Mounted Combat questions

[Melcar]

Hellow scribes…

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the mounted combat abilities and how they work and what can be combined and which can’t. In relation to this I have some questions that, despite my effort here and on google have been unable to answer for myself. I hope that the brilliant minds here can be of help. Here goes:


• When my griffon mount uses flyby attack, which natural weapon is it using? Bite or claw?

• When my flying griffon mount as part of a flyby attack, flies at least 30 ft. and descends 10 ft., does it deal double damage with its attack?

• When my griffon uses flyby attack, does the rider get an attack as well? And would this be double damage or regular damage when using a lance?

• When doing multiple flyby (via great flyby) would the rider also get multiple attacks based on Dex?

• When my mount makes a dive attack (flying charge) it says it deals double damage, (page 27 Rules compendium) does this double damage also affect the rider for quadruple damage with a lance? And, can I combine that with spirited charge to give the rider a x5 damage on his charge as well, as per the rules on page 157 in PHB?

• When my mount makes a dive attack (flying charge) and pounces, does it still do double damage will all attacks as per the rules of page 27 of the rules compendium?

• When I use Ride-by attack while flying, does my mount get an attack as well? And would that be a charge or a regular? Would it do normal or double damage? And what natural weapon would it be? Bite or Claw?

• When doing a flying overrun (via trample feat), the mount gets a hoof attack, would this be a claw on the griffon? And would it do double or normal damage?

• When doing a flying overrun (via trample feat), would the rider get an attack as well? And what kind of attack would it be? Would it do double or normal damage, when using a lance?


I know that some of these questions might seem simple and easy to answer but apparently I have not been able to find the answers. Thank you for any help. Depending on the answers I will have further questions.

Thanks

[Flickerdart]

• When my griffon mount uses flyby attack, which natural weapon is it using? Bite or claw?
A griffon's single attack is his bite, so that's what he uses.



• When my flying griffon mount as part of a flyby attack, flies at least 30 ft. and descends 10 ft., does it deal double damage with its attack?

No; a flyby attack is not a dive.



• When my griffon uses flyby attack, does the rider get an attack as well? And would this be double damage or regular damage when using a lance?

You can ready an action to attack the enemy while your mount passes by. You get one standard action attack, and deal regular damage.



• When doing multiple flyby (via great flyby) would the rider also get multiple attacks based on Dex?

No. You do not gain the benefit of the griffon's feats.



• When my mount makes a dive attack (flying charge) it says it deals double damage, (page 27 Rules compendium) does this double damage also affect the rider for quadruple damage with a lance? And, can I combine that with spirited charge to give the rider a x5 damage on his charge as well, as per the rules on page 157 in PHB?

No, the rider does not gain the benefits of the dive attack, because he is not the one diving, nor is he attacking with talons.



• When my mount makes a dive attack (flying charge) and pounces, does it still do double damage will all attacks as per the rules of page 27 of the rules compendium?

All claw or talon attacks deal double damage.



• When I use Ride-by attack while flying, does my mount get an attack as well? And would that be a charge or a regular? Would it do normal or double damage? And what natural weapon would it be? Bite or Claw?

The mount gets its own charge attacks. By the rules it is the mount that is charging, not you, you just get the benefits. Mounted combat is weird.



• When doing a flying overrun (via trample feat), the mount gets a hoof attack, would this be a claw on the griffon? And would it do double or normal damage?

The griffon gets no attacks. If you manage to give it a hoof, it deals normal damage.



• When doing a flying overrun (via trample feat), would the rider get an attack as well? And what kind of attack would it be? Would it do double or normal damage, when using a lance?

The rider gets no attacks. There is a feat that allows this (Valenar trample) but it does not work with griffons (only horses).

[Melcar]

Thank you for those great answers. As I said I have some follow up questions:


No; a flyby attack is not a dive.
But the feat says , yet no maneuver exists except the dive you mention?? It might not allow pounce but it would look like it would allow the double damage of the claws?


The mount gets its own charge attacks. By the rules it is the mount that is charging, not you, you just get the benefits. Mounted combat is weird

So no attacks at all, or can it actually do a charge during the application of the [I]ride-by attack feat? I’m a bit unsure of how to read your answer I’ afraid.


The griffon gets no attacks. If you manage to give it a hoof, it deals normal damage.
Would it not be reasonable to assume that when doing an overrun (via trample) one could substitute a claw for a hoof? It would seem strange, that the feat should be only viable on a hoofed creature? Right?

Thanks!

[Flickerdart]

But the feat says , yet no maneuver exists except the dive you mention?? It might not allow pounce but it would look like it would allow the double damage of the claws?
It says "move action (including a dive)". You can dive with it, but you can't make attacks as part of that dive, so you get no bonuses.




So no attacks at all, or can it actually do a charge during the application of the [I]ride-by attack feat? I’m a bit unsure of how to read your answer I’ afraid.

No, it does get attacks. That's what I saw saying.



Would it not be reasonable to assume that when doing an overrun (via trample) one could substitute a claw for a hoof? It would seem strange, that the feat should be only viable on a hoofed creature? Right?
Ask your DM. The writers often happily forget that characters aren't always bipedal humanoids, and their mounts aren't always horses. By the rules as written, claws don't work.

[Jack Mann]

Amusingly, by a strict reading of rules as written, you can't attack with a lance on a mounted charge. Because your mount is the one charging, the charge must end at first space the griffon can attack from. Griffons have 5-foot reach, so it must end adjacent to the target. Your attack occurs when movement ends. However, a lance is a reach weapon and can't attack adjacent enemies.

This is obviously not the intent of the rules (hence the rules referencing mounted charges with a lance), but it's one of those bits of rules interaction the writers didn't catch. I don't imagine any DM would ever rule that way, but I find it amusing.

[Melcar]

It says "move action (including a dive)". You can dive with it, but you can't make attacks as part of that dive, so you get no bonuses.

Ok… I see how that can be interpreted, but it would look like a dive is only mentioned as part of the dive attack. So the mention of a ”dive” MUST mean a dive attack, since that the only place where dive is mentioned. It’s like saying ride-by without it meaning ride-by attack. Its mentioned in a way that indicates that it’s a term and not just the word.



No, it does get attacks. That's what I saw saying.

So when I use Ride-by attack, the rider gets one attack at +2 attack, -2 AC, dealing double damage with a lance and the mount also gets to charge with the same bonuses. Thus the Griffon gets to pounce and because of it’s through the applications of ride-by attack, it then moves up to the enemy, pounces and then moves again “by” or passed the enemy. And because the is on wings i.e. flying thus one could “dive” on the enemy and then increase altitude again afterwards. That would then permit 5 attacks from the griffon mount one bite, two claws and two rake attacks and one double damage charge attack from the rider. Is this the correct way ride-by attack functions?

And if a flying mount charging as part of the ride-by by flying at least 30 ft. and descending at least 10 ft. would the mount get double damage on its claws during this ride-by charge? And would that apply the the rake aswell?

And if this is really the way it works, then flyby attack seems quite redundant when applied to a mount where the rider has the ride-by attack feat.



Ask your DM. The writers often happily forget that characters aren't always bipedal humanoids, and their mounts aren't always horses. By the rules as written, claws don't work. Indeed... way too often.

[Flickerdart]

And if this is really the way it works, then flyby attack seems quite redundant when applied to a mount where the rider has the ride-by attack feat.
Ride-by attack is heavily restricted in how you can move and what you can do. Fly-by attack gives you a generic standard action, which can be used to cast a spell, or activate a martial maneuver, or any number of things. But generally, they are both the same idea, and having both isn't all that useful.

[Melcar]

Ride-by attack is heavily restricted in how you can move and what you can do. Fly-by attack gives you a generic standard action, which can be used to cast a spell, or activate a martial maneuver, or any number of things. But generally, they are both the same idea, and having both isn't all that useful.

But at least now I see, how I can ride-by from the sky effectively doing a flying charge (dive) and have my mount pounce, my rider attack and both of them continue flying out danger. That was what I wanted all along but I just could not understand the feats. Thank you very much for all the help. I might have more questions at a later time! :smallsmile:

[Troacctid]

Amusingly, by a strict reading of rules as written, you can't attack with a lance on a mounted charge. Because your mount is the one charging, the charge must end at first space the griffon can attack from. Griffons have 5-foot reach, so it must end adjacent to the target. Your attack occurs when movement ends. However, a lance is a reach weapon and can't attack adjacent enemies.

This is obviously not the intent of the rules (hence the rules referencing mounted charges with a lance), but it's one of those bits of rules interaction the writers didn't catch. I don't imagine any DM would ever rule that way, but I find it amusing.
You don't need to attack at the end of the mount's charge. You can make your lance attack at any point during the charge.

[Jack Mann]

You don't need to attack at the end of the mount's charge. You can make your lance attack at any point during the charge.

I stated that poorly. When I said "attack with a lance on a mounted charge," I meant "you cannot make a charge attack with a lance while mounted." That is, you cannot gain the benefits of the charge with a lance. To get the benefits of the charge, you must attack at the end of the charge. You are correct that you can make a normal attack (without the bonus to hit, or without the extra damage from the lance) at any point in the charge.

Given that they wrote in a special rule for damage with a lance on a charge, this is almost certainly not what they intended, and I doubt very much anyone runs it that way. It is, however, what the rules say if you follow them word-for-word.

[Troacctid]

I stated that poorly. When I said "attack with a lance on a mounted charge," I meant "you cannot make a charge attack with a lance while mounted." That is, you cannot gain the benefits of the charge with a lance. To get the benefits of the charge, you must attack at the end of the charge. You are correct that you can make a normal attack (without the bonus to hit, or without the extra damage from the lance) at any point in the charge.
You don't have to attack at the end of the charge to deal the extra damage.

[zergling.exe]

Amusingly, by a strict reading of rules as written, you can't attack with a lance on a mounted charge. Because your mount is the one charging, the charge must end at first space the griffon can attack from. Griffons have 5-foot reach, so it must end adjacent to the target. Your attack occurs when movement ends. However, a lance is a reach weapon and can't attack adjacent enemies.

This is obviously not the intent of the rules (hence the rules referencing mounted charges with a lance), but it's one of those bits of rules interaction the writers didn't catch. I don't imagine any DM would ever rule that way, but I find it amusing.

Another thing on this, you count as being in any square your mount occupies. So unless your mount is medium size or smaller, you are always 10 feet away from creatures adjacent to your mount if you need to be.

The problem does exist for medium mounts with small riders, but otherwise isn't much of an issue.

[Flickerdart]

Another thing on this, you count as being in any square your mount occupies.

No, you don't. You count as sharing your mount's space.

[zergling.exe]

No, you don't. You count as sharing your mount's space.

I've been looking for this rule for a while now, and am unable to find anything about either occupying your mount's squares or sharing them. Do you have a page reference for this? The only thing I've managed to dig up is a rules of the game article containing this line:

Likewise, you measure your reach for your melee attacks and the range for your ranged attacks from any square you and your mount jointly occupy.

Bolded leads me to the conclusion that you can attack adjacent foes with a reach weapon by using a square that is not adjacent.

[Flickerdart]

I've been looking for this rule for a while now, and am unable to find anything about either occupying your mount's squares or sharing them. Do you have a page reference for this?
For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat)



The only thing I've managed to dig up is a rules of the game article containing this line:


Bolded leads me to the conclusion that you can attack adjacent foes with a reach weapon by using a square that is not adjacent.

Rules of the Game is not, oddly enough, rules of the game.

[zergling.exe]

For simplicity, assume that you share your mount’s space during combat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat)



Rules of the Game is not, oddly enough, rules of the game.

So I'm wrong, I'll still use my interpretation as I think it makes more sense to be able to maneuver your mount around its space to be able to attack differently.

[Flickerdart]

So I'm wrong, I'll still use my interpretation as I think it makes more sense to be able to maneuver your mount around its space to be able to attack differently.

Good luck running figure-8s while charging at full kilter.