Wizards Above 1st Level and Their Spellbooks

[Amphetryon]

When a campaign starts at 1st level, it's easy for the DM to limit a Wizard's spellbook (or an Archivist's, or any other spellbook-dependent caster's), because the new Character has yet to adventure. When a campaign starts at 6th, or 10th, or 15th level, things get murkier, as the new Character has adventured in order to reach the campaign's level entirely through the process of backstory, rather than interacting with the DM's campaign.

As a Player, how many spells do you expect to have in your spellbook when a campaign starts at, say, 6th level? At 10th?

As a DM, how many spells are 'too many' for a brand-new 6th or 10th level Wizard to have in her spellbook when the campaign starts? How much influence, if any, does the Player's proposed backstory have on the number of spells you find reasonable?

[Daefos]

They have their starting spells, their free spells from levelling up, and as many spells as they're willing to buy scrolls of and scribe into their book. There doesn't really need to be any other limit.

[Mystral]

They have their starting spells, their free spells from levelling up, and as many spells as they're willing to buy scrolls of and scribe into their book. There doesn't really need to be any other limit.

Every group I ever played with handles it the same way. Maybe some spells were banned or restricted, but otherwise I don't think there is any debate.

[Amphetryon]

Every group I ever played with handles it the same way. Maybe some spells were banned or restricted, but otherwise I don't think there is any debate.

The bold portion has not been my experience.

[fishyfishyfishy]

That's how I handle it as well. If they want more spells than what is given via level up they need to use the same methods that they'd use leveling up naturally. I might throw in a few random bonus spells known as well, just to simulate the idea that some may have come from spell books looted over their career.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Mystral
Every group I ever played with handles it the same way. Maybe some spells were banned or restricted, but otherwise I don't think there is any debate.

Sadly, not every group works this way.

In my last gaming group, I tried to do just what Daefos suggested--purchase scrolls and scribe them into my spellbook. I set aside a portion of my starting GP and carefully worked out which spells I wanted, mainly for immediate casting but also a couple higher-level spells to have on hand when I leveled.

For reasons never fully explained, my DM wouldn't let me use the full GP amount, nor most of the spells I'd selected, and ended up only allowing a short and anemic list. It wasn't the crowning frustration in that campaign, but I'd just switched out from a previous character and had invested a lot of time, effort and hopes into my new character, so it was one more disappointment in a growing string of them.


Originally Posted by fishyfishyfishy
I might throw in a few random bonus spells known as well, just to simulate the idea that some may have come from spell books looted over their career.

This is what I like to do when I'm running a campaign. Sadly, this is pretty much the opposite of what my last DM enforced.

[tyckspoon]

As many as the player is willing to pay for. The negotiation is about the rate - do you charge full market for a scroll plus scribing costs? Creation cost + copying? Book access fee and scribing? Assume spell trading is a thing and only charge scribing? Those are all legitimate ways to determine cost of having a spell, and they'll all result in much differently sized spellbooks.

[Willie the Duck]

There is a simple, calculable value of each spell (cost of a scroll of it, plus cost to scribe in one's book). This should be part of the WBL (if one uses WBL for characters created after level 1).

There's a reasonable argument that characters that are built organically will be less optimized, since they don't get to pick their treasure. Just as the organically made fighter might have weapon focus (longsword), but be wielding the trident +4 because that's what they found, the organically made wizard might well have lower optimized spells in their book than one built with a list of spells, price guide, and WBL budget.

Note that this is all theory. My groups never have, nor never will, use WBL. When we create new characters, the DM and players work together to come up with the appropriate gear, not some expected amount. The same is true of spellbooks.

Edit: ninja'd. As has been pointed out, the cost of a scroll being part of the WBL calculation was an assumption on my part, not part of the game rules. There's another interesting conundrum...

[Flickerdart]

As many as the player is willing to pay for. The negotiation is about the rate - do you charge full market for a scroll plus scribing costs? Creation cost + copying? Book access fee and scribing? Assume spell trading is a thing and only charge scribing? Those are all legitimate ways to determine cost of having a spell, and they'll all result in much differently sized spellbooks.
If we assume spell trading, we also have to assume that other characters can use other means of earning money, and then wizards can sell their spell services, and everyone else can make Profession checks, and at the end of the day starting wealth stops meaning anything. Requiring wizards to spend full scroll cost + scribing cost is the only fair way to do it.

[Psyren]

IMO this is the point of WBL - it gives the player starting above 1st level an impartial way to manage the expenditures their character would have made prior to that point. This includes a wizard's extra spells and gear.

The GM's only real decisions are (a) whether their campaign uses a level of wealth that is at, above, or below this benchmark, and (b) what portion of their alloted wealth the player is allowed to spend on extra spells (and of course, paying a fellow wizard for his scribing time/access to his books.) For (b), I treat the spells like a single item, i.e. the player can't spend more than 50% of their wealth on it, which again includes both the scribing cost for the spells themselves and the cost of another wizard's time/resources. I also require that the player equip their wizard first (e.g. AC-increasing items, headband of intellect, and any consumables like wands and scrolls) before being able to use what's left for extra spells.

If you don't enforce this, the player may show up naked with a ton of extra spells but quickly die.

[Flickerdart]

If you don't enforce this, the player may show up naked with a ton of extra spells but quickly die.
If you have players showing up naked to your games and then dying, you have bigger problems than WBL management. :smallamused:

[Psyren]

If you have players showing up naked to your games and then dying, you have bigger problems than WBL management. :smallamused:

Whoops, PC :smallbiggrin:

I'll leave that unedited to keep things funny.

[ryu]

There's also the fact that a person with a large number of spells known who knows what they're doing is unlikely to die naked or not.

[Gildedragon]

Heck a wizard with a large number of spells known will know one to summon clothes

[Psyren]

There's also the fact that a person with a large number of spells known who knows what they're doing is unlikely to die naked or not.

Precisely, and that's the whole point of gear - to help you deal with the stuff you don't know about, by having certain buffs up (like +saves, +AC and +Int) all the time, or access to very situational spells at a moment's notice via scrolls.

[ryu]

Precisely, and that's the whole point of gear - to help you deal with the stuff you don't know about, by having certain buffs up (like +saves, +AC and +Int) all the time, or access to very situational spells at a moment's notice via scrolls.

1: if you're buying scrolls to scribe you still have the scrolls afterwards last I checked.

2: Even at relatively low levels having means of escaping is a more efficient surprised panic button than most items anyway.

and 3: Through the power of divination and knowledge skills things the wizard doesn't know anything about are just a myth. He may not know precisely what he's dealing with for the next four days in a row, but he does know what to do in a situation.

and and 4: abrupt jaunt is a thing that exists.

[Psyren]

1: if you're buying scrolls to scribe you still have the scrolls afterwards last I checked.

Guess again:

"The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment."



2: Even at relatively low levels having means of escaping is a more efficient surprised panic button than most items anyway.

Items can help you survive long enough to escape. Even Elminster and Raistlin use them.



and 3: Through the power of divination and knowledge skills things the wizard doesn't know anything about are just a myth. He may not know precisely what he's dealing with for the next four days in a row, but he does know what to do in a situation.

Ah, the "Perfect Wizard" response. This must be why no wizards ever die or make mistakes, apparently. Including enemy wizards. :smalltongue:


and and 4: abrupt jaunt is a thing that exists.

It certainly is, but it's far from foolproof. You can't use immediate actions while flat-footed for instance.

[Zanos]

There are listed rules for the price of letting another wizard copy a spell out of their spellbook, which is usually much cheaper than the cost of a scroll. I haven't had any issues in the past with DMs letting me use that cost during character generation.

But yes, for whatever it's worth, wizards I DM for get their base spells and then however many more they're willing to spend gold on. For what it's worth @Psyren specifically, I've never personally nor had a player spend more than 50% of their starting gold on spells.

Also, yes, scrolls of situational spells where the caster level and save DC aren't very important can be extremely valuable and well worth their printed costs.

[Daefos]

1: if you're buying scrolls to scribe you still have the scrolls afterwards last I checked.

Afraid not.

If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

There is language that says that a scroll is retained after copying, but it explicitly refers to when the Spellcraft check to copy the scroll fails.

Swordsage'd.

[ryu]

Guess again:

"The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment."



Items can help you survive long enough to escape. Even Elminster and Raistlin use them.



Ah, the "Perfect Wizard" response. This must be why no wizards ever die or make mistakes, apparently. Including enemy wizards. :smalltongue:



It certainly is, but it's far from foolproof. You can't use immediate actions while flat-footed for instance.

This seems predicated on the idea that I think either of those two wizards are competent. They're not. They're easily killed by characters half their level. This is true of pretty much literally all the characters wotc prefabed. Further you don't have to be perfect to be prepared. You just have to make basic use of the tools your class is supposed to use. All knowledges are class skills, divination is the only school you literally cannot ban, and INT is your main stat in big obvious glowing letters. Use them.

[Flickerdart]

This seems predicated on the idea that I think either of those two wizards are competent. They're not. They're easily killed by characters half their level. This is true of pretty much literally all the characters wotc prefabed. Further you don't have to be perfect to be prepared. You just have to make basic use of the tools your class is supposed to use. All knowledges are class skills, divination is the only school you literally cannot ban, and INT is your main stat in big obvious glowing letters. Use them.

This assumes that there are no other beings with better tools or higher INT scores in the world. Or luckier beings.

[ryu]

This assumes that there are no other beings with better tools or higher INT scores in the world. Or luckier beings.

No it doesn't. You meet one of those you run. Case in point why I mentioned a focus on escape buttons as opposed to just winning all combats. Having a level appropriate escape plan that minimizes rolls is the optimal way of dealing with things you aren't prepared to actually deal with in a direct sense.

[Troacctid]

I generally assume that the price of a wizard's spellbook above and beyond the free spells from leveling up is a part of her standard wealth by level. If players are allowed to choose any items, then they're also allowed to choose any spells at the appropriate market value. If there are restrictions on the items they can start with, I assume there are similar restrictions on starting spells.

[Amphetryon]

I generally assume that the price of a wizard's spellbook above and beyond the free spells from leveling up is a part of her standard wealth by level. If players are allowed to choose any items, then they're also allowed to choose any spells at the appropriate market value. If there are restrictions on the items they can start with, I assume there are similar restrictions on starting spells.

Is "appropriate market value" the market cost of a scroll, or the cost of copying from another Wizard's spellbook, or some combination thereof? If it's a combination, is there a ratio where the Player has pushed beyond what you'd consider allowable?

Same question for others.

[Psyren]

This seems predicated on the idea that I think either of those two wizards are competent. They're not. They're easily killed by characters half their level. This is true of pretty much literally all the characters wotc prefabed. Further you don't have to be perfect to be prepared. You just have to make basic use of the tools your class is supposed to use. All knowledges are class skills, divination is the only school you literally cannot ban, and INT is your main stat in big obvious glowing letters. Use them.

Divination is not perfect either. It has several weaknesses, chief among them being that it's only as good as the specific questions you ask, and even when you pick exactl the right ones it can still fail. Furthermore, having a high INT does not make you immune to mistakes, biases or ego either.


No it doesn't. You meet one of those you run. Case in point why I mentioned a focus on escape buttons as opposed to just winning all combats. Having a level appropriate escape plan that minimizes rolls is the optimal way of dealing with things you aren't prepared to actually deal with in a direct sense.

So they're smarter than you, better prepared, even luckier - yet you can always perfectly evade/escape every time and engage only on your terms?

[ryu]

Divination is not perfect either. It has several weaknesses, chief among them being that it's only as good as the specific questions you ask, and even when you pick exactl the right ones it can still fail. Furthermore, having a high INT does not make you immune to mistakes, biases or ego either.



So they're smarter than you, better prepared, even luckier - yet you can always perfectly evade/escape every time and engage only on your terms?

That is what optimization in this system allows yes. If you can't beat it in an even fight you can attempt to prepare specifically for it. If you can't or haven't prepared for it you can get out cleanly and if not perfectly at least reliably unless it's so above your level it really shouldn't care you exist to begin with. This is assuming you don't go being one of those glory seekers who makes trouble with casters more powerful than you. You might be able to get away from that if they make a mistake or spare you, but I wouldn't count on it.

[Troacctid]

Is "appropriate market value" the market cost of a scroll, or the cost of copying from another Wizard's spellbook, or some combination thereof? If it's a combination, is there a ratio where the Player has pushed beyond what you'd consider allowable?
The market value of a spellbook, according to the rules, is 100 gp per page.

[Psyren]

That is what optimization in this system allows yes. If you can't beat it in an even fight you can attempt to prepare specifically for it. If you can't or haven't prepared for it you can get out cleanly and if not perfectly at least reliably unless it's so above your level it really shouldn't care you exist to begin with. This is assuming you don't go being one of those glory seekers who makes trouble with casters more powerful than you. You might be able to get away from that if they make a mistake or spare you, but I wouldn't count on it.

You don't always know if what you're doing is messing with a caster/being more powerful than you, and you don't necessarily have to be a "glory seeker" to cross them either. That's very often how stories/RPGs work; in fact, the DMG itself specifically states that a full 5% of your encounters can be completely out of your league, whether you willfully go looking for them or not. And even if they don't stomp you flat, well, they may end up "just" burning your village down or murdering your family/friends or your cherished mentor has to sacrifice himself to save you or whatever else. Not all consequences of your actions can be foreseen, even and perhaps especially the unfair ones, and not everything can simply be avoided unscathed.

And challenge of course brings us back to wealth, which the DMG further states is intended to include magic items. You can, if your DM allows it, spend every copper on filling your spellbook(s) if you wish - but if you get unintended consequences for playing the game this way, that's your own fault.

[Renen]

That is what optimization in this system allows yes. If you can't beat it in an even fight you can attempt to prepare specifically for it. If you can't or haven't prepared for it you can get out cleanly and if not perfectly at least reliably unless it's so above your level it really shouldn't care you exist to begin with. This is assuming you don't go being one of those glory seekers who makes trouble with casters more powerful than you. You might be able to get away from that if they make a mistake or spare you, but I wouldn't count on it.

Please... just stop...
Dont imply that you can perfectly evade things like higher level casters that want you dead. By the time THEY engage you on their terms, you cant move, cant teleport, cant use magic, and are probably a statue before your turn comes.

[ryu]

You don't always know if what you're doing is messing with a caster/being more powerful than you, and you don't necessarily have to be a "glory seeker" to cross them either. That's very often how stories/RPGs work; in fact, the DMG itself specifically states that a full 5% of your encounters can be completely out of your league, whether you willfully go looking for them or not. And even if they don't stomp you flat, well, they may end up "just" burning your village down or murdering your family/friends or your cherished mentor has to sacrifice himself to save you or whatever else. Not all consequences of your actions can be foreseen, even and perhaps especially the unfair ones, and not everything can simply be avoided unscathed.

And challenge of course brings us back to wealth, which the DMG further states is intended to include magic items. You can, if your DM allows it, spend every copper on filling your spellbook(s) if you wish - but if you get unintended consequences for playing the game this way, that's your own fault.

The problem with this setup is that the situation with an enemy so far above you that they can crush you without effort no shut up even then, is that actual items cease to be a meaningful defense as well. The simple, undeniable fact of the matter in this case is that the enemy has more spells, more items, more power, and just in general more resources than you. No item that you can buy is without counter several levels above it somewhere. Literally the only items I bother with are contingent spells, scrolls, the extremely rare item that has utility not just as a copy of a spell, and time saving items for buffs I could always have up anyway.

Renen: The entire point of that post was that more powerful casters than you can't be evaded. Not by items or spells. Everything else can though because magic is the most powerful force in this game and at the highest levels of optimization equal resources favors the defense/evasion.

[Renen]

So you are saying that an animated greatshield to block line of effect for you, or any number of +miss chance items are not worth buying? I mean, sure you can replicate them with magic, but good luck keeping up blink all day.

[AnimeTheCat]

One thing I've done that is not RAW in any way is limit my wizards to a single spellbook that travels with them. Spell books have 100 pages and each spell takes up a number of pages equal to its spell level. The rules say that cantrips take up one page each, I changed that to all your cantrips are on a single page because cantrips are kinda... cantrips ya know? After that, they need to manage their spells and which spells they pick up and at any time they can remove spells form their book to make room for new ones, not every 4 levels or whatever the wizard class description says. If they do that they lose the ability to cast that spell, unless they have Spell Mastery. It makes wizards make a tough choice as to how they want to grow.

[Gildedragon]

One thing I've done that is not RAW in any way is limit my wizards to a single spellbook that travels with them. Spell books have 100 pages and each spell takes up a number of pages equal to its spell level. The rules say that cantrips take up one page each, I changed that to all your cantrips are on a single page because cantrips are kinda... cantrips ya know? After that, they need to manage their spells and which spells they pick up and at any time they can remove spells form their book to make room for new ones, not every 4 levels or whatever the wizard class description says. If they do that they lose the ability to cast that spell, unless they have Spell Mastery. It makes wizards make a tough choice as to how they want to grow.

Your wizards or your PCs wizards? Cause one is an interesting challenge and the other is objectionable (for a number of reasons) DMing (if only because it limits PCs to 2 spells of each level... Rendering wizards vastly inferior to sorcerers)

[ryu]

So you are saying that an animated greatshield to block line of effect for you, or any number of +miss chance items are not worth buying? I mean, sure you can replicate them with magic, but good luck keeping up blink all day.

The problem with animated greatshields is that they're hilariously fragile in caster fights, can't be kept secret as easily as other methods of achieving the same thing, and worst of all is that unless you magic it further it's even vulnerable to simple conventional means.

I also prefer to deny the very concept of attack rolls to begin with. Easiest way of doing this at low level is dweomer vortex and friendly fire for non-magic projectiles, with abrupt jaunt for if people attempt to close to melee.

[Renen]

One thing I've done that is not RAW in any way is limit my wizards to a single spellbook that travels with them. Spell books have 100 pages and each spell takes up a number of pages equal to its spell level. The rules say that cantrips take up one page each, I changed that to all your cantrips are on a single page because cantrips are kinda... cantrips ya know? After that, they need to manage their spells and which spells they pick up and at any time they can remove spells form their book to make room for new ones, not every 4 levels or whatever the wizard class description says. If they do that they lose the ability to cast that spell, unless they have Spell Mastery. It makes wizards make a tough choice as to how they want to grow.

Whats the point of being a wizard if by level 14 you run out of spells you can have, and that's if you only learn the 2 per level.


The problem with animated greatshields is that they're hilariously fragile in caster fights, can't be kept secret as easily as other methods of achieving the same thing, and worst of all is that unless you magic it further it's even vulnerable to simple conventional means.

I also prefer to deny the very concept of attack rolls to begin with. Easiest way of doing this at low level is dweomer vortex and friendly fire for non-magic projectiles, with abrupt jaunt for if people attempt to close to melee.

Still... Saying that wizards dont need any items is simply ridiculous. There are plenty of times an item does something just as well as a spell would, except permanently, and without using a daily spell slot.

[ryu]

Whats the point of being a wizard if by level 14 you run out of spells you can have, and that's if you only learn the 2 per level.



Still... Saying that wizards dont need any items is simply ridiculous. There are plenty of times an item does something just as well as a spell would, except permanently, and without using a daily spell slot.

What you just mentioned falls under the category of buffs I could easily have up but save time by buying the item without wasting the time explaining the process of keeping the buffs up. It's convenient, but not necessary.

[Beheld]

1) It blows my mind that every time this subject comes up, more than zero people suggest that buying scrolls is the right price for this. Like, why do you think there is a specific price given for copying spells if not to measure the cost of copying spells?

2) If they are level 5 or higher, I assume they have Secret Page as one of their spells, so scribing costs don't exist, and I assume basically infinite spell trading for spells lower than their lowest level. So if a Wizard wants to have a 3rd level spell in his book, and he's level 7, then he can find some guy willing to trade EBT for whatever the 5th-205th most important 3rd level spell is. Spells at the highest level, I assume it averages out to one extra spell for each free spell. Additional spells of his highest level available, or of a higher level than his highest level, he has to spend the copying fee of 50gp per spell level (and then presumably Secret Page it).

[P.F.]

Whats the point of being a wizard if by level 14 you run out of spells you can have, and that's if you only learn the 2 per level.
By level 14 you can probably have the Boccob's Blessed Book with its tenfold increase to your spells known.



Still... Saying that wizards dont need any items is simply ridiculous. There are plenty of times an item does something just as well as a spell would, except permanently, and without using a daily spell slot.

QFT

[Zanos]

Still... Saying that wizards dont need any items is simply ridiculous. There are plenty of times an item does something just as well as a spell would, except permanently, and without using a daily spell slot.
I'd argue that Wizards are one of the classes that have an easier time if items aren't available, although perhaps not as easy as Druids. I would, of course, still rather have magic items than not on any character. VoP being awful pretty much proves that.

[ryu]

I'd argue that Wizards are one of the classes that have an easier time if items aren't available, although perhaps not as easy as Druids. I would, of course, still rather have magic items than not on any character. VoP being awful pretty much proves that.

Keep in mind I still use some items period. It's just that I view quite a lot of common picks as either an inefficient use of resources or low priory as compared to other stuff.

[Psyren]

Keep in mind I still use some items period.

Great, glad we cleared that up.

[ryu]

Great, glad we cleared that up.

Why this was confusing when I gave a list specifying what gets used earlier I'll never fully understand.

[Amphetryon]

The market value of a spellbook, according to the rules, is 100 gp per page.

Note the discrepancy between that market value and the preconstructed spellbooks in, for example, the d20PFSRD. Not saying you're wrong, but that the rules appear to give multiple prices for the same thing. Choosing which pricing system used becomes important.

On a related note, does a Wizard's presumed spellbook with the default minimum spells/level count against WBL? Is this true at 1st level, or only at higher levels? Why, or why not?

[Gildedragon]

Note the discrepancy between that market value and the preconstructed spellbooks in, for example, the d20PFSRD. Not saying you're wrong, but that the rules appear to give multiple prices for the same thing. Choosing which pricing system used becomes important.

On a related note, does a Wizard's presumed spellbook with the default minimum spells/level count against WBL? Is this true at 1st level, or only at higher levels? Why, or why not?

It is never true. A wizard's free spells on level up are part of their class features; if they counted against WBL so ought a sorcerer's spells known, or a fighter's bonus feats.

[Mr Adventurer]

Something I've never understood: Wizards have all cantrips in their spellbooks, yet new cantrips were published. As that happened, what did it mean for a wizard? Did the new cantrips suddenly appear in their spell books for free (taking up a valuable page that could otherwise have been used to hold a different spell)? What happens if a PC wizard researched a new cantrip themselves, did they inflict it on all other wizards' spell books?

[AnimeTheCat]

Your wizards or your PCs wizards? Cause one is an interesting challenge and the other is objectionable (for a number of reasons) DMing (if only because it limits PCs to 2 spells of each level... Rendering wizards vastly inferior to sorcerers)


Whats the point of being a wizard if by level 14 you run out of spells you can have, and that's if you only learn the 2 per level.


So, the whole idea stemmed as a way to not necessarily nerf wizards, because their versatility is one of the biggest draws to the class, but to limit them in to a distinct focus. You can in fact add literal pages to your spell book, so it simply increases the cost to learn spells. If the spell you would gain at any given level will put you over that limit of pages, you're granted the pages without having to pay for them. For instance, a wizard goes from level 12 to level 13. Of course that wizard is going to want to grab 2 level 7 spells during this level up. If a wizard with a starting Int score of 18 and has not scribed any scrolls to his/her spell book tries to do this, they will be short 3 pages of spell book to scribe their second spell. Those pages are automatically added to that wizard's spell book. If, later while still level 13, that wizard wants to add an additional 2nd level spell to their spellbook by scribing it from a scroll, they must pay the cost of the scroll and the additional pages in their spell book to be able to do so. If, for instance, the same starting wizard loads himself/herself down with so many second level spells from scrolls that by level 6 they're already at their max, when they level up to level 7 they will not be prevented from learning their by level "spells known" (Because I know wizards don't have a "spells known" section) and they will have the pages added in to the book.

It does not, and will never prevent a wizard from progressing organically in the class. I know I didn't explain that part and I am sorry, but I hope this kind of sheds light on my intention. The idea is to limit the list of spells a wizard can know, but not to prevent them from learning new ones as they please. It helps to prevent any one wizard from becoming God, even though that's how everyone and all their extended relatives wants to play a wizard. It gives other classes a chance. The point is, it gives a tiny help to the mundane characters which sorely need it, it adds a little extra work to the casters who don't really need anything or anyone else, at all, ever, because "I'm a wizard, that's why"... That sort of logic always made the fighter, who from levels 1-5 kept the wizard's weak little hind side, just seem worthless and unappreciated.

I have been a player in groups where the wizard had the kind of attitude that once we hit a certain level and he got some wands of decent spells, he just went out on his own. Effectively whenever we entered combat, my character (Fighter 2/Barbarian 5) just sat down and started drinking as his first action because he had nothing to contribute. In the words of that wizard (and player, in and out of game) "I don't need you and your sorry character is worthless to the party", completely forgetting that I saved all their sorry tails from countless encounters prior to that. Its the attitude and mindset of players and characters that they are some kind of minor (or in some cases major) deity and that they have no use for anyone past a certain point that I put this rule in place. In most cases, I don't really need to enforce it because the people I play with now understand about game balance and control and they contribute in ways that don't make other classes/players obsolete. I don't have fun when someone is playing "the perfect wizard" because then I don't get to do anything.

[Gildedragon]

[QUOTE=Renen;20896373]Whats the point of being a wizard if by level 14 you run out of spells you can have, and that's if you only learn the 2 per level.[QUOTE]


So, the whole idea stemmed as a way to not necessarily nerf wizards, because their versatility is one of the biggest draws to the class, but to limit them in to a distinct focus. You can in fact add literal pages to your spell book, so it simply increases the cost to learn spells. If the spell you would gain at any given level will put you over that limit of pages, you're granted the pages without having to pay for them. For instance, a wizard goes from level 12 to level 13. Of course that wizard is going to want to grab 2 level 7 spells during this level up. If a wizard with a starting Int score of 18 and has not scribed any scrolls to his/her spell book tries to do this, they will be short 3 pages of spell book to scribe their second spell. Those pages are automatically added to that wizard's spell book. If, later while still level 13, that wizard wants to add an additional 2nd level spell to their spellbook by scribing it from a scroll, they must pay the cost of the scroll and the additional pages in their spell book to be able to do so. If, for instance, the same starting wizard loads himself/herself down with so many second level spells from scrolls that by level 6 they're already at their max, when they level up to level 7 they will not be prevented from learning their by level "spells known" (Because I know wizards don't have a "spells known" section) and they will have the pages added in to the book. isn't this sorta equivalent to buying an extra spellbook? And doesn't have this innately counter the idea of just having the 100 pages to limit the wizard?


It does not, and will never prevent a wizard from progressing organically in the class. I know I didn't explain that part and I am sorry, but I hope this kind of sheds light on my intention. The idea is to limit the list of spells a wizard can know, but not to prevent them from learning new ones as they please.??? So can they have as many spells in their spellbook as they please or not? Are they limited to just the 100 pages of spells total (but able to rewrite pages, erasing old spells to accommodate new ones) or can they buy more pages? If the 100 page limit stands two things happen: they have on hand fewer spells than a sorcerer, have fewer spells than a sorcerer, and must prepare spells. In which case: one ought just play a sorcerer (or an easybake wizard) and save oneself the pain of a spellbook... Or the spell Secret Page becomes a must, and wands of it are a valued commodity among lower level wizards.
...I have been a player in groups where the wizard had the kind of attitude that once we hit a certain level and he got some wands of decent spells, he just went out on his own. Effectively whenever we entered combat, my character (Fighter 2/Barbarian 5) just sat down and started drinking as his first action because he had nothing to contribute. In the words of that wizard (and player, in and out of game) "I don't need you and your sorry character is worthless to the party", completely forgetting that I saved all their sorry tails from countless encounters prior to that. Its the attitude and mindset of players and characters that they are some kind of minor (or in some cases major) deity and that they have no use for anyone past a certain point that I put this rule in place. In most cases, I don't really need to enforce it because the people I play with now understand about game balance and control and they contribute in ways that don't make other classes/players obsolete. I don't have fun when someone is playing "the perfect wizard" because then I don't get to do anything.
this is problems with players, not the class.
In fact the "God" wizard's whole point is being a power multiplier for the party: buffing allies, hampering enemies, and setting things up so that allies' actions are more effective.
What you describe is someone that isn't a team player, and the wizard's versatility ephasizes thathe; but druids, clerics and artificers are just as bad if not worse, and you aren't hitting them with equivalent restrictions.

Allow wizards to have a ton of spellbook; heck let them use their spellbooks as scrolls in a time of dire need (they lose the spell and will need to re-research it).

[AnimeTheCat]

isn't this sorta equivalent to buying an extra spellbook? And doesn't have this innately counter the idea of just having the 100 pages to limit the wizard?

??? So can they have as many spells in their spellbook as they please or not? Are they limited to just the 100 pages of spells total (but able to rewrite pages, erasing old spells to accommodate new ones) or can they buy more pages? If the 100 page limit stands two things happen: they have on hand fewer spells than a sorcerer, have fewer spells than a sorcerer, and must prepare spells. In which case: one ought just play a sorcerer (or an easybake wizard) and save oneself the pain of a spellbook... Or the spell Secret Page becomes a must, and wands of it are a valued commodity among lower level wizards.
this is problems with players, not the class.
In fact the "God" wizard's whole point is being a power multiplier for the party: buffing allies, hampering enemies, and setting things up so that allies' actions are more effective.
What you describe is someone that isn't a team player, and the wizard's versatility ephasizes thathe; but druids, clerics and artificers are just as bad if not worse, and you aren't hitting them with equivalent restrictions.

Allow wizards to have a ton of spellbook; heck let them use their spellbooks as scrolls in a time of dire need (they lose the spell and will need to re-research it).

So, I'm not sure where our disconnect is, because you are right in everything you've said, I've just never seen it that way. The players in my games have never seen it that way either. Its an availability thing I guess... I'm not really sure. There are any number of things, but you're right on all of your points...

I guess I'm just hostile to wizards in general... My biggest problem is that just by the pure fact that the wizard can make any and every class pointless, if a player gets that in their head they will do it because most players (that I play with, possibly and probably not the ones you play with) are all about infinite power or "winning" at D&D and it ruins it for the rest of the group and then sets a standard that the wizard HAS to be played that way or "you're not a good wizard" or "you're playing wrong" and then there are just all around game problems being caused by perceptions and other out of game influences. Yes, the "God" Wizard is supposed to be a power multiplier, but when you (as a martial character focused in smashing things) don't even get to act in a combat because the wizard has simply made it cease that's really annoying. And it happens a lot. That's one thing that people use to describe why wizards are so awesome.

Again, You're right in all or your response, and I really respect you for bringing my eyes to a different focus. Maybe I'll have to retrain my mind and grow a bit, I'm not too old for that yet :smallbiggrin: