Final Battleground: Kraagor's Tomb or Xykon's Tomb? [Archive]

Hopeless

2016-06-14, 10:33 AM

Definitely Xykon's tomb, wherever its located in the astral plane it would be ironic if Red Cloak shifted it there as a last minute save.
By that I mean its about to be destroyed and by shifting it, Red cloak gives them all a little breathing room what with the dwarven vampires and whatever Serini had planned.
Maybe Xykon knows what Red Cloak did and has a backup phylactery in his astral tomb so he'll reform eventually but with the last Gate now located there its become a race to get there before the Snarl emerges.
This assumes Red Cloak is killed during the event, by that I mean his last act is effectively saving the world after Xykon turns on him.
I'm thinking that will be a call back to all those buffs we just seen in the latest comic so although it doesn't prevent his death it does allow him to play the heroic sacrifice yes unlikely but I'm thinking this will inspire the OOTS to try and make things better for goblinkind and the Dark One turns out to be a child like Roy's baby brother...
Probably not.

hroþila

2016-06-14, 11:06 AM

Xykon's tomb already serves a purpose: it illustrates what Xykon is doing about his trust issues with Redcloak. And I don't think a "backup phylactery" is at all possible, or losing the original phylactery wouldn't have been so important.

Avian Overlord

2016-06-14, 11:07 AM

We're never going to Xykon's Tomb. Nothing relevant is there.

Quild

2016-06-14, 11:19 AM

Definitely Xykon's tomb, wherever its located in the astral plane it would be ironic if Red Cloak shifted it there as a last minute save.

Since Xykon's phylactery was not in Xykon's tomb, I assumed that the tomb was kind of an anti Checkhov-tomb thing. As mentionned, it serves it purposes.
That being said, Redcloak could indeed shift there (I suppose. Can he?) and maybe even not have Xykon realizing the phylactery switch. I doubt it. Or Xykon could flee here realizing his phylactery had just been destroyed (destroying the phylactery doesn't destroy the lich, right?).

But defeating Xykon and Redcloak just to have to track them again in Xykon's tomb seems kind of an endless chase to me. Not sure it would make a nice plot. Maybe, but maybe not.

I think that the world within the world may be an option. At some point, Tarquin would also been dealt with and I don't think he'll be the last fight of OOTS. He might be dealt off-panel by Haley's father&co, but I would be surprised.

Onyavar

2016-06-14, 11:19 AM

Xykon's "tomb" fortress was introduced in one panel, but it was also mentioned that He+Redcloak would then place the fake phylactery in it.

Let's rename it towards "Xykon's Folly", and agree that it will never be mentioned again, once Redcloak smashes the real phylactery.

As for "Xykon forged himself a replacement phylactery already", I don't buy that. Xykon might be resourceful enough but this isn't Harry Potter.

dancrilis

2016-06-14, 11:24 AM

Kish

2016-06-14, 12:00 PM

Rich is on record as saying that conservation of detail is overrated. Unless there's some reason for the heroes to go there that isn't "it exists, and holds nothing of importance," I agree with the other people who have said that mentioning it means only that Xykon had specific plans for his phylactery that weren't "You're not guarding it anymore, Wrong-Eye!" *yoink*

(Possibly entirely because if it had been as simple as "Xykon takes the fake phylactery away and does something with it," people would be speculating about it falling out of his pocket for the rest of the comic.)

Ruck

2016-06-14, 02:07 PM

We're never going to Xykon's Tomb. Nothing relevant is there.

Yep. As others have mentioned, it's there for us to know that Xykon doesn't trust Redcloak to care for his phylactery anymore.

It doesn't make any sense that a final confrontation would be there, either. If Xykon's phylactery was actually there, and he regenerated there, it would make sense, but even that carries some other complications-- Redcloak and/or MitD would have to ally with the Order and show them where to go. (And THAT has complications, like a certain suggestion in Start of Darkness, or the MitD not really being aware enough to show them how to get there.)

Onyavar

2016-06-14, 02:41 PM

Depends on how it plays out. Lets say that Xykon knows about Redcloak's plans and is prepared - he is the kind of guy that if he gains control of the gate might demonstrate his power by unmaking the Dark One (and mocking Redcloak as he does so - and than leave the now powerless goblin alive for added fun to wallow while Xykon goes off to do whatever).

Now in the aftermath of that we have a broken Redcloak his entire life building to nothing less than the destruction of all he held dear - and a Xykon that might be able to (insert whatever you would do here) something. for example syphon off the Snarl's power through the gate for himself after all why rule the world, or become a god when you can become something more? - and rule the world afterwards.

In this scenario Xykon might very well shift the gate to the Astral Plan to complete his own version of the ritual.

Any such plan where Xykon is the final threat the order face - after the Fiend's (who might suffer also for sicing a soul spliced elf on him), Hel etc might be at his astral fortress.

Xykon's plans are entirely obscure to us at the moment, but with his power=power speech, it becomes clear what he seeks. But he's not Nale - he has to have some idea what he wants to do with a Gate. Still, it would make him a frightening villain if he figured out Redcloaks game entirely, and is just arrogantly playing along. It does fit with his SoD gambit where he fought the angels. It doesn't fit with his obvious desinterest at other times - the Azure City siege a prominent example. But it can be argued that he was again arrogant and thought Redcloak and his army wouldn't matter, he was more interested in cool and entertaining things like editing with Teevo. Now - what did he think when he learned of Tsukiko's death after he lent her the ritual? Was his apparent acceptance of Redcloak handing him the fake phylactery also faked?

You are definitely having interesting ideas - Xykon becoming a rival for Hel, the Dark One and the Snarl is something I never thought of. But it's actually a logical next step for him after becoming an unfeeling epic lich, and after it has been revealed that actual gods and demons are active players in the game. Competing with Hel is also something that would tie the save-Durkon-quest a lot more to the overall story, because Hel stays prominently in the game! After all, a powerful undead is something that falls under her purview, she just can't contact him because he isn't a cleric.
Traveling to otherworldly planes at the end of your campaign seems a bit cliched, but this string of events seems somehow logical, once you weave it into a story. But as you say, it depends and there is still a lot of possible twists in two books remaining.

tl;dr: You convinced me to not write off Xykon's fortress as a one-shot entirely.

Takver

2016-06-14, 05:37 PM

The world within the world.

Oooooooooooh!!! That would be SO COOL!

But then why would they go there, and what will happen here at Kraagor's Tomb? Will the gate be destroyed again, and something completely unexpected happen? (Like they've been hinting that we don't really know what's going on?) Will it not be destroyed? Will they all be sucked into the planet?

Ruck

2016-06-15, 01:31 AM

Depends on how it plays out. Lets say that Xykon knows about Redcloak's plans and is prepared - he is the kind of guy that if he gains control of the gate might demonstrate his power by unmaking the Dark One (and mocking Redcloak as he does so - and than leave the now powerless goblin alive for added fun to wallow while Xykon goes off to do whatever).

Now in the aftermath of that we have a broken Redcloak his entire life building to nothing less than the destruction of all he held dear - and a Xykon that might be able to (insert whatever you would do here) something. for example syphon off the Snarl's power through the gate for himself after all why rule the world, or become a god when you can become something more? - and rule the world afterwards.

In this scenario Xykon might very well shift the gate to the Astral Plan to complete his own version of the ritual.

Any such plan where Xykon is the final threat the order face - after the Fiend's (who might suffer also for sicing a soul spliced elf on him), Hel etc might be at his astral fortress.
The Ritual doesn't give Xykon control of the Gate. It gives the Dark One control of the Gate. While Xykon is suspicious enough of Redcloak to ask Tsukiko to study the Ritual for him, the fact that he had to ask her to analyze it means he probably doesn't understand it well enough to find a way to alter it such that he gains control instead, particularly since that information may be in the Divine half of the ritual.

Xykon's plans are entirely obscure to us at the moment, but with his power=power speech, it becomes clear what he seeks. But he's not Nale - he has to have some idea what he wants to do with a Gate.
Start of Darkness spells out Xykon's plans well. His goal is to perform the Gate ritual because he believes it will enable him to control the Snarl and use it as a weapon-- or merely as the threat of one (a la the way nuclear weapons tend to work today)-- and that it is so powerful that he can effectively rule the world with it.

Now - what did he think when he learned of Tsukiko's death after he lent her the ritual? Was his apparent acceptance of Redcloak handing him the fake phylactery also faked?
The problem here is, if so, what good does it do him to not act on that information? If he springs it on Redcloak after they perform the Ritual, Redcloak can always be like, "Yeah, well, you helped me complete my mission anyway, so, thanks. Tough [bleep], the Dark One is in charge now."

If Xykon suspects Redcloak may be betraying him, it's better for him to play it covertly. But if he knows Redcloak is betraying him, then he's better off using that leverage to get the whole truth before proceeding.

dancrilis

2016-06-15, 03:36 AM

The Ritual doesn't give Xykon control of the Gate. It gives the Dark One control of the Gate. While Xykon is suspicious enough of Redcloak to ask Tsukiko to study the Ritual for him, the fact that he had to ask her to analyze it means he probably doesn't understand it well enough to find a way to alter it such that he gains control instead, particularly since that information may be in the Divine half of the ritual.
Maybe - maybe not.
Redcloaks ritual? sure - Dark One gets control.
But Xykon has Spellcraft 24 ranks and Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks minimum - and Bluff as a class skill and an impressive charisma score.
There is every possibly that he knows more than he lets on and that Tsukiko was merely a bluff - let Redcloak know that Xykon is seeking answers, where in reality he already has them is a solid bluff - it allows Redcloak the illusion of control which Redcloak needs to justify contining to work with Xykon.

Start of Darkness spells out Xykon's plans well. His goal is to perform the Gate ritual because he believes it will enable him to control the Snarl and use it as a weapon-- or merely as the threat of one (a la the way nuclear weapons tend to work today)-- and that it is so powerful that he can effectively rule the world with it.

Maybe - or maybe not.

The problem here is, if so, what good does it do him to not act on that information? If he springs it on Redcloak after they perform the Ritual, Redcloak can always be like, "Yeah, well, you helped me complete my mission anyway, so, thanks. Tough [bleep], the Dark One is in charge now."

Imagine that Xykon is running a double bluff - he needs Redcloak the divine part of the ritual, but intends to alter the Arcane to allow himself to benefit, not beyond the abilities of an Epic Sorcerer Lich in most DnD media.

Point being there are a lot of ways a lot of things in the comic can play out - some of them allow the fortress to be the logical final battleground.

Ruck

2016-06-15, 04:12 AM

Maybe - maybe not.
Redcloaks ritual? sure - Dark One gets control.
But Xykon has Spellcraft 24 ranks and Knowledge (arcana) 24 ranks minimum - and Bluff as a class skill and an impressive charisma score.
There is every possibly that he knows more than he lets on and that Tsukiko was merely a bluff - let Redcloak know that Xykon is seeking answers, where in reality he already has them is a solid bluff - it allows Redcloak the illusion of control which Redcloak needs to justify contining to work with Xykon.
Well, anything can be anything if you just imagine it, but I'm sticking with what I consider the most likely explanation based on the events we have seen.

Hell, the pause Xykon takes in "...No." in #833 tells me he doesn't have a super-secret plan in place. If he did, he would know it would be better for him to be shocked and outraged rather than hesitant to answer.

Also, a secret plan that involves sending your most loyal minion-- arguably the only one who is more loyal to you than to your #2-- on a suicide mission is really boneheaded, pun intended. It's not the move of an evil mastermind. It's the kind of move that gets notated with "?!" in a chess game.

Meta-reason: I don't consider the "everything you saw was a lie" twist to be good storytelling. The events are the events, and I assume the narrator isn't tricking us.

Maybe - or maybe not.
Again, anything can be anything if you just imagine it. Maybe Xykon knows he's in a comic strip and he thinks the Snarl will bring him into the real world and make him the star of the TV series Bones.

Maybe - or maybe not.

Imagine that Xykon is running a double bluff - he needs Redcloak the divine part of the ritual, but intends to alter the Arcane to allow himself to benefit, not beyond the abilities of an Epic Sorcerer Lich in most DnD media.
Clearly I do not assume Xykon has a double-secret plan where he has already altered the Ritual, so your explanation is irrelevant to my point.

Point being there are a lot of ways a lot of things in the comic can play out - some of them allow the fortress to be the logical final battleground.
There really aren't. At the point in the overall story we're in, we're on the path toward a conclusion.

One of the basic tenets of drama is the importance of the structure of incidents-- the necessity for each incident to arise from the previous ones. Events that happen arbitrarily or without grounding for them may create shocking moments, but they are bad for drama.

Given that we know the author has the overarching plot planned out in advance, I doubt we will get a twist that totally contradicts what we have seen in the actions characters take. I expect the conclusion to flow from the previous events.

Yendor

2016-06-15, 05:04 AM

I'm pretty certain Xykon is not going to pull out of his tailbone the ability to re-write half an epic spell, when he doesn't know the other half, and which will override the will of a god, and do all this without Redcloak noticing the switch in the weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) it will take to finish the ritual.

Right now, there is no reason for the heroes to learn the fortress exists, much less that they have a reason to go there (which they currently don't).

One more purpose for the fortress: Team Evil's sidetrip there bought the Order enough time to receive a warning. If Xykon went to the gate straight away, it would have completely changed the story.

Takver

2016-06-15, 05:29 AM

Put me down as another vote for "we'll never see the fortress again." There's a fake phylactery in there. It's irrelevant. A very poor choice for the final battle.

Also, Xykon's not really the "intricate web of deceit and manipulation" type of villain. That's Nale and Tarquin, and maybe a little bit Redcloak. Xykon's the big hammer, remember?

ti'esar

2016-06-15, 05:37 AM

Plus, apart from anything else, I have a really hard time buying Xykon keeping Redcloak around if he doesn't need him anymore.

Brumski

2016-06-15, 07:53 AM

hroþila

2016-06-15, 07:55 AM

I think this book might well end with the good guys triumphing over Durkon and the bad guys triumphing over Serini's defenses and ready to start the ritual.

Kish

2016-06-15, 10:02 AM

Sure, I can see that. If memory serves there is the current book/story arc, and one more planned after that. Assuming memory serves correctly I could see

Current arc: vampires then Kraagor's Tomb resolved
Final arc: shenanigans ---> reason to go to Xykon's house

One possibility
You're expecting Kraagor's Gate's role in the story to be oddly small and Xykon's extraplanar hideaway to be oddly large.

Gift Jeraff

2016-06-15, 10:07 AM

I'm pretty certain Xykon is not going to pull out of his tailbone the ability to re-write half an epic spell, when he doesn't know the other half, and which will override the will of a god, and do all this without Redcloak noticing the switch in the weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0416.html) it will take to finish the ritual.

The Gate-creating spell is Epic, the Gate-corrupting spell is mid-level (Redcloak was ready to perform it at like level 9 in SoD).

Though I think if Xykon knew for a fact that the ritual was a lie, he would just kill Redcloak, soul bind him, make him watch the slaughter and conquest of Gobbotopia, then go about conquering the world the old fashioned way. It's not like Xykon has any personal reason to pursue the Gates.

Keltest

2016-06-15, 10:16 AM

Put me in the camp that says the tomb has no particular importance. We might see it again around the time Redcloak and Xykon come to conflict, but only briefly while Xykon goes to investigate his fake phylactery.

Hopeless

2016-06-15, 10:43 AM

I want it to end up there so its shifted there rather than see it destroyed like the rest.

Xykon would clearly need time to reform leaving the others time to react I figure Belkar is killed in Kraagor's Tomb perhaps saving the rest of the Order?

Kish

2016-06-15, 10:55 AM

Your post seems to be based on multiple assumptions you haven't shared, which makes it confusing and near-meaningless.

mouser9169

2016-06-15, 11:02 AM

I don't see it happening. I also don't see the Empires of Blood, Sweat, and Tears falling or Azure City changing hands again in the comic strip either.

This story is now on the track to final confrontation. Belkar needs to die soon. The 'vote' to end the world is imminent. We are at the final gate.

If this gate is destroyed, that's it for this world - the gods will destroy it and create a new one. The vote is only for pre-emptive destruction. No vote will be needed if the gates are gone. Xykon and Redcloak aren't going to give up so long as the gate stands.

ChillerInstinct

2016-06-15, 12:25 PM

I don't think Xykon's getting out of Kraagor's alive. Or undead, as the case may be. Redcloak HAS to try The Plan (c) here, and narratively speaking I think the more interesting story involves him succeeding to some extent (though I'm confident something will go HORRIBLY wrong in the process-- I personally anticipate the Snarl breaking loose when the Dark One tries to gain leverage and possibly kill ALL the gods, meaning there's no literal deus ex machina to save the world), and that's only going to happen over Xykon's dead body.

Jasdoif

2016-06-15, 03:14 PM

Plus, apart from anything else, I have a really hard time buying Xykon keeping Redcloak around if he doesn't need him anymore.Redcloak's gone to lengths to ensure he's the only one who knows about Operation Fauxlactery, though. If he gets taken out of the picture (by anyone, including Xykon), everyone's going to assume Xykon's phylactery is in fact in the astral edifice...including Xykon, and if he has any reason to retreat (expectation of defeat and/or planar apocalypse) that's where he'll head because of all the defenses he has set up, and OotS will need to follow him if they intend to fulfill Roy's blood oath.

I doubt the comic's final battle is going to happen at Kraagor's Tomb, simply because there's going to be another book after this one and keeping the locale fresh that long is going to be a challenge. It's possible a final battle with Xykon could happen there, but then we're looking a new antagonist for the final book and that'd take a lot more setup than I can guess at this point.

Kish

2016-06-15, 03:28 PM

I doubt Kraagor's Tomb is leaving the story in the current volume, because 1) Greg is the main villain of this book (I believe Rich said something vaguely similar to this, though you would know the details of what he said better than anyone else), and 2) of the book pattern to date:

Book -1, Start of Darkness: Lirian's Gate is destroyed.
Book 0, On the Origins of PCs: The Order's focus is on the Dungeon of Dorukan, though they don't yet know about Gates. No Gate is destroyed.
Book 1, Dungeon Crawlin' Fools: Dorukan's Gate is destroyed.
Book 2, No Cure for the Paladin Blues: The Order gets forcibly brought to Soon's Gate. No Gate is destroyed.
Book 3, War and XPs: Soon's Gate is destroyed.
Book 4, Don't Split the Party: The Order is going after Girard's Gate, just as soon as they can deal with their other problems. No Gate is destroyed.
Book 5, Blood Runs in the Family: Girard's Gate is destroyed.
Book 6, ????: The Order will go after Kraagor's Gate--just as soon as they've stopped Greg from destroying the world. ????, but since it's an even-numbered book it probably won't include Kraagor's Gate being destroyed.

Jasdoif

2016-06-15, 03:54 PM

I doubt Kraagor's Tomb is leaving the story in the current volume, because 1) Greg is the main villain of this book (I believe Rich said something vaguely similar to this, though you would know the details of what he said better than anyone else), and 2) of the book pattern to date:About how "this 'Durkon stuff' is the main plot", yes.

However, I'm not willing to rule out the possibility that the arc is coming to Serini's Gate. Destroying the last Gate will more-or-less force the gods to destroy the world unless they want to play a very fatalistic game of "tag" with the Snarl. That gets Hel what she wants even if the vote doesn't go her way, so sending HPoH in the direction of the Gate is entirely plausible...regardless of whether the Gate is actually destroyed.

There's also quite a bit of difference between Kraagor's Tomb surviving into the next book, and Kraagor's Tomb surviving all the way to almost the end of the next book for the final battle...especially if there's the possibility of it being phone-book-sized. Assuming the noticed pattern even holds, it should be noted that confrontations with Team Evil (or at least, Redcloak casting disintegrate in the direction of a protagonist-aligned character) happened post-Krackakoom in books 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html) and 6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).

Ruck

2016-06-15, 03:58 PM

I doubt Kraagor's Tomb is leaving the story in the current volume
I would put money on #1039 being the last time we see Team Evil in this book before I would put it on the fight for Kraagor's Gate appearing in this book.

Gift Jeraff

2016-06-15, 04:22 PM

I think we'll see another Team Evil segment toward the end of the book where they find Kraagor's Gate and begin the ritual, and then that becomes the big ticking doomsday clock for Book 7.

Kish

2016-06-15, 04:27 PM

I will be surprised if Greg ever does anything significant involving the Gate or survives Book 6.

ChillerInstinct

2016-06-15, 04:33 PM

About how "this 'Durkon stuff' is the main plot", yes.

However, I'm not willing to rule out the possibility that the arc is coming to Serini's Gate. Destroying the last Gate will more-or-less force the gods to destroy the world unless they want to play a very fatalistic game of "tag" with the Snarl. That gets Hel what she wants even if the vote doesn't go her way, so sending HPoH in the direction of the Gate is entirely plausible...regardless of whether the Gate is actually destroyed.

I doubt it'll happen THIS way, but here's a hypothetical scenario:

What if Team Evil actually finds and secures the gate by the end of the HPoH arc?

It would be deliciously, if darkly, ironic if Hel's shenanigans resulted in the Dark One accomplishing The Plan(c). The Dark One teleports the Snarl to the realm of the gods, and begins his demands for accommodations for all of Goblinkind...

...and then the Snarl gets loose, killing the Dark One, Hel, and probably the rest of the gods in the process. After all, the Snarl was THEIR fault, Hel's machinations resulted in TDO getting control, and TDO pays dearly for his hubris in thinking he could control the godkilling abomination.

The world is without gods. There's no option for the world to be destroyed and rewoven to lock up the Snarl again. There's no Plan B. It's the world vs. the Snarl, with total cessation of existence being the price of failure. Gobbotopia is nearly wiped out when the Snarl bursts from the rifts on the mortal plains, giving Redcloak a crisis of conscious as both his god and many of his people are no more. The Empires of Blood, Sweat, and Tears are assailed as the Snarl begins crossing the desert. The Order, now whole after the HPoH is purged and Durkon is rezzed, sends out a rallying cry via Sendings to their friends and allies on the Western Continent and at the Godsmoot, who in turn send the message to their homelands: the world is at war.

END OF BOOK

And then the final book would detail the worldwide struggle against the Snarl, etc.

It might not play out that way, of course-- honestly it's quite a stretch, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Gate IS destroyed, one way or the other, by the end of the book.

BaronOfHell

2016-06-15, 04:34 PM

I could imagine the order going through Xykon's Fortress to destroy what they believe is the real phylactery, only to turn out it's not an entirely meaningless adventure, like when Sabine send Roy & co. after the starmetal.

I think the more interesting story involves [Red Cloak] succeeding to some extent (though I'm confident something will go HORRIBLY wrong in the process-- I personally anticipate the Snarl breaking loose when the Dark One tries to gain leverage and possibly kill ALL the gods

Me too, except I think it will perhaps only be the Dark One and not all the gods, since it's only TDO who's "playing with fire".

luagha

2016-06-15, 04:51 PM

[QUOTE=Quild;20890444]Since Xykon's phylactery was not in Xykon's tomb, I assumed that the tomb was kind of an anti Checkhov-tomb thing. As mentionned, it serves it purposes.
That being said, Redcloak could indeed shift there (I suppose. Can he?) and maybe even not have Xykon realizing the phylactery switch. I doubt it. Or Xykon could flee here realizing his phylactery had just been destroyed (destroying the phylactery doesn't destroy the lich, right?).

If Xykon's body is destroyed here at Kraagor's Gate, Redcloak has a limited time to get through Xykon's tomb to put the real phylactery where the fake version is.

Jasdoif

2016-06-15, 05:11 PM

If Xykon's body is destroyed here at Kraagor's Gate, Redcloak has a limited time to get through Xykon's tomb to put the real phylactery where the fake version is.I don't think fooling Xykon is even an option at that point. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html)

dancrilis

2016-06-17, 07:18 AM

Hell, the pause Xykon takes in "...No." in #833 tells me he doesn't have a super-secret plan in place. If he did, he would know it would be better for him to be shocked and outraged rather than hesitant to answer.
Epic bluff might allow him to bluff the way he wants to.

Also, a secret plan that involves sending your most loyal minion-- arguably the only one who is more loyal to you than to your #2-- on a suicide mission is really boneheaded, pun intended. It's not the move of an evil mastermind. It's the kind of move that gets notated with "?!" in a chess game.

The kind of move that gets a confused face in a chess game - but leads to you winning the chess game is still a good move. Xykon didn't care about Tsukiko, she was not a great loss to him - he didn't know her name.
Sacrificing her to make give Redcloak a false sense of security is a fine move if Xykon wants Redcloak to have a false sense of security.

There really aren't. At the point in the overall story we're in, we're on the path toward a conclusion.

But we don't know which conclusion - and a lot can happen in the next ~500+ page.

Given that we know the author has the overarching plot planned out in advance, I doubt we will get a twist that totally contradicts what we have seen in the actions characters take. I expect the conclusion to flow from the previous events.
This would be dependent on how it plays out - I don't think anything I have proposed would 'totally contradict' anything.

On controlling the snarls energy for personal gain - Mr. Scruffy believes that this was possible, hense why Dorukan included a self-destruct method.

Xykon abandoned Redcloak for twenty years to find the gates - and did, I am curious as to what else he might have learned in that time.

Is Xykon on the level of Mr. Scruffy when it comes to figuring things out - I would say yes - and backed with epic spellcraft and knowledge arcana might very well be fully on top of events.

I could see it playing out a lot of ways - but one of Xykon's primary benefits is that he is consistently underestimated even by those that should know better - if he puts effort into maintaining a deliberate facade, I think the signs have been provided to us.

But having said all that I think that Xykon is the Evil Mastermind outmanuvering everyone from Redcloak to Fiends to Gods etc is unlikely - but I could see it being very interesting to play it out with Xykon winning in his mind games against Redcloak leaving Redcloak a shattered shell of his former self where the heroes than need his help to track down Xykon.

Redcloak's gone to lengths to ensure he's the only one who knows about Operation Fauxlactery, though.

Well the artisan might know (might be dead but he was not soul bound), and the spirits of the wights might also know (wherever they are).

Although thinking about it, it is possible that Xykon and Redcloak are on the same page in regards to the phylactery.

Redcloaks current symbol could the the fake one and the real one might be in the fortress - thereby if Xykon is destroyed again he will reform in the fortress and the plan can continue, but the heros might spend a bit of time trying to capture the fake one from Redcloak.

I am inclined to doubt it it might make a certain amount of sense.

Elkins

2016-06-17, 11:08 AM

Me too, except I think it will perhaps only be the Dark One and not all the gods, since it's only TDO who's "playing with fire".

Oh, I don't really know about that. The other gods committed the fantasy genre's original sin: creating races of effectively-human designated enemies in order to cater to the dark xenophobic instincts that fester within the human soul. (And that's not even getting into the implicit ethnocentrism of the "pan-Oriental" and "pan-Arabian-kinda-1001-nightsish" flavor crystals they insisted upon sprinkling all over their RP playgrounds while taking turns constructing their hilariously typical pastichefest of a D&D world!) To some extent, they're stand-ins for everything that is wrong, dubious, uncomfortable or just plain embarrassing about the fantasy genre and fantasy RPGs in the D&D tradition.

If that's not precisely "playing with fire," it's certainly "sowing the wind," and in a way that makes Victor Frankenstein seem downright wise in comparison.

That said, though, I'm not convinced that they'll end up paying any dramatic price for that either. The criticism of the genre is certainly an underlying constant within this story, but I don't really know if it's ever slated to be really foregrounded in the story proper, rather than just providing a slyly pointed sort of thematic background music.

ChillerInstinct

2016-06-17, 12:33 PM

Oh, I don't really know about that. The other gods committed the fantasy genre's original sin: creating races of effectively-human designated enemies in order to cater to the dark xenophobic instincts that fester within the human soul. (And that's not even getting into the implicit ethnocentrism of the "pan-Oriental" and "pan-Arabian-kinda-1001-nightsish" flavor crystals they insisted upon sprinkling all over their RP playgrounds while taking turns constructing their hilariously typical pastichefest of a D&D world!) To some extent, they're stand-ins for everything that is wrong, dubious, uncomfortable or just plain embarrassing about the fantasy genre and fantasy RPGs in the D&D tradition.

If that's not precisely "playing with fire," it's certainly "sowing the wind," and in a way that makes Victor Frankenstein seem downright wise in comparison.

That said, though, I'm not convinced that they'll end up paying any dramatic price for that either. The criticism of the genre is certainly an underlying constant within this story, but I don't really know if it's ever slated to be really foregrounded in the story proper, rather than just providing a slyly pointed sort of thematic background music.

Also, the Snarl IS their fault. Credit where its due, they DID try to handle it to the best of their ability, but seeing as the comic is fond of characters getting killed as a direct result of their actions, it wouldn't be unfitting for them to be undone by their old mistakes. Not to mention, if Hel gets her comeuppance for her power play, then it will be hard to raise the stakes for the climax as the option of destroying/remaking the world will still be on the table. Take the gods out of the picture, and suddenly the climax of the whole comic is about preventing the utter cessation of existence for their entire universe.

It's more than likely it won't play out that way, but it'd make for an interesting take on the whole Ragnarok thing, at any rate, especially if Shojo's theory that the Snarl was more deadly to the gods than it would be to a mortal is accurate.

Kish

2016-06-17, 12:47 PM

if Hel gets her comeuppance for her power play,
There is an implicit assumption hidden behind an "if" that I doubt very much is accurate.

That is, I do not expect the current book to feature Hel being destroyed--at all--whereas you apparently do. When Durkon is resurrected, when the Order heads toward Kraagor's Gate, Hel, once again lacking a priest, will be unable to directly affect the outcome. Roy will still be in the position of having an answer to his doubts about whether it was right to oppose Heimdall's case to destroy the world: If the current world is destroyed, the souls of all living dwarves will be enslaved and, in the next world, a brutal death goddess will be the head of the Northern Pantheon.

ChillerInstinct

2016-06-17, 01:08 PM

There is an implicit assumption hidden behind an "if" that I doubt very much is accurate.

That is, I do not expect the current book to feature Hel being destroyed--at all--whereas you apparently do. When Durkon is resurrected, when the Order heads toward Kraagor's Gate, Hel, once again lacking a priest, will be unable to directly affect the outcome.

Fair enough. I'm not sure if I necessarily think Hel will be destroyed but I fully expect serious consequences in some form, and a return to the status quo where she still has a chance of getting exactly what she wants when TDO attempts to gain leverage with the Gate isn't quite what I foresee coming.

But you're right, I am making a massive assumption, and we all know what they say about assuming. I suppose I'll just have to see how this plays out in the fullness of time.

Kish

2016-06-17, 03:05 PM

What "form" other than her destruction would change the fact that she'd win if the world was destroyed? Her bet with Thor being called off, so that she could cultivate worshipers normally like all the other gods, would be a reward; she's been clear she regrets agreeing to the bet. The terms being revised to "actually you don't get any souls" would effectively be destruction.

Grey Watcher

2016-06-17, 03:36 PM

...

Was his apparent acceptance of Redcloak handing him the fake phylactery also faked?

...

Xykon's denial that he gave her the ritual tells me that there's a lot going on more going on behind those cold, dead eyes than most would think. I think he knows Redcloak is up to something. Heck, his hesitation practically screams "I know that you know that I did give her the damn thing, but I'll play your stupid game for now, if only for the benefit of Orange-Face and Turn-Off-the-Dark here." They may not like or trust each other, but they've gotten to know each other very well over the years. (The leading question coming from Redcloak is a similar admission.)

As for whether he was fooled (Redcloak prodding him into changing the subject was pretty deft), I can't tell. On the one hand, he might suspect there are phylactery-based shenanigans going on. On the other hand, he knows that if his body goes down, that's the only thing keeping him out of, as he called it, The Big Fire Below, and it's a little unlike Xykon to play coy with something he actually deems important. Of course maybe he's aware that the level gap between himself and Redcloak is closing, and he can't risk Redcloak breaking the thing because Xykon doesn't know how to make a new one... But... but... GAH! You've caught me in an endless loop of speculation! You fiend! :smalleek:

:smallwink:

Ruck

2016-06-17, 05:09 PM

Epic bluff might allow him to bluff the way he wants to.

The kind of move that gets a confused face in a chess game - but leads to you winning the chess game is still a good move. Xykon didn't care about Tsukiko, she was not a great loss to him - he didn't know her name.
Sacrificing her to make give Redcloak a false sense of security is a fine move if Xykon wants Redcloak to have a false sense of security.
So again, this amounts to "Because I can imagine a bunch of hidden motives and possibilities that have been in no way hinted at or indicated in the comic, they could happen"? I'll stick with the evidence, thanks.

dancrilis

2016-06-17, 05:45 PM

So again, this amounts to "Because I can imagine a bunch of hidden motives and possibilities that have been in no way hinted at or indicated in the comic, they could happen"? I'll stick with the evidence, thanks.

I think that Xykon has frequently been shown to be more clued in that people assume (including the forum), so hinted or indicated at are a subject for debate - we will see.
If it plays out my way (or anyway close to my way) I will be surprised but I will not be gnashing my teeth and accusing it of being illogical.

Ruck

2016-06-17, 06:05 PM

Xykon's denial that he gave her the ritual tells me that there's a lot going on more going on behind those cold, dead eyes than most would think. I think he knows Redcloak is up to something. Heck, his hesitation practically screams "I know that you know that I did give her the damn thing, but I'll play your stupid game for now, if only for the benefit of Orange-Face and Turn-Off-the-Dark here." They may not like or trust each other, but they've gotten to know each other very well over the years. (The leading question coming from Redcloak is a similar admission.)
It's one of those situations where Xykon might suspect Redcloak is up to something, but in revealing the information that would allow him to challenge Redcloak on that point, he would have to show his hand regarding the fact that he sent Tsukiko to find the divine half of the ritual.

As I said earlier, if Xykon thinks Redcloak is betraying him, he's better off playing his cards close to his chest; if he knows Redcloak is betraying him, he's better off forcing the confrontation.