Designing an Orcish horde: The power gamer's approach

[ES Curse]

So I had the idea recently for a campaign set in northern Faerun where the Orcs united under the combined forces of a cult to Grummush and a military-tactical orc genius (Like, Genghis Khan/Alexander the Great level genius) and have been preparing for years to wage a massive, brutal push to create an Orc empire and subjugate the "lesser" races to their rightful place under the chosen people of Grummush.

While I have my own ideas of how to do this, I want to see what GitP has to offer here. So, from the perspective of the cult to Grummush (probably orc war clerics) and the military general, (who himself is a Fighter of either the Champion or Battlemaster persuasion, haven't developed an actual fighting style for him yet) how would you leverage your own efficacy and hordes of orcs/orc allies (goblins, ogres and the like) to prepare for such an assault? This is a no-holds-barred exercise in supervillainy here. How would you structure/equip your forces? How would you raid the resource-rich human settlements and incorporate them into your empire? I want the most brutal, efficient orc horde this side of Faerun!

[Safety Sword]

You mean like this? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Many-Arrows)

[Gastronomie]

The Orcs' main ability is their mobility (double the movement every turn = every day is quite terrifying an ability). Much like Nazi Germany, Blitzkrieg will be their most effective strategy. Once the all-out attack starts, they will keep on moving onward, destroying everything in their path before the enemies can call for reinforcements or build an effective line of defense.

[ES Curse]

You mean like this? (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Many-Arrows)

Not quite. The Many-Arrows seem content to maintain their holdings and raid nearby settlements on an as-needed basis. These guys are going to conquer as much territory as possible in Grummush's name, and kill anyone who stands in the way. Think fantasy Mongols+Nazis+ISIS.

[Know(Nothing)]

I mean, if they're lead by a god and a genius, they probably have a pretty good idea of who will be the first to resist them. If they can, they might target those armies first(depending on the campaign, this would likely be the forces of the major cities). Once they're wiped out, they can take their time with the smaller, less-defensible towns and villages.

A genius would probably understand the allegiances between cities, countries, and territories. Done correctly, they could target ones that either have no major allies, or overwhelm the combined group all at once, leaving only neutral or enemy cities. Though after a while, even they would recognize the threat posed and join together to resist the orcs.

If they have access to non-orc spies, or orcs really good at disguising, having them infiltrated into major cities would be an asset. Also paying off politicians to either not address the threat or to hamstring their own forces can also be viable. Tactical assassinations, choking off resources, introducing deadly diseases well-ahead of a siege-- all the classics. Casters allocated to each major platoon so that coordinated attacks(and everything else) can be easily communicated via magic. Treaties and pacts with powerful monsters(many dragons, good and evil, often protect cities either for pay or for goodness.) Treaties and pacts with powerful NPCs(druids, even evil ones, will not take kindly to war tearing apart the natural world, for example). Depending on your campaign, powerful magic locations might be worth capturing and exploiting early. Thieving powerful artifacts could make a big difference. Some sort of magical cloaking of the presence of a massive force would make catching cities off-guard much easier.

[MaxWilson]

So I had the idea recently for a campaign set in northern Faerun where the Orcs united under the combined forces of a cult to Grummush and a military-tactical orc genius (Like, Genghis Khan/Alexander the Great level genius) and have been preparing for years to wage a massive, brutal push to create an Orc empire and subjugate the "lesser" races to their rightful place under the chosen people of Grummush.

While I have my own ideas of how to do this, I want to see what GitP has to offer here. So, from the perspective of the cult to Grummush (probably orc war clerics) and the military general, (who himself is a Fighter of either the Champion or Battlemaster persuasion, haven't developed an actual fighting style for him yet) how would you leverage your own efficacy and hordes of orcs/orc allies (goblins, ogres and the like) to prepare for such an assault? This is a no-holds-barred exercise in supervillainy here. How would you structure/equip your forces? How would you raid the resource-rich human settlements and incorporate them into your empire? I want the most brutal, efficient orc horde this side of Faerun!

You're definitely going to be doing a lot of fighting at night. The great weakness of orc hordes is archers, specifically horse archers; by fighting at night you avoid all that.

If you can train your orcs in Stealth, so much the better. But even with vanilla MM orcs, this will help a lot. During the day, dig in behind fortifications. You can dig a new fort every day, just like the Romans.

It goes without saying BTW that you need to get there the "firstest with the mostest". No parcelling out your orcs in little "6-8 encounters per day" sized packets. Hit 'em hard and swift and the humans will crumple.

[Hrugner]

The biggest thing for them would be allies. You don't want them to start off attacking places full of loyal followers. You also don't want them attacking places where defenses are strong or shared between regions. Their best bet is to start off doing regular hero stuff before attacking socially connected humanoid communities.
As a general story timeline:
-criminal activity begins slowing as does monstrous threats and other military concerns. Orc banners and bodies occasionally found in destroyed villain strongholds.
-orcs tentatively ally with criminal and monstrous threats by offering them leniency in exchange for their support.
-small allied farming communities stop paying taxes and decrease shipments of goods to human settlements as they begin paying orc tribes for their assistance.
-cities begin hiring fewer guards and soldiers sending armies off to more harried military fronts.
-traveling bards and storytellers show up and tell tales of the orcs giving humanoids the help and protection they normally need to beg for. They offer to bring messages of need to the orcs.
-tax collectors and nobility are attacked on the roads. orc soldiers are careful to make it look as if these are parts of peasant revolts, earlier bards include these peasant revolts in their stories.
-an alliance of collected farmers pool together enough money to hire the orc army to attack humanoid strongholds. It may be apparent at this time that the orcs hired themselves and let each farmer believe that the others were covering their portion.
-the orcs ride at the rear of large humanoid serf armies and "retake the cities from the plundering merchants and/or nobels who have taxed us into slavery".

I think that's a pretty good start.

[ES Curse]

Plan so far (implementation pending, timeline of events without pesky adventurers stepping in)
-Cut off access to the southbound roads from Luskan and Mirabar (Prevents quick movement of information/support)
-Occupy Luskan, which puts a chokehold on the area's sea trade
-Invade and conquer Mirabar, making use of the city's resources to restock/re-equip my army
-Sow chaos in Waterdeep, preventing them from properly mobilizing support for later assaults
-Strike at Neverwinter while maintaining control of Luskan and Mirabar
-Send forces south, conquering or razing all settlements in the way
-Claim Waterdeep, completing the rough triangle around Neverwinter Wood and the Sword Mountains
-Reap the area's riches and prepare for further assaults

Ideally, this sequence won't actually be completed, but it helps to envision what exactly the orc forces are doing at a given time. The main obstacles to get around are properly shutting down roads without drawing the Lord's Alliance and overtaking fortified cities with my army.

[Know(Nothing)]

Man, if there are enough orcs to take any of those cities, that's a really hard secret to keep. Even if major roads are bottled, there is magical communication, presumably there are ravens or pigeons to carry messages, escape by river or sea, and good old fashioned trudging through the woods and/or mountains.

A force that large gathering would get the attention of SOMEONE, and that info would eventually get to Waterdeep at very least. How many are there? How are they all being fed and supplied? How many powerful casters are among them? How did someone amass all these orcs without anyone knowing? Have they taken any smaller towns?

By the time you take the first city, every other city will know of your existence, intentions, and eventually your forces. No matter how clandestine you're being. Presumably you don't have a navy, and it would be all but impossible to take all of Luskan's navy, so someone will get away by sea and inform the rest of the Sword Coast what you've started.

I could see you taking Luskan pretty easily, and maaaaybe Mirabar. But now Neverwinter and Waterdeep will be absolutely on you, and that would be absolutely ridiculous to stand against. So if you're making a timeline and you start it with overtaking Luskan, it would be at least a month before they took Mirabar, and years before they decisively take any other major city.

[Gastronomie]

The Nazi were able to go wild during the first several years of WWII because Hitler made the other countries actually acknowledge him empowering his army before the war even started. If the orcs can do something similar (example: well-done peace treaty for decades, then suddenly switches to being invasive), they might win. Otherwise, it's very difficult to collect a giant army without being noticed.

[Kane0]

So like an Orcish Hannibal?

Keep is simple and effective, then apply decisions and options for maximum flexibility.

- When initiating battle your horde is divided into three portions: the assault, the flank and the reserve. Everybody knows exactly what they're supposed to do and you as the commander have a good number of options available to you with a relatively simple setup. Maximum flexibility and discipline, minimal confusion and wastage.

- Focus on strengths, minimize weaknesses. Orcs charge well and goblins ambush well so movement is a key factor in your strategies. You have a good chance of avoiding most fights you don't find favorable, and ending fights you do like the odds of in one decisive stroke. Darkvision means night attacks are a better option, and high STR/CON indicates faster build times for fortifications.

- Apply flavor/spice efficiently. Don't have so many moving pieces you can't keep track of them, tools are useless if lost. Half a dozen or less is best, say for example you have a small group of highly trained elites sent on dangerous or covert assignments, a bundle of magic wands you give to lieutenants, a higher quality ration you like to give to your first line troopers and scouts for morale, a handful of high level casters you hold as advisors and smiths that specialize in medium armor and barbed swords. This gives your force a distinct flavor and forte without becoming predictable.

- Have a few wildcards. Similar to above, have 1-3 'consumables' you can use when the going gets tough. Too many and you become reliant, too few and you risk being anticipated.

- Be prepared to change and adapt. This may mean altering methodology but also long term plans, and this is one of those crucial things that sorts the lords from the knaves.

Ogres are probably not a very good idea either. They are dumber and slower than orcs and also eat more, plus have no real benefits compared to regular troops. Their size isn't even redeeming, since they just aren't big enough to be considerably more scary than an orc/goblin squad.
Hobgoblins would make fine additions, they don't have any special qualities but they have the fundamantals down like nobody else, and their goals line up nicely with yours.
Bugbears are a little meh compared to orcs and goblins. They would be good with goblins in ambushed if well trained and placed, but otherwise they are just slower, more brutish orcs.
Gnolls might make decent allies, making solid second line troops that can efficiently finish off what the orc blitz leaves behind. Their temperament might not make it worthwhile though.
And of course you have more exotic options, but at that point anything is good so long as you can effectively control it

[Gwendol]

The orcs should enlist monsters aligned with their cause. Ogres, hill giants, frost giants, and maybe even fire giants could be bribed/rallied for supporting the raids. If goblinoids are enlisted (Why? They don't serve Gruumsh) then I'd propose to use them as cavalry units foremost: goblin and hobgoblins riding wolves and worgs. Gnolls and Minotaurs serve demons, so they are your more disposable shock troops. Enemy casters will be the greatest threat, as will aerial strikes from good-aligned dragons or other flying units.
The orcs should ally with evil humans, especially wizards, to win.

[ES Curse]

So building on the political/large scale portion of the plan, the orcs will need to form an Axis Powers to counter the Lord's Alliance ("Allies"). Who would work with orcs toward the mutual destruction of the human city-states?

Appreciating the notes on optimizing orc/goblin troop tactics as well. We have great shock troops and ambushers/skirmishers in our orc and goblin forces, but we do seem to lack power/draw-breaker options. Would ogres work here? And how can the budding orc warlord counter those pesky spellcasters? We do have the support of Grummush, but I don't know how far his divine guidance/boons can take us before other gods start to counter him.

[ES Curse]

If goblinoids are enlisted (Why? They don't serve Gruumsh)

They aren't so much enlisted as forcibly incorporated under threat of violent death.

[uraniumrooster]

If I were an Orcish general...

Orcs would obviously by my main infantry force. I would equip them with Chainmail, Shield, and Battleaxe, and maybe train them in the Protection fighting style (it's kind of a lame fighting style for a single fighter in a small adventuring party, but for a line of infantry formed up in a shield wall, all able to impose disadvantage against their neighbors, it's quite nice). I would also have a force armed with pikes and hooks to counter enemy cavalry, and a force of shock troops armed with greataxes for quickly hitting and breaking through enemy lines, then wreaking havoc in the backfield.

Goblins would be the archers and light cavalry (worg riders) force. Their cunning action allows them to stay out of melee and keep sniping, and the worg riders (preferably also with bows) can serve as outriders to screen against opposing scouts and cavalry, and flank around to harass enemy archers in battle.

The horde won't really have a true heavy cav force, because that's what Ogres, Trolls, and Hill Giants are for. They can charge right into and through enemy lines, with the greataxe-wielding Orcish shock troops following right behind them. They also make for great walking siege equipment... who needs a battering ram when you have a hill giant with a tree-sized club?

For combat mages, I might try to strike a deal with some Yuan-ti, Oni, and/or Hags. Orcish and Goblin shamans can do light-duty combat spell-casting, pray for the favor of Gruumsh, and provide moral support for my troops, but let's be honest, they're not going to be able to compete with human wizards. It's worth giving up a share of the loot to get some decent casters on my side.

Obviously, no war is won by the army alone, so I'd also want a robust intelligence network. For this, I would look into hiring the services of some dopplegangers. Shifty devils, but useful, and again it's worth giving up a share of the loot to have operatives inside my enemies' camps and cities. I'd give them sending stones for quick communication.

The major human cities in the north that I'd want to make priority targets would also be difficult to siege because they all have ports and would be able to get supplies by sea. I might send envoys to the kua-toa and see how they feel about disrupting some of the human's ocean-going trade while I cut off their land routes. Or maybe some of the pirates in Luskan would be willing to work for me, if I let them keep some of their autonomy.

Most importantly, supplies. I wouldn't plan on feeding my army by raiding and pillaging alone and, beside that, I also want the lands to stay productive after I conquer them. Most of the human lands already have roads, so supply trains shouldn't have too much difficulty, but I would probably have spent some time building up the infrastructure in our Orcish homeland, to keep supplies flowing out to my forces on the campaign trail. I would also offer small towns and villages a deal - swear fealty to me, agree to a small tribute in grain or treasure, and I will leave them alone and protect them against other threats. If they mount a resistance, or renege on their end of the deal, I would crush their puny militia forces to keep them in line, but still try to inflict as little collateral damage to the civilian population and buildings as possible. Like I said, I want these lands to stay productive. I would exact harsh punishment on any of my soldiers that get carried away while assaulting a settlement - not out of moral objection, necessarily, but because I need the humans to work for me, and they're more likely to do that if they see me as a decent ruler, stronger and smarter than their current preening human lords. If any of them had any grievances to take up with their former lords, I'd even let them join my army.

[BrianDavion]

the big advantage orcs have is sheer numbers, if you read your FR history it's almost a regular event every few centuries for the Orcs to, due to population pressures, pour out of the mountains conquering and plundering until they basicly run out of orcs. the thing the kingdom of many arrows did was it stopped and actually consolidated.

given the fracticious nature of Orcs I don't think a orc warlord is going to be able to get his orcs to massivly alter how they fight wars. and I doubt they'd be able to get many allies of quality,

thing is, they don't need allies, an orc hoard, a real "civlization destroying hoard" is going to have an army as far as they eye can see most likely, literally strtetching to the Horizen.

in that case the big cities might be able to hold out. but smaller cities? screwed.

and you could use this for a campaign as well. it'd literally be a "endurance trial" for the PCs

[JackPhoenix]

Step one: Find a better race to work with, like hobgoblins. Orcs are lazy (good luck making them do any important work, build fortifications or care about conquered territory), stupid (but then, you don't need geniuses when you're one), undisciplined (the worst part... you have to get them following orders other than "charge and kill everything in your path") and overly violent (good in a battle, bad in a protracted war... they'll start killing each other when there's nothing better to do, like during a long siege or holding a territory). Their tribes aren't prone to cooperation, every chieftain will think he'll do your work better than you (or worse, that he deserves your place, and decides to prove it to you with his axe at the worst possible moment), and the horde will likely go for the first sign of loot/something to murder instead of following complex strategies.

Having Gruumsh on your side may help somewhat, but still, you'd have to reform the race first if you want to do anything more than carving a swath of destruction through the land only to be driven back eventually. The kingdom of Many-Arrows is relatively small, and it works in spite of Gruumsh's wishes, not because of them.

[hymer]

(double the movement every turn = every day is quite terrifying an ability)

Isn't it only when moving towards an enemy they can see, though? It has little strategic relevance.

[Gastronomie]

Isn't it only when moving towards an enemy they can see, though? It has little strategic relevance.Oh, sorry. I didn't have the MM with me when typing, and yes, you're right.

It does open up possibilities of teaming up with other forces, though.

[Socratov]

well, you do what any brilliant tactician did IRL (i.e. Julius Caesar, Alexanger the Great, Charlemange, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Hitler(though atrocious, his armies were arguable successful at first), but stop following their example right before they plan to invade Russia in winter (pretty much every great commander's weakness).

this will start with the following steps:


get you people in line. Every single one of them. man, woman, child and get them to support your cause fanatically
create economic booming years thorugh war industrialisation
get lots of money
get lots of food
make it so that your warmongering/fanaticising/industrialisation appears to be either cultural andvancement, scientific advancement or economic advancement
make sure your immedeate neighbours at least leave you alone, but even better join them. give them stuff like food etc. A starving neighbour is a dangerous neighbour indeed.
once at the top of your ability (the moment you start to hit the caps) start annexxations
annex the friendlies first through invitations and rewards (early bird specials, prestige, etc.)
identify your holes in your abilities and make sure you plug them*
divide teh areas in two categories: locations to raze/loot, locations to take over
plan routes accordingly. Before you take over a location make sure you have razed and looted first so you can choke the enemy out leaving the city ripe for the taking
once you take over a location, safeguard it. blitzkrieg is nothing if there is no lasting effect. this means you make sure provisioning, remaking the defenses and consolidating your advancement and return to step 6. when you are done conquering remember to shift back to non-warfare economis and social measures. A good way to do this is to give warheroes some lands to settle in (to keep them from overreaching) and to promote childgrowth to fit your new empire. Once that is up to the required level again, repeat these steps to once again increase your empire. Oh, before I forget, try to gain immortality so you don't have to train a newcomer and keep the newly minted empire together.


And remember that consolidation is not wimpy behaviour: it a successful emperor's best move. No use gaining lots of land if you can't keep it.

if you need ways to communciate to your people that you have enough for now, talk about how the orkish people flourish and that Gruumsh has looked favourably on the chosen people. For now just procreate, get up to strength again until Gruumsch will send you another vision of spilt blood and churned earth when the time has come to once again conquest for the glory of Gruumsch and orks everywhere.


this makes it possible for you to appease your neighbours, make them economically dependant on you so you can, when the time comes, annex them in due time.

[MrStabby]

Basic principle is to always outnumber your enemies by as big a margin as possible.

Use your fastest forces to destroy bridges, to burn crops and to start forest fires. This will mean the orc's enemies have to devote resources to protecting farms and forests and drawing them away from the front lines.

Have a multiple stage strategy. Work out which parts of the world you can conquer quickly, and which parts may need you to regroup for. When destroying bridges you are not impeding your own forces if you cut off areas that you don't want immediate access to. Those areas the orcs are not looking to occupy can be burned/pillaged to draw out opposing forces and to create a scorched earth style buffer zone that it is harder to move large armies across.

Target enemy supplies. To move an army you need food for soldiers and food for horses. Sure horses can graze, but that takes a lot of time out of the day. Yes you can move an army without horses/mules but moving heavy equipment like weapons/armour over long distances is hard. Coupled with pillaging crops along the way of an advancing army you will really give the enemy a hard time moving large forces. Smaller forces may be able to forage along the way, but small forces will be outnumbered by the orc army.

Don't just kill soldiers on the battlefield. Kill them in their cities, in their barracks, poison their food, threaten their families so they desert to defend them. Before each battle leave escape routes open to encourage deserters to leave the enemy army.

Be aware that the humans will be trying to do the same to you. If roads can't support your supply needs, consider having the trust of your invasion follow a river and use supply barges. These will be easier to defend than on the roads and can move a high tonnage of supplies.

Time the campaign well. I suggest late autumn as a start. The crops are gathered in but not yet shipped to the granaries of the city. Temperatures are falling but it is not yet so cold that things won't burn if you want them to. By the time the enemy is able to react, muster and deploy their armies and solicit help from allies you are heading into winter and it is much harder to mobilise. The turning point of the campaign is then likely to be in the dead of winter where, in the field, it is those with the highest CON score best able to endure the conditions. Once the kingdoms cannot protect their citizens in the open refugees will pour into the cities. Let plague and famine over the winter do its job. Clerics can keep a lot of people alive, but small numbers compared to the population of the city.

[uraniumrooster]

given the fracticious nature of Orcs I don't think a orc warlord is going to be able to get his orcs to massivly alter how they fight wars. and I doubt they'd be able to get many allies of quality

I disagree. The OP said he wants his leader to be a conqueror comparable to Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan. That kind of leader doesn't come along very often, and I would say they can be pretty easily defined by their ability to unite a fractured people and motivate them to change the way they fight wars, going on to conquer most of the known world in the process. Alexander brought the separate Greek city states under his rule, Tamujin united the Mongolian tribes, and we all know about their subsequent conquests. I think the kind of Orcish leader the OP is going for wouldn't just be an average warlord, he'd be an Oricsh Emperor, able to make even Many-Arrows bend knee to his rule. I think making an Orcish horde that was disciplined and well-organized would make for a fun & terrifying campaign because it breaks the mold of what the players expect from an Orcish horde. It's not just a rampaging tide of mindless orcs burning and pillaging everything in their path, but a well-planned and executed invasion and occupation force. It would also present a very real threat to realms far beyond just the northern cities - with the numbers at their disposal and a brilliant leader to guide them, the orcs could potentially conquer all the way to Calimshan.

As for allies, once the outside world realized that this was more than just your average rampaging horde that would eventually starve itself out, but an actual budding empire, many members of the other nations would likely be willing to work with & for the new Emperor if there was profit in it for them. Look at Genghis Khan - he was renowned for his ability to win the loyalty of foreign subjects, and for his use of foreign agents as spies and advisors. The Orcish Emperor would also have to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses of his people, and acknowledge that while his Orcs are great warriors, magic and subtlety aren't areas where they excel, so he would need to look for foreigners to fill those roles and strengthen his empire.


well, you do what any brilliant tactician did IRL (i.e. Julius Caesar, Alexanger the Great, Charlemange, Ghengis Khan, Napoleon Bonaparte, Hitler(though atrocious, his armies were arguable successful at first), but stop following their example right before they plan to invade Russia in winter (pretty much every great commander's weakness).

I agree wholeheartedly with this post. I would also add that all of these leaders are noted for their use of sophisticated (for their various time periods) communication and intelligence networks. Knowledge is power, and all the great conquerors in history understood how to control the flow of information so they knew their more about their enemies than their enemies knew about them. The example of Hitler is a good one for illustrating the value of military communications and intelligence, as the breaking the Enigma code was arguably the biggest turning point in the war - as well as Hitler's ill advised decision to fight a war of attrition against the Soviet Union, as you mentioned.

[Tanarii]

Are you setting this up so that the threat has been building for years and the campaign starts at the point of invasion, or are the players going to be interfering with the building up of forces period? Because to be fair, any force of orcs capable of threatening Waterdeep is going to have been gathering for decades. Possibly more.

IMO the best move any force hoping to threaten the far north of the Swordcoast can make is to strike an alliance with the yaun-ti empire just to the south.

BTW WotC is basically about to release an adventure path doing this (or something close), but with giants, in a few months. Unless you're going to wing the entire invasion, it's gonna take you until Fall 2016 to plan out the campaign properly anyway. Might be worth waiting, unless you're stuck on Orcs.