Tips for a gnome rogue MC

[Dalebert]

I just like gnomes and I've never seen a gnome rogue. Everyone seems to play halflings. I'm a fan of tricksters and the int boost goes well with that. I'm planning a dip of at least one level of wizard for 1st level rituals including a familiar which is great for a rogue, but possibly more, maybe even to the point of getting Haste. I also haven't ruled out a fighter dip, possibly as deep as 5 (in which case I prolly won't dip as deep with wizard). The high level rogue stuff doesn't appeal that much other than more sneak attack dmg. What do you think? What school of magic if I go 2 or more as wizard? What feats, if any? Gnomes are slow so sharpshooter or crossbow expert come to mind but levels in fighter mean I could have better armor combined with Shield spell so maybe I could afford to melee. I could also learn longstrider to help with movement.

[gfishfunk]

My recommendation:

- For Arcane Trickster do not bother dipping Wizard just for ritual casting - instead, grab the ritual casting feat at level 4.
- I would either go straight Arcane Trickster or go 4 (to 6) into Champion Fighter. Probably just 4.

[Dalebert]

For Arcane Trickster do not bother dipping Wizard just for ritual casting - instead, grab the ritual casting feat at level 4.

That wouldn't be the only reason but it's big. It also gets me a substantial boost on the spell slot progression which is pretty slow otherwise, access to spells other than just two schools plus more total known spells, and arcane recovery. To get all that AND a free feat (sort of, at least for the things I really want) is pretty big for one level dip. Spells like Shield and Absorb Elements are game-changers. That way I'd still get a feat or ASI at level 5 that I don't have to blow on ritual casting.


I would either go straight Arcane Trickster or go 4 (to 6) into Champion Fighter. Probably just 4.

Really? You'd stop just short of extra attack?

[Waffle_Iron]

I've run a couple of AT / wizards, actually. Really, if you're only dipping 2 levels, it's not super important which school you follow. A forum favorite is divination for the dice manipulation, or abjuration for the THP.

My favorite was the conjurer, however. Conjuring allowed me to travel light and still always have the right tool at hand. The dim light could be useful sometimes, and when not, it could be worked around.

[gfishfunk]

Ack. I forgot that Rogue does not already get the automatic extra attack at level 5, which is why I threw that in - in order to avoid redundancy.

So....

Arcane Trickster Rogue 10 (gets the extra ASI at level 10 and decent sneak attack)
Champion Fighter: lvl 6: 2 ASI, better crits, second attack
Illusion Wizard: lvl 4: for spells

[Specter]

If you want Fighter, I'd go Arcane Trickster 14/Eldritch Knight 6. You won't get high-level spells, but you can essentially play a mini-Wizard with all the Rogue/Fighter goodness. 9 levels of AT are mandatory for Magical Ambush, and 3 levels of EK too (but five give you Extra Attack, which is also good). Plus, lots of ASI's.

[Easy_Lee]

Pure AT Forrest Gnome is my preference, and I have played such a character (with a Cajun accent, no less). That said, I believe the conjuration wizard school offers the most benefit to this character, due to tools. However, the part I would have to ask your DM is whether a conjured tool disappears, as normal, when held by your Mage Hand instead of your Own Hand.

[Dalebert]

Pure AT Forrest Gnome is my preference, and I have played such a character (with a Cajun accent, no less). That said, I believe the conjuration wizard school offers the most benefit to this character, due to tools. However, the part I would have to ask your DM is whether a conjured tool disappears, as normal, when held by your Mage Hand instead of your Own Hand.

There's nothing about the power that says you have to continue holding it. It vanishes after an hour, if it's damaged, or if you make something else with it.

That power seems really fun but feels like mostly fluff.

[Easy_Lee]

There's nothing about the power that says you have to continue holding it. It vanishes after an hour, if it's damaged, or if you make something else with it.

That power seems really fun but feels like mostly fluff.

Ah, my mistake. Confused it with something else.

Regarding its usefulness, it becomes much stronger by adding the feat Keen Mind, specifically the ability to accurately recall anything you've seen in the past month. Maps, keys, your spellbook...you get the idea.

[bid]

If you can bladesinger as gnome, that'd give you your second attack on the cheap.

[Rhynear]

If you can bladesinger as gnome, that'd give you your second attack on the cheap.

Wanted to second this.

Either go Arcane Trickster 10/Bladesinger 6/Fighter 4, getting you third level spells, an extra attack and a fighter archetype, or Arcane Trickster 10/Bladesinger 8/Fighter 2, for fourth level spells but no fighter archetype, or Arcane Trickster 10/Bladesinger 4/Fighter 6 for an extra ASI, but only second level spells.

[R.Shackleford]

Rogues don't really work well with haste. Their damage boost is only 1/turn so that extra attack gives you +1d4+5 to 1d8+5 which isn't worth the spell slot.

I believe you get free picks of spells eventually on the AT, use one of those on find familiar or grab it via feat.

[bid]

Rogues don't really work well with haste. Their damage boost is only 1/turn so that extra attack gives you +1d4+5 to 1d8+5 which isn't worth the spell slot.
Erm, ready action?

[R.Shackleford]

Erm, ready action?

Yeah have fun pulling that off more than once in a single combat. Even a nice DM is going to play their monsters half way smart (unless the monsters are unintelligent) and that will work once in a single combat.

People really overestimate the power of the ready action and act like creatures can't react to what's going on in front of them.

[tieren]

If you want to use archery anyway consider a ranger 5 dip for the extra attack, skill, archery fighting style, horde breaker/colossus slayer, etc... Will give you better spell progression on the MC table than EK too.

maybe rogue 14/wiz 1/ranger 5

[Dalebert]

Holy crap. How did I not consider Bladesinger? This changes everything (for the better). Or not. Depends on whether I'm willing to switch races.


Yeah have fun pulling that off more than once in a single combat.

I'm not seeing it. You could say the same thing about sneak attack. How much are they going to bend over backwards to prevent a situation that allows sneak attack whether it's once per round or twice per round (due to readied action)? Presumably you're just readying your action for some action of the next player in the turn order. What's a creature going to do in between that time to prevent it?

[R.Shackleford]

Holy crap. How did I not consider Bladesinger? This changes everything (for the better). Or not. Depends on whether I'm willing to switch races.



I'm not seeing it. You could say the same thing about sneak attack. How much are they going to bend over backwards to prevent a situation that allows sneak attack whether it's once per round or twice per round (due to readied action)? Presumably you're just readying your action for some action of the next player in the turn order. What's a creature going to do in between that time to prevent it?

The ready action triggers off a specific action of an enemy. Once the enemy sees that you are fighting relatively (say whenever an enemy comes within 5' of the rogue) they are going to stop doing that and find another way to hurt the rogue.

Unless you think all monsters should just keep doing the same thing over and over and over to let the Rogue keep getting off their attacks... I emmean, that is a play style I guess... But not a very immersive one (except for unintelligent creatures I guess). Even animals would think twice and try to find a new way of attacking, they may not able to, but animals like wolves would at least fall back and try to find an opening.

This is the same thing with using Riposte on the rogue/fighter. After the first, maybe second, riposte if an intelligent creature doesn't get what's going on then the DM has three pairs of kids gloves that they need to take off.

If the party was fighting a creature that was using the ready action (move iwithin 5', I attack) to attack , you can't tell me you wouldn't try to find a way work around it. Either by using ranged weapons, reach weapons, ranged spells, or maybe send the hired help to take the attack for you.

The ready action is great but assuming it works round to round is just unrealistic unless you have a super lenient DM.

[Easy_Lee]

The ready action triggers off a specific action of an enemy. Once the enemy sees that you are fighting relatively (say whenever an enemy comes within 5' of the rogue) they are going to stop doing that and find another way to hurt the rogue.

That depends on your DM. To me, having monsters react to player's readied actions is very close to metagaming, and should require an insight check by the monster at a minimum.

Example: I'm sitting across the table from you. As soon as you turn your head, I'm going to chuck a biscuit at you. It's gonna be great. You look me in the eyes and notice I may be up to something. Do you see how close my hand is to my biscuit? Do you wait it out to see what I do? Or did you just miss the look altogether and turn around unknowingly?

Do you think that's any different in a combat situation? What if I'm not staring at you suspiciously? What if I don't look like I'm about to do what I'm actually planning? There's no way you would know if I sell it, especially in the heat of battle.

That's an insight check. And that's the minimum any monster should have to do to respond correctly to a readied action in the manner you've discussed.

[R.Shackleford]

That depends on your DM. To me, having monsters react to player's readied actions is very close to metagaming, and should require an insight check by the monster at a minimum.

Example: I'm sitting across the table from you. As soon as you turn your head, I'm going to chuck a biscuit at you. It's gonna be great. You look me in the eyes and notice I may be up to something. Do you see how close my hand is to my biscuit? Do you wait it out to see what I do? Or did you just miss the look altogether and turn around unknowingly?

Do you think that's any different in a combat situation? What if I'm not staring at you suspiciously? What if I don't look like I'm about to do what I'm actually planning? There's no way you would know if I sell it, especially in the heat of battle.

That's an insight check. And that's the minimum any monster should have to do to respond correctly to a readied action in the manner you've discussed.

It's metagamimg for monsters to react to the world around them?

If you see someone waiting to stab you, in such a way they are doing nothing else in battle but waiting for you, are you going to walk up to them? Maybe once because you think you can hit them first but after you find out how fast they are? Nope.

It's metagamimg to allow players to continuously use their ready actions over and over just because you know they are using the *ready* action and don't want them to waste said action.

[RulesJD]

*snip*

This is the same thing with using Riposte on the rogue/fighter. After the first, maybe second, riposte if an intelligent creature doesn't get what's going on then the DM has three pairs of kids gloves that they need to take off.

*snip*

That's why you take the Sentinel feat as well. Attack the Rogue? Risk a Riposte. Attack his friend? Risk a Sentinel. Run away? Trigger Booming Blade + Sentinel Opp attack.

Glory be to the Rogue/Fighter.

[Dalebert]

The ready action triggers off a specific action of an enemy.

Where are you getting that? The trigger can be just about anything. I just re-read it when I saw this comment. There are a couple examples given that both involve enemy actions but those are just examples.


First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it. Examples include “If the cultist steps on the trapdoor, I’ll pull the lever that opens it,” and “If the goblin steps next to me, I move away.”

I guess it depends on the context and the tactic you're using. For instance, if I took crossbow expert and readied an action to fire at the first sneak attack eligible enemy when the next ally moves or takes an action. All that takes is for ANY enemy to be within 5 ft of an ally (or any threatening creature). Sneak attack isn't always available, of course, but there will be plenty of times when it's nigh impossible for the enemy to make it impossible to get. Maybe I don't get my ideal target but if I get an extra sneak attack on any enemy in a round, it's still pretty handy.

Also, most combats only last about 3 rounds. Even if there's something they can do about it, it's going to be very handy for a good chunk of the combat realistically. Your point is not completely irrelevant but it feels like an exaggeration. With the right planning, using readied actions with Haste and sneak attack is very viable.

[Easy_Lee]

It's metagamimg for monsters to react to the world around them?

If you see someone waiting to stab you, in such a way they are doing nothing else in battle but waiting for you, are you going to walk up to them? Maybe once because you think you can hit them first but after you find out how fast they are? Nope.

It's metagamimg to allow players to continuously use their ready actions over and over just because you know they are using the *ready* action and don't want them to waste said action.

Oh, we're playing that game? Alright, bud. I turn away from the monster. I conceal my weapon. I look at someone else. I'm not even paying attention to him. As a free action, I say, "we should run."

And now I ready my action to attack him.

Now what? You gonna metagame that? I didn't know I was dealing with a psychic.

Using game mechanics intelligently is not metagaming Some people think it's metagaming if anyone ever gets a slight advantage. We call them scrubs, who get mad if anyone adopts a superior strategy to theirs.

Metagaming, in D&D, means using outside information that your character has no way to know. Having a strategy meeting in the middle of an ambush, knowing exactly what save the giant eye you've never seen before is weak to, reading ahead in the pre-made adventure you're playing, those things are metagaming. Playing your class well is not metagaming.

[Blue Lantern]

Oh, we're playing that game? Alright, bud. I turn away from the monster. I conceal my weapon. I look at someone else. I'm not even paying attention to him. As a free action, I say, "we should run."

And now I ready my action to attack him.

Now what? You gonna metagame that? I didn't know I was dealing with a psychic.

Any enemy with more than 7 INT will not fall for such a childish ruse

[Easy_Lee]

Any enemy with more than 7 INT will not fall for such a childish ruse

In the middle of combat? No insight check? Who the hell are your players fighting?

This is exactly what people are talking about when they complain of metagaming DMs. When the monsters not only can tell that you're up to something, but also know exactly what, in the heat of combat, then readied actions and complex strategy, the kinds of things that make d&d interesting, are worthless. Suddenly, the best strategy is to use the most broken strategies.

Be glad you don't have me as a player in your game. In these situations, I roll a wizard or druid and destroy the campaign. I'd like to see you metagame what happens when a house fly flies down the tarrasque's throat and turns into an earth elemental. I'd love to see alarms go off when a wizard maintains invisibility on a monk and the two hustle through the dungeon, ignoring everything. You see, this metagaming thing is a two-way street.

Or, we could be mature, and stop trying to ruin each other's plans. D&D, and tabletop gaming in general, is supposed to be about fun. It's not supposed to be about pushing up our glasses and explaining, "well, actually, what you're doing won't work because X, and obviously only a fool would Y because Z..."

Back on topic, AT + Bladesinger is a good combo. I'm sure you'll have fun with it, OP.

[JellyPooga]

I just like gnomes and I've never seen a gnome rogue.

What do you want out of the Rogue Class? If it's just the chicanery of "being a trickster", then 6 levels gets you all the Expertise you'll need and a few "tricks" up your sleeve, like Uncanny Dodge and Sneak Attack. From the sound of your OP, you want a Wizard/Fighter with some Roguishness thrown in.

Arcane Trickster 6/Wizard 14 gets you a lot more, late-game, if you're looking for versatility and power and will still feel very much like a Rogue.

Swashbuckler 9/Fighter 11 is the other end of the spectrum, being much more one-trick-pony, but you're hella good at that trick and still feels very Roguish.

What level are you starting at? The journey's more important than the destination, as they say.

[R.Shackleford]

Oh, we're playing that game? Alright, bud. I turn away from the monster. I conceal my weapon. I look at someone else. I'm not even paying attention to him. As a free action, I say, "we should run."

And now I ready my action to attack him.

Now what? You gonna metagame that? I didn't know I was dealing with a psychic.

Using game mechanics intelligently is not metagaming Some people think it's metagaming if anyone ever gets a slight advantage. We call them scrubs, who get mad if anyone adopts a superior strategy to theirs.

Metagaming, in D&D, means using outside information that your character has no way to know. Having a strategy meeting in the middle of an ambush, knowing exactly what save the giant eye you've never seen before is weak to, reading ahead in the pre-made adventure you're playing, those things are metagaming. Playing your class well is not metagaming.

You are making it where all enemies have 3 or 4 int or else the DM is metagamimg.

Please get out of the white room a little more and actually play D&D. Play monsters, who aren't unintelligent, more realistically for once and you will have a more immersive game.

[Easy_Lee]

You are making it where all enemies have 3 or 4 int or else the DM is metagamimg.

Please get out of the white room a little more and actually play D&D. Play monsters, who aren't unintelligent, more realistically for once and you will have a more immersive game.

Let's set aside the implicit insult you just leveled, the idea that I don't actually play. I'll ignore that.

What I'm used to: monsters that behave like murderhobo PCs with a "kill everything" mentality. This is what you see from younger players and DMs.
What I see from better DMs, and try to do myself: monsters that behave the way you'd expect them to, including most humans not really wanting to fight if they can help it.
What I'm seeing in this thread: metagamers.

Consider, for a moment, that feints are totally a thing in combat. I can make someone think I'm going to do one thing, while I'm actually going to do another. Consider that every fighting style ever includes feints and deceptive moves, or moves too fast to properly react to when they're executed properly. Now consider that the PCs are assumed to be trained combatants. And consider that not every action they might take is even an attack.

Do you honestly think you, even with your bird's eye PoV and metagame knowledge, could predict exactly what the PCs are planning to do if they didn't tell you? If you do, you're wrong. That's not an argument, it's a fact.

If you want monsters to predict player behavior, that's an insight check. Period. We could go back and forth on this all day, but I promise you I would win this debate. As such, I'm not going to engage in this derailment further. If you want to continue to debate, I personally suggest you make a separate thread, as what we're discussing is only tangentially related to MC gnome rogues.

[Waffle_Iron]

In the middle of combat? No insight check? Who the hell are your players fighting?

This is exactly what people are talking about when they complain of metagaming DMs.

Yep.

When any clever action is penalized, the players learn to play dumb.

I attack.
I attack.
I move, I attack.

In my game, if you try something clever, you probably get a bonus, not a penalty.

We play "cinematic" combat as war.

[famousringo]

I don't recommend Sharpshooter for rogues. You only get one attack to get the bonus damage, and landing Sneak Attack reliably every round is more important than a +10. If you want a ranged build, get an extra attack from multiclass or Crossbow Expert first so you can land your accurate Sneak Attack before you go for power shots.

Personally, if you have access to SCAG, the in-and-out shenanigans you can pull with Booming Blade and Cunning Action sound like a ton of fun to me. Who cares how slow gnomes are if your enemy is terrified to move? Consider the Mobility feat to make up the speed gap and recover your bonus action either for Dashes or Legerdemain.

[Blue Lantern]

The PC can be tactical geniuses and everything is fine.
An NPC does a smart move and everybody loses their mind.

[Dalebert]

If you want to continue to debate, I personally suggest you make a separate thread, as what we're discussing is only tangentially related to MC gnome rogues.

Thank you for that. It really is quite off-topic but I might remain interested in joining the discussion in a separate thread.

[Wadeford]

My last game I played was a rogue gnome and went down the thief route. It was definately the most fun I've had playing a character especially the second story work which meant I spent half my time climbing around and hiding before I went on a stealing spree...although I did end up annoying everyone, which got me killed in the end. The theives reflexes and fast hands also gave me plenty of bonus actions as well which meant I could do so much more. Only downside was I couldnt jump very far even with my second story work even if it did give me a free action at the begining of a fight or if I got knock to the floor