Mythic Question: Arcane Surge

[thecrimsondawn]

As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. If the spell requires a saving throw, any non-mythic creatures affected by the spell roll twice and take the lower result.

If you must attempt a caster level check for the spell to overcome a creature's spell resistance, you can roll your caster level check twice (adding your tier to each) and take the higher result. You can't add a metamagic feat to a spell you cast using

The feeling I get from reading this is by RAI, it seems that as a swift action and with the use of 1MP, you can cast a spell this turn without expending it. However by RAW its looking like its saying with the use of 1MP I can cast a spell AS a swift action that does not expending it, allowing you to in theory, cast 2 spells a turn.

Was there any clarification on this? Amazing initiative even says you cant use the extra standard action to cast a spell, but then again, this is the mythic arcane casting class too, so something like that would be expected.

[Necromancy]

As a swift action, you can expend one use of mythic power to cast any one arcane spell without expending a prepared spell or spell slot. If you prepare spells, this spell must be one you prepared today (even if you have already cast it); if you're a spontaneous caster, this spell must be one of your spells known. If the spell requires a saving throw, any non-mythic creatures affected by the spell roll twice and take the lower result.

If you must attempt a caster level check for the spell to overcome a creature's spell resistance, you can roll your caster level check twice (adding your tier to each) and take the higher result. You can't add a metamagic feat to a spell you cast using

The feeling I get from reading this is by RAI, it seems that as a swift action and with the use of 1MP, you can cast a spell this turn without expending it. However by RAW its looking like its saying with the use of 1MP I can cast a spell AS a swift action that does not expending it, allowing you to in theory, cast 2 spells a turn.

Was there any clarification on this? Amazing initiative even says you cant use the extra standard action to cast a spell, but then again, this is the mythic arcane casting class too, so something like that would be expected.

Yes 2 spells, no different than quickened spells really

no don't take it

Take wild arcana

Edit - here you go

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?316045-PF-CTP-s-Guide-to-Mythic-Adventures

[thecrimsondawn]

Wild Arcana is indeed better for a Wizard as any spell I know can be cast. However its a bit redundant with my play style. I play with most of my spell slots empty, only prepping the must haves. Then with the discovery that lets me ready spells in 1min, I remain ready for any situation really. Wild would give me extra spells per day equal to my mythic points - and this is a huge huge deal.
However Arcane Surge has a major use too. Casting twice is not the reason you want Arcane surge. Forcing a save to be rolled twice is what you want it for. Many spells you do NOT want them to fail often causing a useless effect. Just think of a mass enchantment spell or a buffed up mythic spell. Forget damage, you have other party members to do that.

Thanks for the reply tho. I think I may take both of them depending on my needs as I level up.

[Florian]

I think a big part of the decision should be based on what actual level your character is and what your build focusses on, something you sadly did´t mention.

A funny thing about Arcane Surge is he specific clause that for Wizards, the spell they want to duplicate must have been prepared but can already have been used up. The second funny thing is that using Arcane Surge is always a swift action, no matter what action the spell was.

That makes it interesting with SoS/SoD spells for repeat performance when the original spell failed and also works fine with Augment Summoning/Superior Summoning focused builds to instantly double the number of summons.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Arcane Surge is more useful on a prepared caster with a limited spell list... the magus is the only one that I think is more benefitted by taking Arcane Surge than Wild Arcana. Plays better with spell combat, and the magus doesn't have as large a list to play around with.

[Barstro]

Wild Arcana is indeed better for a Wizard as any spell I know can be cast.

Not just spells the PC knows, also ANY spell on the Class's list.

[Necromancy]

Wild Arcana is indeed better for a Wizard as any spell I know can be cast. However its a bit redundant with my play style. I play with most of my spell slots empty, only prepping the must haves. Then with the discovery that lets me ready spells in 1min, I remain ready for any situation really. Wild would give me extra spells per day equal to my mythic points - and this is a huge huge deal.
However Arcane Surge has a major use too. Casting twice is not the reason you want Arcane surge. Forcing a save to be rolled twice is what you want it for. Many spells you do NOT want them to fail often causing a useless effect. Just think of a mass enchantment spell or a buffed up mythic spell. Forget damage, you have other party members to do that.

Thanks for the reply tho. I think I may take both of them depending on my needs as I level up.

No, wild arcana lets you cast any spell on your class list . This includes spells you don't even know, cast at CL+2 (add to SR checks too)

Arcane surge is really ONLY good as the free quicken metamagic. Saves and spell penetration sound good on paper but they really aren't. Saves apply to non mythic only which are throw-away cannon fodder in a mythic game. if you're worried about spell resistance take a feat.

[Florian]

No, wild arcana lets you cast any spell on your class list . This includes spells you don't even know, cast at CL+2 (add to SR checks too)

Arcane surge is really ONLY good as the free quicken metamagic. Saves and spell penetration sound good on paper but they really aren't. Saves apply to non mythic only which are throw-away cannon fodder in a mythic game. if you're worried about spell resistance take a feat.

See, you´re engaging this from a pure TO POV, that´s why it´ll ultimately lead nowhere.

The list of "must have" spells is so small, even a regular T2 spells known caster can handle them all.
That leaves the cases when a spell can replicate a class feature and you must ask yourself why you´re not handing that duty to a team mate who doesn´t have to spent MP to do it.

[Necromancy]

The list of "must have" spells doesn't begin to cover every situation. What's better? Minor bonuses or the ability to pop out any spell in the game, right when you need it?

[Florian]

The list of "must have" spells doesn't begin to cover every situation. What's better? Minor bonuses or the ability to pop out any spell in the game, right when you need it?

You want to deepen that line of discussion, be more precise at what you´re actually meaning instead at throwing around blanket assumptions.

If all you´re saying is "I want all the spotlight", then please go and find a 1 to 1 game of V20 and be done with it. Else, in a group-based game, there´s no need for that unless the entire group has a hole in its setup.

Edit: Whole... Hole..Gna!!

[Barstro]

See, you´re engaging this from a pure TO POV, that´s why it´ll ultimately lead nowhere.

The list of "must have" spells is so small, even a regular T2 spells known caster can handle them all.
That leaves the cases when a spell can replicate a class feature and you must ask yourself why you´re not handing that duty to a team mate who doesn´t have to spent MP to do it.

This topic is a little tangential to the original post, but I don't think my question warrants a new thread.

My particular "helpful" and "don't steal the spotlight" play style might be obstructing my view, but I have trouble agreeing with your apparent claim that Arcane Surge is better than (or even equal to) Wild Arcana.

1) From a pure cost point of view; having access to all Class Spells without needing them written down saves a lot of money; money that could be spent on items for your friends to help them shine. (Ok, I've never had a reason to read up on those rules before and have just done so; not a whole lot of savings)
2) For this argument, I'll concede that 99% of the time a wizard will have a "good enough" spell in the book. But why not make it 100% of the time with Wild Arcana?
3) Isn't casting two spells a round stealing the spotlight too?

[Florian]

@Barstro:

Do yourself the favor and take a critical look at how Paizo handles things. The "rules levels" on the PRD are strictly separated and the "Companion" (or similar) lines of books never get an update nor do they show up on the PRD.

With that in mind, do take a critical look at what "Mythic Adventures" actually covers and what it leaves out, with a keen eye on what will get mystically augmented.

You will notice that there is a distinct difference between everything/PFSRD (or Nethys) and everything approved/PRD and that makes quite the difference.

And exactly that difference will make or break how Wild Surge/Arcane Surge should be rated.

[Barstro]

I'm afraid I do not understand what you are asking me to research or what point you are trying to make.

While you did not directly, or even indirectly AFAICT, answer my question, said question was tangential to the original poster's question, and I thus feel no reason to continue it on this thread.

[Necromancy]

@Barstro:

Do yourself the favor and take a critical look at how Paizo handles things. The "rules levels" on the PRD are strictly separated and the "Companion" (or similar) lines of books never get an update nor do they show up on the PRD.

With that in mind, do take a critical look at what "Mythic Adventures" actually covers and what it leaves out, with a keen eye on what will get mystically augmented.

You will notice that there is a distinct difference between everything/PFSRD (or Nethys) and everything approved/PRD and that makes quite the difference.

And exactly that difference will make or break how Wild Surge/Arcane Surge should be rated.

Did you recently switch pot dealers?

[Florian]

Did you recently switch pot dealers?

No, my dealer´s still good. But english is not my native language and sometimes I hit the language barrier when I have words for certain concepts in my native language and lack a direct equivalent to them when using english. And yes, sometimes I get a bit inpatient by that.


I'm afraid I do not understand what you are asking me to research or what point you are trying to make.

While you did not directly, or even indirectly AFAICT, answer my question, said question was tangential to the original poster's question, and I thus feel no reason to continue it on this thread.

See my above answer. Reviewing what I wrote, I see where it might lack context.

I try to be more clear this time:

As we do not know what source material is allowed for the individual group, rating an ability should also include what assumption of availability is used to base the rating on. There´s a marked difference what "all spells" means, when it´s based on CRB-only, PRD-only or PFSRD-only.

"Mythic Adventures" only supports a certain range of products (CRB, APG, ARG) and stops beyond that.

So when talking about Wild Surge, it´s also important to note what source availability we have in mind when doing so, as the more specialized spells could actually not be available then.

[Necromancy]

It really doesn't matter

Even if you focus on "core only" you still have hundreds of spells on the arcane spell list.

Of all these spells, probably 3/4 of them would be considered "situational" meaning that they're awesome if you have them when you need them, but it's unlikely you will.

[Barstro]

"Mythic Adventures" only supports a certain range of products (CRB, APG, ARG) and stops beyond that.

I'll take your word that the above is a set rule and not just speculation.

However, I still think that I'd rather have access to all THOSE spells, than be able to recast a spell I already know from another source. Seems more versatile.

Thanks for clarifying your point.

[Florian]

I'll take your word that the above is a set rule and not just speculation.

Thanks for clarifying your point.

It´s easy to compare which spells and feats got a Mythic Augmented version and at what point the support simply ceased to exist. So nothing on Advanced Class Guide, Pathfinder Unchained or Ultimate Intrigue. There´s a little bit in some Player Companions, but that is mostly universal path skills.