Re-examining saving throws [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kryx

2016-06-13, 07:41 AM

Premise
Are you dissatisfied with the balance of saving throws? Does 9 Intelligence saving throws in the game make you annoyed? Or 22 Charisma? Does it pain you that these abilities are picked much less often because the system does not value them as much as the other abilities?

If not then get out! No seriously, this thread isn't for you. If you stay please keep it cordial!

Saving Throws per Ability (numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0))

Class Features
Spells
Monsters
Misc
Total

Strength
6
18
54

78
Strength

Dexterity
4
58
52
3
117
Dexterity

Constitution
5
43
116
4
168
Constitution

Intelligence
1
4
4

9
Intelligence

Wisdom
17
36
37

90
Wisdom

Charisma
2
14
7

23
Charisma

Fixes
I won't be like Easy_Lee and just post problems that make you cringe a bit and not suggest solutions! (I kid!)

Option 1: Revert to Fort/Ref/Will
This option seemed the default. However once I started implementing it via str/con = fort, dex = ref, int/wis/cha=will I soon realized that fortitude would be massive (~251) while the others stayed mostly the same. I wouldn't know how to handle prone (dex or fort), and a bunch of flavor issues of some people disagreeing where each stat goes.
It is also rather complex in that there are far more options that use strength and then you have to determine if a monster's ability to prone an enemy is more strength or dex based (or both).

So let's scratch that idea.

Option 2: Combine Int/Wis/Cha into Will
At face value this option seems like a winner:

It requires very little work - let players roll any of the 3 mental saves for any mental save (or codify it a bit more and write "Will" down on the sheet).
Intelligence and Charisma now have a decent saving throw that is meaningful. Some will still want Wisdom for Perception and spells, but this would make it much more optional, allowing for more flavorful characters.
Will save now has more diverse options so the player will not be fairly certain that they are being banished (Charisma) or tricked (Intelligence)
Classes can now choose any 2 saving throws as they are all nearly as valuable (Ranger can be Dex Wis if it wants)

That would then leave us with:
Strength: 78
Dexterity: 114
Constitution: 168
Will: 121

That looks pretty great to me.

Any thoughts?

Gwendol

2016-06-13, 07:52 AM

If anything it shows not all abilities are the same.

Your numbers look a little weird though: CHA: 1+11+4=22? , DEX: 3+58+52+3=114?

Proposal is fine, especially for those feeling the number of saves are too large.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 07:55 AM

Your numbers look a little weird though: CHA: 1+11+4=22? , DEX: 3+58+52+3=114?
I had some previous house rules. The totals are still the same except dex is 117. Fixing the categories now.

Giant2005

2016-06-13, 08:15 AM

Shaofoo

2016-06-13, 08:21 AM

The biggest problem is the proficiency saving throws you gain with the class. Most spellcasters have two mental saves as their proficiency and this will invalidate one of them (and I do not subscribe to let them change one to any other physical because this steps on the toes of the Sorcerer which has proficiency in Constitution saving throws and I think that it should stay that way). Or we can just leave the saving throws alone as it is since it is all gain.

The makes of the game were conscious that there are three major saving throw stats (Dex, Con and Wis) and three minor saving throw stats (Str, Int, Cha) and thus each class has one major and one minor. If we are to truly keep to the vision then maybe you should just combine Int and Cha into one and leave everything else alone.

But personally I wouldn't call this entire scenario a problem because it is rebalancing the game around using the entire MM. This is highly dependent on the DM in general and I have yet to meet up with a DM that use the entire MM. This logic is the same around trying to fix poison damage because a ton of things are immune to it in the MM. It doesn't bother me that there are only 8 Int saving throws in the MM if the DM can make an entire campaign where Int saving throws are very common. It is only a problem if your only intention is to use the books and nothing else ( neither home brew or even future publications).

Kryx

2016-06-13, 08:22 AM

Option 2 would just make dump stats even more dumpy. Rather than Int applying to 8 saving throws and Cha applying to 22, they would both apply to 0 due to Wisdom absorbing those throws for itself (or whichever mental stat you are proficient in absorbing the other two). It would give every character free reign to dump two stats.
They pretty much already are dump stats with little concern to saving throws. Int/Cha nearly never come up.
On the flip side classes like Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue who have no inherent casting stat are free to choose Int, Wis, or Cha as their 2nd or 3rd stat. Previously they were basically forced to choose Wisdom

It would also obsolete the Rogue's level 15 ability, and reduce the value of the Monk's level 14 and Paladin's level 6 abilities.
Rogue, ya. But Rogue gets Dex and Will - great option for him!
Monk is still valuable. It also applies to death saves. They should have more DPR to begin with so boost that if you're concerned here.
Aura of protection is not devalued at all. It is still a great boost (likely too strong)

pwykersotz

2016-06-13, 08:23 AM

I think there's another problem with saving throws, and that is the lack of option to mitigate them other than the roll.

When you see an archer taking aim at you, you can get behind a wall or close to within 5 feet, or drop prone. Similar with other forms of attack, you can interact with the problem in an interesting way. It's not just roll -> effect, there's a lot of decisions that went into the positioning.

Most saving throws (typically on spells) don't allow this type of interaction. It's fairly binary and instantaneous, with no chance to try to do anything about it.

That said, what about Ramzour's Six Ability Save System (https://the-ducks-echo.obsidianportal.com/wikis/house-rules-saving-throws)? The original post was taken down with the WOTC forums, but I saved it. (The link goes to a more abbreviated form.)
Ramzour's Six Ability Save System

Strength: to resist any effect that forcefully moves, restrains, or paralyzes you.
Spells: Hold Person; Imprisonment; Levitate (against an unwilling creature); Thunderwave; Web
Monsters with effects that cause physical paralysis (Carrion Crawler, Ghoul, etc.)
Note: Strong creatures are hard to physically control! You don't cast Hold Person on an Ogre because it's probably too strong to be held by your magic. The invisible magical restraints of the spell are easily overcome by the Ogre's brute strength. If, however, you want to take advantage of an Ogre's weaknesses, then you should target their poor mental saves by casting Illusion, Fear, or Charm spells!!!!!!!
Potential Issue: Failing your STR save vs Hold Person gives you the Paralyzed Condition, which means you automatically fail STR and DEX saving throws. Now, the Hold Person spell also says that you can attempt a new saving throw at the end of each of your turns. This has the unfortunate side effect that means you can never re-save to end the spell early because you would automatically fail your Strength Save. This problem doesn't exist in the RAW because the spell calls for a WIS save, not my proposed STR save. How do we solve this? Solution: The most simple solution is to say that you can attempt to make a new STR save to end the spell effect early, but this STR save does not automatically fail from your Paralyzed Condition. This is a perfect example of Specific Beats General. I know it seems like a clunky fix, but that's what happens when you try to modify an existing system. You might want to use this same "fix" when an effect would give you the Stunned Condition as well.

Dexterity: to avoid area effects; to dodge projectiles or rays; to maintain your balance.
avoiding ball bearings, caltrops, hunting trap
Remain on mount when an effect forces the mount to move against its will
Spells: Blade Barrier; Burning Hands; Chain Lightning; Delayed Blast Fireball; Disintegrate; Earthquake (maintain balance and avoid holes); Faerie Fire; Fireball; Firestorm; Flame Strike; Flaming Sphere; Guardian of Faith; Light; Lightning Bolt; Meteor Swarm; Sacred Flame; Wall of Stone

Constitution: to resist effects that target your Health or Body; to resist Cold effects; to maintain your Concentration.
Poison, Disease, Necrotic or Radiant damage, Energy Drain
Forced March
Resist starvation or thirst
Recuperate during Downtime
Maintain your Concentration on a spell when you take damage
Spells: Cone of Cold; Finger of Death; Harm; Holy Aura; Ice Storm; Spirit Guardian; Sunburst;

Intelligence: to see through illusions; to avoid being tricked or confused.
Spells: Power Word Stun; all Illusion spells now require making an Intelligence Saving Throw instead of making an Intelligence (Investigation) check to disbelieve.

Wisdom: to resist Fear effects; to resist Psychic damage;
Turn Undead
Spells: Dream; Sanctuary; Fear

Charisma: to resist Charms, Enchantments, and Compulsions. Also to stay connected to your Plane.
Spells: Charm Person, Command, Dominate Monster, Dominate Person, Mass Suggestion; Otto's Irresistible Dance; Suggestion;

Implications of these changes to saving throws:
The saving throws are now more spread out over the six ability scores
Effects that call for a saving throw now better follow the definitions of each ability score
Wisdom isn't the generic catch-all for "mental things"
Strength and Constitution are finally differentiated
There are no "bad saving throws" anymore!!!! Each type of Saving Throw has a unique niche in the game mechanics.
CHARISMA IS NO LONGER A LEGITIMATE DUMP SCORE!!! EVEN FOR COMBAT!!!! VICTORY!!!!
Clerics are good at resisting Fear and Charm effects (but not necessarily Illusions)
Fighters are actually good at resisting Stuns, Restraints, Paralysis, Poison, Energy Drain, Cold, and other endurance targetting effects. This makes a Fighter HARD to CC with physical effects...just like it should be!
Rogues are good at dodging things and hard to be tricked by illusions! Makes perfect sense to me.
Wizards are good at resisting tricks, Illusions, and Fear (but not necessarily charms)

Kryx

2016-06-13, 08:30 AM

The biggest problem is the proficiency saving throws you gain with the class. Most spellcasters have two mental saves as their proficiency and this will invalidate one of them (and I do not subscribe to let them change one to any other physical because this steps on the toes of the Sorcerer which has proficiency in Constitution saving throws and I think that it should stay that way). Or we can just leave the saving throws alone as it is since it is all gain.
Indeed, I would probably leave it. Martials have some nice saves (unchanged) and Sorcerers are a bit more hearty in comparison (unchanged)

Barbarian: Str/Con
Bard: Dex/Will
Cleric: Will
Druid: Will
Fighter: Str/Con
Monk: Str/Dex
Paladin: Str/Will
Ranger: Str/Dex (or use the UA saves and go dex/will)
Rogue: Dex/Will
Sorcerer: Con/Will
Warlock: Will
Wizard: Will

The makes of the game were conscious that there are three major saving throw stats (Dex, Con and Wis) and three minor saving throw stats (Str, Int, Cha) and thus each class has one major and one minor.
They failed pretty hard. Strength is nearly a major and the other 2 are trash. In my campaign with level 10 players they have pretty much never rolled charisma and only rolled intelligence for mindflayers.

But personally I wouldn't call this entire scenario a problem because it is rebalancing the game around using the entire MM.
It's not just monsters. I broke the saves down to categories to make this rather apparent.

It is only a problem if your only intention is to use the books and nothing else ( neither home brew or even future publications).
The problem is the GM is not expected to balance the system that the designers didn't bother to.

smcmike

2016-06-13, 08:31 AM

On the flip side classes like Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue who have no inherent casting stat are free to choose Int, Wis, or Cha as their 2nd or 3rd stat. Previously they were basically forced to choose Wisdom.

I'm in the camp that doesn't see this as necessary, but this, I think, is a pretty good point.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 08:33 AM

I think there's another problem with saving throws, and that is the lack of option to mitigate them other than the roll.
A bit out of scope, but Dexterity saves can all be mitigated as well (except Sacred Flame). Cover applies to them.
Strength and Con cannot. I'm fine with Con - there isn't much to do to suddenly make yourself more resistant. Strength not much either.

But this is a bit out of scope.

what about Ramzour's Six Ability Save System (https://the-ducks-echo.obsidianportal.com/wikis/house-rules-saving-throws)? The original post was taken down with the WOTC forums, but I saved it. (The link goes to a more abbreviated form.)[/SPOILER]
That was my original houserule. It turned out to be nearly the same numbers. There were some small (fiddly) changes where I examined each saving throw, but in the end the numbers are nearly identical to the base system.

ad_hoc

2016-06-13, 08:58 AM

Kryx

2016-06-13, 09:18 AM

My solution is to sometimes call for an Int/Cha saving throw instead of Wis as is thematically appropriate.

My suggestion would be to go through the full list of things that call for Wisdom saving throws and change some of them.
Even if you were to go through the trouble of changing them to be equally distributed you'd then have

Strength 78
Dexterity 117
Constitution 168
Intelligence 40
Wisdom 40
Charisma 40

How do you determine which is which? What about the whole 1 strong and 1 weak? This doesn't balance it, nor is it easy.

ad_hoc

2016-06-13, 09:25 AM

Giant2005

2016-06-13, 09:27 AM

Even if you were to go through the trouble of changing them to be equally distributed you'd then have

Strength 78
Dexterity 117
Constitution 168
Intelligence 40
Wisdom 40
Charisma 40

How do you determine which is which? What about the whole 1 strong and 1 weak? This doesn't balance it, nor is it easy.

It certainly isn't easy, but it does achieve better results. You would just need to move more of the saves around and distribute them a lot better. Many of the Con saves could easily be Cha or Wisdom saves for instance.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 09:47 AM

I didn't suggest making them equal.
30 each vs Wisdom's 60? This makes Wisdom (a primary benefit) worse than Strength and the other 2 don't improve significantly enough.

It certainly isn't easy, but it does achieve better results. You would just need to move more of the saves around and distribute them a lot better. Many of the Con saves could easily be Cha or Wisdom saves for instance.
Stun (11), Paralysis (14), Unconscious (6), Blind (15), Deaf (3), Petrify (6), lower max hp (7) = 62 is to prevent your body from being hindered in some way
Poison (53) isn't moving
Disease(9) isn't moving
Necrotic (14) isn't moving
Cold (12) shouldn't move
Exhaustion (2) shouldn't move
Die (3) shouldn't move

There are some small overlaps here, but that is 155/168 that aren't moving. I'm sure more if I did more than just this simple search.

Even if you did decide to rebalance them all what criteria do you use? The process for doing this would require an immense amount of changes. You'd have to alter probably 30% of the saving throws in the game. For someone who uses any virtual tabletop with imports (Roll20 with the Shaped sheet or Fantasy Grounds) this is a non-starter.

Constitution saves make total sense as they are.

SharkForce

2016-06-13, 09:58 AM

i think it is largely assisted in balance by just how unpleasant it is to fail some of those saves.

sure, there's lots of strength saves. most of them inflict prone or restrained as i recall (also grapple in a few cases, but that's basically restrained lite). those can be fairly unpleasant status effects. but they are not as bad as banished, or stunned, or whatever you call it when an intellect devourer does its thing.

i would probably consider shifting a few things over (i still don't get why int is used to resist illusions unless that illusion is phantasmal killer or weird), but mostly i wouldn't mess around with it.

oh, and i'm pretty sure you missed an int spell. sort of. probably symbol, which can target int but doesn't have to. which probably also means you forgot about its ability to target cha.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-13, 10:12 AM

Ohoho, called out by name, am I?

My suggestion is two part:

Allow target to pick from multiple saves, as appropriate. Two examples:

Grease allows a Dex save to avoid falling. Let user make an Int save to have the presence of mind to simply not move when the grease spreads, so the grease doesn't seep underneath their feet.
A target fails a strength save and falls off a cliff. Give them a Dex save to catch the ledge.

Home-brewed monster spells and abilities calling for underused saves.

Both of these fall to the DM. But it isn't the first time a DM has had to fix something.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 10:16 AM

oh, and i'm pretty sure you missed an int spell. sort of. probably symbol, which can target int but doesn't have to. which probably also means you forgot about its ability to target cha.
Symbol is there for cha, not for Int. It's a spell that does several saves - I wasn't sure how to label this one. I added it. A whole whopping 9 uses for Intelligence saves.

Both of these fall to the DM. But it isn't the first time a DM has had to fix something.
I think that's the approach most people are taking.
I, myself, prefer to fix the base system. The same argument we make for TWF and several other areas. The GM could add on band aids, but that's hard to remember and difficult to balance.

pwykersotz

2016-06-13, 10:33 AM

i think it is largely assisted in balance by just how unpleasant it is to fail some of those saves.

I think this point has some weight. Combining the mental stats into one save makes that save a must-have.

Other issues:
8/12 classes have this combined proficiency
The Paladin has the proficiency twice.

The solution for the classes is easy enough, retool their basic proficiencies. The Will being a must-have is more difficult. I'm having difficulty thinking of a good answer for it.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-13, 10:42 AM

Problem I'm running into is, short of allowing the user to choose from multiple saves or having the DM make sure they all come up, the only thing we can really do is house rule specific spells and abilities to use different saving throws. That's a staggering amount of house ruling.

One thing pointed out to me before is that every class has two saving throws, one major and one minor. Everyone has one of the big three and one of the small three, in other words. So it may not be as big of a deal as it seems (though I still don't like it).

Kryx

2016-06-13, 10:48 AM

I think this point has some weight. Combining the mental stats into one save makes that save a must-have.
Is it any different from Constitution and Dexterity?

Constitution is certainly must-have for casters. For other 62 conditions, 9 diseases, dying are quite bad.
53 poison and 26 damage isn't so terrible, but there was a thread a while ago that determined that damage saving throws killed characters as often as other saving throws.

Dexterity is 89/117 damage or half with some prone, blind, restrained, etc mixed in. Again, damage can be quite a problem.

Will is a bunch of conditions and some damage - pretty similar to what it was in 3.X and 4e. It's on par with those other 2 imo.

8/12 classes have this combined proficiency
It's pretty similar to normal.
Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are basically the same with some niche cases added in from either Cha or Int
Warlock has 9 added from Int
Sorcerer and Bard definitely get more resistant - they add 99 saves. could be useful to their class balance (sorcerer primarily, bard could probably use it too).
Paladin has historically been mentally strong so it fits. It already has double Cha. Double Will would be OP, but double cha already is. It probably needs fixing either way.
Rogue has historically has mentally strong as well - see the 14th level ability and slippery mind in old editions. Perfectly fine imo.

Problem I'm running into is, short of allowing the user to choose from multiple saves or having the DM make sure they all come up, the only thing we can really do is house rule specific spells and abilities to use different saving throws. That's a staggering amount of house ruling.
See the OP for my suggestion which is very very simple: Let them roll any of the mental saves for any of the others.

SharkForce

2016-06-13, 10:52 AM

i'll also add that it may have even been by design that int and cha are the least common saves.

one of the things that made high level fighters good in 2nd edition was that they eventually got to have really good saving throws in all categories. 5th edition is behind in that regard (strength and con may cover a lot of saves compared to any other permitted combo, but certainly isn't as good as a 2e level 20 fighter saves), but it may be deliberate that strength and con covers a lot more territory than wis and int or wis and cha.

pwykersotz

2016-06-13, 11:13 AM

Is it any different from Constitution and Dexterity?

Constitution is certainly must-have for casters. For other 62 conditions, 9 diseases, dying are quite bad.
53 poison and 26 damage isn't so terrible, but there was a thread a while ago that determined that damage saving throws killed characters as often as other saving throws.

Dexterity is 89/117 damage or half with some prone, blind, restrained, etc mixed in. Again, damage can be quite a problem.

Will is a bunch of conditions and some damage - pretty similar to what it was in 3.X and 4e. It's on par with those other 2 imo.

It's pretty similar to normal.
Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are basically the same with some niche cases added in from either Cha or Int
Warlock has 9 added from Int
Sorcerer and Bard definitely get more resistant - they add 99 saves. could be useful to their class balance (sorcerer primarily, bard could probably use it too).
Paladin has historically been mentally strong so it fits. It already has double Cha. Double Will would be OP, but double cha already is. It probably needs fixing either way.
Rogue has historically has mentally strong as well - see the 14th level ability and slippery mind in old editions. Perfectly fine imo.

Ah, good to know the classes are similar to normal.

And maybe it's just my playstyle, but I consider damage to be one of the least threatening effects in the game if taken by itself. Other effects tend to multiply damage or remove your ability to act, which are far worse. Do you recall the thread title that you mention? I'd like to educate myself on it before continuing.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-13, 11:13 AM

See the OP for my suggestion which is very very simple: Let them roll any of the mental saves for any of the others.

I did read the OP, and it makes sense. The numbers work out

But consider those classes who have two mental saves as per class features, such as wizards. They end up with the short end of the stick on this, as compared with classes like fighter. And Monks, already a save-making machine, need only pick up resilient WIS to become proficient in over half of all saving throws. (Edit: not that they necessarily would, given diamond body at 14, but you get the point).

The base system is a bit imbalanced, as stated, but I can't think of many good ways to fix it.

Double edit: reread OP and saw bit about choosing saves. Okay. If specifically combined with choosing proficient saves, then I like the system. On a side note, I proposed a system a while back for letting classes choose those attributes which apply to their attack rolls and AC, to allow for things like intelligent gnome fighters and wise wizards, and this seems like it would go hand in hand.

Djinn_in_Tonic

2016-06-13, 11:21 AM

Stun (11), Paralysis (14), Unconscious (6), Blind (15), Deaf (3), Petrify (6), lower max hp (7) = 62 is to prevent your body from being hindered in some way
Poison (53) isn't moving
Disease(9) isn't moving
Necrotic (14) isn't moving
Cold (12) shouldn't move
Exhaustion (2) shouldn't move
Die (3) shouldn't move

Necrotic could easily move -- it can be your body's ability to withstand debilitating effects, but it could also be your strength of life enabling you to withstand negative energy. Both fit in terms of how D&D defines "necrotic" damage and how D&D defines Charisma. A similar thing could hold against some death effects.

The rest though? Yeah, those I'll grant you.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 11:31 AM

Do you recall the thread title that you mention? I'd like to educate myself on it before continuing.
I tried to do a search, but came up empty. I think it's on EnWorld somewhere.
I'm inclined to agree that damage isn't as bad as conditions, but it depends on how common each is. In 5e's case the damage ones are very common. Small damage is inconsequential, but big damage (from a dragon's breath for example) can be quite likely to down a PC.

But consider those classes who have two mental saves as per class features, such as wizards. They end up with the short end of the stick on this, as compared with classes like fighter. And Monks, already a save-making machine, need only pick up resilient WIS to become proficient in over half of all saving throws. (Edit: not that they necessarily would, given diamond body at 14, but you get the point).
per above:

Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are basically the same with some niche cases added in from either Cha or Int
Warlock has 9 added from Int
Sorcerer and Bard definitely get more resistant - they add 99 saves. could be useful to their class balance (sorcerer primarily, bard could probably use it too).
Paladin has historically been mentally strong so it fits. It already has double Cha. Double Will would be OP, but double cha already is. It probably needs fixing either way.
Rogue has historically has mentally strong as well - see the 14th level ability and slippery mind in old editions. Perfectly fine imo.

Clerics, Druids, Rangers Wizards, Warlocks don't change much at all.
Fighter/Barbarian don't receive a buff by default.
Monk stays the same except getting a smaller version of diamond mind earlier.
Paladin and Rogue see above.
Sorc and bard (See above)

Now there may be an issue with resilient. Not sure.

Mr.Moron

2016-06-13, 11:34 AM

While I can't say I'm "Pained" by it, I think the system probably isn't ideal. That said I'm not sure I'd be happy with returning to a 3.X way of doing things. As I see it the problem is more that bad saves are hopeless than that some saves are less useful than others (even marginal in some cases). It's an interesting knob to turn from a design standpoint.

I'd be more inclined to answers that keep some saves more useful than others, but provides a way to mitigate bad saves. In general I'm a fan of mechanics that spend resources and re purpose existing mechanics.

Hit Dice seem an interesting place to go. Hit Dice already represent a vaguely-defined ability of all adventurers to shrug things off as they gain levels. Perhaps they could apply to saves in some way? For example

Option 1: Spend 1 Hit Die, add your proficiency bonus to a save you aren't proficient with. This means that you can potentially get your bonus on every save, especially as games drag on but at a cost in effective hp. This favors those that already have more useful saves, since they'll need to spend dice less often.
Option 2: Spend any number of hit dice after failing a save. If this meets or exceeds the DC you succeed on the save rather than fail. This is much more resource intensive, but invovles less risk since you can potentially make any save marginal (albeit at high cost). This favors those with large hit dice.

Neither of these changes the core flavor or math of the base system, but does provide an alternative.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 11:42 AM

As I see it the problem is more that bad saves are hopeless than that some saves are less useful than others (even marginal in some cases).
I agree that this is a problem. The best houserule that I've seen (and use) is to apply half-proficiency bonus on unproficient saves. Now a fighter has a 20% chance to succeed on a DC 20 save at 17+ instead of 5%.

Hit Dice seem an interesting place to go.
Hugely problematic saving throws come don't come up often enough to set the cost so low imo. In my games so far a save-or-die level of problem comes up maybe once a session or less. So the cost is far too low. I'd gladly blow 4-6 HP + con to avoid being banished, sure!

N810

2016-06-13, 11:48 AM

Our DM has us make intelligence rolls or saves when we are missing something obvious that our characters should know.

Mr.Moron

2016-06-13, 11:51 AM

I agree that this is a problem. The best houserule that I've seen (and use) is to apply half-proficiency bonus on unproficient saves. Now a fighter has a 20% chance to succeed on a DC 20 save at 17+ instead of 5%.

Hugely problematic saving throws come don't come up often enough to set the cost so low imo. In my games so far a save-or-die level of problem comes up maybe once a session or less. So the cost is far too low. I'd gladly blow 4-6 HP + con to avoid being banished, sure!

Well, a saving throw is still a saving throw. Just because you're spending a resource to get your profiency bonus does not mean you've avodied the effect, it just means you now have a better chance at avoiding the effect. Your proficiency bonus isn't going to save you from an "8" on the die.

Still if the cost is too low there are lots of cost structures you can use:

1/2 your hit dice: This scales with your level, regardless of effect power. It's just a general "shrug off" action that has the same relative cost. Note this forces players to "sit" on hit dice to save them to pay the cost.
Spell level of effect: This scales with the power of the effect and low level players can't shrug off high level effects. Cons: You'd need to come with a good metric for leveling non-spell effects but this shouldn't be hard.
All your remaining hit dice: This has no real scaling but has a real "I can only do this once" feel to it. It encourages risk taking earlier in the adventuring day but makes the choice a bit later in the day. This might make being able to blow just a few points later in the day feel like a reward for clever play (or just good luck) earlier in the day.

You know or anything else. It's also worth nothing that save-or-die are hardly the only effects that players are interested in avoiding. If single-die character losses are a casualty of providing a source of more consistency on day-to-day threats, is that a terrible trade-off?

pwykersotz

2016-06-13, 11:53 AM

Well, a saving throw is still a saving throw. Just because you're spending a resource to get your profiency bonus does not mean you've avodied the effect, it just means you now have a better chance at avoiding the effect. Your proficiency bonus isn't going to save you from an "8" on the die.

Still if the cost is too low there are lots of cost structures you can use:

1/2 your hit dice: This scales with your level, regardless of effect power. It's just a general "shrug off" action that has the same relative cost. Note this forces players to "sit" on hit dice to save them to pay the cost.
Spell level of effect: This scales with the power of the effect and low level players can't shrug off high level effects. Cons: You'd need to come with a good metric for leveling non-spell effects but this shouldn't be hard.
All your remaining hit dice: This has no real scaling but has a real "I can only do this once" feel to it. It encourages risk taking earlier in the adventuring day but makes the choice a bit later in the day. This might make being able to blow just a few points later in the day feel like a reward for clever play (or just good luck) earlier in the day.

Or for a cheaper effect but lower impact, spend a hit die to gain proficiency on a save for that roll.

Mr.Moron

2016-06-13, 11:55 AM

Or for a cheaper effect but lower impact, spend a hit die to gain proficiency on a save for that roll.

That is exactly my option as presented earlier:

Option 1: Spend 1 Hit Die, add your proficiency bonus to a save you aren't proficient with. ...

Easy_Lee

2016-06-13, 11:56 AM

pwykersotz

2016-06-13, 12:03 PM

That is exactly my option as presented earlier:

Missed that. :smallredface:

Giant2005

2016-06-13, 12:12 PM

Pex

2016-06-13, 12:34 PM

Easy_Lee

2016-06-13, 12:42 PM

The proposed solution does not address my problem with saving throws, at least directly, that you get worse in saving throws as you gain levels. Casters are improving their casting stat. DC of monster abilities increase as the CR increases. PCs cannot improve all their scores to compensate. Paladins get a good jump early and monks come in later. It's what makes Bless such a valuable spell. However, with the proposed solution narrowing the saving throws, the number of non-proficient saves decreases lessening the issue. Maybe the proposed solution does fix the issue or at least mitigate it enough by coincidence if not intent. I'll need to ponder.

I agree that this is a problem. Limiting it to three saves and making each class proficient in one does fix the problem, I think. Everyone can be expected to have a high strength / dexterity, constitution, or intellignence / wisdom / charisma. So every character should be good at one save.

As for Resilient, we would probably want to make it a full feat, not a half feat, under this system. However, one other benefit to this system is that resilient is less needed, and could potentially be done away with. A balanced party of four will almost certainly have all three saves covered, vs a current party of four being likely to miss something like strength, intelligence, or charisma.

Kryx

2016-06-13, 01:05 PM

Perhaps an ammendment to option one under the OP. As we all know, strength and speed are one in the same in real life. While a rogue might avoid an AoE, a Barbarian might muscle through it and take half damage. And while a Barbarian might muscle through a gust of wind, a rogue might turn his body in such a way to diminish its force.

Reflex = STR/DEX
Fortitide = CON
Will = WIS/INT/CHA

That would then leave us with:
Reflex: 78 + 114 = 192
Fortitude: 168
Will: 121

The numbers make sense given the typical penalties for failure on Reflex / Fortitude / Will: Bad / Really Bad / Awful.
Muahahaha, I converted you to the dark side of even considering it!

I think Strength/Dex is a much better concept than Dex/Int of 4e. There is a lot of crossover in prone and similarly in being able to use acrobatic or athletics to avoid being made prone. That makes a lot of sense.
Mechanically it makes a lot of sense as Dex saves are mostly damage with some occsional CC. But combined with the mostly light CC of Strength and proning effects it becomes a pretty good choice.

I'm not 100% convinced, but definitely interested. I'll think a bit.

The proposed solution does not address my problem with saving throws, at least directly, that you get worse in saving throws as you gain levels. Casters are improving their casting stat. DC of monster abilities increase as the CR increases. PCs cannot improve all their scores to compensate. Paladins get a good jump early and monks come in later. It's what makes Bless such a valuable spell. However, with the proposed solution narrowing the saving throws, the number of non-proficient saves decreases lessening the issue. Maybe the proposed solution does fix the issue or at least mitigate it enough by coincidence if not intent. I'll need to ponder.
You get worse in unproficient saves. Proficient saves for stats that are not your main stat scale at a slightly slow rate than spell DCs. I think the solution to this, even under the proposed system, is that unproficient saves add half proficiency bonus.

I'd likely do away with resilient. Or maybe keep it around as the benefit is lower if you already get half proficiency.

Zalabim

2016-06-14, 02:28 AM

The proposed solution does not address my problem with saving throws, at least directly, that you get worse in saving throws as you gain levels. Casters are improving their casting stat. DC of monster abilities increase as the CR increases. PCs cannot improve all their scores to compensate. Paladins get a good jump early and monks come in later. It's what makes Bless such a valuable spell. However, with the proposed solution narrowing the saving throws, the number of non-proficient saves decreases lessening the issue. Maybe the proposed solution does fix the issue or at least mitigate it enough by coincidence if not intent. I'll need to ponder.

The same thing happens with your AC. Equal level things are either going to get easier, harder, or stay the same with regard to accuracy as you level. If it stays the same, it's called a treadmill. Between easier and harder, easier has things happening more often, so it's more fun, right?

Kryx

2016-06-14, 04:48 AM

Since I did the math elsewhere:

If we use DCs from DMG 274 and assume a Fighter is unproficient with his Fort and Will save. He has 16 con and has 14 in one of his will abilities:

Level 1-4 (DC 13):
Proficient primary save (ref) = 60% chance of success.
Half-prof seconday save (fort) = 55% chance of success.
Unproficient seconday save (fort) = 50% chance of success.
Half-prof tertiary save (will) = 50% chance of success.
Unproficient tertiary save (will) = 45% chance of success.
Anydice (http://anydice.com/program/89c9)

Level 5-8 (DC 15):
Proficient primary save (ref) = 60% chance of success.
Half-prof seconday save (fort) = 45% chance of success.
Unproficient seconday save (fort) = 40% chance of success.
Half-prof tertiary save (will) = 40% chance of success.
Unproficient tertiary save (will) = 35% chance of success.
Anydice (http://anydice.com/program/89cb)

Level 9-12 (DC 16-17 - call it 17):
Proficient primary save (ref) = 60% chance of success.
Half-prof seconday save (fort) = 40% chance of success.
Unproficient seconday save (fort) = 30% chance of success.
Half-prof tertiary save (will) = 35% chance of success.
Unproficient tertiary save (will) = 25% chance of success.
Anydice (http://anydice.com/program/89cc)

Level 13-16 (DC 18):
Proficient primary save (ref) = 60% chance of success.
Half-prof seconday save (fort) = 35% chance of success.
Unproficient seconday save (fort) = 25% chance of success.
Half-prof tertiary save (will) = 30% chance of success.
Unproficient tertiary save (will) = 20% chance of success.
Anydice (http://anydice.com/program/89cd)

Level 17-20 (DC 19):
Proficient primary save (ref) = 60% chance of success.
Half-prof seconday save (fort) = 35% chance of success.
Unproficient seconday save (fort) = 20% chance of success.
Half-prof tertiary save (will) = 30% chance of success.
Unproficient tertiary save (will) = 15% chance of success.
Anydice (http://anydice.com/program/89ce)

Based on this I think 5-15% is definitely a compelling reason to want the proficiency in the save. I find a 15% success rate to be far too low. 30 and 35% is still quite bad, but at least has a chance.

So I would claim that saving throws are pretty unbalanced without half proficiency to unproficient saves based on those numbers.

The numbers would be worse for the default system for low stat saves - typically intelligence and charisma.

ClintACK

2016-06-14, 05:29 AM

Saving Throws per Ability (numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0))

Class Features
Spells
Monsters
Misc
Total

Strength
6
18
54

78
Strength

Dexterity
4
58
52
3
117
Dexterity

Constitution
5
43
116
4
168
Constitution

Intelligence
1
4
4

9
Intelligence

Wisdom
17
36
37

90
Wisdom

Charisma
2
14
7

23
Charisma

...
Any thoughts?

It seems like this is part of an even bigger imbalance between the primary stats.

In addition to Saves --
Dexterity controls Initiative, AC, and attack and damage for light and ranged weapons.
Constitution controls hit points, as well as lots of saves.
And Wisdom controls perception which can determine the all-important surprise round.

Consider the difference between two characters:
S:6, D:20, C:20, I:6, W:10, Ch:6 can be an extremely effective adventurer in just about any class -- even wizard, by taking utility spells and buffs. (Where Con -- to maintain concentration -- is more important than Int to boost Save DCs.)

Heck S:4, D:20, C:16, I:4, W:4, Ch:4 is sort-of viable.

But a character with S:20, D:6, C:6, I:20, W:10, Ch:20 is going to have serious problems in any class. He goes last in combat, can't take a punch or avoid it, and can't maintain concentration on spells. You keep him around for the high save DCs of his spells and his use as a diplomat. And for carrying heavy things, I guess, though you could just get a pack mule.

Kryx

2016-06-14, 06:01 AM

And Wisdom controls perception which can determine the all-important surprise round.
I've almost never had a surprise round in 10 levels. They require a lot of work from the PCs and them to success on a stealth check collectively. They never seem to be bothered.

But you're right: abilities aren't balanced in what they offer. I would like them to be more balanced than they are now, but that's a rather different topic. Overall I find the abilities to be pretty ok.

At the risk of going off the deep end with this topic:
Str: Str saves (under estimated imo), Jump, Climb, Swim, Grapple, Escape a grapple, Shove, break things, carrying capacity, overrun highest melee damage options (by a fair amount. Raw like 20%)
Dex: AC, initiative, Dex saves (overestimated a bit in their value), balance, escape a grapple, stunts, tumble, stealth, sleight of hand. Ranged and finesse attack and damage (less than melee strength)
Con: HP, Con saves (very valuable), and environment factors
Int: Knowledge skills, Int saves (who cares), and spellcasting
Wis: perception, insight, Wis saves (very valuable), and spellcasting
Cha: Social Skills, Cha saves (pretty mediocre), and spellcasting

This can be improved by

Str - use encumbrance. Fix saving throws a bit. AC is counteracted by Armor which has no ability score cost.
Int - More history/arcana/investigation checks. It doesn't need much, but an extra skill and language if you have 12+ int is what I've gone with.
Wis - Make medicine a decent skill - have healer's kits give advantage instead of auto success. Move some of the healer feat features to medicine.

I think Wisdom is actually pretty much on par with charisma and intelligence if the saving throw issue is fixed. It's nice, but the other options are just as viable.

TL;DR: The main issue is the saves imo. The rest can be slightly tweaked with some pretty good results in the end.

Dimers

2016-06-14, 06:47 AM

I was going to say that combining Str and Dex into one save will make primary Dexterity even more of an awesome deal for Fighters. But no, greatweapon Fighters and rapier Fighters both benefit, since greatweapon picks up a greater number of saves.

I would definitely want to play a rapier Shield Master fighter under this system. :smallsmile:

Democratus

2016-06-14, 07:45 AM

The proposed solution does not address my problem with saving throws, at least directly, that you get worse in saving throws as you gain levels.

This is a feature, not a bug. You get more and more HP as you level but Save effects get more dangerous.

That's a good balance to maintain dramatic tension in combat.

Vogonjeltz

2016-06-14, 10:08 AM

That looks pretty great to me.

Any thoughts?

Rather than just pure numbers, did you compare outcomes of failure?

My off the cuff, read everything in the game, analysis suggests the rarest kinds of saving throws (Intelligence) also carry the most devastating consequences, and the most common saving throws (Dexterity, Constitution) are usually less problematic. Con is often for poison, Dex for 1/2 damage. They can be bad...but a failed Int save is for something like Feeblemind, which might just be game over.

So, it might be a good idea for you to weight the saves by expected outcome (i.e. as a group, how likely are the saves to happen, how awful are the consequences for the particular character?).

Kryx

2016-06-14, 11:25 AM

At several points throughout the thread, yes.

Constitution:
Stun (11), Paralysis (14), Unconscious (6), Blind (15), Deaf (3), Petrify (6), lower max hp (7) = 62 is to prevent your body from being hindered in some way
Poison (53) isn't moving
Disease(9) isn't moving
Necrotic (14) isn't moving
Cold (12) shouldn't move
Exhaustion (2) shouldn't move
Die (3) shouldn't move

Constitution is certainly must-have for casters. For other 62 conditions, 9 diseases, dying are quite bad.
53 poison and 26 damage isn't so terrible, but there was a thread a while ago that determined that damage saving throws killed characters as often as other saving throws.

Dexterity is 89/117 damage or half with some prone, blind, restrained, etc mixed in. Again, damage can be quite a problem.

Will is a bunch of conditions and some damage - pretty similar to what it was in 3.X and 4e. It's on par with those other 2 imo.

They are also all on the linked google doc. I can't do all the work - if people want to participate and know how it currently works they'll have to read this thread and look at the doc I created to specifically give this information.

Pex

2016-06-14, 12:01 PM

This is a feature, not a bug. You get more and more HP as you level but Save effects get more dangerous.

That's a good balance to maintain dramatic tension in combat.

There are worse things that can happen to you than just losing hit points to some effect. I don't need to be getting worse at something as I level to have dramatic tension.

Democratus

2016-06-14, 12:45 PM

There are worse things that can happen to you than just losing hit points to some effect. I don't need to be getting worse at something as I level to have dramatic tension.

You may or may not like it. But works well as designed and it does help maintain peril and, therefore, tension for characters as they reach higher levels.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-14, 12:56 PM

You may or may not like it. But works well as designed and it does help maintain peril and, therefore, tension for characters as they reach higher levels.

True, but the balance of the game changes, and saves are a big part of that. A level 1 fighter can kill a target with one good swing, while a level 20 will take several good rounds at a minimum. Meanwhile, a level 1 wizard has a very high chance of mobs resisting his saves. By 20, if he targets the correct save, it will work nine times out of ten, and he has more to choose from.

Half-proficiency to non-proficient saves helps curve that just a little, giving the wizard a smaller chance of winning the encounter with one spell, and thus making melee a little more useful at high levels. The same is true of players: they have a better shot for one of them, at least, to resist a hazardous effect (assuming ~30% chance to make non-proficient saves). That way, the tension stays high, as opposed to a sudden and unexpected TPK.

Democratus

2016-06-14, 02:00 PM

Sudden and unexpected TPKs are a staple of the game! :smallcool:

Nothing drives home the deadliness of a game world than a few TPKs even at high level.

Knaight

2016-06-14, 02:07 PM

It's probably worth introducing some sort of weighting factor into these. Take Wisdom - yes, Dex and Con have vastly more saves, but failing individual Wisdom saves has a tendency to suck a great deal more.

Mr.Moron

2016-06-14, 02:08 PM

Sudden and unexpected TPKs are a staple of the game! :smallcool:

Nothing drives home the deadliness of a game world than a few TPKs even at high level.

What if you primary driver for playing the game is something other than salivating over just how deadly the world can be?

Democratus

2016-06-14, 03:40 PM

What if you primary driver for playing the game is something other than salivating over just how deadly the world can be?

Different people like different experiences.

If the game offers an experience contrary to your preferences it doesn't mean the game is broken. It just means that the game doesn't suit your needs.

I've crawled through the horrors of Greyhawk, the Tomb of Horrors, and the Lost City. The game has had a grand tradition of intense lethality. One of the great "old-school feel" things 5th edition brought back was the fragility PCs.

A DM can, of course, alter anything with a wave of the hand. It can make the game more palatable to other types of player. But it won't be "fixing" the game because that would assume that it isn't accomplishing it's intended purpose.

YMMV

Kryx

2016-06-14, 04:58 PM

Let's not get into the debate about acceptable deadliness. Some people like the game as it is. As said in the OP: This thread isn't targeted at you. This thread is targeted at those who want more balance.

AS Democratus said: different people want different experiences. I want play D&D in a more balanced state than it exists by default. That has been true in all editions and this one as well. I prefer each character option to be as equally viable as the next and to have the math of the system make sense.

But others prefer what currently exists. Let's not debate which is better please.

RickAllison

2016-06-14, 04:59 PM

What if you primary driver for playing the game is something other than salivating over just how deadly the world can be?

May I make a suggestion (rather than just lurking)? Turn the TPK into a plot point. Especially at higher levels, having the world lose heroes of your calibre could be a terrible hit. For a fun temporary shift down to earlier levels, you have a group of youths band together (the new, temporary PCs) to bring back the heroes. This advances the clock (so it has a consequence in that any time-sensitive goals are failed), gives a reason why you are all back (so it isn't a Deus ex Machina), and let's everyone try a character without it being a long-term thing.

Pex

2016-06-14, 10:26 PM

Sudden and unexpected TPKs are a staple of the game! :smallcool:

Nothing drives home the deadliness of a game world than a few TPKs even at high level.

See Early Level TPKs thread on my opinion of those who see TPKs as a wonderful thing to be cheered used as a benchmark on what makes for a good game.

ClintACK

2016-06-14, 11:41 PM

I've always wanted to try a post-TPK game...

There really is an afterlife in D&D, and if the whole party is dead -- they're all out there somewhere in the Outer Planes.

Why not regroup and continue the mindless waves of combat and leveling -- fight with the Einherjar in Asgard or on the Battle Plains of Acheron. Or finally take the time to hunt down that devil that you just banished way back when.

(I also like the idea of a post-TPK game where the Paladin's steed and the Warlock's familiar and the Ranger's animal companion work together to avenge their fallen friends.)

Witch of Whimsy

2016-06-15, 12:48 AM

This is also a problem my DM and I had when setting up for 5e. At first, we very much enjoyed the concept that every stat had a save tied to it, but it quickly became apparent that, with the exception of Strength showing strongly, it was basically just the 3 save system again. What we ended up doing was pretty drastic, but in my opinion, produced great results.

As for what exactly we decided to do... essentially, we went over the flavor for what every Ability Score stood for, which went as follows.

Strength- Measures Physical Power
Dexterity- Measures Agility
Constitution- Measures Endurance
Intelligence- Measures Reasoning and Memory
Wisdom- Measures Perception and Insight
Charisma- Measures Force of Personality.

Then, using the above as a basis for decision-making, we went through every spell in the book, considered the flavor text for how the spell functioned, and adjusted saves based on what the spell was trying to overcome. This meant we had to define precisely what kind of effects each ability score would combat, and these were more or less what we decided on.

Strength Saves: Forced Movement Effects like Push/Pull, effects that restrain you, or otherwise anything that can be logically bested with raw power.
Dexterity Saves: AoE Spells, Spells with slight delays before their effect goes through (through travel time or building in potency), or any spell effect that can reasonably be evaded.
Constitution Saves: Anything that inflicts a condition on your physical body, such as poison or disease, that might be endured or otherwise shrugged off by your hardy... well... constitution.
Intelligence Saves: If it preys on your memories, deals psychic damage, or otherwise can be rendered (mostly) harmless by coming to understand the effect only exists in your head, it's an Intelligence save.
Wisdom Saves: Essentially the Constitution of Mental Saves, Wisdom is assumed to be your preternatural resistance to abilities which target your spiritual being, be they curses or otherwise. If that's a bit overly nuanced, a good rule of thumb here is, "If it doesn't fit the criteria for any other Ability, it's probably a Wisdom Save."
Charisma Saves: The vast majority of charm and fear effects fall here, as well as anything else that attempts to tame or otherwise curb your free will. Bravery is being afraid yet pressing on regardless, and in the same way, you overcome charms or domination by refusing to give in to magical temptation; your Charisma score embodies these concepts.

That said, there were a few edge cases that functioned in a way that might interact with multiple saves. With these, you're best off just going with whatever feels "more correct" to you, but here are a few examples.

Phantasmal Killer is a fear effect that deals psychic damage. We consider it an Intelligence save rather than a Charisma save because A) It is a phantasm that isn't real, and B) It causes Psychic damage, implying it is only harmful if you believe in it.
Hypnotic Pattern is a charm effect, but doesn't override your personality, and can be reasonably overcome through logic, so we also consider it an Intelligence Save rather than Charisma.
Petrify Effects are hard to place, but since they alter your physical body in a fashion that is decidedly unnatural, and not something you might naturally build up a physical resistance to over time, we consider magical petrify effects to be Wisdom, though injected or imbibed petrify effects would still be Constitution, as those strictly rely on your body preventing the toxin from activating.

...Aaaaand that's what my DM and I did to address this issue. Your mileage may vary, but I personally find this system of handling saves to be a great deal more interesting, from both a technical and thematic standpoint.

Kryx

2016-06-15, 03:25 AM

As for what exactly we decided to do... essentially, we went over the flavor for what every Ability Score stood for, which went as follows.
My criteria was nearly identical to yours and I went through the same process only to arrive at a system that was barely any different in terms of balance (less than 10% better) and was incredibly fiddly to manage.

Do you have a full list? I'd expect you had similar problems, but perhaps not. The list by RAW is on the google spreadsheet in the OP.

Witch of Whimsy

2016-06-15, 06:59 AM

My criteria was nearly identical to yours and I went through the same process only to arrive at a system that was barely any different in terms of balance (less than 10% better) and was incredibly fiddly to manage.

Do you have a full list? I'd expect you had similar problems, but perhaps not. The list by RAW is on the google spreadsheet in the OP.

I do not have a full list in terms of class features and monster abilities, but I do have a list for all the spells in the PHB and EE. Unfortunately, as I'm a horribly infrequent poster on these boards, I lack the permissions to provide links here.

With the spells though, we ended up turning

STR- 13
DEX- 51
CON- 35
INT- 3
WIS- 39
CHA- 13

Into

STR- 23
DEX- 40
CON- 34
INT- 14
WIS- 23
CHA- 19

(you might notice there's 1 less spell total in the latter, and that's because Forcecage doesn't fit any criteria for any save, and was deemed most thematically suited to an Arcana Check.)

Overall, the new values still favored physicals over mentals in terms of the number of spells you could save against with each score. Regardless, our goal was not creating a perfect numerical balance, but rather to make it so every save had a clear and tangible benefit one might be remiss to opt out of(dump the stat), which I felt was accomplished.

When you put charms and fears on Charisma, it actually becomes more than a pointless fluff stat to non Cha-Casters in a party that already has a face.
When you put psychic damage and phantasms on Intelligence, you create a thematic weakness for the typical int-dumping barbarian (especially potent for bear totem barbarians who are only weak to psychic) and other simple minded characters who currently abuse Int as an extremely safe dump stat.
Meanwhile, Wisdom becomes less of the omni-mental save, but still has a wide variety of save or suck/die spells, and thus likewise remaining worthy of consideration.

If you're looking for a more numerical balance spanning the whole of the game, you'd have better luck with reverting to the 3 save system, or moving to a 4 save system that includes Might as a new save tied to Strength, then going through the Con saves for the multitude that really should have been Strength in the first place.

Kryx

2016-06-15, 07:17 AM

Without a full list it's very difficult to judge your system. It also only takes into account spells and not monsters (which are the more common threat for PCs).

I would be interested to see the full list, especially with monsters done. Otherwise it looks pretty much like what I generated before.

going through the Con saves for the multitude that really should have been Strength in the first place.
I went through the categories of Con saves earlier in this thread. None of those logically fit into Strength.

I'm still working on the system Easy_Lee and I looked at. I need to do some more math on a part, but will share it when I'm complete (probably a week).

Democratus

2016-06-15, 08:46 AM

I've always wanted to try a post-TPK game...

This can take many forms. Those familiar with Call of Cthulhu know that post-TPK is where many campaigns begin. Someone you know (or perhaps a distant relative) writes a letter to you explaining that they are investigating something and are about to go into danger. They ask that you continue their work should they fall.

After a TPK in D&D there is a lot that can be done. There is the possibility of afterlife adventuring. There is also the possibility of relatives or friends following in their footsteps or another adventuring group investigating what happened to the first.

I have even DM'd some games where I inform the players that we are running with pre-generated characters. I hand them out and (after one or two sessions) initiate a TPK. Then I inform the players that they can roll up their "real" characters for the game. This approach allows you to demonstrate the power of the BBEG or some other hazard before the campaign properly begins.

Kryx

2016-06-15, 08:50 AM

Please take this elsewhere. :)

Mr.Moron

2016-06-15, 09:25 AM

What if instead of being their own thing, saves were simply skill checks? For example most dodge-roll type "Dexterity Saves" would simply become "Acrobatics Saves", charm & other deception effects would be "Insight Saves" while illusions and the like are "Perception Saves" and so on.

This keeps the math exactly the same with the exception of expertise, with a few advantages:

1)There are more than 6 choices for save effects, meaning avoiding effects relies on more specific and flavorful abilities of the character.

2) It's consistent. Roll a high STR score and take Atheltics for your wizard no longer is he going toe-to-toe with the fighter in contests of strength, but getting blown away strong winds because uh saves are totally different and he isn't strong when it comes to being pushed around.

3) It reduces system complexity: There is now one fewer mechanic.

4) It you can customize it. Instead of "Here is your class, you get these saves" you have a menu of saves to choose from given your background & class. This also makes background a bit more prominent from a functional standpoint.

I can think of two cons:

1) If you want a "By the book, here are my houserules as the new RAW" approach. You'd have to deep-dive and assign every spell & effect a new save skill. This is mitigated if you're willing to take things as they come and maybe a bit flexible by letting different saves work depending on the circumstances.

2) For the dedicated CharOP person, there is now a core set of skills that are "Mandatory". That said... the CharOP crowd is kind of a special case and have already found bigger holes than this. I don't think for the average player who just kind of picks what sounds cool out of the gate would be too tormented by finding the perfect save set.

pwykersotz

2016-06-15, 10:07 AM

Easy_Lee

2016-06-15, 10:10 AM

Trouble with using skills for saves is that some classes and even races get more skills. Half-elf bards would be top tier.

A lot of individual saves can be reclassified, but my issue with doing so on a case by case basis is that the list of house rules grows too long. Unless I hand out a custom PHB, and I've thought about it, it's difficult to keep those rules straight.

Mr.Moron

2016-06-15, 10:41 AM

Trouble with using skills for saves is that some classes and even races get more skills. Half-elf bards would be top tier.

This is a CharOP issue specific to CharOP folks. The average player doesn't think about this and would probably give you quizzical look if you brought up the idea of "Tiers" perhaps save the occasional "You mean like in smash?" if you're drawing from a crowd well-versed in fighting games.

The concept of tiers, optimization and even balance seem to exist almost exclusively on the internet. Just about every 3.5 player I've met in real life had different opinions on which class was was the strongest. Usually either Monk, Ranger or Barbarian. Which we know doesn't align with the reality of that game.

I guess my point is that if a concern is "Hold up. If someone sits down and does an analysis of this they'll find a 'Correct' solution" is a very narrow problem. Unless the groups you run for consists entirely of the forum-savvy, it's just not going to be real problem in practice.

A lot of individual saves can be reclassified, but my issue with doing so on a case by case basis is that the list of house rules grows too long. Unless I hand out a custom PHB, and I've thought about it, it's difficult to keep those rules straight.

Well I did point this out as a Con, "My housrules as raw". There is no getting around it if you want a concrete list of which save does what.

However if you're willing to take a looser approach the house rule is about a paragraph long. Something along the lines of:

Saves: Characters now use skill checks instead of saves. When effect allows for a save, the GM will announce what the appropriate skill to mitigate the effect is. In general these saves will stick closely to the original concepts (Acrobatics to avoid fireballs, Insight to fight off mind-control), but there is no hard and fast rule and context or circumstance helps dictate which skills are appropriate. When faced with an effect if a player thinks they might be able to use another skill to mitigate the effect (such as a Religion check, to recognize an illusion of their god as false), they may propose this use. While most reasonable applications should work, the GM is the final arbiter of which skills avoid which effects

Obviously this is something of a style departure, but since we're already well into the realm of of house rules once we're talking about revamping saves it can't hurt to considering. In general a looser more "take it as comes" approach isn't entirely out of keeping with the 5e spirit as the whole. See the general open-ended nature of the skill system for example, controversial as it may be with some folks.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-15, 10:43 AM

Mr.Moron

2016-06-15, 10:55 AM

Mr. Moron, did you just dismiss the idea that things ought to be balanced? I don't know about you, but I've played in games where poor balance caused serious party problems. In 3.5e, this happened to me more than once.

Dismiss outright? No. Dismiss as being a primary concern or priority 1 issue? Certainly.

Things out to be generally level-ish enough so that there aren't things that are totally non-functional, or so busted one can easily and intuitively blunder into dominating things. However things on the order of "Hey. You can most easily get the best save set by using Half Elf Bard" are nowhere near approaching that level. Saves only play a role in some effects, and when they do they're just a better chance at a diminished effect. These aren't blanket immunities we're talking about.

All other things being equal if someone had the ability "Proficient in all saves" at no other cost, when everyone else used the standard system they would be stronger but not A#1-Super-Guy-MLG-360-NoScope *Airhorn**Airhorn**Aihorn* powerful, saves just aren't that influential. Things would continue to work and I'd wager the other players might not even notice unless they picked up his character sheet or it was otherwise brought up explicitly.

This level of balance issue (as naked as it might be), is really only of concern to people or groups who are doing close examinations of systems for the purposes of CharOP.

Kryx

2016-06-15, 11:05 AM

What if instead of being their own thing, saves were simply skill checks? For example most dodge-roll type "Dexterity Saves" would simply become "Acrobatics Saves", charm & other deception effects would be "Insight Saves" while illusions and the like are "Perception Saves" and so on.
This would result in moving the imbalance from saving throws to skills. Not only that, but it would also result in what Easy_Lee said: Massive changes that then have to be tracked and shown to the player.

To illustrate the different results I loosely categorized the result of the saving throws: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=2119828176

Some very powerful skills
athletics for prone, pull, push, and restrained
acrobatics for prone , pull, push
Arcana, religion, and nature could potentially be used to resist some spells (not sure which)
Investigation becomes the default illusion skill and confusion
Insight can be used to resist charms and similar spells

Now lets see some garbage skills for saves:
Animal Handling
Deception
History
Intimidation
Medicine
Perception
Performance
Persuasion
Stealth
Sleight of hand
Survival

Uncovered categories:

Damage (168) - How do you determine where these get split up? Most would go to acrobatics which is very problematic.
Concentration (make it its own skill again?)
Poisons (28+27)
Frightened (38)
Blind (23)
Paralyzed (14)
Stunned (13)
Psychic damage (12)
Reaction limitations (12)
Lower max hp (11)
Turn (11) - cleric turning
Attack limitations (11)
Curse (9)
Disease (8)
Incapacitated (7)
Sleep (7)
Unconscious (6)
Disadvantage (6)
Deaf (4)
Banish (4)
Die (3)

Not only do you have those issues, but also expertise, different skill amounts per class race, different backgrounds now become much more powerful than others, etc etc.

This idea creates more balance concerns while doing nothing to solve any of the existing balance concerns.

JumboWheat01

2016-06-15, 02:21 PM

I've always wanted to try a post-TPK game...

There really is an afterlife in D&D, and if the whole party is dead -- they're all out there somewhere in the Outer Planes.

Why not regroup and continue the mindless waves of combat and leveling -- fight with the Einherjar in Asgard or on the Battle Plains of Acheron. Or finally take the time to hunt down that devil that you just banished way back when.

Ooh... an after-life adventure... I need to sell this one to my DM. See what he thinks about it.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-15, 02:49 PM

Can't speak from anyone else, but I'm coming at this with two specific goals:

Saves should be balanced. All characters should be likely to have a primary stat corresponding to a proficient save, and saves which come up less often should generally be more dangerous (so saves which come up more often aren't automatically better).
The system should be quick to implement and easy to understand.

Hence my eventual advocacy of a tweaked Reflex / Fortitude / Will system, with the higher of strength and dexterity used for reflex. Everyone will have a high Str, Dex, or casting stat, and Con is important for everyone. As stated, the results are pretty good. Not perfect, as there are some nasty strength and dexterity saves out there, but pretty good.

Edit: for the above, I use half-proficiency to non-proficient saves, and make each class proficient in one save (some classes may choose which). That keeps everyone making approximately the same number of saves. Half-proficiency keeps save-or-suck spells from becoming OP or too deadly, and allows the resilient feat to apply to a single save without offering a numerically superior benefit to what it does in the base system.

Hooligan

2016-06-15, 03:45 PM

Can't speak from anyone else, but I'm coming at this with two specific goals:
[list=1]
Saves should be balanced.

Why is this essential? Just curious, not trying to derail this thread or stymie the laudable efforts of those proposing revisions.

Only that some might prefer the differential nastiness of certain powers/spells & equally prefer a differential susceptibility of beings to particular insults.

Perhaps I am in a minority, but I'd argue that the system is currently "balanced" as loosely defined several times throughout this thread, at least in some respects: Each class has proficiency in one common (wis, dex, con) & one uncommon save type.

And as I understand it, the current system certainly fulfills your second criterion, it is both easy to understand & implement.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-15, 04:21 PM

Why is this essential? Just curious, not trying to derail this thread or stymie the laudable efforts of those proposing revisions.

Only that some might prefer the differential nastiness of certain powers/spells & equally prefer a differential susceptibility of beings to particular insults.

Perhaps I am in a minority, but I'd argue that the system is currently "balanced" as loosely defined several times throughout this thread, at least in some respects: Each class has proficiency in one common (wis, dex, con) & one uncommon save type.

And as I understand it, the current system certainly fulfills your second criterion, it is both easy to understand & implement.

Balanced means fair. Fairness is important to me.

The issue with the current system is not everyone has a high Dex or Wis, and not everyone is proficient in Con saves. Thus, Dex and Wis are currently overvalued. Wizards, strong rogues, Eldritch Knights, and similar suffer.

Vogonjeltz

2016-06-16, 10:33 AM

At several points throughout the thread, yes.

I meant with each other, not just the internal breakdown of a single save type.

i.e. Most all Intelligence saving throws have severe consequences, whereas I'd Dexterity saving throws are merely damage or temporary status effects that can, in many cases, be removed immediately or via an action or partial action.

I was advising on how you can refine the Fix proposed to properly account for the importance of the saving throw, not merely the commonality of the saving throw.

Hooligan

2016-06-16, 10:39 AM

Balanced means fair. Fairness is important to me.

The issue with the current system is not everyone has a high Dex or Wis, and not everyone is proficient in Con saves. Thus, Dex and Wis are currently overvalued. Wizards, strong rogues, Eldritch Knights, and similar suffer.

I suppose what I meant is if most characters are similarly disadvantaged/susceptible, is that not fair in some fashion?

To your second point, I should wonder how people are assigning their stats in that case; when I play a wizard, after throwing my highest roll into int, I try to make sure dex &/or con are robust as well.

Kryx

2016-06-16, 10:39 AM

I meant with each other, not just the internal breakdown of a single save type.
Once again: all of this data is outlined on the sheet that I have shared in the OP and several times in this thread. Here is is again: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=0

If you wish to provide your insight then you should read the thread and the materials provided.

Easy_Lee

2016-06-16, 12:17 PM

I suppose what I meant is if most characters are similarly disadvantaged/susceptible, is that not fair in some fashion?

To your second point, I should wonder how people are assigning their stats in that case; when I play a wizard, after throwing my highest roll into int, I try to make sure dex &/or con are robust as well.

Most characters are, but there are outliers. The current system discourages specific kinds of builds, such as wizard into EK (should start EK for con save prof) since your wisdom won't be high. And of course, warlocks seldom have high wisdom, so they don't get much use out of having wisdom as a proficient save currently.

And yes, most wizards do pick up dexterity after INT. But that's a consequence of the save system and dexterity granting initiative and bonus AC. I don't think it's desirable for wizards to be encouraged so strongly towards Dex, as opposed to another stat.

Zalabim

2016-06-17, 02:50 AM

Most characters aren't going to automatically make/fail any save, so whether their high stats match their proficiency seems immaterial. +7 Wis saves and +2 Con saves and +1 Wis saves and +8 Con saves should be a fair trade.

Kryx

2016-06-17, 03:16 AM

Most characters aren't going to automatically make/fail any save
Under the 6 saves and no proficiency scaling on unproficient saves the chance for anything tertiary or beyond for many classes approaches 5% at max level. Typically 5-15% chance to succeed.

I'm putting together some math to show this.

pwykersotz

2016-06-17, 03:39 PM

Under the 6 saves and no proficiency scaling on unproficient saves the chance for anything tertiary or beyond for many classes approaches 5% at max level. Typically 5-15% chance to succeed.

I'm putting together some math to show this.

Huh, I thought that was self evident. 0 mod 0 proficiency is a +0 save. High level casters have a save of 19. Monsters can go higher. But hey, more Kryx math is good. :smallsmile:

Kryx

2016-06-17, 04:25 PM

More to come in the future, but here is an excerpt from the doc I'm putting together:

Scaling Problem
Saving throws scale really poorly. Tertiary saving throws start out with a 40% success chance, but end up having between a 5-15% success rate at level 20. Even if you don't use the rest of this document I would highly encourage you to use this version of the rules.

Scaling Solution
The solution is to have unproficient saving throws add half your proficiency bonus (rounded down) to saving throws. This results in the primary and secondary saves remaining the same with tertiary abilities and other abilities having an actual chance at success. The chances still aren't great (25-35% chance), but at least it's a significant chance now.

Given a standard melee, standard archer, and standard caster build vs the monster DC provided on DMG 274 they scale as such:

RAW
Melee
Primary save (Strength) scales from 65% to 65% success chance.

Secondary save (Constitution) scales from 65% to 55% success chance.

Tertiary ability score (Wisdom) scales from 50% to 20% success chance.

Other ability scores (Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma) scale from 40% to 10% success chance.

Ranged
Primary save (Dexterity) scales from 65% to 65% success chance.

Secondary save (Strength) scales from 50% to 40% success chance.

Tertiary ability scores (Constitution and Wisdom) scale from 50-55% to 20-25%% success chance.

Other ability score (Intelligence and Charisma) scale from 35-40% to 5-10% success chance.

Caster
Primary save (Intelligence) scales from 65% to 65% success chance.

Secondary save (Wisdom) scales from 50% to 40% success chance.

Tertiary ability score (Dexterity and Constitution) scale from 50-55% to 20-25% success chance.

Other ability scores (Strength and Charisma) scale from 40-45% to 5-10% success chance.

Half Proficiency bonus to unproficienct saving throws

Melee
Primary and Secondary saves are unchanged.

Tertiary ability score (Wisdom) scales from 50% to 35% success chance.

Other ability scores (Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma) scale from 40% to 25% success chance.

Ranged
Primary and Secondary saves are unchanged.

Tertiary ability scores (Constitution and Wisdom) scale from 50-55% to 35-40% success chance.

Other ability score (Intelligence and Charisma) scale from 35-40% to 20-25% success chance.

Caster
Primary and Secondary saves are unchanged.

Tertiary ability score (Dexterity and Constitution) scale from 50-55% to 35-40% success chance.

Other ability scores (Strength and Charisma) scale from 40-45% to 20-25% success chance.

Complete Numbers (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ZeFuwQVvb9DsMseUU8Pb0KxDU7sizhmebp-U7FuzLY/edit#gid=1759684098)

Paladin Aura of Protection adds between 5%-25% to each saving throw. This significantly changes the math and in the best case puts saving throws at a 90% success rate. That is too high. I would recommend replacing it with the following:
Aura of Protection
Starting at 6th level, whenever you or a friendly creature within 20 feet of you must make a saving throw, you can use your reaction to allow that creature to roll the saving throw with advantage.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1). When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.
At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 60 feet.