Gitp Dead Project

[Perducci]

This thread is for the discussion and designing of an Urban Dead-esque game that will be adapted to Pbp on this forum. This is a community project and anyone will be able to suggest changes and such.

Any and all suggestions will be welcome.

Things to Discuss:
Modern or Fantasty setting?
Use stock Urban Dead rules or not?
Map size and Layout
How to keep the Survivors outnumbered
Keeping it fun
(things will be added/removed from this list as things are brought up or resolved)

[Perducci]

Modern or Fantasy?

I think Gitp dead could go either way. Personally, I'd prefer it to be in a modern setting. The gameplay wouldn't be changed as much as it would if it were a fantasy setting. In a fantasy setting, you'd have to make a system of magic(which would probably have to be pretty limited), and military weapons wouldn't be much different than the things that commoners would be able to have.

Rules-
For a modern setting I say keep most of the rules. Little things could be added or changed, but for the most part keep it. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Maybe less AP points to compensate for the smaller map.

Map size and layout-
I'm thinking maybe 20x20 or so. The Survivor and Zombie "safe-zones" would be roughly opposite each other. More building in the center with woodland open areas on the outskirts.

How to keep Survivors outnumbered-
I say give the Zombie characters one main zombie ,who would be able to level up and learn skills, a few zombie followers who would be slightly weaker.

Those are my thoughts on those subjects...what about yours?

[heretic]

I vote modern.

[Poppatomus]

I think it would be interesting to do it in a magic free setting, but not a modern one.

[mauslin]

Modern. I think it should have some magic though.
I'd make the undead magic based, not scienced-based. It's too easy to kill scienced-based undead with logic.

[mikeejimbo]

I vote Modern Fantasy.

[Perducci]

OK its:
2 votes for Modern
2 votes for Modern with magic(I guess thats what modern fantasy means)
1 vote for non-Modern w/o magic

I guess Modern with magic would have cultists or something like that behind the zombie menace. I'm not sure what kind of magic would be good to have available. Don't want to overpower the magic users.

[TheLogman]

I vote for Modern Fantasy.

I also vote for more Ap points than Urban Dead, because although the map will be smaller, there will be fewer players too, and so in order to prevent people joining, spending all their points on move, and then getting bored and leaving, we should allow for more points, to have more player interaction. (Regardless of the type, violent or helpful)

[Perducci]

I don't think things like talking should take any action points at all. That would make it more RPable. I'm worried about having too many action points. It would be too easy for someone to run across the map, kill someone, and then make it back to their safezone. And I'm changing my vote to modern fantasy. I like the idea of a zombie cult causing the downfall.

4 Modern Fantasy
1 Modern
1 Non-modern without magic

[mikeejimbo]

Yeah, I think Modern Fantasy (or Modern with Magic, which I think would be fantasy) would be scarier in some ways. I also think that maybe good shouldn't get magic at all, like using magic corrupts you. It would also present three different types of characters: Civilians, Zombies, and Cultists. Certainly, factions would develop among these.

[Perducci]

My thoughts were headed that way. That way PKers could have a team to be on. I like the 'only cultists get magic' idea. Of course, I don't think they should be controlling the zombies at all. A classic backfire scenario. But that wouldn't prevent them from attacking the regular Survivors. I mean, I'm sure I'd hate to see all my work be destroyed too.

Any ideas on Cultist magic?

[firepup]

Modern fantasy. Stock rules for urban dead would be a little annoying to do PBP IMO.

[mikeejimbo]

I agree that the stock rules should be out.

As for magic for the cultists: We want it to be 'balanced' with the survivors and zombies, don't we? Also, survivors and cultists alike can be bitten by zombies and become zombies themselves, correct?

I think everyone should start out as a survivor, and if they want to, they can become a cultist, but it should be hard to do so, like you have to find a secret headquarters and go through occult initiation rites. Because that would be awesome. However, I think that you shouldn't be able to go back once you become one. Dun dun dunnnnn!

Also, I think the magic should be low powered, and require sacrifice of some sort. Or just a lot of AP. (If we're still using that)

[Perducci]

I'm not so sure we should throw the stock rules out. I think they should be more or less adapted. I don't want to lose the "feel" of Urban Dead What parts of the stock rules should be changed in your opinions?


Cultist should start as humans I agree. Maybe one player as a cultist to start though. To balance them, they should have to sacrafice some of their survivor skills or something. Maybe an HP cut. I don't think you should have to stay cultist forever, but changing back should have some penalties as well.
Cultist would turn to zombies just like anyone else.

Magic would be low power.

If we aren't using AP, then there has to be some way of regulating how much you can do in a day. I say keep AP.

[Poppatomus]

I feel like the cultist's magic needs to have a different dynamic then either of the two sides they are opposing. With the zombies you already have fairly formidable, very tough physical creatures, that will attack en masse and in the survivors you are going to have fairly wiley small groups with significant fire power. Whatever the character of the cultists and their powers, it should be as seperate from those as possible. (maybe significant individual power that actually diminishes as they group up, so that cultists are as much an enemy of other cultists as they are of the other two groups?) Even if i have the assesment of the general style of the other two groups wrong, i still think this dynamic should be applied.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Magicks could be bought as "Skills"
For example, the "Firebolt" Skill would give you an attack roughly equivilint to a crossbow shot, with a balance being in an increased AP cost (figured from rounds searching for ammuntion), and more skills to improve accuracy.

Example: (Using UrbanDead Pistol rules)
Crossbow Base: 5%
Basic Ranging: +25% Crossbow and Longbow accuracy
Advanced Crossbow Training: +25% Crossbow accuracy
Crossbow sniper: +5% Crossbow accuracy

Firebolt Base: 30% (you had to drop points into a skill to even GET the spell, so you're considered to have basic training)
Precise Firebolt: +25% Firebolt Accuracy
Exploding Firebolt: +5% Firebolt accuracy (to illustarte a small area explosion when the firebolt strikes something hard/arrives at the designated point)

Also, I'm going to vote for Mideval fantasy, becuase GitP is a mostly Mideval-themed site.

As for Classes, I'm thinking three tiers instead of two:
Human: Your non-spellslinger, but its the only set with access to skills like Construction.
Cultist: A variety of commoner-like skills at the cost of hiher AP to perform, the balance being no need to scrounge for ammo. These skills are considered magic
Zahmbez: Branz... (Er... just normal Zeds.)

[mikeejimbo]

I feel like the cultist's magic needs to have a different dynamic then either of the two sides they are opposing. With the zombies you already have fairly formidable, very tough physical creatures, that will attack en masse and in the survivors you are going to have fairly wiley small groups with significant fire power. Whatever the character of the cultists and their powers, it should be as seperate from those as possible. (maybe significant individual power that actually diminishes as they group up, so that cultists are as much an enemy of other cultists as they are of the other two groups?) Even if i have the assesment of the general style of the other two groups wrong, i still think this dynamic should be applied.

I agree with this, but I have another suggestion. Instead of the cultist's power being diminished in groups, there should be some sort of incentive for cultists to turn on each other, like if they kill another cultist they can use their body in a profane ritual that grants them more power.

Just a thought.

[Poppatomus]

I agree with this, but I have another suggestion. Instead of the cultist's power being diminished in groups, there should be some sort of incentive for cultists to turn on each other, like if they kill another cultist they can use their body in a profane ritual that grants them more power.

Just a thought.

I like that alot.

[thehothead]

Modern Fantasy. I think that the "bonus" for killing a fellow cultist should be a temporary one, to avoid untouchableness of a single character who instantly kills all other cultists.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I agree with this, but I have another suggestion. Instead of the cultist's power being diminished in groups, there should be some sort of incentive for cultists to turn on each other, like if they kill another cultist they can use their body in a profane ritual that grants them more power.

Just a thought.

~ By killing another member of the cultist faction, and perfoming the ritual required to turn them into a zomibe, you gain X-Y AP.
Such Zombieied cultists "stand up" immediatly and are placed outside a building if they were occupying one.

[Perducci]

I'm not so sure the cultists should gain power from killing other cultist. I think they should have to kill ANY human to gain power. Otherwise, that group would be screwed. They'd be getting killed by zombies, survivors, and each other. They'd be a self-defeating group.

[mikeejimbo]

I'm not so sure the cultists should gain power from killing other cultist. I think they should have to kill ANY human to gain power. Otherwise, that group would be screwed. They'd be getting killed by zombies, survivors, and each other. They'd be a self-defeating group.

That's a good point. The idea of them just having to kill humans is good, because that would still make it dangerous for them to group together, but at least the killing of humans would be split between cultists and survivors.

Also, I think that survivors shouldn't immediately be able to tell the difference between a cultist and another survivor. That would keep cultists from getting killed by survivors all the time, and also be scarier for the survivors, because they couldn't be sure that they could group with each other.

Additionally, if we go with that, there should be a skill survivors can get to identify cultists, but that it shouldn't be passive (or else everyone would get it and there wouldn't be that danger) but rather, when you use it, you identify who is a cultist in the area. Or possibly lesser information, like how many cultists are in the area. That would lead to 'witchhunts' which can be quite thrilling.

[Poppatomus]

That's a good point. The idea of them just having to kill humans is good, because that would still make it dangerous for them to group together, but at least the killing of humans would be split between cultists and survivors.

Also, I think that survivors shouldn't immediately be able to tell the difference between a cultist and another survivor. That would keep cultists from getting killed by survivors all the time, and also be scarier for the survivors, because they couldn't be sure that they could group with each other.

Additionally, if we go with that, there should be a skill survivors can get to identify cultists, but that it shouldn't be passive (or else everyone would get it and there wouldn't be that danger) but rather, when you use it, you identify who is a cultist in the area. Or possibly lesser information, like how many cultists are in the area. That would lead to 'witchhunts' which can be quite thrilling.

That would also work. The essential point, in my mind, is that there should be a difference between the way that cultists and survivors operate, not just in the means they use or the goals they possess. They shouldn't just be negative sprites.

Having the Cultists be powered by humanoids generally works (though it should probably be better for them to get other cultists) since it does provide that kind of dynamic shift in what it means to be a cultist vs. a normal survivor. it's not just you shoot a 1d6 shotgun and I shoot a 1d6 fireball, its that I'm trying to find team mates to help me stay alive and you're trying to find victims to help you stay stronger.

I agree completely with the idea that cultists should not be instantly identifiable, even to other cultists. Witchhunts are always fun.

[Perducci]

Good good. I don't think with the Cultist would play very much like regular survivors. I can see cultists running around with groups before killing them all. They'd be infiltrating the 'normals' and making life a pain for them. I agree that there should be a skill which enables you to identify how many cultists are in the immediate area. (Can anyone say Priest class?)

[Engineer]

Well, Here's my two cents:
I think that every human should have some sort of innate power in them that is magic. That is not to say that every human can cast magic, in fact most humans don't even realize theres magic. But there are a select few who do, and within those few there are two sides. The Cultists of Law those who are too afraid of the unknown, those who are afraid of what lies beyond the veil. To stop themselves from dieing they kill those who have magic to fuel there dark machinations. Then there are the believers of Chaos, those who willingly die and change and feel comfortable in Chaos. These two sides have fought a war for hundreds of generations, and the city of Wysyth in Wales is only one battlefield. But this battlefield is almost won for the Cultists of law. ( I suggest Wales cause it's isolated and more magicky than England)

Long ago in the time of druids and bards, heroes and chiefs a druid lived on what would one day become Wysyth. Three he fell prey to the forces of the cult and became obsessed with finding a way of unchanged. He did, but not in the fashion he intended. He discovered a way to bind magic to the dead making them walk and move, and sometimes even give them intelligence. He then bound this spell into a dragons skull (one of the most magically powerful items ever. There all dead now) and prepared to cast a cruse on the land making the dead rise. But he was stopped by the believers. In the battle the skull was lost deep into a cave, not to be found for 3000 years...

Today the city of Wysyth lies wasted. A faction of cultists discovered the skull and cast it's magic upon the land, turning all the dead in the city to the undead. The believers are disheartened for it takes much of their magic to turn the dead back to the living, the only way to save them. The Believers are in the open in the city, and all survivors know of them. But in the dark le the powers of the cult who hide and wait, and bide for the time when they can kill all humans and make themselves more powerful than ever, and save themselves from the grasp of death. And across the city the dead walk and the dead moan, for they are hungry. Welcome to Wysyth, home of the Urban Dead.

Now for crunch:
Cultists: When clicked on they are survivors of a class of their choosing, even while there actually a different class. Cultists have two classes groups of classes, Cultist Warrior and Cultist Magician. Cultists also can access civilian all human skills except chaos and in return get Law skills. And now for the Cultist Classes
Warrior: 75 points for Military skills, 100 points for Law skills, 125 points for civilian skills.
Vagabond:
Flak Jacket
Knife
Hand to Hand combat
The thieves, the wanderers, and the hopeless are recruited by the cult and then become Vagabonds. these are tough rowdy untrained warriors, armed with only a knife and armor provided by the cult.
Corrupted:
Shotgun
2 rounds of ammunition
Shotgun Training
Policemen, Firemen, Soldiers, those who were meant to protect us, now turn on us. Run For your life, for they are among us.
Ambusher
Axe
Binoculars
Hand To Hand combat.
Ambushers wait in the shadows, for others and then destroy them viciously. to gain their power.
Magician: 75 points for Law skills, 100 fo civilian, 125 for military
Destroyer:
Cult Evoker Amulet
Baseball Bat
Evoker magic
There are those cultists who seek order through chaos, life from death. These are the destroyers, who create order from the chaos of death and destruction. These are the direct threat but there far worse things then to die from the might of a Destroyer.
Corrupter
Cult poisonous Amulet
Poisoned First Aid Kit
Poison magic
Looking for help a the survivor stumbles into the hospital needing care. A nurse comes ands helps him, sending him back to the fight. But what he does not know is that he is now poisoned and unlucky. His attacks miss, he takes a lot of damage and dies. The Corrupter's poison the world slowly killing all those who oppose the cult.
Necromancer
Cult Dead Amulet
Control Staff
Death Magic
The Cult finds that those that are dead, but not are the perfect slaves and soldiers to carry out it;s work. Necromancers control this power.

Without Skills you may not cast any law magic.
Law Skills are the special skills of cultists and they have three branches;
Death Magic: Allows you to cast the spells (if you have a death amulet) Deathly Hand (Attack 30% 5 damage), Call Zombies (all zombies within a 3x3 area centered on the caster are compelled to come towards the caster), Create Zombie (5% ability if within a graveyard to create a zombie that follows your commands and then dies at after 25 actions), and Skeletal Eyes (30% Chance to paralyze a survivor or cultist for one round)
Enhanced deathly Hand (55% to hit)
Enhanced call Zombies (within a 5x5 square)
Enhanced Create Zombie (10%)
Enhanced Skeletal Eyes (55%)
Unnatural Strength: Cast on a zombie adds +2 to any attack. Lasts for 5 rounds
Unnatural Stamina: cast on a zombie subtracts 2 from any damage dealt to a zombie. Lasts for 5 rounds.
Poison Magic: Allows you to cast the spells (if you have an amulet) Ineffective healing (25% chance to make healing Ineffective from subject), Extra damage (causes -1 every round from a wound on subject), Bad Luck (-10% to any thing attempted with percentile chances), Fake Healing (requires poisoned First Aid kit, looks like healing is effective, but actually does 5 points of damage)
Enhanced Ineffective Healing (50%)
Enhanced Extra damage (-1,-2, -1)
Enhanced bad Luck (-20%)
Enhanced Fake Healing (10 points of damage)
Suck Magic (Sucks 2 action points from a subject)
paralyze (takes 4 action points from a subject)
Evoker Magic: Allows you to cast the spells (if you have an amulet), Fireball (20% chance, 7 damage), Magic Bolt (Always Hits, 1 damage), Collapse (5% Chance to collapse a ceiling, does 10 damage and paralyzes), and Pain (10% Chance to paralyze for three rounds)
Enhanced Fireball (40%)
Enhanced Magic Bolt (2 damage)
Enhanced Collapse (10%)
Pain (20%)

The Necrotech lab assistant is replaced with the Believer of Chaos.
Believer Staff
Book
Believer of Chaos
The opponents of those who hide from change
The Believer of law skill grants the ability to cast these spells (with a staff), detect Law taint (discovers cultist), Revive Zombie (10% chance to make a zombie human), Destroy Cultist (deals 1 damage to Cultist, or gets rid of any law spell effects), Inspire (+10% to all survivors in a square)
Enhanced detect law Taint (discovers any cultist in a square)
Enhanced Revive Zombie (25%)
Destroy Cultist (2 damage, or all law spell effects in a square)
Enhanced Inspire (20%)
Protection (no law spell effects the subject for 5 rounds)
Destroy Zombie (always hits deals 2 damage

[Perducci]

Wow that's all good. Not sure what everyone else thinks about it though. Those rules are all a bit detailed though. We're still in the stages of painting the big picture. Detail can come later.

I'm not sure about the whole cultist-controlling zombies. Maybe limited control but most certainly not total. That also seems pretty magic heavy. Which I oppose.

[Thanatos 51-50]

"Mundane" humans still need to have an "edge"
I'm thinking, like in Urbandead, there are different classes and sub-classes.
Focusing on the Mundane Humans, here.

Class: Commoner
Sub-Class: Rogue
Starts With: Stiletto, Low-power ranged weapon (longbow/pistol), one full reload for said weapon (Pistol clip/Quiver of Arrows)
Skills: Free-running

Sub-class: Fighter
Starts With: (Randomly chosen) Sword/Axe/Mace/Hammer, Low-level Armor, Field Medicine
Skills: Melee Training

Sub-Class: Merchant
Starts With: Field Medcine, Stiletto (Or low-power ranged weapon, not decided, yet), Radio (or equivilent)
Skills: Keen Eyes (Essentially a bonus to searching areas)

Additionally, all skills in the "Mundane" skill tree would be exclusive to all non-Mundanes, like how Survivor and Zombie skills treees cannot be accessed by the other side in UD. The Mundane Skill Tree would be split into Rogue, Fighter, and Merchant (Much like Civilian, Military, and Scientist)

I'm still trying to think of a way to convert from Mundane-Cultist and vice-versa (although non-zombie to zombie is relativly simple to fgure out)
As for Survivor-Zed transitions for Urban Dead, there is no Skill Point Compensation.

[Orzel]

Each group (magic, zombie, normals) would have their own strengths and weaknesses. Then each group would have subgroups that grant/take away more.

Normal: Your basic human. No magical allergies. Magic skills cost too much, making get more than a "light" spell very hard.
-Combat: Good with weapons and armors.
-Commoner: Good with environmental issues (construction, free running, secret passages..)
-Smart: Good with tech (computers, medical issues...)

Zombie: Scary, tough, and stupid. No access to normal or magic skills and can't use most weapons.
-Normal: Human zombie. Sharper claws. Stronger senses.
-Magic: Cultist zombie. Tails. more arms. acid breath. Wings.

Cultist: Your magic knowing human. Normal skills cost way to much to grab many.
-Basic: They are the "jedi guardians" of the city. Masters of the basic magic abilities to boost their normal skills.
-Ritual: Harder magic user. Big fireballs and illusions but can't throw a punch.

[Poppatomus]

So then the cultists are good guys? Not sure that works. If you're going to have them as a seperate faction, shouldn't they at least have different goals then the mundanes? even if the mundanes end up being the bad guys.

On that note, how about a 4th group, since we are in modern: the military. Survivors would be good skill/social wise, zombies zombies, cultists good with magic, and professionals great with weapons but bad otherwise. Let the Professionals divide evenly between survivors and cultists.

[mikeejimbo]

So then the cultists are good guys? Not sure that works. If you're going to have them as a seperate faction, shouldn't they at least have different goals then the mundanes? even if the mundanes end up being the bad guys.

I don't think we can really say "Cultists are the good guys" OR "Cultists are the bad guys." I know that in Urban Dead, for the most part the Survivors are the Good Guys and Zombies are the Bad Guys, but some Survivors are also PKers. I think that the cultists should be able to use their power to destroy/undermine Survivors, thereby gaining more power, or to aid the survivors (perhaps because they are repentant for having raised the zombies, or they became cultists after the zombies appeared in order to deal with them.)

[Poppatomus]

I don't think we can really say "Cultists are the good guys" OR "Cultists are the bad guys." I know that in Urban Dead, for the most part the Survivors are the Good Guys and Zombies are the Bad Guys, but some Survivors are also PKers. I think that the cultists should be able to use their power to destroy/undermine Survivors, thereby gaining more power, or to aid the survivors (perhaps because they are repentant for having raised the zombies, or they became cultists after the zombies appeared in order to deal with them.)

Right, which is what I understood. What I was referring to was the "jedi" characterization, which implies that they are good guys period.

I guess it also raises the question of where the zombies come from. I had been assuming that the cultists were at least partly responsible, but perhaps that's not the case. Also, does the "cult" itself hace a unified position, even if individual members choose their own paths?

[mikeejimbo]

Right, which is what I understood. What I was referring to was the "jedi" characterization, which implies that they are good guys period.

Yeah, I was agreeing with you.

I'm not sure about my position on the Military, though.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I vote Military should just be a branch of "normals".

Maybe three sub-classes of Cultist (Evoker, Necromancer, Transmuter) and three sub-classes of zeds (Hunter, Killer, Leader) as well

Going with modern-themed Normals:
Soldier
Thug
U-squared-C

[Poppatomus]

My reasoning is that the cultists represent a somewhat unified group with truly specialized knowledge and organization, while the survivors are going to be relativly disunified and lack specialized training. it would be nice if there was an alternative on the other side, a counterbalance to the more organized cultists. fluff wise I feel like, if you are going to put it in a mdoern setting, military/swat groups would be present fairly shortly after any kind of outbreak, and that if you take them out a certain element of modern gets lost.

[Perducci]

Whoa whoa whoa...ok not to put down all these ideas that seem to be flying around, but can we get a little organized?

I'm pretty sure that the majority of people favor Modern Fantasy? Before we start making up classes and things like that, we should figure out the general gist of the game.

I see some discussion about having 3 or 4 sides...seems to me to be the next topic to focus our discussion on. Thoughts?

I'd prefer 3 sides because it would be simpler and better if there are less players.

[Thanatos 51-50]

My vote:
I'm disgruntled by "Modern" era, but I'll deal with it.

Three factions:
Those responsible (The Cultists)
The Results (Zeds)
The Victims (Normals - we definatly need a better name for these guys)

It forms a nice, easy, balance skeleton as well.

[mikeejimbo]

My reasoning is that the cultists represent a somewhat unified group with truly specialized knowledge and organization, while the survivors are going to be relativly disunified and lack specialized training. it would be nice if there was an alternative on the other side, a counterbalance to the more organized cultists. fluff wise I feel like, if you are going to put it in a mdoern setting, military/swat groups would be present fairly shortly after any kind of outbreak, and that if you take them out a certain element of modern gets lost.

While you have a good point there, I thought we'd already said that the Survivors could organize, that was their strength, and the cultists needed to be different. Also, the lack of military/police/national guard action would be part of the horror. Maybe this city is the last one left in the world, eh?

[Perducci]

I think one of the Survivor(Normals/Victims/Whateever) classes would be a military/police class. I see the remnants of the military sheltering the other survivors in a bunker complex. The swat teams or whatever could sweep out into the street and lay down the smack, while the civilians support them.

[Poppatomus]

While you have a good point there, I thought we'd already said that the Survivors could organize, that was their strength, and the cultists needed to be different. Also, the lack of military/police/national guard action would be part of the horror. Maybe this city is the last one left in the world, eh?

That's a fair point, military might be better just as a sub-group, if that.

[Perducci]

Hmm...I say no military at all. Just have a Militia class for the Survivors.

So my vote is for 3 forces. Cultists, Normals, and Zombies.

[Thanatos 51-50]

That's a fair point, military might be better just as a sub-group, if that.


I vote Military should just be a branch of "normals".

Going with modern-themed Normals:
Soldier
Thug
U-squared-C

Somebody already brought that idea up. Trippy.

"Soldier" doesn't nessecarily say "military", either, it could be interpreted as Military or Militiamen. Purposefully loose language, there.

[Orzel]

The Jedi remark was based on the Strength and weakness of the normal vs the cultists aka "Normal's Edge". It's a jab at the old d20 SW, jedi had tons of force power but rarely many mundane skills.

Basically Normal are the rogue classes, Zombies the warriors, and Cultists the wizards. Normals can use tools and the environment to aid their survival. Zombies use brute force and supernatural ability to feed off victims. Cultist use magic to help and harm others.

Normals would have the stealth, detection, crafting, and weapon skills. Zombie would be overall best in combat but have several weakness. Cultists would lack most worldly knowledge but have fewer restrictions.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Heres the way I'm thinking it.

In many philosophies, the human soul is divided into three parts:
Body
Mind
Spirit

Zombies would obviously exemplify the "Body", being removed from physical needs, being stronger and deadlier unarmed than most humans, but their mind has been dulled from death and they cannot (initially) perfrom simple tasks (open doors, speak inteligably), buffs here would focus on Mind, and augment their already powerful Body.

Mundanes would be the Minds, the tacticans, they have no spell-casting ability (Spirit), and have less Body then the Dead. these guys can use otherwise worthless pieces of the enviroment and build fortresses (barricading). Buffs here would focus on mind (They can learn a little hocus-pocus, probably achieving no more than "basic" skill), and augment their Mind (Body - buffers give themselves to the zombies willingly to achieve "perfection")

Clutists fill the Spirit Gap. Strength of spirit is Strength of Life, and Magicks are Life. How better to make the Dead live than to use your own Strong Life-Force to raise the corpses? Buffs here would focus on Body (Hey, a physical world exists, too), and augment their already powerful Spirit.

I hope that makes sense.

[Orzel]

Heres the way I'm thinking it.

In many philosophies, the human soul is divided into three parts:
Body
Mind
Spirit

Zombies would obviously exemplify the "Body", being removed from physical needs, being stronger and deadlier unarmed than most humans, but their mind has been dulled from death and they cannot (initially) perfrom simple tasks (open doors, speak inteligably), buffs here would focus on Mind, and augment their already powerful Body.

Mundanes would be the Minds, the tacticans, they have no spell-casting ability (Spirit), and have less Body then the Dead. these guys can use otherwise worthless pieces of the enviroment and build fortresses (barricading). Buffs here would focus on mind (They can learn a little hocus-pocus, probably achieving no more than "basic" skill), and augment their Mind (Body - buffers give themselves to the zombies willingly to achieve "perfection")

Clutists fill the Spirit Gap. Strength of spirit is Strength of Life, and Magicks are Life. How better to make the Dead live than to use your own Strong Life-Force to raise the corpses? Buffs here would focus on Body (Hey, a physical world exists, too), and augment their already powerful Spirit.

I hope that makes sense.

That's similar to what I was suggesting

Zombies: Strong Base Body (better attacks)
-Monsters: + Body (combat and movement bonuses)
-Mutants: + Spirit (special abilities)

Normals: Strong Base Mind (stealth, crafting, identification)
-Military: + Body (better attacks)
-Science: + Mind (healing and tech)

Cultists: Strong Base Spirit (rule breaking)
-Sorcery: + Spirit (more "spells")
-Knowledge: + Mind (healing and identification)

[Thanatos 51-50]

That's similar to what I was suggesting

Zombies: Strong Base Body (better attacks)
-Monsters: + Body (combat and movement bonuses)
-Mutants: + Spirit (special abilities)

Normals: Strong Base Mind (stealth, crafting, identification)
-Military: + Body (better attacks)
-Science: + Mind (healing and tech)

Cultists: Strong Base Spirit (rule breaking)
-Sorcery: + Spirit (more "spells")
-Knowledge: + Mind (healing and identification)

Not how I was looking at the secondary skillsets, but I think yours makes more sense then mine.

Just to be clear, I'm not intending the whole Body/Mind/Spirit Matrix to be actual ability scores, but a baseline for devolpment. We're not wroking on Kingdom of Loathing, here.

[Orzel]

No. Of course no actual stats.

Just different trees and their costs.

For example, a military human gets the skills on the Normal Body tress (Firearms, Hand to Hand, etc) for cheap, pays regular price for Normal Mind Skill trees (Construction), but pays more for Advanced Normal Mind Skill trees (Healing Hacking) and a lot more for Cultist skills.

[Binary Stars]

I put my vote in for modern fantasy with very little magic. Also, I had an idea. What if rather than the opposing sides being Zombies V. Humans (V. Cultists), what if it was Average Joes V. Cultists. AJ's would have skills to help defend themselves and fight against the zombies and cultists, while the cultists could have skills to infiltrate and undermine the survivors, in addition to cross-class skills and the ability perform some kind of ritual suicide and come back to life as zombies. Effectively, you would create a 2.5-sided war. Otherwise, the only way to become a zombie would to either die and be killed and/or have your corpse feasted upon by a zombie or possibly sacrificed by a cultist. You could keep non-cultists zombies from just keeping up the good fight dead by limiting zombie skills available to regular humans, maybe adding some penalties like slower movement than evil zombies, or an inability to tell the difference between humans and other zombies. The only problems with that is coming back to life if you just plain died. Maybe have some sort of base at the far end that will enable anyone to come back to life if they die, sort of like shamans in Shartak, which was based on UD.

[Engineer]

Yeah mine was probably too detailed. I got carried away. I still think that we should try to change the individual UD classes as least as possible. I only vote that we replace Necrotech assistant with some kind of anti-cultist class, and that we create only skills for magic and classes for cultists. Also Cultist=/=orginized. Survivor=Orginized. Cultist=PKer. That is all.

[Korias]

Ok.

Heres how I see it.

The Setting should be something similar to Dark Horse's Hellgate, where its a combo of both magical and scientific warfare. So Modern+Fantasy for the setting.

Classes. I believe that in the realm of classes, we need to Have 9 Classes:
3 Survivor Classes
3 Zombie (Zed) Classes
3 Cultist Classes

Now, lets break it into DND.

Survivor Classes:
Rogue (Civilians)
Ranger/Fighter (Military)
Cleric(NTs/Meds)

Zombie Classes:
Fighter (Specialization)
Monk (Unarmed Damage)
Barbarian (Rage)

Cultist Classes
Cleric (Duh)
Sorceror (Demon Child)
Wizard (Trained Cultist)

Now, We cal also add the Commoner (Consumer) and the Adept (Apprentice Cultist, Magically Attuned Good Guy) to the mix.

[Perducci]

I agree with Engineer. We shouldn't be messing with UD's base classes that much. We aren't trying to come up with a completely different game.

Ugh...I most certainly don't want to see this turned into zombie DnD.

I see the classes like this:

Survivors-
Militia(Military)
Commoner(Civilian)
Anti-Cultist(Necrotech)... I see these guys as being priests

Zombie-
Zombie...
Mutant(I see these guys as having the power to control several zombies)

Cultist-
Cultist

I realize that Cultist and Zombies don't have matching classes to the survivors, but instead of picking a class, they should just be able to pick their starting skills and items. This would give the players more customization in their characters.

[Engineer]

Ugh...I most certainly don't want to see this turned into zombie DnD.
Agreed.


I see the classes like this:

Survivors-
Militia(Military)
Commoner(Civilian)
Anti-Cultist(Necrotech)... I see these guys as being priests
I think we should keep the normal human classes of UD, except fro the ati-cultists who should have special skills that do magic and detect cultists.


Zombie-
Zombie...
Mutant(I see these guys as having the power to control several zombies)
Then why wouldt anyone choose anything but mutant? They need a drawback. Also I think they should be zombies raised specifically by a Cultist, instead of being your average zombie that just came back.


Cultist-
Cultist
I think there should be maybe three cultist classes. Looking back at my previous work I realize I needed to make a infiltrator class, who specializes in apearing normal and slowly killing a group of surviviors.


I realize that Cultist and Zombies don't have matching classes to the survivors, but instead of picking a class, they should just be able to pick their starting skills and items. This would give the players more customization in their characters.
I disagree. I rather liked UD's system.
of course I am but one, so I only ask you consider my propositions.

[Perducci]

You may be right about all that. I think keeping regular UD classes would be fine. The difference between Zombie and Mutant was to be that should your human character die, they would become a zombie. If you were a cultist who died or someone who chose to start as a zed, you could chose to be a mutant. They would have a drawback, but that can be worked out later.

[mikeejimbo]

I don't know about you guys, but there's one thing I don't like about UD's class system: Everyone can get all the skills. There really isn't much variation among the survivors, because by now most of them have all the skills, too.

[Engineer]

I don't know about you guys, but there's one thing I don't like about UD's class system: Everyone can get all the skills. There really isn't much variation among the survivors, because by now most of them have all the skills, too.
What would yuo prefer? i'm open to anything.

[Perducci]

You touched a note. I was thinking the same thing. That really bothers me. Higher level characters are all the same. The skill trees should be somewhat exclusive to the others. A regular joe shmoe isn't going to be able to perform advanced lab techniques or be able to fire a pistol with amazing accuracy(at least in comparison to other joe shmoes).

[Orzel]

A way to avoid this is to lengthen the skill trees and making generalizing expensive.

For example a UD military survivor specializing in a weapon has a 3 step skill tree for each firearm and 2 step for each melee. A GUD military survivor would have a 5-7 step skill tree to deal with.

Also grabbing skill outside of your specialization would be more expensive. Instead of 75XP/125XP, it could be 50XP/150XP.

[mikeejimbo]

I think there should also be a cap to the skills that you can get outside of your specialization. Like, unless you're in the military, you can't get more than 30% accuracy with a pistol. (As a for-instance)

[Thanatos 51-50]

How about just class-specifc skill trees?
There would obviously be some overlap, say with pistol accuracy, but as a soldier there are about five steps to the skill tree, whereas with a thug there are three, and a scientist, there are two.
Likewise, a soldier gets three steps to a melee combat tree, whereas a thug gets five and a scinetist gets two (Yeah, I'm going for the cliche, scientists can't fight)
However, scientists can get a longer skill tree for healing/using lab equipment.

Likewise, different breeds of cultists can access certain spells others can't.
Necro/Biomancers would have access to healing spells, whereas Evokers would be packin' the fireballs.

[mikeejimbo]

How about just class-specifc skill trees?
There would obviously be some overlap, say with pistol accuracy, but as a soldier there are about five steps to the skill tree, whereas with a thug there are three, and a scientist, there are two.
Likewise, a soldier gets three steps to a melee combat tree, whereas a thug gets five and a scinetist gets two (Yeah, I'm going for the cliche, scientists can't fight)
However, scientists can get a longer skill tree for healing/using lab equipment.

Likewise, different breeds of cultists can access certain spells others can't.
Necro/Biomancers would have access to healing spells, whereas Evokers would be packin' the fireballs.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. :smallsmile:

[Engineer]

How many skill trees do we want. One for each class? One for each type?

[Orzel]

I'd say 3-4 per subclass

Survivors-
Military (Melee, Ranged, FR)
Civilian (Shopping, Construction, Items, Stealth)
Anti-Cultist/Science (Tech, Healing, Anti-Magic)

Zombie-
Zombie (Combat, Scent, Eating)
Mutant (Movement, Communication, Zombie Control)

Cultist-
Cultist (Attack spells, Zombie Spells, Survivor Spells, Utility Spells)

[firepup]

Because I hate to see colored sides, I'm going to suggest not changing the classes much. change what needs to be magical to work in the time period to such.

[Perducci]

Yeah, we shouldn't changes classes much as I've said. I do think the skills need to be revamped so we don't have a bunch of identical characters running around. As for the skills tree, keep them basically the same(we could add new skills later if needed). Just make it so certain classes can't access some of the skills.

[Engineer]

Well I rather liked my magic for the cultidtd. Could we use that for their magic with suggestions obviously.

[Perducci]

I meant same classes for normals.

The new stuff will be for the cultists mostly and a bit for the undead.