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Elricaltovilla
2016-06-14, 03:30 PM
They say love conquers all, love can make you psycho, love can redeem you... it seems to be one of those universal forces that can affect anyone, regardless of alignment. So I'm curious, how would you portray each of the different alignments and their reactions to love, or how they would attempt to win the affections of their beloved?

BWR
2016-06-14, 03:43 PM
CE- well, we remember how Strahd went about it....

For less extreme examples, I tend to assume that people can be horrible monsters towards certain groups but be likeable and kind towards people they like. So any alignment might very well have romantic, dedicated partners. It's just that the good ones will not treat their loved ones like **** while evil ones may do so.

Duke_Daisuke
2016-06-14, 04:23 PM
i imagine that LG would take a very traditional route like courting, flowers and try to show a great deal of respect. Might initially come off as very stiff?

bulbaquil
2016-06-14, 04:30 PM
i imagine that LG would take a very traditional route like courting, flowers and try to show a great deal of respect. Might initially come off as very stiff?

LN as well. LE as well, for that matter, but in that case it would likely involve some stealthy yet legal undermining of other potential suitors.

Duke_Daisuke
2016-06-14, 04:36 PM
LN as well. LE as well, for that matter, but in that case it would likely involve some stealthy yet legal undermining of other potential suitors.

Agreed I think the main difference in the lawfuls is how they would react to other potential suitors.

veti
2016-06-14, 04:45 PM
I think E alignments generally would be much more possessive than G, more inclined to see "love" as some kind of property right (LE) or justification for extreme actions (CE).

G "love" is selfless. To love someone is not merely a feeling, but a process - the process of internalising a part of that person's soul. It's necessarily selfless, because you have to displace a small part of your own soul to make room - and thereafter, there will always be a part of you that is programmed to think, feel and react as your beloved would, rather than purely on your own behalf.

No-Kill Cleric
2016-06-14, 06:33 PM
I think Evil love would be desperately doing things for the sake of the person in question. It could spiral into obsession or still float as a "normal" relationship.

I just imagine a hulking bruiser assassin who thoroughly enjoys his work, but has a wife and kids at home where all seems normal. He may get a thrill out of murder, but he still loves his wife to no end.

Or the evil spiral of "i destroyed this village after someone insulted you" or "I joined a succubus cult so I could be a better lover to you." Charming or terrifying, depending on the significant other's alignment.

Dire Roc
2016-06-14, 08:11 PM
For the lawful alignments I see honor and courtly love as mentioned above, whereas the chaotic alignments might tend more towards free spirits, and find an application for the... passion... the alignment is known for. Good would likely be more of a "I won't let anything bad happen to her/him." Whereas evil would tend more towards, "Back off, mine." Essentially the emphasis on the other or on the self.

PersonMan
2016-06-15, 02:25 AM
I'd say it's determined more by the character than their alignment. As has been mentioned before, Evil characters can be very kind and loving to some people while also being terrible to others. Two LG characters, even two Paladins, can approach love/romance/sex in rather different ways.

One might see it as something to avoid, potentially taking a vow to never take a lover in order to spare any long-term relationship from the grief of their potential early demise fighting Evil and to keep themselves from ever having to choose between love and duty.

Another may see physical affection as a way to make people happy, making sure their lovers know that they're going to be leaving again in the morning and will probably never return.

Similarly, a Lawful Evil slavemaster could feel a deep affection for a favored slave and keep them in a gilded cage, surrounding them with defenses meant to both keep them safe and keep them imprisoned, while a bureaucrat who relentlessly works to maximize the output of an imperial mine and writes off dozens of lives as "the cost of success" may come home to a family they adore and treat well no matter what happens.

Florian
2016-06-15, 04:31 AM
Interesting question.

I think that the more lawful types will generally see love as a thing that must be cultivated and will develop over time, like, say, a LN Samurai entering into a politically arranged marriage and growing into actually loving the spouse later on.
The more chaotic types will mostly be the love at first sight and hot burning passion types that act on emotions, right here and now. A, say, CN Swashbuckler will see a possible spouse and instantly try to woo and court him or her.

The good-evil axis is a bit less spectacular, as itīs more about the balance of giving and taking.

Democratus
2016-06-15, 07:20 AM
Alignment is how you treat people who aren't close to you.

Any alignment can be loving and open to someone they care about.

Themrys
2016-06-15, 08:30 AM
I think Tarquin from OotS is a pretty good example of how LE people love ... or don't. He seems to be a male supremacist and therefore incapable of loving women (even though one of his wives was apparently killed by Vaarsuvius, there are others ...) and his "love" for his sons ... yeah, well, he must have known that Elan would not be thrilled by this "burning slaves in a way that spells Elan's name" thing.



Any alignment can be loving and open to someone they care about.

Can. But in real life, one can often observe that really evil people are not able to truly love anyone but themselves, and that what they think of as love is merely possessiveness.


Now, if you define as "in love" the hormonal state of having fallen in love, then that is another thing. Evil people can have that brain chemistry reaction. But it seems to tend to make them even more evil, possessive, and prone to murder the person they "love".

Strigon
2016-06-15, 09:01 AM
(Note: Just for simplicity's sake, I'm going to have to use pronouns at some point. I'm going to assume a male, heterosexual falling in love to prevent things from getting muddled with too many "they"s or alternating genders between examples.)
(Note: Also for simplicity's sake, I'm going to assume these alignments are sticking within their respective boundaries. It's very possible for a LE character, for example, to genuinely behave LG toward those he loves. This depends on the character. I'm simply pointing out how it would go if they behaved according to their alignment 100% of the time.)

LG - As a "Good" character, naturally self-sacrificing. As a "Lawful" character, traditional and orderly. I think this sort of person would carefully consider all their options, and looking thoroughly how each would affect the recipient, not just his chances. Would undoubtedly become very protective, but would also likely accept whatever decision she made.
Paladins may have a fair chance of falling, due to placing her safety over that of the greater good. Many may resist this, but it's worth noting.
When actually courting, would be the perfect gentleman, ensuring she was always aware and approving of where the relationship was headed. Might seek permission from those who know her best before pursuing a relationship, and might be completely unnoticeable before he decides to make his intentions known.
If he can't have a relationship, will be content with her being happy. As long as she was genuinely happy, any personal hurt feelings would be kept to himself

NG - Likely to be extremely kind and upfront. Would probably seek her affections in a respectful, yet fairly direct way - gifts, spending time, et cetera. As before, likely would allow for other suitors to have a say, but more likely to speak up for himself and try to prove himself the better option.
When courting, would be very kind and open, actively seeking his interests while paying attention to hers. Would likely pick activities and locations tailored to her tastes, and genuinely try to enjoy them. Might seek advice from those who knew her best, while permission would likely depend on the culture.
If he can't have a relationship, would likely attempt to remain in her life in a smaller way, even if only to make sure she was faring well.

CG - Very direct, though perhaps not in an obnoxious or offensive way. Would attempt to prove his worth and win her favour, but would ultimately let her make up her own mind. Unless strongly rejected and told off, may try again as long as she's single, always trying to please her. May resent other suitors, but unlikely to actively harm them or their plans, knowing that doing so would only result in her being unable to make a fair decision. Likely fiercely defensive, possibly to the point of falling to CN if pushed too far or often.
When courting, would likely be spontaneous and taking charge, but considering her input. Unlikely to ask permission, preferring for her to make her own choice, though might consult close friends for advice/assistance.
If he can't have a relationship, might get sour towards any who did court her, but attempt to seek her favour and best interests despite this.

LN - Seeker of fair play. Seeks to genuinely win her heart, but would allow other suitors to have their chance. Would likely try to outdo them, rather than submit to sabotage. Very likely to seek both permission and advice. Would strive for her happiness - ideally with him.
When courting, would strive to reach his own goals while keeping her happy. Might have trouble being spontaneous or creative, but might not.
If he can't have a relationship, would likely retreat, rethink, and perhaps find another beloved.

N - Many ways this could go about, but I'm picturing the stereotypical lovesick boy. Attempts at flattery, gifts, and any possible way to make her want to be around him (excluding overtly Evil acts, of course.) Might attempt to directly dissuade her from courting others, but in such a way that she knows exactly what he's doing. Things like directly outdoing competitors, or mentioning ways in which he is superior.
When courting, constantly striving for a strong relationship, one where they're both content.
If he can't have a relationship, might stop trying obviously, while considering options quietly.

CN - Quite likely to be very direct and open - not just about his intentions, but about who he was. While others may seek to appear their best possible self, he would likely say "this is who I am - do you want to date me or not?". This isn't to say he wouldn't take any measures to appear kind or attractive, but those measures would be genuine - showing her the best aspects of who he naturally is. Might seek to undermine competitors, but only those who were genuinely bothering her.
When courting, would make sure she knows what's going on and where the relationship is headed. He'd seek his own interests, but let her make her own choices as to whether those interests were something she sought as well.
If he can't have a relationship, might sour toward both her and her suitors, or maybe just her suitors, or maybe neither. Depends on the exact character. Might simply shrug it off and move on to the next one.

LE - Ooh, I expect you'll get plenty of information on this one... Let me take a stab, though. I'm imagining a very possessive nature. He would seek a relationship - ideally one where she was very happy and content, but not necessarily. Would likely start with a traditional plan, but might delve further and further into unsavoury things if that doesn't go well. Might go through elabourate ruses or misdirections to appear better, or make others appear worse. Wouldn't be above... removing some competition, in one way or another depending on exactly how Evil we're talking. Would likely have a plan, and that plan is to get what he wants.
When courting, would strive to make her happy, but in the end only wants his own happiness. Would ideally like her to enjoy herself, but that's not a necessity.
If he can't have a relationship, expect a revenge plot. This could be either along the lines of "if I can't have her, nobody can", or "She will be mine, no matter the cost."
All in all, I'm thinking something along the lines of The Phantom of the Opera, or - for a less Evil character - Gregory House.

NE - This is the sort of person who would try to do things the right way, make her happy, and seek out a good relationship, but that wouldn't stay for very long. As things don't go his way, he moves to underhanded - if not downright Evil - attempts to take away her choice in the matter.
While courting, would behave the same way. "As long as you make me happy, I'll keep you happy. So make sure to keep me happy."
Wouldn't take rejection well, but might move on faster than LE. Don't expect a gracious resignation, but he'll have other matters to tend to, so just stay away and you'll be fine.

CE - A true nightmare. Lies, tricks, underhanded motives. You wouldn't want to share affections for a lady with him. Whatever it takes for him to get his way, that's what he'll do.
While courting, I'm picturing a very possessive nature - may or may not try to keep her happy, but will definitely try to keep her. All of the Evils have a chance to get psychologically or emotionally abusive, but this has the highest chance.
If rejected, expect immediate feedback of the negative sort. Might then move on, or get hung up - and if he gets hung up, things will not go well for anyone.

Democratus
2016-06-15, 09:12 AM
Can. But in real life, one can often observe that really evil people are not able to truly love anyone but themselves, and that what they think of as love is merely possessiveness.

That's sociopathy you are describing, not evil. Also...D&D is not real life.

Evil characters can form a party, protect and care for each other, and even form loving relationships. In much the same way that a Neutral character can go out of their way to protect someone they care about - but their alignment means they won't stick their neck out for strangers if there is personal risk. In the same way that a Lawful Good character can always go out of their way to protect innocent strangers yet be a cold, disciplinarian and distant father; to the point of causing emotional trauma to the children.

All alignments refer to the way a character interacts with the world at large - not how they conduct their interpersonal relationships.

Elricaltovilla
2016-06-15, 09:14 AM
(Note: Just for simplicity's sake, I'm going to have to use pronouns at some point. I'm going to assume a male, heterosexual falling in love to prevent things from getting muddled with too many "they"s or alternating genders between examples.)
(Note: Also for simplicity's sake, I'm going to assume these alignments are sticking within their respective boundaries. It's very possible for a LE character, for example, to genuinely behave LG toward those he loves. This depends on the character. I'm simply pointing out how it would go if they behaved according to their alignment 100% of the time.)

LG - As a "Good" character, naturally self-sacrificing. As a "Lawful" character, traditional and orderly. I think this sort of person would carefully consider all their options, and looking thoroughly how each would affect the recipient, not just his chances. Would undoubtedly become very protective, but would also likely accept whatever decision she made.
Paladins may have a fair chance of falling, due to placing her safety over that of the greater good. Many may resist this, but it's worth noting.
When actually courting, would be the perfect gentleman, ensuring she was always aware and approving of where the relationship was headed. Might seek permission from those who know her best before pursuing a relationship, and might be completely unnoticeable before he decides to make his intentions known.
If he can't have a relationship, will be content with her being happy. As long as she was genuinely happy, any personal hurt feelings would be kept to himself

NG - Likely to be extremely kind and upfront. Would probably seek her affections in a respectful, yet fairly direct way - gifts, spending time, et cetera. As before, likely would allow for other suitors to have a say, but more likely to speak up for himself and try to prove himself the better option.
When courting, would be very kind and open, actively seeking his interests while paying attention to hers. Would likely pick activities and locations tailored to her tastes, and genuinely try to enjoy them. Might seek advice from those who knew her best, while permission would likely depend on the culture.
If he can't have a relationship, would likely attempt to remain in her life in a smaller way, even if only to make sure she was faring well.

CG - Very direct, though perhaps not in an obnoxious or offensive way. Would attempt to prove his worth and win her favour, but would ultimately let her make up her own mind. Unless strongly rejected and told off, may try again as long as she's single, always trying to please her. May resent other suitors, but unlikely to actively harm them or their plans, knowing that doing so would only result in her being unable to make a fair decision. Likely fiercely defensive, possibly to the point of falling to CN if pushed too far or often.
When courting, would likely be spontaneous and taking charge, but considering her input. Unlikely to ask permission, preferring for her to make her own choice, though might consult close friends for advice/assistance.
If he can't have a relationship, might get sour towards any who did court her, but attempt to seek her favour and best interests despite this.

LN - Seeker of fair play. Seeks to genuinely win her heart, but would allow other suitors to have their chance. Would likely try to outdo them, rather than submit to sabotage. Very likely to seek both permission and advice. Would strive for her happiness - ideally with him.
When courting, would strive to reach his own goals while keeping her happy. Might have trouble being spontaneous or creative, but might not.
If he can't have a relationship, would likely retreat, rethink, and perhaps find another beloved.

N - Many ways this could go about, but I'm picturing the stereotypical lovesick boy. Attempts at flattery, gifts, and any possible way to make her want to be around him (excluding overtly Evil acts, of course.) Might attempt to directly dissuade her from courting others, but in such a way that she knows exactly what he's doing. Things like directly outdoing competitors, or mentioning ways in which he is superior.
When courting, constantly striving for a strong relationship, one where they're both content.
If he can't have a relationship, might stop trying obviously, while considering options quietly.

CN - Quite likely to be very direct and open - not just about his intentions, but about who he was. While others may seek to appear their best possible self, he would likely say "this is who I am - do you want to date me or not?". This isn't to say he wouldn't take any measures to appear kind or attractive, but those measures would be genuine - showing her the best aspects of who he naturally is. Might seek to undermine competitors, but only those who were genuinely bothering her.
When courting, would make sure she knows what's going on and where the relationship is headed. He'd seek his own interests, but let her make her own choices as to whether those interests were something she sought as well.
If he can't have a relationship, might sour toward both her and her suitors, or maybe just her suitors, or maybe neither. Depends on the exact character. Might simply shrug it off and move on to the next one.

LE - Ooh, I expect you'll get plenty of information on this one... Let me take a stab, though. I'm imagining a very possessive nature. He would seek a relationship - ideally one where she was very happy and content, but not necessarily. Would likely start with a traditional plan, but might delve further and further into unsavoury things if that doesn't go well. Might go through elabourate ruses or misdirections to appear better, or make others appear worse. Wouldn't be above... removing some competition, in one way or another depending on exactly how Evil we're talking. Would likely have a plan, and that plan is to get what he wants.
When courting, would strive to make her happy, but in the end only wants his own happiness. Would ideally like her to enjoy herself, but that's not a necessity.
If he can't have a relationship, expect a revenge plot. This could be either along the lines of "if I can't have her, nobody can", or "She will be mine, no matter the cost."
All in all, I'm thinking something along the lines of The Phantom of the Opera, or - for a less Evil character - Gregory House.

NE - This is the sort of person who would try to do things the right way, make her happy, and seek out a good relationship, but that wouldn't stay for very long. As things don't go his way, he moves to underhanded - if not downright Evil - attempts to take away her choice in the matter.
While courting, would behave the same way. "As long as you make me happy, I'll keep you happy. So make sure to keep me happy."
Wouldn't take rejection well, but might move on faster than LE. Don't expect a gracious resignation, but he'll have other matters to tend to, so just stay away and you'll be fine.

CE - A true nightmare. Lies, tricks, underhanded motives. You wouldn't want to share affections for a lady with him. Whatever it takes for him to get his way, that's what he'll do.
While courting, I'm picturing a very possessive nature - may or may not try to keep her happy, but will definitely try to keep her. All of the Evils have a chance to get psychologically or emotionally abusive, but this has the highest chance.
If rejected, expect immediate feedback of the negative sort. Might then move on, or get hung up - and if he gets hung up, things will not go well for anyone.





This is pretty fantastically put together. Nice work!

Strigon
2016-06-15, 09:25 AM
This is pretty fantastically put together. Nice work!

Thanks; I spent quite a bit of time on it!
As for how accurate it is, I cannot say, as my experience is only based on one member of one alignment - the rest is all guesswork.

Red Fel
2016-06-15, 09:28 AM
As something of an expert on the subject of Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448542-Compliance-Will-Be-Rewarded-A-Guide-to-Lawful-Evil), I'd like to chime in on that particular alignment. I won't waste my time with the rest, as all non-LE alignments are clearly beneath me.

First, let me say that I agree with almost every post so far on that subject. Evil love is possessive and strange; it is obsessive and protective to the extreme. It is competitive and vicious at times, and Evil is fiercely defensive of its emotions.

All that said, I will disagree with one post.


Can. But in real life, one can often observe that really evil people are not able to truly love anyone but themselves, and that what they think of as love is merely possessiveness.

Love is generally selfless. And selflessness is generally a G value, not an E value. That said, E can experience love. It may not understand it fully, and it may be unable to express it the same way.

Consider, for example, David Xanatos, from the Gargoyles animated series. When proposing to Fox:

Xanatos: Marry me.
Fox: Are you serious?
Xanatos: We're genetically compatible, highly intelligent, and have the same goals.
Fox: True. But what about love?
Xanatos: I think we love each other, as much as two people such as ourselves are capable of that emotion.
Later, in that same episode, when forced to rely on the Gargoyles to save Fox:


Xanatos: So, now you know my weakness.
Goliath: Only you would regard love as a weakness.
That's the point. Evil loathes weakness - in others and in itself. But Smart Evil (as opposed to caricatures) recognizes that sometimes you engage in a gambit - risk a valuable piece to gain a thing of greater value, expose a weakness to acquire something of importance. To Evil in love, love is that thing of greater value, that something of importance.

Here's something I wrote on the subject:

Love, like friendship, isn't completely alien to Lawful Evil, but it is a challenge. Being in love means opening yourself up to great pain. Lawful Evil characters bask in their power, and the protection it offers them, but it is much easier to protect yourself than to protect someone else, particularly someone with an independent and sometimes disobedient mind. There are many ways that Lawful Evil can address this concern, some disturbing, some heartwarming.

For example, one demonstration of love could be overprotection that borders on slavery. Think of how the uber-paranoid TO-level Wizard protects his spellbook. That spellbook is the most important thing in the world to him. It's the source of his power and his greatest weakness. Now, imagine that the spellbook was a person. This form of love is embodied by the Witch in Rapunzel (or Into the Woods), who expresses love and a desire to protect her loved one by sealing her away in a tower far from anybody else. Another method amounts to using mind control to turn the loved one into an obedient and easily protected puppet, although this is frequently followed with a "What have I done?" realization.

Another demonstration, and a particularly cheery one, is the idea of loving someone as they are. This is particularly true when Lawful Evil falls in love with an opposing alignment, such as Lawful Good or Chaotic Good, but can be equally true of Lawful Evil and Lawful Evil. The beautiful thing about this relationship is that it enables the Lawful Evil character to truly appreciate the other's merits, even if they stem from a different mindset. Now, this character will still demonstrate his love in a way fitting of his alignment; the Prince will use shows of force and wealth, the Bureaucrat will bend the rules in his beloved's favor from time to time, the Dark Knight will dive headfirst into the Hells. And if his love is threatened, his fury will destroy kingdoms.

Again, a way to turn love into tragedy is to show consequences. Lawful Evil characters make enemies. Sometimes Lawful Evil must choose between love and victory. And depending on how thoroughly you've humanized the character, you may see surprising outcomes.

One of my favorite illustrations is the LE who treats his loved ones in a relatively human, humane manner. Affection, warmth, and a fair amount of luxury, but no imprisonment or mind control or anything like that. (Perhaps a bodyguard or three.) On the other hand, his form of protection is disproportionate retaliation and deterrence. He will burn entire nations to the ground to protect her. He will slaughter entire families because one person looked askance at her. If she is kidnapped, if she is killed, he will recover her body and raise her from the dead, but the torments to which he will subject the entire world will leave scars on their souls that will make the gods themselves weep in fear and disgust.

Evil loves the same way Evil lives - with an all-consuming passion and drive that spares nothing, and no-one. Just as Evil devotes itself wholly to its goals, so to does Evil devote itself wholly to love.

Elricaltovilla
2016-06-15, 09:49 AM
I was waiting for you to show up Red. As usual, nicely done. You've got a real insight into the mind of Lawful Evil.

Strigon
2016-06-15, 09:49 AM
...
Evil loves the same way Evil lives - with an all-consuming passion and drive that spares nothing, and no-one. Just as Evil devotes itself wholly to its goals, so to does Evil devote itself wholly to love.
...

I wrote almost an entire page and I somehow glossed over the whole idea of an Evil person experiencing real, in many cases Earth-shattering love. The idea of "this person is under my protection - more so than anything or anyone in the universe, you do not. Screw. With them.

AMFV
2016-06-15, 09:51 AM
Actually a really good discussion of this can be found in the BoEF, which is pretty much one of the only things that's not completely horrible in that book. They discuss different alignments responses to love and sex, in a pretty decent way actually. That and the pregnancy tables are really the only things I've found useful at all from that book.

Red Fel
2016-06-15, 10:20 AM
I was waiting for you to show up Red. As usual, nicely done. You've got a real insight into the mind of Lawful Evil.

Always a service to be of pleasure, chief.


I wrote almost an entire page and I somehow glossed over the whole idea of an Evil person experiencing real, in many cases Earth-shattering love. The idea of "this person is under my protection - more so than anything or anyone in the universe, you do not. Screw. With them.

For what it's worth, I really enjoyed your thoughts. They did a wonderful job of painting each alignment's affections differently. I could see it in my all-seeing mind's eye of Sauron.

But in my mind, the idea of love - true, selfless, all-encompassing love - is a universal thing. Anyone can experience it. What differs is how they express it. And sure, some people can experience loveish emotions, affections and obsessions and the like, but those aren't really love. At best, they're passion; at worst, mental illness. (Some might call love a mental illness as well, but they don't usually write hit songs.) But love - real love - is something anyone can feel, and to describe it as anything less than a deep emotional desire to see another person happy and safe, anything less than a feeling of warmth and fulfillment when they're present and a feeling of hollowness and loss when they're gone, is to describe it as not love.

That's where I went with my direction on Evil love. It is real, in its way - genuine affection, true happiness for another person, even existing as an exception to an otherwise selfish alignment. Where it differs isn't how it feels that love, which is universal, but how it expresses the feeling. Good expresses love through compassion, generosity, and a sharing of affections. Evil, being conflicted, expresses it in gestures that may sometimes be welcomed, and may sometimes be terrifying. But the thing that they are expressing - the pearl at the heart of it all - remains the same.

Strigon
2016-06-15, 03:04 PM
That's where I went with my direction on Evil love. It is real, in its way - genuine affection, true happiness for another person, even existing as an exception to an otherwise selfish alignment. Where it differs isn't how it feels that love, which is universal, but how it expresses the feeling. Good expresses love through compassion, generosity, and a sharing of affections. Evil, being conflicted, expresses it in gestures that may sometimes be welcomed, and may sometimes be terrifying. But the thing that they are expressing - the pearl at the heart of it all - remains the same.

And I don't disagree with anything you said. Which is rare. (Not specifically you, but seeing any argument I agree with entirely is very uncommon). I suppose that's sort of what I meant about assuming each character stays entirely within his own alignment, as once you get into the idea of an Evil person feeling "Good" love, generalizations fall apart.

Of course, that's also where good storytelling and believable characters come from, so...