Spiked chain reach

[bigbaddragon]

A few days ago there was a thread about how the spiked chain is broken. There was a table representing reach of large character wielding spiked chain and it was a square of 50'x50' (ten squares x ten squares).

By this table large guy threatened 96 squares. But when I looked at DMG (pg 308 Space and Reach) it seemed to me that he should threaten 76 targets and also someone mentioned that. But then Fax_Celestis said its ok and I kinda didn't see him talking nonsense so far so I'm wondering if someone could explain and maybe toss me a link so I can see for myself what am I missing?
Errata maybe?

Thanks.

[Raum]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2785850&postcount=463) is the corrected reach for a large creature with a reach weapon. If the reach weapon is a spiked chain, the interior 10' are also threatened. It should match the DMG.

Edit: IMO the spiked chain isn't broken mechanically. It's just silly conceptually. Makes it hard to maintain character immersion when you're laughing at the weapon...

[Tor the Fallen]

Edit: IMO the spiked chain isn't broken mechanically. It's just silly conceptually. Makes it hard to maintain character immersion when you're laughing at the weapon...

You know, I used to think the same thing, until I saw the previews for that movie where Nicholas Cage rides a motorcycle and hits things with a chain.

Now I really want to make a fighter/paladin that wields one of those things while mounted on a rhino or something.

[Fax Celestis]

I made a mistake (it does happen!), and the linked graphical representation is correct.

[Damionte]

He doesn't actually threaten them all at once. The guys closet to him provide cover for the guys in the back. So he couldn't take attacks of opportunity against them all anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

He doesn't actually threaten them all at once. The guys closet to him provide cover for the guys in the back. So he couldn't take attacks of opportunity against them all anyway.

Um...according to what, exactly? He still threatens, regardless of soft cover or not.

[brian c]

He doesn't actually threaten them all at once. The guys closet to him provide cover for the guys in the back. So he couldn't take attacks of opportunity against them all anyway.

Good point. However, if the guys in front (closer to the spiked-chain wielder) are a smaller size category, then the guys in back don't have full cover and could (?) still be subjected to AoOs. I think; anyone care to confirm or reject this?

[Miraqariftsky]

You know, I used to think the same thing, until I saw the previews for that movie where Nicholas Cage rides a motorcycle and hits things with a chain.

Now I really want to make a fighter/paladin that wields one of those things while mounted on a rhino or something.


Yeah? Well, have y'all actually tried wielding any sort of chain or some other similarly flexible item as a weapon in real life? Start with garter ropes and then move up to dog chains.

There are two tricky parts in wielding such a flexible weapon. One is striking something directly in front of you... and managing to reel the striking end back without hitting yourself in the groin. The other is momentum control--- something so large and inherently unstable is definitely difficcult to control.

[Damionte]

Dude... you fight with garter belts?... Oh wait you said garter ropes. What the hell are garter ropes? If you're fighting with your garter how do you hold up your hose?

[ZeroNumerous]

Guess what: Chain whip. Entirely possible.

AoO situation: Exotic Reach. "What cover?"

[Tor the Fallen]

Yeah? Well, have y'all actually tried wielding any sort of chain or some other similarly flexible item as a weapon in real life? Start with garter ropes and then move up to dog chains.

There are two tricky parts in wielding such a flexible weapon. One is striking something directly in front of you... and managing to reel the striking end back without hitting yourself in the groin. The other is momentum control--- something so large and inherently unstable is definitely difficcult to control.

You ever cast spells in real life?
Try the cantrips first, then work your way up to the fireballs....

[bugsysservant]

I had thought that half or more cover negates AoOs. I remember hazily (keeping in mind it was only 3.0) the picture of the androgyne wizard casting a spell around a corner from a goblin with the caption that she (he?) didn't provoke an AoO because she had half cover.

[Raum]

Correct, you don't get AoO's against targets with cover. Assuming it's not total cover, you do still threaten and can still attack - they simply get a +4 AC modifier.

[kpenguin]

Wait... why are the closest squares not threatened? I thought that spiked chains still threaten within your normal reach.

EDIT: From the SRD:

Chain, Spiked

A spiked chain has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, it can be used against an adjacent foe.

You can make trip attacks with the chain. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the chain to avoid being tripped.

When using a spiked chain, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a spiked chain sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.

[Fax Celestis]

The graph presented is for a reach weapon that doesn't threaten adjacents.

[Peregrine]

In 3.5, cover (there's no fractions like 'half cover' any more) does prevent attacks of opportunity.

Cover and Attacks of Opportunity

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

However, soft cover (that granted by creatures) works a bit differently.


Soft Cover

Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

Since reach attacks are treated as range attacks for cover purposes, I think this settles it: soft cover prevents AoOs.

But does that mean you don't threaten them for all other purposes? I don't think so (and I see that before I got this posted, Raum's chimed in to say no). So that means things like Whirlwind Attack should still be okay, not to mention ordinary melee attacks.

[Tor the Fallen]

Since reach attacks are treated as range attacks for cover purposes, I think this settles it: soft cover prevents AoOs.

How?
Non-soft cover, 'hard' cover, if you will, prevents AoO. Soft cover only offers that +4 AC vs. ranged attacks. It says nothing about AoO.

In fact, even says "provides you with cover against ranged attacks". Unless a reach AoO is explicitly a ranged attack, which it ain't, then AoOs against those with softcover is legit.

[Peregrine]

Should have quoted that bit too, huh? :smalltongue:


When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

[Tor the Fallen]

Should have quoted that bit too, huh? :smalltongue:

Doh.
I guess a spiked chain really isn't *all* that terrific.
Though isn't there a point when you get so big that things can't take cover behind other things cause you're looking down on them?

[Peregrine]

Yeah. You'd have to start introducing mild 3D rules to handle it, but in that case, part of the big creature's space is above the covering creature.

Big Creatures and Cover

Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.

Once it's tall enough, you can pick any of the cubes it occupies (which will be above the heads of shorter covering creatures) in order to determine cover.

[Tor the Fallen]

And, as I recall, the spiked chain fighter in question was enlarged, correct?




I'm thinking druid spiked chain fighter (legendary dire ape morph) on his rhino, both of which have an animal growth on them.
Heh heh heh.

[Jack Mann]

Druids no longer gain the animal type when wildshaped, so they can't have animal growth cast on 'em. See the wildshape errata.

[Tor the Fallen]

Druids no longer gain the animal type when wildshaped, so they can't have animal growth cast on 'em. See the wildshape errata.

My imagination is choosing to ignore it :smallmad:

[bigbaddragon]

There is a feat Precise Swing that lets you ignore anything less than total cover when making a melee attack, including a melee attack with a reach weapon. Found it in Eberrron Campaign Setting.

Now I have another question:

In the table represented behind the link in the first reply there is a "path" around our big guy which is 2 squares (10') wide which he doesn't threaten. If I'm reading the table correctly if you enlarge yourself and carry a non spiked chain reach weapon not only you can't hit those adjacent to you (12 squares around you) but also those who are one square away from you (additional 20 squares).
So am I reading the table properly or not?

[Renx]

You can use Whirlwind Attack to use a full attack to attack *all* opponents within reach, no? That would make Spiked Chain really, really nice :P

[Iku Rex]

There are two tricky parts in wielding such a flexible weapon. One is striking something directly in front of you... and managing to reel the striking end back without hitting yourself in the groin. The other is momentum control--- something so large and inherently unstable is definitely difficcult to control.Demonstration of chain weapon: The Bride vs Gogo Yubari, from Kill Bill. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA8bf7Ssgoc)

[Tyger]

Don't have my DMG on me, but I thought that for reach weapons, the diagonal squares each count as five feet. It's even explicitly stated as such in the SRD.

What is it that I am missing there?

[Dhavaer]

You can use Whirlwind Attack to use a full attack to attack *all* opponents within reach, no? That would make Spiked Chain really, really nice :P

A Duskblade/Enlightened Fist//Warblade would be great fun with this. Use Adamantine Hurricane and channel disintegrate. Everything in range gets hit by a disintegrate. Twice.

[Peregrine]

In the table represented behind the link in the first reply there is a "path" around our big guy which is 2 squares (10') wide which he doesn't threaten. If I'm reading the table correctly if you enlarge yourself and carry a non spiked chain reach weapon not only you can't hit those adjacent to you (12 squares around you) but also those who are one square away from you (additional 20 squares).
So am I reading the table properly or not?

That's right. A Large [tall] creature normally has 10ft reach: it can attack adjacent creatures and those one square away.

Normal reach weapons (i.e. not the spiked chain) let you attack at double your normal reach, but not at your normal reach. So the Large creature who could formerly attack at 5ft and 10ft, can attack with reach at 15ft and 20ft (but no closer).


Don't have my DMG on me, but I thought that for reach weapons, the diagonal squares each count as five feet. It's even explicitly stated as such in the SRD.

What is it that I am missing there?

I think this came up on the Simple RAW Q&A thread a while back -- I was privileged (crazy) enough to read through the lot the other day. Most enlightening.

I'm not sure exactly what the wording is in the SRD, but basically, yes: for a Medium creature's reach weapon, or a Large creature's natural reach, the diagonals are counted as being 5ft -- so two diagonal squares are within range. (Normally only the first would be 5ft, the second would be 10ft, the third 5ft, and so on. So the second diagonal square would be out of range.)

The discussion I saw the other day pointed out that this closes up an exploit: if it wasn't so, you could move through the diagonals to avoid an AoO for moving through threatened space.

This isn't a problem for larger characters; I guess that has a lot to do with why the reach areas don't stay square as you go up. (It could also be that really, a Medium reach weapon can reach half of the second diagonal square anyway, even using normal D&D diagonal rules...) But in any case, the DMG's diagrams are very clear on the point. Reach is square up to 10ft, then it starts getting more circular.

[Tyger]

Alrighty. I'll have to re-check that when I get home. Its going to come up at tommorrow's game, so I'd best be ready.

Gracias!

[bigbaddragon]

That's right. A Large [tall] creature normally has 10ft reach: it can attack adjacent creatures and those one square away.

Normal reach weapons (i.e. not the spiked chain) let you attack at double your normal reach, but not at your normal reach. So the Large creature who could formerly attack at 5ft and 10ft, can attack with reach at 15ft and 20ft (but no closer).



Awww crap :smallfrown:

Thanks for clearing that up though.

[JungeonJeff]

Demonstration of chain weapon: The Bride vs Gogo Yubari, from Kill Bill. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tA8bf7Ssgoc)

Only problem with the scene frome Kill Bill, is that even though Gogo clearly looses momentum when her weapon hits solid objects, you never see her regaining that momentum, its always between camera shifts. Its a pretty scene, but i highly dought its a good representation of how a spiked chain would work in D&D.

[Tyger]

Only problem with the scene frome Kill Bill, is that even though Gogo clearly looses momentum when her weapon hits solid objects, you never see her regaining that momentum, its always between camera shifts. Its a pretty scene, but i highly dought its a good representation of how a spiked chain would work in D&D.

Yes, but thankfully for the catgirls out there, we don't need to worry about that. Its fantasy. :)

[AtomicKitKat]

I could have sworn I read a ruling that the Soft Cover rules don't apply to AoOs(which you can't make with Ranged Attacks anyway), but it could have been from the ever unreliable CustServ.:smallconfused: