced with a Plane Shift by the Archfiends.

Also, regarding her Alignment, we've seen no evidence that The Blood War has any influence on the OOTS world. Therefore, Tanari & Baatezu aren't at war, so there will be no problem with a Chaotic Demon working with a Lawful mortal, even if he has Hellish tendancies/affiliation.

Runolfr

2006-11-27, 11:17 AM

Um, the spell description you linked to says "you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting."

I believe Sabine also mentions having been to Azure City before, so that's not an issue.

Wrecan

2006-11-27, 12:24 PM

382 gives us confirmation that OOTS is all of a level divisible by 4 and that Elan is the same level as the rest of the group.

Haley's Intellect points out to Haley's Self-Loathing that Elan may have placed a new ability point in Intelligence when they went up a level. One gets a new ability point at levels divisible by 4. We had already estimated that the rest of OOTS was on or about 12th level. This places Elan right in that camp. (I doubt he's four levels lower or higher than the rest of the party.)

Runolfr

2006-11-27, 02:49 PM

Based on this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0133.html), would anyone else consider "Improved Grab" to be a likely feat for Belkar?

Wrecan

2006-11-27, 02:56 PM

Well, he didn't actually use the monringstar he took from Kuurkk. So it may only be a Disarm. But since Kuurkk the Anemic was clearly flatfooted, and couldn't get an AoO off, that's not evidence of any special Feat.

Amon Star

2006-11-27, 03:05 PM

I think Runolfr was refering to the attack on Hak-Tonog the Moderately Incontinent.

Wrecan

2006-11-27, 05:33 PM

Hmmm... well, Hak-Tonog's swing-and-a-miss could represent a failed AoO from Belkar's grapple attempt (which means no Improved Grapple). Of course, in order to get someone to fall on another's weapon, I would assume you would have to:

Initiate grapple (provoking AoO, but inflicting unarmed damage)
Move the guy into the square occupied by the weapon (which requires a standard action)
Pin the guy
Attack them with weapon

That's four separate attack actions. A Ranger 11 Barbarian 1 gets only three attacks a round with the full attack option. So Belkar could only accomplish this in two rounds. So clealry we're missing some action of Hak-Tonog (likely ineffectual) during the grapple.

I don't know. It could be Improved Grapple, although it seems really out of character for him to be using halfling fists o' fury. It could simply be high-level Belkar overwhelming a low-level Barbarian.

Amon Star

2006-11-28, 09:58 AM

True, that's probably it. Hak-Tonag didn't look surprised so probably did ineffectually try to fight back. Also, :belkar: hasn't initiated grapples before, so it's probably not a standard tactic for him, therefore not something he would've spend a feat on.

On a similar note, anyone think this is proof that :nale: has Improved Disarm?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0361.html

Wrecan

2006-11-28, 11:06 AM

Ooh! Nice catch! I didn't even notice the "disarm!" ping in that comic.

Runolfr

2006-11-28, 11:40 AM

Of course, the CPPD are low-level NPC Warriors, so Nale wouldn't really need Improved Disarm for that action, either, and again, it's the only time we've seen Nale attempt a disarm.

Still, he should have a couple of Fighter bonus feats, so it's a possibility.

Zeb The Troll

2006-11-30, 04:59 AM

Sure, that is proof of no Wisdom above 10-11. But I wouldn't place his Wisdom below 9 or 8- low, but not abysmal. Behaviour isn't good start for determining ability scores. Yes, there's no proof for Belkar having 10 Wisdom except of that thing with Owl's Wisdom, but there's no proof for him having Wisdom below 7- at least for me.
But mechanically speaking, which is what this thread's about, there is no room for discussion about Belkar's wisdom score. If it were 11, he'd have had 1 x 1st level spell per day since 6th level and would have known he could cast. If it were 9, the Owl's Wisdom spell wouldn't have been enough to let him cast CSW since that's a 4th level spell for a Ranger.

Amon Star

2006-11-30, 10:54 AM

Ooh! Nice catch! I didn't even notice the "disarm!" ping in that comic.

Why thank you. :smallsmile:

Wrecan

2006-11-30, 11:06 AM

Runoflr should probably list Nale's known spells. As a fourth level sorcerer he knows six zero-level spells, three first-level spells and one second-level spell.

So far, I can recall him casting Charm Person and Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), both first level spells. He says that he specializes in enchantment, but most of the low level Enchantments wouldn't affect most creatures of the level Nale might expect to encounter. He probably took Touch of Idiocy as his second level spell, but only time will tell.

Runolfr

2006-11-30, 12:48 PM

Runoflr should probably list Nale's known spells.

Nale's profile updated.

Wrecan

2006-11-30, 05:14 PM

On Nale's items, you might want to include Elan's possessions. I wonder if Nale has been walking around playing Elan's lute, and if he even knows how to play...

Amon Star

2006-12-01, 09:00 AM

Amon Star

2006-12-01, 09:06 AM

Just noticed. :thog: would've got rid of his illiteracy when he multi-classed to fighter.

Runolfr

2006-12-01, 11:12 AM

He can also cast some kind of Illusion Spell. Probably Silent Image, but that's just a guess.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html

Something that simple might just be an application of Prestidigitation.

Vargtass

2006-12-03, 02:35 PM

I just noticed that the entry for Xykon assumes that he is heavy on Knowledge skills. In a bonus strip of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, Xykon states "Just because sorcerers have no Knowledge skills ..." so we might want to revise this.

Runolfr

2006-12-04, 09:45 AM

I made Xykon kinda heavy on Knowledge because of his ability to effectively research the locations of the Gates. Is there a viable alternate explanation?

As it happens, Knowledge (Arcana) seems to be the only knowledge class skill for sorcerers.

Amon Star

2006-12-04, 11:07 AM

I made Xykon kinda heavy on Knowledge because of his ability to effectively research the locations of the Gates. Is there a viable alternate explanation?

His knowledge of the locations of the gates comes from decoding the halflings diary. This could be Decipher Script.

skinkatlarge

2006-12-05, 02:40 AM

Demented

2006-12-05, 02:52 AM

Turkey doesn't taste as good as a burger, but it's a great deal more filling. Roy has more total mental bonuses than V does, but not quite as much int.

Runolfr

2006-12-05, 11:41 AM

I haven't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this has been pointed out before. Strip #31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html) seems to be implying that Roy has a better INT even than V... and therefore higher than 18.

V has higher intelligence, but the total of Roy's mental stats (Int, Wis, and Cha) is the highest in the party. V is known to have a relatively low Charisma.

Runolfr

2006-12-05, 03:41 PM

It occurs to me that Improved Feint would be a good feat for Nale, allowing him to use his Sneak Attack ability more effectively in combat. It would also be compatible with the hypothesis that he has Improved Disarm, and he should have three Fighter bonus feats if he's been advancing his class levels evenly.

Any thoughts on this from the class & level geeks?

Felistor

2006-12-06, 11:47 PM

(I lost my link to the original Class & Level Geekery thread, so I don't know to what extent this was discussed over there.)

How are you guys interpreting the Unholy Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0011.html) spell? I was just reading it again in the PhB (it isn't a spell I encounter often in games, being an evil-domain-only spell) and the only effects are:
1. Good characters take full damage (1d8 per 2 CL) and are sickened (-2 to attacks, damage, saves, etc.) on failing a will save.
2. Neutral characters take 1/2 damage (1/4 on a succesful save) but are not sickened.
3. Evil characters take no damage.

The key here is how we interpret the "Can't think" (Haley), "Can't move" (Elan), and "Overwhelmed by Pure Evil" (Vaarsuvius).

If all three comments refer to the sickened effect (-2 to everything) and not merely taking damage, then all three are good-aligned characters, and all three failed the will save (Which helps give us Vaarsuvius' alignment if nothing else).

If some or all of these merely mean that they took damage, however, all it tells us is that the party (except for Belkar) is non-evil.

On the other hand, if we take Elan's "can't move" literally, then we are not dealing with a normal Unholy Blight spell, and all this is inconclusive.

The little circles over Durkon's head as well as the fact that his eyes are closed suggests an effect stronger than sickness to me. Also all the party (except Belkar) dropped whatever they are carrying, which is normally an effect only of the "stunned" condition. All in all, these seem to be unusual effects for Unholy Blight.