Thoughts on stats

[Afrodactyl]

Hi guys. When building characters, my group will either generally roll their stats (4*D6, drop lowest), the exception being when we're asked to put together spare characters in case of a PC death, where we use standard array for efficiency.

This has got me looking at the point buy system, which we've overlooked up until now. So far, it looks faster than rolling stats, and generally better than standard array.

Obviously each method has pros and cons, but what are people's preferred ways of genning stat numbers? And if it's rolling them, which method do you use?

:EDIT:
Changed D20 to D6, because I posted before having my morning coffee.

[Azedenkae]

4d6p3 is my most common rolling method. Seems to be working well enough.

It really depends on the game and the char. For a more randomized, 'play with the cards you're dealt' feel, rolling is my preference. But sometimes I want optimization of some form, and I go for the point buy system for certainty.

[Anonymouswizard]

Hi guys. When building characters, my group will either generally roll their stats (4*D20, drop lowest), the exception being when we're asked to put together spare characters in case of a PC death, where we use standard array for efficiency.

Do you mean 4d6 drop lowest? Because 4d20 makes no sense.


This has got me looking at the point buy system, which we've overlooked up until now. So far, it looks faster than rolling stats, and generally better than standard array.

Obviously each method has pros and cons, but what are people's preferred ways of genning stat numbers? And if it's rolling them, which method do you use?

My personal favourite is Point Buy, followed by Standard Array, followed by rolling. This is literally because I'm now so used to other games which use a point buy system for characters that having any part of them being randomly generated feels wrong to me. I prefer Point Buy to the Standard Array because it is more customisable, with me being able to pick a range of options for my spread, although it's only a minor preference because I'll generally come out with something like the Standard Array.

When rolling stats, for D&D I prefer 4d6b3 (I can do either in-order or assigned) because it causes a good range of scores and gives the possibility of low scores. Also, due to how it works most characters should be within the same general range. Other stat rolling methods end up with insane variance in character strength (4 20s at level 1 versus only one stat above 16 is one I've actually seen).

[hymer]

In a coming campaign, I'm giving the players eight stat arrays (http://nanmehtar.wikispaces.com/Stat+Arrays), slightly stronger than point buy, to choose from. I generally prefer point buy, but in this case I didn't want to fiddle around with creating a point buy system that lets you get 16s.
I don't like rolling for stats. At all. Too many bad experiences, whereas I have no bad experiences with point buy.

Edit: On a sidenote, 5e's point buy doesn't really allow you a lot of options. You're locked into scores from 8 to 15, and you either go 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 or standard array, with perhaps a slight variation on either.

[Afrodactyl]

Do you mean 4d6 drop lowest? Because 4d20 makes no sense.

You are correct. I need to remember to proofread my posts. OP edited.

[MrStabby]

My preference depends on the type of game. For games that are going to be a long campaign over a year or more then it comes down to point buy.

For shorter games I prefer rolled.

Point buy is balanced, fair and accepted by most people.

So for 5th edition I think rolling is much better than it used to be.

Rolling creates a much more diverse set of characters. The multiclassing restrictions can make it painful to go for some race/class combinations and good rolls can help this. Now if you want to play a half orc ranger wizard you don't feel that putting the minimum points into less important stats at character creation is harming your character. On the other hand, if you roll low, there are still plenty of good options - moon druid or wizard or bard for example. As long as the DM allows re-rolls of really terrible characters this is ok.

[Jeebs]

I prefer point buy, so that you limit the differences in power between party members.

Lately though I've been thinking about trying weird methods to roll, since my groups seem to like it. Maybe 7+1d10 or 5+3d4. That way you can't have less than an 8 in a stat (one of the things I like about Point Buy), but the trade-off would be that it's impossible to have a 20 in any stat at level 1.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.

[Corran]

Personally I dislike rolling for stats. Well, disline is a strong word, and the wrong one, more like fear. I fear rolling for my stats. I dont want to get stuck with really bad stats for my character, for the whole campaign (assuming my character does not die, which I have to assume, or at least hope for). I admire in some way the people who go with rolled stats, as they are certainly braver than me. Maybe this has a lot to do with my first ever character I made, a paladin for 3e. You see, sir Mordred the just was supposed to be a really strong fellow (and just ofc). It turned out he was neither of those things. With a strength score of 13 due to my bad luck at rolling my scores (13 was my second highest, with only charisma besting it, standing at 14), he was always in the shadows of our ranger, who for some reason had a strength score of 17-18. Anyway, my next character (sir Feragron the brave) , after sir Mordred the cruel was slaughtered by a mob of angry peasants that he has been terrorizing for months with the help of his brave companions, and shortly before our whole party finally met their well deserved deaths, was created using the point buy system, which I use almost every time I create a character ever since.

I find the standard array as the quickest method, and the one best suited for relatively inexperienced players who dont care too much to put some effort in understanding the game system. That said, I still prefer the point buy as it gives me more flexibility, essentially rending the standard array redundant for me.

In some rare occassions I might try my luck rolling for stats, as rolling is fun, but when I have a concept in mind that I have long waited to bring into play, and which I really want to play, I will prefer the safety that the point system provides.

[Arkhios]

I may be a bit lenient DM when it comes to rolling stats.

I often let my players roll with the common "4d6, drop lowest", but if their final rolls end up being worse than what you could get with 27 point-buy they're allowed to use the 27 points instead.

[Anonymouswizard]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.

This is unfair. I will scrap dice rolls if there's no +2 modifier in the entire array, but I grew out of even fudging it to get an 18 years ago. It might be because I prefer to play at lower power levels (although potentially mythic in scope), but uber characters just don't interest me as much as good characters (I've previously dropped a character because I got insane stats). Yeah, you occasionally get the guy with the 4 18s at the table every game, but I'd actually question if my group is the right one for him. Sure, we might be saving the world, but we aren't supermen and characters are expected to have flaws. Now there might be a group where fudging your rolls to get an uber character is what everyone does, which is fine, but not everyone will always fudge for them.

Point buy is fairer for other reasons, the chief of which is that everyone begins with a 'power budget' equal to the guys next to them.

[Logosloki]

Players may choose to take a modified version of the array (16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10), Roll 4d6 drop one six times and place these where they wish, Roll 4d6 drop one six times down the line. For short campaigns and one shots we have used monster stats, monster stats with racial bonuses (I remember fondly my half-elf kobold, so young! so brave! died to a crit on the first round of combat), 3d6 six times down the line, everything set at 3 and all sorts of other concoctions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always. Our group didn't fudge, and couldn't.

Rolled in the Roll20 chat log.
This chat log can be saved, though in our case we were all on line together and DM was monitoring. (And much commentary and jesting was in progress ...)
Easy as pie, and all above board.

[Arkhios]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.
This is unfair.

I agree, that's unfair statement.

You don't know that. That's your assumption and you're free to believe what you want, but you can't possibly say that's a universal fact.
Now, it's certainly possible that some (many?) people may fudge rolls, but this is actually the reason why I chose to let my players use a point-buy (27pts) if their rolls are worse than that, to kind of encourage them to not try and fudge, since they can get at least average stats in the end. If they roll better, good for them.

[Democratus]

Point buy is the only fair system.

How is the standard array unfair?

[MaxWilson]

Hi guys. When building characters, my group will either generally roll their stats (4*D6, drop lowest), the exception being when we're asked to put together spare characters in case of a PC death, where we use standard array for efficiency.

This has got me looking at the point buy system, which we've overlooked up until now. So far, it looks faster than rolling stats, and generally better than standard array.

Obviously each method has pros and cons, but what are people's preferred ways of genning stat numbers? And if it's rolling them, which method do you use?

You need to be aware that point buy and standard array result in stats that are slightly below average, around the 40th percentile of rolled stats. (For example, you have over a 50% chance of rolling at least one 16+ on 4d6 drop lowest, whereas point buy will NEVER get you a 16.) Essentially, you are trading power for predictability.

My preferred way is 4d6 drop lowest for PCs, 3d6 for NPC henchmen/etc. I have a house rule that odd ability scores give an extra +1 to ability checks (but not attack rolls or saves) so that odd scores aren't pointless. That's pretty much it, although I do give my players the option to point buy instead if they want to.

[ad_hoc]

So for 5th edition I think rolling is much better than it used to be.

Rolling creates a much more diverse set of characters. The multiclassing restrictions can make it painful to go for some race/class combinations and good rolls can help this. Now if you want to play a half orc ranger wizard you don't feel that putting the minimum points into less important stats at character creation is harming your character. On the other hand, if you roll low, there are still plenty of good options - moon druid or wizard or bard for example. As long as the DM allows re-rolls of really terrible characters this is ok.

5e is by far the worst edition for rolling stats.

This is because:

1. Character advancement/growth is hurt. When people complain about their characters not getting better, most of the time it is because they rolled their stats. Stats have a cap of 20, and if you are already at that or close to it at level 1, you don't have a lot of room for growth.

2. Feats should be competing for a +2 boost in your most important stats. If that is already maxed out early then you can freely take whatever feats you want without drawback.


I do like random character generation so I use cards. Take a deck of playing cards and make a smaller deck using the 2-6 cards. Deal out 6 piles of 3, there are your stats. Average stat is 12. 16+ is unlikely, and one stat being higher means another will be lower. You can even take out 2 cards like the 6 and 2 or 4s if you want everyone to have the same sum.

Side note: I prefer randomly generating stats in order. If I am going to choose where they go, then I would rather just use point buy.

[BW022]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.

Fair yes. For a long campaign... rolling is almost certain to have some characters noticeably better or worse than others.

However, people don't always fudge die rolls. I've been in campaigns where:

a) We have all rolled in front of each other.

and

b) We have each rolled one element in an array and then everyone used the same array -- in whatever order we wish.

and

c) Long time ago, we all rolled a set a stats, and then passed the stats in a random direction. The DM was getting everyone to play a character type they didn't normally.

None of these permitted fudging die rolls.

[Afrodactyl]

Very interesting read so far. I personally dislike rolling characters. Any risk of rolling a character that has a ten as his or her highest stat is too much risk for me. And you have to wait until you're with your group before you can roll, and I like to brainstorm character ideas.

I like the ideas of 7+1d10 and 5+3d4.

[Democratus]

That is one consequence of all versions of D&D from 3rd forward. Stats have a much greater affect on gameplay than they did in OD&D or AD&D.

In OD&D a character with a maximum of 10 in a stat was perfectly playable. I'd say in 5th edition you need to have at least one 12 for your primary stat.

Other than that, it isn't particularly important to have lots of high stats unless there are issues of jealousy between players with differing levels of character power.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

How is the standard array unfair?

Standard array gives you the exact stats as point buy would, it is fair.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

I agree, that's unfair statement.

You don't know that. That's your assumption and you're free to believe what you want, but you can't possibly say that's a universal fact.
Now, it's certainly possible that some (many?) people may fudge rolls, but this is actually the reason why I chose to let my players use a point-buy (27pts) if their rolls are worse than that, to kind of encourage them to not try and fudge, since they can get at least average stats in the end. If they roll better, good for them.

That IS fudging. "You can roll for stats, but if they are not uber, you can take the point buy". Really rolling for stats is rolling 3d6 and if you get a bunch of 4's and 5's, that's what you get. 4d6-1die is fudging as well.

[Democratus]

4d6-1die is fudging as well.

It's not fudging. It is a character generation method.

It's only fudging if you tamper with the results.

[Fflewddur Fflam]

It's not fudging. It is a character generation method.

It's only fudging if you tamper with the results.

It is a fudge, youngin. The stats in this game are based on 3d6. Only after years of people fudging their 3d6 did they institute a rule allowing you a legal fudge of 4d6-1die. It may be legal, but it's still a fudge to produce 3d6 stats.

[Mr.Moron]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.

Nope. I've never done it. I'm a person. This means that at least one person at one time has not fudged a roll.

If the other players in these games have been fudging their rolls, they've been making some really weird choices of things to fudge.

[Democratus]

It is a fudge, youngin. The stats in this game are based on 3d6. Only after years of people fudging their 3d6 did they institute a rule allowing you a legal fudge of 4d6-1die. It may be legal, but it's still a fudge to produce 3d6 stats.

Youngin? I've been playing since the original box and have gamed with old man Gygax. :smallsmile:

Rules change. That doesn't mean following these rules is fudging. It just means you are adhering to the new rules.

Fudging is bending or breaking the rules as they currently exist.

[MaxWilson]

5e is by far the worst edition for rolling stats.

This is because:

1. Character advancement/growth is hurt. When people complain about their characters not getting better, most of the time it is because they rolled their stats. Stats have a cap of 20, and if you are already at that or close to it at level 1, you don't have a lot of room for growth.

2. Feats should be competing for a +2 boost in your most important stats. If that is already maxed out early then you can freely take whatever feats you want without drawback.

I do like random character generation so I use cards. Take a deck of playing cards and make a smaller deck using the 2-6 cards. Deal out 6 piles of 3, there are your stats. Average stat is 12. 16+ is unlikely, and one stat being higher means another will be lower. You can even take out 2 cards like the 6 and 2 or 4s if you want everyone to have the same sum.

Side note: I prefer randomly generating stats in order. If I am going to choose where they go, then I would rather just use point buy.

Are you kidding? Stat rolling in 2nd edition was punishing and high-stakes. In 2nd edition, there were enormous differences between a Fighter with Str 18/92, Dex 17, and Con 17 vs. a Fighter with Str 16, Dex 12, and Con 14. In 5E those differences barely even exist, thanks to changes in the shape of the attribute bonus tables and changes to the way heavy armor works. 5E also has stat advancement as you level up. In 2nd edition, a wizard with an Int of 9 was pretty much permanently out of luck on all of his spell learning--he'd never even get to cast spells of 5th level until he aged to the point where his Int would raise naturally. In 5E he can hit Int 19 eventually and be almost just as good as any other wizard out there; and even if he leaves it at 9, he can still be very effective at a wide range of spells that don't involve saving throws or attack rolls. (Wall of Force, True Polymorph, etc.)

Also, 2nd edition was the only edition I know of where "3d6 in order" was the official stat-rolling method. It was brutal*. Even 1E didn't do that.

* Not that I ever used the "official" method, munchkin teenage me that I was back then. Playing Darksun, I sneered at any human who didn't roll at least a 19 on Strength, because of the huge power differences between 18 and 19. But see also above on how 5E makes munchkin stats less necessary and less important, with absolutely zero of those huge must-hit breakpoints.

[ThaKaptin]

I like array. Point buy isnt bad but that temptation to tank 2 stats to help elsewhere has gotten me in trouble before. Rolling stats is just not something im interested in and wont play in a group that requires it. To me, having an underpowered character compared to the rest of the group is no fun. You feel like you are being carried (because you are) and you are just ineffective. You cant even use skills effectively when you roll sh*t stats. So the most you can do in a game is role play, which is fine, except that you cant role play with any real effect because as soon as you have to roll a persuade or a knowledge check on something, you just fall on your face. I'm not a power gamer by any means, but I dont want to be the anchor holding the group back either because I cant hold my own.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not a power gamer by any means, but I dont want to be the anchor holding the group back either because I cant hold my own.

Speaking as a power gamer, I assure that you that 5E is well-suited for power gaming even with low stats. I don't think it's possible to roll an array so low that a competent powergamer couldn't have fun with it.

At lowest stats (all 3s) you might only have a few options (Moon Druid and Necromancer) but it's not like you're going to roll all 3s every time, so you won't get tired of Moon Druids.

[Anonymouswizard]

It is a fudge, youngin. The stats in this game are based on 3d6. Only after years of people fudging their 3d6 did they institute a rule allowing you a legal fudge of 4d6-1die. It may be legal, but it's still a fudge to produce 3d6 stats.

No, this is wrong. The stats range from 3 to 18 as a standard value, with the average around 10 (note I hate the way D&D stats work, I'd rather just have the modifiers and put the average at some arbitrary value). In the original versions of D&D characters with low stats were viable (maybe not good, but viable). I believe when AD&D 1e came out it used 4d6b3 because the requirements for bonuses were higher, and so higher scores were more important, then 2e changed back to 3d6 in order (but presented 4d6b3 as an alternative), and then since 3.0 it's been 4d6b3. It's not a legal fudge except in 2e, it's the intended way of play in 1e and 3.0+, and is what the game is balanced around.

Bare in mind that I also agree that giving players a fallback option is actually rather bad, but whenever I've run for rolled characters or seen them used there's been a wide variety of base power from their stats, and so I don't use games unless I can realistically not roll the dice. I think if I ever try running 5e again I'll give the players a 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9 array so they can feel more powerful, but that'll be a long time in the future (I'm currently married to systems more on the narrative and roleplaying side).

[Tanarii]

Point buy is the only fair system. People always fudge die rolls to create uber characters. Always.It's kind of hard to do that if the DM is watching.

But it's the only system which can ensure no cheating, if there isn't someone to do that.

Edit: Actually, I'd say standard array is more "fair" than point buy, as all characters start with the exact same array.

[MaxWilson]

It's kind of hard to do that if the DM is watching.

But it's the only system which can ensure no cheating, if there isn't someone to do that.

Edit: Actually, I'd say standard array is more "fair" than point buy, as all characters start with the exact same array.

Not really. You can just have the DM roll up your stats and tell you what your array is. It's completely uncheatable and yet preserves randomness.

[Tanarii]

Not really. You can just have the DM roll up your stats and tell you what your array is. It's completely uncheatable and yet preserves randomness.
I should have known not to throw in the word "only" :smallbiggrin:

[Mr.Moron]

It's kind of hard to do that if the DM is watching.

But it's the only system which can ensure no cheating, if there isn't someone to do that.

Edit: Actually, I'd say standard array is more "fair" than point buy, as all characters start with the exact same array.

What if the GM is in on it and just doesn't tell the group. What if the whole group is in on it leaving you as the lone fair player. What if you're in on but you don't know because you're trapped within a nightmarish psychological breakdown where you can't tell reality from fiction and dear god why are the goblins jumping out of the MM and eating the dice.

[Arkhios]

That IS fudging. "You can roll for stats, but if they are not uber, you can take the point buy". Really rolling for stats is rolling 3d6 and if you get a bunch of 4's and 5's, that's what you get. 4d6-1die is fudging as well.

You and I have a very different view on what's fudging and what's not, it seems. To each his own, I guess.

To me, "fudging" means that if a player rolls something he just didn't like, he subsequently lies that this roll was something else, holding the die in secrecy if possible.

Letting my players to use standard array or 27 point-buy instead of rolls such as "11, 12, 10, 9, 8, 4" is far less fudgy than actually fudging the roll, and lying to my face.
If that's fudgy to you, then fine. But if I, as the DM, am fine with that, why bother argue about it? When I'm not behind the DM-screen, I play by the current table rules.

[Laserlight]

For myself, I prefer to roll (4d6p3, per the rules) so that I have a chance to get higher than 15, have a chance to get lower than 8 (because your weaknesses define your character as much as your strengths do), and consider combinations that I might not get through point buy. There have been occasions when I've picked the lowest three dice instead of the highest.

As a DM, my players are running two sets of characters. Original characters could roll and then decide whether to keep the rolls or point buy. Alter Ego team got an array 8 10 12 14 16 18.

[Tanarii]

Also, 2nd edition was the only edition I know of where "3d6 in order" was the official stat-rolling method. It was brutal*. Even 1E didn't do that.BECMI used it. But you can consider that method not pure 3d6, at least by the time RC came out. Because it allowed you to raise your PR by 1 for each 2 (min 9) you dropped Str, Int or Wis. Not sure if that rule was in the Basic Set though. (I never played oD&D or B/X so not sure about those.)

I was gonna nu-uh your 1e claim, but just looked it up and sure enough, method I is 4d6d1. Good call.

[Anonymouswizard]

You and I have a very different view on what's fudging and what's not, it seems. To each his own, I guess.

To me, "fudging" means that if a player rolls something he just didn't like, he subsequently lies that this roll was something else, holding the die in secrecy if possible.

You forgot the ever classic 'practice rolls until I get at least one 18' and 'find a way to make my bad rolls not count'. These two have essentially led me to create a rule in my games that (thankfully) has never had to be used outside of rolling characters: I don't care if the dice hit somebody's drink or knocked a mini over, unless the dice rolled off the table, fell into someone's drink*, or you cannot balance another die on top of it the roll is valid. I also eyeball all stat rolls when I use them so player's can't get away with the lying one (because I mentally add faster than almost anybody I've met).

*The least common reason for an invalid roll at my table, but I've done it at least once. There must still be liquid in the mug though.

[Afrodactyl]

I don't care if the dice hit somebody's drink or knocked a mini over, unless the dice rolled off the table, fell into someone's drink

After playing wargames where a die that's not lying flat or die off the table is invalid, I invoke the 'you have to roll the dice in this box, no exceptions' rule at my table.

[Democratus]

What if the GM is in on it and just doesn't tell the group. What if the whole group is in on it leaving you as the lone fair player. What if you're in on but you don't know because you're trapped within a nightmarish psychological breakdown where you can't tell reality from fiction and dear god why are the goblins jumping out of the MM and eating the dice.

Now THAT would be a great start for a Call of Cthulhu game!

[Anonymouswizard]

After playing wargames where a die that's not lying flat or die off the table is invalid, I invoke the 'you have to roll the dice in this box, no exceptions' rule at my table.

I generally play with a minimal table and most people I know roll on their character sheet, so there's rarely a problem. It's just there's so many things where the die could have been affected I've found it's simpler to just have a small list of circumstances. The only one that come up with any regularity is 'table dice only', and people stop complaining about that one pretty quick (there are some advantages to having four siblings).