Slayer Build - He Tumbles, TWF, Flanks, Feints, and Crits! (Pathfinder + 3.X)

[Midnite]

Hey Everyone!

I would love to hear your thoughts on how effective this build would be in combat. Normally I'm pretty story and roleplay focused and don't try and overly optimize or prepare my characters but this guy is special to me and I would like him to be a bad ass.

It is a character I am very excited about. He is a reincarnated character of the character I played from ages 14-23. All the guys I grew up playing with are playing second generation characters of our original hero's and it will be very special. Originally this character was a rouge and now he is a Slayer in this life.


My DM allows:

Scimitars to be light weapons on duel welding.
Slayers/Rouges/Ninjas to repeat on their abilities choices (like combat feats and he adds Skill focus)
He also allows any 3.0-3.5 book for feats and such.



So here it is:

STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17

Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.

Human Feat:TWF

1st level: Double Slice

2nd level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Expertise

3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)

4th level: Skill Focus: Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)

5th level: Lethal Acrobatics

6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 1: Improved Two Weapon Feint

6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Quick Draw

7th level: ITWF

8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Combat Reflex

9th level: Improved Critical

10th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent -Combat Trick: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)

11th level: Critical Focus

12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style Feat 2 - Two Weapon Rend

12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ranger Combat Style Feat 3: GTWF

13th level: Bleeding Critical

14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick Feat: Acrobatic Strike

15th level: Improved Trip

16th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist

17th level: Double Hit (3.5 Miniatures Handbook)

18th level: Step Up

18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick Feat: Disorienting Maneuver

19th level: Hammer the Gap

20th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent - Weapon Focus

Please let me know your thoughts and thank you ahead of time. I just am curious if you think he will be effective or if you have a better feat or talent you think would make him better in combat. Thank you!

[TheIronGolem]

I would try to fit Slayer's Feint (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/slayer-s-feint-combat) in there somewhere (preferably early), especially if you're only using Bluff to feint and would like to free up skill points to go elsewhere.

EDIT: Also, I'd look for ways to perform a feint as a swift action. This is hard to do in Pathfinder but I believe 3.5 has a few ways to do it, though I don't know them off the top of my head. Otherwise feinting tends to be inefficient compared to simply taking the extra attack(s) you'd otherwise get (particularly since Slayers get a much slower Sneak Attack progression compared to Rogues).

[Midnite]

I would try to fit in there somewhere (preferably early), especially if you're only using Bluff to feint and would like to free up skill points to go elsewhere.

EDIT: Also, I'd look for ways to perform a feint as a swift action. This is hard to do in Pathfinder but I believe 3.5 has a few ways to do it, though I don't know them off the top of my head. Otherwise feinting tends to be inefficient compared to simply taking the extra attack(s) you'd otherwise get (particularly since Slayers get a much slower Sneak Attack progression compared to Rogues).

I like that Idea a lot. Any ideas where to put it? Maybe Slayers Feint in place of Quick Draw?

I think you are right about feinting as a swift action. I'll look into that. Only thing I could find was the Surprising Riposte feat from the underdark book but thats not really making it a free action or swift action. If you find something you would be my new hero! :)

Thank you so much for your reply.

[Seppo87]

Remove Hammer the Gap, Critical Focus and Bleeding Critical.

Add Staggering Strike, Knowledge Devotion and Robilar's Gambit

[Sayt]

Unfortunately, ranger style feat 1 improved tw feint is illegal, as the ranger combat style talent had to be taken a second time to get 6th level RCFs, which is a shame in this instance as two weapon feint is... barely better than improved feint at the level it's used at.

[Florian]

This build will probably perform worse than a regular TWF Fighter would.
When going for RCS on a Slayer, keep in mind that you must chose a specific style and then take it as 2nd, 6th and 10th level Slayer Talent.

Slayers are usually extremely good at Intimidate, so Shatter Defenses will be the better option than feinting. Surprise Maneuver and either Kitsune Style or Cloak and Dagger Style will make a great pairing on a Slayer when going all-out STR (Yes, high DEX is actually not needed. You get into the TWF chain via RCS and ignore the whole prereqs)

Concerning the Skill Focus feats: Keep in mind that the Focused Study Human variant trades the one bonus feat at 1st for three for three Skill Focus feats at 1st, 8th and 16th.

A note on your weapon choice: Keep in mind that Precision Damage is not multiplied on a crit. Unless you go high-STR, you don´t actually get much mileage out of twin Scimitars. Falcata might actually be the better choice on a Slayer.

[Midnite]

Remove Hammer the Gap, Critical Focus and Bleeding Critical.

Add Staggering Strike, Knowledge Devotion and Robilar's Gambit

I love staggering strike I will totally add that. Thank you. I like knowledge devotion too but I don't think my DM would go for that, and Robilar's Gambit is outlawed in my gaming group. Someone used it and was just too ****ing powerful with it, but it was a great suggestion. Thanks for your reply. So remove the hammer the gap and put in staggering strike?

[Midnite]

Unfortunately, ranger style feat 1 improved tw feint is illegal, as the ranger combat style talent had to be taken a second time to get 6th level RCFs, which is a shame in this instance as two weapon feint is... barely better than improved feint at the level it's used at.

Why is it illegal? Because I didn't take it at second level? No where in Slayer does it say I have to take them at the 2nd, 6th, and 10th level as you do in Ranger. And the only perquisite for Improved TW Feint is that I must be 6th level. I don't see why, even if my DM was a stickler for the rules, that is a violation of the rules? Maybe I'm missing something, I could be totally wrong, I guess I just don't see it.

[Midnite]

This build will probably perform worse than a regular TWF Fighter would.
When going for RCS on a Slayer, keep in mind that you must chose a specific style and then take it as 2nd, 6th and 10th level Slayer Talent.

Slayers are usually extremely good at Intimidate, so Shatter Defenses will be the better option than feinting. Surprise Maneuver and either Kitsune Style or Cloak and Dagger Style will make a great pairing on a Slayer when going all-out STR (Yes, high DEX is actually not needed. You get into the TWF chain via RCS and ignore the whole prereqs)

Concerning the Skill Focus feats: Keep in mind that the Focused Study Human variant trades the one bonus feat at 1st for three for three Skill Focus feats at 1st, 8th and 16th.

A note on your weapon choice: Keep in mind that Precision Damage is not multiplied on a crit. Unless you go high-STR, you don´t actually get much mileage out of twin Scimitars. Falcata might actually be the better choice on a Slayer.

Oh really? Can you explain why it would perform worse than a regular two weapon fighter? I don't see what makes it so bad? I have a high strength and will likely hit more often with all my off handed attacks which will have a high crit range and when I crit my sneak attacks will do stuff... or am I missing something?

And where does it say that I have to take the style, I agree I must pick one, at 2nd, 6th, and 8th. I don't see that in rules at all?

Surprise Maneuver I have to be an Investigator for right so I can't take that. I like Kitsune Style but that goes down the dirty trick line then. Improve TW Feint actually does the same thing. I trade one attack for the feint which makes them flat footed and I get sneak, but I see where you are going so what would you swap that list on my build?

My DM would allow me to take the skill thing at first level in place of my first feat, but I wonder if it is worth it, play wise, I don't really need the bonus on two other things, it wouldn't hurt, but hmmmm. Something to think about.

As the weapon go I have to go with Scimitar for story reasons. It has to be african/Egyptian/ esc for the story. Also, although my precision damage doesn't multiply on a crit with telling blow it happens again. So it isn't a bad mix and even if I wouldn't normally do sneak attack damage on my target it is more likely with a high crit weapon. Plus with my high strength it is still nice.

[Florian]

It´s right there in the basic rules for the class:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the 1st-level feat choices for that style. He can choose feats from his chosen combat style, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list.

That is very strict on what style to chose and when to substitute a Talent for RCS.

For Surprise Maneuver, the prereq is either Sneak Attack or Studied Strike. It works with both.

The feat "Sneaking Critical" (Dirty Tactics Toolbox) would allow you to add Crit Mod x SA dice to a weapon.

And no, Scimitars have nothing to do with Africa/Egypt. That would mostly be the Khopesh or its "reverse" version, the Falcate. Lucky you, in that case, as when your GM allows that for story reason, grab it and never look back.

Edit: As for you other question, a dedicated TWF/Crit Seeker Fighter can generate an absurd amount of conditions along with his regular attacks, often disabling foes long before whittling down hp.

[Midnite]

It´s right there in the basic rules for the class:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the 1st-level feat choices for that style. He can choose feats from his chosen combat style, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the style's feat list.

That is very strict on what style to chose and when to substitute a Talent for RCS.

For Surprise Maneuver, the prereq is either Sneak Attack or Studied Strike. It works with both.

The feat "Sneaking Critical" (Dirty Tactics Toolbox) would allow you to add Crit Mod x SA dice to a weapon.

And no, Scimitars have nothing to do with Africa/Egypt. That would mostly be the Khopesh or its "reverse" version, the Falcate. Lucky you, in that case, as when your GM allows that for story reason, grab it and never look back.

Edit: As for you other question, a dedicated TWF/Crit Seeker Fighter can generate an absurd amount of conditions along with his regular attacks, often disabling foes long before whittling down hp.

Thank you for the breakdown on the Ranger Combat Feats, I don't know how I missed it, maybe it's because I'm using SRD or just missed it out of being to quick but my bad. Hmmm I'll have to think how it changes things, but I still think it is useful in taking ITW Feint for bypassing all the preqs.

I read the surprise maneuver wrong as well, having a bad morning I guess, sorry about that. Then I like that too. Great suggestion.

Well, Scimitars originated in the middle east and were seen all over there. Egypt is in the middle east and it was historically a weapon made and used there as well, granted it doesn't touch to much on Africa but it was an Egyptian used weapon from 12BC on so pretty much Egyptian as far as I can tell.

Now the Khopesh would work but it isn't a type of style I like and is more of an axe, which is was derived from, so it doesn't fit the style, but I give you the geographic region for sure.

Now the Falcata is a pre roman sword and is believed to come from the region that is now Spain and Portugal. It is even thought that is was introduced by the celts of all people so it really doesn't fit the theme that way and my DM is a stickler for the story stuff if easy on the rules sometimes.

[Florian]

It´ll all depend on how historically accurate you want that setting to be.
The Khopesh and Falcata are foot soldiers weapons, the scimitar first came up with the osmanian empire (modern-day turkey, no relations to the african continent) with the rise of cavalry and was later developed into the saber.

[Midnite]

It´ll all depend on how historically accurate you want that setting to be.
The Khopesh and Falcata are foot soldiers weapons, the scimitar first came up with the osmanian empire (modern-day turkey, no relations to the african continent) with the rise of cavalry and was later developed into the saber.

Thanks for all your help man. I really do Appreciate it. I'd actually be interested in hearing what you have to say after I retool him a little bit and change some stuff around. I'll message you or something if you don't mind.

[Florian]

Thanks for all your help man. I really do Appreciate it. I'd actually be interested in hearing what you have to say after I retool him a little bit and change some stuff around. I'll message you or something if you don't mind.

Do it here. And if you don´t mind, posts a bit more about the setting/campaign the character is going to get used in.

[Seppo87]

Falcata is an european sword, but its shape is resemblant of other weapons like the turkish Yataghan or some mexican machete etc.

You can always refluff and reskin.

Find an historical sword you like and if it's not statted give it the stats of a similar one.

[Midnite]

Do it here. And if you don´t mind, posts a bit more about the setting/campaign the character is going to get used in.

You got it man. I can totally post more about the campaign and setting. I didn't think anyone would care about that to be honest. Excited to share with you. Thanks again man.

[Midnite]

Falcata is an european sword, but its shape is resemblant of other weapons like the turkish Yataghan or some mexican machete etc.

You can always refluff and reskin.

Find an historical sword you like and if it's not statted give it the stats of a similar one.

Yeah, you're totally right. I have a very chill and flexible DM as you can see with some of the stuff he allows, but he is kinda a history and geography buff and he gets stuck on some stuff. Maybe I can find something he likes that works a bit better.

Thank you!

[Florian]

Falcata is an european sword, but its shape is resemblant of other weapons like the turkish Yataghan or some mexican machete etc.

Anyway, there were saber-like blades in egypt, i.e.the Kilij

You can always refluff and reskin.

Not in the mood to go too deep into it right now, but "weighted blade" as a whole are pretty effective melee weapons, "curved blades" a cavalry thing and "dress swords" a nobility thing showing of skill.
D&D/PF as a whole is way of the facts on this.


You got it man. I can totally post more about the campaign and setting. I didn't think anyone would care about that to be honest. Excited to share with you. Thanks again man.

You´re into this hobby, you can always learn. Any shared story is always an opportunity to improve, so nothing against that. (Unless you think you´re perfect)

[Formless Entity]

Not in the mood to go too deep into it right now, but "weighted blade" as a whole are pretty effective melee weapons, "curved blades" a cavalry thing and "dress swords" a nobility thing showing of skill.
D&D/PF as a whole is way of the facts on this.



You´re into this hobby, you can always learn. Any shared story is always an opportunity to improve, so nothing against that. (Unless you think you´re perfect)

I would disagree, sabers where very effective ground weapons and can match most straight swords.

[Midnite]

UPDATE:

So I messed with some stuff and moved it around and stripped a lot of things down and here we have an updated version based on your thoughts, I kept feint though I like it, but I feel like I listened. I'll add some story stuff tonight I don't have time right now but I know some of you were interested so I will totally do it sometime tonight or tomorrow morning. Thanks ahead of time!

Anyway your thoughts:

So here it is:

STR: 20
DEX: 18
Con:18
INT:16
WIS:12
CHA:17

Favored Class is Slayer: Humans can chose 1/6 a Slayer ability to get one full one every 6th level.

Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Telling Blow (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Ninja Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Iron Will
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Steadfast Personality
18th level: Slayer Talent:
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability:
19th level: Great Iron Will
20th level: Slayer Talent:

[Florian]

Looks good. This will have no problem outfighting any regular enemy. A bit over-focused towards the end and could handle some relic-mastery feats there, instead of going even deeper into it.

[Midnite]

Looks good. This will have no problem outfighting any regular enemy. A bit over-focused towards the end and could handle some relic-mastery feats there, instead of going even deeper into it.

Awesome I'm glad that you think it will be effective. Over-focused? On what? The Will save thing? I googled Relic-mastery and all I got was the alternative class for fighter. I couldn't find any feats that link to it. What are those?

Thanks again man!

[Sayt]

The first thing that comes to mind is that by the time you pick up Iron Will you could easily affordMind-Biuttressing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/mind-buttressing) armour, sdo I'd grab Improved Initiative instead, honestly.

Also, seeing as you're likely to be two weapon fighting with high crit threat weapon, I highly recommend picking up Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) If your party has another melee combatant.

The relic mastery feats are set of feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-mastery-feats) from Weapon Master's handbook which give you per day SLAs based on the schools of magic items you have.

[Midnite]

The first thing that comes to mind is that by the time you pick up Iron Will you could easily affordMind-Biuttressing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-armor/magic-armor-and-shield-special-abilities/mind-buttressing) armour, sdo I'd grab Improved Initiative instead, honestly.

Also, seeing as you're likely to be two weapon fighting with high crit threat weapon, I highly recommend picking up Outflank (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) If your party has another melee combatant.

The relic mastery feats are set of feats (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-mastery-feats) from Weapon Master's handbook which give you per day SLAs based on the schools of magic items you have.

I will hold off on teamwork feats until I know I can take them with my party members so vexing flanker kinda feels that roll now. I have a new build I'm thinking about below so you can check out how that changes the iron will thing there.

Oh I just found those, those are cool I don't know if they are cool with my DM so right now I will keep the build clean of them. Great ideas though.

Here is a new try at it:
Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Combat Reflexes
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Lethal Acrobatics
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak

Let me know what you think

[Florian]

Should work pretty well, I´d say.

[Midnite]

Should work pretty well, I´d say.

Human Feat:TWF
1st level: Extra Rogue Talent: Lethal Acrobatics
2nd level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 1 - Double Slice
3rd level: Iron Will
4th level: Slayer Talent: Skill Focus - Acrobatics (DM Allows Skill Focus as Slayer Talent)
5th level: Combat Reflexes
6th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 2: Improved Two Weapon Feint
6th Level: Slayer favored Class Ability: Combat Trick: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
7th level: Vexing Flanker (3.5 Players Handbook 2)
8th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Talent: Underhanded Trick (See if I can Take Improved Iron Will)
9th level: Expert Tactician (Complete Adventurer’s Guide 3.5)
10th level: Slayer Talent: Opportunist
11th level: Double Hit (Miniatures Handbook 3.5)
12th level: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style (Faithful) Feat 3 - Two Weapon Rend
12th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Ninja Advanced Trick - Feat: GTWF
13th level:Greater Dirty Trick (See if I can take house roll Greater Iron Will)
14th level: Slayer Talent: Rogue Advanced Trick - Feat: Disorienting Maneuver
15th level: Steadfast Personality
16th level: Slayer Talent: Defensive Study
17th level:Accomplished Sneak Attacker
18th level: Slayer Talent: Weapon Training (Scimitar)
18th level: Slayer Favored Class Ability: Unchained Rogue Talent: Crippling Sneak
19th level: Extra Rogue Talent: Powerful Sneak
20th level: Slayer Talent: Advanced Rogue Talent: Deadly Sneak

Okay this one. I think this might be the one.