An Enemy Spy Reads The Wheel of Time II: Randy's Horny Hunt [Archive]

An Enemy Spy

2016-06-13, 06:14 PM

This here's the continuation of my readthrough of The Wheel of Time. I am currently on Book 2: The Great Hunt. If you're new here, refer to the table of contents below.

Prologue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19587913&postcount=3)
Chapter 1: An Empty Road (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19589862&postcount=11)
Chapter 2: Strangers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19597466&postcount=22)
Chapter 3: The Peddler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19602160&postcount=23)
Chapter 4: The Gleeman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19604941&postcount=27)
Chapter 5: Winternight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19616301&postcount=56)
Chapter 6: The Westwood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19616495&postcount=63)
Chapter 7: Out of the Woods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19616639&postcount=65)
Chapter 8: A Place of Safety (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19637747&postcount=113)
Chapter 9: Tellings of the Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19638568&postcount=115)
Chapter 10: Leavetaking (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19667125&postcount=140)
Chapter 11: The Road to Taren Ferry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19667461&postcount=144)
Chapter 12: Across the Taren (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19668082&postcount=147)
Chapter 13: Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19670632&postcount=161)
Chapter 14: The Stag and Lion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19690879&postcount=193)
Chapter 15: Strangers and Friends (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19696088&postcount=211)
Chapter 16: The Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19700419&postcount=217)
Chapter 17: Watchers and Hunters (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19701624&postcount=221)
Chapter 18: The Caemlyn Road (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19706477&postcount=227)
Chapter 19: Shadow's Waiting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19708877&postcount=249)
Chapter 20: Dust on the Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19729262&postcount=296)
Chapter 21: Listen to the Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19732274&postcount=311)
Chapter 22: A Path Chosen (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19732577&postcount=317)
Chapter 23: Wolfbrother (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19732659&postcount=318)
Chapter 24: Flight Down the Arinelle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19752347&postcount=335)
Chapter 25: The Traveling People (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19753873&postcount=356)
Chapter 26: Whitebridge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19771121&postcount=370)
Chapter 27: Shelter From the Storm (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19780915&postcount=387)
Chapter 28: Footprints in Air (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19780967&postcount=389)
Chapter 29: Eyes Without Pity (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19785539&postcount=420)
Chapter 30: Children of Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19814243&postcount=461)
Chapter 31: Play For Your Supper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19814601&postcount=464)
Chapter 32: Four Kings in Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19817643&postcount=473)
Chapter 33: The Shadow Waits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19882795&postcount=499)
Chapter 34: The Last Village (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19882889&postcount=500)
Chapter 35: Caemlyn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19911821&postcount=576)
Chapter 36: Web of the Pattern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913558&postcount=578)
Chapter 37: The Long Chase (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913696&postcount=581)
Chapter 38: Rescue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19913857&postcount=584)
Chapter 39: Weaving of the Web (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19918514&postcount=605)
Chapter 40: The Web Tightens (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19922961&postcount=613)
Chapter 41: Old Friends and New Threats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19940983&postcount=635)
Chapter 42: Remembrance of Dreams (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19943922&postcount=645)
Chapter 43: Decisions and Apparitions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19952126&postcount=647)
Chapter 44: The Dark Along the Ways (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19952186&postcount=648)
Chapter 45: What Follows in Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19952257&postcount=649)
Chapter 46: Fal Dara (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19954916&postcount=659)
Chapter 47: More Tales of the Wheel (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19955948&postcount=667)
Chapter 48: The Blight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19961708&postcount=685)
Chapter 49: The Dark One Stirs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19965792&postcount=695)
Chapter 50: Meetings at the Eye (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19970186&postcount=698)
Chapter 51: Against the Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19974885&postcount=734)
Chapter 52: There is Neither Beginning Nor End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19975345&postcount=741)
Chapter 53: The Wheel Turns (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19975677&postcount=742)
Prologue: In the Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20036679&postcount=801)
Chapter 1: The Flame of Tar Valon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20219695&postcount=814)
Chapter 2: The Welcome (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20223599&postcount=831)
Chapter 3: Friends and Enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20319457&postcount=915)
Chapter 4: Summoned (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20328440&postcount=937)
Chapter 5: The Shadow in Shienar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20423106&postcount=979)
Chapter 6: Dark Prophecy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20451772&postcount=1015)
Chapter 7: Blood Calls Blood (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20484397&postcount=1061)
Chapter 8: The Dragon Reborn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20488450&postcount=1067)
Chapter 9: Leavetakings (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20536563&postcount=1084)
Chapter 10: The Hunt Begins (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20605667&postcount=1105)
Chapter 11: Glimmers of the Pattern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20717707&postcount=1186)
Chapter 12: Woven in the Pattern (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20728447&postcount=1212)
Chapter 13: From Stone to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20743878&postcount=1267)
Chapter 14: Wolfbrother (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20787064&postcount=1326)
Chapter 15: Kinslayer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20791044&postcount=1344)
Chapter 16: In the Mirror of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20834610&postcount=1428)
Chapter 17: Choices (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20857981&postcount=1454)
Chapter 18: To the White Tower (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20883336&postcount=1481)
Chapter 19: Beneath the Dagger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20884035&postcount=1489)

Traab

2016-06-13, 06:29 PM

/Marry Poppins quote "POSTS, EVERYONE!"

Reddish Mage

2016-06-13, 08:04 PM

Funny, I remember the books get really horny AFTER....oh wait spoilers

Anteros

2016-06-13, 08:38 PM

I have reservations about this title making people think we're talking about something weird, but it's your thread.

Agreed, and I think there's also a "corruptibility" mechanic at work too. Book 1 Mat was a greedy bumpkin and actually wanted the dagger (or at least the ruby in its hilt), hence stealing it. That emotion likely gives the darkness a little more to work with. Perrin and Rand meanwhile actively rejected anything from the trove. The dagger as a whole takes several pages from the One Ring artifact playbook, including having its very own obsessed Gollum figure.

Doesn't Morraine throw in a line that Mat is actually not susceptable to the dagger compared to normal people? She definitely says that it was his good nature that allowed him to hold on as long as he did.

Suin is a cold person. Alric's purpose in the plot is to show us how cold and calculating she is, even when people she should care for die. It makes her eventual transition into a person who cares about personal bonds more striking.

An Enemy Spy

2016-06-14, 12:34 AM

I think I'm gonna change the title. It gets less funny every time I look at it. Not entirely sure how to do that though.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-14, 12:43 AM

New thread! :smallbiggrin:

...you'd get massive amount of leeway. Just look at how much slack they cut Alanna after she lost a warder. Verin's POV is instructive, because she's so observant and dispassionate.

I think I'm gonna change the title. It gets less funny every time I look at it. Not entirely sure how to do that though.

You can edit the original post, I think.

snowblizz

2016-06-14, 04:42 AM

Suin is a cold person. Alric's purpose in the plot is to show us how cold and calculating she is, even when people she should care for die. It makes her eventual transition into a person who cares about personal bonds more striking.

In part it's probably to showcase the Blue. Siuan has a mission, The Mission (tm) in fact. She won't let anything stop that. Everyone except Rand is expendable to her.

Furthermore all (except Reds) Aes Sedai have Warders, That Is How It Is Done. Browns have Warders even though most never leave Tar Valon let alone the White Tower. In fact that seems to be a way to punish the more adventurous of Warders IIRC. That it has little to do with need and more tradition is clearly dispayed with the Red, who if anyone, would need them. Aes Sedai do tend to stick with tradition over reality often enough, silly as it seems. That the Amyrlin has a Warder as a last line of defense of her life just as any Aes Sedai makes perfect sense. Siuan may not be making the most of it, but then she is very driven.

Saph

2016-06-14, 05:08 AM

I think I'm gonna change the title. It gets less funny every time I look at it. Not entirely sure how to do that though.

I quite liked 'This Is Not The Beginning'.

In part it's probably to showcase the Blue. Siuan has a mission, The Mission (tm) in fact. She won't let anything stop that. Everyone except Rand is expendable to her.

In fact, everyone including Rand is expendable. Rand's job is just to get expended slightly later. :smalltongue:

It's a definite trait of the Blue Ajah that while they're clearly meant to be more one of the 'good guy' Ajahs, they're also ruthless. Moiraine can already be scary, and the more Aes Sedai we see, the more we realise she's actually one of the kindlier ones. Siuan is much less nice.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-14, 05:45 AM

Moiraine can already be scary, and the more Aes Sedai we see, the more we realise she's actually one of the kindlier ones. Siuan is much less nice.

I certainly know who wears the pants in my headcanon!

it's interesting that the Siuan/Leane dynamic takes on such a butch/femme flavour - and that it gets forced into secrecy - after they get stilled. Maybe Siuan was trying to replace someone?

Psyren

2016-06-14, 08:45 AM

Can we not label the spoilers with death things?

New thread! :smallbiggrin:

...you'd get massive amount of leeway. Just look at how much slack they cut Alanna after she lost a warder. Verin's POV is instructive, because she's so observant and dispassionate.

Slack???

Cadsuane treated her like a child and manipulated her mercilessly, and Verin was only a little better. Sure those two are particularly manipulative, but the majority of the Sitters are little different. Romanda, Lelaine, any of the Black ones, they'd all have eaten her for lunch. And Alanna is just a regular sister, not even the Amyrlin, someone they'd have reason to antagonize (and in the Black's case, look for any pretext to depose or kill if the Shadow required it.)

Suin is a cold person. Alric's purpose in the plot is to show us how cold and calculating she is, even when people she should care for die. It makes her eventual transition into a person who cares about personal bonds more striking.

I'd believe this if I had any indication or justification that she cared to begin with. Instead we get "she is sad now, because the magic is making her sad now" with not a scrap of information as to what Alric did for her personally or professionally.

In part it's probably to showcase the Blue. Siuan has a mission, The Mission (tm) in fact. She won't let anything stop that. Everyone except Rand is expendable to her.

Furthermore all (except Reds) Aes Sedai have Warders, That Is How It Is Done. Browns have Warders even though most never leave Tar Valon let alone the White Tower. In fact that seems to be a way to punish the more adventurous of Warders IIRC. That it has little to do with need and more tradition is clearly dispayed with the Red, who if anyone, would need them. Aes Sedai do tend to stick with tradition over reality often enough, silly as it seems. That the Amyrlin has a Warder as a last line of defense of her life just as any Aes Sedai makes perfect sense. Siuan may not be making the most of it, but then she is very driven.

I have no doubt that this is the reason, and perhaps the only reason. That doesn't make his character any less pointless however. Again, if we end up with a live-action adaptation of some kind, there'll be a lot of dead wood to whittle away and I would nominate this guy for the chopping block in a heartbeat.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-14, 09:17 AM

That doesn't make his character any less pointless however.

I think we're going in circles on Alric now, so I'm going to drop it. The particular bit above does give me an idea though...

If you had to pick a four-man, all-star adventuring party or 'dream team' from all the characters in the books, who would y'all choose?

Saph

2016-06-14, 09:55 AM

I think we're going in circles on Alric now, so I'm going to drop it. The particular bit above does give me an idea though...

If you had to pick a four-man, all-star adventuring party or 'dream team' from all the characters in the books, who would y'all choose?

That's kind of a fun one. I mean, it's easy to pick the most powerful, but you have to balance that off against other factors such as sanity and not being so manipulative/obnoxious that everyone else wants to kill them. :smallbiggrin:

I'd probably go with Rand, Nynaeve, Lan, and Min. Rand for obvious power reasons, and Nynaeve for similar reasons but also because, out of all the female channellers, she's the one who (at least by the later books) is best able to work constructively with Rand. Lan is there to stop surprise attacks and because he can work well with both Rand and Nynaeve, and Min is there just to stop Rand going insane (and because she's got one of the smallest egos out of all the main characters)

. . . Come to think of it, that's pretty much Wizard, Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, isn't it?

Ashen Lilies

2016-06-14, 10:07 AM

I feel like Mat would probably top a lot of people's lists (at the very least, he definitely tops mine) as party leader, and given how much he gets around, I think we actually come close to it several times, with how the dynamics of The Band of the Red Hand end up working out. Mat, Thom, and Noal are pretty much already a dream party for me already, though they're lacking anyone with knowledge of the One Power.

My dream party would be Mat, Lan, Birgitte, and Verin, though. Possibly substitute Verin for Moiraine. I can't really decide at the moment.

Psyren

2016-06-14, 12:49 PM

The three ta'veren and a gerbil. By the end of it
I'd have ten armies and a boatload of channelers sworn to my group, and the DO would have strict orders out not to kill any of them, including the gerbil.

Less facetiously, you could create a perfect party from the ranks of the Forsaken if they didn't all have chronic backstabbing syndrome and weren't led by a moron.

If I could trust them, I'd probably go with
Moridin for overall badassitude, Lanfear for female power and TAR skill, Semirhage for healing (and to be the second female to help control Callandor), and then a non-channeling rogue type: either Luc/Isam, Padan Fain, Shaidar Haran or the gholam.

monomer

2016-06-14, 02:51 PM

Traab

2016-06-14, 03:34 PM

My first thought was to include Lan as the tank, but really, either Rand or Ishamael can function almost as well in melee, and both have the obvious advantage of also being able to channel. My list would probably go:

Rogue: Mat
Fighter: Rand
Healer: Nynaeve
Caster: Lanfear (Assuming she can get along with everyone)

That gives you strong leadership and tactical awareness, as well as three of the strongest wielders of the one power in the world which gives a ton of flexibility.

If Lanfear doesn't work out, switch Mat into the Tank role since he can pretty much handle anyone anyways, Rand is the caster/off-tank, Nynaeve remains Healer, and for Rogue/Utility, idunno... Thom I guess. A dual dagger-wielding Bard with lore checks out the wazoo should work.

Every party needs at least one lore expert. Thom works, Morainne could do it. Someone you can turn to when anything new pops up and say, "So uh, what do we do here?" Since life isnt an mmo, everyone needs to be able to fight, preferably both long and close range, but if nothing else, close range. Just watch that cave troll battle in fellowship in moria for the reason why. They had a few good tanks right there in the front lines, but as soon as those doors broke down, it turned into a general melee. EVERYONE needs to be able to use a melee weapon well. Being able to attack at a distance is great, but often more of a luxury than a necessity.

So my party would be

Rand for his close and long distance fighting
Thom for his up close combat and general lore knowledge
Lan for his general melee combat mastery
Nyaneave. Now I know I said everyone needs to melee, but there can be an exception, and every group could use a healer/sorceress. Plus if they ever need rope they can cut her damn braid so she stops tugging it all the time.

georgie_leech

2016-06-14, 06:04 PM

Plus if they ever need rope they can cut her damn braid so she stops tugging it all the time.

You just got me a bunch of dirty looks from the other library patrons. I hope you're happy. :smallbiggrin:

GAZ

2016-06-15, 02:36 AM

My WoT adventuring party would be straight up Team Emond's Field: Rand, Mat, Perrin, and Nynaeve. First off, three times ta'vern goodness and main character status. One powerful channeler for each of saidin and saidar. There's high grade melee ability, solid archery, and great woodcraft. And then there's all the Two of the most powerful channelers ever with all the destruction, healing, and tactical supremacy that implies. Listening to the wind. The Dark One's own luck. Complete mastery of Tel'aran'rhiod (and it's honestly shocking that nobody else has brought a real dreamer to the party. [No, Lanfear doesn't count]). One of the best tactical minds ever to really use all those resources and the three tag-along armies.

Anteros

2016-06-15, 06:01 AM

The_Snark

2016-06-15, 07:52 AM

I'm gonna go with team "The universe hates Mat." Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Tuon. Just because they'll constantly be getting themselves into trouble for Mat to rescue them from, and then making his life miserable when he does it. It would be hilarious.

... yikes.

In addition to any damsel-rescuing that may prove necessary, Mat is also going to have to try and play peacemaker when Tuon and Egwene (and Nynaeve) clash - and not the usual humorous bickering you see between characters who are basically on the same side, either, they have legitimate grievances/ideological differences that Mat can't/shouldn't push aside. I feel like the Serious Argument would overshadow the hilarity.

Maybe Cadsuane instead of Tuon? I don't think she and Mat ever meet in the books, but it's a safe assumption that she'd try to push him around, because that's what she does. For bonus points, she'll also strike sparks with Nynaeve and probably Egwene, but in a less serious way.

(Yes, yes, I know people have talked Lanfear and other Forsaken on a team with various good guys, but for some reason Egwene and Tuon seems even less plausible...)

Saph

2016-06-15, 08:48 AM

(Yes, yes, I know people have talked Lanfear and other Forsaken on a team with various good guys, but for some reason Egwene and Tuon seems even less plausible...)

I don't think Egwene works on a team with anyone unless they're all her subordinates, and Cadsuane is almost as bad. But putting Egwene and Tuon in the same group does seem like an especially terrible idea.

Now I'm wondering which groups would score highest on "probability of self-inflicted TPK". Possible candidates:

1) Egwene and Tuon
2) Rand and Demandred
3) Lanfear and Rand's love interests
4) Lanfear and anyone

Psyren

2016-06-15, 09:15 AM

I don't think Egwene works on a team with anyone unless they're all her subordinates, and Cadsuane is almost as bad. But putting Egwene and Tuon in the same group does seem like an especially terrible idea.

Now I'm wondering which groups would score highest on "probability of self-inflicted TPK". Possible candidates:

1) Egwene and Tuon
2) Rand and Demandred
3) Lanfear and Rand's love interests
4) Lanfear and anyone

5) Perrin and Slayer
6) Gholam and [non-Forsaken channeler]
7) Fain and anyone
8) Therava and anyone
9) Couladin and anyone

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-15, 09:36 AM

5) Perrin and Slayer
6) Gholam and [non-Forsaken channeler]
7) Fain and anyone
8) Therava and anyone
9) Couladin and anyone

Oh man...

Imagine a party of Fain, Couladin, Elaida and Lanfear... It'd be PvP central!

Wookieetank

2016-06-15, 09:52 AM

My team:
Tom Bombadil
Galadriel
Elrond
Eowyn

Oh wait wrong let's read thread... :smallredface::smallwink:

My other team:
Ingtar
Mat
Moraine
Tam al'Thor

Cause it'd be interesting.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-15, 09:58 AM

My other team:
Ingtar
Mat
Moraine
Tam al'Thor

Cause it'd be interesting.

I can see a lot of metagaming going on with this team. I get the feeling they'd be okay with a bit of railroading, though. "The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills," after all. :smallwink:

Wookieetank

2016-06-15, 10:47 AM

I can see a lot of metagaming going on with this team. I get the feeling they'd be okay with a bit of railroading, though. "The Wheel weaves as The Wheel wills," after all. :smallwink:

I'm intrigued to see who would come out as party leader (most likely not Tam though). Would Mat end up with lead with his luck and attitude of someone has to do it, and I seem to be the only capable one around (but only under duress and with great amounts of denial), Moraine being Moraine, or Ingtar with his natural aptitude for leading others? Would make for an interesting group dynamic, particularly later on. Tam is more along for common sense and ranged ability tbh.

Psyren

2016-06-15, 10:50 AM

Traab

2016-06-15, 03:01 PM

Mat would QQ the entire time, before going along with it anyway.

Screaming about bloody ashes in the old tongue the entire freaking time.

Anteros

2016-06-16, 06:19 AM

I'm intrigued to see who would come out as party leader (most likely not Tam though). Would Mat end up with lead with his luck and attitude of someone has to do it, and I seem to be the only capable one around (but only under duress and with great amounts of denial), Moraine being Moraine, or Ingtar with his natural aptitude for leading others? Would make for an interesting group dynamic, particularly later on. Tam is more along for common sense and ranged ability tbh.

I'm going to say that Mat would end up leader against his will. Morraine and Tam are both smart enough to know he should be leading, and Ingtar is a career soldier. I'd say that the party starts with Morraine clearly in charge, and shifts to Mat over time as he demonstrates his competency.

... yikes.

In addition to any damsel-rescuing that may prove necessary, Mat is also going to have to try and play peacemaker when Tuon and Egwene (and Nynaeve) clash - and not the usual humorous bickering you see between characters who are basically on the same side, either, they have legitimate grievances/ideological differences that Mat can't/shouldn't push aside. I feel like the Serious Argument would overshadow the hilarity.

Maybe Cadsuane instead of Tuon? I don't think she and Mat ever meet in the books, but it's a safe assumption that she'd try to push him around, because that's what she does. For bonus points, she'll also strike sparks with Nynaeve and probably Egwene, but in a less serious way.

(Yes, yes, I know people have talked Lanfear and other Forsaken on a team with various good guys, but for some reason Egwene and Tuon seems even less plausible...)

I must admit, I almost used Cenn Buie for the last slot.

Wookieetank

2016-06-16, 07:37 AM

I'm going to say that Mat would end up leader against his will. Morraine and Tam are both smart enough to know he should be leading, and Ingtar is a career soldier. I'd say that the party starts with Morraine clearly in charge, and shifts to Mat over time as he demonstrates his competency.

That's about what I was thinking as well, but I wasn't sure if that was just my personal bias/preference towards the characters talking or not. Mat for main character 2016 :smallwink::smalltongue:

Psyren

2016-06-16, 08:28 AM

I'm going to say that Mat would end up leader against his will. Morraine and Tam are both smart enough to know he should be leading, and Ingtar is a career soldier. I'd say that the party starts with Morraine clearly in charge, and shifts to Mat over time as he demonstrates his competency.

I think it's more that Moiraine would tell them "what" and Mat/Tam would decide "how." She's the one who knows prophecies and politics like the back of her hand after all, and he's the one with luck and strategy who can execute.

lord_khaine

2016-06-16, 08:30 AM

Psyren

2016-06-16, 08:53 AM

On constructing a balanced party, then i think more and more that Shadowrun roles are more relevant than d&d ones, even though the setting is much closer to a fantasy one.

And in such a setup then whats really needed to cover most of the roles is

Face: Someone to handle the social interactions and talking, preferebly someone able to play the great game.
Scout: A person able to gather information about the world, a role that overlaps slightly with the Face Role.
Dreamer : The world of dreams hold a lot of options for both travel, exploration and espionage, having access to this is a huge boon for just about any task.
heavy : The person to deal with the majority of fighting, due to how the world works this need to be a strong channeler, since without one your screwed against those.

There's a couple more important ones:

Healer: Your goal might be to save or restore someone important, and the critical moments it takes to find one can mean the difference between success or failure.

Ta'veren: This is an offshoot of Face, some negotiations/deals can only be made if the Pattern literally forces them to happen (Sea Folk, Seanchan, Merrilor.) It's also an offshoot of Heavy - strong Ta'veren can even keep other channelers from acting at all (see for instance Rand's visit to Tar Valon or negotiations with the Windfinders), protect you even in situations where channeling won't work (e.g. the Finn world, Steddings or Shayol Ghul), and if you're fighting an equal-strength channeler, can bring you timely aid at exactly the right moment (Rand vs. Rahvin, Untrained Rand vs. Be'lal, Rand vs. Sammael, Rand vs. Ultra-Lanfear etc.)

mangosta71

2016-06-16, 08:54 AM

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-16, 09:59 AM

With those roles in mind, it's pretty obviously
Face: Moiraine/Mat
Scout: Suian/Moiraine
Egwene
Heavy: Rand

Which also covers Psyren's roles, since Moiraine is a pretty good healer. What about Thom as a 'scout' though?

Wookieetank

2016-06-16, 10:31 AM

Which also covers Psyren's roles, since Moiraine is a pretty good healer. What about Thom as a 'scout' though?

Thom could even be the face, what with being a bard and all. Just gotta keep him away from [redacted], I mean the ladies.

Seerow

2016-06-16, 10:31 AM

Which also covers Psyren's roles, since Moiraine is a pretty good healer. What about Thom as a 'scout' though?

I was thinking something along the lines of Thom/Lan/Perrin/Nynaeve. Covers all 6 roles in question pretty well with bonus style points for only having a single channeler in the group. Though honestly I'd almost want to replace Lan and Nynaeve with other less utilized characters. Like Alivia[ for a Heavy and Damer Flynn for a healer. Which gives a nice rounded party with only a single main character (Necessary for the Ta'veren role) and even there it's the least popular of the main characters.

Leewei

2016-06-16, 11:42 AM

If you had to pick a four-man, all-star adventuring party or 'dream team' from all the characters in the books, who would y'all choose?

I'm going to go outside the box and min/max on this one:

Dark One (Mastery of True Power, a redacted unique and very useful ability, influence over Darkfriends and fell creatures such as Fades and Trollocks)
Rand (Mastery of the One Power, arguably a match for the Dark One in many respects)
Lanfear (Influence / Mind Control for when a softer touch is needed)
Semirhage (Healing / Information Gathering for when the softer touch doesn't quite cut it)

The Dark One may bring back the dead through reincarnation. They retain their knowledge and skills, but their magical talents and appearance change.

The biggest challenge this group would face is simply getting along. Everything else is easily accomplished.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-16, 11:55 AM

I'm going to go outside the box and min/max on this one:

Dark One
Rand (Mastery of the One Power, arguably a match for the Dark One in many respects)
Lanfear (Influence / Mind Control for when a softer touch is needed)
Semirhage (Healing / Information Gathering for when the softer touch doesn't quite cut it)

The biggest challenge this group would face is simply getting along. Everything else is easily accomplished.

I wondered when someone would pick the Dark One. I even considered banning the DO and the Creator (and Artur Hawking and Lews Therin) when I set the challenge. It would be difficult to get anyone to work with the DO though, so it's questionable whether he's really a good pick.

Douglas

2016-06-16, 11:58 AM

I think at least one of those details about the Dark One qualifies as a spoiler, please remove it.

Leewei

2016-06-16, 04:58 PM

I think at least one of those details about the Dark One qualifies as a spoiler, please remove it.

Spoilerized the only detail I can see as sensitive, sir.

Leewei

2016-06-16, 05:18 PM

I wondered when someone would pick the Dark One. I even considered banning the DO and the Creator (and Artur Hawking and Lews Therin) when I set the challenge. It would be difficult to get anyone to work with the DO though, so it's questionable whether he's really a good pick.

I briefly considered the Creator, although I'm not certain he counts. I don't recall any personal appearances from the books I've read.

The Dragon is intended to be one individual, serially incarnated. Rand seems to be the best of these. He ascends to the point of fixing the world and manages to not break his sanity in the process. In a pinch, he can draw upon the memories and skills of his past lives, while they cannot draw upon his.

As far as the Dark One goes, I'm clearly choosing based on raw capability, rather than concept. Jordan's team evil is prone to a lot of self-destructive, omnicidal running with the stupid-ball. There is more than a little metagaming in this proposal. In essence, I'm assuming that the players are all grown-ups and can get along far better than the characters could in the books. It violates the spirit of the characters as written by Jordan, sure. I don't see that as a bad thing. :smallwink:

Douglas

2016-06-16, 05:25 PM

The Dark One may bring back the dead through reincarnation. They retain their knowledge and skills, but their magical talents and appearance change.
Actually, their magical talents stay exactly the same. That's why the male put into a female body still channeled Saidin instead of switching to Saidar.

Lanfear lost power because the 'Finn drained her some before she died, not because of the reincarnation.

Adderbane

2016-06-17, 10:22 PM

I think we need further redaction...

The True Power is a rather major spoiler. Even knowledge of its existence doesn't come until a vague reference in book 4, in the Rhuidean visions.

Misery Esquire

2016-06-17, 10:28 PM

I think we need further redaction...

The True Power is a rather major spoiler. Even knowledge of its existence doesn't come until a vague reference in book 4, in the Rhuidean visions.

Strangely, its a pretty safe spoiler. Because even the characters in the books (incorrectly) call the One Power the True Power from time to time.

Douglas

2016-06-17, 10:57 PM

Strangely, its a pretty safe spoiler. Because even the characters in the books (incorrectly) call the One Power the True Power from time to time.

I don't recall that ever happening. You might be confusing it with the term "True Source", which is where the One Power comes from.

lord_khaine

2016-06-18, 01:04 AM

Thankfully most people who read that spoiler will most likely think its The True Source thats being refered to. If there is not drawn attention towards it then it will most likely get overlooked.

An Enemy Spy

2016-06-20, 07:59 PM

Chapter 20: Saidin
Our heroes keep on going all through the night, and they cross the border into Cairhien. When they finally stop for some rest, Selene's all like I want to see the Horn again, and Rand's like no way, and Selene's like you suck Rand, and Rand's like there's a freaking evil dagger in there we should keep it sealed, and Selene's like you suck Rand. He asks if she's an Aes Sedai and she gets all in a tizzy. Women, right? It's like you can't even accuse them of being witches without them getting all pissy about it.

The path starts going downhill, and at last they leave the Kinslayer's Dagger behind and make it to open ground. They get onto a dirt track going through fields of farmland and find a village. Rand is happy that they'll finally be able to sleep in a warm inn after freezing his nuts off on the mountain, but Selene doesn't want to go in the inn. She loves sleeping outside in the cold dirt, as is customary for ladies of her high station. She says there could be Darkfriends in the village. A village out here filled with Darkfriends? That's about as likely as a team from Cleveland winning a championship, Rand says. And anyway, even if there are Darkfriends, they'd never be able to take the Horn in a small village with all these unsuspecting villagers surrounding it. Don't you know that unsuspecting villagers are the Dark One's only weakness? Rand was an unsuspecting villager, and look what he did. They put a blanket over the chest to keep people from noticing it. I mean, how could anyone think the chest could hold anything important? There's a blanket (https://youtu.be/vbutCadxZc4?t=33s) over it. How many treasure chests have you ever found in a dungeon that had blankets thrown decoratively over them? I rest my case.

A little while later, Rand sees a bright light coming from the ground. He's so distracted by the light that he almost channels his inner Wile E. Coyote (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq_bjaI0NTo) and rides straight off a cliff. Luckily his horse is a better navigator than he is and stops. Most of the hill has been dug away, and there's some men at the bottom around a campfire, but what really gets Rand's attention is the giant glowing gemstone being held by a stone hand that's jutting out of the earth. Oh snap, Domon talked about this in Book One, but it looks like this one's just been excavated so maybe there's more of them somewhere. That gem is full of Saidin, and it's calling Rand to it. He almost mindlessly tries to approach the stone against the protestations of his comrades. He tries to push against the Saidin, but it's as resolute as concrete. The light fills him and he starts to mumble louder as he goes until he's shouting at the end. "Till shade is gone, till water is gone, into the Shadow with teeth bared to spit in Sightblinder's eye on the last day!" The ground gives out under his horse's hooves and the shock is enough to snap him out of the trance and ride to more solid ground. I would say that was weird, but at this point it's really just another day in the life of the Dragon Reborn.

Well, despite Rand's incredibly stealthy shouting (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Wj2yMuTIU), the guards below have noticed them, so it's time to beat a quick retreat and head to the village to spend the night.

Feytalist

2016-06-21, 02:31 AM

Unsuspecting villagers are like the number one foil to any bad guys. Decades of fantasy stories can't be wrong :smallbiggrin:

Might be worth remembering that big gem thing and the events surrounding it. Might come in handy...

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-21, 03:23 AM

Psyren

2016-06-21, 09:33 AM

They put a blanket over the chest to keep people from noticing it. I mean, how could anyone think the chest could hold anything important? There's a blanket (https://youtu.be/vbutCadxZc4?t=33s) over it. How many treasure chests have you ever found in a dungeon that had blankets thrown decoratively over them? I rest my case.

Actually it's not a bad plan. Remember he's disguising it as luggage, which is pretty much the only way you CAN disguise a treasure chest unless you have a Portable Hole handy.

“Unroll your blanket, Loial, and throw it over the chest. Keep it covered.” Loial complied, and Rand nodded. It was obvious there was a box or chest beneath the Ogier’s striped blanket, but nothing suggested it was more than a travel chest. “My Lady’s chest of clothes,” Rand said with a grin and a bow.

Selene met his sally with silence and an unreadable look. After a moment, they started on again.

Oh snap, Domon talked about this in Book One, but it looks like this one's just been excavated so maybe there's more of them somewhere.

I must say, you have a great eye for the details. My first time through, I did not at all remember Domon's foreshadowing about this.

(Granted, my first time through TGH was about 20 years ago or so, but still.)

lord_khaine

2016-06-21, 12:51 PM

Its absurdly how many details from book 1 suddenly pops up when least expected. :smallbiggrin:

Adderbane

2016-06-21, 03:41 PM

Its absurdly how many details from book 1 suddenly pops up when least expected. :smallbiggrin:

You really have to work to find things from the first book that aren't important later.

An Enemy Spy

2016-06-22, 10:06 PM

Chapter 21: The Nine Rings
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men, doomed to die,
Hey, let's name our inn after that one!

Disappointingly, there are no Ringwraiths in the Nine Rings Inn, just the typical visitors you'd expect to find in an inn on a road like this. There's a group of soldiers there, led by an officer with yellow and red stripes on his blue coat. They assume that Rand and Selene are nobility and that Loial comes from the nearby Stedding Tsofu. They think Rand is joining in the Great Hunt for the Horn of Valere, which is wrong. They already have the Horn, so they don't need to hunt for it, which means Rand can deny it without being dishonest.

They eat some food and play music and do other boring inn stuff we've already seen ad naseum in Book One. If they never stop in another inn again in this series that will be fine by me.

Captain Caldevwin, the leader of the soldiers takes a special interest in Rand. He asks some questions about Andor, pretty obviously trying to catch Rand in a lie by asking for information he almost certainly already knows. He asks Selene what her name is, but a serving girl fortuitously and uncharacteristically breaks up the conversation by dropping a lamp before he can get the answer. I'm betting there is nobody named Lady Selene of House Whatever in Cairhien, and he would instantly know her for a liar if she gave him her name. It sure was lucky that lamp practically leaped out of that girl's hands just at that moment, wasn't it?

Selene orders a private room for herself and goes upstairs before any other timely mishaps have to occur, and Rand asks the captain about that stone he saw. Caldevwin doesn't know anything about it other than that the statue holding it must have been made in the Age of Legends and that the King of Cairhien wants it dug up and brought back to the city, although with this guy who knows what information he's holding back? Rand says he's leaving for the city in the morning, and what luck, the captain just happens to be sending some men back to Cairhien at the exact same time! Why, they'll be able to spy on, I mean escort, I said escort him for the entire journey!

When they're in private, Rand wants to know what the deal is with Caldevwin, and Hurin and Loial explain that he's partaking in the Cairhienian tradition of Daes Dae'mar, the Game of Houses (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7L2PVdrb_8). It's sort of like like the Game of Thrones, but while that's more of an abstract label for the power struggles that go on in the higher levels of the kingdom both overt and covert, this Daes Dae'mar is almost like a ritualized sport. Everyone in Cairhien high and low takes part in it, and everyone is fully aware of the Game being played. In Cairhien, everyone is trying is trying to get one over you, and everyone knows it. Being spied on here is just a part of daily life.

The next morning Selene is gone. She doesn't like Caldevwin, and there's too many people here for her taste, so she's going to be waiting for Rand in the city, where there will be far fewer people.

Douglas

2016-06-22, 11:46 PM

so she's going to be waiting for Rand in the city, where there will be far fewer people.
Right. Nothing suspicious about that reasoning at all. It makes perfect sense.:smallamused:

Daes Dae'mar is funny to watch, as someone who's not actually invested in or affected by the consequences.

georgie_leech

2016-06-23, 12:00 AM

Right. Nothing suspicious about that reasoning at all. It makes perfect sense.:smallamused:

Daes Dae'mar is funny to watch, as someone who's not actually invested in or affected by the consequences.

'He knows I know she knows he knows they know I know, you know?'

Psyren

2016-06-23, 08:40 AM

The Game is particularly hilarious when you're Ta'veren. But I get ahead of myself :smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-23, 08:47 AM

What gets me is the 'planet of hats' thing RJ's got going on. Every Cairhienen plays the Game in their sleep. Every (true) Cairhienen is prudish and reserved. Every Cairhienen is shorter than everyone else. *sigh* Given the amount of trade and cultural exchange going on, it's really jarring how monochrome each city is.

Saph

2016-06-23, 08:57 AM

What gets me is the 'planet of hats' thing RJ's got going on. Every Cairhienen plays the Game in their sleep.

Do they really, though? I remember a few who were fairly different (especially the ones met outside Cairhien).

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-23, 09:02 AM

Do they really, though? I remember a few who were fairly different (especially the ones met outside Cairhien).

Apart from Aes Sedai (who are just about the only group without hats), I can't think of any Cairhienen we have met outside of the city...

Psyren

2016-06-23, 09:16 AM

Apart from Aes Sedai (who are just about the only group without hats), I can't think of any Cairhienen we have met outside of the city...

The most prominent would be
Talmanes Delovinde, Mat's right hand. This guy's a very straight shooter, especially by Cairhienin standards.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-23, 09:31 AM

The most prominent would be
Talmanes Delovinde, Mat's right hand. This guy's a very straight shooter, especially by Cairhienin standards.

True enough.Though we don't know what he was like before he met Mat, who has clearly had a deep, ta'veren-y influence on him. And he might just be refraining from the Game for lack of people to play it with.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-23, 10:02 AM

'He knows I know she knows he knows they know I know, you know?'

I KNOW YOU KNOW
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMYuE0IZQ34)

The most prominent would be
Talmanes Delovinde, Mat's right hand. This guy's a very straight shooter, especially by Cairhienin standards.

He is also in the top ten of the best characters in the series.

Rereading the series knowing that almost everything he says..is a joke of some sort makes him so much better.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-23, 10:13 AM

I KNOW YOU KNOW
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMYuE0IZQ34)

Ah, but He Knows You Know (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0WIY1z13jg)! (But he's got problems)

Qwertystop

2016-06-23, 10:21 AM

'He knows I know she knows he knows they know I know, you know?'

More "Why won't he say anything beyond 'I'm not scheming, please leave me alone?' Perhaps the slight differences in phrasing are a code?"

Feytalist

2016-06-23, 11:30 AM

He is also in the top ten of the best characters in the series.

Rereading the series knowing that almost everything he says..is a joke of some sort makes him so much better.

Oh, certainly.

But I admit that I was a bit disappointed when we get a viewpoint section from him and it's blatantly spelt out - his dry humour was fairly noticeable in any case, and I thought it would have been better left unsaid.

Adderbane

2016-06-23, 01:58 PM

Apart from Aes Sedai (who are just about the only group without hats), I can't think of any Cairhienen we have met outside of the city...

Aes Sedai have hats, they're just assigned on a by-Ajah basis.

Traab

2016-06-23, 02:24 PM

I dunno, in a way it makes sense. Every capitol area has its own culture and identity, and considering the tech phase this cycle of the wheel is on, its like comparing france to australia, to china. Yes there is a meeting of people, but the influence of multiculturalism isnt going to be as strong when the vast majority of people who travel tend to be merchants and maybe nobles. Everyone else tends to stay in the same area, where they have been raised to behave like this or that. Sure there will be outliers, but the majority will be similar, if only in broad strokes. France is a bunch of cheese eating surrender monkeys, australia is populated by mad max characters who evolved to deal with the fact that literally everything on that landmass wants to kill them, and china is a nation of floating martial artists. I mean im sure that there is at least ONE brave guy in france, and its possible there are a few clumsy people in china, but in the main it holds true.

Oh for gods sake of course im not serious!

Anteros

2016-06-23, 03:50 PM

I mean im sure that there is at least ONE brave guy in france, and its possible there are a few clumsy people in china,

I'm gonna need some sort of proof for these ridiculous claims.

Psyren

2016-06-23, 04:01 PM

True enough.Though we don't know what he was like before he met Mat, who has clearly had a deep, ta'veren-y influence on him. And he might just be refraining from the Game for lack of people to play it with.

I'm pretty sure he was always more general than politician. Otherwise he'd likely have gotten caught up in
the power struggle between Galldrian and Barthanes, which AES is getting fairly close to, and likely died.

Aes Sedai have hats, they're just assigned on a by-Ajah basis.

Actually I think this is one of the cooler aspects of Aes Sedai - for all that they swear themselves to the Tower and Tar Valon, almost universally you can see at least some influence of the lands they came from.

Examples include Moiraine's Cairhienin political savvy (and prudishness), Siuan's blunt and foul-mouthed Tairen peasant upbringing, Leane's Domani flirtatiousness, Cadsuane's Far Madding disdain for (or at least ingrained superiority to) men, Liandrin's Taraboner peasant envy of nobility etc.

lord_khaine

2016-06-23, 05:29 PM

He is also in the top ten of the best characters in the series.

it were certainly hilarious to discover he had been trolling everyone else the entire serie.
And his viewpoint chapter were a crowning moment of awesome.

Actually I think this is one of the cooler aspects of Aes Sedai - for all that they swear themselves to the Tower and Tar Valon, almost universally you can see at least some influence of the lands they came from.

Cant see that in Cansuane, it seems more like a general disdain for everyone younger than herself, she threats everyone equally as kids.

Seerow

2016-06-23, 07:42 PM

Guys please don't bait me into starting another reread just for that character. I'm almost done!

though if someone gives me a list of all chapters where he appears I might go back and reread those without complaint anyway...

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-23, 07:47 PM

Oh, certainly.

But I admit that I was a bit disappointed when we get a viewpoint section from him and it's blatantly spelt out - his dry humour was fairly noticeable in any case, and I thought it would have been better left unsaid.

Eh I like that he gets annoyed that nobody can tell he is joking.

Misery Esquire

2016-06-23, 08:02 PM

though if someone gives me a list of all chapters where he appears I might go back and reread those without complaint anyway...

I have been kind of curious how the stories would read if one were to simply chop the books up and merge all of each character's stuff into their own volume. Ie; Book of Rand, Book of Mat, Book of Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, etc, etc. Consisting of whenever they are onscreen and their point of view pieces.

The group parts would end up repeating, but depending on the order you read them, it shouldn't repeat too much. Excluding the opening for Eye of the World going around... Seven or so times.

Anteros

2016-06-23, 08:41 PM

I have been kind of curious how the stories would read if one were to simply chop the books up and merge all of each character's stuff into their own volume. Ie; Book of Rand, Book of Mat, Book of Perrin, Elayne, Egwene, etc, etc. Consisting of whenever they are onscreen and their point of view pieces.

The group parts would end up repeating, but depending on the order you read them, it shouldn't repeat too much. Excluding the opening for Eye of the World going around... Seven or so times.

It would be pretty jarring and jump around a lot. A lot of important character's plot points happen during other character's perspective chapters. You'd have to majorly re-write huge portions to make it work.

Misery Esquire

2016-06-23, 09:01 PM

It would be pretty jarring and jump around a lot. A lot of important character's plot points happen during other character's perspective chapters. You'd have to majorly re-write huge portions to make it work.

If they are present in the chapter that chapter would be included in their amalgamation, though. So the only thing we'd lose is when people talk about someone who isn't there. /shrug

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-24, 01:21 AM

Siuan's blunt and foul-mouthed Tairen peasant upbringing

Complete tangent, but...
One of the things I love about Amyrlin!Egwene is how she's started spouting off about lionfish and silverpike... She such a cultural sponge!
Back on topic though, it's cool that the Aes Sedai have influences from their nationalities, Ajahs and other sources. It means that no two are alike, but it doesn't clash with the rest of the setting.

Psyren

2016-06-24, 08:53 AM

Cant see that in Cansuane, it seems more like a general disdain for everyone younger than herself, she threats everyone equally as kids.

Nah, Jordan himself stated (http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=252) that Far Madding's society is to blame for her attitude.

Complete tangent, but...
One of the things I love about Amyrlin!Egwene is how she's started spouting off about lionfish and silverpike... She such a cultural sponge!
Back on topic though, it's cool that the Aes Sedai have influences from their nationalities, Ajahs and other sources. It means that no two are alike, but it doesn't clash with the rest of the setting.

That's indeed one of my favorite aspects of her character :smallsmile:

If she had ridden a Sea Folk vessel with the other two, next thing you know she'd have rings in her nose and be baring her boobs everywhere.

lord_khaine

2016-06-24, 11:36 AM

Nah, Jordan himself

I can see he mentioned it influencing her early years, but the Cadsuane we see are rather old, and she is patronising towards everyone equally, not just men.
Though also kinda funny when awakend Rand finally calls her out on it, and point how he were technically older than her.

The New Bruceski

2016-06-24, 11:42 AM

I think it's a bit "city of hats" stuff, but also we're seeing it through the eyes of a visitor, and a country bumpkin at that. Of course these strange new cities are going to generalize the behavior down to the stereotypes, it's simply overwhelming otherwise. Cairhen plays Daes Daemar, Caemlyn is obsessed with the succession, whatchamacallit border city is full of proud warriors, et cetera.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-24, 12:09 PM

whatchamacallit border city is full of proud warriors, et cetera.

Isn't every city in this story filled with proud warriors? A better destination might be 'proud, effective warriors'. :smalltongue:

Douglas

2016-06-24, 12:16 PM

Isn't every city in this story filled with proud warriors? A better destination might be 'proud, effective warriors'. :smalltongue:
Every city has proud warriors, but most aren't filled with them. The Borderlands are in a perpetual war for survival with the residents of the Blight, and thus have a huge portion of their population serving in their military. Other places fight wars only for politics and ambition, and thus tend to be mostly civilian.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-24, 12:22 PM

georgie_leech

2016-06-24, 12:46 PM

Yeah, we probably get a distorted impression because most of the main characters spend so much time doing military stuff. I do like how every culture thinks it has the best warriors though. It feels realistic.

Slight distinction, I think most of them think they have the best armies, but not necessarily the best individual warriors. I seem to recall that most of them acknowledge the Aiel as absolutely terrifying in battle. Even if boastful idiots like to claim otherwise. :smalltongue:

Anteros

2016-06-24, 01:41 PM

Slight distinction, I think most of them think they have the best armies, but not necessarily the best individual warriors. I seem to recall that most of them acknowledge the Aiel as absolutely terrifying in battle. Even if boastful idiots like to claim otherwise. :smalltongue:

Which is funny, because "realistically" they would get crushed by armies with armor and cavalry. Jordan had to know that when he wrote the books too. He was a military historian (which is why his battle scenes are so good and realistic, and why the battles got so much worse and sillier when Sanderson took over.)

Qwertystop

2016-06-24, 01:50 PM

Which is funny, because "realistically" they would get crushed by armies with armor and cavalry. Jordan had to know that when he wrote the books too. He was a military historian (which is why his battle scenes are so good and realistic, and why the battles got so much worse and sillier when Sanderson took over.)

Maybe? I mean, look at the Anglo-Zulu War - sufficient skill and organization can absolutely make up for reduced technological capability, to a certain extent. Also numbers.

nightwyrm

2016-06-24, 01:51 PM

Which is funny, because "realistically" they would get crushed by armies with armor and cavalry. Jordan had to know that when he wrote the books too. He was a military historian (which is why his battle scenes are so good and realistic, and why the battles got so much worse and sillier when Sanderson took over.)

Oh yeah. Tarmon Gaidon battles involving only thousands of people. Really....

Anteros

2016-06-24, 02:13 PM

Maybe? I mean, look at the Anglo-Zulu War - sufficient skill and organization can absolutely make up for reduced technological capability, to a certain extent. Also numbers.

Even there, the British sent 15,000 men against 35,000, inflicted massively more casualties than they sustained, and won the war. The only reason the Zulu did as well as they did was the difficulty of orchestrating a war as far away from home as Britain was at the time. The Zulu could never have sustained success at maintaining an invasion the way the Aiel do in the books.

Let's not forget that the Aiel are largely behind in military tactics as well. Individual skill may be higher, and they may even have better commanders on average, but realistically there's nothing they could do against a shield/pike wall or a cavalry charge. They'd get crushed.

They could probably perform successful guerrilla warfare, and hit and run tactics, but that isn't what happens in the books.

I'm not sure any of this is actually spoilers since we've already had the Aiel war mentioned in the books.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-24, 02:24 PM

Even there, the British sent 15,000 men against 35,000, inflicted massively more casualties than they sustained, and won the war.

The Battle of Isandlwana comparison was a strawman anyway, because the original comment was about 'cavalry', which in WoT means heavy, French-style riders in full plate. The British soldiers in Africa were riflemen, wearing no armour. A totally different proposition.

And wikipedia says that battle was 748 British troops and 1,089 'native & colonial' against 20,000 Zulu warriors. The Aiel, on the other hand, seem to be able to win consistently with 1 Aielman to every 10 wetlanders.

Psyren

2016-06-24, 02:42 PM

Maybe? I mean, look at the Anglo-Zulu War - sufficient skill and organization can absolutely make up for reduced technological capability, to a certain extent. Also numbers.

Also, Aiel are practically superhuman. Gaul for instance can outrun a horse, and go weeks without food or water.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-24, 02:56 PM

Also, Aiel are practically superhuman. Gaul for instance can outrun a horse, and go weeks without food or water.

P'shaw! Sorilea could outrun two horses, in a skirt, while simultaneously giving Rand an earful AND negotiating world peace!

lord_khaine

2016-06-24, 02:58 PM

I'm not sure any of this is actually spoilers since we've already had the Aiel war mentioned in the books.

It kinda reveals a bit about the Aiel though, we have not at this point seen them yet.
And i think we swiftly need to put up some spoilers to hide all these comments about the Aiel.

Though i completely agree with you on the point, its something i did not think about myself before now, but the Aiel should absolutely get crushed in any direct engagement.
Just minor things like helmet+shield wall, or actual military organisation should defeat anything but an inhuman army when your opponents are wearing nothing but cloth, and using spears.

Also, it was in endurance that Gaul outran a horse as i recall, that is impressive but not superhumanly so.

Psyren

2016-06-24, 03:17 PM

Also, it was in endurance that Gaul outran a horse as i recall, that is impressive but not superhumanly so.

It was both. Granted Stepper is described as being more plodding (like his rider) but still, I doubt any Randland soldiers could pull off a similar feat even without their armor.

But beyond that, remember that the Aiel are anything but disorganized. They have enough battle awareness to avoid fighting the same society even in the middle of a scrum, or to avoid striking a Wise One or Roofmistress walking through the middle of a battle etc.

monomer

2016-06-24, 05:44 PM

It kinda reveals a bit about the Aiel though, we have not at this point seen them yet.
And i think we swiftly need to put up some spoilers to hide all these comments about the Aiel.

Though i completely agree with you on the point, its something i did not think about myself before now, but the Aiel should absolutely get crushed in any direct engagement.
Just minor things like helmet+shield wall, or actual military organisation should defeat anything but an inhuman army when your opponents are wearing nothing but cloth, and using spears.

Also, it was in endurance that Gaul outran a horse as i recall, that is impressive but not superhumanly so.

So a couple things.

1) Lan describes one of their preferred tactics in The Shadow Rising, where basically, a column of Aiel is split into quarters, with one quarter attacking head first, two other quarters flanking the enemy, and the fourth waiting for a weakness to exploit. I'm not sure how well this tactic would work in the real world since scouts would be able to determine what was about to happen .The key to their fighting, though is their speed and stealth, since the Aiel are basically invisible. From Lan: "When you make first contact, you will not spot Aiel unless you are lucky." Rhuarc then confirms that this tactic works against Bordermen (presumably heavy cavalry for Shienar).

2) A disciplined, well prepared commander can certainly defend well against the Aiel. Of course, the only one shown to do such a thing effectively was Mat who just happens to be the greatest military leader in the history of the Third Age. He only needed a strong core of pikemen to protect his Horse, as well as preternatural luck to ensure he had adequate field position to make a stand.

So yeah, if we just assume the Aiel are very well trained spearmen, then they should do terribly against a decent heavy cavalry considering they are unarmored. This does not take into account their speed and invisibility. I would also assume that most, if not all, cavalry commanders who have not faced the Aiel before, would not consider them a threat, since they are only infantry, so should be looked down upon as the Lords from Tear are always inclined to do. The Cairhienens have a healthy respect for them, though it seems they didn't learn anything about tactics during the Aiel War.

snowblizz

2016-06-24, 06:57 PM

So a couple things.

1) Lan describes one of their preferred tactics in The Shadow Rising, where basically, a column of Aiel is split into quarters, with one quarter attacking head first, two other quarters flanking the enemy, and the fourth waiting for a weakness to exploit. I'm not sure how well this tactic would work in the real world since scouts would be able to determine what was about to happen .The key to their fighting, though is their speed and stealth, since the Aiel are basically invisible. From Lan: "When you make first contact, you will not spot Aiel unless you are lucky." Rhuarc then confirms that this tactic works against Bordermen (presumably heavy cavalry for Shienar).

2) A disciplined, well prepared commander can certainly defend well against the Aiel. Of course, the only one shown to do such a thing effectively was Mat who just happens to be the greatest military leader in the history of the Third Age. He only needed a strong core of pikemen to protect his Horse, as well as preternatural luck to ensure he had adequate field position to make a stand.

So yeah, if we just assume the Aiel are very well trained spearmen, then they should do terribly against a decent heavy cavalry considering they are unarmored. This does not take into account their speed and invisibility. I would also assume that most, if not all, cavalry commanders who have not faced the Aiel before, would not consider them a threat, since they are only infantry, so should be looked down upon as the Lords from Tear are always inclined to do. The Cairhienens have a healthy respect for them, though it seems they didn't learn anything about tactics during the Aiel War.

1) This tactic was spectacularly successful in the real world, used by the Zulu. Obviously somewhat less so agaisnt massed rifle fire but then that's not what they face. Dead scouts tell no tales and do you want to bet on the Aiel or Wetlander's scouts?
2) A pike block is not invulnerable and has "gaps" that people can slip by in (since the pike soldiers themseleves need room). In fact the Spanish used sword and board guys to break up pikeblocks as pikes in formation aren't closecombat weapons.
3)Aiel are less spearmen than swordsmen actually. Since they are fighting using zulu weapons and thus lack the range of a full spear.
More than once they seem to be severely outnumbering their enemies too. Most non bookseries combat is with very small armies actually, paralelling a similar trend IRL for a bit. Or to be clear(er) as the series progress army sizes shoot up by factors of x10 or even x100. There's a reason it took a coalition to stop the Aiel invasion, and Aiel can sustain larger losses in troops.

FWIW most Randland military forces exibit "planet of the hat" syndrome to me. And it bugs me a bit.

nightwyrm

2016-06-24, 08:13 PM

A human actually can outrun a horse, as long as it's long distance endurance running. If you try to run a horse through a marathon, the horse will die.

georgie_leech

2016-06-25, 01:07 AM

A human actually can outrun a horse, as long as it's long distance endurance running. If you try to run a horse through a marathon, the horse will die.

The average person can't run a marathon either mind you. An entire culture capable of doing that day in and day out is still really impressive.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-25, 01:51 AM

The average person can't run a marathon either mind you. An entire culture capable of doing that day in and day out is still really impressive.

Considering they have been doing it for 2500+ years, we should not be surprised.

Sapphire Guard

2016-06-25, 04:01 PM

When do we see the Aiel fight a shieldwall or cavalry charge?

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-25, 04:08 PM

When do we see the Aiel fight a shieldwall or cavalry charge?

Shield-wall? Dumai's Wells. :smalltongue:

But, um... I've just finished book 8, and so far, I don't think anyone's used sensible (mundane) tactics against Aiel armies except on very small scales. I'm saying that Mat's pike squares at Cairhien was a case of 'making the best of a bad situation'.

It seems that most of the cavalry charges against Aiel that we see in the books are either a) light cavalry, b) piecemeal and disorganised, c) ludicrously outnumbered, d) defeated by the Aielmen's superhuman speed, reflexes, strength, willpower and courage or e) all of the above.

Adderbane

2016-06-25, 08:48 PM

Aiel are disciplined and mobile enough that pinning them down for a major charge is near impossible. The only way to hit them is when they're distracted by a stationary target; such as at Cairheinian and Dumai's Wells. Also randland calvary tends to be nobles who overestimate themselves and underestimate Aiel "savages".

Really I think the Aiels strength is that they're really hard to ambush and really good at ambushing.

lord_khaine

2016-06-26, 03:57 AM

Seerow

2016-06-26, 10:24 AM

it would then in part explain how they beat minor groups, but by all right they should get crushed in larger engagements and when attacking fortified positions.

Though at the same time, it does sound like armor is more or less nonexistant in the setting? I dont really recall hearing any references to it.
And if everyone runs around with just a sword like it were a junior larp, then i better understand how the Aiel are crushing everyone.

No Armor seems to be a main character conceit rather than a general setting one. At the very least I know that there was a Mat chapter where it mentioned rumors were spreading about him having some sort of supernatural protection because he doesn't wear armor into battle; and soldiers are regularly described having breastplates or mail. Though I don't think anyone uses full plate.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-26, 11:18 AM

No Armor seems to be a main character conceit rather than a general setting one. At the very least I know that there was a Mat chapter where it mentioned rumors were spreading about him having some sort of supernatural protection because he doesn't wear armor into battle; and soldiers are regularly described having breastplates or mail. Though I don't think anyone uses full plate.

Yeah, Jordan seemed to be quite careful about describing armour, particularly once the Legion of the Dragon and second wave of Seanchan come into the story; I get the impression he points out lacking or substandard armour in order to demonstrate the economic situation of various groups.

It was mentioned that the Shienaran '"heavy cavalry" is the best in the world; considering that their armies are apparently composed entirely of 'lances', it seems a fair bet that they wear full plate. This image (http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/wot/images/e/e2/Shienaran_saliba.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20091219025721) (from the wiki) seems quite reasonable, but I don't know if that really counts as full plate.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-26, 11:20 AM

it would then in part explain how they beat minor groups, but by all right they should get crushed in larger engagements and when attacking fortified positions.

Because they are so stealthy that the Borderlander's who are outright the singular best fighting force can not find them unless the Aiel -want them to- they don't get crushed in large engagements or when attacking fortified positions because they win the fight before anyone else knows the fight is on.

That is the one problem I had with Aviendah's visions in book 12 I think it was..How in the holy crud did The Seanchan win against the Aiel? The Aiel could have very easily taken apart the Seanchan's biggest advantage through stealth tactics. Of course..with what the Main Girls learn off the Forsaken..I wonder how the Seanchan empire manages to exist a decade after the end of the last battle.

georgie_leech

2016-06-26, 11:44 AM

Because they are so stealthy that the Borderlander's who are outright the singular best fighting force can not find them unless the Aiel -want them to- they don't get crushed in large engagements or when attacking fortified positions because they win the fight before anyone else knows the fight is on.

That is the one problem I had with Aviendah's visions in book 12 I think it was..How in the holy crud did The Seanchan win against the Aiel? The Aiel could have very easily taken apart the Seanchan's biggest advantage through stealth tactics. Of course..with what the Main Girls learn off the Forsaken..I wonder how the Seanchan empire manages to exist a decade after the end of the last battle.

Quick and Stealthy is not at all the same as being perfect. As Dumai's Wells demonstrated so eloquently, the Power is used as a weapon, it's brutally effective. All you need is a few seconds of visibility. The Aiel are good, but not 'rout armies in seconds' good.

The_Snark

2016-06-26, 01:02 PM

That is the one problem I had with Aviendah's visions in book 12 I think it was..How in the holy crud did The Seanchan win against the Aiel? The Aiel could have very easily taken apart the Seanchan's biggest advantage through stealth tactics. Of course..with what the Main Girls learn off the Forsaken..I wonder how the Seanchan empire manages to exist a decade after the end of the last battle.

Because the Aiel are in decline, that's why. In that vision, the Aiel had been at peace and away from the Three-Fold Land for something like twenty years? Long enough that there's a generation or two of Aiel who didn't grow up with the constant raiding, water feuds, and hostile environment that defined Aiel culture in the Waste. They assume they're the best warriors in the world, but they can't really back up that claim anymore. We see something similar happen with the Shaido in later books: outside their ancestral home and without a good leader, they sort of fall apart... and Aviendha's granddaugher, at least, reminded me a lot of Sevanna.

There's also the simple fact that the Seanchan have far more experience than anyone else fielding channelers in battle, which is a big deal. The Aiel do end up using Wise Ones to fight, but they're learning as they go; the Seanchan have been doing it for centuries. They also seem to be better-trained and organized than most other armies...

... on which note, it must be said that the Aiel established their reputation against somewhat less-than-stellar enemies. They're good at asymmetrical warfare, and they're good at playing to their strengths, and they've been able to parlay that into some pretty impressive victories. But Tairen/Cairhienin/Andoran/etc nobles are pretty consistently depicted as overconfident and unimaginative, which means easy to take advantage of. Borderlanders are better about this, but the typical conflict with Aiel is a border skirmish and that's where the Aiel excel. (Even then, they respect Borderlanders as something close to worthy enemies.) They held their ground in the Trolloc Wars, which is impressive, but they were defending their home ground and Trollocs rely on numbers and raw strength more skill or discipline - that's close to ideal conditions for Aiel.

When they went up against the Seanchan, I suspect they forgot a lot of this. The new generation of Aiel believed that they were just naturally better than everyone else, and they paid for that mistake, just like those Cairhienin/Tairen/etc nobles before them did.

Aeson

2016-06-26, 01:26 PM

Regarding the current spoiler topic:
Also remember that the Seanchan have airborne scouts whereas the Aiel are accustomed to hiding from traditional land-based scouts. Some things which are invisible from the ground may well be perfectly obvious from above, and my impression is that in the vision of the future that Aviendha saw the Aiel didn't have a lot of time to learn how to hide from airborne scouts before they were crushed. You could maybe argue that they get some experience in doing so against the drahkgar or whatever the flying darkspawn are called, but the drahkgar don't show up that often from what I recall.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-26, 01:54 PM

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-26, 08:07 PM

Quick and Stealthy is not at all the same as being perfect. As Dumai's Wells demonstrated so eloquently, the Power is used as a weapon, it's brutally effective. All you need is a few seconds of visibility. The Aiel are good, but not 'rout armies in seconds' good.

Dumai's Well's was a crap show from the Aiel Side, The Aiel stealth abilities outright vanish after book 4, The Aiel stayed in Tear for days with the only notice of them being "Rumors of footpads" and Julin Sandar being like "There is something up here, I can't see it but I know it is up here"

The Power as a weapon is effective but as we are constantly reminded "You can't channel if you get an arrow in you before you see your foe" which we see in effect twice in the entire series.

Psyren

2016-06-26, 10:51 PM

Seerow

2016-06-26, 11:44 PM

As noted above, its not just channeling:

The Seanchan have literal monsters at their disposal too. Even discounting the obvious tactical advantage of flight, who knows what other abilities/senses they have? When your lizard mounts can sniff out Aiel scouts and your bird ones can spot them from the sky, you lose your main advantage.

Also, Aiel channelers might as well be stuck with the Three Oaths for how often they actually use their powers in battle. They're not prohibited from doing so, but neither are they experienced enough to combine their abilities with military strikes the way Seanchan are.

One thing noted in Aviendha's visions was the turning point of the war against the Seanchan was when the other nations got dragged in. Because that led to Seanchan beginning to capture damane from every other nation on the continent. Not to mention wise ones themselves being captured. That's what's always been scary about the Seanchan. Not only are they brutally efficient, but they have the ability to turn your assets against you. Channelers most obviously so, but you can also see how the Seanchan came in and took over Tarabon and Altarans, not just subjugating the locals, but converting them to their side, integrating them into the empire and utilizing their armies (even recruiting from the general populace).

That capability is what lets them spread so quickly and what makes them so truly intimidating to go up against. Even then, the Aeil hold out in the war for literally multiple generations, to the point where aeil are born and die in an age where they know nothing except the war against the Seanchan. While they do end up dominated, the fact that they held out as long as they did is impressive.

Corvus

2016-06-27, 03:32 AM

georgie_leech

2016-06-27, 04:50 AM

Speaking of the Aiel - how do people pronounce it? It took me the longest time to realise I was doing it wrong and I still do. Apparently it is meant to be pronounced as eye-EEL. I always read it as Ay-el (sort of like the drink). I've read it taht way so long now I just can't not read it that way.

Likewise, for a while. Turns out if you consciously practice reading it the 'proper' way you start overwriting that pattern.

Still working on pronouncing it EYEZ and not not EYE-ez or (rhymes with day) EH-ez Sedai though.:smalltongue:

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-27, 05:24 AM

Speaking of the Aiel - how do people pronounce it? It took me the longest time to realise I was doing it wrong and I still do. Apparently it is meant to be pronounced as eye-EEL. I always read it as Ay-el (sort of like the drink). I've read it taht way so long now I just can't not read it that way.

I read it as 'ail' before I checked the glossary. Then I read the rest of the glossary and decided to ignore all of Jordan's pronunciations, because none of them make any sense. In my head, I hear AZE SE-dai, NIGH-nive, al-thor, AN-grey-al, ah-ram (the Tinker boy), KAIR-HEEN and... holy Björk, I just realised I'm pronouncing Saidin and Saidar wrong as well! I had them as two syllables! :smalleek:

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-27, 07:51 AM

Seerow

2016-06-27, 10:28 AM

In my head Aeil is Ayeil, Aes Sedai is Ace Said-eye

holy Björk, I just realised I'm pronouncing Saidin and Saidar wrong as well! I had them as two syllables!

I don't even know how this is supposed to work.

georgie_leech

2016-06-27, 10:44 AM

In my head Aeil is Ayeil, Aes Sedai is Ace Said-eye

I don't even know how this is supposed to work.

Sah-i-DEEN and sah-i-DAHR. A bunch of the words are basically 'pronounce every vowel, no matter how weird.' Except sometimes not.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-27, 10:46 AM

I don't even know how this is supposed to work.

Jordan has them pronounced as if they had apostrophes, like Sa'i'din and Sa'i'dar, or something. The man was crazy...

Psyren

2016-06-27, 10:48 AM

I don't even know how this is supposed to work.

Intended pronounciation:

sah-ih-DEEN
sah-ih-DAHR

What Ninja_Prawn was (probably) doing:

SEYE-din
SEYE-dar

georgie_leech

2016-06-27, 10:49 AM

Jordan has them pronounced as if they had apostrophes, like Sa'i'din and Sa'i'dar, or something. The man was crazy...

I don't think anyone ever read his books for his melodious sounding Old Tongue :smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-27, 11:02 AM

What Ninja_Prawn was (probably) doing:

SEYE-din
SEYE-dar

Yeah, pretty much. I'd have spelled it as 'SIGH' for clarity, but it's basically the same.

Also, that's the wrong tense, because I will continue to do so! No one tells me what to do!! :smalltongue:

An Enemy Spy

2016-06-27, 08:03 PM

Chapter 22: Watchers
We join Moiraine near some crappy little village where two old Aes Sedai live that have gathered an immense amount of secret knowledge that will be helpful in predicting what will come in the future. She and Lan exposit on the day they met just in case some invisible audience happened to be in the room with them and it involved him throwing her in a pond. I'm sure we'll see more of that scene whenever I read New Spring. After I've finished the series? I don't know, prequels can be tricky like that.

Moiraine has made arrangements in the White Tower that if something happens to her, Lan will be passed on to another Aes Sedai, a Green Ajah named Myrelle who already has three Warders of her own? How exactly do the Warders work anyway? Does an Aes Sedai just single out out some hapless dope and say "You're bonded to me now, deal with it."? From the sounds of it, Lan has no actual choice in the matter of bonding with Myrelle, and he clearly doesn't like the idea of it. And why does she get three Warders? Does every Aes Sedai have a Warder? I demand answers, Robert Jordan! Anyway, in the event of Moiraine's death, Lan will feel a compulsion to join Myrelle, and then Myrelle will choose somebody else to pass him off to. She doesn't say it outright, but she's most likely planning to have him paired up with Nynaeve when her training is complete. He doesn't like this very much, but Moiraine can basically do whatever she wants with him and he has to obey, which I guess means that the Aes Sedai engage in slavery. Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen.

After Moiraine is done admonishing her slave, she has a conversation with Vandene, one of the Aes Sedai whose house she is in. She pumps her for info about the Dragon while trying not to give away what she's actually after. Here's what we learn. Five Riders will go north and four will come back, and the Dragon will proclaim himself in either Toman Head, Arad Doman, or Saldea, which are all on the west coast. The finding of the Horn of Valere means that the Last Battle is coming, so watch out for any donkeys in lionskin. The Dark One's monsters fear anything that comes from Shadar Logoth, so there's no reason why they'd take the dagger with them, which we already know. Lanfear is linked to Lews Therin, which we already know. When the Dragon Reborn is announced, they can't risk gentling him before he defeats Shai'tan, but the Aes Sedai will have to get rid of him before he can cause another Breaking of the World.

Moiraine goes outside and gets attacked by a Drakghar. Lousy random encounters. she won't have time to use her powerful magic on it before it kills her, but Lan and Vandene's Warder Jaem show up and skewer it with their puny swords and useless muscles, and somewhere far away the Amyrlin Seat feels like a jackass but doesn't know why.

The only way a Drakghar could have gotten this close without them sensing is if someone was giving it supernatural aid. Which only means one thing... the Black Ajah!

We've covered what the Black Ajah are, right? They're evil Aes Sedai that secretly work for the Dark One in case you don't know what makes them significant and are confused by that startling revelation. Okay, now that we've gone over that important exposition, you can be properly shocked now.

The only way a Drakghar could have gotten this close without them sensing is if someone was giving it supernatural aid. Which only means one thing... the Black Ajah!

Adderbane

2016-06-27, 08:27 PM

Many AES Sedai have Warders, though Reds do not and Greens often have multiple. The Warder bond can be used to compel obedience but that is rare and frowned upon. (I think Lan mentions this is the first time Moiraine has done this).

As for the origin of Warders, qualified men can train in Tar Valon, you'll see more later. Bonding a man against his will is something akin to rape.

Douglas

2016-06-27, 08:37 PM

Bonding a man against his will is something akin to rape.
And is frowned upon to a similar degree. It's been done in the past, but is now considered a very serious crime and would require extreme extenuating circumstances to excuse it.

Lan agreed to the bond when Moiraine offered it, and knew even then that it meant accepting she would effectively be his boss. What Moiraine's doing now... Lan may not like it, and it is a bit morally grey, but it's an unfortunate consequence of the bond that if she dies he will automatically go suicidally vengeful. She's trying to mitigate that, in light of the realization that her untimely death seems increasingly likely in the near future, what with Myrdraal and Draghkar routinely attacking near her.

Adderbane

2016-06-27, 08:51 PM

What Moiraine's doing now... Lan may not like it, and it is a bit morally grey, but it's an unfortunate consequence of the bond that if she dies he will automatically go suicidally vengeful. She's trying to mitigate that, in light of the realization that her untimely death seems increasingly likely in the near future, what with Myrdraal and Draghkar routinely attacking near her.

And Lan already has the whole hopeless vengeance quest going with Malkier, so she's basically telling him he's too important to die even if it's the honorable thing to do.

Most men tell stories about Warders. Warders tell stories about Lan.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-27, 10:21 PM

And Lan already has the whole hopeless vengeance quest going with Malkier, so she's basically telling him he's too important to die even if it's the honorable thing to do.

Most men tell stories about Warders. Warders tell stories about Lan.

Lets take that up a bigger Notch.

Those Super Human Aiel? there they consider "wetlanders" to be as a whole weak and pathetic.

Those guys have a specific name for Lan

Aan'allein. Translates as "The one Man Alone" and "The man who is an entire nation" Yes Lan was so awesome in the Aiel War..that they gave him his own name.

Douglas

2016-06-27, 10:50 PM

Trollocs call the Aiel Waste "The Dying Ground" because of how many of them die when they go there. They'd still rather go there than face Lan.

Lan once rode alone through open countryside, and an immense army spontaneously materialized to follow him.

Ishamael, mightiest of the Forsaken, fought the Dragon Reborn several times. He never dared fight Lan.

Demandred, second mightiest of the Forsaken, thought he knew better, and fought Lan. That's how Demandred died.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-27, 10:58 PM

Seerow

2016-06-27, 11:03 PM

The sad thing is you can't tell which of those actually happened..and are chuck norris style facts.

All of them are technically true. Which is the best kind of true.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-27, 11:11 PM

All of them are technically true. Which is the best kind of true.

The first one is Arguable, I don't recall too many moments Trollocs Run from Lan..Lan just puts himself against Fades more often than not and..I don't think it is wise to ever get involved with that fight.

Seerow

2016-06-28, 12:07 AM

The first one is Arguable, I don't recall too many moments Trollocs Run from Lan..Lan just puts himself against Fades more often than not and..I don't think it is wise to ever get involved with that fight.

Or do the Fades fight Lan because they can't Push the Trollocs into attacking him? Makes you think...

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-28, 01:33 AM

Or do the Fades fight Lan because they can't Push the Trollocs into attacking him? Makes you think...

I always presumed that Lan makes a B line to the most dangerous shadowspawn he can find.

lord_khaine

2016-06-28, 03:14 AM

I really think we should stop giving spoilers to the serie, just because a question pops up that is not imidiatly answered in the same chapter. Odds are it will get adressed a little later in the same book.

Feytalist

2016-06-28, 03:31 AM

The sad thing is you can't tell which of those actually happened..and are chuck norris style facts.

The second one is extremely arguable. The army was engineered to join up with him. It only materialised from his viewpoint, and even then he knew something was up.

I really think we should stop giving spoilers to the serie, just because a question pops up that is not imidiatly answered in the same chapter. Odds are it will get adressed a little later in the same book.

Well, I mean, that's what the spoiler tags are for. And when a previously spoilered event pops up, we do mention it in visible chat, as far as I recall.

Anyway, I believe we agreed in the previous thread that this is a good place for WOT discussion in general. AES drives the discussion with his read, and is free to ignore the spoiler tags at his discretion :smallbiggrin:

Ninja_Prawn

2016-06-28, 03:37 AM

Most men tell stories about Warders. Warders tell stories about Lan.

And Lan? Lan doesn't tell stories. He writes them... in the blood of his enemies!

lord_khaine

2016-06-28, 03:56 AM

Well, I mean, that's what the spoiler tags are for. And when a previously spoilered event pops up, we do mention it in visible chat, as far as I recall.

Anyway, I believe we agreed in the previous thread that this is a good place for WOT discussion in general. AES drives the discussion with his read, and is free to ignore the spoiler tags at his discretion

Yes, thats why i pointed it out when we began giving information outside of spoiler blocks.

The_Snark

2016-06-28, 04:02 AM

ryuplaneswalker

2016-06-28, 04:16 AM

The second one is extremely arguable. The army was engineered to join up with him. It only materialised from his viewpoint, and even then he knew something was up.

That is only because Nyneave knew he would try to hide what he was doing. Agglemar outright states that if he were to ever raise the golden crane that he would have the entire borderlands behind him.

If he had done the same thing at any point in the series and let it known that he was heading to the gap, the exact same thing would have happen The only thing that stopped the army from being larger..was the borderlanders having taken the majority of their armies south.

Psyren

2016-06-28, 09:36 AM

I'm sure we'll see more of that scene whenever I read New Spring. After I've finished the series? I don't know, prequels can be tricky like that.

I would read New Spring either after Book 4 or 5. Trust me, you don't want to leave it until the end.

He doesn't like this very much, but Moiraine can basically do whatever she wants with him and he has to obey, which I guess means that the Aes Sedai engage in slavery. Our heroes, ladies and gentlemen.

This is more reason for you to read New Spring. Suffice to say he signed up voluntarily and knowingly.

Although, yes, Moiraine is being a little bit vindictive here.

The only way a Drakghar could have gotten this close without them sensing is if someone was giving it supernatural aid. Which only means one thing... the Black Ajah!

This is one thing about this scene that I always found weird:

Even if you could mask the shadowspawn's taint such that a channeler can't see it, the Black Ajah explicitly don't know how to invert weaves yet. How could you ward something with saidar such that a saidar channeler can't sense it, but also can't notice a big fat weave on top?

Douglas

2016-06-28, 09:43 AM

This is one thing about this scene that I always found weird:

Even if you could mask the shadowspawn's taint such that a channeler can't see it, the Black Ajah explicitly don't know how to invert weaves yet. How could you ward something with saidar such that a saidar channeler can't sense it, but also can't notice a big fat weave on top?
Well, she was in a place where multiple other Aes Sedai lived, maybe she did sense it and just assumed it was something innocuous from one of them?

Alternatively, they don't have general purpose inverting yet but specific hide-from-detection wards are designed to hide themselves as well.

Seerow

2016-06-28, 10:08 AM

I believe lord_khaine was referring to the explanation of the Warder bond and how Aes Sedai use it or don't use it, most of which comes from later books. It's more of a setting spoiler than a plot spoiler, but still arguably a spoiler.

Personally I tend to only consider plot spoilers, general setting information that everyone in the books know, but just hasn't been explained to the reader yet, should be fair game to share. Of course it's TES's thread so I'd say his call.

Traab

2016-06-28, 10:33 AM

There is a reason Lan doesnt have children. In place of genitalia, he has another heron mark sword.

Its been theorized that Lan's tears could have cleansed the male half of the source at any time. Its too bad he never cried for them to test it.

Its said that lans sword is so sharp, it doesnt cut flesh, flesh is just running away from its edge in terror.

Its said Lan has to practice his sword forms in private, because anyone observing instantly becomes pregnant.

Yes, even the men.

Wookieetank

2016-06-28, 11:00 AM

Its said Lan has to practice his sword forms in private, because anyone observing instantly becomes pregnant.

Yes, even the men.

Would explain some of Rand's wild mood swings, what with being trained by Lan and all...:smallwink::smalltongue:

An Enemy Spy

2016-07-10, 12:41 AM

Chapter 23: The Testing
We're back at Hogwarts and Nynaeve is being led into a chamber underground by Sheriam the Mistress of Novices where several Aes Sedai of different colors wait. In the center of the room is a big silver ring with three arches coming out of it and a table with three chalices filled with water. It's a ter'angreal, a magical artifact from the Age of Legends, which is where all cool things come because the world has been a giant pile of crap since then. The Aes Sedai only know what a few of them actually do and they're not really all that eager to try some of them out, because messing around with mysterious magical artifacts can have messy results, as anyone who's played the Tomb of Horrors can attest to. This one will bring Nynaeve face to face with her greatest fears, so it was probably invented as some kind of entertainment system back in the day, like a magical horror game. Unfortunately, this game was made by Activision so it can literally kill you if you're not careful. Nynaeve will have to make three trips, one for the past, one for the present, and one for the future. In each trip she will have to face her greatest fear in each of those categories, and she will only have one opportunity to escape or she'll be trapped in the ter'angreal forever. And you thought your midterms sucked.

The Aes Sedai tell Nynaeve tell Nynaeve that once she starts the process, she has to go all the way to end and if she wants to stop she'll be thrown out on her ass with a bag of silver and and a thank you for your interest, and that will be the end of her magical education. Well, Nynaeve is driven by the most noble of motivations(petty spite) and she's not about to turn back now, so bring it on she says. They strip her naked(a quick Google search tells me that Nynaeve is twenty six years old so it's okay to like this chapter) and steps through the arch.

Nynaeve is naked in a stone maze. The ter'angreal messes around with her perception of reality here, so she doesn't really remember that she's doing the test here, but she does vaguely remember that the way out will only appear once. She wanders around for a bit and runs into Aginor. Good, maybe he can tell her what the scary thing she's going to face is. Oh, it's him? Okay then. He tells her she's a pretty one and he's gonna have some with her. which is... uncomfortable to say the least. She runs and he chases and she finds herself reaching for Saidar and blasts him with with lightning. He must not be a Water or Flying type because the attack is not very effective and only knocks him on his ass for a couple seconds before he gets back up, so she blasts the stone above him and drops heavy rocks on him. Aginor is either a Bug, Fire, or Ice type because this does the trick and gets him to run away, and now it's Nynaeve who's the pursuer. Man, if only Aginor were this much of a wuss back in Book 1, things would have been much easier. Her lightning is blasting the walls and a section of stone falls away to reveal the silver arch that will take her back. She doesn't want to let him go because she knows he'll regather his strength and come back to kill her if she doesn't finish him off(remember that she doesn't remember that this is a test right now), but she goes through the arch to kill whoever put her and ends up back in the room.

She tells the Aes Sedai what happened and they say that you're not supposed to be able to use the Power inside the ter'angreal, but Nynaeve is a Main Character and that means she gets to piss all over the supposed rules of the universe that all the side characters are bound by like the true hero she is. Don't channel in there again, they say. Bad things happen to people who go in there with magical wards on. Well that was a harrowing experience wasn't it? Now get back in there.

This time Nynaeve shows up in Emond's Field and the place has gone to crap. Without her as the Wisdom some lady named Malena has taken the role. Egwene's dad Bran is dead and now Cenn Buie is the man in charge of the village council, but Malena is the one who really runs the place. She's a real stinker, abusing people and when Bran and Haral told her it was time to get lost she accused them of being Darkfriends and they both got sick and she gave them poison pretending it was medicine. Obviously this vision is a result of Nynaeve's fear that without her around, the village can't function. Malena sees her and comes after her, and despite Nynaeve's desire send her out of town in several small boxes, she leaves when the arch appears.

The narration goes straight from this scene to the third trip into the ter'angreal with no transitory scene in between them, but I think we can assume that Nynaeve did end up back in the room and just went on to the next arch without anything notable happening. The third place she finds herself in a very different sort of vision than the last two, and in it's own way far more insidious. Nynaeve is older now and married to Lan, and they are the King and Queen of Malkier, restored to its former glory. They have children and everything is wonderful and she really, really doesn't want to leave. There's nothing scary about this place, but I think the fear here is that this future will never happen. Well, Nynaeve has to leave (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV1giYzoo-c) despite Lan's protests (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU3Afo37DXs) and she runs away crying. She forms the blossoming flower bud in her mind and makes it thorny and sharp and imagines it cutting her skin, and when she spills out on the floor screaming how much she hates the Aes Sedai, they find a thorn impaling the palm of each of her hands. Ow! Jeez, that is gotta be so freaking painful, but they just brush it off like it's nothing.

They pour water over and symbolically wash away her old identity and raise her into the ranks of the Accepted.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 05:02 AM

He must not be a Water or Flying type because the attack is not very effective and only knocks him on his ass for a couple seconds before he gets back up, so she blasts the stone above him and drops heavy rocks on him. Aginor is either a Bug, Fire, or Ice type because this does the trick and gets him to run away,

Bug. Aginor is definitely a bug type.

Adaon Nightwind

2016-07-10, 07:14 AM

Ouch. That brings back memories. I felt so bad for the main girls during their training.

Even way stronger then later, when Nynaeve was trained by the sea folk, or the time of the Two Amyrlins (that correct?) when Egwene was held in the White Tower as a Novice, despite her actual status then.

See that, G.R.R.M.? You can be totally mean to your main characters without killing them all the time. Man, i would like to reread the series now as well, but i do not have the time for it.. Thanks for this Thread :)

Qwertystop

2016-07-10, 07:16 AM

Wait, what? (Re: narration going straight from second to third test) I distinctly remember her reaction to the end of the second - something about "Tell me it was not real"and"I left my people to die".

Psyren

2016-07-10, 08:20 AM

They strip her naked(a quick Google search tells me that Nynaeve is twenty six years old so it's okay to like this chapter) and steps through the arch.

It's your prerogative of course, but I strongly suggest just asking us this stuff - googling the characters can expose you to spoilers extremely quickly. (I see a few big ones just from googling her name.)

She tells the Aes Sedai what happened and they say that you're not supposed to be able to use the Power inside the ter'angreal, but Nynaeve is a Main Character and that means she gets to piss all over the supposed rules of the universe that all the side characters are bound by like the true hero she is. Don't channel in there again, they say. Bad things happen to people who go in there with magical wards on. Well that was a harrowing experience wasn't it? Now get back in there.

Another thing I thought was weird:

Egwene channels in there too (and of course remembers being able to channel), both of which Sheriam says should not be possible. But Sheriam doesn't warn Egwene about that. We now know of course that Sheriam is Black - was she simply wrong, or outright lying to try and get Nynaeve killed or Egwene Turned?

From Rand's POV in AMOL, we learn that a successful Turning in an alternate reality can stick, just like one that happens in the real world. This makes sense - even in a fake reality, your soul is still really there. Could this be what happened to some of the original Black Ajah? They did their testing but came out evil? Man, this thing puts the Sorting Hat to shame.

The narration goes straight from this scene to the third trip into the ter'angreal with no transitory scene in between them, but I think we can assume that Nynaeve did end up back in the room and just went on to the next arch without anything notable happening.

Are you sure two pages didn't get stuck together here or something?

Ouch. That brings back memories. I felt so bad for the main girls during their training.

Even way stronger then later, when Nynaeve was trained by the sea folk, or the time of the Two Amyrlins (that correct?) when Egwene was held in the White Tower as a Novice, despite her actual status then.

See that, G.R.R.M.? You can be totally mean to your main characters without killing them all the time. Man, i would like to reread the series now as well, but i do not have the time for it.. Thanks for this Thread :)

Concerning Egwene:
That wasn't actually training, that was meant to be punishment. Yeah she was technically taking classes, but they couldn't teach her a damn thing by that point. She makes this abundantly clear in one class where she shows up her "teacher."

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 08:25 AM

See that, G.R.R.M.? You can be totally mean to your main characters without killing them all the time. Man, i would like to reread the series now as well, but i do not have the time for it.. Thanks for this Thread :)

Off topic, but I think that's an unfair criticism of GRRM. He deliberately set out to play with the Plot Armour trope when he wrote ASOIAF, and his other stories (like the Dunk and Egg ones) indicate that he is perfectly capable of writing without doing that. It annoys me when people focus solely on how "ASOIAF is so great because anyone can die", because there's a lot more going on (in a literary sense) in those books that they seem to be missing.

An Enemy Spy

2016-07-10, 09:24 AM

Seeing as how GRRM has only permanently killed off two of the main heroes, one of whom wasn't even a POV character, I think the whole idea that he just callously murders all his characters whenever he feels like it is really annoying. Of the twenty four POV characters in the series not counting the prologues and epilogues, twenty of them are still alive and the four dead ones, one hasn't been confirmed to be dead and there's plenty of reason to believe his death was faked, and the other has been heavily set up to come back to life soon.

Gnoman

2016-07-10, 10:37 AM

As mentioned, there is a rather expository passage between the second and third trip, which explains the purpose of the tests. They show what the candidate fears about becoming an Aes Sedai - while it isn't spelled out, we can infer that in this case the first test is simple physical danger, the second is fear of having to turn back on her duty, and the third is having to turn her back on love.

There's also an extremely important explanation of the Three Oaths near the start of this chapter.

Traab

2016-07-10, 10:40 AM

Honestly, I love those arches, and the ones the lads go through in, I think, book 4. When Matt is busy pissing off the seer lizard people or whatever they are by asking WAY more than three questions and they keep crying out over the savor of everything, and they basically destroyed the freaking terangreal by having all three taveren inside it at the same time without realizing it iirc. It was an awesome scene. Also, the one where rand gets to see the history of the aeil and we get to see the rival chief guy slowly going insane in snapshots.

Honestly though, what you said about the real purpose being a horror game or whatever really does make you wonder what the true purpose of so many of these ancient objects truly are. For all these idiots know, they are using it in a completely backward manner and the real reason its so dangerous is because they dont know how to use it right, so they are basically trying to shift a truck without a clutch and grinding the heck out of its gears.

Douglas

2016-07-10, 10:53 AM

I don't think this is ever explicitly clarified, so this is more speculation than spoilers:

I think the whole "channeling is dangerous in there" thing is really just the Aes Sedai stupidly interpreting it in an overly simplistic way. The ter'angreal they're using creates a scenario to subject the test subject to. Breaking the scenario, not channeling, is dangerous - it just so happens that most of the scenarios it comes up with involve the test subject not being able to channel, probably because most of its scenarios are either set in a time period when the subject couldn't channel or is testing a character trait where channeling would trivialize the test. Successfully facing down one of the Forsaken and then having to choose whether to give up pursuing him is *ahem* NOT something that would be relevant or the least bit plausible to most candidates.

An Enemy Spy

2016-07-10, 10:55 AM

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 12:06 PM

For all these idiots know, they are using it in a completely backward manner and the real reason its so dangerous is because they don't know how to use it right, so they are basically trying to shift a truck without a clutch and grinding the heck out of its gears.

I get that feeling strongly in relation to the Oath Rod. Is it ever revealed to have a 'true' purpose?

Ashen Lilies

2016-07-10, 12:12 PM

I get that feeling strongly in relation to the Oath Rod. Is it ever revealed to have a 'true' purpose?

From what I remember, it's a punitive/law enforcement device. It's was basically used on the worst criminals to compel them into not committing crimes again. Graendal(?) and Sammael(?) (can't remember which two Forsaken exactly) discuss it when they give a copy to the Shaido Wise Ones.

Douglas

2016-07-10, 12:24 PM

From what I remember, it's a punitive/law enforcement device. It's was basically used on the worst criminals to compel them into not committing crimes again. Graendal(?) and Sammael(?) (can't remember which two Forsaken exactly) discuss it when they give a copy to the Shaido Wise Ones.
That's correct. Crimes by channelers beyond a certain severity in the Age of Legends were punished by a sentence of being required to swear an oath on one of the many Oath Rods they had (they made the things, they could make however many they wanted to) to never repeat the crime. The criminal's life span being cut in half by the oath was part of the punishment.

Semirhage was once given that sentence for torturing the people she healed, and to escape that punishment is part of why she joined the Shadow.

Traab

2016-07-10, 12:42 PM

That's correct. Crimes by channelers beyond a certain severity in the Age of Legends were punished by a sentence of being required to swear an oath on one of the many Oath Rods they had (they made the things, they could make however many they wanted to) to never repeat the crime. The criminal's life span being cut in half by the oath was part of the punishment.

Semirhage was once given that sentence for torturing the people she healed, and to escape that punishment is part of why she joined the Shadow.

Heh, you gotta love it. Only the freaking aes sedai would take a device meant to punish the most dangerous and untrustworthy criminals of the age of legends by literally forcing them to obey and turn it into their standard method of accepting new recruits. And wait, life cut in half? Please tell me that was the punishment for breaking the oath, and not a part of the oath itself.

The New Bruceski

2016-07-10, 01:10 PM

As mentioned, there is a rather expository passage between the second and third trip, which explains the purpose of the tests. They show what the candidate fears about becoming an Aes Sedai - while it isn't spelled out, we can infer that in this case the first test is simple physical danger, the second is fear of having to turn back on her duty, and the third is having to turn her back on love.

Since the subject needs to turn away from what they're seeing to return to the real world, I think you're right about the second and third but I think the first trial would be less fear of danger and more a fear of letting danger stay out there. Her role before now has been "keeping those kids safe" after all.

georgie_leech

2016-07-10, 01:15 PM

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 01:43 PM

Gnoman

2016-07-10, 02:00 PM

Heh, you gotta love it. Only the freaking aes sedai would take a device meant to punish the most dangerous and untrustworthy criminals of the age of legends by literally forcing them to obey and turn it into their standard method of accepting new recruits. And wait, life cut in half? Please tell me that was the punishment for breaking the oath, and not a part of the oath itself.

Don't forget that the Three Oaths didn't come into play until centuries after the Breaking. They were instituted sometime between the Trolloc Wars (ending 1650 years after the Breaking) and the War of the Hundred Years (starting about 900 years after the Trolloc Wars), meaning that as many as 2000 years might have passed. As the White Tower itself was raised after the Age Of Legends, it is almost certain that the Aes Sedai that instituted the Oaths had no idea what the Binders had been used for originally, and merely had figured out that they made oaths binding. Given that this group of Aes Sedai managed to wield power openly for another thousand years despite distrust because of the Oaths while their counterparts in Shara and Saenchan were not, this certainly seems worthwhile.

lord_khaine

2016-07-10, 02:02 PM

Off topic, but I think that's an unfair criticism of GRRM. He deliberately set out to play with the Plot Armour trope when he wrote ASOIAF, and his other stories (like the Dunk and Egg ones) indicate that he is perfectly capable of writing without doing that. It annoys me when people focus solely on how "ASOIAF is so great because anyone can die", because there's a lot more going on (in a literary sense) in those books that they seem to be missing.

Well.. i kinda feel the reputation were deserved, i stopped reading because it felt like every single character i felt attatched to died soon afterwards.
It got tiresome and so i moved back to WoT, Dresden Files and The Stormlight Saga

Ashen Lilies

2016-07-10, 03:05 PM

Suffice to say, there's a reason why all those other channelers out there that don't swear on the oath rod live much, much longer than Aes Sedai.

It's also the source of the distinct ageless look that Aes Sedai have. Hopefully after Tarmon Gaidon they ended up commissioning Elayne for a version of the Rod without the nasty side-effects.

lord_khaine

2016-07-10, 03:46 PM

Rather unlikely that Elayne could figure that out on her own, she were amazing on just being able to copy things, but i dont recall her making any perfect copies, or even making anything new

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 03:49 PM

Rather unlikely that Elayne could figure that out on her own, she were amazing on just being able to copy things, but i dont recall her making any perfect copies, or even making anything new

It doesn't have to be a perfect copy if she's going to create a Rod that doesn't shorten lifespan. Besides, she has hundreds of years to study and experiment. No reason to think she can't do it.

Anteros

2016-07-10, 04:29 PM

She did eventually make a few perfect copies of the dream rings. Rand probably knows how to make the things too, so he could guide her.

Seppl

2016-07-10, 04:55 PM

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 05:00 PM

Didn't Egwene decree that old Aes Sedai are allowed (and encouraged) to leave the order and join organizations such as the Knitting Circle?

I'm halfway through book 9, and that has just come up a few chapters ago. Elayne mentions that Egwene's plan (not announced to the Hall yet) is to allow old Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths and retired to the Kin. Elayne was like 'why would anyone want to give up being Aes Sedai?', but if it extends your lifespan then I reckon a lot would go for it.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-10, 05:02 PM

Didn't Egwene decree that old Aes Sedai are allowed (and encouraged) to leave the order and join organizations such as the Knitting Circle? Thus allowing them to live a much longer life while also extending Aes Sedai influence over these organizations. Or did that plan not come into effect because Egwene did not have the time to persuade the hall?

We don't know which rules stuck and did not stick after Egwene Anti-Balefired herself into crystal. All we know is Cadsuane got forced into being Amyrlin Seat.

So of course after a week the tower was broken again and the Black Ajah was back.

Traab

2016-07-10, 05:04 PM

I'm halfway through book 9, and that has just come up a few chapters ago. Elayne mentions that Egwene's plan (not announced to the Hall yet) is to allow old Aes Sedai to be released from the oaths and retired to the Kin. Elayne was like 'why would anyone want to give up being Aes Sedai?', but if it extends your lifespan then I reckon a lot would go for it.

Meh, I could see a number of the aes sedai wanting to do that. Not just for a longer lifespan, but because they may be tired of the endless diplomatic visits, running herd on pushy rulers, risking their lives in battle, whatever. The chance to enjoy a peaceful semi retirement while still keeping your abilities would be a tempting one.

lord_khaine

2016-07-10, 05:12 PM

We don't know which rules stuck and did not stick after Egwene Anti-Balefired herself into crystal. All we know is Cadsuane got forced into being Amyrlin Seat.

So of course after a week the tower was broken again and the Black Ajah was back.

I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-10, 05:24 PM

Anteros

2016-07-10, 05:30 PM

I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

It just depends on the scenario. She'd be effective at things like bringing the nations in line and gathering power. Stuff like making peace with the Black Tower? Not so much.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-10, 05:32 PM

I think you mean actually doing its job once more, as Cadsuane is most like the most effective Aes Sedai after Egwene.

Even assuming that Cadsuane is remotely effective, Verin, who is the most effective CHARACTER in the entire series, except for Ishamanel but he had 3 thousand years of doing whatever he wanted with nobody standing in the way so I can't really count him.

However Cadsuane is only effective offscreen. On screen she had one scene of real effectiveness, then about half a dozen of "I get away with crap that nobody else would take for no reason and still manage to not be effective at all."

Ashen Lilies

2016-07-10, 06:08 PM

Meh, I could see a number of the aes sedai wanting to do that. Not just for a longer lifespan, but because they may be tired of the endless diplomatic visits, running herd on pushy rulers, risking their lives in battle, whatever. The chance to enjoy a peaceful semi retirement while still keeping your abilities would be a tempting one.

Plus no more teaching those damned novices!

Very old Aes Sedai are already allowed some form of retirement, as Vandene and Adeleas demonstrate. They pretty much just live in a cottage alone with their warders, pursuing their own studies without much in the way of formal duties, up until Moiraine visits them. IIRC, Vandene and Adeleas are also the two who object to Egwene's proposal somewhat more firmly, because they lived their entire lives under the Three Oaths, so they're going to well die under them, dammit!

Given how radical some of Egwene's proposals are, and what we know of the Aes Sedai being quite conservative as an institution, I'm not sure if we can trust that many of them survive her, even if she is massively respected. I think the Three Oaths are ingrained enough into Aes Sedai identity that being able to give them up is an idea that probably might not gain much traction in the Hall, and even if it does, probably wouldn't be that popular. Bear in mind that Egwene herself starts off a little less than fond of the Three Oaths at the beginning , but comes to believe in them much more ardently after a little more time as Amyrlin.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-11, 01:22 AM

Very old Aes Sedai are already allowed some form of retirement, as Vandene and Adeleas demonstrate. They pretty much just live in a cottage alone with their warders, pursuing their own studies without much in the way of formal duties, up until Moiraine visits them. IIRC, Vandene and Adeleas are also the two who object to Egwene's proposal somewhat more firmly, because they lived their entire lives under the Three Oaths, so they're going to well die under them, dammit!

Given how radical some of Egwene's proposals are, and what we know of the Aes Sedai being quite conservative as an institution, I'm not sure if we can trust that many of them survive her, even if she is massively respected. I think the Three Oaths are ingrained enough into Aes Sedai identity that being able to give them up is an idea that probably might not gain much traction in the Hall, and even if it does, probably wouldn't be that popular. Bear in mind that Egwene herself starts off a little less than fond of the Three Oaths at the beginning , but comes to believe in them much more ardently after a little more time as Amyrlin.

Actually outside of direct commands from the Ajahs or The Amyrlin Seat..Aes Sedai just sort of get to do whatever the heck they want to do.

snowblizz

2016-07-11, 05:24 AM

I'm not sure why, but for some reason I've got in my head the arches operated a bit on the "what was, what is, what could be" spectrum of temptaions. Questioning your sresolve to become, be and remain Aes Sedai.

Psyren

2016-07-11, 09:04 AM

It's also the source of the distinct ageless look that Aes Sedai have. Hopefully after Tarmon Gaidon they ended up commissioning Elayne for a version of the Rod without the nasty side-effects.

Honest question: is it really that bad a side effect though?

I posit that having a lifespan so much longer than the average human just puts you out of touch with their mere mortal concerns. Every single channeler society has stagnated and become set in their ways as a result; The Aiel, Sea Folk, Aes Sedai and Seanchan all have some pretty ridiculous traditions that they cleave to without considering a better way, and the extreme lifespan of their channelers plays a big role in that ideology. The Forsaken are the logical extreme of this - completely set in their ways and enslaved to their passions, each in Verin's words "trying to cry out to daddy for attention the loudest."

No, I think Egwene's idea is much better - while you're an Aes Sedai, you take the oaths (allowing nobility to better trust and work with the mages and the mages to better police their own) and then you can retire into one of the other societies and live outside of the Randland body politic. The lifespan downside means that only those channelers who truly wish to be Servants Of All will be willing to pay that price, and even though 500 years is less than 1000, it's still plenty of time for a human to get a lot of living done. And the shorter lifespan gives at least a little chance for more progressive thinking. The Tower may not be perfect by any means, but it still produced minds like Verin, Moiraine and Cadsuane capable of thinking outside the box/outwitting the Forsaken and the DO himself.

I would modify the Oaths to let Aes Sedai better avoid being enslaved by Seanchan or their Warders sniped by Whitecloaks, but that's about it. (Though I think that the biggest help against these two antagonistic groups post-Tarmon will be the Black Tower.)

It just depends on the scenario. She'd be effective at things like bringing the nations in line and gathering power. Stuff like making peace with the Black Tower? Not so much.

With the Seanchan
still being around and still having regressive views towards channelers (and Tuon's POV even says things like "An Empress is not subject to treaties," a peace accord between the Two Towers is going to be in Cadsuane's best interests in a hurry.

Logain may not trust her (or indeed, many AS), but Min, Elayne and Nynaeve are still alive and should be able to convince him. Rand himself might come out of retirement long enough to nudge things favorably too.

Ashen Lilies

2016-07-11, 02:23 PM

If you think about it, the side effect probably isn't that bad, no. Trying to get an Aes Sedai to accept that is a different matter though.

Psyren

2016-07-11, 03:44 PM

If there was a way to
get the vows without the lifespan reduction,
then you're probably right, few or none of them would object to that. But assuming those things can't be separated, I think most AS would agree with Moiraine's stance i.e. the necessity of the former, even with the drawback, for doing what they need to do for the greater good of the world.

That whole conversation between the two women was pivotal and one of my favorite scenes for understanding the Aes Sedai as an organization.

The_Snark

2016-07-11, 04:21 PM

I posit that having a lifespan so much longer than the average human just puts you out of touch with their mere mortal concerns. Every single channeler society has stagnated and become set in their ways as a result; The Aiel, Sea Folk, Aes Sedai and Seanchan all have some pretty ridiculous traditions that they cleave to without considering a better way, and the extreme lifespan of their channelers plays a big role in that ideology. The Forsaken are the logical extreme of this - completely set in their ways and enslaved to their passions, each in Verin's words "trying to cry out to daddy for attention the loudest."

While I agree with the point in your first sentence, I don't think the setting really supports your assertion. The Aes Sedai have the Three Oaths to make people feel safe and able to trust them, but it doesn't work. They're respected in a few places, but it seems like the majority of people fear and mistrust them. Sure, it's maybe better than it would be if the Tower didn't have those oaths, but... look at the Windfinders and the Wise Ones. Both occupy trusted positions in their society, despite the lack of safeguards like the Oaths. Why? Because they're integrated into their respective societies, rather than locking themselves away in an ivory tower. They don't consider themselves inherently superior to those outside the group: Windfinders are explicitly subordinate to their ship captains (to the point that their social status depends on that of their captain), while the Wise Ones don't differentiate* between channelers and non-channelers.

*In theory, anyway. In practice, I imagine the extended lifespan means channelers are more likely to stick around longer and become seasoned veterans. Living in the Waste probably helps mitigate that...

I don't think the Three Oaths are necessarily a bad idea, and there is something to be said for keeping near-immortals from having undue influence on your government/society; but I feel like the Aes Sedai desperately need to re-examine their culture. The Three Oaths are clearly not enough, and may be sort of missing the point entirely: magically binding laws are no substitute for actual trust.

I have high hopes for Cadsuane as Amyrlin, in that regard. She's good at identifying flaws in other people (despite her inability/unwillingness to do anything about her own), and I think the Tower needs someone pushing them towards reform. Or dragging them towards it kicking and screaming, possibly. :smallwink:

Anteros

2016-07-11, 05:30 PM

The problem with the oaths is that Aes Sedai do everything in their power to subvert the things from the moment they take them and everyone knows it. They serve no purpose because every Aes Sedai ignores the spirit of the thing. Sure, they may not kill you or lie directly, but they'll still trick you, or tie you up in air for a warder to slit your throat. No one trusts their adherence to the oaths. And rightly so.

still being around and still having regressive views towards channelers (and Tuon's POV even says things like "An Empress is not subject to treaties," a peace accord between the Two Towers is going to be in Cadsuane's best interests in a hurry.

Logain may not trust her (or indeed, many AS), but Min, Elayne and Nynaeve are still alive and should be able to convince him. Rand himself might come out of retirement long enough to nudge things favorably too.

She already agreed to release any Damane who wants to go, and Mat is there to keep her from going back on it. If it weren't for Mat I'd agree that there would be trouble, but he takes oaths very seriously and would certainly press Tuon to honor the agreement. For all her protestations, she does usually eventually end up doing what he wants.

Psyren

2016-07-11, 06:18 PM

Siuan said it best:

“Give up?” Siuan laughed. “I’ll be giving up nothing.” Her back straightened, and her voice began to gain strength, and then passion. “The Oaths are what make us more than simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty. The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar . Any wilder can channel. Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the heart of being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining.”

She already agreed to release any Damane who wants to go, and Mat is there to keep her from going back on it. If it weren't for Mat I'd agree that there would be trouble, but he takes oaths very seriously and would certainly press Tuon to honor the agreement. For all her protestations, she does usually eventually end up doing what he wants.

Mat's smart, but it seems that none of the musketeers are ta'veren anymore after what Rand did. How much control can he really have over his wife? Or even if he does hold her to her word, what about her descendants, or upstarts within her empire? Flare-ups are almost certainly going to happen between sul'dam and Aes Sedai again, and the best defense against such are the fact that there are no male a'dam, that the very nature of saidin makes it nearly impossible. So I would fully expect Cadsuane or her successor to come to an accord with Logain a few decades or centuries down the line when everyone's memories are running thin.

anjxed

2016-07-11, 06:59 PM

Does Mat still have his luck even after Tarmon Gaidon. His memories of battle are still there but I'm not sure of his luck. I know the dice stop spinning inside his head though

Anteros

2016-07-11, 07:04 PM

Siuan said it best:

“Give up?” Siuan laughed. “I’ll be giving up nothing.” Her back straightened, and her voice began to gain strength, and then passion. “The Oaths are what make us more than simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty. The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod. They are what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar . Any wilder can channel. Men may look at what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they know it’s true, and they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the heart of being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining.”

Mat's smart, but it seems that none of the musketeers are ta'veren anymore after what Rand did. How much control can he really have over his wife? Or even if he does hold her to her word, what about her descendants, or upstarts within her empire? Flare-ups are almost certainly going to happen between sul'dam and Aes Sedai again, and the best defense against such are the fact that there are no male a'dam, that the very nature of saidin makes it nearly impossible. So I would fully expect Cadsuane or her successor to come to an accord with Logain a few decades or centuries down the line when everyone's memories are running thin.

Why would you assume that? There's no indication of it in the text. The pattern obviously still has some plan for him since it positioned him to marry into the Seanchan and we know Jordan planned a sequel about him. Considering that Rand can still manipulate the pattern and Perrin kept his wolf super powers, I'd imagine that Mat kept his stuff too, although we have no real proof either way.

Does Mat still have his luck even after Tarmon Gaidon. His memories of battle are still there but I'm not sure of his luck. I know the dice stop spinning inside his head though

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

An Enemy Spy

2016-07-11, 08:03 PM

Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies
We're still at Hogwarts, but instead of boring Inception style vision quests with action and a deep look at the mindset of our heroes, we get some girls gossiping about boys and complaining about washing dishes! Phew, and here I was afraid we were going to be stuck reading about a frantic chase across the continent for an artifact of incredible power or slog through the political intrigues of Cairhien while woorying about Padan Fain and his lackeys catching up with Rand. Thank goodness I get to regale you with tales of Egwene lusting after Galad two pages after she thinks that Rand should wear horns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuckold) because he once met another girl. Oh, Egwene, you're such a character.

I hate you.

Anyway, blah blah blah, Elayne is there as a novice, Min is there because the Aes Sedai wants her to use her vision powers to tell her what's going to happen in the future, Elayne likes Rand because I guess having a guy fall into your yard and then leave ten minutes later counts as true love, Gawyn and Galad are there, Galad is hot but also a jerk, that girl Else who was in Book One for a single chapter is at Hogwarts now and she also has the hots for Rand, Elaida and Logain are there and Logain is sad because the Aes Sedai gentled him, Min says Elayne will have to share her husband with two other women and that someone else's hand is gonna get cut off(I'm guessing both the husband and the one handed guy are Rand, since you know, he's the main character and Min's visions about him in Book One involved a bloody hand and three women. See, I do remember things.)

Blah blah blah they hug because they're friends now.

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all. Honestly, the characters spend so much time bickering with each other that it's easy to forget they're even friends sometimes, and this extends to the Three Musketeers, who as the series has progressed have seemed to drift from being three close friends discovering the wider world together to three sullen jackasses who are only occasionally on speaking terms when they're not separated for long periods of time. I wish the relationships between the protagonists were a lot closer like they are in Lord of the Rings or Avatar the Last Airbender. When Frodo and Sam are separated, it's genuinely heartbreaking, because you know that they genuinely love each other, and it makes these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kg_CTJP6w) scenes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlyYBtASteQ) so (https://youtu.be/Zsr5JdAh-CM?t=37s) much (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKIgv8AhffA) more (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJnw7uCaxhc) powerful. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTstBMkeAH8) This is where the heart of the story is, and without it Lord of the Rings is just flah and dazzle without any substance and it's why Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie.

Traab

2016-07-11, 08:26 PM

I agree, its kind of nuts just how OFTEN the three amigos are at each others throats. Its like they take literally every chance to interpret something in a way that makes their friend be a jerk despite there being other interpretations staring them in the face. And this is just by book 2! And yes, the male/female relationship thing is just kinda bizarre.

Aeson

2016-07-11, 08:55 PM

Personally, I'm half inclined to believe that Rand, Mat, and Perrin are three people who were friends as kids and remember that time fondly but have drifted apart as they aged, with the drift beginning at some point prior to the start of the series. They make an effort to preserve a semblance of friendship for old times' sake, but their hearts aren't really in it and as a result they quarrel easily with one another, and this isn't being helped by the stress they're under as a result of their circumstances. The other half of me is inclined to think that they actually are friends with one another and just aren't handling the stress of their circumstances all that well.

YossarianLives

2016-07-11, 10:12 PM

I'm only on book 4, but the endless snark between the main characters is really hurting my enjoyment of the series.

Especially the "Perrin and Faile Act Like Small Children" part, which almost made me quit the series, it was so painful to read.

Aeson

2016-07-11, 11:03 PM

Especially the "Perrin and Faile Act Like Small Children" part, which almost made me quit the series, it was so painful to read.
I, and I think many others in this thread and the preceding one, understand your feelings on this matter, and either share them or have similar feelings on the matter. As such, I would like to offer you my condolences for the many chapters of quality entertainment that you will endure for much of the middle half of the series which touch on this relationship.

I'm only on book 4, but the endless snark between the main characters is really hurting my enjoyment of the series.
Don't worry; not too much further on you'll start seeing a lot less of it.

Probably mostly because they split up and more or less never all get together again for any great length of time. I forget exactly when that happens, though.

Adderbane

2016-07-11, 11:12 PM

I, and I think many others in this thread and the preceding one, understand your feelings on this matter, and either share them or have similar feelings on the matter. As such, I would like to offer you my condolences for the many chapters of quality entertainment that you will endure for much of the middle half of the series which touch on this relationship.

Don't worry; not too much further on you'll start seeing a lot less of it.

Probably mostly because they split up and more or less never all get together again for any great length of time. I forget exactly when that happens, though.

I think the Stone is the last time the musketeers are together in the series. Perrin never even visits Tar Valon in the real world. Kinda funny since that was their goal for the first book

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-12, 01:15 AM

Chapter 24: New Friends and Old Enemies
We're still at Hogwarts, but instead of boring Inception style vision quests with action and a deep look at the mindset of our heroes, we get some girls gossiping about boys and complaining about washing dishes!

Hey, you better be paying attention! This is just about the only exposition of life as a Tower novice you're going to get! You will be tested on this later!

anjxed

2016-07-12, 09:34 AM

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

I think there was a line in AMoL where Mat said he thinks that the dice wont roll again in his head

Psyren

2016-07-12, 09:35 AM

Why would you assume that? There's no indication of it in the text. The pattern obviously still has some plan for him since it positioned him to marry into the Seanchan and we know Jordan planned a sequel about him. Considering that Rand can still manipulate the pattern and Perrin kept his wolf super powers, I'd imagine that Mat kept his stuff too, although we have no real proof either way.

I don't remember any indication that the dice stopping that time was any different from all the other times it stopped during a pivotal event. Was there some line I missed?

Both Perrin and Rand said none of them are TV anymore. Now, Mat might still have his powers, but I have doubts, because his powers were so strongly tied to being ta'veren (i.e. manipulating chance/probability.)

However, with or without that power, I agree with you - it's not impossible that Mat can keep her in check. But I'm still thinking further ahead; the AS will far outlive Tuon and Mat, and the next Empress (may she live forever and yadda yadda) may not be as charitable to the deal with all those uppity/juicy marath'damane just longing to be collared and keep them from meddling in the politics of civilized folk. Thankfully, the Black Tower lifespans should be longer now too, and their memories of battling Seanchan should stay fresh for a few generations if not centuries.

Another big problem occurs to me as well:
There's a whole 'nother nation of channelers that are not covered by the Dragon's Peace - Shara. According to Sanderson, Demandred didn't bring all of them to TG, and now Seanchan knows they exist (if they didn't already.) This could get pretty bad for Randland.

Elayne likes Rand because I guess having a guy fall into your yard and then leave ten minutes later counts as true love,

Not a Disney fan I take it? :smalltongue:

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all.

I think you're jumping the gun a tad. Hang in there is all I have to say.

Rand and Egwene are the middle-school sweethearts from the very small town. Everyone around them plainly see what a great couple they make, so of course they think so too. And like anyone from a small town, they have nothing at all to really compare to.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-12, 10:05 AM

I think you're jumping the gun a tad.

I think AES is on the money, personally. None of RJ's romantic plots have worked for me.

Though perhaps I'm not the best judge, seeing as how I'm destined to due alone, surrounded by cats.

Psyren

2016-07-12, 02:34 PM

I think AES is on the money, personally. None of RJ's romantic plots have worked for me.

Of course he's on the money. Egwene and Rand don't really love each other. The romance is supposed to feel stilted/forced, it's going to end rather unceremoniously two books from now.

Literally all they have in common (well, besides the whole being mages thing) is that they are the most eligible maiden and bachelor in Emond's Field and also the most mature members of their age group.

Seppl

2016-07-12, 03:35 PM

Of course he's on the money. Egwene and Rand don't really love each other. The romance is supposed to feel stilted/forced, it's going to end rather unceremoniously two books from now.

Literally all they have in common (well, besides the whole being mages thing) is that they are the most eligible maiden and bachelor in Emond's Field and also the most mature members of their age group.

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

Adderbane

2016-07-12, 04:42 PM

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

I think the Shaido subplot of doom dragging so long was because there wasn't anything for Perrin to do while Mat and Rands character arcs played out.

There's actually a lot of Moirane/Thom foreshadowing going as far back as early TSR and which when paired with a comment in TEotW becomes fairly obvious in hindsight.

monomer

2016-07-12, 04:45 PM

Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?

Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.

While I agree in general with your assessments, it didn't get much screen-time, but Egwene and Gawyn spent a good chunk of time together at the White Tower. I think he came across as a really good guy during Egwene's stint as a novice, as opposed to Galad who was just a handsome jerk. Similarly, Rand and Elayne spent a good few weeks noodling around the Stone, which was really Rand's first relationship (Egwene and Rand doesn't count since they were only really courting each other, and I don't think they even ever actually kissed) so it probably stuck with him pretty hard.

lord_khaine

2016-07-12, 05:13 PM

Both Perrin and Rand said none of them are TV anymore. Now, Mat might still have his powers, but I have doubts, because his powers were so strongly tied to being ta'veren (i.e. manipulating chance/probability.)

Well.. neither Rand nor Perrin lost their powers, so in dont think Mat would, even though i do think being ta'veren is the reason for why they got said powers. But Mat were a ta'veren before he got his supernatural luck, and none of the other ta'verens got it, so i dont believe those things are connected closely enough to mean the loss of one would be the loss of the other.

There's a whole 'nother nation of channelers that are not covered by the Dragon's Peace - Shara. According to Sanderson, Demandred didn't bring all of them to TG, and now Seanchan knows they exist (if they didn't already.) This could get pretty bad for Randland.

I dont think it will be to bad, thankfully Shara is a rather insular place, that prefers to sit within its borders and rip off people in the silk trade.
And given a few generations in peace i think the black tower might grow strong enough to protect the free nations, especially if they manage to preserve the initial weak bonds that had been formed to the white tower.

Anteros

2016-07-12, 05:18 PM

As a side note, the romantic subplots in this series have been very weak so far. We have a lot of people who talk about how they love someone but very rarely ever show it, especially Rand and Egwene who despite supposedly being something of an item never show any real love or affection for one another besides just thinking about the other one a lot. If Robert Jordan isn't interested in giving us real romance between his characters, I would rather him not have it at all. Honestly, the characters spend so much time bickering with each other that it's easy to forget they're even friends sometimes, and this extends to the Three Musketeers, who as the series has progressed have seemed to drift from being three close friends discovering the wider world together to three sullen jackasses who are only occasionally on speaking terms when they're not separated for long periods of time. I wish the relationships between the protagonists were a lot closer like they are in Lord of the Rings or Avatar the Last Airbender. When Frodo and Sam are separated, it's genuinely heartbreaking, because you know that they genuinely love each other, and it makes these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Kg_CTJP6w) scenes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlyYBtASteQ) so (https://youtu.be/Zsr5JdAh-CM?t=37s) much (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKIgv8AhffA) more (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJnw7uCaxhc) powerful. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTstBMkeAH8) This is where the heart of the story is, and without it Lord of the Rings is just flah and dazzle without any substance and it's why Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie.

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

The romance subplots will generally mature as the characters do, although some of them are always going to be better than others. Romance is hardly Jodan's strength, but it would be pretty weird if he went 13 books without including it.

As for Mat, I've always believed the Tower Aes Sedai did something to him while they were healing him to accidentally cause his luck. It's not well telegraphed, and far from proof, but there is mention of a ter'angreal that can give great luck right before the healing scene. I can't think of any reason for that to exist or be mentioned if it's not related to Mat in some way.

Or maybe Lanfear did it when she visited him, although I can't imagine why.

lord_khaine

2016-07-12, 06:11 PM

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

Really? i though lenght of their years were the same as ours, newer saw any mentioning of anything indicating otherwise.

Mat Spoiler

But yeah, i do recall the mentioning of the weird terangrel, the one that would always roll 6 times 6 when channeled though.
I kinda suspect it is a lost plot threat that were abandoned.

Anteros

2016-07-12, 06:48 PM

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-12, 09:10 PM

I dont think it will be to bad, thankfully Shara is a rather insular place, that prefers to sit within its borders and rip off people in the silk trade.
And given a few generations in peace i think the black tower might grow strong enough to protect the free nations, especially if they manage to preserve the initial weak bonds that had been formed to the white tower.

Would not matter so much anyways, If they attacked within the lifetime of Mat and Tuon I imagine that Mat would argue to help fend it off..besides you have the entirety of The Wetlands and the Aiel against them, Shara is not too much of a threat.

Psyren

2016-07-12, 11:06 PM

Would not matter so much anyways, If they attacked within the lifetime of Mat and Tuon I imagine that Mat would argue to help fend it off..besides you have the entirety of The Wetlands and the Aiel against them, Shara is not too much of a threat.

I'm not worried about
them being a threat, I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

While this one was supposed to fail, many of the others are not and still feel forced or outright annoying. Some prominent examples and my thoughts about them:
Perrin and Faile: Starts ok but turns into the part of the story that many people dislike the most, for good reason.
Elayne and Rand: Extremely forced. They hardly ever met, yet are totally in love and cannot stop thinking about each other? Even when Rand is together with other women for a long time he still has romantic thoughts about Elayne?
Avienda and Rand: Avienda's sulking just takes way too long, to the point that it gets annoying.
Rand and Min: Ok.
Egwene and Gawyn: Seems to only exist to give Gawyn reasons to be stupid. And what does she see in him? Just because he's pretty? But Galad was prettier and now suddenly she wants Gawyn! Also, this is another couple who hardly ever met, yet cannot stop thinking about each other. This one feels like the most forced of them all.
Nynaeve and Lan: They are just kind of together. There is real no development to their romance but also nothing negative to say.
Mat and Tuon: Ok.
Siuan and Bryne: Probably the most meaningless and annoying romance in the books. At least it does not take a lot of screen time.
Loial and Erith: Awkward, but intentionally so. Success, I guess?
Moirane and Thom: We are just informed of the result, but never see anything developing. Feels a bit like the two were the only main characters left without a romance near the end of the series, thus they were made a couple.

While many of the main characters are horny teenagers, some of these can be excused. But that does not make them good romance plots.

Agree on a couple but disagree on the rest:

Perrin x Faile: Yeah, this romance is terrible through and through. No argument here.
Elayne x Rand: They've been in each other's company for weeks before he leaves Tear, if not months. Plenty of time for a mutual attraction to grow into a full flame. Just because the book is more interested in the action and political stuff doesn't mean the romance stuff isn't happening.
Aviendha x Rand: This is another huge stretch of time that you simply didn't notice because of everything else going on. They took weeks to cross the Waste, several days in Rhuidean, weeks more to get back, and Cairhien etc.
Min x Rand: Min probably spends more time with him total than any of the others; not being a channeler means she isn't needed to do any of the fighting/heavy lifting elsewhere. Regardless, you seem fine with this one.
Egwene x Gawyn: I dislike this one simply because the power differential is too great. I don't see any relationship here being healthy given their respective stations, and the strain shows. Their feelings are genuine however even if nothing should have ultimately come of them unless Egwene was willing to step aside.
Nynaeve x Lan: Here again, they spend a lot of time together off-camera. Book One and the beginning of Two takes a huge span of time that gets truncated, especially in Shienar.
Mat x Tuon: I'm surprised you're actually okay with this one. She is a horrible person with an amazingly stupid culture and he has to physically keep her from causing more wars on multiple occasions. For a large chunk of their wooing period she calls him "Toy" for crying out loud, even long after Tylin is no longer in the picture, as though constantly reminding him of being effectively raped is supposed to be endearing somehow. :smallconfused:
Siuan x Bryne: This is one of the better ones actually. He can both understand her mindset from her previous life and ground her in her current one.
Loial x Erith: Er, of course it's awkward. Have you met Loial? :smallconfused:
Moiraine x Thom: They're the two most skilled politicians and loremasters in the whole series. It's not hard to see why they would become attracted to one another's minds. And again, lots of time spent together that you've glossed over simply because the books don't inflate it to real-time length.

The New Bruceski

2016-07-13, 12:02 AM

Egwene and Rand aren't really in love with each other, they're in love with the idea of being in love with each other. Small farmtown without many people their own age, they probably would have wound up together out of familiarity and inertia, but that's falling apart now that they have options.

I think there are two romances in this series that I really found myself rooting for, the others just kinda happen.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-13, 01:05 AM

I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

Ehhh, I am not sure how long the Seanchan's powerbase of Damane will hold up. They have an agreement with the White Tower about Allowing Aes Sedai in uncollared if Some Seanchan are allowed to show off Damane in the tower, and if Artur Pendrag did have that talk with Tuan that Mat asked about..she may not be as sure of herself as she was before. Artur Pendrag didn't like Aes Sedai..but he sure as heck didn't make them slaves.

Seppl

2016-07-13, 01:08 AM

Perrin x Faile: Yeah, this romance is terrible through and through. No argument here.
Elayne x Rand: They've been in each other's company for weeks before he leaves Tear, if not months. Plenty of time for a mutual attraction to grow into a full flame. Just because the book is more interested in the action and political stuff doesn't mean the romance stuff isn't happening.
Aviendha x Rand: This is another huge stretch of time that you simply didn't notice because of everything else going on. They took weeks to cross the Waste, several days in Rhuidean, weeks more to get back, and Cairhien etc.
Min x Rand: Min probably spends more time with him total than any of the others; not being a channeler means she isn't needed to do any of the fighting/heavy lifting elsewhere. Regardless, you seem fine with this one.
Egwene x Gawyn: I dislike this one simply because the power differential is too great. I don't see any relationship here being healthy given their respective stations, and the strain shows. Their feelings are genuine however even if nothing should have ultimately come of them unless Egwene was willing to step aside.
Nynaeve x Lan: Here again, they spend a lot of time together off-camera. Book One and the beginning of Two takes a huge span of time that gets truncated, especially in Shienar.
Mat x Tuon: I'm surprised you're actually okay with this one. She is a horrible person with an amazingly stupid culture and he has to physically keep her from causing more wars on multiple occasions. For a large chunk of their wooing period she calls him "Toy" for crying out loud, even long after Tylin is no longer in the picture, as though constantly reminding him of being effectively raped is supposed to be endearing somehow. :smallconfused:
Siuan x Bryne: This is one of the better ones actually. He can both understand her mindset from her previous life and ground her in her current one.
Loial x Erith: Er, of course it's awkward. Have you met Loial? :smallconfused:
Moiraine x Thom: They're the two most skilled politicians and loremasters in the whole series. It's not hard to see why they would become attracted to one another's minds. And again, lots of time spent together that you've glossed over simply because the books don't inflate it to real-time length.My criticism was directed more at the quality of the representation in the books, less at the actual healthiness or plausibility of the relationship.
Is Tuon/Mat a healthy relationship? In the end it is probably good for both of them, but yes, it does not start as one, far from it. But it makes for a decent reading, you can see them interacting and see the romance progressing.

On the other hand you get relationships like Siuan/Bryne. Again, yes they make a good couple and the relationship both does them good. But as a reader I dreaded chapters involving them: "Oh, it's Siuan! I guess we are in for another chapter of her doing Bryne's laundry, them both wanting to be with the other but not being able to express it, and 'comically' misunderstanding the other's subtle advances. We have only had 10 of those chapters before."

And the third kind of romance plot you get a lot in the series is the one that happens offscreen. "Oh, hey, it's Moiraine and Thom, we have not seen them in a while. Oh, he's her warder now! And they are married! Hooray?". It might make sense for them to end up together but do not expect me to care for their relationship if you do not show it.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-13, 01:42 AM

My criticism was directed more at the quality of the representation in the books, less at the actual healthiness or plausibility of the relationship.

I think my complaints come from the same general area.

Like, I totally did not realise Elayne spent "weeks or months" with Rand In Tear, because it wasn't shown to the reader. All Rand did the entire time was complain about how he only had a few days to get to know her before he had to leave. And isn't Elayne like 13 at this point?

And him and Aviendha just had zero chemistry. I got that RJ was trying to show how Aiel culture is different and whatever, but it just seemed like they were both railroaded into a relationship neither of them wanted. I can't recall Aviendha ever explaining why she loves him, it's always just presented as a foregone conclusion.

Siuan's romance is one of the better-written, but I just can't support it because in my headcanon, she's gay. And Moiraine/Thom does kind of reek of 'pairing off the leftovers' (though I haven't got to that bit yet, so I can't speak to the quality of writing).

Anteros

2016-07-13, 03:02 AM

Guys, you need to remember that spoiler box titles can still be spoilers in themselves. This also applies to putting half your statement outside of the spoiler box. Just because you're not spoiling everything doesn't mean you're not spoiling something.

lord_khaine

2016-07-13, 03:55 AM

After book stuff

I'm worried about them providing an entire nation's worth of damane to Seanchan (there is no prohibition against raiding Shara), increasing Seanchan's firepower to the point that they decide adhering to some treaty signed by a former Empress is less risky than letting all these uppity marath'damane run wild. After all, they secretly want to be leashed! How could they not?

Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

ryuplaneswalker

2016-07-13, 03:59 AM

Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

To be fair, They Gated into the middle of an already embattled and somewhat tired army that had been run by a guy who had been unconsciously making the wrong moves. If an army can't win with that advantage then you fail as an army.

The_Snark

2016-07-13, 07:04 AM

Like, I totally did not realise Elayne spent "weeks or months" with Rand In Tear, because it wasn't shown to the reader. All Rand did the entire time was complain about how he only had a few days to get to know her before he had to leave. And isn't Elayne like 13 at this point?

Elayne is 18 in Eye of the World, same age as Egwene. I don't know where you got the idea that she was younger; that'd make her what, fifteen at most by the end of the series? :smallconfused: It isn't shown to the reader scene-by-scene, but there's a chapter where each of the characters gets a page or two skimming over the time in Tear, and the canoodling comes up in both Elayne and Rand's bits.

In general, though, I'd agree that romance was not one of Robert Jordan's strengths as a writer. My favorite pairing is probably Nynaeve and Lan, and this is in part because we're only shown a bit of how it first develops - the rest happens offscreen, meaning we can fill in details. And once established, they get along well.

The others... I can see how Perrin and Faile end up attracted to each other in book 3 but they seem to go from that to True Love awfully quickly. (Then again, their marriage is kind of turbulent, so maybe that's deliberate? Marrying someone you've only known for a month or two doesn't have to end in tears but there'll almost certainly be some rocky bits.) Ditto for Egwene and Gawyn in book 6.

Rand... I think the issue here is that each of his romance plots represents a classic romance plot. Min is the girl-next-door romance; Elayne is the fairy-tale princess, love-at-first-sight romance; Aviendha is the Slap-Slap-Kiss, Beatrice/Benedict-style romance. Thing is, love at first sight doesn't make sense to a lot of people (myself included), and so the romance with Elayne falls a little flat for them. Similarly, the one with Aviendha will look a bit weird to people who are inclined towards more straightforward relationships (though modern media has trained us well enough that we're sort of used to that). Rand and Min, by contrast, are easy to understand.

(Although Min supposedly falls in love with Rand well before they actually spend time hanging out and getting to know one another in book 6 onward; at that point she's only met him briefly, in Baerlon and later in Falme? But she has the weird prophecy thing happening, and we do get to see them interacting as friends before it turns into a relationship proper, so it's not hard to overlook this.)

I like Nynaeve and Lan. We don't see very much of their initial romance, which may be a good thing because that's a part that Jordan seems to struggle with. We're given snippets, and those snippets suggest there's been more happening offscreen (Nynaeve is not a frequent PoV character at that point); our imagination can fill in the blanks. Once the relationship is established, it works pretty well: they like and respect each other, they get along most of the time, and when they don't they handle it pretty maturely.

(Once Lan gets over his We Can Never Be Together complex, that is. Nynaeve has no patience with romantic drama, which is maybe another reason I like it.)

Moiraine and Thom could have been similar, except that we don't get to see the relationship after it's established either, which means there's not a whole lot the reader can get invested in.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-13, 08:07 AM

Elayne is 18 in Eye of the World, same age as Egwene. I don't know where you got the idea that she was younger

*researches* right you are. Maybe I made some assumptions based on how she behaved when we first met her? #princessburn

Traab

2016-07-13, 09:38 AM

With Min I get the feeling her love of rand started because of her visions. She saw what would happen, most likely saw a bit of why, and that formed the base of her feelings towards him. or maybe she just accepted her visions were real and convinced herself to love him right away. After that, it was her being around him to give him the chance to fall for her.

Psyren

2016-07-13, 10:05 AM

Ehhh, I am not sure how long the Seanchan's powerbase of Damane will hold up. They have an agreement with the White Tower about Allowing Aes Sedai in uncollared if Some Seanchan are allowed to show off Damane in the tower, and if Artur Pendrag did have that talk with Tuan that Mat asked about..she may not be as sure of herself as she was before. Artur Pendrag didn't like Aes Sedai..but he sure as heck didn't make them slaves.

Fact is, we have no idea how the Artur/Tuon convo went down. The dude was (is?) massively anti-channeler, and as near as I can tell, there are no channelers bound to the Horn that could have potentially changed his attitude. The only folks they talk about adding to their number (Hurin, Olver) are muggles, albeit exceptional muggles.

To add to this, he's apparently opposed Rand's soul as many times as he's defended it, judging by his comments in TGH.

It's possible he got Tuon to tone it down, or it's possible he might have shown approval. It's even possible she might not have believed a word he said, or did but chose to ignore him. It's just left up to the reader. Either way, very glad the Black Tower exists as a going concern.

And the third kind of romance plot you get a lot in the series is the one that happens offscreen. "Oh, hey, it's Moiraine and Thom, we have not seen them in a while. Oh, he's her warder now! And they are married! Hooray?". It might make sense for them to end up together but do not expect me to care for their relationship if you do not show it.

They did show it. It was obvious to me all the way back in Book 4 that there was a spark there, and Thom in Book 2 also hinted at his thoughts even while he was courting someone else.

Im certainly not worried about Shara being unable to deal with unwelcome guests. They were a massive threat during the war, and have both male and female channelers.
I considder that a massive advantage that the Seanchan really should not be able to deal with in most situations.

I dunno, Seanchan didn't have Traveling then, and only a fraction of its Ever Victorious Army at TG. (i.e. only the troops they had stationed in Ebou Dar, Amadicia and Tarabon.) Remember, they're convinced they can take on Randland as a whole, which has even more channelers. Besides, they don't even need open warfare right away, just a series of targeted raids (since they aren't prohibited from doing so.) Warp in, collar as many as possible, warp out - like they did with the Tower, only now they can teleport and don't have to worry about a sa'angreal getting in the way (since, if Shara had one, Demandred would have used it.)

With Min I get the feeling her love of rand started because of her visions. She saw what would happen, most likely saw a bit of why, and that formed the base of her feelings towards him. or maybe she just accepted her visions were real and convinced herself to love him right away. After that, it was her being around him to give him the chance to fall for her.

That's the beauty of it:

She rejected the visions. Actively railed against them. She didn't want to fall in love with a
farmboy." So, while their romance was indeed prophesied, she ended up falling for him the old-fashioned way, by spending time with him and getting to know him.

Aviendha notably did the same, as she saw the same thing in the Wise One Training ter'angreal. In fact, I see hers as the most endearing of all three due to Rand's bumbling over Aiel gifts and his desire to at least try and do right by her people (in his own misguided way.)

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-13, 10:28 AM

She rejected the visions. Actively railed against them. She didn't want to fall in love with a
farmboy." So, while their romance was indeed prophesied, she ended up falling for him the old-fashioned way, by spending time with him and getting to know him.

Aviendha notably did the same, as she saw the same thing in the Wise One Training ter'angreal. In fact, I see hers as the most endearing of all three due to Rand's bumbling over Aiel gifts and his desire to at least try and do right by her people (in his own misguided way.)

This is where my problem is though. Yes, Min and Aviendha start off not liking Rand and end up liking him. All well and good. But I don't see how they got from A to B. They never did anything positive together, Rand is sullen, violent and obviously insane the entire time, and there's no sense that they are getting to know him or warming up to him. From Rand's POV, things never seem to move past simple lust, at least as far as I've read. Yes, he trusts the three where he wouldn't other people, but he'd do that anyway thanks to Min-o-vision.

And I blame the writing. I'm sure I could have enjoyed the relationships, if they were presented better.

Psyren

2016-07-13, 11:16 AM

This is where my problem is though. Yes, Min and Aviendha start off not liking Rand and end up liking him. All well and good. But I don't see how they got from A to B. They never did anything positive together, Rand is sullen, violent and obviously insane the entire time, and there's no sense that they are getting to know him or warming up to him. From Rand's POV, things never seem to move past simple lust, at least as far as I've read. Yes, he trusts the three where he wouldn't other people, but he'd do that anyway thanks to Min-o-vision.

And I blame the writing. I'm sure I could have enjoyed the relationships, if they were presented better.

Wait, what?

Rand doesn't start going nutty until Book 6, with maybe hints of it in Book 5. When all three are getting to know him in the first 4 books, he's perfectly fine with nothing off-putting.

Okay, there's a period in Book 3 where he's dangerous to be around (i.e. when Be'lal, Mesaana, Ishamael and Lanfear are chivvying him to Tear), but he was alone at that point and hadn't even met Aviendha yet.

lord_khaine

2016-07-13, 12:11 PM

Asorted subjects

To be fair, They Gated into the middle of an already embattled and somewhat tired army that had been run by a guy who had been unconsciously making the wrong moves. If an army can't win with that advantage then you fail as an army.

That were only their initial apperance though, and even after Mat had taken over, and despite being more or less them against everyone else, then they still managed to trample most opposition.

Fact is, we have no idea how the Artur/Tuon convo went down. The dude was (is?) massively anti-channeler, and as near as I can tell, there are no channelers bound to the Horn that could have potentially changed his attitude. The only folks they talk about adding to their number (Hurin, Olver) are muggles, albeit exceptional muggles.

It can very well be that you cant channel when your not alive, that you need a body for it. But to me it sounded a lot like Rand were one of the souls that were bound to the horn, and had been spun out to set things in order.

I dunno, Seanchan didn't have Traveling then, and only a fraction of its Ever Victorious Army at TG. (i.e. only the troops they had stationed in Ebou Dar, Amadicia and Tarabon.) Remember, they're convinced they can take on Randland as a whole, which has even more channelers. Besides, they don't even need open warfare right away, just a series of targeted raids (since they aren't prohibited from doing so.) Warp in, collar as many as possible, warp out - like they did with the Tower, only now they can teleport and don't have to worry about a sa'angreal getting in the way (since, if Shara had one, Demandred would have used it.)

Wait, yes they did, they had gotten the secret of gateways before that, Mats end gambit more or less centered about them being able to come and go like that. And they wont get any more of the EVA, since the rest is stuck in a massive civil war back at Seanchan. And from all we have seen they are extremely arrogant, that they believe they can take on something does not mean its true.

Because we cant be certain they have more channelers, im quite certain that at least before the war Shara had more channelers than everyone else. Due to being the only ones that actively recruited both male and female channelsers, and had been doing it as part of their culture.

I dont think targetet raids are a good option either. I mean, to start with the strenght to create a gateway is rare, making it a limited resource thats required here. And where would they target those raids? Its a closed country, gatewaying in blindly is more or less the same as throwing darts at a 1/100 map of germany, and hope you dont land in a river.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-13, 12:19 PM

Wait, what?

Rand doesn't start going nutty until Book 6, with maybe hints of it in Book 5. When all three are getting to know him in the first 4 books, he's perfectly fine with nothing off-putting.

Okay, there's a period in Book 3 where he's dangerous to be around (i.e. when Be'lal, Mesaana, Ishamael and Lanfear are chivvying him to Tear), but he was alone at that point and hadn't even met Aviendha yet.

I meant more the mundane kind of insanity. The talking to himself, going silent for long periods, that sort of thing. If you've seen the sitcom Slings and Arrows, I'd say that Rand reminds me of Geoffrey Tenant during this period. Like, he's not yet got the supernatural, world-breaking crazies from Saidin yet, but it's pretty obvious that he's a few sticks short of a bundle. You know?

Traab

2016-07-13, 12:30 PM

mangosta71

2016-07-13, 02:03 PM

Siuan's romance is one of the better-written, but I just can't support it because in my headcanon, she's gay.
Didn't she and Moiraine explicitly have something going on when they were Novices/Accepted? I can't recall if that's official or a fan-theory...

Psyren

2016-07-13, 02:05 PM

I meant more the mundane kind of insanity. The talking to himself, going silent for long periods, that sort of thing. If you've seen the sitcom Slings and Arrows, I'd say that Rand reminds me of Geoffrey Tenant during this period. Like, he's not yet got the supernatural, world-breaking crazies from Saidin yet, but it's pretty obvious that he's a few sticks short of a bundle. You know?

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't... He was always the most well-adjusted, at least initially. I've never seen that sitcom either.

It can very well be that you cant channel when your not alive, that you need a body for it. But to me it sounded a lot like Rand were one of the souls that were bound to the horn, and had been spun out to set things in order.

None of the Heroes struck me as channelers who were simply unable to. All of them are distinctly martial in nature - archers, swordsmen, axes etc.

Rather, their advantage is that they are more or less immune to the OP - Falme proved that - and immortal so long
as the Hornsounder doesn't die.

Wait, yes they did, they had gotten the secret of gateways before that, Mats end gambit more or less centered about them being able to come and go like that. And they wont get any more of the EVA, since the rest is stuck in a massive civil war back at Seanchan. And from all we have seen they are extremely arrogant, that they believe they can take on something does not mean its true.

Because we cant be certain they have more channelers, im quite certain that at least before the war Shara had more channelers than everyone else. Due to being the only ones that actively recruited both male and female channelsers, and had been doing it as part of their culture.

I dont think targetet raids are a good option either. I mean, to start with the strenght to create a gateway is rare, making it a limited resource thats required here. And where would they target those raids? Its a closed country, gatewaying in blindly is more or less the same as throwing darts at a 1/100 map of germany, and hope you dont land in a river.

The Seanchan didn't learn gateways until after the Tower raid, by which time TG was imminent and they weren't able to abuse their knowledge. Then they signed the treaty, ensuring they wouldn't do so. But they have no treaty with Shara.

Besides, even if you're right and Shara outnumbers them, that's irrelevant - the whole point of a raid is to chip away at a superior or entrenched foe, one that would be impossible or at least costly to take on in a direct assault. Seanchan has been raiding foreign powers for centuries, while Shara has been completely isolated. I know who I'd bet on in that, all else being equal.

Anteros

2016-07-13, 03:17 PM

Khaine, Lews Therin is bound to the wheel, not the horn. They bump into each other a lot because both tend to show up when big things are going down, not because they are connected to the same object. At least, thats what i think I recall from way back when I read this stuff.

I definitely got the impression that Rand is bound from the way the heroes all interact with him. There's also talk of Rand being spun out but not being the Dragon. Plus, Jordan said in an interview that the pattern would spin out Ameresu if it ever needed a female Dragon equivalent, so she can most definitely channel.

They do seem to be primarily non-chanellers, but I don't doubt there's a few chanellers among them.

Thomas Cardew

2016-07-13, 03:24 PM

Hi. Long time lurker finally surfacing to toss a few thoughts out. Since the thread got to my favorite subject.

The Seanchan didn't learn gateways until after the Tower raid, by which time TG was imminent and they weren't able to abuse their knowledge. Then they signed the treaty, ensuring they wouldn't do so. But they have no treaty with Shara.

Besides, even if you're right and Shara outnumbers them, that's irrelevant - the whole point of a raid is to chip away at a superior or entrenched foe, one that would be impossible or at least costly to take on in a direct assault. Seanchan has been raiding foreign powers for centuries, while Shara has been completely isolated. I know who I'd bet on in that, all else being equal.[/QUOTE]

IMO the Seanchan are way overrated as threat; they win because the Author decided they won. They're ludicrously handicapped by the damane system and the complete lack of male channelers.

A few points. The Seanchan are even more vulnerable to raids. Neglect the fact that Shara is a closed country with little to no information while Seanchan territory is relatively open. Neglect the fact that Seanchan have to actually capture channelers while any other side just needs to kill or free them. Neglect the fact that Seanchan channelers require two people function either of whom can be killed. Seanchan channelers are laughably exposed. Their channelers are kept locked in kennels and are unable to defend themselves until paired if they're even willing too. Lumping all of your high value assests in a single location at each operational center is a bad idea when traveling exists. That's even just with relatively mundane threats, open a portal to the kennels and send a handful of soldiers in to slaughter any damane they can find and you can easily eliminate a huge amount of the seanchan's capabilities. If you upgrade that to an actual strike force including female channelers? You risk more but total obliteration of any given target is as almost completely assured.

Now start to consider the Seanchan's complete blindness to male channelers. Sending in solo male channlers is ludicrously effective as long as they're reasonable covert about it. A sul'dam/damane patrol walks down a street, suddenly both their heads fall to the ground severed at the neck by unseen weaves of Air from a male channeler and everyone runs in panic. Or the street explodes. Or lightning strikes. Or rocks fall from the sky. Or they die from a thousand different weaves that don't directly link back to the channeler. All you have to do is avoid stupidly obvious things like throwing fireballs or shooting red lasers from your hands and act suitably shocked when people start to die and you're clear. Or send in female channelers in small circles with male channelers using saidin exclusively. They now have the advantage of being able to see and counter any Damane's weave if any of them manage to react. Same advantage of invisibility but the added advantage of being able to see your enemies' weaves.

Or consider the fact that it is impossible for Seanchan to form circles. Let's jump straight to the extreme. 2 full circles of 72 with even numbers of male and female channelers. 1 focused entirely on offense, 1 focused entirely on defense led by a woman. The seanchan have no counter. No single damane is strong enough to shield to either of those circles. They simply can't throw enough power at it barring a Sa'angreal to block it and i'm not even sure damane can use sa'angreal. The best they can do is attack the members directly in an attempt weaken the circle. But you have second circle focused on defending against those attacks. In all of this you have the advantage because your lead channelers can see the enemies weaves while they can't see half of yours. Not to mention only the lead channelers need to be exposed; you can leave the rest of the circle behind. Or if the circle weakens with distance, use the stupidity that is traveling to your advantage. Port into an underground room dug with a collapsed tunnel under the city. A portal to anywhere in the world provides breathable air. The Seanchan have no idea where the circle members are and cant attack them directly. So you only have to worry about protecting the circle leads as they casually obliterate the damane kennels, the sul'dam quarters, the royal palace, the barracks, any ships left in the harbor, and any other target of value.

Hell just blow the royal palace to bits every 1-5 years and watch as the cancerous nature of Seanchan society rips itself apart as everyone tries to become emperor/empress.

Seanchan Delenda Est

Anteros

2016-07-13, 03:32 PM

The_Snark

2016-07-13, 03:47 PM

IMO the Seanchan are way overrated as threat; they win because the Author decided they won. They're ludicrously handicapped by the damane system and the complete lack of male channelers.

A few points. The Seanchan are even more vulnerable to raids. Neglect the fact that Shara is a closed country with little to no information while Seanchan territory is relatively open. Neglect the fact that Seanchan have to actually capture channelers while any other side just needs to kill or free them. Neglect the fact that Seanchan channelers require two people function either of whom can be killed. Seanchan channelers are laughably exposed. Their channelers are kept locked in kennels and are unable to defend themselves until paired if they're even willing too. Lumping all of your high value assests in a single location at each operational center is a bad idea when traveling exists. That's even just with relatively mundane threats, open a portal to the kennels and send a handful of soldiers in to slaughter any damane they can find and you can easily eliminate a huge amount of the seanchan's capabilities. If you upgrade that to an actual strike force including female channelers? You risk more but total obliteration of any given target is as almost completely assured.

Now start to consider the Seanchan's complete blindness to male channelers. Sending in solo male channlers is ludicrously effective as long as they're reasonable covert about it. A sul'dam/damane patrol walks down a street, suddenly both their heads fall to the ground severed at the neck by unseen weaves of Air from a male channeler and everyone runs in panic. Or the street explodes. Or lightning strikes. Or rocks fall from the sky. Or they die from a thousand different weaves that don't directly link back to the channeler. All you have to do is avoid stupidly obvious things like throwing fireballs or shooting red lasers from your hands and act suitably shocked when people start to die and you're clear. Or send in female channelers in small circles with male channelers using saidin exclusively. They now have the advantage of being able to see and counter any Damane's weave if any of them manage to react. Same advantage of invisibility but the added advantage of being able to see your enemies' weaves.

Or consider the fact that it is impossible for Seanchan to form circles. Let's jump straight to the extreme. 2 full circles of 72 with even numbers of male and female channelers. 1 focused entirely on offense, 1 focused entirely on defense led by a woman. The seanchan have no counter. No single damane is strong enough to shield to either of those circles. They simply can't throw enough power at it barring a Sa'angreal to block it and i'm not even sure damane can use sa'angreal. The best they can do is attack the members directly in an attempt weaken the circle. But you have second circle focused on defending against those attacks. In all of this you have the advantage because your lead channelers can see the enemies weaves while they can't see half of yours. Not to mention only the lead channelers need to be exposed; you can leave the rest of the circle behind. Or if the circle weakens with distance, use the stupidity that is traveling to your advantage. Port into an underground room dug with a collapsed tunnel under the city. A portal to anywhere in the world provides breathable air. The Seanchan have no idea where the circle members are and cant attack them directly. So you only have to worry about protecting the circle leads as they casually obliterate the damane kennels, the sul'dam quarters, the royal palace, the barracks, any ships left in the harbor, and any other target of value.

Hell just blow the royal palace to bits every 1-5 years and watch as the cancerous nature of Seanchan society rips itself apart as everyone tries to become emperor/empress.

Seanchan Delenda Est

The Seanchan have one huge advantage you're missing, though: they've had a thousand years of practice figuring out how to employ channelers in battle. Everyone else is scrambling to figure out how this changes things (except maybe Shara). The Aes Sedai haven't seriously fought since the Trolloc Wars, the Windfinders are more focused on peacetime uses, and until recently it was taboo for Aiel Wise Ones to fight. They don't have the training or experience to exploit the Seanchan weaknesses like you describe.

The Asha'man, at least, seem to be learning pretty quickly; Mazrim Taim had experience using the Power on a battlefield, he would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil. Still, the Seanchan have a hell of a head start.

And the collars do offer one advantage: they can force channelers to work for them. They don't have to capture enemy channelers, they can and do kill them when taking prisoners isn't feasible. Damane can be freed, and in some cases they'll turn on their captors, but it's not guaranteed: a lot of them have accepted the Seanchan dogma, while others are too fearful/traumatized to fight even if they do.

Seppl

2016-07-13, 04:02 PM

There are two big differences when considering raids or even attacks on Shara:
1. The Seanchan home continent is in turmoil after the events of the books. The expeditionary force sent to reconquer the Westlands is the only functioning part of the Empire that is left. It will probably take a long time until they regain their former strength. First they will have to consolidate their power and position in the conquered lands (Although they are doing a very good job of this, it will still take some time). Then they probably want to reestablish their rule on the western continent. This will take many years (But probably much faster than the last time). And only then will they have their former strength, plus a bit more from conquering the southern parts of the Westlands.
2. Shara is a militant society that weaponizes their channelers, even breeds channelers on purpose. And for all we know they are mostly united. They are very similar to the Seanchan. This is very different from the Westlands, which were politically divided; weakened; and where most channelers were pacifists, living in an ivory tower, not doing much most of the time.

Shara would be a much tougher target for a much weaker Seanchean empire than the Westlands were.

And a minor point: Technology marches on. The Dragons cannot remain an exclusive secret of Andor forever. While in our world Sam Colt is regarded as the person who really made all men equal, in Randland it would be Aludra and her cannons. Once it spreads, every common soldier will have the power of a channeler. In Aviendha's vision we can see technology progressing to a level equal to early 20th century in some 200-300 years. Channeling and beast mastery, while still useful, would probably not be that important any more in such a society.

By the way: What happens to male channelers in the Seanchan empire, now that they are no longer cursed? Did this ever get addressed? They could double their number of channelers if they stop killing them, so I guess it is only a matter of time before they start using them as Damane. They may be stubborn but they are not stupid.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-13, 04:06 PM

Mazrim Taim... would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil.

So much evil. And he doesn't even try to hide it! Literally everyone who meets him immediately pegs him as evil. It gets to the point where you have to wonder why none of them actually do anything about him...

snowblizz

2016-07-13, 04:09 PM

Really? i though lenght of their years were the same as ours, newer saw any mentioning of anything indicating otherwise.

Mat Spoiler

But yeah, i do recall the mentioning of the weird terangrel, the one that would always roll 6 times 6 when channeled though.
I kinda suspect it is a lost plot threat that were abandoned.

Keep in mind that a lot of these characters are very young and immature. The WoT calendar is different than ours, so even if the characters say that they are 18 or 21 or whatever, they are actually closer to 15/16 at the start of the series. In Elayne's case it's very likely that Rand is the first boy she ever met outside of guards, family, or direct parental supervision.

The romance subplots will generally mature as the characters do, although some of them are always going to be better than others. Romance is hardly Jodan's strength, but it would be pretty weird if he went 13 books without including it.

As for Mat, I've always believed the Tower Aes Sedai did something to him while they were healing him to accidentally cause his luck. It's not well telegraphed, and far from proof, but there is mention of a ter'angreal that can give great luck right before the healing scene. I can't think of any reason for that to exist or be mentioned if it's not related to Mat in some way.

Or maybe Lanfear did it when she visited him, although I can't imagine why.

On Mat.The Black Ajah stole that luck Ter Angreal when they left, for reasons the BA don't know. About the time Mat was healed IIRC. I always read it as the Pattern adjusting that by making Mat a walking talking random chance bot instead.

Thomas Cardew

2016-07-13, 04:22 PM

Eh you can argue that no side really uses their power effectively, and come up with dozens of ways for them to be far more effective.

The problem is that this ends in fan-fictiony things like Androl opening up a lava waygate over a Trolloc army and then never doing it again. Or underground canons.

It's not good writing, and it's not interesting to read. It makes a much better story if the characters stick to pre-established strategies and abilities, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense to the reader.

Fair enough. I don't want to repeat that. But one of the major themes through out the series is that Male and Female working together is vastly more powerful than either alone. Seanchan have complete removed themselves from any ability to work with males. They will lose as soon as the Aeil start figuring out what to do with male channelers. Or the WT and BT actually work something out.

The Seanchan have one huge advantage you're missing, though: they've had a thousand years of practice figuring out how to employ channelers in battle. Everyone else is scrambling to figure out how this changes things (except maybe Shara). The Aes Sedai haven't seriously fought since the Trolloc Wars, the Windfinders are more focused on peacetime uses, and until recently it was taboo for Aiel Wise Ones to fight. They don't have the training or experience to exploit the Seanchan weaknesses like you describe.

The Asha'man, at least, seem to be learning pretty quickly; Mazrim Taim had experience using the Power on a battlefield, he would've been a great choice of teachers if not for all the evil. Still, the Seanchan have a hell of a head start.

And the collars do offer one advantage: they can force channelers to work for them. They don't have to capture enemy channelers, they can and do kill them when taking prisoners isn't feasible. Damane can be freed, and in some cases they'll turn on their captors, but it's not guaranteed: a lot of them have accepted the Seanchan dogma, while others are too fearful/traumatized to fight even if they do.

And for having a 1000 years of practice they're ridiculously bad at it :smallamused:. The black tower matches them in the Ebou Dari battle. And that's a half trained brand new group. (Yes both sides lost, that's the point). But the Seanchan have peaked. They can add more numbers but that's it. Linear growth at best in effectiveness. The other societies have potential for exponential increases in effectiveness and numbers with circles, both standard all female and mixed males to increase size, and angraal. They need a quick, overwhelming victory or they will be ground down as the other groups grow, learn, and react.

As for the damane being freed, I didn't mean freed and turn against the seanchan. I just meant destroy the ad'am link. A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off. A freed damane has 3 results. Best case for the Seanchan she does nothing. Middle case she freaks out and kills everyone around her (friend or foe) as happened a few times. Worst case, she actively defects and starts killing the Seanchan. The point was more they HAVE to work in pairs for no added advantage. Twice the targets with no increase in effectiveness.

Aeson

2016-07-13, 04:58 PM

So much evil. And he doesn't even try to hide it! Literally everyone who meets him immediately pegs him as evil. It gets to the point where you have to wonder why none of them actually do anything about him...
I think it's partly a case of the devil you know coupled with the lack of general knowledge of forced conversion, and also a bit of him claiming to be willing to help against Shaitan.

Plus, Taim and Logain are the only two highly-experienced, skilled, non-Forsaken male channelers known to be among the living at the time that Rand decides to begin forming a corps of male channelers for his army, other than Rand himself. Rand's too busy with his own thing to take the time to train up a few channelers to serve as teachers, but Taim and Logain are out there and claim to be willing to help out, at least for now. They may be untrustworthy, and Taim is clearly evil, but you get a corps of well-trained, disciplined channelers, including many who would not have discovered that they were able to channel without being tested, out of letting them help (or "help") you, and even though some of them go over to the dark side this is still probably a net gain for you - after all, your alternative was to be limited to the channelers who discovered that they could channel on their own. Possibly it would have been better to turn away Taim and let Logain take care of things, but that costs you half of your initial teaching pool and moves Taim from a position where you can probably keep an eye on him to a position where you probably won't be aware of what he's doing.

A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off.
That isn't entirely true. Sul'dam are usually the kind of channeler who would live out their lives without ever discovering that they can channel unless someone else shows them how to do it.

Of course, given that the Seanchan are seemingly unaware of this and that the Sul'dam are so bound up in the Seanchan's enslave-the-channelers culture that at least many of the ones shown to be made aware of this almost instantly demand to be enslaved anyways, depriving the Sul'dam of the link to the damane does effectively prevent them from channeling.

An Enemy Spy

2016-07-13, 10:09 PM

Chapter 25: Cairhien
Rand and Friends make it to the city of, I'm gonna let you guess what it is. It's a biggun, not sure how it's size compares to Caemlyn, but the city is big enough to get lost in. Outside the perfectly square walls of city is Foregate, the sprawling market town where the outside traders come to hock their goods. The town grew large during the Aiel Wars when refugees flooded to the capital to escape the Aiel that were launching raids on the rural farms and villages, and a lot of them never left out of fear that the Aiel would attack again. The Aiel War is a touchy subject among the Cairhienians because the Aiel kicked their asses because the Aiel are all a bunch of Warrior Mary Sues who are tougher, braver, stronger and better than everyone else at basically everything, and all have flowing raven black hair and purple eyes and their mothers were all elf princesses and wield two scimitars. Well, not really, the Aiel have red hair and grey eyes and hate swords and elves don't exist in this series as far as I know, but so far the Aiel have been set up as the "better" race that populates so many fantasy worlds at least as far as warfare is concerned, so is it really a surprise that the main hero who is also the Dragon Reborn should be one of them? Speaking of that, yeah, Rand is an Aiel(even if he keeps denying it despite all the evidence) in a city where Aiel are not exactly on the shortlist of everybody's favorite kind of person.

So how much is that going to impact Rand's interactions with the Cairhienians? Not a whole lot, actually.

There's a festival going on with lights and music and people carrying big trolloc puppets through the streets. Hurin gets all snooty and makes fun of the Trolloc puppets because they aren't anatomically accurate and the people in Cairhien don't believe they exist. Which brings up a question I have? Why do so few people believe that Trollocs are real? Up in the Borderlands, everyone knows about Trollocs and other Shadowspawn, and those nations have contact with the southern kingdoms so you would think the stories of the creatures of the Blight would work it's way downward. This isn't like A Song of Ice and Fire where the Others haven't been seen in eight thousand years and no one in the south has enough respect for the Night's Watch to listen to anything they say. A powerful kingdom was conquered by the darn things less than fifty years ago! How do people in a city like Cairhien not know about these things?

They get checked in at the city gate and Rand makes inquiries about Selene, and the guard tells him that he'll get right on that. They go to an inn called the Defender of the Dragonwall. In Cairhien, everything anyone does is part of the Game of Houses, even if that person isn't actively playing it. Of course no one here would ever assume someone wasn't playing the Game so everyone is watching this red haired "lord" as he comes into the inn.

Being a ta'veren means that you just stumble ass backwards into political intrigue(quite literally in fact in Rand's case), and he hasn't been in this inn for even a half hour before he's already getting written invitations from the noble Houses to see what this foreign lord is up to. These are minor Houses of course, no powerful House is going to look so desperate as to immediately call him the second he walks in the city. That's like dropping your date off and then calling ten minutes later to ask why she hasn't texted you. Pathetic. If Rand accepts the invitations, the noble houses will read something into it. If he declines the invitations, the noble houses will read something into it. If he scratches his nose, the noble houses will read something into it. Rand decides he doesn't want to get involved in this nonsense and throws the invitations into the common room fire, and the noble Houses all read something into it. Get how Daes Dae'mar works now?

Rand decides to hang out in Foregate while Hurin drinks in the inn and Loial stays in the room and reads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a_sx3ozoXI) because he doesn't want any Ogier that might be in the city to see him and ask why he's not home in Stedding Shangtai. Rand walks around the town and sees a puppet Trolloc getting killed by a guy with a wooden sword, and thinks that they don't die that easily, apparently forgetting that he has killed several of them with nothing more than a single slash. Bad guys in fantasy novels are only tough when the heroes aren't fighting them, then they all turn into paper mache and butter. Rand goes into an inn and sees Thom Merillin doing the Great Hunt for an audience. Turns out the Fade in Whitebridge didn't give a crap about old Tommy, just stabbed him in the leg and kept going after Rand and Mat, which I'm sure has got to be a blow to the ego. When a being of pure evil and malice who kills just for the fun of it decides you're not worth the few seconds it would take, you know that you just don't matter in the grand scheme of things. Or that you're an important character and the author needed an excuse to keep you alive so he can bring you back later.

Traab

2016-07-13, 10:22 PM

The thing is, they HAVE heard stories, but most of these people have never left their home town/city thing to go look for themselves. All they know is that in some other kingdom far far away, these people claim to fight monsters. Would you believe them if you had no way of seeing it for yourself? If so, im totally fighting monsters right now. *EDIT* As far as the Aeil go, keep in mind they are not quite as mythical as these people not too long ago lived through these people raiding rampaging and slaughtering through their forces. So their reputation has probably been exaggerated a bit. After all, would YOU want to admit a bunch of normal soldiers spanked your nation and took it to school? Of course not! Clearly these aeil are 8 foot tall monsters capable of skewering 4 men at a time with their wicked spears and they neither bleed nor feel pain! Its the only reason we lost, because we werent fighting humans. Instead they were a massive homunculus army designed for war! In other words, dont expect the reality to quite match up to the hype.

Qwertystop

2016-07-13, 10:23 PM

Like I said.
"Please leave me alone, I don't want anything to do with your politics."

"What could he possibly mean by that? There's no way he thinks we're actually foolish enough to believe such an obvious lie."

Douglas

2016-07-13, 10:59 PM

Being a ta'veren means that you just stumble ass backwards into political intrigue(quite literally in fact in Rand's case)
Being ta'veren also means you randomly stumble into the exact room in one of the world's biggest cities that contains the still-living friend you left for dead hundreds if not thousands of miles away, who is there for completely unrelated reasons where neither of you have even heard rumor of each other since the presumed death. Plot is convenient like that sometimes.

Stories of Aiel might be exaggerated, but the core fact that the Aiel kicked Cairhien's ass quite thoroughly is 100% true. Cairhien plus allies - lots of allies - actually. The Aiel War ended when the Aiel accomplished what they came to do, and went home of their own accord.

Traab

2016-07-13, 11:50 PM

Being ta'veren also means you randomly stumble into the exact room in one of the world's biggest cities that contains the still-living friend you left for dead hundreds if not thousands of miles away, who is there for completely unrelated reasons where neither of you have even heard rumor of each other since the presumed death. Plot is convenient like that sometimes.

Stories of Aiel might be exaggerated, but the core fact that the Aiel kicked Cairhien's ass quite thoroughly is 100% true. Cairhien plus allies - lots of allies - actually. The Aiel War ended when the Aiel accomplished what they came to do, and went home of their own accord.

True but I dont think its because they were so innately superior as warriors so much as their strategies were unknown and unexpected to the standard armies and they got beat. Think, the maginot line in WW2. The French were expecting relatively standard trench warfare like took place in WW1. Had the germans come at them there it would have been a meatgrinder. Instead the germans basically bypassed it. Does that mean germans are somehow incredibly superior warriors than the french? Nope, it means they used an unexpected strategy the french werent prepared for. Isnt that basically what the Aeil did? They used tactics the carheinians and such didnt expect and couldnt counter effectively.

Psyren

2016-07-14, 01:21 AM

Well the other embarrassing thing for Cairhien is that
those weren't even "the Aiel" - it was just like, I think 4 clans total. And it took three armies and the entire Tower healing their troops to withstand it, and even then the Aiel succeeded at their mission, Laman lost his head.

Concerning "Raids":
I agree with Snark, the Seanchan's biggest advantage is that they've been doing this longer than any of the other channeler societies. Shara may be more militant, but they're also weird and undisciplined - look how they behaved when Demandred went down.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-14, 01:25 AM

True but I dont think its because they were so innately superior as warriors so much as their strategies were unknown and unexpected to the standard armies and they got beat. Think, the maginot line in WW2. The French were expecting relatively standard trench warfare like took place in WW1. Had the germans come at them there it would have been a meatgrinder. Instead the germans basically bypassed it. Does that mean germans are somehow incredibly superior warriors than the french? Nope, it means they used an unexpected strategy the french werent prepared for. Isnt that basically what the Aeil did? They used tactics the carheinians and such didnt expect and couldnt counter effectively.

But aren't strategy and tactics part of the art of war? Devising and implementing effective tactics is part of what makes someone a 'great warrior', and I think it is fair to say that the Germans were better warriors than the French in that instance, based on the preparatory work and technical innovations they employed.

Likewise the Aiel. Man for man, the Aiel are taller, stronger, better trained and more experienced than the Cairhienen. That's because of the way their society is structured and it gives them a strategic advantage. To all intents and purposes, they are better warriors; if they were to fight Cairhien again, they would be expected to win again.

lord_khaine

2016-07-14, 01:32 AM

Well, Thomas more or less said what i had on mind regarding the Seanchan/Shara raiding conflict, where i would just point out the Seanchan cant use male Damane, there were only one male collar, and it were destroyed.

Of course the thing is that the Aiel kinda uses strategies and gear that should have lead to their crushing defeat, entering into combat as skirmish troops against armor infantery blocks.

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-14, 02:20 AM

Of course the thing is that the Aiel kinda uses strategies and gear that should have lead to their crushing defeat, entering into combat as skirmish troops against armor infantery blocks.

Well yeah. That's a separate issue and I have to agree with you that it's a little ridiculous. The Aiel clearly have the author on their side, apart from everything else.

anjxed

2016-07-14, 08:38 AM

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

Ninja_Prawn

2016-07-14, 09:56 AM

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

Sorry AES, but I'm backing Rich in this particular race. He doesn't have all that many strips left to go, now.

lord_khaine

2016-07-14, 03:04 PM

Well yeah. That's a separate issue and I have to agree with you that it's a little ridiculous. The Aiel clearly have the author on their side, apart from everything else.

Funny thing is it took reading though the entire serie 2-3 times before i finally caught on to that the Aiel were unarmored skirmishers regularly charging formations of armored cavalery or spearmen :smalltongue:

This popped up in my head, I wonder if this has been asked. So what do you think will finish first: this Let's Read or OotS

I would back AES on the fact that his pace is much faster. We are already quite a bit though book 2 out of 14. I just dont believe he manage to carry though all the way to book 14 before something comes up. I can only believe this little projekt takes quite a bit of time.

georgie_leech

2016-07-14, 04:10 PM

Considering the 'tactics' displayed by so many of the armies, I always imagined that the Aiel were less charging headlong into them as, you know, actually skirmishing. Like, dart in, hurt a couple people, back off. Then, the inevitably noble, inevitably arrogant leader of that particular bunch of soldiers thinks that their clearly superior troops gave the Aiel pause. Then they advance to punish the 'fleeing' Aiel, hoping for the glory that seems to motivate so many of the nobles. Then they get attacked from the sides, rushing after the new group, and then the old one reverses and attacks their flank again, and so on. A disciplined force would very much give them pause, but... well, most of the nation's don't seem to actually have those. And those that do, the Aiel tend to actually respect.

mangosta71

2016-07-14, 04:53 PM

The Seanchan home continent is in turmoil after the events of the books. The expeditionary force sent to reconquer the Westlands is the only functioning part of the Empire that is left. It will probably take a long time until they regain their former strength. First they will have to consolidate their power and position in the conquered lands (Although they are doing a very good job of this, it will still take some time). Then they probably want to reestablish their rule on the western continent. This will take many years (But probably much faster than the last time). And only then will they have their former strength, plus a bit more from conquering the southern parts of the Westlands.
Given the course that civil wars typically take, even once the Seanchan home continent is reunited it will take a few generations to regenerate their strength.

And a minor point: Technology marches on. The Dragons cannot remain an exclusive secret of Andor forever. While in our world Sam Colt is regarded as the person who really made all men equal, in Randland it would be Aludra and her cannons. Once it spreads, every common soldier will have the power of a channeler. In Aviendha's vision we can see technology progressing to a level equal to early 20th century in some 200-300 years. Channeling and beast mastery, while still useful, would probably not be that important any more in such a society.
I would recommend reading Glen Cook's The Instrumentalities of the Night series for several reasons, one of which has to do with this point. At the beginning of the first book, cannons are experimental and mostly regarded as toys; within a couple years of their effectiveness being demonstrated firearms (both field artillery and personal) are being produced in large quantities.

By the way: What happens to male channelers in the Seanchan empire, now that they are no longer cursed? Did this ever get addressed? They could double their number of channelers if they stop killing them, so I guess it is only a matter of time before they start using them as Damane. They may be stubborn but they are not stupid.
Turning male channelers into damane would require ter'angreal that nobody knows how to make.

As for the damane being freed, I didn't mean freed and turn against the seanchan. I just meant destroy the ad'am link. A sul'dam can't use the power once the necklace is broken/removed, or her arm is cut off. A freed damane has 3 results. Best case for the Seanchan she does nothing. Middle case she freaks out and kills everyone around her (friend or foe) as happened a few times. Worst case, she actively defects and starts killing the Seanchan. The point was more they HAVE to work in pairs for no added advantage. Twice the targets with no increase in effectiveness.
Actually, there's another case. If the link is broken but the damane is still leashed (as would happen were a sul'dam to lose an arm or die), she can't do anything. Can't channel, can't even move.
We also need to remember that the Aiel are the best archers outside the Two Rivers. Range is a significant advantage. However, as has been mentioned, a heavy cavalry charge should annihilate them. Yes, a fit human can outrun a horse over the long haul due to our superior endurance but the horse will win a sprint, and lances give the horsemen a big range advantage over infantry equipped with nothing but short spears and knives.

Psyren

2016-07-14, 05:25 PM

All this talk of tactics doesn't take a big factor into account - terrain. Cavalry need big open fields - fighting in forests or canyons riddled with cave openings or in city streets favors Aiel immensely, and they have no reason to engage you in a big meadow. You won't have a cavalry for long when your horses break their legs every other step and can't charge even if they don't. Plus the traditional armies need that sort of wide open terrain for farmland, whereas Aiel don't, and Aiel can sneak past an enemy's front with ease as shown by several septs traveling leagues on foot to infiltrate the heart of Tear.

It's like an army of ninjas vs. an army of knights. Obviously if you just stick them at opposite ends of a battlefield and have them charge each other head on, the knights will win. But the ninjas have no reason to fight that way, when instead they can melt into the terrain, get behind the knights, and assassinate their commanders. Or cut all their horselines in the middle of the night while also ruining their food supply. And so on. The knights meanwhile can't do the same to the Aiel, because neither they nor their horses can't survive in the Waste even without the algai'di-siswai there to fight them directly.

Also, mangosta's point about archery is important. Agincourt comes to mind - getting an army of good archers is not easy, but the Aiel are already doing it, and that can give them an advantage against foes that are superior in other areas, including numbers.

Turning male channelers into damane would require ter'angreal that nobody knows how to make.

It's damn near impossible, or at least highly impractical:

The very nature of male channeling precludes linking entirely. The Male a'dam isn't just unique, Semirhage and Moghedien talk about how impractical it is long-term - it allows the leashed male to eventually establish control over both "sul'dams" wearing the bracelet, such that after enough time passes, just linking to a guy becomes a power struggle and may simply end up letting him access your powers instead.

The idea behind it was simply to leash Rand just long enough to get him to Shayol Ghul and Turn him "properly." As a military solution it just wouldn't pan out, even if the things could somehow be mass-produced.