Monsters with Ex transformation ability (Bypass AMF?)

[Renen]

Planning on playing a Wildshape focused character in a game on the forums here. I am immune to being forcefully polymorphed, but I still lose to an AMF. Aside from wearing a shrunken tinfoil hat and shifting into burrowing Form and burrowing away when I hit an AMF, is there another way to bypass it?
Perhaps shifting into a monster that itself has some shape change ability as an Ex? I do get access to monster's Ex abilities from master of many forms (along with a crap load of forms). Any ideas?

[MisterKaws]

Even if you shift to a monster with an Ex shapeshifting ability, you yourself are still shifted by a non-Ex ability, so it gets cancelled nonetheless.

Also, the answer would be the Protean, but you can only shift to that with some really silly shenanigans. It does have the ability to copy a Colossus's AMF, which would probably nullify other AMFs(I'm a bit rusty in the AMF stacking rules).

[Renen]

Well, I don't think I'd get up-transformed.
If I'm Monster A and shift to Monster B using an Ex ability, even if I end up in AMF, I am either:
1) Monster B that got to be Monster B using an Ex ability and thus nothing happens to me
2) Monster A that got to be monster Monster B, and I stop being monster A because I used a Su ability to become A, but I'd stay B because there's no reason I should stop being B

Anyone know any other forms. Protean indeed sounds nice but I was hoping for something in the low teens of HD. Protean got abit too much :(

[MisterKaws]

Well, I don't think I'd get up-transformed.
If I'm Monster A and shift to Monster B using an Ex ability, even if I end up in AMF, I am either:
1) Monster B that got to be Monster B using an Ex ability and thus nothing happens to me
2) Monster A that got to be monster Monster B, and I stop being monster A because I used a Su ability to become A, but I'd stay B because there's no reason I should stop being B

Anyone know any other forms. Protean indeed sounds nice but I was hoping for something in the low teens of HD. Protean got abit too much :(

2) is what happens, but you also stop being B because you stopped being A, thus removing the Ex shapeshifting ability.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

For dead magic zones, check out Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood for devices, which are nonmagical versions of magic items. They require somewhat expensive fuel cells to power, but most fuel cells are rechargeable. So buy yourself a fuel cell and a device version of an eternal wand of the acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) spell. Each charge off the wand lasts three days. Just find yourself an oak tree someplace that is NOT in a dead magic zone, cast the (Ex) spell, and you're protected from dead magic zones for three full days.

AMFs are a bit trickier. You could pull the above trick with a device of a transformative spell, such as alter self. You could wild shape, followed by using the device to turn into a similar animal. Even if you're hit by an AMF, you'd still be under the effects of the alter self device, and the effects of the latter wouldn't be negated just because the wild shape it was based on was negated.

[Renen]

2) is what happens, but you also stop being B because you stopped being A, thus removing the Ex shapeshifting ability.

But I'm already not A. I mean... Once I use A's ex ability to become B, I'm not A anymore, and I'm now "transformed" via a non'magical ability. Further, even if I do lose A and A's ex ability, why would I lose Ex ability's effect? Most monster's transformation ability have no duration, so I assume they are instantaneous. So I shouldn't need to have the Ex ability to keep a Form it gave me.

Hmm... I do like the ravenloft idea... Though it does have some limitations.

[Flickerdart]

Most monster's transformation ability have no duration, so I assume they are instantaneous.
Why would you assume that?

[Renen]

Why would you assume that?

Well, usually things that have no listed duration mean they last forever, and things that last forever are usually instantaneous.

But even if I assume wrong, I see no reason why
1) AMF would be able to strip away my form A (seeing as I have Form B on top of it, and form B is from an Ex ability)
or
2) Stripping away form A and losing it's Ex transformative ability would make me de-transform

[Flickerdart]

Well, usually things that have no listed duration mean they last forever, and things that last forever are usually instantaneous.

But even if I assume wrong, I see no reason why
1) AMF would be able to strip away my form A (seeing as I have Form B on top of it, and form B is from an Ex ability)
or
2) Stripping away form A and losing it's Ex transformative ability would make me de-transform

You are neither Form A not Form B. You are Form 0, who has a magic effect (spell to become Form A) and a non-magic effect (Form A ability to become form B). When your magic effect is stripped away, you lose the ability to generate the non-magic effect.

[Renen]

But afaik most monster transformative effects do not make any mention that the effect is being "maintained" by the ability. It just says "you can transform..." and once you are transformed, why should losing the ability make you de-transform? (Unless the ability is actively maintaining the transformation, like some spells that actively keep you in flight for example)

[Flickerdart]

But afaik most monster transformative effects do not make any mention that the effect is being "maintained" by the ability. It just says "you can transform..." and once you are transformed, why should losing the ability make you de-transform? (Unless the ability is actively maintaining the transformation, like some spells that actively keep you in flight for example)
Please cite a single Ex shapeshifting ability with this wording.

[Red Fel]

Basically, you start as 0. You use magic to become A. You are only A, and only have access to A's abilities, as a result of magic. You then use A's abilities to become B.

When you enter the AMF or dead magic zone, the force that turned you into A, and gave you access to A's abilities, is removed. A can become B, but you are not A, nor are you A-made-B; you are 0 without magic. The A-made-B is stripped away because the A is stripped away. You were only able to become and remain B by dint of being A; you are not A, you're 0, and the fun times are over.

You're saying that there's nothing that says "When I lose ability X I can no longer benefit from it." I'm saying there's nothing that says "When I lose ability X I can still benefit from it." My interpretation is logical; it says that if I stand on a chair, and you remove the chair, I will fall. If you want to suggest something to the contrary, you have the burden of explaining the genesis of your ruling.

[Renen]

Considering we are in a thread where I am asking what monsters even HAVE ex shapeshifting your question is quite strange.

I was talking about Su transform abilities, that transform you. For example Song Dragon has "Alternate form" it says its "much like" polymorph self, which means its not exactly like it. It makes no mention of any duration or caster level to use for the duration, so it makes sense for it to last indefinitely. It makes mention of using the ability to transform back, so I figure that its an ability that changes you from dragon to human and from human to dragon. But its not a continuous effect.

[MisterKaws]

If an ability has unlimited time and is not stated to be Instantaneous, it is Permanent, which means it can be deactivated.