Help me salvage this Eldritch Disciple build

[Willie the Duck]

I am trying to make an interesting divine character. We are going to be playing in a drow campaign (everyone has an LA of +2, so we just ignore it). We have to choose drow deities (Lolth, Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, etc.). The game is relatively low-OP, including bans on DMM, and also the expectation that you aren't going to be buying wands of cure light wounds in every city, so figure out how you are going to be healing.

My initial thought was a simple high wis and str, low dex cleric of Selvetarm, domains of war and Divine Magician ACF. Feats would include weapon focus (heavy mace, from war domain), craft wand, holy warrior, and blade of force. By 12th level, he'd just keep his blade barrier spell uncast and be hitting at +10+str+magic for 1d8+str+magic+12.

That, however, is somewhat boring, requires tromping around in plate, and having few skills. So I got thinking about a glaivelock/cleric hybrid.

The build I'm thinking of is Cloistered Cleric of Vhaeraun 1-4/Warlock (Glaivelock as first invocation) 1/Eldritch Disciple 1-10/Mystic Theurge1-5. Put Str as a dump stat, and focus on wis, dex, and int. Take Knowledge devotion instead of Knowledge domain, and then keep trickery and travel domains for the class skills and spells to choose from. Feats would include Weapon Finesse, Combat Reflexes, Practiced Manifestor, Practiced Spellcaster, and eventually Quicken and Maximize SLA. This gives me a light and mobile character with cleric spellcasting of level-2, invocations of level-4 (but glaive damage of full level, thanks to practiced manifestor), and a truckload of skills like bluff, hide, survival, four knowledges, etc.

The thing is... what did this change get me? At level 12, I'll be attacking at touch attack +7+dex for 6D6 + whatever knowledge devotion brings in. Yes it is touch attack, and reach (but not 5' away as well, like a spiked chain). Also 3 least (one being Eldritch Glaive) and 2 lesser invocations, so I can probably fly and see invisibility. Mostly what I got was the ability to dump my strength stat in exchange for having to bump up my dex stat, a bunch of semi-useful knowledge skills, and the ability to use my main attack at anywhere past 5', instead of mostly just at 5' like I would have with a mace.

So my question is: am I misbuilding this character or missing out on the true value of the eldritch disciple, or is it just a lot of running around for some limited benefit? Thanks for your insights.

Also, would you change anything about either build? I'm looking for flavorful, effective, but non-cheesy.

[BowStreetRunner]

I've played an eldritch disciple once - until I ran into a bodak and failed a save, so I didn't get a chance to play it for very a long time :(. However, my build was focused on using fell flight to hover above the battlefield and snipe. I could alternate between using my eldritch blast offensively (with eldritch spear I could pretty much hit anything I could see) or to heal my allies with my healing blast. This was about the extent of both my offensive and healing capabilities - beyond that I had mostly buffs and utility spells/invocations.

[Psyren]

Did your DM houserule Warlock to qualify for Mystic Theurge? It doesn't ordinarily meet the requirement of being able to cast X-level arcane spells.

As for your general question, the main value of Eldritch Disciple is that the warlock half gives you an at-will magical fallback when your divine spells are running low, a powerful melee option even if your strength is weak (and which can be made even stronger with Wild Frenzy), it gives you access to abilities that are normally harder for clerics to get (e.g. flight, invisibility, and teleportation), and it also gives you a way to heal multiple allies at once without using spell slots, making in-combat healing slightly more viable. Eldritch Spellweave isn't terribly useful but if you can get high enough to add Vitriolic to your touch spells you can bypass spell resistance, which is nice. Corrupting Blast is also a nice debuff.

[Willie the Duck]

Did your DM houserule Warlock to qualify for Mystic Theurge? It doesn't ordinarily meet the requirement of being able to cast X-level arcane spells.

I haven't gone to the DM with anything yet. I just read Warlock and prestige classes section and said "oh, you use wizard PrCs even though you aren't really a wizard. neat mechanic!" Obviously I hadn't thought about the 2nd level spell mechanic. Interesting. Is there a way to keep advancing warlock after Finishing Eldritch Disciple?



As for your general question, the main value of Eldritch Disciple is that the warlock half gives you an at-will magical fallback when your divine spells are running low, a powerful melee option even if your strength is weak (and which can be made even stronger with Wild Frenzy), it gives you access to abilities that are normally harder for clerics to get (e.g. flight, invisibility, and teleportation), and it also gives you a way to heal multiple allies at once without using spell slots, making in-combat healing slightly more viable. Eldritch Spellweave isn't terribly useful but if you can get high enough to add Vitriolic to your touch spells you can bypass spell resistance, which is nice. Corrupting Blast is also a nice debuff.

Googling "3.5 wild frenzy" isn't turning up anything. What is this?
I have invisibility, flight and teleportation from travel and trickery domains (although the cleric of Selvetarm doesn't), and I can't use the healing blast ability, because all my deity choices are evil. Sounds like I'm just not able to capitalize on all the goodies. Hmm. Still a fun class idea, so I'm considering still doing it.

[Psyren]

I haven't gone to the DM with anything yet. I just read Warlock and prestige classes section and said "oh, you use wizard PrCs even though you aren't really a wizard. neat mechanic!" Obviously I hadn't thought about the 2nd level spell mechanic. Interesting. Is there a way to keep advancing warlock after Finishing Eldritch Disciple?

My preferred way is to ditch Cleric entirely and use Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium) instead. They cast both arcane and divine spells, so you can use them to qualify for Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge if you pick up turning somewhere (or use the ED adaptation that lets you drop the turning requirement.)

If you're set on cleric though, you'll need to get 2nd-level arcane casting in your build somehow, either for MT or ET.



Googling "3.5 wild frenzy" isn't turning up anything. What is this?

It's one of the Eldritch Disciple patron gifts. Requires you to be chaotic.



I have invisibility, flight and teleportation from travel and trickery domains (although the cleric of Selvetarm doesn't), and I can't use the healing blast ability, because all my deity choices are evil. Sounds like I'm just not able to capitalize on all the goodies. Hmm. Still a fun class idea, so I'm considering still doing it.

Domain spells are 1/day though, whereas invocations are at-will, so consider getting those moves from Warlock anyway.

[ILM]

I once toyed with Eldritch Disciple focusing on Corrupting Blast to create a no-save save debuffer that would soften up enemies for his teammates but to be honest, it never really got impressive. It went something like Hexblade 4/ Paladin of Tyranny 3/ Warlock 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Eldritch Disciple 10 if you really want to do the whole debuff thing, or Rogue 1/ Paladin 3/ Warlock 4/ U-P 2/ ED 10 for a little more oomph (Rogue is for sneak attack, then Sickening Strike/ Terrifying Strike/ Aleval School feats from DotU), or some variation thereof. It assumes that you can a) play a Ur-Priest, and b) that you can enter the class while worshipping a god, since technically being an unbeliever isn't a stated prerequisite (or find some other shenanigan to get around the ED's worshipping prerequisite). Either of these may not fly at your table.

Depending on feats and items it does allow you to inflict rather impressive Will debuffs to single enemies with little chance for them to avoid it, but in the end it feels like a gimmick rather than a build so I scapped the idea.

[Willie the Duck]

I've found that debuff builds in general really require some precision cooperation with the rest of your team such that they can lay down the correct effect on the person right when you hit someone with the debuff. In this low OP game, I just suspect it wouldn't be there when needed.

In FR at least, it's pretty common for Ur Priests to be worshippers of a god who is currently deceased (about half the drow pantheon at any given time). This could work, but other than the typical warlock 4/something with good fort save1/UP2/ED build, I'm not sure what I'd do with it. Maybe Warlock2/Duskblade3/UP2/ED. Can you channel through an Eldritch Glaive?

[Willie the Duck]

My preferred way is to ditch Cleric entirely and use Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium) instead. They cast both arcane and divine spells, so you can use them to qualify for Eldritch Disciple and Eldritch Theurge if you pick up turning somewhere (or use the ED adaptation that lets you drop the turning requirement.)

If you're set on cleric though, you'll need to get 2nd-level arcane casting in your build somehow, either for MT or ET.

I think my DM would rightly toss me out the window if I tried to introduce a Sha'ir into his low-OP campaign. For that matter, straight up clerics with all the cheese would be ethically questionable at that table, in my mind.

I'm actually not 'set on' cleric at all. The position I am in is:
1) Drow, evil, and Underdark-centric
2) someone has to both heal, and have status effect removal
3) I'd like to be able to contribute in ways other than my cleric spell list, so cleric spells and combat (not thru righteous might, divine favor, divine power), cleric spells and wizard utility spells, cleric spells and warlock zapping, bard spells but somehow also cure disease, break enchantment etc. at reasonable levels, spells and high skills and trapfinding, etc.

[Psyren]

If it's low-Op though, why does it matter that you can't advance both Warlock and Cleric any further? I'd probably just pick one or the other to advance after ED was finished and have at it in that case.

[Andry]

Maybe a cleric/rogue combo with either the Darkmask Prc or Eye of Lolth Prc?

[Troacctid]

Well it certainly makes no sense to take Eldritch Glaive as your first invocation, since it doesn't actually do anything until you have +6 BAB.

[BowStreetRunner]

The position I am in is:
1) Drow, evil, and Underdark-centric
2) someone has to both heal, and have status effect removal
3) I'd like to be able to contribute in ways other than my cleric spell list, so cleric spells and combat (not thru righteous might, divine favor, divine power), cleric spells and wizard utility spells, cleric spells and warlock zapping, bard spells but somehow also cure disease, break enchantment etc. at reasonable levels, spells and high skills and trapfinding, etc.

Have you looked at the Archivist (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061212) class from Heroes of Horror at all?

[Willie the Duck]

In order:

I really don't care about dual progression after lvl 15, I doubt we'll get that high.

I don't have lords of darkness for darkmask. Is it worth looking into?

Eye of lolth. hmmm.

Eldritch glaive does allow you to attack an enemy engaged in melee without taking two feats to get precise shot, so it has some value.

Archivist is iffy. If I play one, it'll be the only one in the DM's campaign world. It might be tough to fill out a significant book of spells. I'll look into it.

[Troacctid]

Eldritch glaive does allow you to attack an enemy engaged in melee without taking two feats to get precise shot, so it has some value.
Sure, you avoid the -4 penalty for Precise Shot and instead take an effective -4 penalty for attacking with your dump stat instead of your secondary stat. And it only works if you yourself are the one engaged in melee, since you can't move and use it. Not to mention that, as a cleric, it's not as if you don't have access to plenty of spells already that should serve you just fine in those situations.

If you're not using Divine Power, then the invocation simply isn't doing anything for you until level 11. Don't get me wrong, once you get there, it's pretty solid, and synergizes well with Healing Blast. But by no means should it be your first invocation—it's one you should be swapping in at a later level.

[Willie the Duck]

I should stipulate, no quickened or persisted divine power, not that I might not use it as a first round of combat action. But yes, you are right, I'm thinking of taking eldritch glaive because weapon finesse and combat reflexes sounds better than point blank shot and precise shot, and that's ridiculous.

I may be very complexly reinventing the wheel. I dislike the overpowered tier 1 CodZilla cleric for being able to do anything and everything, and that an optimized cleric is better at combat than most fighters--but then I want a character who has reasonably advancing cleric spell access (in theory so that the party has hp healing and disease/poison/petrification/curse/etc. removal), as well as something such as combat abilities which are actually worthwhile. Hmmm...

[Troacctid]

I should stipulate, no quickened or persisted divine power, not that I might not use it as a first round of combat action. But yes, you are right, I'm thinking of taking eldritch glaive because weapon finesse and combat reflexes sounds better than point blank shot and precise shot, and that's ridiculous.
If you're that desperate for a melee option, then take the Divine Magician ACF and use Chill Touch. It's 1d6/level damage, uncapped, out of a 1st level slot, plus Strength damage to boot.

Or just pick up a reserve feat—as supernatural abilities, they can freely be used in melee or even in a grapple, and their damage is comparable or superior to that of Eldritch Blast.

[Andry]

Darkmask isn't that great if you don't have access to Lords of Darkness I wouldn't really worry about it. I was just including it as a suggestion because of the flavor.

[Willie the Duck]

If you're that desperate for a melee option, then take the Divine Magician ACF and use Chill Touch. It's 1d6/level damage, uncapped, out of a 1st level slot, plus Strength damage to boot.

Or just pick up a reserve feat—as supernatural abilities, they can freely be used in melee or even in a grapple, and their damage is comparable or superior to that of Eldritch Blast.

Both are excellent ideas. What reserve feat works for a cleric (before 9th level, which is a long wait for a 5d6 flame strike powered burst?)? Invisible needle could work at 5th level with forceward I suppose.

[Troacctid]

Fiery Burst, Clap of Thunder, and Winter's Blast are the easiest to qualify for, although you need some obscure sources to get spells for Fiery Burst at every level. (Winter's Blast is very easy, though, thanks to the plethora of cold spells in Frostburn.) Invisible Needle also sort of works, but you can't pick it up as early, its damage output is a lot lower, and, being a ranged attack, it has all the same problems as Eldritch Blast.

[BowStreetRunner]

Archivist is iffy. If I play one, it'll be the only one in the DM's campaign world. It might be tough to fill out a significant book of spells. I'll look into it.

An archivist can learn spells from literally ANY divine caster. He gets cleric spells for his default spells when he gets a new level, but picks up all of his additional spells in the same way a wizard does. So Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Blackguard, and any other divine spell list is open to an archivist. And yes, an archivist can learn the spells at the level of the class from which he borrows them. So a Paladin's 1st level Lesser Restoration is available to an Archivist at that level, just not as one of his automatic spells.

The Dark Knowledge ability to give party buffs against monsters is a nice touch too.

Check out the Archivist Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=185.0).

[Willie the Duck]

Archivist looks interesting, but awfully similar to Cloistered Cleric. I'm not sure why one picks one over the other.

[BowStreetRunner]

Archivist looks interesting, but awfully similar to Cloistered Cleric. I'm not sure why one picks one over the other.

For me, it was Dark Knowledge + Knowledge Devotion. With those two abilities I found myself contributing a great deal even when I wasn't casting - I just sat back and attacked with a ranged weapon. Adding in Draconic Archivist and Archivist of Nature of course expands it to an ever wider range of enemies.

[Willie the Duck]

For me, it was Dark Knowledge + Knowledge Devotion. With those two abilities I found myself contributing a great deal even when I wasn't casting - I just sat back and attacked with a ranged weapon. Adding in Draconic Archivist and Archivist of Nature of course expands it to an ever wider range of enemies.

Two feats that ought to just be part of the class.

No, I see it now. It's a cool idea. It's like a lower combat cleric, but with something sorta like bardic abilities (non-spell buffing). It isn't one of the key components (ending combat, protecting the squishies, curing/removing negative effects, utility, vital skills) that I'm trying to grab 2-3 of, but certainly an interesting benefit. I'll have to explore the class further.