New Warlock Build - help me pick invocations, there's too many good ones!

[kellyda4]

Having a really hard time deciding which Warlock invocations to pick; they are just so cool!

To give some quick background on my character he's a former court jester (bard) who got tired of being ridiculed by the King and nobles so he went and made a pact with a demon as revenge (while visiting the court wizard's library). Build wise he's 3 Bard/17 warlock (eventually), college of sattire, fiend patron, pact of blade. He's generally a pretty agile character (dex based with rapier) who runs around battle (due to his awesome bonus action ability of the college of satire) slashing baddies, casting a small number of bard utility spells/inspirations, and using his warlock spells to cast stuff (still figuring that out too!).

Any thoughts on further direction of the build in general would be helpful but the big thing i'm having a hard time deciding is what to do with these wonderful invocations!

He'll eventually get seven so here's what i'm thinking right now; oh we're starting at level 8 total so level 5 warlock, i.e. 3 invocations.

1 - Mask of Many Faces/Mastser of Myriad Forms (at level 18 character level) - I feel like this fits really really well with the general feel of the character - took the actor feat at level one (variant human); I do have some questions about how this ability is generally roleplayed when in use. If i'm constantly switching appearance, how often would people spot my appearance as a illusion? Would everyone just make a investigation check or would they have to actively thinking something is not right; what prompts them to think that, maybe a guard on duty? Also, if they succeed, the spell doesn't say they now see my true form, they just know this is an illusion; so they still still the illusion, just know it is that. How would a tavern owner react to that; freak out?

2 - devil's sight - was considering taking this for the darkness cheese that many people have mentioned. Plus as a human, my night vision is severely lacking. This gives me the ability to even one up the rest of my group which a darkvision races; i now see normally in the darkness; not just the grey silhouettes they see in darkness (is that correct how i'm interpreting this?

3 - Thirsting Blade - pretty much a prerequisite for a bladelock

4 - Agonizing blast - I feel like this will help my character be a good switch hitter for the group. It's a melee strong group (rogue, monk, and champion fighter) so i think they'll appreciate it

5 -Ascendent Step (at will levitate) - Thought this just sounded like a cool ability; i.e. float up in the air and just start blasting eldrich blast at orcs that forgot to bring their bows/handaxes.

6 - Lifedrinker - another prerequisite for the bladelock

7 - Visions of distane realms - i.e. cast arcane eye at will. Of the level 15 abilities, looks like the coolest; obviously very very late game so i'm not even thinking about it too much

I'm also considering a few other invocations that I think would be really cool:

- At will mage armor: I think it fits well with my character's concept; i'm picturing him walking around with no armor on one minute, then summoning his weapon and armor the next, very cool. From a mechanics standpoint it is essentially +1 AC in most situations, which is also nothing to sqwak at

- Detect Magic at will: not sure how cool this could be - any ideas on it's potential uses?

- One with Shadows - i.e. invisible at will while in dim light or darkness; I think this ability could be really cool for doing stealth stuff. I'm not totally sure how it would work mechanically; anyone have any ideas? The rules of stealth in 5e confuse the crap out of me, lol. Obviously a conversation with my DM might change this abilities use if he's using stealth a certain way

- At Will silent image - also sounds very cool; i've read about some great uses of silent image - fits the character's actor street urchin, criminal type concept. What do you think; does this go well with disguise self?

- At will Jump! - Ok i know what you're thinking; why, I get it. The reason I was thinking this would be cool is my character's expertise is on acrobatics and deception right now. I picture him tumbiling and jumping around battle parkour style so this kind of fit that. My only problem is that the way jumping is designed in 5e, my understanding is that it's more a function of your strength score which is only 10 with my character so tripling his subpar jumping distance isn't that amazing. Plus, the spell says it triples your "distance" not height; is that how you interpret it; any other thoughts on this? By the way, what's the point of acrobatics if your jump is determined by strength?

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Devil's Sight and Agonizing Blast. The rest are gravy.

[Madbox]

Detect magic at will was great. I used it all the time on my warlock. Not having to stop every few minutes to ritual cast it is useful. Agonizing Blast is a given. Do Barbarian damage from 60ft away? Yes, please! My warlock was childish, so I used Mask to taunt people all the time. Combine with minor illusion or prestidigitation to alter your voice for a truly impressive disguise.

Also, what spells are you taking, bard and warlock? Hunger of Hadar is great to soften up targets for others, and mirror image can help with your durability. Shatter is great if you have a DM that lets you use out-of-the-box tactics. I've solved a few fights with collapsed floors (or ceilings ).

[JumboWheat01]

I'm fond of Beguiling Influence (if I'm remembering the name right.) Free Deception and Persuasion are great for a character with high Charisma, and if you already have them from somewhere, you could easily slot in, say, Perception, the god skill, or Stealth, or really whatever you feel like. And best of all, it's always on. I love super passive things like that.

[Corran]

You are in the right track sir. Let me start with:

1) Mask of many faces
From what I read already in the op, you have both the actor feat, and expertise on deception, and your charisma score is probably quite decent (given bard/warlock). Take this invocation asap without thinking it twice. The actor feat combines really well with this invocation, as it lets you take any voice you have heard before, thus allowing you to impersonate almost everyone you know (disguise self alone does not hold up when dialogue is included). It also gives you advantage on those very important charisma checks (more on that later), and it also boosts your charisma. A solid pick, congrats! Also, very thematic for your character.

Now, let me talk a bit about how mask of many faces (ie disguise self) works. Imo, and this is also how we play this at my table, not everyone instantly rolls investigation checks (or the character using the disguise self rolls deception to be measured against passive investigation or insight). A check is only required if the NPC has a reason to doubt what he sees, or if he feels that something is not quite right. So, if your deception checks dont fail you, in case you have to roll deception ofc, then the NPC might roll an investigate to see through the illusion. And remember, you dont have to roll deception, only when the DM asks you too and/or when you think it is necessary. Generally, and ideally, you should avoid having people rolling against your save DC to see through the illusion most of the time. Think of it like that. Your roleplying is your first line of defense. Your expertised deception checks that you roll with advantage is your second line of defense. And your save DC is your last and final line of defense, against your disguise. Also take friends as one of your cantrips. You dont need chram person, when you can spam friends and you are a master of disguise, that will let you ignore, or even shift the blame (create hostility between NPCs).

As to if an NPC who actually rolls and beats your save DC, it is my understanding that he can see through your illusion and see your true form. Though I am not exactly sure if this is RAW, and the reason that I have not actually searched for it, is because we have our own rules at my table regarding this matter. The way we play it, is that we allow a few glimpses, meaning that the illusion is kinda shaky, and it will reveal certain clues or your image for a little while, so that the NPC who succeeded in beating your DC would actually have a chance to recognize it was you if he later sees you in person, but it is not certain. And if the NPC is already familiar with you, he might just flat out recognize it is you if he beats your illusion. We have no solid rules, usually an insight check is rolled, or it is up to the DM, to make it as he sees fit and to advance the plot. But generally I think that by RAW, the NPC can just see through your illusion and see your true form.

2) Devil's sight
Take this if you want to compensate for the lack of darkvision. You wont be able to get much cheese out of the devil's sight and darkness combo, in fact there is some redundancy between this combo and your college of satyre. You would be able to use this combo effectively if you could use your bonus action to hide (such as if you had cunning action). Instead, you can use your bonus action to disengage and dodge (but not hide), from your feature from the college of satyre, which is made completely redundant with darkness in play, as when darkness is up, you dont even need to disengage, because OAs require sight of the target, so OAs dont even occur when darkness is up (unless from those that are unaffected by that darkness). You could use darkness for some defensive advantage of sorts, as when you will use your concentration to cast darkness, enemies will have disadvantage on their attacks against you, but that requires a good AC to use effectively, which you dont have, and it also requires a good con save to mantain concentration, which again you probably dont have. It also gives you adavantage, but given that you dont have features that would make the most of it (such as sneak attack), it is not very important. Bottome line, you cannot get much cheese out of devil's sight and darkness, and it will mostly have situational uses for you. Pick this invocation only if having darkvision is important to you. I know it is for my characters...

3) Thirsting blade
Skip it. Seriously, dont waste an invocation on this, you can do so much better. Ignore taking the attack action. Play with the SCAG cantrips. More particularly, booming blade. This will be your main attack, spam it, and do so hard. This cantrip follows your total character level, as all cantrips do. And it works better if you can be mobile, which you can. Ftom the college of satyre, you can use your bonus action to tumble, which among other things, it means that you can use your bonus action to disengage and dash at the same time. Hit them with BB (booming blade), and retreat all while taunting them and make fun of them. If they follow you, they take additional damage. Just imagine it. Hit them with this thunder spell, creating a loud and irritating sound, and then run away nimbly shouting insults at them. It could only get more irritating if you were a gnome (I hate gnomes:smallbiggrin:). I would go as far as to grab magic initiate at a later level, for compelled duel. Nothing to do with optimisation, but I would love if this was my character, and he could mark the targets on top of what I described above (I used to play a similar in tactics character in 4e, hybrid paladin swordmage, who jumped around in battle harrashing targets and marking them and then running away from them, it was good fun).

4) EB invocations
Well, you can take those at some point, perhaps you can delay them a bit since you opt for melee fighting, but they are useful and you should indeed take them at some point. Perhaps take repelling blast first. The ability to push targets can come quite handy every now and then. And it is certainly more fun than adding just some flat damage. And when it matters, it can be pretty damn effective.

5) Levitation
Very cool, but ranged attacks against levitating targets have advantage. You might want to stay on the ground when you need to keep your distance, as it will probably be safer. And if someone closes in on you, you can always attack him with BB, and then retreat 60 feet without even provoking an OA (thanks to the ridiculousness that is the college of satyre). And they have to take extra damage even if they try to follow after you. This is your safest tactics, and not hanging in the air for all the enemy artilery to put holes in you. Skip it!

6) Lifedrinker
A good invocation, but if you focus on cantrips, as you shoud do, then it isnt really worth it. Plus you would have to take thirsting blade if I remember correctly, so again, pass. Your damage is already very good, given how often and reliably you will be able to trigger the secondary damage of BB.

7) Arcane eye at will
Aye, this one! Take it! Arcane eye is awesome! Nuff said.

Regarding the other invocations you mentoned:
- Mage armor: Nah, dont take it. You are a hit-and-run guy, with a good ranged option (EB) for back up (or for when you just run too far away from your opponents). The +1 to AC wont make a big impact. Better avoid it.

-Detect magic: Heavily depends on your campaign and on the rest of your party. If for example you are after magical artifacts and you dont have any other dedicated magic user with access to it, than detect magic at will is solid gold. If not, well, maybe let someone else take up that job.

-Silent image: First of all, I dont think it would help you with your disguises. You are pretty much set up for these. But it is a good invocation nonetheless. I myself, am always betrayed by my imagination when I have to use illusions, but if you know how and can use it effectivelly, then it is a good invocation to pick.

-Jump: Aye, I like this one. Not the most important one, but I like it. I would probably take it.



Some words about your pact
I like pact of the blade, as I like to have my characters be able to sneak weapons effortlessly anywhere. But if you have read and you agree with what I said above regarding the invocations thristing blade and lifedrinker, and regarding how you should rely on BB for your attacks, then you dont have to restrict yourself to the pact of the blade. You could still take it, I know I like it, but perhaps you would be better off with another pact.
Perhaps take the one that gives you a familiar (pact of the chain, right?). A cunning character such as yours, would probably do quite well if he had a little misschivious devil who could turn invisible and help him with his schemes. You know, a little devil on your shoulder, an ace up your sleeve, a partner in misschief, etc....
Or you could even take the tome pact, extra cantrips and ritual magic is nothing to sneeze at. And you'll need a safe place where you can keep track of and write down all of your masterplans, deceits and exploits. Maybe even use it to communicate with your fiend patron (DM's discretion).

[JeffreyGator]

Have you considered fiendish vigor? At-will false life combines well with the fiend pact ability to minimize incoming damage.

From the write-up I would definitely think about the TomeLock with the ritual casting optional invocation. He was in the library when he met his patron!

This also lets you pick up essential cleric type cantrips to help the group such as guidance and resistance. Shillelagh turns any stick into a d8 weapon based on charisma.

Especially with the options available with SCAG cantrips.

Unless you are really committed to getting the level 19 spell, I would think about extending bard to level 5 so that your inspiring words also reset on short rests.

[Easy_Lee]

If going fiend patron, I don't think you need more AC. If you picked up the false life invocation, i would only do so briefly, as fiend will net you more than enough temp HP. You should be keeping armor of agathys up at all times in combat, that said (edit: unless you have false life from your fiend pact ability). Also keep hellish rebuke ready whenever possible. That combination, particularly on a blade-pact fiend warlock, almost breaks action economy in the sheer amount of damage it can put out.

You need thirsting blade and lifedrinker to stay competitive in melee. However, blade pact warlocks have a disadvantage compared with other pacts in that their invocations merely allow them to continue doing what they already do competitively (melee), rather than adding new abilities. Ask your DM if you may combine the two, so lifedrinker comes online automatically at warlock 12. This is a fair houserule used by many.

Agonizing Blast, Devil's Sight, and either the Jump or Levitate invocations are the overall best for basic combat. But combat isn't everything, and fiend already offers superior combat abilities.

How combat-focused is your campaign?
Are the opportunities for espionage?
Do you engage in frequent dialogue?
Do you often find yourself around magical effects in need of examination?

These questions will determine the invocations you choose.

[Crgaston]

The fiend patron is lovely with the temp HP on a kill. My warlock wakes up and uses poison spray on a rat or pigeon. She doesn't know why it makes her feel so good, but it does. Agonizing blast and Repelling Blast are too much fun. Devil's sight for the superior dark vision. The jump thing is pretty awesome, actually, if your DM doesn't insist on strict interpretation of the jumping rules. Technically, you can't jump more than your movement, but I think magic should probably be an exception. And also.... up is a distance.

[kellyda4]

Awesome awesome advice; thanks everyone, especially Corran for your awesomely detailed post!

Lots of food for thought overall, I'm checking with my GM to make sure he'll allow the SCAG cantrips but those sound very interesting if possible (there's been some discussion in our group that they are overpowered so i'm not sure he'll go for it). At that point, I could take Pact of the Tome and have those amazing rituals at my disposal for more utility.

You mentioned levitating gives others advantage to hit you; i've never known that, is that a thing?

Also, does anyone have any feedback on gameplay usage of one with shadows; I'm still considering this invocation however not totally sure how it would/could/should play out.

[Corran]

You mentioned levitating gives others advantage to hit you; i've never known that, is that a thing?

I did a quick search and found nothing. I asked in the simple RAW thread (Q 425) and the answer I got is that it's not a thing. I am sure I had seen it somewhere in this forum, but apparently it was a houserule (and a logical one imo, as levitation does not allow you to maneuvre and it practically makes you a sitting duck). But yes, per RAW, no disadvantage.

[R.Shackleford]

Arcane Eye At-Will can be the greatest spell ever. Boost your perception and investigation and you can be scary good at infiltration.

The eye is invisible... It. Is. Invisible.

[Millstone85]

I can't seem to make up my mind about Armor of Shadows.

On the one hand, I feel like I might regret not turning my AC 14 into an AC 15. Plus it would fit the "telekinesis & telepathy" theme I am going for, if you imagine the protection as a semi-invisible force field.

On the other hand, my warlock has history with wild magic (the original purpose of the pact was to survive a malignant spellscar) and thus carries daggers and a crossbow from fear of magic disrupting phenomenons (and because eldritch-blasted meat tastes awful). Why would such a character ever abandon the leather? And it looks like the current campaign might in fact involve some kind of resurgence of the Spellplague.

Ascendant Step now, I will surely take it at 9th level. The spell levitate is like a blend of fly, spider climb and feather fall. Master of none, oftentimes better than master of one. And the invocation makes it at will!


The eye is invisible... It. Is. Invisible.So is an imp, a quasit or a sprite. I love Voice of the Chain Master.

[R.Shackleford]

I can't seem to make up my mind about Armor of Shadows.

On the one hand, I feel like I might regret not turning my AC 14 into an AC 15. Plus it would fit the "telekinesis & telepathy" theme I am going for, if you imagine the protection as a semi-invisible force field.

On the other hand, my warlock has history with wild magic (the original purpose of the pact was to survive a malignant spellscar) and thus carries daggers and a crossbow from fear of magic disrupting phenomenons (and because eldritch-blasted meat tastes awful). Why would such a character ever abandon the leather? And it looks like the current campaign might in fact involve some kind of resurgence of the Spellplague.

Ascendant Step now, I will surely take it at 9th level. The spell levitate is like a blend of fly, spider climb and feather fall. Master of none, oftentimes better than master of one. And the invocation makes it at will!

So is an imp, a quasit or a sprite. I love Voice of the Chain Master.

Creatures make sound, can be found easily. AE has no sound.

[Millstone85]

Creatures make sound, can be found easily. AE has no sound.While I agree that a hovering eye is likely inaudible, that's technically for a DM to decide. In any case, a full creature can do more things than just watch and it doesn't have to be recreated within 30 feet of you every hour.

What I am really saying is that I think Visions of Distant Realms would be redundant for the chainlock I am playing. It is otherwise a great invocation.

[R.Shackleford]

While I agree that a hovering eye is likely inaudible, that's technically for a DM to decide.

DM fiat can add a whole tons of things to the game, at that point we are playing Calvin ball On what a DM will add.

However, outside of any initial verbal component there is no reason to believe the eye makes any sound. That's like saying "well the invisibility spell doesn't say that it doesn't screech like a parot after you cast it".

[Millstone85]

That's like saying "well the invisibility spell doesn't say that it doesn't screech like a parot after you cast it".Not even close. The spell clearly describes the eye as a physical object, so it wouldn't be ridiculous to expect some kind of whoosh to be heard if you move it carelessly. Anyway, I only really wanted to say that I like VotCM, for reasons similar to why you like VoDR.

[R.Shackleford]

Not even close. The spell clearly describes the eye as a physical object, so it wouldn't be ridiculous to expect some kind of whoosh to be heard if you move it carelessly. Anyway, I only really wanted to say that I like VotCM, for reasons similar to why you like VoDR.

You are adding words to a spell for the expressed purpose of screwing over a player.

That is exactly what adding "invisibility screeches like a parot" does.

[Millstone85]

You are adding words to a spell for the expressed purpose of screwing over a player.Yes, that is true, but then why would a sprite "be found easily" if not for that very same purpose?

If all you meant to say is that chain familiars are comparatively easy to find, because of how awesomely stealthy arcane eye is, then I may be to blame for the growing hostility in our exchange.

Otherwise, it seems to me that the three pact boons follow a fighter/mage/thief kind of design, the latter part of which shouldn't be nerfed by making the invisible plane-wide-connection drone suck at infiltration.

In any case, I admit, I should have just defended chain familiars instead of having this knee-jerk reaction of saying sure might as well make the floating eye noisy too.

Can we talk about something else, like whether or not Armor of Shadows is a must for an AC 14 character?