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Guinaur
2007-06-29, 03:29 AM
Quick question:
How would you as a DM go about a NPC casting Charm Person on one of the players? If you told your player "ok, you suddenly like this person... allot." He would ofcourse know whats going on, and metagaming would happen. Is there any sneaky way of doing this?

Saph
2007-06-29, 03:41 AM
Not really. You could try, but as soon as the other PCs showed up you'd have to start telling him one thing and the others something else, which would kinda give it away.

I think this is one case where you're better off just describing it in straight out-of-game terms. "Yes, you've been charmed, he's now your best friend. Just try to roleplay it, it doesn't matter if you don't do a perfect job."

Be aware, though, that this is the kind of thing that munchkin-types will always try and weasel out of - "Oh, I'm trying to help that NPC wizard, but I, uh, accidentally misheard him so I'm stabbing him instead." If they really can't do it you'll just have to take over the PC as an NPC while the spell lasts and he's in the caster's vicinity.

- Saph

banjo1985
2007-06-29, 03:43 AM
Just take them out of the room and say what's happened, then you're just going to have to trust the player to roleplay it convincingly.

Falrin
2007-06-29, 03:48 AM
And if they can't, just plain tell them how they react. If they still try to twist every word, take over the PC.

Also very important note: It's not because you have a new 'best friend' that you've forgotten your old ones. When two friends fight you come between them and use diplomacy, depending on your character maybe even bash somebody with some non-lethal damage. You don't start killing people.

Lucky
2007-06-29, 03:49 AM
Just take them out of the room and say what's happened, then you're just going to have to trust the player to roleplay it convincingly.This is what I would recommend. If you trust him to roleplay it without giving it away, take him aside for a bit. Tell him what happened to his character, and give him the general idea of how he should act.

Bender
2007-06-29, 04:27 AM
Give him a little piece of paper with the message that he's charmed. This is a great way to hand out the results of knowledge/listen/spot... too if the party is unable to communicate freely.
As with rolling dice, you regularly have to hand out empty notes of course :smallwink:

Zel
2007-06-29, 04:39 AM
Don't do it, is your plot so weak that your only option is to mind-control the PCs? I should hope that your DM toolbox is big enough to coerce them into a general course of action without resorting to DC 75 enchantments.

Bender
2007-06-29, 05:04 AM
Don't do it, is your plot so weak that your only option is to mind-control the PCs? I should hope that your DM toolbox is big enough to coerce them into a general course of action without resorting to DC 75 enchantments.

It can be interesting though, confusing the PC's and the players. That can of course be done with bluff as well. Would only work in some groups, but DM knows what he can do I guess.
It doesn't have to be a plot device either, but can create a surprise round, or the need for the other PC's to convince the charmed one to join a fight. It is very group dependent though.

banjo1985
2007-06-29, 05:10 AM
We,ve had party members charm one another in the past which was quite entertaining for a while. I think its all good as long as its not an obvious plot device.

The Prince of Cats
2007-06-29, 05:38 AM
Don't do it, is your plot so weak that your only option is to mind-control the PCs? I should hope that your DM toolbox is big enough to coerce them into a general course of action without resorting to DC 75 enchantments.
I tend to avoid anything like this, though I would argue it is less about avoiding rail-roading and more about the sheer headache of getting any of my players to 'get with the program' and actually maintain a relationship or a thought for longer than 45 seconds.

The only example I can really think of for breaking this is succubi. In that case, I just wouldn't tell them things their character would not worry about. You cannot play a succubus as a combat-oriented monster, so you just adjust the PCs perception of the NPC by adjusting what they get told. (mechanically, they always fail their sense-motive checks against the succubus, that kind of thing)

Fruan
2007-06-29, 05:43 AM
When someone gets charmed, explain to the player in question that you'll be giving them a roleplaying xp bonus when it wears off if they play it out correctly. Ta dah! No more problem.

Well, ok, it might not be that simple, but as everyone else has explained various sticks, I thought I'd point out the carrot.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-29, 05:59 AM
Basically I agree with everybody else: you're just going to have to say "you're charmed, this is a supernatural effect which causes you to treat this person as a good friend."

Now personally, I've always thought people treated Charm Person as being way, way too powerful. I'd be totally okay with an Evil PC saying "okay, but you do realise that I don't give a crap about my friends, right?"

Charm Person makes you well disposed towards somebody, it doesn't make you their lapdog.

Duff
2007-06-29, 06:00 AM
The only example I can really think of for breaking this is succubi. In that case, I just wouldn't tell them things their character would not worry about. You cannot play a succubus as a combat-oriented monster, so you just adjust the PCs perception of the NPC by adjusting what they get told. (mechanically, they always fail their sense-motive checks against the succubus, that kind of thing)

If your party like the mind games, it is "must do". One member of the party makes inexplicable decisions, trusts the stranger entierly too much, blurts the party secrets to the bad-guy and then gets very upset with the party trying to kill their friend! If played right it can be anything from high drama to ROFL.

Guinaur
2007-06-29, 07:38 AM
Hmm... I the point about where telling the PC in question would probably be the best bet. An example I just thought of is like so (this is without telling the PC's anything about being charmed):

"While in town after a dungeon crawl, the party spits up to go to farious shops for resupplying. The fighter is on his way to the blacksmiths shop, when a unseen figure in the allyway makes a quick hand gesture and says some strange words. The Fighter feels a strange fibe in the air, but doesn't give it much thought, when suddenly someone grabs his shoulder from behind. The Fighter tenses up and turns around quickly, only to see a man he at first does not recognise, but then notices that it is a friend whose name he cannot remember. The friend asks him what he's been up to, and the Fighter tells him all about his adventures the last few days (revealing some interesting secrets). When they reach the blacksmith, the Fighters "friend" tells him that he needs to go now, but asks whether the Fighter has any gold to spare. The "friend" tells the Fighter that he's been having some money problems and could use a helping hand from his old friend. The Fighter say's sure, and gives his friend a generous helping of gold before waving him goodbye. A few hours later, the fighter sudden remembers that he had never met that person before and that it was a complete stranger."

In that senario, the fighter could maybe make sense motive checks at some points at a -10 or something.

What do you all think?

Falrin
2007-06-29, 07:57 AM
That's a very fine way indeed.

Also this is thé single best way to railroad a plot. Well, it's not railroading, but everybody knows the first thing a player wants in this case is his share of that sweet, sweet vengeance.

The local thiefs guild will get some trouble with this. The unknown person sits in a corner as 4 poor smugs beat the hell out of the local guildmaster that oddly enough looks exactly like the charmer.

A litlle magic and some brains is all you need for a local thiefsguild-coup.

Alveanerle
2007-06-29, 08:07 AM
So the guy walks out to the toilet and upon returning finds a small note on his chair, stating "You're charmed by X. +exp for good rp. -exp if you OOC indicate it to other players".

I'm a big fun of VERY SCARCE, like one per ten sessions, secret messages like "You are suddently overwhelmed by fear. +50xp for each player you scare by your behaviour".

banjo1985
2007-06-29, 08:11 AM
Is it really stupid that I've only just worked out that OOC stands for out of character?

Anyhow, yeah some kind of carrot for teh player involved would work, good rolepleying is what the games all about, it's an opportunity for the player involved to gain a bit of exp. The note would probably work better than taking the player out of the room to explain it, my group tends to think somethings up when that happens, and damnit, they're usually right...

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-29, 08:17 AM
This is a bit of an aside, but I think it's interesting.

Somebody above asked why you would ever put a PC under a charm spell.

Speaking personally, I'd do it because if you run it right it provides an ample opportunity for a player to explore the personality of their character. Essentially what it becomes is a chance to say to your player: "What would your character never do, even under magical compulsion."

Although it's a joke, the OotS strip in which Nale Charms Belkar and then commands him to "slay your companions and bring all of their magical items to me" is a good example of this.

Bender
2007-06-29, 08:35 AM
When they reach the blacksmith, the Fighters "friend" tells him that he needs to go now, but asks whether the Fighter has any gold to spare. The "friend" tells the Fighter that he's been having some money problems and could use a helping hand from his old friend. The Fighter say's sure, and gives his friend a generous helping of gold before waving him goodbye.

The player of the fighter has to agree with giving the money though. If he/she decides the fighter wouldn't give money to a friend in need (who doesn't even explain why he needs it), then the fighter doesn't.

Guinaur
2007-06-29, 08:45 AM
Yeah, this would probably have been a LG aligned player/character. Another note, what effect would the Charm Person spell on a PC have on sence motive vs bluff checks? Would the charmed player get a -10 or something?

Bender
2007-06-29, 08:52 AM
Yeah, this would probably have been a LG aligned player/character. Another note, what effect would the Charm Person spell on a PC have on sence motive vs bluff checks? Would the charmed player get a -10 or something?

He would want to believe your, so at least -5, but -10 makes sense since it's magical.
edit: but a sense motive check might not be necessary, because "the charmed person perceives your words in the most favourable way", which means he always believes you.
If you read the spell description, an opposed charisma check would also get the PC to give money.
The DMG says something about never deciding what a player would do when charmed, so a bit of goodwill from the player is necessary (if you know they'll make a problem, don't charm their PC).

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-06-29, 08:53 AM
Don't do it, is your plot so weak that your only option is to mind-control the PCs? I should hope that your DM toolbox is big enough to coerce them into a general course of action without resorting to DC 75 enchantments.
Who said the plot hinged on the charm person? It can be just a matter of procedure 'cause you have a BBEG enchanter. Or even just a beholder with a charm person ray.

And charm person is hardly mind control. It just shifts the target's attitude. There's very little direct control, aside from the caster's ability to attempt to give orders with the appropriate checks.

Also, I want to point out that charm person doesn't make the target the caster's 'best friend.' I would think a character would have a Helpful attitude towards his or her best friend. Charm person just makes the attitude Friendly. So the target just becomes a regular friend. Which, of course, makes things even more difficult for the caster if the target's real best friends are around.

Anyway, everyone else that says, "Tell the player straight out they've been charmed," has it right. If possible, find a way to covey this information without alerting the other players. But if you can't, then you might just have to settle for a major case of dramatic irony on their PCs.

Dan_Hemmens
2007-06-29, 09:16 AM
And charm person is hardly mind control. It just shifts the target's attitude. There's very little direct control, aside from the caster's ability to attempt to give orders with the appropriate checks.


Unfortunately, the Charm Person spell is badly worded. In particular a lot of people read the line:

"you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do"

As meaning:

"You can convince it to do anything, even things it would not ordinarily do, if you win an opposed Charisma check."

Which does kind of amount to mind control.

The_Werebear
2007-06-29, 09:39 AM
Ah, good times.

I was playing a dwarf barbarian. We had been sent to go find a member of a local township who had been assumed to have been kidnapped by a tribal warrior from a barbarian nation that the township was very paranoid about. We went off to find them. When we finally caught up, we found the warrior, the girl, and a mage from that tribe who was going to marry them. Turns out the girl was in love with the warrior. My barbarian was happy for them, but incredibly suspicious of the sorcerer. He began questioning him, then taunting him for being weak in a tribe of strong people. Rather than put up with my crap, he charmed me. The DM simply whispered it to me, and I RP'ed it out in full, sharing alcohol with him, following him around chatting, and generally treating him like a long lost brother. Until it wore off about an hour after he left camp. Then, the Barbarian assumed he must have gotten drunk and a little too friendly.

Good times. I got major RP points for it.

Citizen Joe
2007-06-29, 09:49 AM
Charm Person really doesn't work on PC's. It shifts your attitude better when dealing with them, but PC's don't use that mechanic. PC's are controlled by players not some random roll of the die.

Note that this is also why I don't agree with Warlocks and Binders as Player Classes. Both of them involve pacts with other creature to work and thus subvert the control of the character away from the player. They are fine (maybe) as NPC's since the DM is controlling both the controller and the pacted entity.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-06-29, 12:22 PM
Charm Person really doesn't work on PC's. It shifts your attitude better when dealing with them, but PC's don't use that mechanic. PC's are controlled by players not some random roll of the die.
It's a magical effect. Far less intensive than the cursed items that change the PC's alignment. You know, the sort of thing that's quite definitely meant for messing with the PCs.

By this logic, you could just about go far as saying all PCs are immune to spells of the Enchantment (charm) subschool just because they are PCs. And that's just ridiculous


Note that this is also why I don't agree with Warlocks and Binders as Player Classes. Both of them involve pacts with other creature to work and thus subvert the control of the character away from the player. They are fine (maybe) as NPC's since the DM is controlling both the controller and the pacted entity.
Uh, in what way does either class subvert control of the character away from the player?

The warlock has absolutely nothing in restricting player action. The "Pacts with Dark Powers" aspect is pure flavor with no in-game effect whatsoever. I can change that bit without actually changing any of the Warlock's abilities whatsoever.

Meanwhile, the Binder only places a few minor restrictions when a bound vestige gains influence on the character due to a poor pact. In most cases, these influences aren't even as restrictive as the Paladin's code. And the player still controls the character. The player can always decide how the character will act within the bounds of those restrictions.

Behold_the_Void
2007-06-29, 01:04 PM
In serious campaigns, I tend to do a lot of rolling for the PCs myself, so it works a little something like this.

*DM makes a few rolls. Of the four characters, Vorgash the Mighty and Cendrick the Quick failed their will saves, whereas Xiallim and Hendrick the Wise made their saves. Thus, Xiallim and Hendrick were entitled to a Sense Motive check as well, Xiallim having rolled a 10 and Hendrick a 27. They also are somewhat aware that something twinged in their mind but they were able to throw off the effect. The creature in question is a succubus, she attempted to charm them all before appearing before them and making herself known.)*

(To the party): The woman standing before you has a complexion of purest alabaster, stark contrast to the raven hair that falls to the small of her back. Her features are strikingly beautiful, angular and sharply defined. She wears a gossamer gown that seems to whirl as she moves, creating an almost unearthly effect.

Vorgash feels a sense of wonderment at the lady's beauty and nobility. She is obviously a woman who deserves much respect and is likely in more danger than she realizes within this dangerous crypt. It is his duty as a Knight of Hieronius to aid her and remove her from such a foul place as soon as possible. It would be extraordinarily rude and unchivalrous to do anything but.

Cendrick thinks she's hot. Really really really hot.

(Pass a note to both Xiallim and Hendrick's characters telling them that they felt a haze fall over their mind briefly, but were able to shake it off, albeit with some difficulty).

Xiallim sees a woman standing before him who is obviously of noble countenance. It strikes him as a bit odd to see such a woman within this dangerous crypt, although there are many reasons she might be down here, especially if she is a member of the family who owns the crypt. Her bearing and appearance certainly gives credence to this theory, and it's entirely possible that she has some means with which to take care of herself.

Hendrick finds the entire situation a bit odd. Encountering beautiful women so deep in an undead and demon-infested crypt is certainly one of the last things one would expect to find. He feels that something may not be as it seems.

Now admittedly, my groups tend to be pretty decent roleplayers, but by making the rolls myself, they don't know who did what, or even that a charm took place (Xiallim and Hendrick's character are, of course, free to infer that such a thing happened, hence the notes).

Continue the encounter as normal from there. Hendrick or Xiallim might make a point of the woman being there, or bring up what they felt just prior. If some of the other players look like they might be tempted to metagame, I use some in-game coaxing to keep their mind on track (are you sure you believe Hendrick, Vorgash? This woman is alone in a defenseless crypt and here he is accusing her of wrongdoing.) I also allow people to talk others down from a charm (I had this happen in a D20 modern/D&D mix Shadow Chasers campaign where the rogue managed to talk the ranger out of a charm through application of logic, allowing the ranger another will save with a bonus to his save), so through proper roleplay the charm effects can be broken.

Really, it comes down to me trusting my players to be able to play the scenario I've presented to them. As players who don't mesh with my group don't last long (the last one, a pseudo power-gamer who carried a lot of in-game grudges was actually removed from the group by consensus of the rest of the group), those I play with rarely disappoint me in their ability to respond as is appropriate.

Roderick_BR
2007-06-29, 01:20 PM
Don't do it, is your plot so weak that your only option is to mind-control the PCs? I should hope that your DM toolbox is big enough to coerce them into a general course of action without resorting to DC 75 enchantments.
And why wouldn't an NPC do it? A smart villain could use a PC to get important info from the party. It's not a weak story, it's someone using it, because he can.

Secret notes and cooperation from the players works great here.
This one time playing Vampire: the Maskerade, my character was interrogated by some prince guy. The DM rised his voice when he asked, and I took it as a clue, and asked, OOC, "is he using a discipline to force me to talk?" and he said yes, so I played with it, giving him the information he asked. Later I had to tell my companions, IC, that "I don't know why I suddenly told him everything". One of the others players, also IC, told me that I was charmed.

Not forgetting to allow all kinds of protection/saving throws/whatever, as normal, not plotting the DCs to impossible levels.

Corolinth
2007-06-29, 01:41 PM
Charm Person works better with the group that you've been gaming with after graduating college than it does with your buddies from high school algebra, as a general rule. The hobby as a whole is like that. While tabletop gaming is designed for players of nearly all ages, different stories, plots, adventures, tricks, tactics, and such will have different results depending on the age and experience of the people you're gaming with.

This is a situation where you resort to your bag of GM tricks. If you're worried your players won't roleplay it right, then don't ask them for a Will save. That's a dead giveaway that someone's being targetted with mind-affecting spells. Instead, make them all roll listen checks. Look at the person you'rr trying to charm, add his Will save modifier to his die roll, take him aside, and give him whatever explanation is appropriate depending on whether he passed or failed.

Yes, it's outright lying to your players. Yes, it's sneaky and underhanded. Charm Person is lying to the character, so why should you tell the players what's really going on? Joe gets back to the group, and everyone else just thinks he passed his listen check. There'll be a lot of confusion if a few people rolled higher than Joe on their listen checks, but that's a good thing. It distracts them from what's really going on, and keeps them from noticing that Joe is charmed.

Renx
2007-06-29, 02:32 PM
Depends on your group, the target and your general level of roleplaying.

I'd take the player aside, ask if he's OK with playing it. If not, NPC him for a while. Personally, I'd make the charm more powerful in direct relation to the amount of bitching/I-resist! the player does.

Of course, if the PC happens to be a priest of an unholy god, he might go "My friend! Let me show you the glory of undeath!" I'd allow it :P

//Edit1::

This is a situation where you resort to your bag of GM tricks. If you're worried your players won't roleplay it right, then don't ask them for a Will save. That's a dead giveaway that someone's being targetted with mind-affecting spells. Instead, make them all roll listen checks. Look at the person you'rr trying to charm, add his Will save modifier to his die roll, take him aside, and give him whatever explanation is appropriate depending on whether he passed or failed.

Hear hear!


Yes, it's outright lying to your players. Yes, it's sneaky and underhanded. Charm Person is lying to the character, so why should you tell the players what's really going on?

Agreed. Also, lying and sneaky bits are some of the DMs best friends. As long as it doesn't become a DM-vs-party situation.