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View Full Version : Stealing from the party cool or not cool?



Mithhuan
2007-06-28, 10:11 PM
After reading the post on splitting up loot. I see that many players don't like the Rogue stealing from the party. So tell me do you like the Rogue stealing from the party? Do you try to catch him? How do you handle him once he's caught? And, If you're the Rogue; Do you steal from the party? and How do you do it?

The group I play with actually expect the Rogue to skim off the top, bottom, middle and the sides. We think that it's part of playing the character. After all, the Rogue is not Lawful. Now given if the Rogue starts taking all the treasure the characters will get suspicious and soon the Rogue may be fed to the next big monster that comes along. Once while playing a Paladin, I caught the Rogue stealing, arrested him and turned him over to the local authorities and he spent a week in jail. Afterward the Paladin spent most of the adventure trying to get the Rogue to see the light and turn from his larcenous ways.

In another campaign I play the Rogue. And being the character with the highest appraise and bluff skill I am the one that sells unwanted and unneeded items. I usually skim off about 10% of the amount we get paid for an item. You know for the "Old Rogues Retirement Fund". On occasion I pilfer an item or two. Just last weekend one character found a pouch and tried to pocket it another character spotted him took it away from him and started chewing him out for trying to steal from the party. As he took it away and started yelling I snatched it from him, opened it and palmed one of the four gems inside.

Raum
2007-06-28, 10:21 PM
It depends. If the players (not the characters) don't have an issue with it there's no problem. However, the rogue's player should also expect to handle any consequences from being caught in character as well. Even if it means rolling up a new character while the klepto character rots in prison.

On the other hand, if other players consider it cheating and react poorly OOC, the rogue should refrain from or modify such behavior. The rogue could just as easily steal some "trophy" from targets as gold or items. Remember, it's supposed to be fun for all.

Xuincherguixe
2007-06-28, 10:22 PM
Generally? I would say the answer is no. The party should be able to get along with each other.

Now if you're playing a fairly cutthroat game, it's another story.

When one gets right down to it, there's an advantage the Rogue has to having the other party members around. They can help him take on the hordes of indescribable unnatural hordes between the Rogue and the treasure. It is safe to say that generally, those dungeons hold more wealth than the fops in town that said Rogue would normally be targeting.

I would say that if the Rogue gets caught stealing, cut him out of his share of the treasure. Or several shares even. And if that doesn't work? Then it's time to get creative with some magic. (Trap them in a realistic illusion that seems to last for days in which the Rogue is forced to eat his own brain, again and again)

Damionte
2007-06-28, 10:26 PM
Our groups don't let the rogues steal from the party. Our players simply understand that it's more trouble than it's worth. If they insist they can play it out but we've all been playing for too long and folks just so rarely get away with it. We actually try to shy away from internal party conflicts. Actually we fight even fight about rather we should shy away from or allow such things to go on.

We have a big party. 8 players including the GM. We only play once a week and we have a hard enough time getting anythign done when we're all focused and on point. Let along spending an hour or more resolving an internal nit pick fight over who get's what item, or who stole what. We play it pure need before greed on loot and we move on. The alternative isn't worth any of our time. Yes it may be entertaining for 1 guyplaying the rogue but it just annoys the other 7 and that doesn't solve anything.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-28, 10:27 PM
Unless you're playing a really cutthroat game or you are sure that your group (by which I mean the players) are completely OK with you doing so, I am of the opinion that if your character concept revolves around stealing from your teammates, you need a new character concepts. D&D is a cooperative game, and very few adventurers will put up with someone who is constantly stealing from them, especially if this person is one of the ones watching their back in combat.

There is absolutely nothing that requires you to play a rogue that steals from your party, even rogues that are generally quite thieving. Rogues can and do have friends, and are able to refrain from ripping off or screwing over their friends when the occasion arises.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-28, 10:35 PM
You seem to be mixing up "rogue" with "thief". They're not the same. Rogues can just as easily be "dirty fighters", "thugs", "wilderness trappers", "detectives", "trapsmiths" and more just as easily as a "thief". Don't get caught in stereotypes.

Seffbasilisk
2007-06-28, 10:37 PM
Normally when I play rogues with sticky fingers, I skim about 5 to 10% off the top, but if a character really need an item, I'm the first (and usually the only) to chip in.

Destro_Yersul
2007-06-28, 10:38 PM
One of my players is currently doing this. He's the one who always finds the loot, because he's got the highest search and is also the only one to bother looking.

So he skims a lot off the big pouches and gives the others some of the rest. He hardly ever takes the items they find though, so it evens out.

Dark Knight Renee
2007-06-28, 10:39 PM
I wouldn't appreciate the rogue stealing, nor anyone else for that matter. Most of the parties in my game would step on the habit rather heavily. Usually when theft does occur in these parties, it's because someone wants to Do Something Stupid(tm), needs someone else's stuff to pull it off, and knows full well that the others will stop them if they get wind of it. If those characters caught someone stealling or cheating them, they'd probably give that someone the boot real fast unless he/she had good reason. Generally, the party should opperate as a team, and stealing from your allies is usually a bad idea. I don't get adventuring parties or players who feel otherwise.


Additionally... Most (half or more) of the PCs who have gone through my FR party have Rogue levels. Most of them don't fit anywhere close to the stereotype, much less the thieving part of it. I think only the CE halfling has klepto potential in her character - though mostly she's Belkar-esque, complete with a well-worded Mark of Justice. That, or the CN half-elf, but he already got demoted to Background Character/NPC for ticking off a paladin PC a good while back and shouldn't be stupid enough to tick anyone off with such a stunt a second time.

Cobra
2007-06-28, 10:41 PM
Yep, generally I'd agree that players stealing from players almost always detracts from the general enjoyment of the game. It wastes a lot of time, and leaves many players feeling frustrated and annoyed.

Now if your game or players specifically enjoy that kind of internal conflict, then go for it. But unless you've discussed that kind of thing OOC, the rogue should NOT be stealing from the party.

And as far as getting caught, I would have a hard time meting out any punishment besides death. Beyond the normal offense of stealing, there is also the sense of betrayal when you learn that a 'friend' is stealing from you. Also, something to keep in mind is that in most medieval settings, theft of more than a very small amount was usually punishable by death. So unless the campaign setting is particularly enlightened, rogue players should be aware of the potential consequences of stealing from their fellow PC's.

Tharivol123
2007-06-28, 10:49 PM
I only played rogue once (3.0 rules), it was the "Thief" type, and I did steal from the party.
The way we handled it was nice and easy.
We let him keep track of the loot found and who took which items at the first stage of loot division. I would do an appraise check, and he would pass me the amounts in secret. When it came time to sell the unwanted loot, the DM called for a random spot check from everyone (he did these often), and compared to a hide or pick pocket roll that I made before the session started.
After selling everything, he passed each player what their share was on a scrap of paper. If anybody made a succesful check, the loot was divided evenly. If nobody did, I had an extra 10% total.

Edit: It was known that my character had high skill points in pick pocket and that I did routine attempts while in town (DM secret responses on success). We both passed my extra gold off as the proceeds from my pick pocket attempts.

Diggorian
2007-06-28, 10:57 PM
Rogues should steal for not from the party. Since I usually play fighter types I especially dislike a skimming rogue. I'm bleeding, covered in Orc blood, burnt, downing anti-toxin before the next Fort save and he deserves a little extra?

I just better not catch them, because then trust is weakened or flies out the window -- if the thief doesnt. Is he stealing on his watch while we sleep? If we spot a big enough treasure is he gonna sneak attack me to get it?

Adventures have enough trouble.

Yechezkiel
2007-06-28, 11:04 PM
There's usually someone who resents it out of character, even if you have a really RP heavy group.

I posted the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48690) because I am "the Rogue" once again in a campaign that's just gotten underway. Now I have played rogues before, and I have played characters that take more then their fair share (anyone else feel like the guy that can Identify can get away with murder?), but this time around, my CN rogue has taken a leadership position and has decided to go out of his way to make everyone feel and see that the wealth is getting spread around (evenly).

This mostly came up because, game one, I saw myself becoming the pusher-forwarder (i.e. leader through rp) and I was catching ooc flak from some of the new players about being the one carrying something (whatever it was, gems, coins we'd count later). Right then and there I knew my rogue was going to try to take control of the loot to ensure he'd be getting the right amount, and if and ONLY if they tried to stop me ic out of distrust, would I try to sleight them (pun!).

That said I really do enjoy all the responses in that other thread. I've played under one or two of those general ideas and am almost at a good conclusion for the game I'm in (going on game 4 and we're still not back in a town!).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-28, 11:08 PM
In general, when playing Rogues, I play fair with the party and don't skim off the top. Way I figure is this: I can't take on a dragon by myself, but me and my party should be able to down one. One sixth a share of dragon horde is one damnsight better than being a dragon's snack. So I play it fair with my mates, because I get more in the long run and don't have to keep running a bluff with my own group, who I'm with 100% of the time. You know the old saw... you can't fool all of the people all of the time... sooner or later, I'm gonna slip and get caught, and then they're prolly gonna get real pissed at me. If I'm lucky, they'll strip me and kick me out of the group, possibly in a hazardous place. If I'm not lucky, they'll kill me. So it is in my own best interests to play it fair with my own group.

Ashdate
2007-06-28, 11:43 PM
I think the Rogue skimming 5-10% off the top is fine if they get the chance. My big rule is NO magic items should be taken, for then it's not just gold. It's personal.

- Eddie

Niasen
2007-06-28, 11:44 PM
Actually, as long as the player doesn't become "Chaotic Stupid" about it, I don't see to much wrong about stealing from other players really. Skimming a little off the top from the treasure you had to disarm about 49 traps and got hit by one of them to get to seems actually in character, ESPECIALLY if that person came from a thieving background. Not to mention, it could actually be only technical thieving.

For example, say he finds a treasure chest with an item he REALLY REALLY wants, and its one that if they were splitting up treasure, he'd OBVIOUSLY get (Something adding an insane amount to his trap finding or sneaking/hiding skill), perhaps he palms it or puts it in his sack and never mentions it to the others, and he "Graciously" gives them all the treasure when he gets back to show how they're his good buds and such and how he appreciates when they save his Sneak attacking hide from undead creatures and such. Technically and OOC wise All he really took was his fair share...but RP wise its stealing and in character, same with some gold. Sure, every once in a while have him ACTUALLY steal a little, but hell...HAVE HIM GET CAUGHT SOMETIMES!! Have him laugh and say "I was just teasing" or "Umm...I was just taking this to go get enchanted, I SWEAR" or something, and let the players either duke it out, laugh, or make him actually take the dang thing to get enchanted at HIS expense lol. Not to mention it'd give the rogue every once in a while an excuse in RP heavy games to go around and "borrow" the gold coins of NPC's in towns, basically to go pay back what he stole from his buddies (Sleight of hand works BOTH ways, you can take something away from someone without them noticing, and you can put it back ON them to!)

Jannex
2007-06-29, 01:22 AM
Most of the time, I'm opposed to the idea of stealing from the party. Rogue =! thief, after all (and I've had characters get very irritated with other PCs who failed to grasp this fact). Even a character who dabbles in pickpocketing (and when I play criminal types, I usually favor second-story artists over pickpockets anyway) has friends and compatriots whom she respects, and it's kind of a point of honor not to screw over somebody who watches your back in a fight.

There was one occasion I indulged in this particular vice, though, but there were some mitigating circumstances:

the group had roped me into playing an Evil campaign, so they kind of had it coming anyway
my character didn't have any real overwhelming affection for them (we were kind of pulled together by circumstance, and a job gone bad)
another character (the LN halfling wizard, ironically enough--that player never really had a solid grasp on "playing his alignment" or, for that matter, "playing his character's personality") suggested it while the two of us were selling off loot, and my character kind of went along with it as a diplomatic gesture, as much as anything else; previously, she'd snapped and tried to kill him for an unfortunate comment he'd made (she wasn't precisely what you'd call "sane"...)
like the revenge business, there isn't a lot of money in the genocide business


I don't think the other PCs ever found out about that one.

I've only ever been on the receiving end of it on one occasion, to my knowledge: in the last campaign I was in, the party's Rogue/Fighter was a "Psychotic Neutral" half-elf girl who had a habit of palming the first shiny thing she found on a corpse. She also collected various bones, bodily fluids, and other anatomical curiosities from said corpses. It was just part of how the character worked. My character's Spot check was much higher than her Sleight of Hand, so he almost always saw her do it--and really didn't care. She was a little crazy (okay, a lot crazy), and shiny things made her happy, so she was welcome to 'em. When it came time to buy stuff, if my character didn't have enough cash for something he wanted, she was happy to loan him some, so it really didn't matter anyway. We had bigger things to worry about. Like the fact that we were caught in the middle of the Blood War, for instance...

Haikiah
2007-06-29, 01:25 AM
I only steal from the party if bored, or if overruled when splitting up loot.

The rest of the loot comes from the banks I rob, or the profits from the tavern we own... I burnt down all the competition, and blamed it all on "Fire demons", then sold things that were supposedly to protect against them for extortionate prices.

Good times :)

LotharBot
2007-06-29, 01:26 AM
In the right group, it's cool, to a certain degree.

In the wrong group, it's not cool.

Know what type of group you're in.

Green Bean
2007-06-29, 01:43 AM
In the right group, it's cool, to a certain degree.

In the wrong group, it's not cool.

Know what type of group you're in.

Exactly. Everyone's group is different, and some people will be more agreeable about it than others. I am lucky enough to play with a group that doesn't mind as long as it's within reason. Heck, sometimes they turn into interesting parts of the plot.

For instance, in one of my games, the rogue (Chaotic Good-ish) would always take about 5% off the top of any major hoard of treasure we found. Everyone knew OOC, but no one had a particular problem with it. I guess we sort of looked at it as a tax. But anyways, about five sessions in, my cleric is called upon to do a secret mission. Basically, I had to steal an artifact from an evil temple. Not wanting to involve the rest of the party (the artifact I was stealing would have raised too many questions about my motivations; I had previously told them that I had cut my ties to my old order when I hadn't), I instead approached the rogue, revealing that I had known about the 5% off the top from the beginning (thanks to all of my characters having a love affair with the Able Learner feat), and would continue to keep quiet about it if he helped me, and never said a word about it.

But I did recognize that if the rogue had been stealing more, or my group wasn't one to just ignore it, this would have lead to a lot of problems

Saph
2007-06-29, 03:20 AM
I think if the rogue uses his 'skills' against the wizard and the fighter, ie stealing their stuff, he can expect that when the wizard and the fighter find out about it they'll use their 'skills' against the rogue, ie disabling, beating, and robbing him if not worse. ;)

I'd say that if you're doing it, be very sure that the other players don't have an OOC problem with it. Many people play D&D as a team game, and get bad-tempered if they have to watch their companions as well as the monsters.

Even if they're okay with it OOC, don't be surprised if IC their response is to take everything you own and kick you out. As Diggorian said, adventures are dangerous enough. When you're in a dangerous business, you really can't afford to have companions you don't trust.

- Saph

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-06-29, 03:26 AM
You seem to be mixing up "rogue" with "thief". They're not the same. Rogues can just as easily be "dirty fighters", "thugs", "wilderness trappers", "detectives", "trapsmiths" and more just as easily as a "thief". Don't get caught in stereotypes.

Ahh reminds me of the good ol' days where the rogue class was called by its proper name and a Sneak Attack was a stab in the back! :smallwink:

Kiero
2007-06-29, 04:19 AM
Pure lame, often justified by the most pathetic and flimsy of justifications "I was just playing my character". Which of course translates to "I was just been an ********".

banjo1985
2007-06-29, 04:39 AM
Personally I don't think it's a problem, as long as its doen in the right spirit and it's alright by the players. We're playing a campaign in a D&D setting at the minute and the party sneaky bloke nicked off the mage while he was asleep, but it hasn't caused a problem as the guy plays him so well.

From a playing point of view I'm often a rogue, but I don't steal from the party, but if I find something that no-one else sees, then hey, finders keepers right?

Rad
2007-06-29, 04:46 AM
As most pointed out any form of party betrayal is something that the players need to agree before game starts. Most groups have limited time; if you need to make opposed checks after every fight and during every night uses up a lot of time and has the potential of getting very old very soon. Moreover the game is meant to be fun for everybody and stealing and/or skimming usually upsets people. It is realistic, but if it is not fun then you shouldn't do that (see "good metagaming" :smalltongue: ).
On a more IC line, if a party catches the thief (whatever his class is) not only they can hand him in to justice but the trust just had a severe hit. IMHO you would need a GOOD reason to take the character in the group again and I see that not happening most of the times.
As for the effects of ordinary justice, keep in mind that PCs have what are insane amounts of money for their world. A +3 shortsword is something that lords would treasure. If one stays in jail one week for that, what if somebody steals a hen? 10 minutes?

Curmudgeon
2007-06-29, 04:50 AM
Put in another vote for skimming a bit off the treasure before it's divvied up. Rogues tend to be more item-dependent than other classes, and that's expensive. After all, Rogues have low HP so they need both AC boosts (expensive because they can't tank up with less costly armor) and healing (wands, scrolls, potions) to be useful in melee. And with Use Magic Device they're backup casters, except all Rogue spellcasting comes from items (again, expensive). Sneak attack requires items, too: weapons enhanced to at least +3 and augment crystals (demolition, truedeath). Plus Rogues tend to get called to exercise almost every skill in the list, which is hard to do even with 8+INT skill points/level. Once again items come into play: to bolster attributes, and to add (mainly competency) bonuses for particular skills. A good Rogue needs a masterwork spyglass rather than the standard one, because 8X magnification lets the Rogue Search at 80' range -- outside the trigger range of Symbol of Death. So the MW spyglass costs 16,000 gp instead of the standard 1,000 gp for 2X magnification -- it's an essential expense. As are a magnifying glass, Goggles of Minute Seeing, magic lockpicks, a Hat of Disguise, and many other items.

A good Rogue -- one with the party's best interests in mind -- will take some extra treasure for necessary expenses. It's just the right thing to do.

Saph
2007-06-29, 04:54 AM
A good Rogue -- one with the party's best interests in mind -- will take some extra treasure for necessary expenses. It's just the right thing to do.

Uh huh. It's all in the party's best interests. Suuuuuuuure it is. :P

If it's really in the party's best interests, why aren't you telling them about it?

- Saph

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-29, 05:00 AM
Not cool.

The whole concept of an "adventuring party" is pretty hard to buy into anyway ("hi, random guy I met in a tavern, want to go off and do insanely dangerous things together for no clear reason?"). Having a situation where you *actually* can't trust the other party members just makes it completely implausible.

Essentially stealing from the other party members is a form of *bad* metagaming: you're relying on the metagame knowledge that these guys are stuck with you to allow you to get away with nicking their stuff.

factotum
2007-06-29, 05:24 AM
Stealing from teammates using your rogue skills is not ever cool. Tricking them into giving you a larger share (as Haley did in OotS #129) is cool, simply because it's so much harder to get away with it--you'd have to roleplay your SOCKS off to manage it!

JellyPooga
2007-06-29, 05:48 AM
A completely subjective question, based on the specific characters involved, the party dynamics, the situation the paty is in and a plethora or other factors.

Having said that, when I play Rogues (which is most of the time) who most closely resemble the Thief archetype (which is most of the time), I tend to steal from the party in a lightheated fashion. That is to say that I'll thief gold, gems, jewellery and objet d'art and maybe a scroll or wand. I won't be trying to nick the Barbarians magic Greataxe from the room I'm scouting, before he gets to see it, because a whackin' great big axe is kind of hard to hide on your person. The theft is more a personality quirk (like the Bararians short temper or the Elfs aloof attitude) than an attempt to do the party out of their fair share.

Kiroho
2007-06-29, 08:18 AM
With a group that's mature, is role-playing it right, and agrees beforehand, it can make for some really fun situations. I actually DM'd a game YEARS ago with one party member being a kender. I'd randomly just transfer stuff from the other characters to him. It was so ingrained in him, he didn't even realize he was doing it.

Wizardude: I pull out my wand of purify butterflies.

DM: You can't find it in your pack.

Party glaring at Kenderboy.

Kenderboy: Hmm . . .how did that get in here? I must have picked this up when you dropped it.


He never got anything horribly important, at least not when it would be catastrophic, but it made things interesting. But then again, if you're traveling with a kender, you deserve to have stuff go missing.

squidthingy
2007-06-29, 08:20 AM
In the regular table D&D, wouldn't the rogue have to like whisper his rolls to the DM otherwise the other members of the party would notice, I mean they're sitting right next to him/her

Rad
2007-06-29, 08:21 AM
The theft is more a personality quirk (like the Bararians short temper or the Elfs aloof attitude) than an attempt to do the party out of their fair share.
We had a kender in our group, and after a few heated sessions we had a phase in which that just forced everybody to max out their cross-class spot checks. After a while we (as players) decided that we were not having fun at it and she now nicks apples, rations and the like. Skimming items with a game impact is a completely different thing than an elf being aloof. You can gamble (and cheat) in the next tavern if you want to express that.

I second that, most of the time, thieves are relying on the fact that other players are not ditching them because they are playing together. This is metagaming and it is not of the kind you use to make the game fun.

To Curmudgeon: every character needs equipment and every character needs for the party. The right way of dealing with that is creating a "party fund" that can be used for items of general interest. This is obviously also going to cover the scrolls of restoration and break enchantment the cleric brings around, res costs and the like.

I'm da Rogue!
2007-06-29, 08:35 AM
I, as a rogue, usually try to get along with the party members and use my rogue abilities to help them, not against them.
However, bein in the same party doesn't mean that eveyone is your friend. I really get along with barbarians, bards and other "wanderers" but there are some people that judge a person only by his class. It's THEM who don't want to get along with me. If the other party members don't respect me, I'm not their friend and I don't care for them (except when we're in battle). When the campaign's over, bye-bye.

For example: I was in a campaign once with a fellow paladdin. We did pretty good together. He hired me to help him provided that I wouldn't steal from people who were not our enemies. He promised me 200 gp. IT WAS A DEAL. HE WAS A PALADDIN. HE DIDN'T PAY ME 'coz I searched the dead goblins' bodies and found some copper and silver pieces.
I "was disrespectful to the corpses" in his opinion. OMG. Miko's back.
I was nearly dead for his mission and he didn't pay me...
So he turned his back to leave.
Turned...his...back... to...me...:smallfurious:
Is it my fault that I sneak-attacked him?
Honestly people. I was mad at him. Tell me your opinions.

lukelightning
2007-06-29, 08:37 AM
It's only cool if it is also ok for the party to kick out or even outright kill the rogue character. Think of it like real life: would you work with someone who stole from you?

Fredderf
2007-06-29, 08:51 AM
Yeah, well first of all its pretty cliche, so I try to avoid it. Second of all, I let the rogue do it, but I make it a terrible time for him. I try to make it pretty obvios to the others, mainly because I personally think it would be pretty hard to hide 10% extra of the gold, a weapon, a wand from a wizard w/ detect magic, and more would be relatively difficlut to pull off with a bunch of guys who also raid dungeons for cash to make a living. I hate to let the players do such cliche thins though. Its fun though when a ranger with a monsterous intimidate check finds out. Suddenly the rogue has much less treasure than everybody else. :smallsmile: Hey, at least a Lawful Evil wiz. didn't catch him though.

JellyPooga
2007-06-29, 09:33 AM
Skimming items with a game impact is a completely different thing than an elf being aloof.

But you agree that skimming items with little game impact is similar?

The problem that arises from this kind of thinking is where does the "game impact" line get drawn...a couple of gold pieces or a ration or two is fine, but how about that fancy (non-magical) ring? What about that rather valuable jewelled necklace (worth 500gp)? O.k. then, what about the Wand of Darkness that the Wizard never uses? How about the Wand of Magic Missile he does use? If it's o.k. to steal the Darkness wand, why not the MM wand? After all, they're valued (monetarily) at about he same price. If it's o.k. to steal the MM wand, why not the Fighters back-up magic dagger? How about his Sword? Clearly this is over the line, but I don't think it's completely clear where the line was (was it before the jewelled necklace or was stealing the unused Wand of Darkness o.k?)

This is why I take a fairly liberal approach and it works (as long as, as Kiroho said, you play with a fairly mature group). If I happen to steal something that someone wanted to use, then it makes an opportunity for a good RP or dramatic scene ("The Wizard reaches for the scroll that is the only thing that can stop the ravening beast, only to find it missing. He can only glare at the guilty looking Rogue as the monster bears down on him.....bu bu bu bummmmmm...Tune in next week for the thrilling conclusion."). Admittedly if this sort of thing happens all the time it can get annoying, but in moderation it's what RP-ing is all about.

As for keeping it secret from the other players (whoever it was that mentioned it), that's what notes are for. In games I play, players and DM's constantly exchange notes/leave the room to conduct knowledge/actions/etc. relevant to one player only. The other option is to not meta-game...you, as a player, may know that you don't have your Potion of Cure Light Wounds, but your character is completely unaware.

valadil
2007-06-29, 09:54 AM
Depends on the group. Period. By default I'd say no, but that's only based on the games I've played in. At the very least, the rogue character has to accept that if he steals from the PCs he can't whine too much if they kill him for it.

Green Bean
2007-06-29, 10:02 AM
My advice to all would-be party robbers is to go big. Not big as in taking a lot of things, but big in terms of planning. The Rogue getting a natural 20 on a sleight of hand check and leaving the fighter penniless is boring, and will likely make him mad, along with his player. Create an elaborate plot involving bribed officials, three different disguises, Charmed animals, and a UMD'd Wand of Ventriloquism that eventually leads to the fighter giving you the money he's now convinced is cursed will still make him mad in character, but out of character the sheer magnitude of deception frequently leads to admiration. After all, movies like Ocean's Eleven are popular for a reason.

SoulCatcher78
2007-06-29, 11:07 AM
Have to chime in with another "up to the group of players". If you're playing with strangers, avoid the extra stealing or be prepared to be left high and dry at the first opportunity (at the least) or dead (at worst). If it's a group that you game with regularly and they're OK with it, no big deal. I would tend to make it difficult to do and require a lot of extra work on the part of the Rogue. Personally, I would avoid it because I wouldn't want it to come back and haunt me later..."What do you mean you're not going to pull me out of this pit trap?"

Person_Man
2007-06-29, 11:18 AM
In my group, you are absolutely barred from stealing from or working against other PC's in any way. No matter how good they are at roleplaying, players get very attached to their PC's. If you act against them for any reason, they tend to take it personally. If you're roleplaying a character that would likely steal/cheat/lie/betray his party members, then you need to re-work your character concept. Even Chaotic Evil homicidal kleptomaniacs can have close friends and/or family members and/or categories of people that they never take from, hurt, or betray. Those people are your party members.

I've also found that enforcing this rule is a good way to encourage strong roleplaying. If the Rogue disagrees with what the Paladin wants to do, they need to sit down and talk it out until they come to an arrangement they can both live with. They can't just strike out on their own. At first, it tends to limit some options (the Paladin can't just announce his presence to his enemies and challenge them, the Rogue can't just steal from people). But if you have mature players, it leads to more complex motivations and roleplaying down the line, and it leads to cooperative party making (maybe the next game the Paladin will play a Blackguard so that the Rogue can be Evil, or the Rogue will stop pick pocketing and focus on different Skills).

lukelightning
2007-06-29, 12:48 PM
A good Rogue needs a masterwork spyglass rather than the standard one, because 8X magnification lets the Rogue Search at 80' range

Spyglasses don't let you search remote areas. You can only search the spaces adjacent to yourself.

Dausuul
2007-06-29, 02:03 PM
For me, it depends a lot on character.

I agree with the sentiment that it makes no sense to keep adventuring with somebody you don't trust. On the other hand, trust means different things in different situations. I know a guy in real life whom I would never trust to pay back a loan, but I'd trust him to have my back in a fight. (If I were the type of guy to get in fights.) Loyal, brave, but not real good at managing his money.

Likewise, I can easily imagine a rogue who's got sticky fingers and a habit of helping himself to a little more than his share, but who's dependable in a fight and makes an excellent scout. Hey, if he didn't enjoy stealing things, he wouldn't be so good at it, now would he? I wouldn't trust that guy with my coin pouch, but I'd trust him to fight alongside me when the monsters come down on us.

Of course, in D&D, you're heavily dependent on your equipment, and you need cash to keep your equipment up to par. So a rogue who takes too big a share is seriously hurting his teammates, and that I'm not about to stand for.

Moreover, most of the "steal-from-the-party" rogues I've encountered have been eminently untrustworthy or unreliable in all respects, not just party finance.

Thrawn183
2007-06-29, 02:52 PM
I have never experienced a rogue that takes 5% "off the top," I've only played with rogues that went for about 70%. Now when I spend all my time creating a character and try and develop it into something, and suddenly I have to worry about whether or not I can survive random encounters because I'm so undergolded thanks to the rogue; it really pisses me off.

So, yeah, I could hypothetically see a group in which I might be ok with it if it didn't happen to often and it didn't have a large impact on my character. In reality though, if I ever had a hand in creating party dynamics ahead of time, that's one of the first things I'd put my foot down against. If not the very first. (Only intraparty violence might come before it, and I'm not sure there is very much difference between the two)

I've just gotten burned too many times. No way, no how, do I reasonably see myself being cool with it.

Thanatos 51-50
2007-06-29, 03:19 PM
This is how I see it:

I took out the skeleton, by myself, after a bad-ass tumble check by thawcking him with the butt of my crossbow, saving the wizard - who I dislike soley on the grounds that hes an arcane caster - and did ALL the damage to kill him BY MYSELF.

Meanwhile, you guys are taking care of the only two skeletons left in the room, and Mr. Sneaky Me without a canon blunt weapon will go pilfer the bodies in advance.
Its not MY fault I'm bad at remembering exactly how much Gold I picked up. Seriously, had I remembered that extra ten percent, I'd split it evenly with you.

Also, hello! I open the doors. I deal with the Traps. I'm the party's tactical genius. I'm the guy who has the neat piece of equipment that helps everybody out. I get you, my companions cheaper rates in town. I run the protection rackets.

And you, Dwaven Celric with a CHA score of 2: I'm your FRIEND! How many of those do you have?

What do you do?
You hit stuff.
You heal the guy who hits stuff.
You sing alot.
And you try to look all high and mighty (*grumble* stupid wizard *grumble*)

Now, if you'll pardon me, I have to plan a cunning ambush to beat the snot out of that horde of nasties down there.

(plus, the dude had a shopping list: I'll track his family, give my condolences, and deliver the goods he was shopping for: I'm the ONLY NG Rouge you've EVER met)

~~~~

The Rogue isn't stealing from the party, he is entitled to a little bit of extra loot for being the guy who does the complicated things.

And opens the doors. Don't forget that he opens the doors.

Rad
2007-06-29, 04:39 PM
But you agree that skimming items with little game impact is similar?

The problem that arises from this kind of thinking is where does the "game impact" line get drawn...a couple of gold pieces or a ration or two is fine, but how about that fancy (non-magical) ring? What about that rather valuable jewelled necklace (worth 500gp)? O.k. then, what about the Wand of Darkness that the Wizard never uses? How about the Wand of Magic Missile he does use? If it's o.k. to steal the Darkness wand, why not the MM wand? After all, they're valued (monetarily) at about he same price. If it's o.k. to steal the MM wand, why not the Fighters back-up magic dagger? How about his Sword? Clearly this is over the line, but I don't think it's completely clear where the line was (was it before the jewelled necklace or was stealing the unused Wand of Darkness o.k?)

This is why I take a fairly liberal approach and it works (as long as, as Kiroho said, you play with a fairly mature group). If I happen to steal something that someone wanted to use, then it makes an opportunity for a good RP or dramatic scene ("The Wizard reaches for the scroll that is the only thing that can stop the ravening beast, only to find it missing. He can only glare at the guilty looking Rogue as the monster bears down on him.....bu bu bu bummmmmm...Tune in next week for the thrilling conclusion."). Admittedly if this sort of thing happens all the time it can get annoying, but in moderation it's what RP-ing is all about.

As for keeping it secret from the other players (whoever it was that mentioned it), that's what notes are for. In games I play, players and DM's constantly exchange notes/leave the room to conduct knowledge/actions/etc. relevant to one player only. The other option is to not meta-game...you, as a player, may know that you don't have your Potion of Cure Light Wounds, but your character is completely unaware.

Very easy: no, nothing you mentioned is "fair game". what is fair game is when, in a completely non-combat situation you find yourself camping and cannot find your cup that just slid into the kender's backpack. And it really only works with kenders, it would make no sense for a human rogue. No wand of light, no wand of MM, no scroll of hold portal, no 3cp found on that goblin. In short, nothing that you would write on your character sheet.

skimming/stealing of any kind makes people upset and that makes it not ok for a game. IF everybody agrees on that and nobody is in the slightest disturbed by it chances are that you are having a lot of fun with your backstabby game. Go ahead, D&D is also for you, only do not force this on others that might not like it.

BTW, there are hundreds of concepts that naturally include your not-too-reliable rogue doing all of that and more; they are present in the fiction, books and in our imaginary. You can just play something else most of the time though; in my opinion you shouldn't force your character concept on the other players.

Driderman
2007-06-29, 04:39 PM
Indeed, it all depends on the group you're playing with and how you do it. Ripping off your partymates of their fair share just because you can is bad form, but pilfering a little extra because you're a thief (not a rogue necessarily) and it fits your persona can be acceptable.
I've done it several times, an easy way to do it right is simply to state that you put a litte extra aside for yourself. You don't need to actually take anything, just let the group know your character did some extra looting while they weren't looting. Even though everyone gets equal shares and you didn't physically steal anything at all, the players know that you did, which means it happened, but everyone still gets the same in the end.

Of course, if not done sensible it can wreak havoc on a game...
I fondly remember one of my first AD&D sessions. It was in a tavern, we were 8 players, someone tried to steal the paladins 2-handed sword, it all became a big brawl and we spent maybe 6 hours fighting and arguing (in-character) in the tavern. When we finally left, only 5 or 6 characters were still alive...
Ahh, the joys of teenage roleplaying :smallbiggrin:

EagleWiz
2007-06-29, 07:50 PM
Ohh rouges arn't the only ones who can steal well. Sorcerers with maxed out bluff and identafy item do it well.
"This sword? Thats just a +1 longsword, by the way can I have it?"
Then sell the +3 flaming burst keen longsword and buy a +1 longsword with some of the extra money.
:smallwink:

Piccamo
2007-06-29, 07:58 PM
Unless you have all agreed to be jackasses, its usually not very good for the campaign. There's nothing wrong with skimming a little off the top, but stealing really great stuff is just wrong.

TheRiov
2007-06-29, 08:00 PM
ideally your groups should all have their own motivations beyond the group goal.

Sometimes those motivations can (AND SHOULD) conflict. Conflict = the whole basis of story.

Its sometimes easy to forget that. While your characters should all be working together on a common enemy they forget to interact with each other. You may want to remind the PLAYER that their character's long term goal (restore the Empire, save the world, kill the dragon, whatever) will not be accomplished if they get thrown out of the party and that their life expectancy on their own will be ... ahem.. short.

JellyPooga
2007-06-29, 08:27 PM
Very easy: no, nothing you mentioned is "fair game". what is fair game is when, in a completely non-combat situation you find yourself camping and cannot find your cup that just slid into the kender's backpack. And it really only works with kenders, it would make no sense for a human rogue. No wand of light, no wand of MM, no scroll of hold portal, no 3cp found on that goblin. In short, nothing that you would write on your character sheet.

Wow, really? Not even the couple of Gold? That does honestly surprise me. I don't mean to imply that you're wrong or anything (after all, everyone plays their way and no way is 'wrong'), but you really mean it when you say that you would get upset if the Rogue nicked 3cp? I suppose it makes it an easy 'rule'..."Don't nick anything because otherwise where's the line drawn" style of thing, but...well, I don't really know what to say. I suppose, to me (and only me, I speak for no-one else), that just seems a bit petty and lacking in perspective. In a game where everyone's carrying around thousands of gold and tons of magic items, you miss a couple of copper or the 'never-used scroll' on principle.
Like I say, I'm not trying to insult or anything, I'm just trying to get my head round it. To me, those couple of copper and the 'never-used-scroll' are perfect targets for this sort of theft...they won't be missed except in the most bizarre of situations (which often lead to the "bu bu bu bummmm" moments I mentioned, for some reason) that only come up once in a blue moon; hence why I say that that it's a good thing when they do come up (it's always good to shake things up a little every now and then...makes it exciting:smallwink: )


You can just play something else most of the time though; in my opinion you shouldn't force your character concept on the other players.

Now that's a sentiment I disagree with...that's like saying that the Paladin shouldn't have a "Holier than Thou" attitude because my character hates organised religion with a passion, so unless the Paladin wants inter-PC fighting, he shouldn't have that attitude...In fact He should change his character so that it fits in with mine. It can't work one way.

Half the point of having a party of 'adventurers' is that very often they disagree...they all come from different walks of life and have different skills. Imposing those upon the other characters is what the stereotypical 'adventure' is all about...mixing it up and seeing what comes out. In my experience, if you don't get at least a couple of conflicts of interest then the party dynamic gets old very quickly because everyone agrees on everything.

Anyways, as I say (and many others have too), there is no 'right' way, just different ones. Yours, Rad, is just a little more diplomatic than mine.

DSCrankshaw
2007-06-29, 08:47 PM
Well, the rogue I'm playing now is Chaotic Good, and not actually a thief. He learned all the thiefly tricks while infiltrating the thieves' guild. While he's not lawful, he never steals from honest, hard working folks. Stealing from a corrupt merchant or an evil cult... that's another matter.

However, I have played a rogue who stole all the time. He didn't so much steal from other players as "forget" exactly how much loot he found. However, this was early on in the game, and as it progressed, he stole less and less from the other PCs. Anyway, as it was a low magic, practically non-existent magic items game, there wasn't as much need for the money, so none of the players were really bothered by it.

Curmudgeon
2007-06-30, 04:35 AM
Spyglasses don't let you search remote areas. You can only search the spaces adjacent to yourself. How did you arrive at that erroneous idea? Adjacent means in squares immediately adjoining without intervening space (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/adjacent), and that's clearly incorrect.
Search (Int)

Check: You generally must be within 10 feet of the object or surface to be searched.
Objects viewed through a spyglass are magnified to twice their size. Note the word generally in the skill description. The spyglass multiplies the objects viewed through it, or effectively divides the distance to those objects by the same magnification factor. A better spyglass with higher magnification reduces the distance that much more. If you're effectively within 10', you can Search.

I'm da Rogue!
2007-06-30, 10:34 AM
This is how I see it:

I took out the skeleton, by myself, after a bad-ass tumble check by thawcking him with the butt of my crossbow, saving the wizard - who I dislike soley on the grounds that hes an arcane caster - and did ALL the damage to kill him BY MYSELF.

Meanwhile, you guys are taking care of the only two skeletons left in the room, and Mr. Sneaky Me without a canon blunt weapon will go pilfer the bodies in advance.
Its not MY fault I'm bad at remembering exactly how much Gold I picked up. Seriously, had I remembered that extra ten percent, I'd split it evenly with you.

Also, hello! I open the doors. I deal with the Traps. I'm the party's tactical genius. I'm the guy who has the neat piece of equipment that helps everybody out. I get you, my companions cheaper rates in town. I run the protection rackets.

And you, Dwaven Celric with a CHA score of 2: I'm your FRIEND! How many of those do you have?

What do you do?
You hit stuff.
You heal the guy who hits stuff.
You sing alot.
And you try to look all high and mighty (*grumble* stupid wizard *grumble*)

Now, if you'll pardon me, I have to plan a cunning ambush to beat the snot out of that horde of nasties down there.

(plus, the dude had a shopping list: I'll track his family, give my condolences, and deliver the goods he was shopping for: I'm the ONLY NG Rouge you've EVER met)

~~~~

The Rogue isn't stealing from the party, he is entitled to a little bit of extra loot for being the guy who does the complicated things.

And opens the doors. Don't forget that he opens the doors.

I TOTALLY agree

Tack122
2007-06-30, 11:04 AM
I think it should be allowed, but the GM should take precautions to make sure that the other players don't act on knowledge the characters shouldn't have.

The times I have tried this, the other people at the table ended up finding out with the help of metagaming. :smallmad:

Flakey
2007-06-30, 11:52 AM
Skiming a little off the top is fine with the right party, but as long as its not items of any type. My thief (scout to the parties knowledge) would ooc counter act that fact though by acting as a party bank, lending money out to the party he never expected to be repayed with.

fortebraccio
2007-06-30, 06:13 PM
I'm playing a LN Fighter/Rogue and he is actually the party accountant. The character is a paradigm of honesty (he stole some jewelry from a npc antagonist once, and after a couple of days returned it to its "legitimate" owner), and I love playing him that way. As a player, I would never bring a disruptive character to the table, period. It's simply not my cup of tea.

Anxe
2007-06-30, 06:36 PM
The whole stealing and inparty conflict stuff really depends on the group that you play with. I'm all for it, but some other people aren't. Judging from what you're doing, your group is okay with it. And always try to catch the theif. Never let him open a chest or appraise the goods, ever. He'll always lie. Dirty Rascal.

Tallis
2007-06-30, 08:17 PM
I only played rogue once (3.0 rules), it was the "Thief" type, and I did steal from the party.
The way we handled it was nice and easy.
We let him keep track of the loot found and who took which items at the first stage of loot division. I would do an appraise check, and he would pass me the amounts in secret. When it came time to sell the unwanted loot, the DM called for a random spot check from everyone (he did these often), and compared to a hide or pick pocket roll that I made before the session started.
After selling everything, he passed each player what their share was on a scrap of paper. If anybody made a succesful check, the loot was divided evenly. If nobody did, I had an extra 10% total.

Edit: It was known that my character had high skill points in pick pocket and that I did routine attempts while in town (DM secret responses on success). We both passed my extra gold off as the proceeds from my pick pocket attempts.
I think this is the wrong way to handle it if you do allow it. The DM should not go out of his way to aid the PC stealing from other PCs. If they made their spot checks they should have caught him, not just gotten to keep the 10% he would have stoeln. It gives the thief an unfair advantage.

Tallis
2007-06-30, 08:20 PM
I was in a campaign once with a fellow paladdin. We did pretty good together. He hired me to help him provided that I wouldn't steal from people who were not our enemies. He promised me 200 gp. IT WAS A DEAL. HE WAS A PALADDIN. HE DIDN'T PAY ME 'coz I searched the dead goblins' bodies and found some copper and silver pieces.
I "was disrespectful to the corpses" in his opinion. OMG. Miko's back.
I was nearly dead for his mission and he didn't pay me...
So he turned his back to leave.
Turned...his...back... to...me...:smallfurious:
Is it my fault that I sneak-attacked him?
Honestly people. I was mad at him. Tell me your opinions.

I'd say your actions were reasonable. The paladin used you, putting your life in danger, then broke his agreement with you. Even if you hadn't attacked him I'd say he willingly broke his code of conduct. Should've gotten a warning from his god.

To the OP. It really depends on the group you play with. If they're okay with you playing that way, then fine. I still recommend not overdoing it. Play a character smart enough to know that weakening the party by stealing them blind hurts his chances of survival and increases the chances that he'll get caught. Expect in-character consequences if you get caught though. If you're not sure (or you know you group wouldn't be cool with it OOC if theycaught you) then don't do it.
Usually I won't do that, but I did play one character who brokered deals for himself and his partner. Sometimes he lied about how much they were getting payed and kept a little extra for himself. The other player knew and was okay with me playing that character. We didn't play long enough for me to get caught IC, so I don't know what would have happened, but I whatever it was I would not have held it against the other player.

Matthew
2007-07-01, 02:41 PM
All a matter of degree and Player Character composition. Definitely not a Class restricted passtime either. I have even promoted some theft within a party via an NPC Henchman/Hireling, who felt that Player Character X deserved a better cut of the loot (since he had taken the brunt of the risk). Sometimes it can be fun, sometimes it can be a point of not insignificant contention.

Dausuul
2007-07-01, 07:16 PM
I think it should be allowed, but the GM should take precautions to make sure that the other players don't act on knowledge the characters shouldn't have.

The times I have tried this, the other people at the table ended up finding out with the help of metagaming. :smallmad:

The "metagaming response" is always tricky to handle as a DM. When the other players know, out of character, that you're screwing over their PCs in character, it's only to be expected that they will nitpick every possible point in the rules that might result in you being found out.

As a DM, I would rule that PCs couldn't act on knowledge their characters didn't have--they can't "just happen" to wander into a certain dark alley for no reason at the moment you're fencing your ill-gotten gains. On the other hand, if you're doing more than just skimming a bit off the top, I will be very sympathetic to any rules-based arguments from the other players on why they should (without acting on OOC knowledge) be able to find out what you're doing. The laws of reality will remain unchanged, but you will be facing a hanging judge and a lynch-mob jury. You can try to buck that, but don't count on succeeding for long. I have little patience for players who spoil everyone else's fun in the name of "playing in character."

0oo0
2007-07-01, 09:47 PM
It really comes down to the group you play with. In my normal group, stealing from other PCs is not allowed. It just makes life a lot easier and keeps the game running. I'm sure given the right characters and good RPing we would have lots of fun with a greedy rogue, but for the most part, getting our group through an adventure is hard enough without direct conflict between PCs :smallcool:

The exception to this came when we ran a one shot evil adventure. Our PCs had little connection, and were working together for pure profit (and as a one shot, party cohesion was not a focus). As such, no one bothered to share loot, unless everyone was watching. I even managed to grab my companion's +2 swords when he died. The DM was happy to let me, he just made life a little awkward latter when it became obvious I had stolen them (and by then sold one). It was a great RPing time, in which I convinced our barbarians that I had taken the swords as part of the funeral rights for the character, and had sent one of them back to his grieving family. This was a fun adventure, and party disloyalty was great fun (I ended up being killed, brought back to life, and then sent to the Abyss, because of my backstabbing)

horseboy
2007-07-01, 11:04 PM
Well, with the whole wealth by level guide line thing, why do you need to steal from the party? By like level 5 (or so) you can buy a small town. Had one character with 30,000 gold sitting in their sock drawer. Why go through that much drama for 33,000 gold?

Of course, with that said, my illusionists two highest skills are trickery and trade. (Sleight of Hand and well, never found a haggling skill in d20)

Sure I could use it to palm something from my group. However, it violates the first rule of theft: "Never steal from someone who knows where you live." When I use the my skills to hustle some 3 card montey for beer money, that's clearly my money. If I can get us an extra 5% when we sell off all the gear from the dead guys. I charge them a buddy rate of 2% for brokerage fees, heck, that's a deal. Everybody just made an extra 3%.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-07-01, 11:22 PM
As a rule, I'd say no. Your party is your partners-in-crime and probably the only people willing to risk their necks to save yours. Would you risk that for a few hundred gold?

One idea I did like (cribbed from Hackmaster) was the party contract. The part about theft: "Anyone caught stealing from a fellow party member will have their hand chopped off." A good rule of thumb for any party, IMO.

Personally, what I would do is try to set up outside jobs and get the party involved in them, offering even shares if they help out.

Overlard
2007-07-02, 05:42 AM
I'm currently playing a beguiler that the rest of the party is convinced is stealing from the group, for two reasons:

1) He always seems to have more money than everyone else.
2) The party ranger once woke up to find him with his hands in her belt pouch.

In fact, he has never stolen anything from the party. What they don't know is that he's a master of background manipulation. He makes bets with rich merchants and makes sure the outcome is in his favour. He cons their employers so they end up paying him twice. Criminals are happy to bribe him to look the other way when he informs them he's a bounty hunter and will take them in for the reward. He earns his extra money while the fighter drinks in the tavern and the wizard scribbles in his little books.

As for being caught "stealing", the beguiler had discovered that one of the magic items the ranger was carrying (a glowing red gem) was cursed. Should the curse be activated, the ranger would suffer con & wis damage every day and not be able to get rid of the item without a wish spell. And the thing that triggered the curse was discovering that it was cursed while it was on your person. So I couldn't tell the ranger that her new gem was cursed, and she was quite taken with it and took it as part of her loot. My only option was to take the gem without her knowledge and make sure she wouldn't find it again. All I needed to succeed was not roll a 1 on my move silently check, and for her not to roll a 20. Guess what we rolled. :smallfrown:

The way I see it, actually stealing stuff that the party members are carrying is fairly crappy. It will piss off other players, and make them less likely to help you (as if their stuff goes missing regularly, the party thief is going to be the first suspect). Taking an extra share before the party knows what you'e found is more acceptable.

Out-of-character, the other players have to decide whether or not your services are worth the money they're losing. If you're saving the party on regular occasions or making sure they have an income greater than they were expecting, maybe the extra gold you're taking seems good value...

Curmudgeon
2007-07-02, 07:11 PM
Of course, with that said, my illusionists two highest skills are trickery and trade. (Sleight of Hand and well, never found a haggling skill in d20) Haggling is a use of the Diplomacy skill, as detailed in Complete Adventurer.

Krrth
2007-07-03, 08:52 AM
IMO, it depends on how it is done. In one session, the rogue would steal small items from players, and then plant them around the camp site. Once, the ranger and the knight found their money pouches had been switched. No one got hurt, and no one actually lost anything (the rogue never actually kept or sold anything). Incidently, the rogue ended up pilfering a tomb and stealing a skull. He snuck into a church, and left it on the altar. Using a *high* bluff check, when it was found thenext day, he talked the peasants into it was the skull of a saint, and anyone evil who touched it would feel the pain of their sins. So, he held it up to prove he was honest. WHat he didn't know was my character had followed him, and coated the outside of the skull with powdered nettles....

lukelightning
2007-07-03, 09:57 AM
I'm going to make a character that likes to rape the other party members while they sleep, and defend it as being "in character" and "roleplaying." Heck, I'll make a whole race of rapists, who don't understand the concept of consent in the same way that Kender don't understand property.

Dausuul
2007-07-03, 11:15 AM
Well, with the whole wealth by level guide line thing, why do you need to steal from the party? By like level 5 (or so) you can buy a small town. Had one character with 30,000 gold sitting in their sock drawer. Why go through that much drama for 33,000 gold?

If you're a thief, why would you go to all the trouble of stealing a few piddling gold from some merchant, when you're walking around with people who have 30,000 gold in their sock drawers?

Not saying it's a good idea, but this argument actually strengthens the case for stealing from your fellow PCs.

Pokemaster
2007-07-03, 11:30 AM
I'm the party Rogue and I'm helping myself to our handy haversack the first chance I get. The rest of the PCs keep ruining my needlessly complicated evil schemes, and they wouldn't even lend me the money for a pony. :smallfrown:

horseboy
2007-07-03, 01:58 PM
If you're a thief, why would you go to all the trouble of stealing a few piddling gold from some merchant, when you're walking around with people who have 30,000 gold in their sock drawers?

Not saying it's a good idea, but this argument actually strengthens the case for stealing from your fellow PCs.

Well, for starters, you've got 30,000 also. That's more money than any humaniod can carry and still sneak around. Next Tuesday equivalent your party is going to go out and get 30,000 more. Or they can kick you out and you don't get any. The amount of money an adventuring thief comes in contact with is staggering. They have to have a better motivation. It's not like they're going to build a vault and swim around like Scrooge McDuck. They'd know better because there's a lower level, hungrier thief out there waiting for him to leave so he can steal it from him.

skeeter_dan
2007-07-03, 05:05 PM
Generally, when I play a rogue, I steal from everyone except the PCs and just not share with anyone else. In an Eberron campaign I snuck into the baggage car of a train and knicked anything of value I could find without arousing too much suspicion. It meant I had a fair amount of extra gold lying about than the others had, but I wasn't stealing from the party.

Though, admittedly, I did palm a few gems when we rolled for random treasure. The rest of the group OOC was okay with it, so it wasn't a problem.

Dausuul
2007-07-04, 11:17 AM
Well, for starters, you've got 30,000 also. That's more money than any humaniod can carry and still sneak around. Next Tuesday equivalent your party is going to go out and get 30,000 more. Or they can kick you out and you don't get any. The amount of money an adventuring thief comes in contact with is staggering. They have to have a better motivation. It's not like they're going to build a vault and swim around like Scrooge McDuck. They'd know better because there's a lower level, hungrier thief out there waiting for him to leave so he can steal it from him.

Money equals magic stuff. Magic stuff equals better thief. And obviously you plan on not being caught.

Like I said, I don't think stealing from the rest of your party on a large scale is a good idea, but the whole reason for doing it is that the rest of your party is the largest single source of loot you're ever likely to encounter, and you don't have to fight your way through a dungeon to get to them.

StickMan
2007-07-04, 11:38 AM
First stealing from your friends has nothing to Law chaos axis it is the good/evil axis. If you steal from the party then you are not on the good axis. I'm currently in a group in which are rouge is chaotic neutral, and a is the type to steal from the group. As such we have a rule that only me, the cleric and the paladin can count the gold, I don't trust the Sorcerer or Spellblade ether. If I did catch some one stealing from the group I would most likely shoot them, it would just be a flesh wound but I think the point would go accost, maybe use the ranged pin feat if I'm in a good mood.

Dausuul
2007-07-04, 11:41 AM
First stealing from your friends has nothing to Law chaos axis it is the good/evil axis. If you steal from the party then you are not on the good axis. I'm currently in a group in which are rouge is chaotic neutral, and a is the type to steal from the group. As such we have a rule that only me, the cleric and the paladin can count the gold, I don't trust the Sorcerer or Spellblade ether. If I did catch some one stealing from the group I would most likely shoot them, it would just be a flesh wound but I think the point would go accost, maybe use the ranged bin feat if I'm in a good mood.

It's only Good/Evil if you're doing significant harm with your thieving. Lifting a couple of hundred from a guy who's got ten thousand is not going to do significant harm. Likewise, if you decide one of your companions doesn't deserve his wealth, that could justify it for a Chaotic Good character.

Whether it's Law/Chaos depends on how you define that axis, but most definitions I've seen would say that thieving from your party is a Chaotic act.

bosssmiley
2007-07-05, 01:34 PM
In response to the thread topic:

Quick answer: Not cool!
Long form answer: Really not cool! You'll annoy the other players. You know, the guys who play the characters who guard your rogue while he sleeps.
With a whole world of NPCs to gank, why gank your back-up? :smallwink:

Remember: D&D is a team game. Your right to have fun by stealing ends where it = not fun for everyone else. Party-gyping players end up lonely players soon enough. :smallannoyed:

Jeggred Von
2007-07-05, 01:44 PM
As for me,

I got no problems letting the rogue of the party skim off the top , or outight steal the cream from the pile first, but I warn them OOC there will be consequences.

Many many rogues in my games have four fingers, a missing ear, scars,...etc.
When I play a game as a melee ( fighter, barbarian, etc. and he's from a far off region, and I catch the rogue doing the deed...I will take a finger (usually pinky) as payment. or Ear, and I have had a female half orc barbarian in my group take.....lower...extremities from pilferers of the party.

So yeah as long as the rogue knows that clerics smite, Barbarians wound, and fighters impale, it usually keeps them in line. If the barbarian jumps at the rogue, i let them have their "duel" and then we move on...(making sure to tel the rest of the party not to let it devolve into player vs. player.

we want a spanked rogue...not a dead one.

JackQ
2007-07-20, 06:56 PM
I've been lurking for a while and decided to post some of my experience.
As to the general question of cool or not cool....I'll say it depends on how you do it. Just stealing from the mound of loot while other PCs aren't looking is decided un-cool. It comes down to Sleight of hand vs. Spot.

Here's a cool way to steal....
Back in 2e I decided to steal from the party. Not because my PC wasn't getting enough loot but because the majority of players were accusing me of stealing and expecting it. It made it an exciting challenge. They routinely cast Detect Lie and interrogated me about stealing. To any sane person this would be an insurmountable barrier to stealing...Ah but JackQ knows how to steal.

I stole from the party by ADDING treasure to the loot. This was a high magic champaign. We were mid levels (9-13) and we'd routinely pull in one or two nice items a piece per divvy.
What I did was specifically manufacture "Items" and slipt them into the loot pile.
Items like the
a. "Wand of Illumination"...a mundane stick with screw cap (wizard-locked) and continual light [emits alteration, abjuration],
b. "The druid's staff of the woodlands" an "Artifact". My masterpiece had a series of programed magic mouths which basically lead the party druid on a long goose chase looking for major artifact. The finale left her naked near a bonfire in a cornfield...
c. "Dancing Dagger of Defense"...a normal dagger with carved dancing figures and Nystal's aura.
d. "Ring of Wizardry"...a normal ring with a large fake ruby and Nystals's
etc etc.

So we clear out the BBEG and get to our loot. It was easy to seed my items. In one case I merely declare I found some items and stick them into the pile. I put the Ring onto the BBEG finger and I leave the dagger in his boot for someone else to find. Our wizard casts Identify and lo and behold the party has some prime loot for divvy. We used a high roll divvy method but at the divvy my PC knows which items are real treasure and which are not. It cost maybe $2K gp to manufacture these mock items but I netted 10 fold that by diluting the other player's shares.
The best part......
Q: (Party Cleric casts detect lie): Did you JackQ take any magical item, gold or material of value from the party?
A: I cannot tell a lie. I did not. :smallsmile:

Of course there is the time I stole from anther PC by making him believe he was a lycanthrope but that was more fun than profit.

Siegfried262
2007-07-22, 05:11 PM
In the current D&D campaign I'm in right now, we have a rogue in the party but he's never tried to steal from party treasure or anything like that.

But if my character caught him (A Straight-laced Lawful Neutral Fighter/Kensai) I reckon it would be apropriate (At least in my eyes) to shackle the Rogue to something, flog/whip him a few times for punishment and if he's caught again, kick him out of the adventuring party :D.

But thankfully we've never had to deal with anything like that.

Quietus
2007-07-22, 05:34 PM
*Snipped*

If I had a party that consistently cast Detect Lies on me, and I hadn't done anything to deserve it, I wouldn't answer their questions.

Party : "Did you, Quietus, take anything from the party?"
Me : "Did you, numbskull, stop and think that maybe you have no reason to be accusing me of anything?"
Party : "Aha! So you DID take something!"
Me : "I never said that. What's your justification for constantly accosting me with magical probing, without any prior reason for doing so?"

And if they keep it up, they'd better hope they aren't Good-aligned and relying on that to keep any powers, because I'll be arguing to the DM that their constant attempts to violate my privacy and force me to answer questions for no apparent reason constitutes a nongood act, as they aren't showing me the same compassion that they're showing the rest of the party, since they only ever question the rogue.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-22, 05:43 PM
Honor Among Thieves: Don't steal from the guys you LIVE AND WORK with.

There's a reason the names changed from "Thief" to "Rogue and "Pick Pocket" to "Sleight of Hand". Rogues aren't about stealing, they're about having skill points and making sneak-attacks.
Stealing from the party members is an abusive and disruptive act, and thinking it's automatically "in character" because you're a rogue is just arrogant.

Of course, there is a difference between skimming a gold piece or two and pocketing a ring of protection, but in general you should keep the group dynamic and player experiences on a pedestal, and never let your personal "character" threaten it.

If you want to play a "thieving rogue" find creative ways to do it. Scam a really nice dinner off of the local tavern; "forget" you're wallet when the party is buying drinks; dine and dash. Steal petty cash, keep game balance cash separate.

Fhaolan
2007-07-22, 06:09 PM
This depends a lot on party dynamics. Is the party supposed to be your friends? If so, why are you stealing from your friends? Is this a 'klepto' situation? If they are not your friends, then sure, steal from them. But remember that if caught, the party members will treat you as you deserve. As a thief. Given that these are people who slaughter entire comunities of orcs and gnolls and the like without even blinking, do you honestly think they they would even pause before hanging you from your neck until dead?

Being a thief has always been a risk/reward analysis. You only take risks when the reward is high enough. Is it work the risk of being killed, permanently, to steal a few coppers from people you deal with every single day and depend on? Usually not.

Now, that said, I had a character who stole from the party. He wasn't the rogue, however. He was the barbarian. And since everyone always expects the rogue to be a thief, it was absurdly easy to keep the rest of the party believing that the rogue was the one stealing their stuff. We went through six or seven rogues (because the party executed each rogue when he was 'discovered) before the other two members of the party realized it was my character doing the stealing. (This was actually arranged before-hand with the rogue player. He didn't actually want to play a rogue. The DM and the other two players insisted. So, we cooked this up between us. Eventually he was allowed to play a monk, like he wanted from the beginning.)

FoxHush
2007-07-22, 06:57 PM
I played a cleric, who just coned the money from players. If they had an item i'd bluff it before they appraise and buy off the cheap. I'd also market my deeds in battle as earning my extra wages.

"you may of missed it but in that last battle alone i struck the killing blow before they were going get you, save your life there many times."

"Oh this arrow...it was ment for you...your welcome no thanks needed it what i do."

They players of the game were cool with what i did b/c what i did was always put money back into the party in the end buying a place for the night or setting up money so we could do some good. One player didn't like my style of play, mostly b/c i had just cheated him out of 50% of all the earning he made for sometime. I was hired on contract and due to my high bluff got a awesome contract. :smallbiggrin: He was the fighter, so he smacked my PC around and then said the contract is over, to witch i agreed...after dusting myself off.

2 sessions later i pulled a scene from pirates of the caribbean while he was at -5. " Do you fear death? Do you fear that dark abyss? Well then there is a price to be paid to stop it..."

And he never went was a deal break there after. :D

Thexare Blademoon
2007-07-22, 07:13 PM
If I was playing a thief rogue, I wouldn't steal directly. However, if I was the only one who bothered looking for a hidden cache of loot, and I found one, I'd pocket a bit extra for myself. If I'm a knife-in-the-back rogue who's never even touched a bow, I'll give the party Ranger the magic crossbow from that treasure room, even if he's focused on the Longbow, but I'll take that Keen Shortsword that I found. After all, if it wasn't for me, none of them would've gotten any of the treasure. Seems fair to me; I wouldn't complain about the party Fighter keeping a flaming longsword in addition to the rest of his share of the loot if he was solely responsible for acquiring it.

That said, I wouldn't even play that kind of character in all groups. Some people don't like that sort of thing, and while I don't entirely understand it, I accept and work around it.

ArmorArmadillo
2007-07-22, 09:14 PM
If I was playing a thief rogue, I wouldn't steal directly. However, if I was the only one who bothered looking for a hidden cache of loot, and I found one, I'd pocket a bit extra for myself. If I'm a knife-in-the-back rogue who's never even touched a bow, I'll give the party Ranger the magic crossbow from that treasure room, even if he's focused on the Longbow, but I'll take that Keen Shortsword that I found. After all, if it wasn't for me, none of them would've gotten any of the treasure. Seems fair to me; I wouldn't complain about the party Fighter keeping a flaming longsword in addition to the rest of his share of the loot if he was solely responsible for acquiring it.

That said, I wouldn't even play that kind of character in all groups. Some people don't like that sort of thing, and while I don't entirely understand it, I accept and work around it.

Not to mention in certain groups, even if they're "okay" with it when it happens, it slowly causes dissent and leads to "ninja looting" where everything is a race to be the one to find the treasure.

Also, the fighter didn't find the cache because he doesn't have 8+Int skills per level and ranks to throw into search. If it wasn't for him and the wizard, you'd be dead.


The problem with stealing from party members is the same problem as sleeping with party members, if it goes sour, you still have to work together.
Steal from NPCs, then you can run away.

belboz
2007-07-22, 09:18 PM
As many people in this thread have said, whether it's an OOC jerky thing to do depends a lot on the understandings among your gaming group.

But even if they're OK with it, I'd recommend treading carefully, because it's *always* an *IC* jerky thing to do. Remember, in order for the story to continue to make sense, you have to be able to maintain a good explanation for why your party doesn't ditch you in favor of someone who they find at the next tavern. If you're routinely messing them over, you'd better make sure you're *very* valuable to them in other ways.

Thexare Blademoon
2007-07-22, 09:42 PM
Also, the fighter didn't find the cache because he doesn't have 8+Int skills per level and ranks to throw into search.

You're right.

But, they wouldn't have gotten anything at all if someone hadn't been looking for it. And there's plenty of other sources of treasure that are more accessible to fighters than they are to rogues. They tend to be mobile and angry.

Put into a situation where, without the party warrior (whatever it may be), we would've had to flee from a very well-equipped enemy instead of successfully killing him, I would feel that the fighter getting a bigger cut of the loot is fair. A quest in the wilderness that would've been near-impossible for the party to even find were it not for the Ranger or Druid should net that character a bonus.

I'm not the kind of (insert nasty term here) that just looks out for himself and says anything to justify it; I would be completely fine with applying this kind of logic to any other member of the party. If your class's unique skills accomplish something the rest of the party can't, you get a bonus for it... within reason, anyway. Some restrictions have to be put on the full casters so they don't get even further out of hand, but you know what I'm getting at.

Yechezkiel
2007-07-22, 09:49 PM
Damn zombie threads! Quick, get the shotgun... we got another.

Job
2007-07-23, 12:00 AM
http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307KmEm4H9k6efFP.html

Friends don’t let friends play chaotic-stupid.

Maltrich
2007-07-23, 01:33 AM
Should the rogue steal from the party? Heck, in the group I'm DMing, everyone tries to swipe all the loot, use other people to trigger traps, feed their "friends" to olive slime... it's just their group dynamic. When your party consists of a lazy, good-for-nothing, CN Half-Elf Cleric of the Philosophy of "How Much I Rock," a CN Dwarf Fighter who talks to swords and abuses animals, and a CE Elf Fighter/Thief who knows better than to actually fight anything but has managed to convince the townsfolk he's just saved them from all being turned into plant-zombies, then little things like how much loot they actually ended up with tend to slip away.

At the moment, I think the elf's holding all their gems because everyone else has forgotten they're supposed to be fencing them.

dyslexicfaser
2007-07-23, 03:12 AM
Is it okay to steal from your group?

That depends. What would be your response if one of your close friends, someone you trusted beyond a shadow of a doubt, was found to be stealing cash out of your wallet every time you met up for drinks or whatever? And he tried to justify it with, "Well, dude, you have 5 grand in the bank, you weren't going to miss a hundred dollars!"

That's how the other members of the party would feel if they caught you. Except that instead of being a reasonably well-adjusted member of society, he'll be a social outcast barbarian with psychotic tendencies.

Not a good idea.

lukelightning
2007-07-23, 07:12 AM
I am always amazed how lightly theft is treated by D&D players. Are we all super wealthy folks who won't miss a small amount? I'm not starving, but if anyone stole anything from me I'd be totally pissed. And if it was a friend I would feel totally betrayed. And isn't betraying friendship EVIL?