Improving Martial Classes

[NerdHut]

We all know that by mid levels martial characters start to fall behind the spellcasters. I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help. I have some across-the-board ideas that I think will help, and some more selective bonuses, but I wanted to run it past other DMs to get their opinions. Generally, I want something that spellcasters can also enjoy, but benefit martials more.

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

I'm looking for more suggestions or critiques.

[Formless Entity]

We all know that by mid levels martial characters start to fall behind the spellcasters. I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help. I have some across-the-board ideas that I think will help, and some more selective bonuses, but I wanted to run it past other DMs to get their opinions. Generally, I want something that spellcasters can also enjoy, but benefit martials more.

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

I'm looking for more suggestions or critiques.

Where do you think that would leave "gish" classes and multi-classes.

EX: Paladin-Sorcerer and Duskblade

[Crake]

We all know that by mid levels martial characters start to fall behind the spellcasters. I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help. I have some across-the-board ideas that I think will help, and some more selective bonuses, but I wanted to run it past other DMs to get their opinions. Generally, I want something that spellcasters can also enjoy, but benefit martials more.

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

I'm looking for more suggestions or critiques.

All of your suggestions simply make fighters better at what they're already good at, which isn't at all what the problem is. Wizards don't win out on fighters because they can out damage them, it's because they can out do them at everything else. When it comes to damage, the answer to how much you need is "enough", and fighters and wizards alike are already capable of reaching "enough", so the real way you can boost fighters is by giving them things to do when damage is not the solution to the problem. How do you do that? Well, that's the real conundrum now, isn't it?

[Formless Entity]

All of your suggestions simply make fighters better at what they're already good at, which isn't at all what the problem is. Wizards don't win out on fighters because they can out damage them, it's because they can out do them at everything else. When it comes to damage, the answer to how much you need is "enough", and fighters and wizards alike are already capable of reaching "enough", so the real way you can boost fighters is by giving them things to do when damage is not the solution to the problem. How do you do that? Well, that's the real conundrum now, isn't it?

Did you miss the part where he said to give fighters more class skills and skill points?

[NerdHut]

It's obviously not a perfect plan yet. That's why I'm asking for input. I'm not sure what kind of out-of-combat abilities would be appropriate to give martial classes.

With respect to multiclass, by its nature, that character is already more versatile than a straight fighter might be. And a Paladin has his own stuff going on: He still has full BAB, plus smite, some spellcasting, and a lot of fluff to work with for roll playing.

[noce]

If you want to add/modify rules, keep in mind that new rules should apply to players and enemies alike.

For example, adding BaB to damage applies differently to TWF and two handed fighting. Also, there's already a feat for this, namely Power Attack.
AC is already useless starting from mid levels, if you remove the iterative penalty no one will wear armor anymore.

Couple Power Attack with BaB to damage and no iterative penalties: maybe these changes will affect the game more than you think.

The idea to give more skillpoints, on the other hand, is the right one. Martial classes should be able to do more than combat, and this is a good way to help them.
Particularly, fighters, monks, paladins, but also clerics, sorcerers and warlocks need more skill points.
(I know, you want more balance and my suggestion is to give more skillpoints to casters too...but how is a cleric supposed to take religion, history, concentration, diplomacy and spellcraft?)

[Crake]

Did you miss the part where he said to give fighters more class skills and skill points?

At mid level skills are a joke, casters can boost any skill they want to absurd levels without a single rank, and really what skills enable you to overcome challenges on their own even close to what spells can achieve. Realistically the issue is you're trying to get something mundane to be more than what it is. The only way you can bring fighters up to par with wizards is to make them not mundane, which is KINDA what tome of battle did (maneuvers that let you go invisible, fly, climb walls, float across the ground, teleport, go incorporeal), but then, to some people that's defeating the purpose of playing a "mundane".

In my opinion, tome of battle did a lot to bridge the gap between casters and fighters, the only issue is the tier 1 and 2 casters who have such bredth of power that you simply cannot compete without similar sorts of abilities, which as I said before, for many people would defeat the point, if they wanted to play a spellcasting fighter, they're already easily playble in the system we have as gishes. You can't bring fighters in line with casters without making them casters themselves, its just not possible because of the power that casters wield, I'm sorry, that's just how the system is.

[Formless Entity]

At mid level skills are a joke, casters can boost any skill they want to absurd levels without a single rank, and really what skills enable you to overcome challenges on their own even close to what spells can achieve. Realistically the issue is you're trying to get something mundane to be more than what it is. The only way you can bring fighters up to par with wizards is to make them not mundane, which is KINDA what tome of battle did (maneuvers that let you go invisible, fly, climb walls, float across the ground, teleport, go incorporeal), but then, to some people that's defeating the purpose of playing a "mundane".

In my opinion, tome of battle did a lot to bridge the gap between casters and fighters, the only issue is the tier 1 and 2 casters who have such bredth of power that you simply cannot compete without similar sorts of abilities, which as I said before, for many people would defeat the point, if they wanted to play a spellcasting fighter, they're already easily playble in the system we have as gishes. You can't bring fighters in line with casters without making them casters themselves, its just not possible because of the power that casters wield, I'm sorry, that's just how the system is.

That is a good point.

Personally I would nerf the caster's versatility by limiting the number of spells they can know total.

EDIT: But the OP wants to elevate the martial clases not nerf the casters.

[NerdHut]

I guess the situation really is that if I want non-casters to do anything in life I need to ban full-casters. Which I don't want to do in the middle of the campaign, but I may do in a future campaign.

[Formless Entity]

I guess the situation really is that if I want non-casters to do anything in life I need to ban full-casters. Which I don't want to do in the middle of the campaign, but I may do in a future campaign.

I would recommend a nerf not a ban.

[NerdHut]

I would recommend a nerf not a ban.

Not out of spite, but as a style of DMing. I fully admit to preferring martial characters over the casters. And Lower-magic campaigns can be good. It may be that in the future that's what I need to run. That said, I have two out of four players building full-casters, so I'm not going to nerf them mid-campaign without a serious dialogue with them.

Under the hypothetical ban on full-casters, Paladins and Rangers would be perfectly fine. I'd even allow a Sorcerer with the fiat that a certain number of levels must be dedicated to a non-casting class.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe the rebalancing I want isn't possible without either giving martials spell-casting (something very complicated), nerfing casters' abilities (feels cheap, I don't like the sound of it), or simply limiting the players' options (a valid choice based on the type of campaign).

[Elricaltovilla]

NerdHut, are you familiar with Tome of Battle? The classes from that book (which has a somewhat divisive reputation) do go a fairly long way towards adding versatility to traditionally martial roles. Not quite as far as spells do, but there is a lot there if you're creative and have a permissive DM.

Simple things like ignoring hardness with an attack doesn't just mean that you can cleave through a golem no problem, it means you can punch through stone to break out of jail. Short range teleports aren't just for cool battlefield maneuvering, they're for climbing walls, getting across chasms and rapidly losing pursuers.

If Tome of Battle really isn't your cup of tea, there are other options, though you'll have to essentially come up with them whole cloth.

One thought is to take those boosted skill points for martials and let them do more with skill checks. Jump doesn't just let you jump a few feet up, a successful roll for a fighter or monk means they can balance on falling leaves or motes of dust, simulating an air walk spell. A successful survival check in combat gives you temporary hit points so you can take blows that would kill an ordinary man. Let them use Intimidate or Diplomacy in combat to draw attention and force enemies to attack them (like an inverse charm person or something), or shout out a warcy that buffs allies like a bard's Inspire Courage. Bluff isn't just for feinting... you were never there in the first place. Let them use a Spot check to find an enemy weak point and overcome DR or Regeneration or deal ability score damage.

Where martial characters fall short is a lack of options for resolving non-combat encounters, and in generating combat encounter solutions that don't amount to "single target DPS." Casters have literally thousands of spells, but you really only need enough effects to counter enemy defenses on the combat front. From there, you need solutions for non-combat problems. Things like flight, environmental effects, physical barriers, disgruntled guards, obnoxious stealth rules, etc. Those are the kinds of problems that martial characters struggle to solve without turning to magic in some form or another.

There are multiple possible solutions. Tome of Battle helps, or maybe you want to give your martials access to a suite of spell like abilities, or you could slap inherent bonuses and magic effects on them as they level, or you beef up the skill system, or whatever you decide to come up with. What you need to remember though is to match the opportunity cost and versatility to that of spells. Spellcasters get their spells essentially for free. The opportunity cost in spells comes from having to choose between spells, while martial characters have to choose between feats and class features, of which there is a much more limited amount and room.

[Eldariel]

To improve the martial classes, there are two categories where I think you should do changes:
- Generic buffs to "martials" as a category, much like spell progression. Easy, logical ones would include numeric buffs to make it require less effort to keep relevant. Ones I like include:

Address any spells that infringe on warriors' territory (change BAB). At least Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation need to be revamped to not touch BAB. Bonuses are fine.
2xCon as HP for each level in any martial class.
Scaling Defense-bonus; perhaps derived off BAB.
Damage-bonuses; weapon size, increased stat bonus or whatever, perhaps derived off BAB.
Full melee attack ability as a standard action (ranged attack can be a full round or a standard action, doesn't really matter).


Those are just simple bug fixes to the system overall. Right now, warriors need to waste too much effort into having the ability to attack relevantly after level 6 'cause iterative attack system sucks, and they need to put a lot of effort into doing enough damage. Also they aren't durable enough compared to other classes due to Constitution being the lion's share of HP. All of those problems are easily addressed here and while buffed warriors will still out-AC and outdamage warriors, this at least puts the warrior classes a bit closer. And makes them less reliant on Shock Trooper and Leap Attack.

For skills:

You'd have to address the few spells that make skills casters' territory (Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, Inspiration, Glibness, etc.) to "liberate" them for mundane use. The spell bonuses need to be less ridiculous. More +1-5 than +15-30.
Then make higher difficulty skills more doable for skill classes. Flat bonuses, class-based double value ranks or whatever. Skill monkeys should be looking at what are currently epic uses for e.g. Spot or Bluff by level 6-10 - stuff like having a chance to see through Illusions or hiding surface thoughts.W
Warrior classes obviously need more skill points and better skill access by default (not as good as skill monkeys but still decent) since casters still have spells to help them out there.


Classes themselves:

Then warrior classes need to have their saves revamped. They should be the classes with the best natural saves in the system, not tied for the worst. I'd lean towards all 3 good for most warriors, using perhaps medium track (0-9) on one.
Warriors need various resistance abilities as they get levels. Currently they're kinda chumps defense-wise. Ability to shake off mental control, ability to reroll saves, some immunities depending on class, resisting death, mettle, etc. Rogues have some but those should be expanded upon too.
Warriors need to be able to defeat the standard caster defenses, be it using ranged attacks through conditions that normally prevent them or being somehow able to bust through even walls of force.
Non-caster classes need a thing in which they can actually one-up casters. Everything I've listed up until now just helps them keep a bit closer to casters. This should vary from class to class but a couple of things:

Warriors should probably get extra actions. Immediate standard/move actions and things of that nature. That makes them a real threat to be near to and able to modify the battlefield in an entirely new way. Useful both offensively and defensively and makes higher level combat much more engaging, plus makes sense; they're faster to act than others since they hone their body their whole lives.
Rogue-types could also use more actions but most importantly they need to get more out of their skills than others. Stuff like Hide in Plain Sight, Hide Presence (from magic), etc. should be baked into the classes.




So yeah, the ball was dropped at many places. If you wish to sow it together, I recommend starting with Pathfinder and then beginning by eliminating the worst problems (the first paragraph, those are just the egregious oversights where the supposed warrior strengths were just forgotten about). Then help the classes. You could do all that and then use Path of War or Tome of Battle classes, and then give them a lot of bonuses and they'd be squarely high Tier 3 outta the box. Powerful and able to threaten casters but still of course lacking in terms of power cosmic. But at least with some things the casters can't do.

[khadgar567]

To improve the martial classes, there are two categories where I think you should do changes:
- Generic buffs to "martials" as a category, much like spell progression. Easy, logical ones would include numeric buffs to make it require less effort to keep relevant. Ones I like include:

Address any spells that infringe on warriors' territory (change BAB). At least Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation need to be revamped to not touch BAB. Bonuses are fine.
2xCon as HP for each level in any martial class.
Scaling Defense-bonus; perhaps derived off BAB.
Damage-bonuses; weapon size, increased stat bonus or whatever, perhaps derived off BAB.
Full melee attack ability as a standard action (ranged attack can be a full round or a standard action, doesn't really matter).


Those are just simple bug fixes to the system overall. Right now, warriors need to waste too much effort into having the ability to attack relevantly after level 6 'cause iterative attack system sucks, and they need to put a lot of effort into doing enough damage. Also they aren't durable enough compared to other classes due to Constitution being the lion's share of HP. All of those problems are easily addressed here and while buffed warriors will still out-AC and outdamage warriors, this at least puts the warrior classes a bit closer. And makes them less reliant on Shock Trooper and Leap Attack.

For skills:

You'd have to address the few spells that make skills casters' territory (Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, Inspiration, Glibness, etc.) to "liberate" them for mundane use. The spell bonuses need to be less ridiculous. More +1-5 than +15-30.
Then make higher difficulty skills more doable for skill classes. Flat bonuses, class-based double value ranks or whatever. Skill monkeys should be looking at what are currently epic uses for e.g. Spot or Bluff by level 6-10 - stuff like having a chance to see through Illusions or hiding surface thoughts.W
Warrior classes obviously need more skill points and better skill access by default (not as good as skill monkeys but still decent) since casters still have spells to help them out there.


Classes themselves:

Then warrior classes need to have their saves revamped. They should be the classes with the best natural saves in the system, not tied for the worst. I'd lean towards all 3 good for most warriors, using perhaps medium track (0-9) on one.
Warriors need various resistance abilities as they get levels. Currently they're kinda chumps defense-wise. Ability to shake off mental control, ability to reroll saves, some immunities depending on class, resisting death, mettle, etc. Rogues have some but those should be expanded upon too.
Warriors need to be able to defeat the standard caster defenses, be it using ranged attacks through conditions that normally prevent them or being somehow able to bust through even walls of force.
Non-caster classes need a thing in which they can actually one-up casters. Everything I've listed up until now just helps them keep a bit closer to casters. This should vary from class to class but a couple of things:

Warriors should probably get extra actions. Immediate standard/move actions and things of that nature. That makes them a real threat to be near to and able to modify the battlefield in an entirely new way. Useful both offensively and defensively and makes higher level combat much more engaging, plus makes sense; they're faster to act than others since they hone their body their whole lives.
Rogue-types could also use more actions but most importantly they need to get more out of their skills than others. Stuff like Hide in Plain Sight, Hide Presence (from magic), etc. should be baked into the classes.




So yeah, the ball was dropped at many places. If you wish to sow it together, I recommend starting with Pathfinder and then beginning by eliminating the worst problems (the first paragraph, those are just the egregious oversights where the supposed warrior strengths were just forgotten about). Then help the classes. You could do all that and then use Path of War or Tome of Battle classes, and then give them a lot of bonuses and they'd be squarely high Tier 3 outta the box. Powerful and able to threaten casters but still of course lacking in terms of power cosmic. But at least with some things the casters can't do.
they don't drop the ball they just kick constantly why every caster class basicly gets same spell list oly their levels shuffled

[Jack Mann]

As a point of order, warblades, while capable of incredible feats, are completely mundane. None of the maneuvers they manifest are supernatural. They're just so tough they can shake off magical effects, so canny they can cut right past damage reduction.

If that's too much for you to picture a mundane doing, then you're never going to be able to get martials up to par with casters. Magic in D&D is capable of huge effects. You have to allow martials to do the same if you want them to be up to par.

[Troacctid]

All of your suggestions simply make fighters better at what they're already good at, which isn't at all what the problem is. Wizards don't win out on fighters because they can out damage them, it's because they can out do them at everything else.
Strongly disagree. The biggest balance problem between fighters and wizards is that wizards can do a fighter's job better than a fighter. If you cannot fix that, then they will never be balanced.

[Jack Mann]

Strongly disagree. The biggest balance problem between fighters and wizards is that wizards can do a fighter's job better than a fighter. If you cannot fix that, then they will never be balanced.

The wizard doesn't so much do the fighter's job better as he makes the fighter's job not matter. Wizards can do damage, but it's nearly always a suboptimal choice because he can bypass hit points entirely. As well, at high levels fighters only have a few builds that can effectively "keep up" with the monsters, locking fighters into one of a very few narrow options in combat.

[Red Fel]

All of your suggestions simply make fighters better at what they're already good at, which isn't at all what the problem is. Wizards don't win out on fighters because they can out damage them, it's because they can out do them at everything else. When it comes to damage, the answer to how much you need is "enough", and fighters and wizards alike are already capable of reaching "enough", so the real way you can boost fighters is by giving them things to do when damage is not the solution to the problem. How do you do that? Well, that's the real conundrum now, isn't it?

This, first and foremost.

Basically, you have a situation that - well, here:


Strongly disagree. The biggest balance problem between fighters and wizards is that wizards can do a fighter's job better than a fighter. If you cannot fix that, then they will never be balanced.

This. This is the situation. Which means that your options, without nerfing casters, are:
Come up with a way for the martial to do its job better than a caster can do a martial's job.
Come up with a way for the martial to do things beyond its job.
Those are your options. Now, admittedly, giving your martial bigger numbers, more feats, etc., is a start, but it's only a start. And any numerical augmentation a martial can get, a caster can find a way to replicate.

You could give martials more options. As mentioned, ToB approaches this angle, although it doesn't bridge the gulf. There are certain things, for instance, that any class - martial or otherwise - needs to be able to work well. Things like debuff resistance and status immunity, tactical teleportation and flight, ranged and melee options, and action economy abuse. Give martials a way to easily acquire these things.

I say easily, because many of them can be acquired, by certain templates, races, grafts, or magic items. Which means that casters can get them too. But giving martials a simple, streamlined way to get additional options - options that not only let them hit harder and endure more, but let them move quickly, shrug off dangerous and debilitating effects and conditions, and otherwise "Nope" things - goes a long way to making sure that they remain better at their job than a caster would be.

Consider the mythos classes, which can be found in the Homebrew Forums. The premise of these classes is to present otherwise non-caster classes with high saves and BAB, and explosive and diverse amounts of power. Non-casters doing things nobody can do, shrugging off injuries and roaring across the battlefield like a tornado of murder. That's what you want in a martial class.


I would recommend a nerf not a ban.

I would recommend neither. Imbalance is a part of the game; it's not a good reason for a ban. Moreover, just as a rising tide raises all ships, banning full casters hurts everybody. Most encounters are designed with some level of magic in mind. Crafting magic items is the purview of primary casters. Buffs are frequently the purview of primary casters. Battlefield control is frequently the purview of primary casters. Removing them makes things harder on everyone.

Similarly, a nerf doesn't address the problem. No nerf fully bridges the gap. Outlaw certain spells? Others are still powerful. Outlaw 9th-level spells? You can still end encounters with 3rd-level spells. All spellcasting takes a full round? The PCs protect the Wizard while he casts "Win." Fewer spells per day? More five-minute adventuring days. Spells have a chance of misfiring horribly? That's basically a soft-ban on casters anyway, since nobody will want them around. It doesn't really work, is the point.

[Troacctid]

The wizard doesn't so much do the fighter's job better as he makes the fighter's job not matter. Wizards can do damage, but it's nearly always a suboptimal choice because he can bypass hit points entirely.
Disagree again. Damage is a universal threat that will reliably end just about any encounter.

[khadgar567]

Disagree again. Damage is a universal threat that will reliably end just about any encounter.
wizard can pic his poison to annihilate any mob while fighter suck with choosen weapon

[Eldariel]

All spellcasting takes a full round? The PCs protect the Wizard while he casts "Win."

This I really like actually, and it's one I tend to run nowadays. Casting taking full round gives warriors a role and a job; they can engage enemy warriors and protect the squishies. It gives caster a "clear weakness" (that they admittedly can cover for) - their spells can be disrupted even without readied actions or if they take that 5' step away. I like to further play up this angle by giving warriors more actions. Of course Wizards can still get their spells off even when completely unprepared. The warrior at least gets one shot to take them down though.

This way warriors get a role; they're faster than casters. Casters are more powerful. Nothing can change that: by design, casters must be more powerful. Casters have fewer limits than the mundane and their shtick is making many sorts of impossible events come true. However, by slowing the casters down and speeding the warriors up, the team dynamics become more...well, dynamic and both sides benefit more of one another. Of course, again, unless you amp up the stuff warriors can do they're still nothing compared to the kinds of creatures a Wizard can keep around. So changes to the warriors are also needed. But it's a start - creation of a niche.


Further playing that up, I'd place the warriors in the fast - juggernaut spectrum; some are faster than others, some are harder to stop than others but all of them get a modicum of both. Thus the sameness is avoided but they still get pretty good at the things they're supposed to do.

[Triskavanski]

Some of the biggest ways I'd work to improving martial is by blending a lot more feats together. Two-weapon fighting is a big one. As is all the different maneuver feats. And same with the style feats.

I personally do not like the style feats as they are, where you have to take at least 3 different feats to get the 'style' and that is all those feats do.

I'd much more prefer things along the lines of Equipment tricks to become actual style feats. Like for example


Desert Rose

Free - You can move through difficult terrain due to sand or loose moving soil without penalty for another of squares equal to 1/4th of your BAB.

BAB +6 Two-weapon Fighting - You can make an attack with your main and off hand as a standard action while weilding two daggers or similar weapons.

Perform Dance 5 Ranks - While on terrain that would be difficult terrain due to sand or loose moving soil, you gain a +2 dodge bonus to your AC

Perform Dance 5 ranks, Improved Dirty Fighting - While on terrain that would be difficult terrain due to sand or loose moving soil, you gain a +2 on dirty trick attempts to blind by kicking up dust and dirt.

Perform Dance 8 Ranks, Whirlwind Attack - While performing a Whirlwind attack, you can create a cloud of dust around you, similar to fog cloud but lasts only 1 round 1/3 bab

[Jack Mann]

Disagree again. Damage is a universal threat that will reliably end just about any encounter.

I'm a wizard. I see a big nasty dire bear? Ray of stupidity will one-shot it. A dragon? Shivering Touch will make it paralyzed and helpless. Wizard type? Finger of death. Just about anything that can't teleport? Forcecage plus cloudkill. Something wants to charge you? Slow, and maybe some black tentacles. Enervation against basically anything that isn't undead.

As levels rise, the gulf between good and bad saves grows, making it easier to take enemies out by guessing their poor save. Don't want to go after saves? Use one of the plentiful spells that just hits touch AC.

Add in spells that remove the enemy's ability to take out the wizard (mirror image, fly, prismatic sphere), and the wizard has a lot more options to take out enemies at high levels than dealing damage. If it makes the first save, it's probably not going to make the second, and the wizard can make sure he lives long enough to cast into the second round, or even the third.

At lower levels, yes, damage matters more. Even then, the wizard is generally better off making it easier for everyone else to deal damage without getting hurt with spells like haste, slow, and confusion.

And at those higher levels, where a wizard has a really good chance of one-shotting an encounter with a single spell, the damage the fighter does doesn't matter all that much. At best, it becomes your backup plan if something happens to the casters.

That's why I think with wizards, it's more an issue that they can bypass HP entirely. Clerics and druids, sure, they're making the fighter not matter so much even earlier by becoming much better melee combatants. But at high levels, the wizard makes hit point damage largely irrelevant. And at that point, clerics and druids are still full casters.

[Formless Entity]

Not out of spite, but as a style of DMing. I fully admit to preferring martial characters over the casters. And Lower-magic campaigns can be good. It may be that in the future that's what I need to run. That said, I have two out of four players building full-casters, so I'm not going to nerf them mid-campaign without a serious dialogue with them.

Under the hypothetical ban on full-casters, Paladins and Rangers would be perfectly fine. I'd even allow a Sorcerer with the fiat that a certain number of levels must be dedicated to a non-casting class.

What I'm trying to say is that maybe the rebalancing I want isn't possible without either giving martials spell-casting (something very complicated), nerfing casters' abilities (feels cheap, I don't like the sound of it), or simply limiting the players' options (a valid choice based on the type of campaign).

Well here are some ideas for how to nerf them.

1) Lower the amount of spells they can learn and state that spells are a rare and precious commodity that is not shared.

2) Make them take concentration rolls to cast spells and say that in your world it is more difficult to bend magic to your will or receive it through deities.

3) Both of the above.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Casters are more powerful. Nothing can change that: by design, casters must be more powerful. Casters have fewer limits than the mundane and their shtick is making many sorts of impossible events come true.
I think this is key. Magic is always going to be more powerful than not-magic, because the way magic breaks rules. That is intentional, part of the world. I personally like it. Any mid-level warrior who is not some sort of gish is limiting themselves, like a modern soldier going on patrol without a firearm, kevlar, and radio. You can, and there are still knives and spears in the world, but's it's so bloody stupid. It's not like magic is hard to get from the mid levels onwards*, the game is explicitly build around it.

Making all spells cost at least one full round of casting is a good way to add more tactical and team elements to spellcasting. If you combine it with a soft cap on buffstacks, by limiting things like free metamagic and crafting cost reductions, you can greatly extend the range of relative parity between martials and mundanes, for all but the highest-OP casters.



*In contrast, it's fair that regular folks aren't all wizards - spellbooks are costly. But from level 6-7, you're a rich hero, and it's really worth the effort.

[Red Fel]

Well here are some ideas for how to nerf them.

1) Lower the amount of spells they can learn and state that spells are a rare and precious commodity that is not shared.

Prepared arcane casters (i.e. Wizards) can personally research their own spells, so they don't necessarily need to buy or trade spells on their own. Spontaneous arcane casters (i.e. Sorcerers) learn their spells naturally, so a no-share policy doesn't affect them at all. Divine casters (i.e. Clerics) receive their spells through prayer, so again, a no-share policy is harmless.

As for reducing spells known, that's not as big an issue (except for Sorcerers). Wizards have no cap on spells known, so reducing it from (infinity) to (infinity -20) really doesn't bother them. Clerics likewise know all the spells, although they can only prepare a certain number daily. Sorcerers are hurt by this, but again, knowing fewer spells doesn't keep them from choosing the most powerful ones.


2) Make them take concentration rolls to cast spells and say that in your world it is more difficult to bend magic to your will or receive it through deities.

I'm a caster. I don't need skills other than Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (arcana), because I have spells that can duplicate all other skills. So I'll max those three and pretty much ignore this penalty.


3) Both of the above.

See above.

The problem with nerfs is that they're basically a punishment for wanting to play a class. Moreover, they're a punishment that isn't always effective.

Either your nerfs work too well, rendering the class unplayable, or they don't work well enough, rendering it merely annoying. These suggestions fall into the latter category; a nuisance, but not something that has any impact on the balance between casters and martials.

[Formless Entity]

I think this is key. Magic is always going to be more powerful than not-magic, because the way magic breaks rules. That is intentional, part of the world. I personally like it. Any mid-level warrior who is not some sort of gish is limiting themselves, like a modern soldier going on patrol without a firearm, kevlar, and radio. You can, and there are still knives and spears in the world, but's it's so bloody stupid. It's not like magic is hard to get from the mid levels onwards*, the game is explicitly build around it.

Making all spells cost at least one full round of casting is a good way to add more tactical and team elements to spellcasting. If you combine it with a soft cap on buffstacks, by limiting things like free metamagic and crafting cost reductions, you can greatly extend the range of relative parity between martials and mundanes, for all but the highest-OP casters.



*In contrast, it's fair that regular folks aren't all wizards - spellbooks are costly. But from level 6-7, you're a rich hero, and it's really worth the effort.

Seeing as throughout most of the editions of D&D they have been trying to bridge the gap between martial classes and spellcasting classes. I doubt this is the case.

Even if it where I would prefer to make magic a more limited thing that requires lots of tactics to use correctly rather than someone who can do everything.

BTW: I do prefer gish classes over pure casters and martials but I do not like how you have to be a gish to be an effective martial character.

[Formless Entity]

Prepared arcane casters (i.e. Wizards) can personally research their own spells, so they don't necessarily need to buy or trade spells on their own. Spontaneous arcane casters (i.e. Sorcerers) learn their spells naturally, so a no-share policy doesn't affect them at all. Divine casters (i.e. Clerics) receive their spells through prayer, so again, a no-share policy is harmless.

As for reducing spells known, that's not as big an issue (except for Sorcerers). Wizards have no cap on spells known, so reducing it from (infinity) to (infinity -20) really doesn't bother them. Clerics likewise know all the spells, although they can only prepare a certain number daily. Sorcerers are hurt by this, but again, knowing fewer spells doesn't keep them from choosing the most powerful ones.



I'm a caster. I don't need skills other than Concentration, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (arcana), because I have spells that can duplicate all other skills. So I'll max those three and pretty much ignore this penalty.



See above.

The problem with nerfs is that they're basically a punishment for wanting to play a class. Moreover, they're a punishment that isn't always effective.

Either your nerfs work too well, rendering the class unplayable, or they don't work well enough, rendering it merely annoying. These suggestions fall into the latter category; a nuisance, but not something that has any impact on the balance between casters and martials.

1) I obliviously was going to change that so that Wizards and Clerics have a limited number.

2) Who said that the concentration check was going to be easy? Especially if I came up with monsters that actually knew how to take down wizards. Also if you have fewer spells know, you will not have a spell for every skill.

3) It is not a "punishment" it is a balance. Why the heck would I try to punish someone for playing a caster? I do not have a problem with people who casters? I almost only play characters that are casters and the type I play would get the hardest hit. Duskblades for example.

[Troacctid]

I'm a wizard. I see a big nasty dire bear? Ray of stupidity will one-shot it. A dragon? Shivering Touch will make it paralyzed and helpless. Wizard type? Finger of death. Just about anything that can't teleport? Forcecage plus cloudkill. Something wants to charge you? Slow, and maybe some black tentacles. Enervation against basically anything that isn't undead.

As levels rise, the gulf between good and bad saves grows, making it easier to take enemies out by guessing their poor save. Don't want to go after saves? Use one of the plentiful spells that just hits touch AC.

Add in spells that remove the enemy's ability to take out the wizard (mirror image, fly, prismatic sphere), and the wizard has a lot more options to take out enemies at high levels than dealing damage. If it makes the first save, it's probably not going to make the second, and the wizard can make sure he lives long enough to cast into the second round, or even the third.
Just because it's possible for a wizard to have a diverse array of solutions to different problems doesn't mean that there's no value in having a universal answer that can apply to every combat you find yourself in.

[Waazraath]

We all know that by mid levels martial characters start to fall behind the spellcasters. I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help. I have some across-the-board ideas that I think will help, and some more selective bonuses, but I wanted to run it past other DMs to get their opinions. Generally, I want something that spellcasters can also enjoy, but benefit martials more.

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

I'm looking for more suggestions or critiques.

A few points on all this:

1) your suggestions seem ok. Imo the martial classes can do more then enough damage already as it is (compared to enemies hp out of the different MM's), if the player puts some effort in it, so the first two suggestions I'm less enthusiastic about - but if in your game this is a thing (that the damage output of martials is too low), do it. I'm more enthusiastic about the last three. Skill points definitely make a difference, even at mid to high levels, feats all the more (and can be used to get cool supernatural abilities - the ToB feats, devotion feats, the ones that give you a cohort or custom magic items).

2) some other simple suggsetions:
- consider non-ToB classes as giving full initator level - this enables fighters, barbarians and monks to pick strong ToB-options as feats
- consider giving them a few bonus points in ability scores (several martials suffer from MAD)
- consider giving them more racial options then other classes (though this could be seen as 'nerfing casters' - but in several games I've been, the standard was: the stronger the class you playes, the less sources / books / silly tricks were assumed, the weaker the class, the more you were allowed to go all out optimization frenzy; so the standard dwarf generalist wizard 20 would be in the party with the [weird race] martial combining 4 base classes and 3 prestige classes, and a template, and feats from 8 books.
- look at the fixes that are there already (plenty availbable, from giving full bab to the monk, more spells to the paladin and ranger, etc.)

BUT

3) the effectivity of all this highly differs depends on the type of campaign you run. In a high level, high op campagin, all of the above will have very little effect, the disparity is just too big. On the other hand: the "casters rule and martials suck" has become a cliché at these kind of boards, while in actual play this is much less the case. In my experience, up to mid level there really isn't a problem, unless the optimization level is really high. At low levels, martials are often better, barring dubious and / or obviously non intened tricks (early entry in prestige classes, for example), and barring DM's that group all enemies convieniently for 1 area spell like sleep, DM's that allow the 5 min adventuring day, etc.

[Troacctid]

- consider non-ToB classes as giving full initator level - this enables fighters, barbarians and monks to pick strong ToB-options as feats
I've tried this, and it ended up being more of a buff for ToB classes than non-ToB classes. Your swordsage, warblade, and crusader were still obviously more powerful than your fighter, monk, and barbarian, but now they could dip those classes for free and get all the benefits without even slowing down their own progressions.


- consider giving them a few bonus points in ability scores (several martials suffer from MAD)
This doesn't play very nicely with 3.5's multiclass system.

[Eldariel]

I think this is key. Magic is always going to be more powerful than not-magic, because the way magic breaks rules. That is intentional, part of the world. I personally like it. Any mid-level warrior who is not some sort of gish is limiting themselves, like a modern soldier going on patrol without a firearm, kevlar, and radio. You can, and there are still knives and spears in the world, but's it's so bloody stupid. It's not like magic is hard to get from the mid levels onwards*, the game is explicitly build around it.

I actually like just giving mundane classes even more of their thing on high levels. Sure, they can't use magic but I like going the Greek Hero route minus the divine meddling background: place 'em in the Achilleus/Hector/Odysseus/Herakles/Paris/Ajax spectrum of power. They're just that strong, just that fast, just that cunning. One might be able to cut through magical obstacles like they're paper, another can anticipate events to such degree that it seems like they've already prepared for everything that is about to happen (crunch: able to take multiple immediate actions every turn, able to move and attack and disrupt actions and such as an immediate action), one might just be so quick and skilled that there's hardly anything they couldn't hit and hardly anything that could affect them, et cetera. Prepare to kill them a dozen times 'cause killing them once or twice or thrice isn't gonna hold 'em down.

Again, this doesn't make them as strong as casters but combined with magic items and their thing at which they're better than spells which do the same, they are a threat to be taken seriously, to casters and non-casters alike. Sure, they still hold absolutely no candle on the omnipotent power of Astral Projection, Genesis, Shapechange, etc. and to that end I like to make the omnipotent spells take a bit more effort and be a bit less omnipotent; just have some small weaknesses (e.g. the AD&D style Shapechange where the diadem remains regardless of your form and can be destroyed to end the spell and is consumed at the end of it - along with limits on supernatural abilities replicating spells that would require). Limiting the spells won't make Wizards less awesome but it forces them to work a bit harder to become untouchable - some threat is always nice. They can become insanely powerful but there should be limits to everything.


Making all spells cost at least one full round of casting is a good way to add more tactical and team elements to spellcasting. If you combine it with a soft cap on buffstacks, by limiting things like free metamagic and crafting cost reductions, you can greatly extend the range of relative parity between martials and mundanes, for all but the highest-OP casters.

I actually like the idea of magicks interacting with each other which places a practical hard limit on the amount of magical power a given vessel can carry. It's very flavorful, logical and limits the extreme optimization setups without meaningfully impacting most of the normal ones. At worst it forces casters to be a bit more picky about which buffs they prefer to use, and provides a new avenue of attack in overloading the amount of magical energy on some target. Which I like because it means that casters can make themselves immune to most things but usually have to leave at some points open.


EDIT: Oh yeah and I like moving magic item creation to the realm of smiths. So anyone can learn it and you don't need to be a caster to that end. I actually like people being most attuned to stuff relevant to them. A warrior being able to craft arm and armor and imbue magic upon them in creation is in my preference and the LotRian tradition a skill of the smith.

[Formless Entity]

I actually like just giving mundane classes even more of their thing on high levels. Sure, they can't use magic but I like going the Greek Hero route minus the divine meddling background: place 'em in the Achilleus/Hector/Odysseus/Herakles/Paris/Ajax spectrum of power. They're just that strong, just that fast, just that cunning. One might be able to cut through magical obstacles like they're paper, another can anticipate events to such degree that it seems like they've already prepared for everything that is about to happen (crunch: able to take multiple immediate actions every turn, able to move and attack and disrupt actions and such as an immediate action), one might just be so quick and skilled that there's hardly anything they couldn't hit and hardly anything that could affect them, et cetera. Prepare to kill them a dozen times 'cause killing them once or twice or thrice isn't gonna hold 'em down.


Perhaps give martial classes even more HP and better saving throws?

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I think I have a solution that doesn't nerf casters, per se, but it opens the table a bit. Try making full-casters that fall in to Tier 1 and Tier 2 (because I think that hits the major "problem" areas) into prestige classes. This lets you have Bards still (like I said, I think) so you will still have some magical augmentation without it overshadowing your mundane characters. Then, later in levels, when certain requirements are met the character can prestige in to a full casting class. Have the prerequisites be:
Previous classes can't have give you spells known/spells per day or any other form of spell casting (so no bard to wizard)
Knowledge (Arcana) 6 for arcane casters (wizards/sorcerers/beguilers)
Knowledge (Religion/Nature) 6 for your divine casters (Druids/Clerics)





1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


1st
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
4
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
4
2
2
1
-
-
-
-
-


5th
4
3
2
2
1
-
-
-
-


6th
4
3
3
2
2
1
-
-
-


7th
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
-
-


8th
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
1
-


9th
4
4
4
3
3
3
2
2
1


10th
4
4
4
4
3
3
3
2
2


11th
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
3
3







1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


1st
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
3
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-


5th
4
3
2
2
-
-
-
-
-


6th
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-


7th
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-


8th
4
4
3
3
2
1
-
-
-


9th
4
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-


10th
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-


11th
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
-
-


12th
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1
-


13th
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2
-


14th
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
2
1


15th
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3
2


16th
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
3
3


17th
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4
4








1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


1st
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
4
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
4
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
4
2
2
1
-
-
-
-
-


5th
5
3
2
2
1
-
-
-
-


6th
5
3
3
2
2
1
-
-
-


7th
5
3
3
3
2
2
1
-
-


8th
5
4
4
3
3
3
2
1
-


9th
5
4
4
4
3
3
3
2
1


10th
5
4
4
4
3
3
3
2
2


11th
5
4
4
4
4
3
3
3
3








1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9


1st
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
3
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-
-


5th
4
3
2
2
-
-
-
-
-


6th
4
4
3
2
1
-
-
-
-


7th
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-
-


8th
5
4
3
3
2
1
-
-
-


9th
5
4
4
3
3
2
-
-
-


10th
5
4
4
4
3
2
1
-
-


11th
5
5
4
4
3
3
2
-
-


12th
5
5
4
4
4
3
2
1
-


13th
5
5
5
4
4
3
3
2
-


14th
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
2
1


15th
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
3
2


16th
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
3
3


17th
5
5
5
5
5
4
4
4
4




I think this might work for evening things out, but I do realize that it just paints a white wash over the problem as opposed to bridging the gap. Its neither a nerf or a buff to spell casters or martial characters, but it makes spell casting something that they have to work for and want and once you are able to cast spells they won't be overbearing to anyone.

With this system some likely combinations are going to be Rogue 9/Prestige Wizard 11, Rogue 9/Prestige Sorcerer 11, Paladin 3/Prestige Cleric 17.

The idea isn't to make anything less or more powerful but to give everything else a chance. I know this is far from perfect, but it has worked for me in the past.

[Eldariel]

Perhaps give martial classes even more HP and better saving throws?

Like I said earlier, I think that's absolutely a thing you could and probably should do. Currently warrior classes are barely hardier than casters even without spells, which is just silly. However, that's just the tip of the iceberg, the root of the mountain, the first tree of the forest. You need to give 'em a lot more than currently (saves need to be great across the board and I like at least 2xCon to HP), but without various resistances and immunities to stuff like Shivering Touch, Irresistible Dance, etc. and some ways to hedge against the inevitable poor rolls that's far from sufficient. The game has abilities like Mettle, Evasion, Slippery Mind, Personal Mind Blank, Free Movement, etc. but warriors don't have an easy access to that stuff and it still doesn't cover everything.

Some ability to survive death effects without a complete immunity perhaps, ability to roll saves for things that don't normally allow for saves, ability to move in areas that would make it difficult or impossible, ability to break things that are really hard or impossible to break normally, ability to fire ranged weapons through storms that would normally make it impossible, some ability to affect incorporeal creatures, all that should be a standard package from where you begin building up.


Nowadays warriors mostly rely on magic items for that stuff which means they rely on magic item availability and more importantly, it means a warrior is very easy to turn off with a simple Chain Greater Dispel Magic through their items. That's enough to disable them for some rounds (item caster levels mostly suck so succeeding the Dispel-checks is easy) during which the Warrior can't do anything. And you can chain through multiple targets' items. Then just target one of the myriad of weaknesses they suddenly are no longer immune to and lack stat buffs to. Plus hiding warriors is impossible: they shine like Christmas trees in face of Arcane Sight and its variants. Plus they can't invest in magic items they actually want 'cause they have so many fundamental weaknesses they need to cover for first. It's just an untenable situation.

[Formless Entity]

Im going to homebrew some changes to the 3.5 core classes and link them here for some critique later.

[Formless Entity]

Adjusted Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?491423-D-amp-D-3-5-Adjusted-for-Balance-Series-Fighter&p=20891959#post20891959)

[Cosi]

Races of War (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Races_of_War_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29) has a number of martial classes that are designed to be competitive with casters. If the classes seem too much, you can use ToB classes with the feats. That should be pretty close to good.

If you want a quick and dirty fix, try something like the following:

1. Martial characters are ToB (or I guess Path of War) gestalted with non-casting non-ToB/PoW.
2. Martial characters get an extra standard action every four levels.
3. Martial characters get a single spell of each level a Sorcerer of their level could cast, either always active or usable as an SLA with a ten minute casting time three times per day.
4. For feat trees, the highest feat replaces the initial feat (i.e. Perfect TWF over TWF).


-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks

Doesn't really do enough to compensate for HP bloat.


-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes

You could give the Fighter every single Fighter feat, and that would not be good enough past 11th level.


-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)

This should happen in general. If you get one feat every three levels, needing so sink two or more feats into just doing whatever it is you do is unacceptable.


-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

This is good, but it doesn't really do much. It's stupid that you can't play a Fighter with Diplomacy or more than two skills, but (with the exception of Diplomacy, UMD, and some other abusable skills) skills don't really compare to even mid level spells. I don't know how big your craft check has to be to be as good as fabricate, but it is a large number.


Address any spells that infringe on warriors' territory (change BAB). At least Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation need to be revamped to not touch BAB. Bonuses are fine.

Why? Isn't the game richer if there's more than one way to do something? It's not a problem that Uberchargers, TWF Rogues/DFI Bards/Swift Hunters, and Mailmen can all have high DPS. Unless something is broken, you should always respond to imbalance by buffing other options.


Then make higher difficulty skills more doable for skill classes. Flat bonuses, class-based double value ranks or whatever. Skill monkeys should be looking at what are currently epic uses for e.g. Spot or Bluff by level 6-10 - stuff like having a chance to see through Illusions or hiding surface thoughts.W

This is a good plan. People need utility abilities, and tying them to skills is easy to work into the system.


1) Lower the amount of spells they can learn and state that spells are a rare and precious commodity that is not shared.

2) Make them take concentration rolls to cast spells and say that in your world it is more difficult to bend magic to your will or receive it through deities.

3) Both of the above.

Martials don't suck because they're worse than casters. They suck because they suck. No amount of nerfs to casters will make Fighter a thing you want to write on your character sheet.

Also, those nerfs (especially 1, Sorcerers still rock people's socks off) don't address the real problem spells. I can break the game if the only spells I get to know are dimensional anchor, magic circle against evil, and planar binding, even if it takes me an hour to cast each of them. What I can't do is any of the stuff casters do that is remotely reasonable or fair.

[Eldariel]

Why? Isn't the game richer if there's more than one way to do something? It's not a problem that Uberchargers, TWF Rogues/DFI Bards/Swift Hunters, and Mailmen can all have high DPS. Unless something is broken, you should always respond to imbalance by buffing other options.

Not really affected by these changes and beyond the point anyways. None of the archetypes you listed would actually change. Traditional gishes (gishes actually taking classes with BAB as a relevant boon, not the Incantatrix-Gishes) and straight warriors would be the primary beneficiaries. The point of changing Divine Power and other ways of getting full BAB through spells is that this allows making BAB a relevant boon for taking martial class levels - warriors and gishes wouldn't be strictly worse than Incantatars who felt like being fighters that day for funzies. They'd have one small thing that's not instantly replicated by spells (though spells could make up for any numeric difference anyways).

If casters can get the "special thing" from warrior-levels with a spell, all buffs for warriors will also buff the casters; thus the buffs don't change anything. Changing those spells to give larger bonuses instead of altering BAB (see e.g. PF Divine Power, a fine spell but doesn't make a ½ BAB Wizard instantaneously as good a warrior as the man who spent all his life honing his sword skills) allows you to add BAB-based bonuses for warriors and gishes that gives them demonstrable advantages over non-warriors in combat. Casters will still be able to buff up and get big if they want to but they can't do everything warriors can just because they cast a spell. They'd do things differently, is the point.

[martixy]

This one again...

Well, the answer is easy. Give them things to do.
Give them the option to do more than "I walk up to it and hit it repeatedly".

There are many aspects of the game you can poach for this purpose.
For example, I made action points a mechanic unique to mundanes.
Fixing feat taxes is another approach. And I don't mean just for what's popular. I mean fixing obscure feats, such that new fighting styles become competitive.
Called shots.
Critical effects.

IMO, nerfing casters is also a valid approach, but incredibly tricky to do well, as the point would not be to reduce their raw power, just their opportunity to use it with impunity. Not sure how though.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Formless Entity
1) I obliviously was going to change that so that Wizards and Clerics have a limited number.

Taken literally this is kind of funny.

:smalltongue:

[Anachronity]

If you don't want to nerf casters, then Tome of Battle stuff really is the best option.

My preferred means is to nerf the scope of power that spellcasters have, rather than the typical level of power.

What this means is a system restricting which schools of magic a caster has access to, rearranging which school spells are in to reinforce the limitations of a school (I'm looking at you Orb of Fire), nerfing wildcard spells like Polymorph and Wish, and implementing some system (your choice, really) that heavily penalizes casters for spells outside of one or two schools of their choice.

Then I would nerf the power of the "can only be countered by more magic" spells, because honestly those are just seriously problematic (Rope Trick, Reverse Gravity, Wall of Force, Teleport, Forcecage, and just about any other spell that disables someone with "Saving Throw: None" or that creates an impenetrable hidey-place. Teleportation effects are relatively low on the scale for me, they just need a longer casting time.)

[Formless Entity]

Taken literally this is kind of funny.

:smalltongue:

I agree.

That is a bad typo.

[digiman619]

Step 1: Remove Vancian magic.
Step 2: Back-port Spheres of Power.
Step 3: Remove standard Martials
Step 4: Add Tome of Battle and/or back-port Path of War.
Step 5: Stop *****ing about class imbalance and start having fun.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Step 1: Remove Vancian magic.
Step 2: Back-port Spheres of Power.
Step 3: Remove standard Martials
Step 4: Add Tome of Battle and/or back-port Path of War.
Step 5: Stop *****ing about class imbalance and start having fun.
You don't even need step 1-3.

[Eldariel]

Step 1: Remove Vancian magic.
Step 2: Back-port Spheres of Power.
Step 3: Remove standard Martials
Step 4: Add Tome of Battle and/or back-port Path of War.
Step 5: Stop *****ing about class imbalance and start having fun.

It's not like the experience can't be enhanced by further changing the system. Plus some people enjoy the tinkering itself. I don't understand why you'd so readily condemn such endeavours - isn't it everybody's own business how they have fun or indeed, what they find fun?

[prufock]

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

Options 1 and 2 don't do anything but increase numbers that are already high. This isn't really necessary.

Option 3 is okay. I usually fill dead levels with a bonus feat or some similar ability.

Option 4, consolidating feat trees, is definitely a good one. Some feats are just a tax for later feats. This is something I've thought of integrating into my games as well.

Option 5 is good, since it will allow martial characters to be better at more things. I find that many skills peak around the mid-high levels (until you get them high enough for epic), but most games I've played take place at low-mid levels, so it's still useful.

The thing with spells is that they are just so darn varied. It's difficult to just tack on a band-aid fix as an afterthought to martial characters that will measure up. Giving a slower martial maneuvers progression to some classes helps, but it's easier to just play an initiator class.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by prufrock
Option 3 is okay. I usually fill dead levels with a bonus feat or some similar ability.

What sorts of dead-level abilities do you use? Do you have a list you've worked up, or do you make additions on the fly, depending on the situation?

[prufock]

What sorts of dead-level abilities do you use? Do you have a list you've worked up, or do you make additions on the fly, depending on the situation?

I flat-out don't like levels where you gain nothing but higher numbers. Usually, I'll work with the player to decide what's sensible. Nothing over the top. A bonus feat is the default fallback. Often I'll tack on an ACF, even if it isn't the "correct" level, without losing anything.

[daremetoidareyo]

Homebrew.

Mundanes need a way to force saves that aren't fort saves. Mundanes need a way, besides poison, to drop opponents' ability scores. Mundanes need travel options (swim climb fly) antiflight options, and martial weapons or abilities that can eat up terrain. A few social benefits would help too. A High damage non volley ranged option is necessary too.

Skill tricks, 2 for 1 bonus fighter feats, or allowing all bonus feats be drawn from any feat category would help.

[ahenobarbi]

We all know that by mid levels martial characters start to fall behind the spellcasters. I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help. I have some across-the-board ideas that I think will help, and some more selective bonuses, but I wanted to run it past other DMs to get their opinions. Generally, I want something that spellcasters can also enjoy, but benefit martials more.

Some of the ideas include:
-Adding BAB to damage on physical attacks
-Iterative attacks don't use lower Attack Bonus (+6/+6 or +12/+12/+12 instead of +6/+1 or +12/+7/+2)
-More bonus feats for fighters, maybe give some to other martial classes
-Consolidate certain feat trees (2-Weapon Fighting as a prime example)
-More skill points and class skills for fighter-types

I'm looking for more suggestions or critiques.

Avoid bad options instead of trying to make them better (Commoner is even weaker class than Fighter but I've never seen anyone trying to "fix it") (and help your players if they need it, it'll take much less of your time than fixing mundane classes) (but do that thing with collapsing (some) feat chains, many of them are terrible / making interesting concepts impossible).

[OldTrees1]

There are many ways to buff martials. So much so that vast internet arguments arise between various buffs. So it is best to ask your martial players about what they consider important/fun about martials so that your buff does not remove that aspect.

Personally I am a big fan of making "feats that matter and are worthwhile". By its nature that is both vague in shape (dependent on the player) and descriptive of the magnitude (If Fighter gets 1 feat per N levels, then feat features must be worth N levels worth of class features).

[Formless Entity]

Maybe I can combine this idea with the idea of making the melee combat more realistic as well as the arms and armor.

You could call shots, do maneuvers with other martial classes, resist damage with armor instead of adding dps, add more options to use in place of melee damages and such.

I could probably make this happen due to the time I have spent in HEMA. I could also add some Japanese style things in too from Kenjutsu, though to be honest it is not as different as people think.

[Triskavanski]

The biggest issue I have with Martial vs Magic

Martial Hyperspecilizes in one weapon, one style, one trick.

Magic is anything but hyperspec.


Weapon focus gives you a single weapon +1 to hit.
Spell Focus gives you +1 DC to a whole school of spells. Since many spell schools have multiple functions they can do beyond "I poke it to death", You've got so many more ways to use that +1 DC. Run into an enemy who is immune to the weapon and your feat is useless.

Metamagic is highly flexible. Improved Disarm only works against certain enemies.

[Necromancy]

One thing we already do in games is have profession (Soldier) free for full BAB martials

it's used for anything soldier/military themed, from bluff/diplomacy/intimidate on town guards, strategy, etc with bonuses that set it above even the face man of the party.

For further buffing, I would go as far as to give out a plethora of free feats. For example, say every time a class gets a bonus feat, they can also take a second bonus feat from the crap pile (non fighter bonus feats, etc). This actually gets the junk feats into the game to see real use (+2 skill feats etc)

[martixy]

The biggest issue I have with Martial vs Magic

Martial Hyperspecilizes in one weapon, one style, one trick.

Magic is anything but hyperspec.


Weapon focus gives you a single weapon +1 to hit.
Spell Focus gives you +1 DC to a whole school of spells. Since many spell schools have multiple functions they can do beyond "I poke it to death", You've got so many more ways to use that +1 DC. Run into an enemy who is immune to the weapon and your feat is useless.

Metamagic is highly flexible. Improved Disarm only works against certain enemies.

That one's obvious. Heck, it's even in the books. UA's weapon groups do just that.
I take it a step further by letting people buy proficiencies with BAB. It doesn't increase a character's power, but sure does increase versatility.

It's actually somewhat similar to how magic is tied to caster level. Or related to.

[Barbarian Horde]

Image is for those with mature age. It does have profanity in it so do not open it. Just a meme I found on google. I do feel it is appropriate to the current subject of this topic.
http://i.imgur.com/hm9NLig.jpg

[Triskavanski]

That one's obvious. Heck, it's even in the books. UA's weapon groups do just that.
I take it a step further by letting people buy proficiencies with BAB. It doesn't increase a character's power, but sure does increase versatility.

It's actually somewhat similar to how magic is tied to caster level. Or related to.

Weapon groups though really don't increase versatility. There is a few exceptions, but most of them are the ability to swing a sword that does 1d8 points of slashing damage and has 19-20 crit or swing sword that does 1d10 points of slashing damage with 19-20 crit.

The way I'd do Weapon groups is I'd have the Weapon groups that are the same, and weapon groups by job.

We've got the Pirate Weapon Group for example that has a number of weapons you'd see pirates use.

Why not

Soldier Weapon Group - A couple of maces, some swords, and crossbows(or bows). Generally heavier weapons used for war.
Scout Group - Lighter weapons like Daggers, short swords and bows. Generally weapons that are light and easy to carry.
Scoundrel Group - Daggers, hand crossbows, darts, etc. Generally weapons that are small and easily hidden.
Knight weapon group - Lances, swords etc. Stuff that can be used horseback, typically with a shield in the off hand.
Bounty Hunter Group - Bolas, Whips, man catcher, daggers etc. A variety of weapons meant to capture an enemy without killing them

[Boogastreehouse]

*



I would recommend a nerf not a ban.


I would recommend neither. Imbalance is a part of the game...


I strongly agree. While playing chess, do we enact house rules to make bishops more powerful, or nerf the queen because it is more versatile than the rook?

Of course not. The queen is more versatile than the rook, plain and simple. A smart chess player doesn't rely solely on her queen, though. A queen is better at being a queen if it has a rook backing it up, and a rook is more potent with a queen backing it up.

Unless the GM is foolishly allowing the players to engage in 5-minute adventuring days, a wizard should always be hesitant to try and solve every problem herself. The Wizard needs to be afraid of blowing all of her spells, because of the constant possibility of ambushes and other unforeseen events. This goes a long way toward giving melee and skill-based characters a chance to do their thing.

That's the closest thing to a nerf that I ever really need; keep the characters from resting until the fighters are pretty beat up, and even then make the casters want to keep some spells in reserve, because they're afraid that the rival NPCs might be waiting to strike while the party is weak.

If the party is still high on resources, and they try to end their day early so the casters can rest and be at full strength, make them regret it. Have the upcoming encounters come to them. All at once. Make it clear that the monsters are putting up a tougher fight because they're the ones initiating the combat. Have the ogres tell the wights that it sure was a good idea to team up this one time. Make sure the players hear that.

This doesn't solve everything, of course, but in my experience it certainly helps to keep the players on their toes.

*

[LTwerewolf]

The problem with the chess analogy is that you have the same person playing the queen and the pawn. In d&d, one person plays the queen, and the other plays the pawn.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The problem with the chess analogy is that you have the same person playing the queen and the pawn. In d&d, one person plays the queen, and the other plays the pawn.
Exactly this. A good (for some value of 'good') solution is to make everyone play a full caster with (a) noncasting bodyguard(s), but that's going to make round-by-round play last forever, and is really only viable for players who are very fluent in combat mechanics.

[Boogastreehouse]

*


The problem with the chess analogy is that you have the same person playing the queen and the pawn. In d&d, one person plays the queen, and the other plays the pawn.

Well, sure, but I'm trying to explore ways of make playing a weaker piece more exciting, without changing the nature of the piece. My belief is that many of the "problems" with the weaker classes could be the result of pacing choices on the part of the GM.

Increasing the pace of the action, not letting up on the danger very often, limiting their downtime; these tactics can give the fighters and rogues more opportunities to run around while the wizards and clerics cautiously monitor their resources. Sure, fighters have to expend resources in the form of HP, but that's okay. Some encounters can be tough on them, but some encounters will barely scratch them. I try to keep track of the melee character's resources, and pace the dangers with that in mind.

I also try to put lots of details into scenes. If you put some kind of winch and pulley device in a room, and the rogue doesn't try to come up with a way to use it on the monster, then they deserve to be out-performed by the wizard.

I'm not an expert GM, and there are people on these boards who have way more experience than I. Keeping multiple players feeling engaged is just something that I have had some success with, so I wanted to share my thoughts.

*

[Seppo87]

I'm not a fan of nerfing the casters much, but boosting the fighters should help.
This is a common misconception. Unfortunately, the problem has little to do with combat potential:
3.5 martials are perfectly capable of dealing thousands of damage and reaching unhittable ACs and saves (vs monsters, not vs optimized pvp)

You can give them more of the same, that is NOT what they need though.

What Martials need is:

1) More skill points and free skill unlocks (see Pathfinder) for everyone (only martial classes count for this purpose)

2) Features that prevent being disabled. Aka - immunity to conditions x/combat, or ignore 1 or more spell effect as if it didn't exist even if it didn's allow for a save.

I.E. LV5 Fighter can spend 1 use of "combat prowess class feature" as an immediate action to negate being grappled, proned, entangled, stunned or othwerise restricted in movement and/or actions for 1 round.
If no save or opposed check was allowed, he must succeed at an opposed check to negate the effect.

I.E.2 LV7 Ranger can enhance its combat style to overcome unusual defences: When shooting with a ranged weapon, any effect that would negate one or more attacks (deflect arrows, wind wall) becomes instead a 50% miss chance. Furthermore, he rolls twice to overcome miss chances.
If he fights with two weapons instead, he can ignore half his Ranger level of an enemy's Damage Reduction

I.E.3 all martials at LVx get an opportunity attack at -10 when someone tries to teleport away regardless of concentration

Basically you don't need to make martials more effective. Just help them to avoid becoming ineffective.
Martials are too esay to disable, their theoretical power becomes null if they aren't allowed to use it.
Who cares about dealing 100K damage if Abrupt Jaunt makes you unable to deliver?

Solve this and it will work.

[LTwerewolf]

I'm not an expert GM, and there are people on these boards who have way more experience than I. Keeping multiple players feeling engaged is just something that I have had some success with, so I wanted to share my thoughts.



I've not found that pacing is the problem at all, I've found that people get pretty meh when their options consist of 1)the fighter takes on challenges much more basic and simple (and therefore less cool) than the wizard 2) being the bodyguard (i'd use another word that starts with b and is 5 letters, but profanity filters) to a wizard because the wizard can solve the problem 3)ties into 1 and 2 in that the types of encounters they get to solve is incredibly limited and does not evolve.

Fighters, when hyper specialized, can do a lot of damage. That's their thing. No one argues against that. The fighter can't, however, get an entire group across the ravine that has no bridge, nor can they help diplomize that banker, nor can they circumnavigate a mountain in a reasonable time. After 15 years of DMing I've found that when people have one trick ponies, they get bored and want to move on to another character. A class should be fun to play from level 1-20, not from level 1-7.

[AnimeTheCat]

*



Well, sure, but I'm trying to explore ways of make playing a weaker piece more exciting, without changing the nature of the piece. My belief is that many of the "problems" with the weaker classes could be the result of pacing choices on the part of the GM.

Increasing the pace of the action, not letting up on the danger very often, limiting their downtime; these tactics can give the fighters and rogues more opportunities to run around while the wizards and clerics cautiously monitor their resources. Sure, fighters have to expend resources in the form of HP, but that's okay. Some encounters can be tough on them, but some encounters will barely scratch them. I try to keep track of the melee character's resources, and pace the dangers with that in mind.

I also try to put lots of details into scenes. If you put some kind of winch and pulley device in a room, and the rogue doesn't try to come up with a way to use it on the monster, then they deserve to be out-performed by the wizard.

I'm not an expert GM, and there are people on these boards who have way more experience than I. Keeping multiple players feeling engaged is just something that I have had some success with, so I wanted to share my thoughts.

*

I agree that using well controlled resource management can be effective, but only at particularly low levels where the wizard can't purchase or create wands. Then they always have the ability (unless they trade it away) to scribe scrolls, thereby enhancing their resources and lengthening the number of encounters they can be gainfully employed in.

[Triskavanski]

I've not found that pacing is the problem at all, I've found that people get pretty meh when their options consist of 1)the fighter takes on challenges much more basic and simple (and therefore less cool) than the wizard 2) being the bodyguard (i'd use another word that starts with b and is 5 letters, but profanity filters) to a wizard because the wizard can solve the problem 3)ties into 1 and 2 in that the types of encounters they get to solve is incredibly limited and does not evolve.

Fighters, when hyper specialized, can do a lot of damage. That's their thing. No one argues against that. The fighter can't, however, get an entire group across the ravine that has no bridge, nor can they help diplomize that banker, nor can they circumnavigate a mountain in a reasonable time. After 15 years of DMing I've found that when people have one trick ponies, they get bored and want to move on to another character. A class should be fun to play from level 1-20, not from level 1-7.

This here.

We had a game where there was three of us. A bard, a sorcerer, and my Centaur Fighter. As a fighter, I had bad skills, no magic, nothing. sure I'd go through and try to help, but there was only so much I could do as a fighter. Especially with as easy as it was to charm me.

Meanwhile the Sorc didn't have any of the things you'd expect from a wizard and both the casters were not ones who really though too much about things. it left me feeling frustrated when we've come across puzzles and the other players couldn't think of what to do, but I could. However our characters are not together in a way that would allow that.